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mnd
05-29-2014, 09:24 AM
Unlike Cyprus, which I created a thread for here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2605-Cyprus-Y-DNA-Distribution), there is plenty of data available on Lebanese Y-DNA haplogroups. However, though the papers do breakdown the haplogroup distribution by some religions and sects, I couldn’t find a comprehensive example of what I was looking for (e.g. I found nothing on the haplogroup distribution in Sunnis vs Shias).

I have collated all the data found in Zalloua et al. 2008 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/) and Haber et al. 2010 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062011/), though I did not come to the exact same numbers the authors had. A few of the samples did not yield results, some I had to predict using Whit Athey’s Haplogroup Predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm) (including only those which had a 95%+ chance of belonging to one haplogroup) and a few I omitted on the basis they were not of Lebanese origin – Assyrians and Armenians.

This is the distribution I came to by sect:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y489/mnd_6/bysect_zps4ec0e061.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mnd_6/media/bysect_zps4ec0e061.jpg.html)

This is the distribution I came to by religion, including Catholics and other minor or unlisted denominations for the Christians, and a single non-specified Muslim sample:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y489/mnd_6/byrel_zps8fea09f7.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mnd_6/media/byrel_zps8fea09f7.jpg.html)

I excluded the Druze from the Muslims on the basis of their historical peculiarity.

AJL
05-29-2014, 04:07 PM
Since "Other" far outsrips R2 and C, it would be useful to know how this breaks down. I would guess H must be a significant portion?

A point:

You appear not to be counting Greek Catholics, who are 5% of the population, and other Christians, who are an additional 3%.

And another:

By counting Shia and Sunni you are also counting many people not of Lebanese origins (Mamluks, Iranians, Gulf Staters, etc.). It would be less misleading to count everyone.

mnd
05-29-2014, 04:30 PM
Since "Other" far outsrips R2 and C, it would be useful to know how this breaks down. I would guess H must be a significant portion?
"Other" mostly consists of various types of E and R that can't be (or haven't been) categorised into any of the main branches I included in the table.


A point:

You appear not to be counting Greek Catholics, who are 5% of the population, and other Christians, who are an additional 3%.
The Greek Catholics and other minor Christian denominations are included in the Christian population of the second table. I didn't include the Greek Catholics in the first table as I could only find data for 40 individuals, and far fewer for the smaller Christian denominations.



By counting Shia and Sunni you are also counting many people not of Lebanese origins (Mamluks, Iranians, Gulf Staters, etc.). It would be less misleading to count everyone.
The papers I cited above state that the individuals they sampled had confirmed at least three generations of paternal ancestry in Lebanon. The number of Armenians and Assyrians, who I discounted on the basis that it could reasonably be expected that their ancestry stems from outside Lebanon within recent times, would have been far too small to reasonably compare them to the religious denominations shown above.

Humanist
05-29-2014, 04:36 PM
The papers I cited above state that the individuals they sampled had confirmed at least three generations of paternal ancestry in Lebanon. The number of Armenians and Assyrians, who I discounted on the basis that it could reasonably be expected that their ancestry stems from outside Lebanon within recent times, would have been far too small to reasonably compare them to the religious denominations shown above.

If I recall correctly, there were only 2 Assyrians in the Zalloua dataset(s). And, you are correct. Their ancestry would have most likely originated from outside Lebanon.

AJL
05-29-2014, 10:37 PM
"Other" mostly consists of various types of E and R that can't be (or haven't been) categorised into any of the main branches I included in the table.

Thanks -- the E may be in part E1a or E2, while the R is probably R2 or R2 split with early R1b1 subclades such as V88. There may also be DE and F, both of which have been found in the Levant/West Asia. Even so that's not that large a margin of error for E1b or R1b -- much more so for R2, which could potentially be quite underreported.

Agamemnon
05-29-2014, 11:37 PM
I strongly suspect the coastal Levant must've been largely J2a during the Bronze Age, the Lebanese J2 frequencies seem to suggest this as well.

AJL
05-30-2014, 12:39 AM
I strongly suspect the coastal Levant must've been largely J2a during the Bronze Age, the Lebanese J2 frequencies seem to suggest this as well.

And then there is Zalloua's paper on J2a as a potential Phoenician trace, which he might have overstated though the idea does have merit.

Mher
01-04-2016, 12:17 PM
Have you haplogroup of alawits?

ADW_1981
01-04-2016, 02:00 PM
I excluded the Druze from the Muslims on the basis of their historical peculiarity.

Good work, but I don't understand the reasoning behind this statement. Seems biased.

ie: European Christians have incorporated many Pre-Christian traditions into their religion, but they are still Christian.

drobbah
01-04-2016, 02:30 PM
Which subclades of E1b1b are most commonly found among the Lebanese?

Odyss
01-05-2016, 01:38 PM
Greek-Catholics (Melkites from Syriac Melka ´king ' ) are a branch of the Greek-Orthodox church of Antioch which recognized the Pope in the 18th and thus became Catholic but conserved same customs as the Orthodox. You'll find them especially in Lebanon and Syria. I guess the Maronites are a more peculiar subgroup as they branched off from the Orthodox earlier , they started off as a Syriac ( Assyrian?) community in north Syria and Antioch and spread to Lebanon under the Jacobite pressure where they are now a majority of all Christian denominations.

Odyss
01-05-2016, 01:44 PM
Which subclades of E1b1b are most commonly found among the Lebanese? Various ones. I haven't checked but the most dominant is probably EM123 which is typical/native of the Levant.

Afshar
08-05-2017, 07:48 PM
Is there any explanation for the relatively high Q among shiites?

IronHorse
06-15-2018, 12:24 AM
5% of haplogroup I is still high in any area of the Middle East, I wonder which subclade? it can't all be Crusader I1.

Lupriac
08-17-2018, 05:23 PM
Great post, Thanks!

It's also interesting to see that E1B1 is somewhat common among us Shiites. Is E1B1 linked to Qahtanite Yemeni tribes? Do they show distinct genetic patterns from Adnanites?

And since J1 which is more related to population of Arabia was more present in Shiites than any other communities. Even though I don't have any information about my haplogroup, however my father's family claimed we are from Quraysh (J1-L859). My family is from the North, and we Shiites tend to be rare there. Hope my father's family was right!

I will most certainly take a Y-DNA test and would update you guys later. Here's what I have estimated:

65% J1
20% J2
10% E1B1
5% Other haplogroups (K2, T, L, Q etc..)

Unfortunately I don't think I can take it this month. I think I will be able at the next summer or sometime at 2019 to generalize.

KingofPhoenicia001
08-21-2018, 10:24 PM
Great post, Thanks!

It's also interesting to see that E1B1 is somewhat common among us Shiites. Is E1B1 linked to Qahtanite Yemeni tribes? Do they show distinct genetic patterns from Adnanites?

And since J1 which is more related to population of Arabia was more present in Shiites than any other communities. Even though I don't have any information about my haplogroup, however my father's family claimed we are from Quraysh (J1-L859). My family is from the North, and we Shiites tend to be rare there. Hope my father's family was right!

I will most certainly take a Y-DNA test and would update you guys later. Here's what I have estimated:

65% J1
20% J2
10% E1B1
5% Other haplogroups (K2, T, L, Q etc..)

Unfortunately I don't think I can take it this month. I think I will be able at the next summer or sometime at 2019 to generalize.

The E1b1 in Lebanese Shia (and most other Lebanese) are typically native subclads, such as E-M34. Also I do not trust this chart since it does not correlate with official numbers I have seen previously, with no offense to the creator. The image I attached is more credible (Haber/Zalloua paper) and more interesting since it divides Lebanese by sect and location. You might even see how some similarities between groups correlate with historical events. Anyways you can see that most haplogroups are native which is supported by autosomal results.

Batroun
08-22-2018, 12:54 AM
Hold up F-M89!?

Ebizur
08-22-2018, 01:44 AM
Hold up F-M89!?Haplogroup J is defined with the SNP M172 in that table. M172 is actually a marker of haplogroup J2. Most of the samples in the "F* M89" column should belong to haplogroup J1-M267, which is J-M304(xM172). Some of them may belong to H-L901/M2939(xH1a-M69) (e.g. H2-P96) instead.

Lupriac
08-22-2018, 08:01 PM
I wonder if the Shiite markers tested in Mount Lebanon belong to J-M172 are relatives. Are there any surnames being mentioned in the study? (most likely no surname, but maybe if).

That's the closest thing I found for my family

25436

KingofPhoenicia001
08-22-2018, 09:41 PM
I wonder if the Shiite markers tested in Mount Lebanon belong to J-M172 are relatives. Are there any surnames being mentioned in the study? (most likely no surname, but maybe if).

That's the closest thing I found for my family

25436

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "if the markers are relatives". There are plenty of families with Ibrahim/Abraham in Lebanon and most are probably not related so you can't really trust them. For example, I have seen an Ibrahim with E-V12. Fun fact however, the Berri family in Tebnine is J2(M67) and Salam of Beirut are J2b1 :'D .

Lupriac
08-23-2018, 09:35 AM
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "if the markers are relatives". There are plenty of families with Ibrahim/Abraham in Lebanon and most are probably not related so you can't really trust them. For example, I have seen an Ibrahim with E-V12. Fun fact however, the Berri family in Tebnine is J2(M67) and Salam of Beirut are J2b1 :'D .

Exactly and I agree. There is a flawed logic in the way my relative claimed we are just because the other family is (sayyed). I guess only Big-Y will settle this.

And Nice to note the E-V12 and the J2 in Berri family. Salam family is also J2b1? Very interesting :)

Oh and which test of the four ftDNA tests do you recommend for me to uncover my Y-DNA?

https://prnt.sc/klynw8

KingofPhoenicia001
08-23-2018, 04:42 PM
Exactly and I agree. There is a flawed logic in the way my relative claimed we are just because the other family is (sayyed). I guess only Big-Y will settle this.

And Nice to note the E-V12 and the J2 in Berri family. Salam family is also J2b1? Very interesting :)

Oh and which test of the four ftDNA tests do you recommend for me to uncover my Y-DNA?

https://prnt.sc/klynw8

Well any test will get the job done, but I guess it depends on how deep you want to go and money willing to spend. I think most people get the 37 or 67.

Lupriac
09-05-2018, 10:55 AM
Greetings,
Interesting to see that G is more common in Muslims than in non-Muslims. I really wonder why. As I have a question.
My friend, bears a specific surname. He also was paired with another man with the same surname from the Palestinian territories. Their haplogroup was G-M201.
And according to nevgen.org his predicted haplogroup is G2a2b2a1c. Is there any information we know about possible historical populations/ancestries of this particular sub-clade in Lebanon?

Thanks!

Batroun
09-05-2018, 11:34 PM
Greetings,
Interesting to see that G is more common in Muslims than in non-Muslims. I really wonder why. As I have a question.
My friend, bears a specific surname. He also was paired with another man with the same surname from the Palestinian territories. Their haplogroup was G-M201.
And according to nevgen.org his predicted haplogroup is G2a2b2a1c. Is there any information we know about possible historical populations/ancestries of this particular sub-clade in Lebanon?

Thanks!

G2a2b2a1c has been found in early neolithic farmers from Anatolia. Could be ancient or perhaps any settlers from Anatolia. Haplogroup G is very tricky

Not sure if G2a2b2a1c = CTS342 but CTS342 is found in Europe

Lupriac
09-07-2018, 08:36 AM
Thanks! :)

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 02:53 PM
Why are R1b and I very high in Druze?

IronHorse
09-16-2018, 03:02 PM
Why are R1b and I very high in Druze?

I is high in Druze? please share.

I remember being depressed after reading a Lebanese Y-dna paper that had about 900 samples, 5% were I, none of them were I2c2(I-Y16419)

sorry, I realized you were talking about the first post.

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 03:23 PM
I is high in Druze? please share.

