PDA

View Full Version : Central Sudanic peoples: their origin and genetics



zen
04-01-2022, 12:27 AM
I recently found out that most of the Great Lakes and other parts of east africa down to lake tanganyika was inhabited by Central-Sudanic speaking peoples before the Bantu speakers arrived. Central Sudanics are also found all the way in chad and nigeria so they seemed to have covered a vast area. How much Central Sudanic ancestry do you think Bantus have? Also what are the main haplogroups of Central Sudanic peoples48978489794898048981

zen
04-05-2022, 02:44 PM
It looks like they originated in the South Sudan and were more dominant there before Nilotic speakers migrated from the north. The Central Sudanics are thought by some linguists to have influenced the Atlantic-Congo languages noun classes. They also gave Many Bantus the knowledge of how to grow cereal crops in the dier east africa region.49066

zen
04-05-2022, 02:45 PM
They remind me of Celtic people in a way. Once very large and spread out but absorbed by most of their neighbors.

Angoliga
04-09-2022, 12:26 AM
How much Central Sudanic ancestry do you think Bantus have?

Difficult to know with any degree of certainty but with sufficient SNP-data perhaps qpAdm could help narrow-down that answer.

Using ADMIXTURE runs with Great-Lake Bantu pops and heavily Central-Sudanic NW-Ugandans, we might infer based on this Nilotic-like component (teal) a max upper-bound avg estimate of less than ~10% CS-contribution (*maybe less than <5% in actuality):

The problem is with ADMIXTURE it can be difficult to delineate components of similar ancestry -- so, in these runs, the Nilotic-affiliated component in Bantu could be derived from Central-Sudanic as easily as Luo-related or Southern-Nilotic -- in all likelihood, I'm guessing it's mostly the latter

https://i.imgur.com/oByk9Sk.png
Fig. 2 (Gouveia, 2019 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30849090/))


Here's another ADMXITURE run with Central-Sudanic Lugbara and Basoga (Ugandan Bantu) showing similar avg higher-k results :


https://i.imgur.com/qEadIp8.png
Fig. 3 (Mulindwa, 2020 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929720302378#fig3))





Also what are the main haplogroups of Central Sudanic peoples


Unfortunately, I don't think we have that level of specific ethno-linguistic resolution yet -- if you happen to find any though, please share

I haven't come across paternals specific to Central-Sudanics in over 6 years aside from some underwhelming low-resolution mtDNA sequences:




The mtDNA genetic relatedness between and within 13 Baganda, 14 Lugbara and 13
Acholi individuals from Uganda was investigated in this research program. The complete
mtDNA sequences of the 40 Ugandan samples were established and a phylogeographic
analysis of these sequences was conducted using both a Neighbour-Joining and a
Maximum Parsimony tree together with a global sample of 387 African sequences. Prior to
this study, only two complete and six partial mtDNA sequences of Ugandans had been
established.

A total of 563 polymorphisms were determined of which 276 were synonymous, 75 were
nonsynonymous, 26 were novel and 208 occurred in the control region. The Lugbara
sequences clustered more closely with the Acholi sequences than the Baganda
sequences within the Neighbour-Joining and Maximum Parsimony tree. A phylogeographic
analysis of the sequences demonstrated that the Acholi and Lugbara individuals in this
investigation originated from Southern Sudan while the Baganda samples had a diversified
origin which comprised of the Niger-Congo basin, Ethiopia and Sudan. Furthermore, the
clustering of the Ugandan sequences with sequences from African American and Hispanic
individuals was evidence of slave trade involving the shipping of people from Uganda to
North America.

"The mitochondrial DNA heritage of the Baganda, Lugbara and Acholi from Uganda", (Isabirye, 2010 (http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/4221))


The only other Central-Sudanic paternals I've come across has been from immediate-family and a few matches which has been somewhat illuminating but lacking in (n)# for any concrete generalizations.


