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View Full Version : CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 ISOGG Haplotree Listing Application



Joe B
05-30-2014, 06:57 AM
Contact has been made and an application is in hand for listing SNPs CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 to the ISOGG R-tree. We are lucky that smal has agreed to handle the actual application with an able assist from byrgian. Thanks guys!

They still need help finding CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 test results, those haplotypes may be hiding in FTDNA surname or geographic projects. Please post any missed here. CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 negative from Sanger sequencing (single SNP test) are very important too.

Just as important if not more so, do you know of any pending SNP tests for CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219? Any STR upgrades for CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 haplotypes? Geolocke is a good example of someone waiting for CTS7822 results and keeping everyone informed.
Still waiting on my CTS7822 results. I ordered from FTDNA on April 29. FTDNA has changed the way they report pending results. On the Kit page, Pending Results tells me 2 - 6 weeks (instead of a date), but on the PM page (GAP) I still see the date of June 19. I guess it's better not to report predicted results dates if there's a chance of having to change that date. In the mean time, I'm dreaming of SNPs test and ways to get new kits to join my projects. Patience may be a virtue, but I sure wish I could have the results *now*! :)

Getting CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 peer reviewed and ISOGG listed is very important in light of what happened to the FTDNA tree. It's essential to encouraging people to test and research for this subclade.





108347 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project England CTS7822+, F672, Geno2.0, L150-, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-
247019 Ware Surname Project North Carolina CTS7822+, Geno2.0
257843 Jewish DNA Project ungrouped Unknown CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Z2103+, Z2105+, Geno2.0
272057 Ireland Project Ireland? CTS7822+, Geno2.0
278024 Polish Project Poland CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0
289628 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno 2.0
300134 JewishGen Scandinavia SIG DNA Project Finland CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0
314859 Bulgarian Project Bulgaria CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno 2.0
H1614 Italy Project Italy CTS7822+, Chomo 2
H1621 Italy Project Italy CTS7822+, Predicted
N112116 Bulgarian Project Bulgaria CTS7822+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-, Big Y
N112516 Italy DNA Project Italy CTS7822+, Geno2.0 strs?
N112689 Russia DNA Project Russian Federation CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0
N114393 White Surname Project Unknown CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0 strs?
N115142 German DNA Project Germany CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0
N115176/N98739 Greek DNA Project Greece CTS7822+, Geno2.0, L150+, L23+, L584-
N115870 French Heritage Project CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0 strs?
N116170 Arcadia Project Greece CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0 strs?
N118997 Poland Project Poland CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0 strs?
N24004 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project USA W. Virginia CTS7822+, CTS9219+, Geno2.0
N29277 Italy DNA Project Italy CTS7822+, Geno2.0

Sanger sequencing
107114 Bennett DNA Project USA Mass CTS7822+
176123 Bashqort Clans Project Poland CTS7822+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-
248252 Bulgaria Project Macedonia CTS7822+, Z2103+
261086 Poland Project Polish? CTS7822+, Z2103+
287943 CTS7822+
N66406 Iberian Project Spain CTS7822+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-


248268 Bulgarian Project Greece CTS7822-
248301 Bulgarian Project Macedonia CTS7822-
257842 R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) Project CTS7822-

Mis
05-30-2014, 10:17 AM
261086 zamówiono CT9219

Joe B
05-30-2014, 04:36 PM
261086 zamówiono CTS9219
Welcome to Anthrogenica and thanks for your testing. 262086 is an important haplotype for listing CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219. M269+, Z2103+, CTS7822+, P53-, CTS9219 in the lab and 111 STRs, that's just excellent.
Please join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project if you haven't already.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new,ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

brygian
05-30-2014, 08:25 PM
If I have understood the listing criteria correctly, for adding CTS7822 on the ISOGG tree, we need:


2 men who are Z2103+, Z2105+ and CTS7822+, confirmed by Sanger sequencing.
1 man who is Z2103+, Z2105+ and CTS7822-, confirmed by Sanger sequencing. Or somebody who is L584+, CTS7822- or L277+, CTS7822-.
The genetic distance between the two CTS7822+ men should be at least 5 in fewer than 75 STR markers or at least 7% in more STR markers.


FTDNA kits 176123 and N66406 have tested Z2103+, Z2105+, CTS7822+ and have genetic distance of [email protected] STRs while YSEQ kit 85 is Z2103+, Z2105+, CTS7822-. That alone should suffice for adding CTS7822/Z2110 on the tree but all other data should be included in the application form in order to add more weight.

Similarly, for CTS9219 we need two CTS7822+, CTS9219+ men and one CTS7822+, CTS9219- where the first two should have GD of at least 5 in 74 or less STRs.

YSEQ kit 285 has CTS7822+ and CTS9219+. We are waiting for FTDNA 176123's CTS9219 results or alternatively we can involve somebody who has taken Geno 2.0 or Chromo2 and is CTS9219+. The grater problem is to find somebody who is CTS7822+, CTS9219- tested with the Sanger sequencing method.

brygian
05-30-2014, 08:34 PM
1 man who is Z2103+, Z2105+ and CTS7822-, confirmed by Sanger sequencing. Or somebody who is L584+, CTS7822- or L277+, CTS7822-.