I remember being depressed after reading a Lebanese Y-dna paper that had about 900 samples, 5% were I, none of them were I2c2(I-Y16419)

sorry, I realized you were talking about the first post.

I was referring to the image in the first post. 7.8% in Druze is higher than every other religious sect.

25975

(I don't know why the attached image is still there, sorry anyways. Look at the first image)

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 03:29 PM
I is high in Druze? please share.

I remember being depressed after reading a Lebanese Y-dna paper that had about 900 samples, 5% were I, none of them were I2c2(I-Y16419)

sorry, I realized you were talking about the first post.

Also, are all of the I samples linked to crusades?

IronHorse
09-16-2018, 03:40 PM
I was referring to the image in the first post. 7.8% in Druze is higher than every other religious sect.

25975

(I don't know why the attached image is still there, sorry anyways. Look at the first image)

Yes thank you, I remembered it was this study https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00206-1?code=ajhg-site#app2

Zalloua(2008), I used nevgen's predictor (http://www.nevgen.org/) on the STR of haplogroup I provided, they were diverse and weird, I remember finding the Sardino-Iberian subclade and other things, while some didn't predict I but C, G, and H.

I was hoping to find some I-Y16419, because I observed that most of the weird stuff in the Arabian peninsula (like R1b, Q, G2a, L, J2 subclades) seem to be a subset of Levantine lineages, so I thought I2c2 should also be found there, there is currently one Lebanese member in the I2c project.

Joe B
09-16-2018, 04:08 PM
Why are R1b and I very high in Druze?The R1b seen in the Druze and Lebanese populations are usually one of the basal clades. R1b-PF7563, R1b-Z2103>Y4364, L277 and R1b-L584 are good examples.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13369/
IMO, these clades seem to be indigenous to Southwest Asia and perhaps the Western Mediterranean. The frequencies probably have more to do with population bottlenecks and founder effects then anything else.

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 04:29 PM
The R1b seen in the Druze and Lebanese populations are usually one of the basal clades. R1b-PF7563, R1b-Z2103>Y4364, L277 and R1b-L584 are good examples.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13369/
IMO, these clades seem to be indigenous to Southwest Asia and perhaps the Western Mediterranean. The frequencies probably have more to do with population bottlenecks and founder effects then anything else.

Thanks!
Although I remember a sample of a Druze family in Chouf region, they were under R1b-U152. How much does crusader impact show?

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 04:35 PM
For example, I have seen an Ibrahim with E-V12.

Hello mate,
Do you have any direct link for the test? Thanks in advance!

Joe B
09-16-2018, 04:58 PM
Thanks!
Although I remember a sample of a Druze family in Chouf region, they were under R1b-U152. How much does crusader impact show? I will defer to the R1b-U152>L2 researchers. I don't see clear evidence for Crusader impact. Knowing a little bit about id:ERS1789481 would help.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20253/

Lupriac
09-16-2018, 05:03 PM
I have tried to classify the percentage of Haplogroups in Shia Muslims. The percentage that came up with me according to Zalloua et. al 2008:

24.7% Haplogroup J2

24.2% Haplogroup J1

19.5% Haplogroup E1b

14.1% Haplogroups LT

10.3% Haplogroup G

3.4% Haplogroup R1b

3% Haplogroup R1a

0.7% Haplogroup R2

0.1% Others






Now for the Druze of Mount. Lebanon:

22.6% Haplogroup E

21.7% Haplogroups LT

18.9% Haplogroup J2

13.2% Haplogroup J1

12.3% R1b

6.6% Haplogroup I

2.8% R1a

1.9% Haplogroup G





As for the Maronites:

14.1% Haplogroup E

14.1% Haplogroups LT

35.6% Haplogroup J2

15.7% Haplogroup J1

8.2% R1b

5.6% Haplogroup I

1.6% R1a

5.7% Haplogroup G





(Note: The numbers do not add for 100% in every case).

vettor
09-16-2018, 06:25 PM
I have tried to classify the percentage of Haplogroups in Shia Muslims. The percentage that came up with me according to Zalloua et. al 2008:

24.7% Haplogroup J2

24.2% Haplogroup J1

19.5% Haplogroup E1b

14.1% Haplogroups LT

10.3% Haplogroup G

3.4% Haplogroup R1b

3% Haplogroup R1a

0.7% Haplogroup R2

0.1% Others






Now for the Druze of Mount. Lebanon:

22.6% Haplogroup E

21.7% Haplogroups LT

18.9% Haplogroup J2

13.2% Haplogroup J1

12.3% R1b

6.6% Haplogroup I

2.8% R1a

1.9% Haplogroup G





As for the Maronites:

14.1% Haplogroup E

14.1% Haplogroups LT

35.6% Haplogroup J2

15.7% Haplogroup J1

8.2% R1b

5.6% Haplogroup I

1.6% R1a

5.7% Haplogroup G





(Note: The numbers do not add for 100% in every case).

All the data in the thread proves that haplogroups and religion have zero alignment to each other...a waste of time...same as trying to align language with haplogroups..more waste.
At best these haplogroups arrived bearing Pagan religions

KingofPhoenicia001
09-17-2018, 10:20 PM
All the data in the thread proves that haplogroups and religion have zero alignment to each other...a waste of time...same as trying to align language with haplogroups..more waste.
At best these haplogroups arrived bearing Pagan religions

I agree with this to an extent. I think it mostly just depends on the history of the region an individual comes from. For example, if a Sunni comes from a village that historically had a significant Turkmen population in the North, they will obviously not be the same as a Sunni from a Southern village which received no significant historical migration. Same with a Maronite from Zgharta will not be the same as a Maronite from the Mount Lebanon where there was historical Arab migrations. However, everyone obviously shares a "base ethnicity" (for lack of a better word) of the indigenous population who were significantly J2, J1, and E.

Also interesting is how Lebanese mountain populations get noticeable amounts of haplo LT higher than the surrounding Levant... wonder where that came from.

KingofPhoenicia001
09-17-2018, 10:20 PM
Hello mate,
Do you have any direct link for the test? Thanks in advance!

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

vettor
09-18-2018, 03:12 AM
I agree with this to an extent. I think it mostly just depends on the history of the region an individual comes from. For example, if a Sunni comes from a village that historically had a significant Turkmen population in the North, they will obviously not be the same as a Sunni from a Southern village which received no significant historical migration. Same with a Maronite from Zgharta will not be the same as a Maronite from the Mount Lebanon where there was historical Arab migrations. However, everyone obviously shares a "base ethnicity" (for lack of a better word) of the indigenous population who were significantly J2, J1, and E.

Also interesting is how Lebanese mountain populations get noticeable amounts of haplo LT higher than the surrounding Levant... wonder where that came from.

The recent paper of ancient samples had 95percent of males as haplo. T. Coming to the levant either from north Anatolia or South Caucasus........they arrived prior to creation of semitic languages and also left the area prior to creation of Semitic language.
80 percent had blue and fair skin and hair.......I presume they went south towards Egypt or backtracked into south Anatolia.

The oldest haplo. In the levant seems to be E

Also, J haplo arrived in the levant after T but seemed to have stayed in the area longer

KingofPhoenicia001
09-18-2018, 06:12 AM
The recent paper of ancient samples had 95percent of males as haplo. T. Coming to the levant either from north Anatolia or South Caucasus........they arrived prior to creation of semitic languages and also left the area prior to creation of Semitic language.
80 percent had blue and fair skin and hair.......I presume they went south towards Egypt or backtracked into south Anatolia.

The oldest haplo. In the levant seems to be E

Also, J haplo arrived in the levant after T but seemed to have stayed in the area longer

Hm, interesting. So what you are saying is that a greater percent of these people settled in the Lebanese mountains? That would make sense considering the average for surrounding populations is around 5%... Maybe this population is also the cause of lighter looks among Lebanese, since you said they were fair skinned.

Batroun
09-19-2018, 02:47 AM
The recent paper of ancient samples had 95percent of males as haplo. T. Coming to the levant either from north Anatolia or South Caucasus........they arrived prior to creation of semitic languages and also left the area prior to creation of Semitic language.
80 percent had blue and fair skin and hair.......I presume they went south towards Egypt or backtracked into south Anatolia.

The oldest haplo. In the levant seems to be E

Also, J haplo arrived in the levant after T but seemed to have stayed in the area longer

Wow, any link for this? Tried searching. Do we know what this population was? I had believed the lighter phenotypes were mostly due to Indo-Europeans mainly Mitannis who carried Sintashta with them that contributed to admixture in Lebanon.

vettor
09-19-2018, 07:01 AM
Wow, any link for this? Tried searching. Do we know what this population was? I had believed the lighter phenotypes were mostly due to Indo-Europeans mainly Mitannis who carried Sintashta with them that contributed to admixture in Lebanon.

Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel (Harney et al. 2018)

See ancient thread on this site

Lupriac
09-20-2018, 01:45 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

Oh, I actually meant links to the samples tested under "Ibrahim". It's my fault that I didn't make it clear.

Lupriac
09-20-2018, 01:49 PM
Wow, any link for this? Tried searching. Do we know what this population was? I had believed the lighter phenotypes were mostly due to Indo-Europeans mainly Mitannis who carried Sintashta with them that contributed to admixture in Lebanon.

I don't think we actually know the genetic makeup of the Mitannis. It would be interesting to see if they ever had T as their main lineage.

Lupriac
09-20-2018, 01:51 PM
Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel (Harney et al. 2018)

See ancient thread on this site

I have previously watched an interview with Pierre Zalloua. He claimed Haplogroup T (previously known as K2) originated in Ethiopia? Ho accurate is that claim? Thanks!

KingofPhoenicia001
09-20-2018, 06:16 PM
Oh, I actually meant links to the samples tested under "Ibrahim". It's my fault that I didn't make it clear.
Sorry, I think I lost the exact page :/ but it was one of those FTDNA Projecs that show the surname and location.

vettor
09-20-2018, 08:00 PM
I have previously watched an interview with Pierre Zalloua. He claimed Haplogroup T (previously known as K2) originated in Ethiopia? Ho accurate is that claim? Thanks!

Lookup haplo group K-M9. On why he is wrong

T is known as K1b
L is K1a
And K2 is the P branch which has M, S, R etc

IMO T began between the Caspian Sea and the Himalayas mountains"..........once of the oldest branch was found in Bhutan a few years ago.
I still support others who are more knowledgable and they state between the black and caspian seas

Lupriac
10-01-2018, 05:28 PM
Are the Q & C among Lebanese a result of Turkish migrations from Central Asia?

IronHorse
10-01-2018, 06:47 PM
Are the Q & C among Lebanese a result of Turkish migrations from Central Asia?

most if not all the Q in the Levant is Q-L245

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L245/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-q/dna-results

its old, from the Late Bronze Age at least.

IronHorse
10-06-2018, 06:28 AM
as to the question of what subclade of haplogroup I is present in Lebanon, this is from Zalloua(2008):

https://els-jbs-prod-cdn.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/15191e4b-435a-468c-9eca-67cc75d0e558/gr2.jpg

its not M223, not M26, not M72 (a subclade of I1? but not all of I1 is excluded) and not M21, what is M21? I couldn't find information on it.

strange that they didn't test for the Balkan subclade, wasn't it discovered at the time?

oz
10-06-2018, 07:13 AM
44 I1 but none are I1a2 or I1a3?...and zero I2? Seems like another study with bizarre hg assignments.

IronHorse
10-06-2018, 08:51 AM
44 I1 but none are I1a2 or I1a3?...and zero I2? Seems like another study with bizarre hg assignments.

it's from 2008, it doesn't say they were all I1, but it excluded one I1 subclade M72, maybe M21 is also a subclade of I1.

the STR values also are not helpful, they give strange results (C, H, and G) and I-M26 which was excluded.

tompom
10-11-2018, 11:15 AM
The proportion of Haplogroup J1 among Lebanese Muslims is higher than other religious groups in Lebanon

in this study:

link: static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-11-288/MediaObjects/12862_2011_1910_MOESM3_ESM.XLS

Lupriac
10-16-2018, 03:09 PM
it's from 2008, it doesn't say they were all I1, but it excluded one I1 subclade M72, maybe M21 is also a subclade of I1.

the STR values also are not helpful, they give strange results (C, H, and G) and I-M26 which was excluded.