If interested, here's a few posts (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17840-Great-Lakes(Africa)-peoples%92-23andme-results&p=586859&viewfull=1#post586859) with references to Kansyore Pottery culture and it's connection with Central-Sudanic pops & GL-LSA HGs:

(Kimabo, 2017)
(Mukhtār, 1990)

mpatsibihugu89
04-16-2022, 07:12 PM
I recently found out that most of the Great Lakes and other parts of east africa down to lake tanganyika was inhabited by Central-Sudanic speaking peoples before the Bantu speakers arrived. Central Sudanics are also found all the way in chad and nigeria so they seemed to have covered a vast area. How much Central Sudanic ancestry do you think Bantus have? Also what are the main haplogroups of Central Sudanic peoples


I have heard of such tales in the history of Rwanda and Burundi. People called 'Abarenge' who were known metal workers and furnaces all over these regions. Oral tradition doesn't mention anything about another language being spoken by our ancestors that isn't a GL bantu language which we speak now.

zen
04-29-2022, 02:33 PM
I have heard of such tales in the history of Rwanda and Burundi. People called 'Abarenge' who were known metal workers and furnaces all over these regions. Oral tradition doesn't mention anything about another language being spoken by our ancestors that isn't a GL bantu language which we speak now.

very interesting. They are still a modern clan now?49375

zen
04-29-2022, 03:07 PM
many Bantus in the great lakes also got the word for cow from central sudanics.(who themselves appear to have burrowed the word from eastern Sudanic peoples)
4937649378

zen
04-30-2022, 09:29 PM
im guessing they probabl would have had similar haplogroups to nilotic speakers since they originated in sudan like them (tho in different parts).

mpatsibihugu89
05-01-2022, 03:03 AM
Which book is this screenshot from?

Yes, Abarenge still exists. They were once a princely lineage from Abasinga clan and ruled most of modern rwanda. Descended from their eponymous ancestor "Rurenge". I also belong to the Basinga clan but a different lineage called 'Abagahe'. We entered Rwanda last in all the basinga subclans. The "-te" root for cow is more in use in lacustrine language in Uganda. Near Rwanda/Burundi/E.DRC we say "inka" for cow. The Bahima of Uganda say "Ente" which is what the author mentioned there. Bahima and batutsi are pretty much the same with similar clan and known blood relationships. Haplogroups , I am not sure. Lacustrine batutsi show around 40% E-m293, 33%E-m2,12%E-m75(xE-m54),11%A-m13. Bahutu groups in the lacustrine region are probably majority E-m2 I were to take a guess.

P.s: haplo % from a sample of 77 batutsi from the great lakes who tested w/ 23andme.

zen
05-06-2022, 12:28 AM
screenshot is from the book called Kings and Clans: Ijwi Island and the Lake Kivu Rift, 1780-1840, Volume 10
By David S. Newbury

zen
05-06-2022, 12:34 AM
Which book is this screenshot from?

Yes, Abarenge still exists. They were once a princely lineage from Abasinga clan and ruled most of modern rwanda. Descended from their eponymous ancestor "Rurenge". I also belong to the Basinga clan but a different lineage called 'Abagahe'. We entered Rwanda last in all the basinga subclans. The "-te" root for cow is more in use in lacustrine language in Uganda. Near Rwanda/Burundi/E.DRC we say "inka" for cow. The Bahima of Uganda say "Ente" which is what the author mentioned there. Bahima and batutsi are pretty much the same with similar clan and known blood relationships. Haplogroups , I am not sure. Lacustrine batutsi show around 40% E-m293, 33%E-m2,12%E-m75(xE-m54),11%A-m13. Bahutu groups in the lacustrine region are probably majority E-m2 I were to take a guess.

P.s: haplo % from a sample of 77 batutsi from the great lakes who tested w/ 23andme.

yes kinyarwandas inka for cow seems very different. They said it could probably come from "Sog people" who spoke kuliak related languages. Surprising to know Kuliak speakers had a larger range and were all the way down in rwanda as well.49459

zen
05-06-2022, 12:38 AM
im seeing sources saying kansyore pottery could have either been central sudanic or made by unkown hunter gatherers? the former seems highly more likely

zen
05-06-2022, 12:43 AM
Difficult to know with any degree of certainty but with sufficient SNP-data perhaps qpAdm could help narrow-down that answer.