Actually it is obligatory to find people who are:


L584+, CTS7822-
L277+, CTS7822-


This is needed since we need to prove that CTS7822 is not downstream of any of these. But since 176123 and N66406 are L584- and L277-, it is clear that CTS7822 is not on the same branch.

smal
05-30-2014, 09:00 PM
We have few L584+ CTS7822- and L277+ CTS7822- NGS tested samples.
But L150.2!+, CTS7822- samples are not available because the R-L150.2! subclade does not exist in a reality. We can find few L150.2!+ samples under CTS7822+ but they do not form subclade.

Joe B
05-30-2014, 09:16 PM
We have few L584+ CTS7822- and L277+ CTS7822- NGS tested samples.
But L150.2!+, CTS7822- samples are not available because the R-L150.2! subclade does not exist in a reality. We can find few L150.2!+ samples under CTS7822+ but they do not form subclade. Is there enough evidence to delist L150.2! from the R-tree. 108347 results are very compelling evidence with both Geno 2.0 and Sanger sequenceing. CTS7822+, Geno2.0, L150-, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpRPrivNotes.html

brygian
06-01-2014, 02:17 PM
Searching for "CTS7822" at https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/ourstory/allstories shows that there are 32 CTS7822+ and below people with stories on the Geno website. There might be additional CTS7822+ and below people without stories. Obviously, not all of them have transferred results to FTDNA. Unfortunately I can't come in contact with them.

Joe B
06-03-2014, 05:49 PM
Spotted a few new CTS7822/Z2110+ results. In the German (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?vgroup=germany&section=ycolorized) and R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)projects with 111 STRs and a lot of good Sanger sequencing is #145692. Another interesting one is in the Probasco/Bartoszewski/Bartos DNA Study Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). The SNPs are not visible for #11746, but the haplogroup label is R-CTS9219 in green. Note the STR diversity for DYS19 for this surname project.

Geolocke
06-03-2014, 06:28 PM
I Just receive my CTS7822 results today (Positive). That makes 8 of us in our little subclade of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) aka ht35 Project who have tested positive for CTS7822. Seymour, Coat, Bennett and I are coordinating our testing efforts so that each one of us tests for our particular surname. Seymour has tested negative for CTS9219 (and all SNPs under CTS9219,) and CTS699. He is now concentrating on testing the remaining SNPs under CTS7822 to verify that his terminal SNP is CTS7822. Will post more news as it becomes available.

Joe B
06-04-2014, 04:53 AM
I Just receive my CTS7822 results today (Positive). That makes 8 of us in our little subclade of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) aka ht35 Project who have tested positive for CTS7822. Seymour, Coat, Bennett and I are coordinating our testing efforts so that each one of us tests for our particular surname. Seymour has tested negative for CTS9219 (and all SNPs under CTS9219,) and CTS699. He is now concentrating on testing the remaining SNPs under CTS7822 to verify that his terminal SNP is CTS7822. Will post more news as it becomes available.
Thanks for coordinating the Seymour, Coat, Bennett and Locke surname projects. There hasn't been a lot of work with surnames and R1b-Z2103, so double thanks.
Seymour (108347) is an important haplotype with L23+ and L150- just to make it more interesting. I think smal was first to identify F672 as a potential Geno 2.0 terminal SNP on a R1b-Z2103 tree last January. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny/page8&p=26401#post26401 The Morley Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies (http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny) tree picked up on F672 for #108347 too. See line 2190 on page 45 of Chris Morley's tree.
Maybe smal can update us on F672 since it was left off his most recent tree.

Geolocke
06-08-2014, 07:19 PM
I was just looking over my kit's STR matches and I noticed that FTDNA has made a subtle change to the matches Display page. Previously, the matches page only displayed the Haplogroup of the matches (proven or estimated), but now they have added another field next to the Haplogroup displaying the terminal SNP of the matching kit where tested.

This could be another method of looking for CTS7822 matches and other SNPs. I set my matches on 12 STR markers (the greatest number of matches) and then sorted by Terminal SNP and my kit only shows three CTS7822 matches, Bennett, Ware, & Seymour. This method is a little cumbersome since it must be done manually, but it might produce a few more kits if folks searched their 12STR matches in this manner.

Thoughts?

2Bellies
06-11-2014, 03:13 PM
I received my CTS7822 results today and am positive. My original 67-marker results can be found at FTDNA as kit number 321758. At this point I am M269+, U106-, P312-, L21-, Z2103+, and Z2110/CTS7822+. Yesterday I ordered the BIG-Y and we will see were we go from there.

Pillar_of_fire
06-11-2014, 08:06 PM
Shooting in the dark - I ordered BIG Y for kit 331351 he represents the Y-DNA of one of my 4th great grandparents. He is 3rd cousin 1R. Interesting what will come out. I have tested him only Y12. I hoped there will be sale on Y67.... Whatever.... the BIG Y is on sale - so be it - BIG Y. :)B)

next time if Y67 is on sale, or next year...