Isn't all of I descended of Crusaders, probably Germans?

IronHorse
10-16-2018, 04:21 PM
Isn't all of I descended of Crusaders, probably Germans?

I in Lebanon is 5%, I in Germany is 22%, say its 25%, you need to to have one fifth of the German male lineage represented in Lebanon, unless you believe that all German crusaders were I :)

then R1b should be 8-10%, all from European subclades, this is the frequency of R1b in Lebanon, but the majority is Z2013, the Asian kind.

also, there is no admixture from a European source in modern Lebanese.

Lupriac
10-16-2018, 06:11 PM
I in Lebanon is 5%, I in Germany is 22%, say its 25%, you need to to have one fifth of the German male lineage represented in Lebanon, unless you believe that all German crusaders were I :)

then R1b should be 8-10%, all from European subclades, this is the frequency of R1b in Lebanon, but the majority is Z2013, the Asian kind.

also, there is no admixture from a European source in modern Lebanese.

I wonder where is the source then. I do not think that all Germans were under I, but I think I however, was much more in Germany.
Also I have seen a R1b sample in Lebanon under U152, so maybe not all are crusader, but some are definitely.

I recall families that are descended from crusades, most notably: Frangieh (Frankish), El-Frangi (The Frankish), Salibi (Crusader), Douaihy ([The one from] Douai) etc...

ADW_1981
10-17-2018, 02:38 AM
I'm assuming some of the I1 assignments are incorrect. I know some branches of G2 are predicted as I1 sometimes from STR. I tend to agree though. The Crusader input is non-negligible but it's probably not very significant either. Most male lineages die off, and those that survive are likely local ones to the region, or from later migrants. Europeans have had little input in the region since the Crusades, and even then it was marginal.

KingofPhoenicia001
11-25-2018, 01:13 AM
I just wanted to share my own little study on Lebanese Y-DNA which I collected from my 23andme DNA relatives. Out of 95 families, mostly Shia and Sunni but also some Christians and Druze among them.

33 J2 (27 J2a, 6 J2b)... 34.7%
17 E1b1... 18%
16 J1... 17%
9 R1b... 9.5%
9 T... 9.5%
2 Q2
5 G (3 G2, G1)
1 R1a
1 L-M357
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

Artmar
11-28-2018, 05:28 PM
I recall families that are descended from crusades, most notably: Frangieh (Frankish), El-Frangi (The Frankish), Salibi (Crusader), Douaihy ([The one from] Douai) etc...

Isn't Salibi derived from Saqaliba? It reminds me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba

Lupriac
11-28-2018, 05:30 PM
Isn't Salibi derived from Saqaliba? It reminds me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba

I doubt there is really any relation to as-Saqaliba. Salibi is derived from Salib --> Cross/crucifix. the i is to refer to them, "the cross people" or "people of the crucifix" which is what the Crusaders are known as.

Lupriac
11-28-2018, 05:36 PM
I just wanted to share my own little study on Lebanese Y-DNA which I collected from my 23andme DNA relatives. Out of 95 families, mostly Shia and Sunni but also some Christians and Druze among them.

33 J2 (27 J2a, 6 J2b)... 34.7%
17 E1b1... 18%
16 J1... 17%
9 R1b... 9.5%
9 T... 9.5%
2 Q2
5 G (3 G2, G1)
1 R1a
1 L-M357
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

Interesting. By the way what E1b1b subclades (other than M123) were most common among them?

Erikl86
11-28-2018, 05:38 PM
I just wanted to share my own little study on Lebanese Y-DNA which I collected from my 23andme DNA relatives. Out of 95 families, mostly Shia and Sunni but also some Christians and Druze among them.

33 J2 (27 J2a, 6 J2b)... 34.7%
17 E1b1... 18%
16 J1... 17%
9 R1b... 9.5%
9 T... 9.5%
2 Q2
5 G (3 G2, G1)
1 R1a
1 L-M357
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

This is quite amazing in that it's quite similar to the Y-DNA distribution among Ashkenazi Jews (only R1a seems to be more abundant among Ashkenazi vs. the results you got among Lebanese):

http://i67.tinypic.com/a31ki9.png

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 06:42 PM
Interesting. By the way what E1b1b subclades (other than M123) were most common among them?

Surprisingly it is split evenly between 8 E1b1b1a and 8 E1b1b1b. I made a mistake previously because one of the 17 I stated is actually E1b1a. Sorry if this doesn't make sense E1b1b is a very confusing Haplogroup for me haha. But out of the E1b1b1a, most of them are E-L677(V22). For E1b1b1b, 5 of them fall under subclade E-Z830 and the other 3 E-M183.

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 06:47 PM
This is quite amazing in that it's quite similar to the Y-DNA distribution among Ashkenazi Jews (only R1a seems to be more abundant among Ashkenazi vs. the results you got among Lebanese):

http://i67.tinypic.com/a31ki9.png

Yes that is amazing! I think it shows that there is a greater genetic continuity in the Levant than most people think. Noticeable difference is a pretty good percent of haplo T, which is not uncommon in the Lebanese mountains compared to the surrounding areas where it is at low frequencies.

hartaisarlag
11-28-2018, 07:01 PM
Surprisingly it is split evenly between 8 E1b1b1a and 8 E1b1b1b. I made a mistake previously because one of the 17 I stated is actually E1b1a. Sorry if this doesn't make sense E1b1b is a very confusing Haplogroup for me haha. But out of the E1b1b1a, most of them are E-L677(V22). For E1b1b1b, 5 of them fall under subclade E-Z830 and the other 3 E-M183.

and of the E-Z830s, what are the terminal SNPs?

Lupriac
11-28-2018, 07:18 PM
Surprisingly it is split evenly between 8 E1b1b1a and 8 E1b1b1b. I made a mistake previously because one of the 17 I stated is actually E1b1a. Sorry if this doesn't make sense E1b1b is a very confusing Haplogroup for me haha. But out of the E1b1b1a, most of them are E-L677(V22). For E1b1b1b, 5 of them fall under subclade E-Z830 and the other 3 E-M183.

If you do have the surnames, could you please PM them to me? If not, then no problem :) Thanks!

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 07:20 PM
and of the E-Z830s, what are the terminal SNPs?

Sorry I don't have an answer for that... This is all 23andme data that I downloaded into a spreadsheet. I just grouped them under that subclade to simplify it but more specifically they were E-M123, E-M34, E-L791, and 2 of E-L29 if that helps?

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 07:22 PM
If you do have the surnames, could you please PM them to me? If not, then no problem :) Thanks!

Yes of course I'd love to share! If more Lebanese people have the time to do this we can put it in one big spreadsheet haha

Lupriac
11-28-2018, 07:26 PM
Yes of course I'd love to share! If more Lebanese people have the time to do this we can put it in one big spreadsheet haha

Yep. I'd love to do this. I have been discovering more and more of my friends' DNA samples and families, the more I realize people of Lebanon and the Levant in general are extremely diverse. I have discovered that 3 of my friends were under G2a, 2 were under R-M269, about 12 were J2 and 6 were J1. It seemed to me I was a lone E1b1b, hah!

Erikl86
11-28-2018, 08:08 PM
Yes that is amazing! I think it shows that there is a greater genetic continuity in the Levant than most people think. Noticeable difference is a pretty good percent of haplo T, which is not uncommon in the Lebanese mountains compared to the surrounding areas where it is at low frequencies.

Btw, what kind of Q subclades did you get?

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 08:11 PM
Btw, what kind of Q subclades did you get?

Q-M378 and Q-M346

Erikl86
11-28-2018, 08:15 PM
Q-M378 and Q-M346

Nice ! as you can see - I share one of those subclades with that Lebanese - do you have any further down stream subclade on that Q-M378 sample? Do you know if it's Q-L245 by any chance?

KingofPhoenicia001
11-28-2018, 08:23 PM
Nice ! as you can see - I share one of those subclades with that Lebanese - do you have any further down stream subclade on that Q-M378 sample? Do you know if it's Q-L245 by any chance?

No unfortunately that's the most I can get. But that's an interesting haplogroup very widespread!

Erikl86
11-28-2018, 08:42 PM
No unfortunately that's the most I can get. But that's an interesting haplogroup very widespread!

Actually, it's not common. I was unaware that subclade Q-M378 also exist among Lebanese - I knew it existed among Mizrahi Jews, pre-Arab Mesopotamian populations (Assyrians, Mandaeans and Marsh "Arabs") and Armenians. I also know it was found among at least 1 Jordanian sample.

I knew haplogroup Q exists among ~2% of Lebanese, but seeing that at least some of it is also subclade Q-M378, isn't surprising but refreshing and yet another proof that it existed among Levantines.

All Ashkenazi Q is Q-M378 - which just shows that even the less common paternal haplogroups among Ashkenazi Jews originate from the Levant.

EDIT: And btw, just looked again at my charts from the Jewish Q FTDNA project - and currently all known paternal Q subclades among Yemenite Jews down stream from Q-M346 :)

hartaisarlag
11-28-2018, 08:44 PM
Sorry I don't have an answer for that... This is all 23andme data that I downloaded into a spreadsheet. I just grouped them under that subclade to simplify it but more specifically they were E-M123, E-M34, E-L791, and 2 of E-L29 if that helps?

Definitely helps. And specifically curious about the L791s / anything more specific about their origins.

Erikl86
11-28-2018, 08:46 PM
No unfortunately that's the most I can get. But that's an interesting haplogroup very widespread!

Oh and one last question - which religious sect did that sample with Q-M378 belong to?

KingofPhoenicia001
11-29-2018, 01:31 AM
Oh and one last question - which religious sect did that sample with Q-M378 belong to?

Can't be completely sure, but it seems like they are Shia from the south. The other Q-M346 was from Sidon.

KingofPhoenicia001
11-29-2018, 01:49 AM
Definitely helps. And specifically curious about the L791s / anything more specific about their origins.

Only one L791 and there is a pretty good chance of them being Christian or Muslim. I am aware of Shias in the south with their surname, but there are also Christians with it. The other E-M123 and M34 definitely Shia, the M34 being from my father's town in the south. L29 one is Sunni the other Shia.

Erikl86
12-05-2018, 09:10 AM
Can't be completely sure, but it seems like they are Shia from the south. The other Q-M346 was from Sidon.

The irony that most Israelis which belong to the paternal haplogroup Q (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi background, except for Yemenite Jews), share the same subclade with Shia Hezbollah activists. The Middle East at it's cruelest irony.

IronHorse
12-05-2018, 02:56 PM
The irony that most Israelis which belong to the paternal haplogroup Q (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi background, except for Yemenite Jews), share the same subclade with Shia Hezbollah activists. The Middle East at it's cruelest irony.

let's hope that there will be, in the near future, a just, peaceful, and prosperous Middle East for Arabs, Jews, Iranians, Turks and the rest.

KingofPhoenicia001
12-05-2018, 07:05 PM
The irony that most Israelis which belong to the paternal haplogroup Q (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi background, except for Yemenite Jews), share the same subclade with Shia Hezbollah activists. The Middle East at it's cruelest irony.

Family like to fight :noidea: what are we gonna do about it haha

Erikl86
12-05-2018, 07:18 PM
Family like to fight :noidea: what are we gonna do about it haha

So I checked FTDNA haplotree:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/Q

http://i68.tinypic.com/2cgd6co.png

Seems like at least one of the Lebanese Q-M242s was analyzed to the point where we can say that Q-Y2209 exists in Lebanon as well.