Using ADMIXTURE runs with Great-Lake Bantu pops and heavily Central-Sudanic NW-Ugandans, we might infer based on this Nilotic-like component (teal) a max upper-bound avg estimate of less than ~10% CS-contribution (*maybe less than <5% in actuality):

The problem is with ADMIXTURE it can be difficult to delineate components of similar ancestry -- so, in these runs, the Nilotic-affiliated component in Bantu could be derived from Central-Sudanic as easily as Luo-related or Southern-Nilotic -- in all likelihood, I'm guessing it's mostly the latter

https://i.imgur.com/oByk9Sk.png
Fig. 2 (Gouveia, 2019 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30849090/))


Here's another ADMXITURE run with Central-Sudanic Lugbara and Basoga (Ugandan Bantu) showing similar avg higher-k results :


https://i.imgur.com/qEadIp8.png
Fig. 3 (Mulindwa, 2020 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929720302378#fig3))







Unfortunately, I don't think we have that level of specific ethno-linguistic resolution yet -- if you happen to find any though, please share

I haven't come across paternals specific to Central-Sudanics in over 6 years aside from some underwhelming low-resolution mtDNA sequences:





"The mitochondrial DNA heritage of the Baganda, Lugbara and Acholi from Uganda", (Isabirye, 2010 (http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/4221))


The only other Central-Sudanic paternals I've come across has been from immediate-family and a few matches which has been somewhat illuminating but lacking in (n)# for any concrete generalizations.


If interested, here's a few posts (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17840-Great-Lakes(Africa)-peoples%92-23andme-results&p=586859&viewfull=1#post586859) with references to Kansyore Pottery culture and it's connection with Central-Sudanic pops & GL-LSA HGs:

(Kimabo, 2017)
(Mukhtār, 1990)

i noticed many bantu speakers in the great lakes can be noticeably darker skinned than bantus elsewhere. Could that be a sign of more Central sudanic or kuliak influence? Look at Edward Ssekandi and Kiiza Besigye for example.

CopperAxe
05-06-2022, 11:38 AM
many Bantus in the great lakes also got the word for cow from central sudanics.(who themselves appear to have burrowed the word from eastern Sudanic peoples)
4937649378

I wonder if there is any archaeology behind it. It is pretty easy to point to the Cushitic, Nilotic and Bantu migrations in terms of archaeological imprints, but this is something I have never come across (in terms of archaeology). It certainly doesn't help that much of the archaeolgoy in Africa his highly underdeveloped...

zen
05-06-2022, 02:30 PM
I wonder if there is any archaeology behind it. It is pretty easy to point to the Cushitic, Nilotic and Bantu migrations in terms of archaeological imprints, but this is something I have never come across (in terms of archaeology). It certainly doesn't help that much of the archaeolgoy in Africa his highly underdeveloped...
there are some books that speak on it using archeological findings. like We Are What We Eat: Ancient Agriculture between the Great Lakes by
David L. Schoenbrun or Cattle herds and banana gardens: the historical geography of the western Great Lakes region,ca AD 800–1500 by David L. Schoenbrun.

zen
05-06-2022, 02:33 PM
Other central sudanic loanwords in Bantu languages (from the book We Are What We Eat: Ancient Agriculture between the Great Lakes by
David L. Schoenbrun)
49470

mpatsibihugu89
05-06-2022, 03:40 PM
yes kinyarwandas inka for cow seems very different. They said it could probably come from "Sog people" who spoke kuliak related languages. Surprising to know Kuliak speakers had a larger range and were all the way down in rwanda as well.49459

This is great. Thank you. Need to read this. In fact, Abarenge expanded from N.W rwanda according to oral history. Eastern Rwanda was dominated by other groups. The last dynastic clan of Rwanda (Abanyiginya) came from the East.

zen
05-06-2022, 04:24 PM
speech map of the great lakes before bantu languages dominated the area.
4947349474