I have jointed his kit to ht35 project...

brygian
06-11-2014, 08:16 PM
Shooting in the dark - I ordered BIG Y for kit 331351 he represents the Y-DNA of one of my 4th great grandparents. He is 3rd cousin 1R. Interesting what will come out. I have tested him only Y12. I hoped there will be sale on Y67.... Whatever.... the BIG Y is on sale - so be it - BIG Y. :)B)

next time if Y67 is on sale, or next year...

I have jointed his kit to ht35 project...

His results may give us clues about the rest of the presumed Z2103+ guys at the Bulgarian project with only base testing.

Pillar_of_fire
06-11-2014, 08:25 PM
His results may give us clues about the rest of the presumed Z2103+ guys at the Bulgarian project with only base testing.

We have a Z2103- kit in BG project tested Geno2.0 and Y67 - 274480.

He is also on the ht35 project , because initially we though he will be Z2103+, but he turned out another interesting branch
L23- L49+

PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+

So I wonder 331351 which way will go - Z2103+ or PF7558+ ? Any bets?

Geolocke
06-11-2014, 09:45 PM
We have a Z2103- kit in BG project tested Geno2.0 and Y67 - 274480.

He is also on the ht35 project , because initially we though he will be Z2103+, but he turned out another interesting branch
L23- L49+

PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+

So I wonder 331351 which way will go - Z2103+ or PF7558+ ? Any bets?

Seems just about every time it looks likes this branch is getting sorted out, here comes another curveball. That sure keeps things interesting though.:)

Joe B
06-14-2014, 05:55 AM
We have a Z2103- kit in BG project tested Geno2.0 and Y67 - 274480.

He is also on the ht35 project , because initially we though he will be Z2103+, but he turned out another interesting branch
L23- L49+

PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+

So I wonder 331351 which way will go - Z2103+ or PF7558+ ? Any bets?

308331 is L49+ from 23andme and FTDNA has him L23-, PF7563-.
Guessing on the 12 STRs of 331351 is a gamble, so I'll wager he is L584.
Just ordered the Big Y for 257842. Z2109+, Z2110/CTS7822- seems to be a new branch that needs to be confirmed and explored for SNP discovery. Should be interesting to find out what SNPs are shared with you guys, the Z2110/CTS7822 group. Thanks Goldschlager for the coupon.

Geolocke
06-15-2014, 02:49 AM
working strictly from FTDNA's new Y-R Haplo tree, do y'all know of anyone who has tested with the following results?: CTS7822+ > CTS9219- but CTS699+

Pillar_of_fire
06-15-2014, 05:39 AM
Working on the matching page of Nochev
Nochev is CTS7822+ CTS9219- CTS699-
Ware and Nochev have difference in know SNP CTS4923 PF2571 PR5010 Z2001 --> so Ware is CTS7822+ CTS9219- CTS699-
Probasco and Nochev have difference in known SNP CTS1450 CTS9219 PR5010 --> so Probasco is CTS7822+ CTS9219+ CTS699-

this is my feedback

Joe B
06-15-2014, 06:13 PM
working strictly from FTDNA's new Y-R Haplo tree, do y'all know of anyone who has tested with the following results?: CTS7822+ > CTS9219- but CTS699+
CTS699 positives came from 1000 Genomes (http://www.1000genomes.org/home) HGO1277 (Columbian) and Rootsi et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html) 16881 (Kurdish Jew). I don't think anybody has tested CTS7822+, CTS699+ at FTDNA yet. smal has got these two in his phylogenetic trees.

The STRs for 1000 Genomes
http://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/ftp/technical/working/20140107_chrY_str_haplotypes/YSTRs_PowerPLexY23_1000Y_QA_20130107.txt

brygian
06-15-2014, 06:37 PM
CTS699 positives came from 1000 Genomes (http://www.1000genomes.org/home) HGO1277 (Columbian) and Rootsi et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html) 16881 (Kurdish Jew). I don't think anybody has tested CTS7822+, CTS699+ at FTDNA yet. smal has got these two in his phylogenetic trees.

The STRs for 1000 Genomes
http://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/ftp/technical/working/20140107_chrY_str_haplotypes/YSTRs_PowerPLexY23_1000Y_QA_20130107.txt

Do we also have STRs for those who are CTS7822 and CTS9219?

arperrymd
06-18-2014, 03:33 PM
Do we also have STRs for those who are CTS7822 and CTS9219?

I have recently tested positive for both CTS7822 and CTS9219 from Geno 2.0. I should receive my Big Y results in about 8 weeks. I'm on the Perry Surname project and will join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project later today. FTDNA Kit 271283.

Silesian
06-18-2014, 03:43 PM
I have recently tested positive for both CTS7822 and CTS9219 from Geno 2.0. I should receive my Big Y results in about 8 weeks. I'm on the Perry Surname project and will join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project later today. FTDNA Kit 271283.
Welcome to the forum.

