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Mithridates VI Eupator
05-25-2022, 08:54 AM
Merhabalar.

Bu konularla çok uzun süredir ilgili değilim. Merak ettiğim bazı konular ve benim kendi çıkarımlarım var özellikle Proto-Türkler ve Türk urheimatı ile alakalı. Malum bizlerin bildiği, yazılı kaynakların kısıtlılığından dolayı Asya Hunlarının gerisine pek gitmiyor. Üstelik yazılı kaynaklar dışında kalan unsurlar konusunda da gizem ve belirsizlik söz konusu. Bize çoğunlukla anlatılmış olan şey Türklerin Altaylardan geldiği, oraya da Moğolistan steplerinden geldikleri. Bu belirli Türk grupları için değişiyor tabii ki ama yapılan açıklamanın yetersizliği ve kafa karıştırıcılığını anlamak için genetik bilmeye de gerek olmadığını düşünüyorum.

En eski Türk örneklerinde Dodecad K12B hesaplayıcısını örnek alırsak Gedrosia ve North European bileşenleri neredeyse Doğu Avrasya bileşenleri kadar ana komponent olarak görülüyor. R1B, J2 gibi Kafkas steplerinden Yamnaya göçüyle gelmiş olabilecek haplogruplar var sık sık. Fakat zaman içerisinde Hunların yıkılıp Moğol ve Tunguz baskın kabilelerin stepi ele geçirip yeni bozkır imparatorlukları kurması Türk örneklerinde Doğu Avrasya'nın yükselmesini sağlamış. Üstüne bir de Uygurların kendi bozkır imparatorluklarında yerleşik hayata geçip bozkırı nispeten boş bırakıp Karahitay ve Moğolların orada iyice yer tutmasını sağlayıp sanki Moğol istilası ile birlikte Asya'nın heterojen yerlerinin daha da Doğu Avrasyalılaşması tamamlanmış gibi.

Tabii bu bilgiler sizler için muhtemelen yeni değil. Benim için de pek yeni değil ama benim kafamda canlanan bir şey var. Bunun doğru olup olmadığı, yanlışsa ne kadar yanlış olduğunu bilmek istiyorum.

Ben düşünüyorum ki Orta Asya'ya tam aksi yönden batıdan geldi proto Türkler. Ural dağlarının doğusu olabilir. Ural dağları Türk mitolojisinde hatırı sayılır bir yere sahip. Altay bölgesine hatta Moğolistan steplerine girdiler ve bölgedeki Doğu Avrasyalı insanlar üzerinde azınlık baskınlığı kurmuş olabilirler. İsimleri bu şekilde bize ulaşmış olabilir. Dilleri de. Buna sebep olan şeyin Yamnaya göçü olduğunu düşünebiliriz belki. Ural'ın doğusundaki insanlar bu sıkıntı verici durumdan kaçmış olabilirler. Çin kaynakları Türkler konusunda çok fazla ihtilafa düşüyor. Çin yazı karakterlerinin bulunması takiben yazılmış erken Çin tarihlerinde Türklerin ataları olduğu düşünülen kabilelerden "Uzak ülkeden gelme insanlar" olarak bahsediliyor.

Göktürk döneminde yazılanlarsa ilginç. Standart bir Türk tarifi yok. Sui veya Tang kitaplarında böyle. Birisi Çinlilerden çok farklı görünüşte tarif ederken, diğeri Çinliler ile benzerlik kuruyor. İki eserin yazılma aralığı çok kısa. Üstelik bildiğimiz kadarıyla Türk toplumunda da soylu azınlık ve halk tabakasının ayrılması durumu var. Sarı-Kara şeklinde. Sarı Türgişler, Kara Türgişler, Sarı Oğurlar, Kara Oğurlar, Sarıkeçili, Karakeçili gibi. Göç sonucu varılan yerdeki insan topluluğu etnisitesini kaybedip Türkleşse bile çekirdek grup ile halk tabakasını ayıran bir tanımlama geleneği sürmüş. Haplogruplardan anladığımız kadarıyla belirli bir yüzdelik ağırlık oluşturabilecek kadar baba soyu da var batıdan gelme.