Ronalawe
05-07-2022, 10:13 PM
49504 There is a clear increase of sudanese related dna amongst Bantu ethnic groups from South Eastern Africa (Malawi, Southern Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe..). Considering the lack of eurasian affinities, its not due to cushitic admixture . So it can only comes from either Nilotic or Central sudanic people.

zen
05-08-2022, 06:33 AM
49504 There is a clear increase of sudanese related dna amongst Bantu ethnic groups from South Eastern Africa (Malawi, Southern Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe..). Considering the lack of eurasian affinities, its not due to cushitic admixture . So it can only comes from either Nilotic or Central sudanic people.
Central Sudanic peoples were also possibly even in southern africa before bantus and this book believes they introduced animal husbandry (especially of sheep) to southern africa. Wow this language group was truly widespread. from west africa to southern africa.49505
49506

Ronalawe
05-08-2022, 07:17 AM
Central Sudanic peoples were also possibly even in southern africa before bantus and this book believes they introduced animal husbandry (especially of sheep) to southern africa. Wow this language group was truly widespread. from west africa to southern africa.49505
49506

Several evidences show the presence of Cushites/Nilo Cushites admixture and culture in southern Africa before bantus. Is this not contradictory ? These pastoralists may have been in contact with Central sudanic speakers before moving South or both were in Southern Africa then

zen
05-08-2022, 07:25 AM
Which book is this screenshot from?

Yes, Abarenge still exists. They were once a princely lineage from Abasinga clan and ruled most of modern rwanda. Descended from their eponymous ancestor "Rurenge". I also belong to the Basinga clan but a different lineage called 'Abagahe'. We entered Rwanda last in all the basinga subclans. The "-te" root for cow is more in use in lacustrine language in Uganda. Near Rwanda/Burundi/E.DRC we say "inka" for cow. The Bahima of Uganda say "Ente" which is what the author mentioned there. Bahima and batutsi are pretty much the same with similar clan and known blood relationships. Haplogroups , I am not sure. Lacustrine batutsi show around 40% E-m293, 33%E-m2,12%E-m75(xE-m54),11%A-m13. Bahutu groups in the lacustrine region are probably majority E-m2 I were to take a guess.

P.s: haplo % from a sample of 77 batutsi from the great lakes who tested w/ 23andme.

By the way where did you get the source for the tutsi haplogroups? The ones i have seen say 85% em-2(e1b1a1) and the rest haplogroup B

Ronalawe
05-08-2022, 07:40 AM
49507 In regard to their autosomal dna, they seem to all have at least 40% Niger Congo related dna and a significant percentage of Hunter gatherers(especially those from Uganda, South Sudan)

zen
05-08-2022, 08:01 AM
49507 In regard to their autosomal dna, they seem to all have at least 40% Niger Congo related dna and a significant percentage of Hunter gatherers(especially those from Uganda, South Sudan)
wow thats strange. Central sudanics did not originate anywhere near Niger congo speakers. And i would expect only the ones who have migrated to chad/cameroon and nigeria to have 40% nigercongo not the ones in Uganda and sudan

Gentica277282
05-08-2022, 09:20 AM
49507 In regard to their autosomal dna, they seem to all have at least 40% Niger Congo related dna and a significant percentage of Hunter gatherers(especially those from Uganda, South Sudan)

Can you quote the papers you are getting these numbers from please. I mean papers that are peer reviewed by the way

Ronalawe
05-08-2022, 09:28 AM
wow thats strange. Central sudanics did not originate anywhere near Niger congo speakers. And i would expect only the ones who have migrated to chad/cameroon and nigeria to have 40% nigercongo not the ones in Uganda and sudan

I think it's a mix of several streams . The first event happened during the early Holocene, Proto Nilotes and Central Sudanic received Atlantic West African admixture as the Sahara was greener(10-15%). Then Central Sudanic people expanded southward toward South Sudan,CAR where they assimilated Hunter gatherers(Pygmy, Mota..)and West African like people(probably Ubangian speakers) . The last event was the Bantu expansion which is likely to have pushed further Ubangian speakers toward South Sudan, Uganda and brought Bantu speakers in the great Lakes region.