Geolocke
06-18-2014, 04:59 PM
We have another order for CTS7822 in this Locke Surname project. He is my "genetic cousin" and we match 63/67 on STR values, but we have not yet connected our family lines on paper.

I trace my line back to Philadelphia in the 1690's (shortly after the founding of the Pennsylvania Colony) but I have not yet found the ancestor who came over from the Old Country. My genetic cousin's line goes back to Chittlehampton, Devonshire England in the early 1600's, but his family did not come to the US until the 1870's so there is a minimum 180 year separation between our lines back to our MRCA.

Current estimates places our MRCA around 1500+/-. We've matched on all SNP's that we have tested so far, so there is no reason to suspect that he will not match on CTS7822.

This forum is named "R1b Early Subclades, but I am assuming that this is in reference to placement on the tree and not necessarily placement in time. Still, from what I've seen in this and other forum's it appears that this may be a very old (i.e. early) branching from R1b's root.

With all that being said, has anyone come up with any preliminary estimate ("guess-timate") of when this branch (Z2103>CTS7822) would have been formed?

I apologize if I am not using the proper terminology to ask my question.

Joe B
06-18-2014, 07:47 PM
I have recently tested positive for both CTS7822 and CTS9219 from Geno 2.0. I should receive my Big Y results in about 8 weeks. I'm on the Perry Surname project and will join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project later today. FTDNA Kit 271283.
Welcome to Anthrogenica and thank you in advance for joining the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx). You will be placed is the _b3a. R1b-M269: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+/Z2110+ CTS9219+ group shortly after you join the project. The project groupings will be getting an overhaul very soon. So, the _b3a. and color could change for your group, your haplogroup should stay the same.....for now.
Your ordering the Big Y is a big deal. Having several NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) test results from the R1b-CTS7822 branch should add a great deal of granularity to this area of the tree.

Thanks again for your comprehensive Y-DNA testing.
Joe

brygian
06-22-2014, 09:47 PM
I have recently tested positive for both CTS7822 and CTS9219 from Geno 2.0. I should receive my Big Y results in about 8 weeks. I'm on the Perry Surname project and will join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project later today. FTDNA Kit 271283.

As pointed on another forum, you seem to belong to the Balkan cluster. This ySearch (http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=&freeentry=true&L1=0&L2=0&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0&L6=11&L7=11&L8=12&L9=12&L10=0&L11=0&L12=13&L13=0&L14=0&L15=8&L16=0&L17=0&L18=11&L19=0&L20=0&L21=19&L22=0&L23=0&L24=0&L25=0&L26=0&L27=0&L28=0&L29=0&L30=0&L31=0&L32=0&L33=0&L34=0&L35=0&L36=0&L37=0&L38=0&L39=0&L40=0&L41=0&L54=0&L55=0&L56=0&L57=0&L58=0&L59=0&L60=0&L61=0&L62=0&L63=0&L42=0&L64=0&L65=0&L66=0&L67=0&L68=0&L69=0&L70=0&L71=0&L49=0&L72=0&L73=0&L51=0&L74=0&L75=0&L76=0&L77=0&L78=0&L79=0&L80=0&L43=0&L44=0&L45=0&L46=0&L47=0&L48=0&L50=0&L52=0&L53=0&L81=0&L82=0&L83=0&L84=0&L85=0&L86=0&L87=0&L88=0&L89=0&L90=0&L91=0&L92=0&L93=0&L94=0&L95=0&L96=0&L97=0&L98=0&L99=0&L100=0&min_markers=8&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=0&mismatches_sliding_starting_marker=8&recaptcha_challenge_field=03AHJ_VuspXP7-LKg8Q8tpnp7vWXALas8LRyA-Pi5CF70WnrcSHWDBuOTDEFCyFF8efMxZa2t79fXGCL9DOZZAA9 QVWd1i9n9Qo5-gAR77Wo4Eb8z4SewnazqjBiFu_EHivp1AkqN19SQz6lvSUEcOf 2BHubTh1iFsvL_L5IU4FVEQGnr5Mom69l9Z4t4idjakGastJAp JHik2GHnI1uFM_GMxyV-S_LhNo69ck31lUTxgY95RNCiLqaTRU8jhK6Z_Q_3XQz64I4YyA n_nhOUPK7y4fBeWzfqLMA&recaptcha_response_field=285&haplo=&region=) should give results for other people in the same cluster. It still feels that there is some "noise" but you'll get a lot of matches from the Balkans. This works for people who have tested at least 25 STR markers.

If I took Big Y, it would be very very interesting to compare our results. Unfortunately I am not ordering Big Y. At least not yet.

EDIT: The ySearch link doesn't seem to work after some time. You enter manually DYS385a=11, DYS385b=11, DYS426= 12, DYS388=12, DYS392=13, DYS459a=8, DYS454=11, DYS448=19.

brygian
06-24-2014, 05:52 PM
How is it going with the application form? Do we have a draft already?

smal
06-24-2014, 08:38 PM
It is almost ready, but now there is a lot of work with the R1b1a2 project grouping.

brygian
06-24-2014, 09:11 PM
It is almost ready, but now there is a lot of work with the R1b1a2 project grouping.