If you'd look at my signature, you can see it's just one up from the subclade that all Ashkenazi Jews specifically belong to, Q-Y2225.

Amazing.

EDIT: All the Western and European Q-Y2209s and Q-L245 in this tree are of Jews or Western Asians that were sampled in those countries, I've checked randomly to see.

KingofPhoenicia001
12-05-2018, 07:30 PM
So I checked FTDNA haplotree:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/Q

http://i68.tinypic.com/2cgd6co.png

Seems like at least one of the Lebanese Q-M242s was analyzed to the point where we can say that Q-Y2209 exists in Lebanon as well.

If you'd look at my signature, you can see it's just one up from the subclade that all Ashkenazi Jews specifically belong to, Q-Y2225.

Amazing.

EDIT: All the Western and European Q-Y2209s and Q-L245 in this tree are of Jews or Western Asians that were sampled in those countries, I've checked randomly to see.

That's great! So you're telling me this subclade is mostly present in Ashkenazi or do we see it elsewhere?

Agamemnon
12-05-2018, 07:58 PM
The irony that most Israelis which belong to the paternal haplogroup Q (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi background, except for Yemenite Jews), share the same subclade with Shia Hezbollah activists. The Middle East at it's cruelest irony.

It's the same with virtually every major Jewish branch to be honest. For example, my own branch of J1 has been found in a Yemeni Muslim from the Yahr district (in the Lahij governate). Right upstream under ZS227 we have at least one Iraqi Muslim from the Anbar province and one Kuwaiti Muslim:

https://i.imgur.com/X0VtlFv.png

To quote jewishdna.net, ZS227 is "probably one of the most interesting complex Jewish branches coming from Judea" and its ubiquity among Kohanim "makes it clear that the Cohen Jewish Priesthood is seriously given from father to son over the complete phylogenetic tree from the most recent common ancestor of this group to present [...] It is most likely that it originated in the early period of Judaism". I'd surmise that at least some of the non-Jews I mentioned might be uncomfortable with that. And in case you're wondering, the sample from Lebanon here is also a Cohen (so Lebanese Jewish).

To be honest, none of this is surprising, familiarity breeds contempt and so most antagonists are, more often than not, related. This is true of the Jews and their neighbours as it is true of the Indians and the Pakistanis, the Turks and the Armenians and a plethora of other people.

Erikl86
12-06-2018, 07:29 AM
That's great! So you're telling me this subclade is mostly present in Ashkenazi or do we see it elsewhere?

Currently, according to to Gurianov et al. (2014) - the only actual peer reviewed study which found Q-M378 in Ashkenazi Jews (it's kind of sad that us, the non-scientific folks interested in these things, seem to be light years ahead in certain aspects of populations genetics and especially uniparentals), there were two West Asian populations identified under the specific subclade Q-Y2209 - Western Armenians and Ashkenazi Jews.

But, as I said, considering us the non-professional scientific community seem to be beating the scientific community in certain subjects, I won't be drawing conclusions from this that it exists only among these two populations.

I mean - we've already just saw it also appears in one Lebanese according to FTDNA, and I'll bet my money that the south Lebanese Shia Q you've found also belongs to this subclade. For example, yfull.com also identified 1 Jordanian with that subclade.

In all honesty, Ashkenazi Jews probably got this subclade in the Levant itself, from their Judean paternal ancestors, so it's safe to say it should also exist in other Levantine populations.

The fact that it also exists among Armenians, IMO, points out to where from it entered the Middle East to begin with.

Lupriac
01-21-2019, 03:25 PM
28533

Afshar
01-21-2019, 03:35 PM
28533

If I recall correctly those guys are Q-M25 and STR wise cluster with the gulf arabs/Iranians.

Lupriac
01-28-2019, 01:40 PM
If I recall correctly those guys are Q-M25 and STR wise cluster with the gulf arabs/Iranians.

I am not much knowledgeable about Haplogroup Q, but as far as I remember Q1b and Q2 are the most common Q subclades in the Levant.

Dibran
01-29-2019, 12:33 AM
What are the R1a clades? I imagine Z93/Z282 entirely? What clades of I is that btw? I know its not Syria but its not much a stretch to think some European R1a/I2 would pop up? Apparently some 5000 sklaveni mercenaries were settled in Northern Syria by some caliphate.

Lupriac
02-04-2019, 10:24 AM
What are the R1a clades? I imagine Z93/Z282 entirely? What clades of I is that btw? I know its not Syria but its not much a stretch to think some European R1a/I2 would pop up? Apparently some 5000 sklaveni mercenaries were settled in Northern Syria by some caliphate.

R1a is exclusively Z93 as you said. As for the I I have seen two samples in Lebanon, one was I-Z63 and the other was I-CTS11871.

Dibran
02-04-2019, 04:52 PM
R1a is exclusively Z93 as you said. As for the I I have seen two samples in Lebanon, one was I-Z63 and the other was I-CTS11871.

Very cool. Interesting clades for I. Wonder how that made it there. I imagine if it was absorbed by the slavs and brought with those mercenaries settled in Northern Syria. I am not aware of any Germanic settlement.

Lupriac
02-04-2019, 06:05 PM
Very cool. Interesting clades for I. Wonder how that made it there. I imagine if it was absorbed by the slavs and brought with those mercenaries settled in Northern Syria. I am not aware of any Germanic settlement.

I am mostly confused about the I-Z63 since it is I1 and the TMRCA of around 4600 YBP makes it unlikely to be Paleolithic or some sort of Roman settlement unlike I2 which is around 21800 years old. I1 might be crusader offspring perhaps?

Note: I also noticed the I-Z63 person was of a very wide Christian family, it is used for people who are descended of a priest, and the family being so wide they are clearly unrelated, as evidenced by multiples results from this family. They inhabit a mountainous area quite close to my hometown and it is close to Tripoli (County of Tripoli) as well.

Dibran
02-05-2019, 05:16 PM
I am mostly confused about the I-Z63 since it is I1 and the TMRCA of around 4600 YBP makes it unlikely to be Paleolithic or some sort of Roman settlement unlike I2 which is around 21800 years old. I1 might be crusader offspring perhaps?

Note: I also noticed the I-Z63 person was of a very wide Christian family, it is used for people who are descended of a priest, and the family being so wide they are clearly unrelated, as evidenced by multiples results from this family. They inhabit a mountainous area quite close to my hometown and it is close to Tripoli (County of Tripoli) as well.

I forgot about the Crusades lol. Yes that would be a scenario where it could have arrived.

KingofPhoenicia001
09-25-2019, 07:10 PM
I just wanted to share my own little study on Lebanese Y-DNA which I collected from my 23andme DNA relatives. Out of 95 families, mostly Shia and Sunni but also some Christians and Druze among them.

33 J2 (27 J2a, 6 J2b)... 34.7%
17 E1b1... 18%
16 J1... 17%
9 R1b... 9.5%
9 T... 9.5%
2 Q2
5 G (3 G2, G1)
1 R1a
1 L-M357
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

Update: 144 Lebanese families

42 J2 (35 J2a, 7 J2b)... 29%
24 E1b1... 17%
24 J1... 17%
18 R1b... 13%
15 G (12 G2, 3 G1) 10%
11 T... 8%
3 L-M20
2 R1a
1 R2a
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

hartaisarlag
09-25-2019, 07:18 PM
Update: 144 Lebanese families

42 J2 (35 J2a, 7 J2b)... 29%
24 E1b1... 17%
24 J1... 17%
18 R1b... 13%
15 G (12 G2, 3 G1) 10%
11 T... 8%
3 L-M20
2 R1a
1 R2a
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

E1b1 subclade breakdown?

KingofPhoenicia001
09-25-2019, 07:34 PM
E1b1 subclade breakdown?

5 E-L677
4 E-L29
4 E-M183
2 E-M5021
2 E-M78
2 E-V12
1 E-M34
1 E-M4254
1 E-L791
1 E-M44
1 E-V32

hartaisarlag
09-25-2019, 07:45 PM
5 E-L677
4 E-L29
4 E-M183
2 E-M5021
2 E-M78
2 E-V12
1 E-M34
1 E-M4254
1 E-L791
1 E-M44
1 E-V32

Could you PM me any details you're willing to share about the E-L791 individual?

SUPREEEEEME
10-30-2019, 08:18 AM
Update: 144 Lebanese families

42 J2 (35 J2a, 7 J2b)... 29%
24 E1b1... 17%
24 J1... 17%
18 R1b... 13%
15 G (12 G2, 3 G1) 10%
11 T... 8%
3 L-M20
2 R1a
1 R2a
1 N-L708
1 I-M223

J2 subclade breakdown?

Apparently my subclade, J-L70 (under J2), is pretty common in Lebanon.

hartaisarlag
11-22-2019, 09:25 PM
Looks like two Lebanese individuals of different backgrounds—one Druze from Hermon via the Chouf, and one Melkite from Hawran via Zahle—have been found on the same branch of E-Y2947: E-Y39151 (which they share with a Russian).

The fact that this line appears in two different confessional groups, neither known to be particularly exogamous, makes me think it has deep roots in Lebanon/Syria. This suggests to me, along with the recent discovery of an Armenian cluster of Y2947, that the mostly European distribution of identified E-Y2947 samples to date is to a large degree artifactual. However, the Lebanese presence isn’t quite basal - so specific inferences about the branch’s origins are not yet possible.

Amber29
01-24-2020, 05:43 PM
not sure if you guys know just came across this page - a lebanese druze who is R2 on Yfull

36002

just saw this post on lebanese since the subclade is next to mine by several thousands of years.

Lupriac
05-13-2020, 05:47 PM
not sure if you guys know just came across this page - a lebanese druze who is R2 on Yfull

36002

just saw this post on lebanese since the subclade is next to mine by several thousands of years.

It's very interesting how R2 got to here. I also saw a second sample on a study belonging to a Shiite from the Bekaa. One theory is it came with the Jatts who were resettled in Syria (the region) under various caliphs somewhere around 640-680. Many groups were resettled in this region at that time including Jews, Persians, Slavs, Arabs etc. including people from the east (India and Pakistan).

Lupriac
05-13-2020, 05:52 PM
I was trying out some samples on Nevgen and some of them, belonging to J*(xJ2), turned out as J-CTS1460 (with very high probability). I can't seem to find any historical migration or source in which there was any influx of people from the Caucasus. Any ideas regarding the likely source and origins of this clade in the Levant, specifically Lebanon?

Dewsloth
05-13-2020, 06:10 PM
My uncle (maternal grandparents' only son) took a Big Y test a few weeks ago, so I'm just waiting to see where he ends up. :)

Dewsloth
05-26-2020, 12:53 AM
My uncle (maternal grandparents' only son) took a Big Y test a few weeks ago, so I'm just waiting to see where he ends up. :)

Batch 1088 ETA of 06/17/2020 - 07/01/2020

I'm hoping it doesn't take that long. They batched his kit the first week of May.

alejandromb92
05-26-2020, 08:54 AM
So there is a big chance that all my lebanese friends i met in Venezuela, are J2... Nice. Also curious that R1b peaks in the druzes.

Amber29
05-26-2020, 07:06 PM
It's very interesting how R2 got to here. I also saw a second sample on a study belonging to a Shiite from the Bekaa. One theory is it came with the Jatts who were resettled in Syria (the region) under various caliphs somewhere around 640-680. Many groups were resettled in this region at that time including Jews, Persians, Slavs, Arabs etc. including people from the east (India and Pakistan).

the ancient sample next to the lebanese druze is an Uzbek Sample found in BMAC - So I wondered but this is specific R2a which originated in the (Zagros mountain) it has somewhat - most south Asian R2a is related to BMAC esp 13203* Subclade - still got more to look into. tbh R2 is still a little less represented - had another lebanese dude dna match who was also R2-L266 so most likely would come under this same dude (probably) will surely soon find out over time :)

would be interesting to see

Lupriac
05-29-2020, 10:00 PM
5 E-L677
4 E-L29
4 E-M183
2 E-M5021
2 E-M78
2 E-V12
1 E-M34
1 E-M4254
1 E-L791
1 E-M44
1 E-V32

Wouldn't be surprised if all of the E-M183 men turned out to be Druze. Interesting how E-M183 is more common among Druze than among other Lebanese sects.