Ronalawe
05-08-2022, 09:36 AM
Can you quote the papers you are getting these numbers from please. I mean papers that are peer reviewed by the way

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)/page3&highlight=Tutsi+genetic+rwanda I didn't get it from a paper but from this thread. These are PuntDNAL Gedmatch runs. In this same thread they were modeled as 73% Dinka, 15%Igbo on average, the rest being Mbuti, Kenya LSA, Mota and San so 40% is a stretch my bad. It's closer to 25% if we take into account the West African in Dinka.

zen
05-08-2022, 01:31 PM
speaking of that blench believes central sudanic inlfuenced the development of niger congo noun classes. How could this even be possible if Central sudanic and nigercongo originated Very far from eachother??
49514

Ronalawe
05-08-2022, 06:33 PM
speaking of that blench believes central sudanic inlfuenced the development of niger congo noun classes. How could this even be possible if Central sudanic and nigercongo originated Very far from eachother??
49514

Really good question. I think finding and testing ancient samples from West, Central and East Africa could help clarifying a lot of questions. Nilo Saharan groups are distinct to Niger Congo yet both cluster quite close and seem to be distantly related. Are these similarities in language between Niger Congo and Central Sudanic due to an influence as suggested or due to a common ancestor? Don't know

Tomenable
05-08-2022, 09:28 PM
Are these in Global25 ?

mpatsibihugu89
05-09-2022, 05:06 PM
By the way where did you get the source for the tutsi haplogroups? The ones i have seen say 85% em-2(e1b1a1) and the rest haplogroup B

I have been collecting haplogroups from privately tested batutsi on commercial DNA testing companies, mostly 23andme. So not peer reviewed data. I am skeptical of these papers because their data seems different than what I have observed. And that includes autosomal DNA as well. See below link to my first post. Haven't updated it though.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18014-Tutsi-Haplogroups-(Rwanda-Burundi-DRC-amp-Uganda)&p=591570#post591570

Sabz
05-11-2022, 09:19 AM
If we use g25 then most Bantu people from DRC, the Kindonki samples all the way down south have Sudanese in the estimates. Also, the words for cattle, live stock and some plants in Southern Africa are influenced by the Khoe and San people who do not have the sudanese in them but have cushitic ancestry similar to populations in Ethiopia.

Ronalawe
05-13-2022, 04:29 AM
If we use g25 then most Bantu people from DRC, the Kindonki samples all the way down south have Sudanese in the estimates. Also, the words for cattle, live stock and some plants in Southern Africa are influenced by the Khoe and San people who do not have the sudanese in them but have cushitic ancestry similar to populations in Ethiopia.

Even Cameroonian Bantu and Bantoid groups have this increased sudanese affinity compared to Yorubas so this admixture started all the way from the proto Bantu area. That's why it doesn't make sense to me to use Yoruba as a Bantu proxy in East and South Africa as most people do. They aren't representative of proto Bantu, this probable Central sudanic related dna seem to be found in all Bantus.

zen
05-13-2022, 07:05 AM
Even Cameroonian Bantu and Bantoid groups have this increased sudanese affinity compared to Yorubas so this admixture started all the way from the proto Bantu area. That's why it doesn't make sense to me to use Yoruba as a Bantu proxy in East and South Africa as most people do. They aren't representative of proto Bantu, this probable Central sudanic related dna seem to be found in all Bantus.

can your share your source on central sudanic mixture in cameroonian bantus? and proto bantus? could this be from the central sudanic peoples who migrated to cameroon?

Ronalawe
05-13-2022, 02:06 PM
can your share your source on central sudanic mixture in cameroonian bantus? and proto bantus? could this be from the central sudanic peoples who migrated to cameroon?