This is my information:


Source: R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)

Marker Haplogroup Terminal SNP before CTS7822/Z2110 Terminal SNP after CTS7822/Z2110 FTDNA Kit # Allele
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 → CTS7822 N66406 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* M269 → Z2103 M269 → Z2103 → CTS7822 47778 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 → CTS7822 108347 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 → CTS7822 N112116 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* Z2103 Z2103 → CTS7822 248252 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* Z2103 Z2103 → CTS7822 321758 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 L23, L150 → Z2103, Z2105 → CTS7822 → CTS9219 257843 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* L23, L150 → Z2105 L23, L150 → Z2105 → CTS7822 145692 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2a Z2103, Z2105 NA ? A-
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2b Z2103, Z2105 NA ? A-
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2c Z2103, Z2105 NA ? A-


Source: R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades

Marker Haplogroup Terminal SNP before CTS7822/Z2110 Terminal SNP after CTS7822/Z2110 YSEQ Kit # Allele
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* Z2105 Z2105 → CTS7822 → CTS9219 285 T+
CTS7822/Z2110 R1b1a2a2* Z2105 NA 85 A-


The only information that I can't find is in red - people who are on the same level as CTS7822 but have tested negative for it.

brygian
06-25-2014, 09:21 PM
I still haven't found somebody who is L584+ but CTS7822-, somebody who is L277+ but CTS7822- and somebody who is L150.2+ but CTS7822-. The both SNP test results should be publicly visible on either FTDNA or YSEQ. Any help is appreciated.

brygian
06-27-2014, 07:39 PM
This seems to be a newly confirmed CTS7822+:

237225 COAT Thomas (Coat-51) 1599 Somerset Eng United Kingdom R-CTS7822 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 19 30 14-14-15-18 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 18 39-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 11 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 14 10 10 22 15 19 12 24 19 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 10 11 11

He seems to be CTS9219-

Geolocke
06-27-2014, 11:07 PM
Coat is part of our new "Bristol Channel DNA Project" which is (in part) concetrating on CTS7822 in England. Coat and Seymour have both tested out 111 markers.

bcn440
06-30-2014, 10:47 AM
I ordered the Big Y for Kit N66406 on June 10. FTDNA says that expected awaiting time is 4-6 weeks

nprobasco
06-30-2014, 12:39 PM
Spotted a few new CTS7822/Z2110+ results. In the German (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?vgroup=germany§ion=ycolorized) and R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)projects with 111 STRs and a lot of good Sanger sequencing is #145692. Another interesting one is in the Probasco/Bartoszewski/Bartos DNA Study Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). The SNPs are not visible for #11746, but the haplogroup label is R-CTS9219 in green. Note the STR diversity for DYS19 for this surname project.

Kit# 11746 has now joined the project.

smal
06-30-2014, 01:03 PM
Kit# 11746 has now joined the project.
Welcome to the forum and project. I have recently published the SNP tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822&p=42691&viewfull=1#post42691) that includes your kit.

menlo
07-09-2014, 11:22 PM
Hi - 1st post, trying to understand what I paid for from the Geno2.0 project....

I uploaded the info to FTDNA and it came back: Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-CTS9219. I'm not sure which forum is most appropriate for subsequent postings, nor do I understand the next test I should take. Any guidance is most appreciated!

2Bellies
07-09-2014, 11:30 PM
Just tested positive for R-CTS9219...what do you need from me?

2Bellies
07-09-2014, 11:33 PM
Results: L265+, L278+, L350+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L585+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L779+, L82+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P316+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, V241+, V250+, Z2103+, CTS7822+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3358+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS4244+, CTS7822+, CTS9219+, F1209+, F313+, F3692+, F719+, F82+, L104+, L132+, L138+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L25-, F2610-, U106-, P312-, L21-, CTS9230-, CTS9906-, CTS9940-, CTS7959-, CTS8563-, CTS2791-, CTS1039-, CTS11767-

brygian
07-10-2014, 12:17 AM
Hi - 1st post, trying to understand what I paid for from the Geno2.0 project....

I uploaded the info to FTDNA and it came back: Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-CTS9219. I'm not sure which forum is most appropriate for subsequent postings, nor do I understand the next test I should take. Any guidance is most appreciated!

Hi and welcome to the forum. I suggest you join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/). There is not much you can test after Geno 2.0. One option is the expensive BigY test, another is to test several SNPs under CTS9219 not tested with Geno 2.0 but they are not offered by FTDNA either. They can eventually be ordered from YSEQ. You can also order STR markers.

There is no dedicated forum thread for CTS9219 yet but since it is a subclade of CTS7822, the From R-L150 to R-CTS7822 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822) thread would be appropriate.

BTW, what is your FTDNA kit number?

brygian
07-10-2014, 12:24 AM
Just tested positive for R-CTS9219...what do you need from me?

That's a very good news. The CTS9219 family is growing. For a start, what is your FTDNA kit number?