KingofPhoenicia001
05-30-2020, 04:52 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if all of the E-M183 men turned out to be Druze. Interesting how E-M183 is more common among Druze than among other Lebanese sects.

Why would you say Druze? I would think Sunni first tbh just because contact the frequent contact with North Africa. I looked into it and I actually know that one is from Irkay and one from Saida.

Lupriac
05-30-2020, 06:15 PM
Why would you say Druze? I would think Sunni first tbh just because contact the frequent contact with North Africa. I looked into it and I actually know that one is from Irkay and one from Saida.

Well, from the top of my head, the Fatimids settled Ismailis from North Africa in Lebanon mostly from the Berber tribes that were recruited by them. I also noticed that the Shias under E-M81 tend to be E-A5604, which seems to be rather pre-Islamic. The Druze E-M81 men I seen were E-A2227. Though not sure if this helps my theory. It could be coincidental :D

Bealfire
05-30-2020, 06:58 PM
Indeed. Fatimids were largely built by Kutama Berbers who were Shiah. Many Shiah were in North Africa untill the Zirids took over the power and literally wiped them out. Many Kutama became Sunni and got Arabized, many others kept speaking Berber and become part of the wider Kabyle populations.

It will be interesting to see if those Druzes cluster with with Algerians/Kabyles on yfull. I know for sure A2227 is often called out as a Kutama subclade by some people as it peaks in Central-Eastern Algeria (Bejaia, Jijel , Skikda).

Lupriac
05-30-2020, 08:06 PM
Indeed. Fatimids were largely built by Kutama Berbers who were Shiah. Many Shiah were in North Africa untill the Zirids took over the power and literally wiped them out. Many Kutama became Sunni and got Arabized, many others kept speaking Berber and become part of the wider Kabyle populations.

It will be interesting to see if those Druzes cluster with with Algerians/Kabyles on yfull. I know for sure A2227 is often called out as a Kutama subclade by some people as it peaks in Central-Eastern Algeria (Bejaia, Jijel , Skikda).
Very interesting. The emirate of Tripoli (1079 - 1109) was ruled by Banu Ammar, a family that belonged to the Kutama tribe. They were a vassal state to the Fatimids and were granted the city by the Fatimids too.

Dewsloth
06-01-2020, 01:40 AM
My uncle (maternal grandparents' only son) took a Big Y test a few weeks ago, so I'm just waiting to see where he ends up. :)

Still waiting for his SNPs, but the STRs are in. Right now he is "presumed" J-M267 (aka J1). Might be July before we find out more...

Edit:

Interesting -- Nevgen is pretty convinced that he's J2a1 Z6065> Y7708>M47

I've always been a little suspicious of Nevgen since they could never figure out that I was even DF19, but maybe they are more reliable with J?

Dewsloth
06-01-2020, 02:20 PM
Still waiting for his SNPs, but the STRs are in. Right now he is "presumed" J-M267 (aka J1). Might be July before we find out more...

Edit:

Interesting -- Nevgen is pretty convinced that he's J2a1 Z6065> Y7708>M47

I've always been a little suspicious of Nevgen since they could never figure out that I was even DF19, but maybe they are more reliable with J?

^^ And now his closest (only) Y-STR match at 67, with a genetic distance of 4, is M47 from Ramallah in the 1800s. So maybe Nevgen is on to something.

ThaYamamoto
06-03-2020, 04:15 PM
Has anyone got closer to discerning an ancestral region for L? Major in South Asia, parts of Central, Dagestan and low frequencies across the Levant...is it an Iran_N clade? Can't seem to get an answer for this, even the few Italian Ls make very little sense, dude whose page been dedicated to figuring out his own Italian clade thinks it must've come from a Byzantine source, but where is its ancestral position?

KingofPhoenicia001
06-04-2020, 04:50 AM
Update and specific subclads.

26 E (17%)

4 E-L29
5 E-L677
5 E-M183
1 E-M4254
1 E-M34
1 E-M44
2 E-M5021
3 E-M78
2 E-V12
1 E-V13
1 E-V32
15 G (9%)

1 G-CTS11562
G-L1264 (G2a)
G-L1264 (G2a)
G-L1266 (G2a)
G-L166 (G2a)
G-L30 (G2a)
G-Z3353 (G1)
2 G-L830 (G1b)
G-M342 (G1)
2 G-M406 (G2)
G-P287 (G2)
G-Z17887 (G2)
2 G-Z6653 (G2)
27 J1 (18%)

23 J-CTS5368
2 J-P58 (J1c3)
1 J-L243
1 J-CTS15
47 J2 (31%)

3 J-L25
5 J-L26
2 J-L283 (J2b2)
9 J-L581
3 J-L70
4 J-M172
2 J-M205 (J2b1)
3 J-M241 (J2b2)
5 J-M47
7 J-M67
4 J-M92
3 L

L-M349
L-M22
L-M357
2 Q

Q-M346
Q-M378
17 R1b (11%)

2 R-CTS1843
13 R-L23
2 R-M269 (R1b1)
1 I-M223
2 R1a

R-Y7 (R1a)
R-Z93 (R1a)
12 T (8%)

3 T-CTS6507
2 T-CTS8512
T-CTS8862
6 T-M70

153

drobbah
06-04-2020, 06:00 AM
I'm actually not surprised that E-V32 (downstream subclade of V12) is in Lebanon as I've been noticing an increasing number of V32 results from the Levant especially from Jordanians/Palestinians (E-BY7972). This lineage isn't recent with a 3.5k tmrca.I think these Levantine men must be descendants of men from Upper Egypt,Lower Nubia or the Eastern Desert (Beja territory)

KingofPhoenicia001
06-05-2020, 09:13 PM
Update and specific subclads.

26 E (17%)

4 E-L29
5 E-L677
5 E-M183
1 E-M4254
1 E-M34
1 E-M44
2 E-M5021
3 E-M78
2 E-V12
1 E-V13
1 E-V32
15 G (9%)

1 G-CTS11562
G-L1264 (G2a)
G-L1264 (G2a)
G-L1266 (G2a)
G-L166 (G2a)
G-L30 (G2a)
G-Z3353 (G1)
2 G-L830 (G1b)
G-M342 (G1)
2 G-M406 (G2)
G-P287 (G2)
G-Z17887 (G2)
2 G-Z6653 (G2)
27 J1 (18%)

23 J-CTS5368
2 J-P58 (J1c3)
1 J-L243
1 J-CTS15
47 J2 (31%)

3 J-L25
5 J-L26
2 J-L283 (J2b2)
9 J-L581
3 J-L70
4 J-M172
2 J-M205 (J2b1)
3 J-M241 (J2b2)
5 J-M47
7 J-M67
4 J-M92
3 L

L-M349
L-M22
L-M357
2 Q

Q-M346
Q-M378
17 R1b (11%)

2 R-CTS1843
13 R-L23
2 R-M269 (R1b1)
1 I-M223
2 R1a

R-Y7 (R1a)
R-Z93 (R1a)
12 T (8%)

3 T-CTS6507
2 T-CTS8512
T-CTS8862
6 T-M70

153

Breakdown of E:

5 M-123 (Levant/Asia Minor)

(4) E-L29
(1) E-M34

5 M-81 (concentrated in Maghreb)

(5) E-M183

5 E-L677 (Levantine subclad of E-V22)

3 V-13 (concentrated in Balkans)

(2) E-M5021 (Levantine subclad)
(1) E-V13

3 E-M78 (broad)

3 V-12 (NE Africa/ moderate frequency in Near East& Europe)

(2) E-V12
(1) E-V32 (NE Africa)

1 E-V38 (African)

(1) E-M4254

1 E-M44 (E-M132 Africa)... Beiruti with family origins in Saudi Arabia.

hartaisarlag
06-05-2020, 09:23 PM
Breakdown of E:

5 M-123 (Levant/Asia Minor)

(4) E-L29
(1) E-M34

5 M-81 (concentrated in Maghreb)

(5) E-M183

5 E-L677 (Levantine subclad of E-V22)

3 V-13 (concentrated in Balkans)

(2) E-M5021 (Levantine subclad)
(1) E-V13

3 E-M78 (broad)

3 V-12 (NE Africa/ moderate frequency in Near East& Europe)

(2) E-V12
(1) E-V32 (NE Africa)

1 E-V38 (African)

(1) E-M4254

1 E-M44 (E-M132 Africa)... Beiruti with family origins in Saudi Arabia.

Wasn't there an E-L791 too?

KingofPhoenicia001
06-05-2020, 09:53 PM
Wasn't there an E-L791 too?

I can't be too sure honestly. I accidentally deleted the first file of haplogroups I made, so I had to start from scratch. Might have put his 23andme on private for it not to show up. But yes, I see that we did discuss that individual previously.

Lupriac
06-06-2020, 05:14 PM
I'm actually not surprised that E-V32 (downstream subclade of V12) is in Lebanon as I've been noticing an increasing number of V32 results from the Levant especially from Jordanians/Palestinians (E-BY7972). This lineage isn't recent with a 3.5k tmrca.I think these Levantine men must be descendants of men from Upper Egypt,Lower Nubia or the Eastern Desert (Beja territory)

There's a Jordanian sharing the same branch with a Saudi, with a TMRCA of 3500 ybp. I wonder if other Levantine E-V32 men are on the same cluster. The TMRCA could well fit a spread from Egyptian or Nubian settlers/soldiers/merchants. Other Arab samples (non-Levantine) cluster with Sudanis.

drobbah
06-06-2020, 08:11 PM
There's a Jordanian sharing the same branch with a Saudi, with a TMRCA of 3500 ybp. I wonder if other Levantine E-V32 men are on the same cluster. The TMRCA could well fit a spread from Egyptian or Nubian settlers/soldiers/merchants. Other Arab samples (non-Levantine) cluster with Sudanis.
E-FGC14382 is a Red Sea subclade and can be found from Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea (Aksum) to Egypt. These Levantine men could be descendants of men from any of these sub regions of the Red Sea.

Lupriac
06-15-2020, 01:56 PM
I will be doing the subclade breakdown for the Bekaa and South Shiites soon, the sample size is bigger. I figured out I will do the smaller sample first and then the bigger samples. These communities are historically connected and intertwined, a lot of families fled from the north to the Bekaa valley and South over the course of hundreds of years since the 14th century till the 19th century. Because this sample size is also relatively small, it leaves out tens of families. But just to give a general overview of what we got so far.
(Source: Zalloua et al. 2008)
(Note:I wasn't able to find all the STR markers of all the samples. Furthermore, the clades were predicted by Nevgen and some with relatively low probability)

Breakdown of Mt Leb and North Shiites: n = 17
5 E-M78
2 E-V22
2 E-V12
1 E-V13

3 J-M267
1 J-CTS1460
1 J-PF7263
1 J-M267

3 J-M172
1 J-Z7430
1 J-PH1222
1 J-M172

2 L-M20
1 L-M27
1 L-M317

2 R-M269
2 R-Z2106

1 R-M420

1 E-M123

Edit: One of the R-M269 samples I ran once more earlier, and it was given highest probability as R-DF19 (~44%) and R-Z2106 (~12%). I ran it for Z2106 and it again gave a low probability prediction (~17% if I'm not mistaken). I'm assuming it's Z2106 and was wrongly predicted because of the few markers filled. Another note, one of the E-V22 samples was also predicted as E-V12 on a separate clade (of the other 2 V12), but it gives a high probability when it's ran for V22, so I'm again assuming it's E-V22.