49569

49570

From a 2014 paper named "Genetic variation reveals large-scale population expansion and migration during the expansion of Bantu-speaking peoples" .
This figure shows how most ethnic groups surrounding the Lake Chad are genetically similar . Their dna is primarily made of two components: a green West African/Niger Congo one and a purple Central Sahelian one maximised in Nilo Saharan speakers around the Lake Chad(Saharan, Central Sudanic, Songhai?) + their neighbors regardless of their linguistic affiliation. Southern Sudanese Nilotes have their share of this ancestry correlating with their assimilation of Central Sudanic speakers following their entry in SS from their homeland South East of Khartoum(or from Sahelian gene flows) . From this area, the more South you go, the less prevalent this affinity is found as DRC Bantus have it way less than Adamawa Ubangians from CAR who themselves have it less than northern Cameroonians/southern Chadians. I haven't directly answered your question yet, Cameroonian Bantus and Bantoids weren't tested but we can already expect them to have it.

49566
Aghem and Bangwa are Bamileke subgroups, Bafut are Tikar subgroup and Bakoko are related to the Bassa and live just South of the two former Bantoid groups in the Littoral region. Some Dinka like dna is embedded in Kenya LSA so they have it even more than this model shows

49568
It's more visible in these runs.

I'm not sure if Proto Bantus have had a direct contact with Central Sudanic or Saharan speakers, it was probably mediated by Ubangians. Eastern Bantus might have came across them in the great Lakes region though as you already explained.

Gentica277282
05-17-2022, 03:03 PM
49569

49570

From a 2014 paper named "Genetic variation reveals large-scale population expansion and migration during the expansion of Bantu-speaking peoples" .
This figure shows how most ethnic groups surrounding the Lake Chad are genetically similar . Their dna is primarily made of two components: a green West African/Niger Congo one and a purple Central Sahelian one maximised in Nilo Saharan speakers around the Lake Chad(Saharan, Central Sudanic, Songhai?) + their neighbors regardless of their linguistic affiliation. Southern Sudanese Nilotes have their share of this ancestry correlating with their assimilation of Central Sudanic speakers following their entry in SS from their homeland South East of Khartoum(or from Sahelian gene flows) . From this area, the more South you go, the less prevalent this affinity is found as DRC Bantus have it way less than Adamawa Ubangians from CAR who themselves have it less than northern Cameroonians/southern Chadians. I haven't directly answered your question yet, Cameroonian Bantus and Bantoids weren't tested but we can already expect them to have it.

49566
Aghem and Bangwa are Bamileke subgroups, Bafut are Tikar subgroup and Bakoko are related to the Bassa and live just South of the two former Bantoid groups in the Littoral region. Some Dinka like dna is embedded in Kenya LSA so they have it even more than this model shows

49568
It's more visible in these runs.

I'm not sure if Proto Bantus have had a direct contact with Central Sudanic or Saharan speakers, it was probably mediated by Ubangians. Eastern Bantus might have came across them in the great Lakes region though as you already explained.

I wouldn’t use the reduce to 3 populations feature it’s quiet restrictive and inaccurate

Ronalawe
05-17-2022, 06:36 PM
I wouldn’t use the reduce to 3 populations feature it’s quiet restrictive and inaccurate

Why not ? And how is it restrictive and inaccurate ?

zen
05-20-2022, 01:52 AM
Which book is this screenshot from?

Yes, Abarenge still exists. They were once a princely lineage from Abasinga clan and ruled most of modern rwanda. Descended from their eponymous ancestor "Rurenge". I also belong to the Basinga clan but a different lineage called 'Abagahe'. We entered Rwanda last in all the basinga subclans. The "-te" root for cow is more in use in lacustrine language in Uganda. Near Rwanda/Burundi/E.DRC we say "inka" for cow. The Bahima of Uganda say "Ente" which is what the author mentioned there. Bahima and batutsi are pretty much the same with similar clan and known blood relationships. Haplogroups , I am not sure. Lacustrine batutsi show around 40% E-m293, 33%E-m2,12%E-m75(xE-m54),11%A-m13. Bahutu groups in the lacustrine region are probably majority E-m2 I were to take a guess.

P.s: haplo % from a sample of 77 batutsi from the great lakes who tested w/ 23andme.

Ah yes i found the source. The word INKA in kimyarwanda/Kirundi meaning cow comes from Sog eastern sudanic (Kuliak languages). I thought it would be southern cushitic.
49658