2Bellies
07-10-2014, 02:44 AM
Kit Nr: 321758

Joe B
07-10-2014, 04:53 AM
Hi - 1st post, trying to understand what I paid for from the Geno2.0 project....

I uploaded the info to FTDNA and it came back: Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-CTS9219. I'm not sure which forum is most appropriate for subsequent postings, nor do I understand the next test I should take. Any guidance is most appreciated!Just wanted to echo the welcome from brygian. You can see where CTS9219 sits in the phylogenetic trees on the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx) background page. Let us know if you are not in the _b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+ group. How many STRs are you testing?

Pillar_of_fire
07-10-2014, 06:15 AM
308331 is L49+ from 23andme and FTDNA has him L23-, PF7563-.
Guessing on the 12 STRs of 331351 is a gamble, so I'll wager he is L584.
Just ordered the Big Y for 257842. Z2109+, Z2110/CTS7822- seems to be a new branch that needs to be confirmed and explored for SNP discovery. Should be interesting to find out what SNPs are shared with you guys, the Z2110/CTS7822 group. Thanks Goldschlager for the coupon.

Results for 331351 are in.

He matches Probasco and Michael B Novel Variants 68 and known SNP difference 0, James Black at 67 Novel and Known SNP difference 2, Dmitri Badia - 62 Novel and Known SNP difference 2, Nochev at Novel 56 and Known SNP difference 3

Pillar_of_fire
07-10-2014, 06:16 AM
331351 is defined as CTS9219

Pillar_of_fire
07-10-2014, 06:21 AM
3 BIG Y results were released on 09.07.2014 - Velev, Michael B, James Black

2Bellies
07-10-2014, 12:28 PM
Previously tested 67-STRs at FTDNA. Results are in kit 321758.

morrisondna
07-10-2014, 12:56 PM
3 BIG Y results were released on 09.07.2014 - Velev, Michael B, James Black
Does anyone have any info on the turnaround time on Big Y tests these days?

Pillar_of_fire
07-10-2014, 02:18 PM
I have ordered two tests --> both batched on 12.06.2014 (there was available sample with FTDNA) - results for one of them came in yesterday - - so less than a month, the other is expected in '4-6 weeks'

brygian
07-10-2014, 02:34 PM
Previously tested 67-STRs at FTDNA. Results are in kit 321758.

The CTS9219 result isn't a surprise - you have DYS446=14. I have recommended the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project administrators grouping all DYS446=14 people in the 'should test CTS9219' subgroup.

All confirmed CTS9219+ have DYS446=14 while all confirmed CTS7822+, CTS9219- have DYS446=13. Kits N66406, 261086, 145692, 176123 and 287943 should also be CTS9219+ while kits 237225, 107114 and 47778 should be CTS9219-. Then we also know that kits 248252, 248271 and 184355 are CTS9219+ too. The Ossetian project has two candidates with DYS446=14 too: 159888 and 285531. They also have one DYS446=15 which I haven't seen before - kit 258791.

smal, do you know if the Ossetian guys, and especially 258791, are going to order CTS9219?

menlo
07-10-2014, 03:06 PM
Kit #: N126641.

Thanks for the info! A few more questions:

1. I've seen a number of sites with details that list "DYS" numbers. Did I get that via FTDNA, or are they from specific tests?
2. FTDNA had a number of SNPs to add (CTS11767 + more, L25, CTS9940, PF3928, F2610, CTS1039, CTS2791, CTS8563). At $39 each, is there a specific one to start with, or is there a test that would capture all of them (e.g., BigY)?
3. What information would one of those SNPs provide? More detail about my family migration (GPS coordinates, so to speak)?

Thanks - and sorry for the amateur questions....

brygian
07-10-2014, 03:27 PM
Kit #: N126641.

Thanks for the info! A few more questions:

1. I've seen a number of sites with details that list "DYS" numbers. Did I get that via FTDNA, or are they from specific tests?
2. FTDNA had a number of SNPs to add (CTS11767 + more, L25, CTS9940, PF3928, F2610, CTS1039, CTS2791, CTS8563). At $39 each, is there a specific one to start with, or is there a test that would capture all of them (e.g., BigY)?
3. What information would one of those SNPs provide? More detail about my family migration (GPS coordinates, so to speak)?

Thanks - and sorry for the amateur questions....

In order to get the DYS or so numbers, you need to take a STR test. FTDNA offers Y-DNA12, 25, 37, 67 and 111 STR marker tests. BigY supposedly covers all (or most) SNPs that may give you some useful info but the technology is not very mature yet and you cannot be 100% sure that all known (or unknown) SNPs will be covered completely. You don't need to order the SNPs under CTS9219 at FTDNA since you've already been tested negative for them. I just posted some info about what could be tested by CTS9219+ people in the neighboring thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822&p=45063&viewfull=1#post45063).

STR (those DYS values) are useful when you want to compare your results to other people and want to see how closely related you are. They can also be used for predicting your haplogroup (which you already know) and for estimating the age of haplogroups. SNPs are more stable and give your haplogroup. Tests like BigY and FGC's have the potential of determining your relatedness to other people too. If these terms are not clear to you, you can check the ISOGG wiki which is very useful: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Wiki_Welcome_Page

Joe B
07-10-2014, 07:36 PM
Results for 331351 are in.