Lupriac
06-16-2020, 03:55 PM
(Once again, a reminder the sample size is relatively small and leaves out hundreds of families)
Bekaa Shiites: n = 47

When it comes to J1, majority samples came out as J-FGC11 > J-FGC12. I'm sure it's due to the over-representation of FGC12 samples in the predictor. I tried comparing Z1884 and Z640, and other lineages common in the area, and I took some rough guesses. Most of the clades under were predicted with a low probability (>30%) and I displayed the two most probable clades according to the calculator. So beware of taking these clades with 100% certainty. The same goes for J2 and other haplogroups.


13 J-M267
9 J-P58 --> One J-FGC5230 or J-Z2285; One J-FGC7944; One J-Z18271 or J-ZS1602; One J-YSC0000076 > J-BY89 (high probability); Three J-FGC1721; One J-Z640 > J-L174; One J-FGC12 > J-ZS9061.

4 J-M267


9 J-M172
8 J-M410 --> One J-Z36829 or J-Z40168, One J-S8230 or J-CTS4132, One J-Y11782 or J-S8230, One J-Z40168 or J-Z40168, One J-FGC33111 or J-CTS4132, One J-Z6048, One J-Z7532, One J-Y12610 or J-Z6048.

1 J-M102 --> J-BY38004 or J-CTS3617


6 E-M78
3 E-V12 --> All predicted as E-CTS693
1 E-V22 --> Predicted as E-BY1984
1 E-V13 --> Predicted as E-S3003
1 E-V65

4 L-M20 --> All as L-M27


3 G-M201
1 G-L30 --> Predicted as G-L14 or G-Z17887
2 G-M201


3 Q-M242
1 Q-Z5902
1 Q-L932
1 Q-YP4004

2 E-M123
2 E-M34 --> One predicted as E-Y14899 or E-BY13750, One as E-Y6200


2 R-M343
1 R-Z2106
1 R-U106 (~70%)


1 R-M420 --> R-Y5


1 R-M479 --> R-FGC13203?


1 E-M81
1 E-A5604


1 T-M184 --> T-Y11151 or T-CTS933


1 C-M217

Edit: Found another J1 sample that was unclassified.

Dewsloth
06-16-2020, 04:18 PM
Edit: One of the R-M269 samples I ran once more earlier, and it was given highest probability as R-DF19 (~44%) and R-Z2106 (~12%). I ran it for Z2106 and it again gave a low probability prediction (~17% if I'm not mistaken). I'm assuming it's Z2106 and was wrongly predicted because of the few markers filled. Another note, one of the E-V22 samples was also predicted as E-V12 on a separate clade (of the other 2 V12), but it gives a high probability when it's ran for V22, so I'm again assuming it's E-V22.

It would be fascinating if he were really DF19, but in my personal experience, Nevgen couldn't tell that I was DF19 at all from my STRs. That was a couple years ago, so maybe they have improved their DF19 sample size and accuracy. Do you happen to recall what subclade of DF19 they were thinking?

ThaYamamoto
06-16-2020, 04:43 PM
What's with the apparent L subclades? How'd they find themselves in the Levant?

Lupriac
06-16-2020, 04:45 PM
It would be fascinating if he were really DF19, but in my personal experience, Nevgen couldn't tell that I was DF19 at all from my STRs. That was a couple years ago, so maybe they have improved their DF19 sample size and accuracy. Do you happen to recall what subclade of DF19 they were thinking?

I ran it again for you, he was predicted for this clade: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z43162/
3803938039

Lupriac
06-16-2020, 04:59 PM
What's with the apparent L subclades? How'd they find themselves in the Levant?

I'm guessing one explanation could be that they have come with the Kura-Araxes culture expansion, or perhaps later as the expansion of Hurrians into the Levant during the Kingdom of Yamhad and Mitanni. Both L-M27 and L-M317.

ThaYamamoto
06-16-2020, 05:12 PM
I'm guessing one explanation could be that they have come with the Kura-Araxes culture expansion, or perhaps later as the expansion of Hurrians into the Levant during the Kingdom of Yamhad and Mitanni. Both L-M27 and L-M317.

Is there any indication yet of where L originates, or M27/357 in particular? I can't ever seem to get an answer.

Dewsloth
06-16-2020, 05:19 PM
I ran it again for you, he was predicted for this clade: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z43162/
3803938039

Holy crap, that's mine! :lol:

There are only 5 of us in Z43162 in the entire FTDNA database, and to my knowledge our STRs don't match each other's close enough to be STR matches in FTDNA's opinion.
Our STRs are so anomalous that of my 30 Y12 matches at FTDNA, not one of them (except my father) is even a DF19 of any subclade.
I even match Generalissimo's nemesis, Carlos :lol: and at least one Z2103.

This is the STR equivalent of the "junk drawer" where you leave all your paperclips and random objects you can't throw out but don't know where else they go.

I'm pretty sure your assumption the guy isn't a DF19 is valid. Thanks for checking this -- although if there were another Z43162, I'd be happy!

Lupriac
06-16-2020, 05:35 PM
Is there any indication yet of where L originates, or M27/357 in particular? I can't ever seem to get an answer.

There's multiple places that were suggested, they include Mesopotamia, the Kashmir knot, Iran and Caucasus. The problem is that the clades of the haplogroup are scarcely spread all over Europe and Asia, and the haplogroup itself is not common in any place, with the exception of India where it represents ~14% of the population but from the same clade "L1c" with a TMRCA that fits the Indus Valley civilization construction timeline. It's been suggested it was spread there by Iranian farmers during the Neolithic. What's more interesting is that you also find people from different regions (Russia, Syria, Italy) who also share the same mother clade with Indians. In my opinion it definitely points to somewhere in Western Asia.

ThaYamamoto
06-16-2020, 06:55 PM
There's multiple places that were suggested, they include Mesopotamia, the Kashmir knot, Iran and Caucasus. The problem is that the clades of the haplogroup are scarcely spread all over Europe and Asia, and the haplogroup itself is not common in any place, with the exception of India where it represents ~14% of the population but from the same clade "L1c" with a TMRCA that fits the Indus Valley civilization construction timeline. It's been suggested it was spread there by Iranian farmers during the Neolithic. What's more interesting is that you also find people from different regions (Russia, Syria, Italy) who also share the same mother clade with Indians. In my opinion it definitely points to somewhere in Western Asia.

Thanks a lot for the insight, that's great to know.

digital_noise
06-16-2020, 09:24 PM
My father in law is L. I forget exactly what subclade 23 and me gave him, maybe L-M357? Anyways, he's from Iran, Kerman area a few generations past

Lupriac
06-18-2020, 06:32 PM
South Shiites: n = 118

Once again, I'm sure a lot of the J1 samples here represented as under FGC12 are not FGC12, but well I tried to be more accurate and ran each of them a couple of times. Same goes to the J2 clades.

37 J-M267 (J1)
8 J-FGC1721 (~4 or 5 high probability, Sayyeds?)
3 J-Z18271 (one with high probability and others with a medium probability)
3 J-ZS9061 (medium probability)
2 J-PH77 (high probability)
1 J-BY69
1 J-ZS8506
1 J-Z640 (low probability)
1 J-F3249 (low probability)
1 J-P56
1 J-M11522
1 J-FGC15940
1 J-ZS8506
1 J-CTS1460
1 J-FGC4415
1 J-ZS1711
9 J-M267

21 J-M172 (J2)
3 J-FGC33111
1 J-Z455 (high probability)
1 J-Y92462
1 J-PH1222
1 J-BY186179
1 J-Y8378
1 J-PF5040
1 J-PH3882
1 J-PF5008 (low probability)
1 J-Z36829
1 J-Y8378 (high probability)
7 J-M172

13 G-M201
3 G-L91
2 G-L30
1 G-Z16670 or G-L14
1 G-CTS11562
1 G-Z30503
1 G-CTS11562
1 G-Z16670
3 G-M201

10 E-M78 (E1b1b1b)
4 E-V12 (all E-CTS693)
3 E-V22
3 E-M78 (no STR markers available)

10 T-M184
4 T-PF5633
2 T-M184
1 T-PF7455
1 T-Y11151
2 T-M184

5 E-V38 (E1b1a)
3 E-M58
1 E-M4231
1 E-V38

4 E-M123 (E1b1b1b2+)
1 E-Z841 or E-M84
1 E-Z841
1 E-M84 (might be an E-Y14899)
1 E-Y14899 (medium probability)
1 E-M123

4 R-M343 (R1b)
2 R-Z2103
1 R-V1636
1 R-M343

2 R-M479 (R1a)
1 R-KMS149
1 R-Y5647

2 Q-M242
1 Q-F1096 --> Q-M25
1 Q-M242

2 I-M170
1 I-L1274
1 I-Y13338 (medium probability)

2 E-M81 (E1b1b1b1+)
2 E-A5604

1 E-M132

1 L-M20

1 Sample is either E-M123* or E-V13. Likely E-M123*.

Note: I'm searching for samples I missed, just in case someone's wondering

coffeeprince
06-19-2020, 01:37 AM
South Shiites: n = 118

Once again, I'm sure a lot of the J1 samples here represented as under FGC12 are not FGC12, but well I tried to be more accurate and ran each of them a couple of times. Same goes to the J2 clades.

37 J-M267 (J1)
8 J-FGC1721 (~4 or 5 high probability, Sayyeds?)
3 J-Z18271 (one with high probability and others with a medium probability)
3 J-ZS9061 (medium probability)
2 J-PH77 (high probability)
1 J-BY69
1 J-ZS8506
1 J-Z640 (low probability)
1 J-F3249 (low probability)
1 J-P56
1 J-M11522
1 J-FGC15940
1 J-ZS8506
1 J-CTS1460
1 J-FGC4415
1 J-ZS1711
9 J-M267

21 J-M172 (J2)
3 J-FGC33111
1 J-Z455 (high probability)
1 J-Y92462
1 J-PH1222
1 J-BY186179
1 J-Y8378
1 J-PF5040
1 J-PH3882
1 J-PF5008 (low probability)
1 J-Z36829
1 J-Y8378 (high probability)
7 J-M172

13 G-M201
3 G-L91
2 G-L30
1 G-Z16670 or G-L14
1 G-CTS11562
1 G-Z30503
1 G-CTS11562
1 G-Z16670
3 G-M201

10 E-M78 (E1b1b1b)
4 E-V12 (all E-CTS693)
3 E-V22
3 E-M78 (no STR markers available)

10 T-M184
4 T-PF5633
2 T-M184
1 T-PF7455
1 T-Y11151
2 T-M184

5 E-V38 (E1b1a)
3 E-M58
1 E-M4231
1 E-V38

4 E-M123 (E1b1b1b2+)
1 E-Z841 or E-M84
1 E-Z841
1 E-M84 (might be an E-Y14899)
1 E-Y14899 (medium probability)
1 E-M123

4 R-M343 (R1b)
2 R-Z2103
1 R-V1636
1 R-M343

2 R-M479 (R1a)
1 R-KMS149
1 R-Y5647

2 Q-M242
1 Q-F1096 --> Q-M25
1 Q-M242

2 I-M170
1 I-L1274
1 I-Y13338 (medium probability)

2 E-M81 (E1b1b1b1+)
2 E-A5604

1 E-M132

1 L-M20

1 Sample is either E-M123* or E-V13. Likely E-M123*.

Note: I'm searching for samples I missed, just in case someone's wondering

Which study are these from - the 2008 or 2010?

Lupriac
06-19-2020, 07:33 PM
Which study are these from - the 2008 or 2010?

2008.

Dewsloth
06-22-2020, 07:50 PM
Still waiting for my uncle's results. Nevgen's prediction of M47 is consistent with his Y67 match with a Palestinian M47 (genetic distance of 4, TIP predicts 98% shared ancestor within 16 generations).
Their MDKA was listed as early 1800s Ramallah, traditionally a Christian Arab town.