Benim sormak istediğim soru kısaca Proto-Türk kültürü Urallardan veya daha batıdan gelmiş olabilir mi? Bildiğimiz eski Türk örnekleri heterojen özellikler barındırabilirken ve zamanla Asyalılık artmışken(Tekrar batıya gelmelerine rağmen) Proto-Türk olarak tanımlayabileceğimiz dilini Asya içlerine getirmiş olan grup Batı-Avrasya özellikleriyle baskın olabilir mi(Hun dönemi birçok örneğinde halihazırda baskın) bu akla bir noktada Botai Kültürünün bir proto Türk kültürü mü olduğunu da getiriyor. Bu işe çok daha fazla kafa yormuş birinden detaylıca dinlemek isterim.

chum
05-25-2022, 01:01 PM
Bildiğime kadar Proto-Türk kültürü en olası Erken Demir Çağı Moğolistan'ından Levha Mezarı kültürüdür, Eski Türk örneklerindeki Batı Avrasya mirası ise Hint-İran (örnek olarak Soğdlar ya da Sarmatlar) halklardan gelir, Botai kültüründen miras kalmadı. Modern Türkîler ise bu genellikle Levha Mezarı + Soğd/Sarmat olarak modellenebilen Eski Türk (ve bunlar arasında DA oranında çeşitlilik var) nüfuslarının diğer halklarla (Çin-Tibet halkları, Moğol halkları, Ural halkları, vs.) etkileşime girmesi ile oluştu.

49751
Üst resimdeki model:

Levha_Mezarı:Slab_Grave,0.0266673,-0.4339938,0.0804346,-0.0293007,-0.0707605,-0.0453994,0.0133621,0.0212298,0.0123299,0.0173514,-0.0387529,-0.0022266,-0.0009449,-0.0005112,0.0005235,-0.0025098,-0.0003445,-0.0030587,0.0010955,0.0178746,-0.0259899,0.0011217,-0.0206266,-0.0059129,0.0021298
Sarmat:Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe,0.1115467,0.04 73917,0.0349467,0.065246,-0.0283642,0.0267272,3.92e-05,0.001,-0.0299627,-0.036599,-0.0038432,-0.003072,-0.003419,-0.025162,0.0197472,0.0128393,-0.0027163,-0.0023648,-0.0046928,0.001709,-0.0106478,0.0048843,0.0001437,0.0066473,0.0030537
Sarmat:Sarmatian_KAZ,0.1064245,0.0568695,0.0280955 ,0.0628235,-0.0246195,0.021893,0.006345,-0.000808,-0.035485,-0.038725,-0.006414,-0.0004495,0.0002975,-0.0214,0.026058,0.01074,-0.0120605,0.002027,-0.0035825,0.000125,-0.0059895,0.002535,0.0010475,0.000904,-0.0059275
Soğd:KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity,0.0970345,0.0619472,-0.020836,0.0408595,-0.043008,0.021823,0.001645,-0.005019,-0.029963,-0.0279735,0,-0.0046832,0.0030105,-0.0181318,0.015913,0.0188608,-0.001858,-0.0010135,0.0023252,-0.0094107,-0.005459,-0.0047605,6.15e-05,0.0008132,0.0041612
Soğd:KAZ_Kangju,0.1005438,0.0499302,0.015839,0.046 835,-0.0333907,0.018128,0.0029375,0.0015385,-0.0258383,-0.032529,-0.0053315,-0.003347,0.000347,-0.0217213,0.0182543,0.0171262,-0.0010215,-0.0001268,-0.0012777,-0.0039602,-0.008901,0.0008243,0.0008422,0.0032132,-0.0020358
KAZ_Botai,0.102441,-0.0832737,0.0902577,0.1761437,-0.082169,0.0394163,-0.0436337,-0.050613,-0.029247,-0.081338,0.027281,-0.0073933,0.0240333,-0.0694997,0.0219413,0.0205953,-0.011604,-0.00114,0.0001677,-0.002835,-0.0347723,0.017765,0.023787,0.0040567,-0.0082623
RUS_Okunevo_BA,0.0811396,-0.1587129,0.0783604,0.0976153,-0.0768276,0.0059962,-0.0243235,-0.0298009,-0.0249958,-0.0504794,0.0065421,-0.0038751,0.0104169,-0.0411982,0.0147644,0.0086847,-0.0070129,-0.002181,0.0022447,0.0055026,-0.0266762,0.0111376,0.0120784,0.0075483,-0.0061755

49752
Üst resimdeki model:

Orta_Çağ_Türkü:KAZ_Karakhanid,0.065638,-0.1736557,0.0275297,0.005168,-0.0478037,-0.0065073,0.0060317,0.0012307,-0.0116577,-0.0121493,-0.017484,-0.004496,0.0026263,-0.009909,0.009772,0.004552,-0.0069973,0.000718,0.002053,0.0020427,-0.012894,0.003215,-0.0048477,-0.0045787,-0.00475
Orta_Çağ_Türkü:KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
Orta_Çağ_Türkü:KAZ_Kimak,0.080814,-0.140143,0.043746,0.027455,-0.050471,-0.011435,0.00376,0.000462,-0.020043,-0.018224,-0.007632,-0.003147,-0.006244,-0.002064,0.008822,0.007425,-0.019558,0.005448,-0.003142,-0.027013,-0.02533,-0.010387,-0.001479,-0.010363,0.001317
Orta_Çağ_Türkü:KAZ_Kipchak,0.0705705,-0.1269415,0.0273415,0.0046835,-0.039546,-0.00502,0.00564,0.013961,-0.003784,-0.007836,-0.012991,0.000225,0.0037165,-0.005092,0.000746,0.010607,0.007497,-0.0023435,0.005845,0.005065,-0.0101695,0.000742,-0.0027115,0.0013255,-0.002455
Orta_Çağ_Türkü:KAZ_Turk,0.0774,-0.0873355,0.0254555,0.0150195,-0.025543,0.00251,0.0048175,0.0077305,-0.0172825,-0.009385,-0.019568,-0.0029225,-0.0030475,-0.010735,0.0007465,0.0057675,-0.00013,0.001457,0.003331,0.000438,-0.005116,0.0059355,-0.005608,-0.0006025,0.002874
Orta_Çağ_Moğolu:MNG_Late_Med_Mongol,0.0396913,-0.3842632,0.0761784,-0.0308517,-0.0616987,-0.0388288,0.0170725,0.0212001,0.0047633,0.0135442,-0.0320848,-0.0004157,-0.0023451,0.0049854,0.0025348,0.0022583,-0.0003491,-0.0010462,0.0059037,0.0155397,-0.017284,-0.0127602,-0.0223754,-0.0027675,-0.0019545
Batı_İranî:Iranian_Zoroastrian,0.0916275,0.1077846 ,-0.0632191,-0.0225219,-0.045365,0.0040439,0.0018586,-0.005318,-0.028373,-0.0168403,-0.0002509,0.000361,0.0043652,-0.0049418,0.0071253,0.0135542,-0.0035262,0.002885,0.0017313,-0.0087712,-0.0032216,-0.0037657,0.0006777,-0.003489,0.0053669
Çin-Tibet:CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA,0.01935,-0.4468328,0.0097298,-0.0624682,0.0519482,0.0227016,0.00611,0.0024,-0.0134574,0.0046288,-0.0819736,-0.0089022,0.009544,-0.0082574,-0.0056188,-0.002095,0.0014602,0.0022552,-0.0039972,-0.0096546,0.0139754,0.0101396,0.0114128,-0.0056634,0.0016044
Çin-Tibet:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA,0.0258,-0.4458177,0.010308,-0.0622313,0.0420593,0.0190577,0.004857,-0.000846,-0.0067493,0.0095367,-0.0801117,-0.009092,0.0137263,-0.0054593,-0.0126673,-0.001149,0.005128,-0.00152,-0.0018437,-0.0074203,0.0062807,0.010428,0.0073123,0.000241,0. 007504
Doğu_İranî:PAK_Udegram_MA_Ghaznavid,0.079107,0.036 0515,-0.0727845,0.0463505,-0.060473,0.0340245,0.0055225,-0.0002305,-0.0157485,-0.017859,-0.004222,-0.002098,-0.0037165,-0.005436,0.01364,0.015513,0.0031945,0.000697,0.004 588,-0.008504,-0.0053655,-0.0005565,0.006039,0.0011445,-0.0002995
Doğu_İranî:KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity,0.0970345,0.061947 2,-0.020836,0.0408595,-0.043008,0.021823,0.001645,-0.005019,-0.029963,-0.0279735,0,-0.0046832,0.0030105,-0.0181318,0.015913,0.0188608,-0.001858,-0.0010135,0.0023252,-0.0094107,-0.005459,-0.0047605,6.15e-05,0.0008132,0.0041612
Doğu_İranî:KAZ_Kangju,0.1005438,0.0499302,0.015839 ,0.046835,-0.0333907,0.018128,0.0029375,0.0015385,-0.0258383,-0.032529,-0.0053315,-0.003347,0.000347,-0.0217213,0.0182543,0.0171262,-0.0010215,-0.0001268,-0.0012777,-0.0039602,-0.008901,0.0008243,0.0008422,0.0032132,-0.0020358

Mithridates VI Eupator
05-25-2022, 10:27 PM
Teşekkürler açıklama için. Peki şöyle bir soru yönelteyim. Dedim ya Proto-Hint Avrupalıların gelişi ile yerlerinden edilmiş olabilir ve doğuya ulaştıklarında azınlık baskınlığı kurmuş olma ihtimali dahilinde bir düşünceydi. Bu kadar erken bir dönemden bahsettiğimiz için bu teorik grubun otozomal bileşenleri zamanla yok olmuş olamaz mı nüfus olarak baskın grubun içinde?

Khövsgöl örneği de proto-Türklerin yönetici sınıf olduğu topluluğun protosu olamaz mı mesela? Tabii ki bunları net bir şekilde ifade edebilmek için kanıt lazım, daha çok test lazım ama sizin de kafanızda canlanan Ön-Türk teorisi Güney Sibirya veya Doğu Moğolistan'dan mı başlıyor?