He matches Probasco and Michael B Novel Variants 68 and known SNP difference 0, James Black at 67 Novel and Known SNP difference 2, Dmitri Badia - 62 Novel and Known SNP difference 2, Nochev at Novel 56 and Known SNP difference 3
The CTS9219 result isn't a surprise - you have DYS446=14. I have recommended the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project administrators grouping all DYS446=14 people in the 'should test CTS9219' subgroup.

All confirmed CTS9219+ have DYS446=14 while all confirmed CTS7822+, CTS9219- have DYS446=13. Kits N66406, 261086, 145692, 176123 and 287943 should also be CTS9219+ while kits 237225, 107114 and 47778 should be CTS9219-. Then we also know that kits 248252, 248271 and 184355 are CTS9219+ too. The Ossetian project has two candidates with DYS446=14 too: 159888 and 285531. They also have one DYS446=15 which I haven't seen before - kit 258791.

smal, do you know if the Ossetian guys, and especially 258791, are going to order CTS9219?

Fire and brygian,
Thanks for the information and help. The Bulgarian Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) has some aggressive testing going on.
N66406 was just moved to the "should test CTS9219" group. Some of the rest need to be recruited to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)). One thing we have to keep in mind is the coincidental relationship between SNPs and STRs. So someday, the DYS446=14 rule for CTS9219+ could be broken. Could there be a DYS446=13 CTS9219+ individual out there?
No information about 258791. Hopefully smal knows something about the Ossetian's testing intentions.

brygian
07-10-2014, 07:58 PM
Joe, you are right - you can never be sure that DYS446=14 guarantees CTS9219+ but statistically it is a good indicator.

Joe B
07-10-2014, 09:00 PM
Kit #: N126641.

Thanks for the info! A few more questions:

1. I've seen a number of sites with details that list "DYS" numbers. Did I get that via FTDNA, or are they from specific tests?
2. FTDNA had a number of SNPs to add (CTS11767 + more, L25, CTS9940, PF3928, F2610, CTS1039, CTS2791, CTS8563). At $39 each, is there a specific one to start with, or is there a test that would capture all of them (e.g., BigY)?
3. What information would one of those SNPs provide? More detail about my family migration (GPS coordinates, so to speak)?

Thanks - and sorry for the amateur questions....
Those are great questions and byrgian is right on. The most important next step for you is STR testing.... to the level you can afford. You may have the possibility of matching on the Surname or geographic level and STRs are very useful for that.

smal
07-11-2014, 07:48 AM
smal, do you know if the Ossetian guys, and especially 258791, are going to order CTS9219?

We are waiting the CTS9219 results from 145692, 152853, 152880, 159888, 239214 and 241746.

brygian
07-18-2014, 06:08 PM
Joe, you are right - you can never be sure that DYS446=14 guarantees CTS9219+ but statistically it is a good indicator.

I did order DYS446 from YSEQ and it is 14 for me too. Along with this STR I got results for 13 more STRs that I hadn't tested before (for free!). YSEQ rocks! You can see the rest of the results in the R-L23 group on YSEQ or on ySearch by clicking the link in my signature.

Silesian
07-20-2014, 08:25 PM
I did order DYS446 from YSEQ and it is 14 for me too.......

Finally results are in; CTS-9219+ [DYS-446 also 14]

smal
07-20-2014, 08:38 PM
90135 Sanchez was tested CTS9219+ and his DYS446=15.

brygian
07-20-2014, 09:20 PM
90135 Sanchez was tested CTS9219+ and his DYS446=15.

He is only the third confirmed CTS9219+ with 111 STRs. Maybe we should send him an e-mail to join the R1b1a2 project. One of the Ossetian guys who is supposed CTS9219+ has DYS446=15 too.

brygian
07-21-2014, 12:07 AM
Have we mentioned that Kubatiev, kit 159888, is CTS9219+ too?

brygian
07-21-2014, 12:36 AM
Have we mentioned that Kubatiev, kit 159888, is CTS9219+ too?

His haplotype is a bit different from the other CTS9219+. He has DYS459b=9 while the other have it 10; DYS520=22 instead of 20; DYS565=11 instead of 12; DYS717=20 instead of 19 and DYS452=31 instead of 30.

The genetic distance between him and 289628 is 32 at 111 STRs. The TMRCA Calculator (http://www.dnacalculator.org/tmrcaCalculator.php) gives a 95% chance that they had a common ancestor within the last 114 generations which is several thousand years ago.

Joe B
07-21-2014, 02:21 AM
He is only the third confirmed CTS9219+ with 111 STRs. Maybe we should send him an e-mail to join the R1b1a2 project. One of the Ossetian guys who is supposed CTS9219+ has DYS446=15 too.Sent a message to the New Mexico DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/newmexicodna/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) Group Administrator requesting that he ask #90135 to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx).