Both Yfull and FTDNA have one branch with Lebanese M47, and it's defined as J-Y3740 (yfull - 4 SNP block)/J-Y37636 (FTDNA 7 SNP block) with yfull giving a formation time of 4800 YBP, and TMRCA of 3800.

It will be interesting to see how closely my uncle matches the existing Lebanese sample.

coffeeprince
06-24-2020, 05:14 PM
2008.

Thanks. My haplogroup for many years (before it was refined by Big-Y - so now this haplogroup is an upstream variant), which was already very uncommon today, is listed in some of these samples.

vettor
06-24-2020, 05:26 PM
My father in law is L. I forget exactly what subclade 23 and me gave him, maybe L-M357? Anyways, he's from Iran, Kerman area a few generations past

They say that most of L ydna came to Lebanon as per Druze people.......not sure where Druze originate ..............also others stories , is that it came south from Armenia

Anyhow, what I read

Lupriac
06-24-2020, 06:42 PM
Thanks. My haplogroup for many years (before it was refined by Big-Y - so now this haplogroup is an upstream variant), which was already very uncommon today, is listed in some of these samples.

Interesting. Are you an L?

Dewsloth
06-30-2020, 05:05 PM
Still waiting for my uncle's results. Nevgen's prediction of M47 is consistent with his Y67 match with a Palestinian M47 (genetic distance of 4, TIP predicts 98% shared ancestor within 16 generations).
Their MDKA was listed as early 1800s Ramallah, traditionally a Christian Arab town.

Both Yfull and FTDNA have one branch with Lebanese M47, and it's defined as J-Y3740 (yfull - 4 SNP block)/J-Y37636 (FTDNA 7 SNP block) with yfull giving a formation time of 4800 YBP, and TMRCA of 3800.

It will be interesting to see how closely my uncle matches the existing Lebanese sample.

Results coming in. NevGen was right. Now it says:

J-M172>J-M410>J-CTS7683>J-L26>J-PF5088>J-PF5125>J-Z2227>J-Z6065>J-Y7708>J-M47>J-SK194>J-Y8531>Y14675

^^ So it appears we have no matches yet (the Ramallah guy Y67 matching above hasn't done Big Y), and are not the same M47 subclade as the other Lebanese M47s already reported on Big Y.
Nothing like being on the cutting edge of discoveries :lol:

Lupriac
06-30-2020, 05:43 PM
Results coming in. NevGen was right. Now it says:

J-M172>J-M410>J-CTS7683>J-L26>J-PF5088>J-PF5125>J-Z2227>J-Z6065>J-Y7708>J-M47>J-SK194>J-Y8531>Y14675

^^ So it appears we have no matches yet (the Ramallah guy Y67 matching above hasn't done Big Y), and are not the same M47 subclade as the other Lebanese M47s already reported on Big Y.
Nothing like being on the cutting edge of discoveries :lol:

Interesting. His subclade seems dominated by Iraqi men and men from the Arabian peninsula.. The TMRCA of the clade is also 2500 ybp, what do you think?

Dewsloth
06-30-2020, 07:07 PM
Interesting. His subclade seems dominated by Iraqi men and men from the Arabian peninsula.. The TMRCA of the clade is also 2500 ybp, what do you think?

I still think the guy from Ramallah is the best clue for shared ancestry, since none of the Iraqi/Peninsula subclade members is a match at all inside thousands of years.
My maternal Y-line is from Kfeir, but some family history says the family (four brothers) was originally from closer to Damascus(??) but fled when someone in power (that they didn't like) wanted to marry one of their sisters.

Now what was written down as their origin was "Ein Hylie" (sp?) but I don't know where that is. I've wondered if it could actually be "Ain al-Hilweh" -- which could be any place with a spring although one modern location may have also had the name in antiquity:


Ain al-Hilweh is "sweet water spring". People believe that the camp was named after a natural water spring that existed in the present-day Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp. But the truth is, the Ain al-Hilweh spring was located at the corner of the valley between Miye ou Miye village and Darb es Seem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_al-Hilweh

Idunno.

Lupriac
06-30-2020, 07:36 PM
I still think the guy from Ramallah is the best clue for shared ancestry, since none of the Iraqi/Peninsula subclade members is a match at all inside thousands of years.
My maternal Y-line is from Kfeir, but some family history says the family (four brothers) was originally from closer to Damascus(??) but fled when someone in power (that they didn't like) wanted to marry one of their sisters.

Interesting story. I believe this is the story of most families here. People moving out of cities and towns because of political and/or logistical inconveniences. Heck, it's the story of humanity. (My own family, a few brothers, (unknown origins) roamed land searching for pastures with water and a good landscape until they settled.) That being said, wouldn't be surprising if her line was originally from Ramallah, or from any Christian village close by. Although there was some influx of Christians from modern-day Lebanon & Syria in the 18th & 19th century to that region.
Also yeah it makes sense it's Ain el-Helweh.

Dewsloth
06-30-2020, 08:29 PM
I do have 7 distant Ancestry.com matches from Miye ou Miye so maybe, and the west slope of Mt. Hermon seems like a fitting place to flee from there (almost due east and uphill until you run out of places to go).
But let's face it: if you're Lebanese, you probably have distant matches from all over the country (and world), so it's nothing conclusive.

I do know that the family name supposedly changed (post-Kfeir arrival) after some of them made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem ... maybe they were also visiting cousins 6 miles away in Ramallah :lol:

Lupriac
07-14-2020, 05:48 PM
One of my friends recently uploaded his results to morleydna and got J-M92. Any ideas for the presence of J-M92 in the Levant?

KingofPhoenicia001
07-15-2020, 07:55 PM
One of my friends recently uploaded his results to morleydna and got J-M92. Any ideas for the presence of J-M92 in the Levant?

It is not a rare subclade of J2a present all over the East Med and Caucasus into Central Asia from what I have read on it. 4 individuals from my haplogroup study were specifically J-M92, 3 Muslims and 1 Christian with the surname Aoun... wonder if that is the same family as the senile leech sitting in Baabda today lmao.

alejandromb92
12-05-2020, 10:11 PM
One of my friends recently uploaded his results to morleydna and got J-M92. Any ideas for the presence of J-M92 in the Levant?

J2a-M92 is highly related with ancient greek expansion, and knowing this i think it might be one (if not the most) very common clade there, at least in Lebanon.

qallezan65
12-07-2020, 02:35 AM
Hi everyone. I recently got my Lebanese grandfather's Y-700 results. His terminal SNP is J-Y22041 and he's Melkite Greek Catholic. Like many other Lebanese people, he claims to be a direct descendant of the Ghassanid kings, although I no longer think this is true.

Lupriac
02-06-2021, 07:14 PM
J2a-M92 is highly related with ancient greek expansion, and knowing this i think it might be one (if not the most) very common clade there, at least in Lebanon.

J-M92 does seem to be common among Greeks, mainlanders and islanders, though attributing all J-M92 in the Levant to ancient Greeks is a bit far-fetched, since Greek settlers during Seleucid times didn't leave much (if at all) genetic admixture in Levantines. Although, there are some other J2a lineages (xM92) like J-P279 that are very likely Greek (presence of ancestral and sister subclades in Greece and southern Italy (Magna Graecia)).

alejandromb92
02-06-2021, 07:27 PM
J-M92 does seem to be common among Greeks, mainlanders and islanders, though attributing all J-M92 in the Levant to ancient Greeks is a bit far-fetched, since Greek settlers during Seleucid times didn't leave much (if at all) genetic admixture in Levantines. Although, there are some other J2a lineages (xM92) like J-P279 that are very likely Greek (presence of ancestral and sister subclades in Greece and southern Italy (Magna Graecia)).

Interesting!

Ajeje Brazorf
02-06-2021, 07:40 PM
Y-DNA of ancients from Lebanon



Object-ID
Colloquial-Skeletal
Y-DNA
SNPs
Source
Date
Simplified_Culture
Culture_Grouping
Label
Location
SiteID


ERS1790733.SG
SI-22
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>L620>PF4832>L136>P58>CTS9721>PF4678>Z1865>Z1853>L862>PF4843>YSC0000235>PF4638>YSC0000234>L858>FGC11
HaberAJHG2017
-1750
Levant_BA
Canaanite culture
Sidon_BA
Sidon
54


ERS1790732.SG
SI-12
J>M172>M102>Z529>M205
HaberAJHG2017
-1700
Levant_BA
Canaanite culture
Sidon_BA
Sidon
63


ERS4542991
SFI-55
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>FGC82833>Z1828>Z1842
HaberAJHG2020
-650
Levant_Assyrian
Assyrian (Iron Age II)
Beirut_IAII
Beirut SFI-415
T43 cxt 7855


ERS4542987
SFI-47
G>L89>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148>PF3177>FGC2263>L91>Z42562>Z42732>Z42571
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T27 cxt 2542


ERS4542988
SFI-39
H>P96

HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T12


ERS4542983
SFI-35
I2>CTS2257>L460>P214
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T6 cxt 1055


ERS4542964
SFI-45
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>FGC82833>Z1828>BY69
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T25 cxt 5249


ERS4542984
SFI-34
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>L620>PF4832>L136>P58>CTS9721>PF4678>Z1865>Z1853>L862>PF4843>YSC0000235>PF4638>YSC0000234>L858>YSC0000076>FGC15940>FGC15941>ZS1711
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T5 cxt 1062


ERS4542990
SFI-44
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>L620>PF4832>L136>P58>CTS9721>PF4678>Z1865>Z1853>L862>PF4843>YSC0000235>PF4638>YSC0000234>L858>YSC0000076>FGC15940>FGC15941>ZS1711
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
cxt 1593


ERS4542989
SFI-42
J>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>L620>PF4832>L136>P58>CTS9721>PF4678>Z1865>Z1853>L862>PF4843>YSC0000235>PF4638>YSC0000234>L858>YSC0000076>FGC8224>FGC8223
HaberAJHG2020
-468
Levant_Achaemenid
Achaemenid (Iron Age III)
Beirut_IAIII
Beirut SFI-1075
T21


ERS4542972
SFI-5
Q>MEH2>M346>Y4800>F1161>F1513>L932>L938>F749>BZ1462
HaberAJHG2020
-163
Levant_Hellenistic
Hellenistic
Beirut_Hellenistic
Beirut SFI-477
T9


ERS4542974
SFI-12
E>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1902>V264>V65
HaberAJHG2020
-149
Levant_Hellenistic
Hellenistic
Beirut_Hellenistic
Beirut SFI-477
T27


ERS4542977
SFI-15
G>L89>P15>L1259>L30>M406>PF3299>FGC5089>M3302>M3422
HaberAJHG2020
-87
Levant_Roman
Early Roman
Beirut_ERoman
Beirut SFI-477
T32


ERS4542973
SFI-11
G>L89>P15>L1259>L30>L141>P303
HaberAJHG2020
-46
Levant_Roman
Early Roman
Beirut_ERoman
Beirut SFI-477
T24


ERS3189333
QED-2
T>L490>M70>Z19859>L454>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>BY28451>Z709>CTS7703>CTS8512>L906>CTS8603>CTS6174>P77>CTS2860>Z711>Y4956>CTS6507>FGC80980>Y4963>CTS9882
71266615
HaberAJHG2019
322
Levant_IA
Lebanon Roman
Levant_Roman
Qornet ed-Deir


ERS3189343
SI-53
R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF63
266974394
HaberAJHG2019
1090
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189349
SI-38
E>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>V22>CTS567>CTS6080>L1250
33711271
HaberAJHG2019
1200
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189348
SI-44
J>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846>M67
25262493
HaberAJHG2019
1200
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189351
SI-40
R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
21871263
HaberAJHG2019
1200
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189357
SI-47
R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
26722544
HaberAJHG2019
1200
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189353
SI-42
T>L490>M70
37079898
HaberAJHG2019
1218
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189352
SI-41
R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
169086445
HaberAJHG2019
1226,5
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189350
SI-39
R1b>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
35804710
HaberAJHG2019
1237
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon



ERS3189355
SI-45
Q>MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932>YP6185>Y6850
193449685
HaberAJHG2019
1249
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Levant_Medieval
Sidon

Helves
02-11-2021, 08:13 PM
Somewhat surprising to see J-Z1828 in ancient Lebanon. What’s the breakdown of J1 in Lebanon between P58 and Z1828?

Lupriac
02-12-2021, 06:50 PM
Somewhat surprising to see J-Z1828 in ancient Lebanon. What’s the breakdown of J1 in Lebanon between P58 and Z1828?

For that, I searched Zalloua et al. 2007's material and used the 120 J1 samples with STR values published; running samples with DYS388 value equal or less than 14 on NEVGEN, I found 9 that can be assigned as J1-Z1828. I added the sect and geographic origin assigned for each sample just in case:



Mt Leb Maronite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> ZS3042

Mt Leb Maronite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> CTS1460> Y97265

North Sunnite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> CTS1460

Mt. Leb Sunnite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> CTS1460

Beirut Sunnite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842

North Sunnite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842

South Shiite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> CTS1460

South Shiite: J1a3 Z1828> BY69

Mt. Leb Shiite: J1a3 Z1828> BY69 or CTS1460

I'm guessing J1-Z1828 in Lebanon is a trace of Kura-Araxes expansionists and Hurrians.

Lupriac
02-13-2021, 02:14 PM
Rather uncommon and interesting haplogroups in Lebanon (and the Levant region as a whole) I found by sample:

C:

Bekaa Shiite: C2 M217

Bekaa Shiite: C2 M217

E:


South Shiite: E1b1a V38>> M4231

South Shiite: E1a M132

South Shiite: E1b1b L618>BY6630

Mt. Leb Maronite: E1b1b V13>>S3003

Bekaa Shiite: E1b1b L67

North Maronite: E1b1b M123>M34> M84>> FT81636 (E-Y82779)

G:

North Maronite: G2b M3155


I:

North Maronite: I1 Z63

J1:

North Maronite: J1a >> P58>> S4924> ZS5379

North Maronite: J1a >> PH77

Mt Leb Maronite: J1a3 Z1828> Z1842> Z18436> CTS1460> Y97265

South Shiite: J1a >> PH77

South Shiite: J1a >> P58>> ZS241>> Z18271> ZS2434

South Shiite: J1 P56

Mt Leb Shiite: J1a2a2 PF7264> PF7263

Bekaa Shiite J1a >> P58>> FGC11

Bekaa Sunnite: J1a >> P58>> Z18297> ZS4307


Quick reminder: I did not run *all* of the samples from the study, these are only the samples I ran previously and found to be somewhat uncommon (or less common) and an interesting find in the Lebanese.

Lupriac
02-13-2021, 05:04 PM
J2:


South Catholic: J2a1 PF5191>> PH4970

South Druze: J2a1 M319> S18579

Mt. Leb Maronite: J2a1 Z7700> Z40168

Mt. Leb Maronite: J2b2a M241>>Z1297

North Shiite: J2a2 PF5008

South Shiite: J2a1 Z1846> Y8378


N:


Beirut Sunnite: N1a2 CTS6380


Q:


Mt. Leb Maronite: Q M346>> Y4800> Z5902

Bekaa Shiite: Q M346>> Y4800> F835> L932

Mt. Leb Sunnite: Q M346>> Z780 (74%????)

Beirut Shiite: Q F1096> M25> F4531


R1b:


North Maronite: R1b Z2103>Y4362>> BY13762

South Shiite: R1b V1636

Bekaa Shiite: R1b U106

Bekaa Shiite: R1b P312 (U152 or L21)

North Maronite: R1b DF27

Beirut Sunnite: R1b Z2103> PF331

Mt. Leb Sunnite: R1b PF7562


R2:

Bekaa Shiite: R2 M479
South Sunnite: R2 M479

Helves
03-13-2021, 08:33 PM
Rather uncommon and interesting haplogroups in Lebanon (and the Levant region as a whole) I found by sample:

C:


E:


G:


I:


J1:


Quick reminder: I did not run *all* of the samples from the study, these are only the samples I ran previously and found to be somewhat uncommon (or less common) and an interesting find in the Lebanese.

What is your take on the E1b1 haplogroups in Lebanon? I actually thought that E-M123 would be the most common but it looks like that M78 is the dominating one. If I'm not mistaken the Natufians sampled so far are M123 whilst the later PPNB-C samples were mainly M78, but all of the E1b1 found so far in samples within a Semitic context are under M123>M84. The M78 in the Druze FTDNA project seems to be overwhelmingly E-V22 and E-V13 is not that particularly common.

ThaYamamoto
03-14-2021, 06:57 PM
Hey Lupriac, none of the Mt Leb paper samples were of L in origin? Do you know if there is a datasheet with the Y calls for all the samples from that paper?

Lupriac
03-14-2021, 09:57 PM
What is your take on the E1b1 haplogroups in Lebanon? I actually thought that E-M123 would be the most common but it looks like that M78 is the dominating one. If I'm not mistaken the Natufians sampled so far are M123 whilst the later PPNB-C samples were mainly M78, but all of the E1b1 found so far in samples within a Semitic context are under M123>M84. The M78 in the Druze FTDNA project seems to be overwhelmingly E-V22 and E-V13 is not that particularly common.
Indeed, I didn't expect E-M78 to be more common than E-M123 either but it is. E-M78 is mostly E-V22 and E-V12, while E-V13 occurs in rather small frequencies. I don't know for certain, but the PPNB-C (E-M78) alleged sample is basal (M78*) so I doubt it's ancestral to any E-M78 Lebanese. So E-M78 might be tied to something else here, something later than (or contemporary to) PPN, but not too recent.
The 2 main scenarios of E-M78's arrival in my mind are these:

1) E-M78's presence in the Levant could be a signature of the contact between late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic cultures of Egypt and the Levant. The geneflow from the Levant to Egypt could have also went both ways between the two populations, but it wouldn't affect the Levant as much due to the larger and denser sedentary population, as Egypt would have been largely settled by more HG-oriented peoples. If there was any significant contribution it would have been further diluted with the mixing of Southern and Northern Levantines throughout the Bronze age, as many have pointed out.

2) E-M78 is largely tied to Egyptian contact and presence in the BA & IA Levant, linking it with Egyptian merchants traveling and eventually settling in the region during the process. The presence of E-M78 in inland areas could be explained by insignificant admixing between populations of the two regions in antiquity. Iraqi E-M78 could well be linked to IA Arameans migrants.

I think both scenarios have truth to them. Some E-M78, the larger amount, is likely to be more ancient, Chalcolithic-linked, and some from an Egyptian source in known history. But after all we can't be certain here without more ancient DNA from the Levant and Egypt, and Mesopotamia, from all periods so we can assert our points. For now we'll just have to wait :)

drobbah
03-15-2021, 12:32 AM
I still haven't seen any Lebanese E-V32+ samples even though there's plenty of them in the Southern Levant (Jordan/Palestine) probably due to Egyptian/Nubian soldiers and merchants settling there considering the tmrca for the lone yfull uploaded Jordanian sample is quite old.

How common is other E-V12 subclades in the Lebanese?

Agamemnon
03-15-2021, 01:31 AM
Any information on that Southern Shi'ite ZS2434?

maroco
03-15-2021, 05:29 AM
J2a the original Lebanese people

Lupriac
03-15-2021, 12:57 PM
Most E-V12 Lebanese are E-CTS693 with a minority being predicted as E-FGC51357, which seems to be exclusive to the Arabian peninsula, but it also has a very old TMRCA (~9000 ybp). I have seen one E-V32 Lebanese on 23&me but in Zalloua 2007 I haven't found one yet, I believe.

There's no further information from the study about the southern Shiite J-Y3088, but Nevgen seems to be pretty confident he's J-ZS2435 (98.5%) from the STR values available in the study.

td120
03-15-2021, 04:20 PM
Lupriac, any more info on North Maronite: G2b M3115 ? STR-s available ? Thank you !

Helves
03-15-2021, 05:36 PM
Indeed, I didn't expect E-M78 to be more common than E-M123 either but it is. E-M78 is mostly E-V22 and E-V12, while E-V13 occurs in rather small frequencies. I don't know for certain, but the PPNB-C (E-M78) alleged sample is basal (M78*) so I doubt it's ancestral to any E-M78 Lebanese. So E-M78 might be tied to something else here, something later than (or contemporary to) PPN, but not too recent.
The 2 main scenarios of E-M78's arrival in my mind are these:

1) E-M78's presence in the Levant could be a signature of the contact between late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic cultures of Egypt and the Levant. The geneflow from the Levant to Egypt could have also went both ways between the two populations, but it wouldn't affect the Levant as much due to the larger and denser sedentary population, as Egypt would have been largely settled by more HG-oriented peoples. If there was any significant contribution it would have been further diluted with the mixing of Southern and Northern Levantines throughout the Bronze age, as many have pointed out.

2) E-M78 is largely tied to Egyptian contact and presence in the BA & IA Levant, linking it with Egyptian merchants traveling and eventually settling in the region during the process. The presence of E-M78 in inland areas could be explained by insignificant admixing between populations of the two regions in antiquity. Iraqi E-M78 could well be linked to IA Arameans migrants.

I think both scenarios have truth to them. Some E-M78, the larger amount, is likely to be more ancient, Chalcolithic-linked, and some from an Egyptian source in known history. But after all we can't be certain here without more ancient DNA from the Levant and Egypt, and Mesopotamia, from all periods so we can assert our points. For now we'll just have to wait :)

I agree with you if M78 is not related to the Levantine PPN then those two scenarios make the most sense. Of the few Assyrian men I've seen who have gotten tested further with yfull/ftdna I've found both E-V22 and E-V12 so it's not just restricted to Iraqi Arabs, although M123 seems to be more common overall.

Lupriac
03-15-2021, 05:39 PM
Lupriac, any more info on North Maronite: G2b M3115 ? STR-s available ? Thank you !

STR values in FTDNA format: 13,23,16,10,0-0,0,12,12,14,11,31,0,0-0,0,0,0,16,0,0,0-0-0-0,0,0,0-0,0,0,0,0,0-0,0,10

Lupriac
03-19-2021, 05:43 PM
Delete

Lupriac
05-06-2021, 04:07 PM
The newest study by D.E. Platt released 1,406 samples Lebanese from all around, though they didn't provide STR or SNP terminal data. There is STR markers however in another excel sheet that includes other sampled West Asians and Egyptians. In that excel sheet I was able to find an E-V32 and an E2-M75, though no background info is included. There's also 18 individuals listed as "F(*) M89", not sure what they could be.

Lupriac
05-06-2021, 04:10 PM
In Haber et al. 2011 there's a Maronite individual from Mount Lebanon labeled as "F(xGxHxIxJ) M89" who is H2-P96: 13,23,15,10,12-14,11,12,11,13,11,29,16,0-0,0,0,0,14,19,0,0-0-0-0,0,12,0-0,15,0,0,0,0-0,0,10,0,0,0-0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0-0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,21

Lupriac
05-22-2021, 10:44 AM
I want to fix some mistakes

South Shiites: n = 118

4 E-M123 (E1b1b1b2+)
1 E-Z841 or E-M84
1 E-Z841
1 E-M84
1 E-Y14899
1 E-M123


1 E-M84>> PF6748
1 E-M84>> FT81636
1 E-M84
1 E-M123


4 R-M343 (R1b)
2 R-Z2103
1 R-V1636
1 R-M343

One mistakenly R-Z2103 is in fact R-V88. The other R-M343 is labeled as R1/-b*, that should be an interesting branch.



1 Sample is either E-M123* or E-V13. Likely E-M123*.

Also wrong, the sample is labeled in the material as E3b*(xE3b1,E3b2,E3b3,E3b/-5), and it's E-Z830(xM123), E-V1515.