Silesian
07-21-2014, 02:44 AM
His haplotype is a bit different from the other CTS9219+. He has DYS459b=9 while the other have it 10; DYS520=22 instead of 20; DYS565=11 instead of 12; DYS717=20 instead of 19 and DYS452=31 instead of 30.

The genetic distance between him and 289628 is 32 at 111 STRs. The TMRCA Calculator (http://www.dnacalculator.org/tmrcaCalculator.php) gives a 95% chance that they had a common ancestor within the last 114 generations which is several thousand years ago.

99SC2-R-CTS 9219+with tested and untested ysearch + Genetic Distance [GD]
99SC2-DYS-446{14}-Poland[G.D. 0]
NMZ4A-DYS-446{14}-Belarus[G.D. 17/67]
ZXHYQ-DYS-446{14}-Kazakhstan[G.D. 18/67]
GT5PX-DYS-446{15}-Switzerland[G.D. 19/67]
MPCPX-DYS-446{14}-Bulgaria[G.D. 18/37]

all are TMRCA 150 generations from 99SC2 using same TMRCA calculator.

brygian
07-21-2014, 01:00 PM
99SC2-R-CTS 9219+with tested and untested ysearch + Genetic Distance [GD]
99SC2-DYS-446{14}-Poland[G.D. 0]
NMZ4A-DYS-446{14}-Belarus[G.D. 17/67]
ZXHYQ-DYS-446{14}-Kazakhstan[G.D. 18/67]
GT5PX-DYS-446{15}-Switzerland[G.D. 19/67]
MPCPX-DYS-446{14}-Bulgaria[G.D. 18/37]

all are TMRCA 150 generations from 99SC2 using same TMRCA calculator.

Yes, I also get 150+ generations. This should mean that the mutation is several thousand years old and given that some Ossetians belong to this group we can conclude that it originated in the Caucasus region before the large scale migrations westward.

Silesian
07-22-2014, 04:16 PM
Yes, I also get 150+ generations. This should mean that the mutation is several thousand years old and given that some Ossetians belong to this group we can conclude that it originated in the Caucasus region before the large scale migrations westward.
I want to start a thread with R1b-CTS 9219 members posting some Gedmatch results to see if there is anything we share in common say for example with the Ossetians.

ADW_1981
07-22-2014, 04:34 PM
Yes, I also get 150+ generations. This should mean that the mutation is several thousand years old and given that some Ossetians belong to this group we can conclude that it originated in the Caucasus region before the large scale migrations westward.

And yet, the subclades of G2 found in modern Ossetians isn't typically found outside the Caucasus. What this leads me to conclude is that R1b1b2a were a steppe people, where as the J2/G2 groups of the Caucasus were a sedentary farming mountain people who didn't typically move outside their region. There are exceptions to this, perhaps expressed as evidence in the LBK where these people travelled a great distance from their originating point.

Joe B
07-22-2014, 07:44 PM
We are waiting the CTS9219 results from 145692, 152853, 152880, 159888, 239214 and 241746.

Congratulations to three new R1b-CTS9219 haplotypes. #N66406, #241746 and a very important STR 111...#239214. Thanks for testing. Especially smal!

smal
07-22-2014, 08:35 PM
Thanks, Joe! Yesterday I have received e-mail that FTDNA does not have the DNA to complete the analysis... :)

brygian
07-22-2014, 08:52 PM
It turns out that CTS9219 is more common than CTS7822*. I have 26 CTS9219+ on my list and only 7 CTS7822+, CTS9219-. Kits 14386, 261086, 145692, 287943 seem to be CTS9219+ too as well as the Ossetian and the three Balkan cluster Bulgarian guys. Hopefully they will order CTS9219 too.

lgmayka
07-22-2014, 11:08 PM
I wish that the six CTS9219+ men who ordered the Big Y would submit their BAM files to YFull. YFull would almost certainly discern some additional substructure.

Geolocke
07-23-2014, 10:11 AM
I received notice yesterday that Geno2.0 is on sale for US $159. Does Geno2.0 covers the SNPs in the region of CTS7822 > CTS9219? This seems to be a better deal at this time compared to waiting for a more reasonable sale on Big-Y.

brygian
07-23-2014, 11:25 AM
I received notice yesterday that Geno2.0 is on sale for US $159. Does Geno2.0 covers the SNPs in the region of CTS7822 > CTS9219? This seems to be a better deal at this time compared to waiting for a more reasonable sale on Big-Y.

Yes, Geno2 covers CTS7822, CTS9219 and several SNPs below it.

morrisondna
07-23-2014, 04:34 PM
I wish that the six CTS9219+ men who ordered the Big Y would submit their BAM files to YFull. YFull would almost certainly discern some additional substructure.

Lawrence, can you provide more detail on what kind of additional info typically can be provided by YFull and to what extent this is likely to help with substructure as compared to basic Big Y results? With this info, we can encourage more folks to get analysis by YFull.

Thanks,
Edwin

lgmayka
07-23-2014, 04:38 PM
I received notice yesterday that Geno2.0 is on sale for US $159. Does Geno2.0 covers the SNPs in the region of CTS7822 > CTS9219? This seems to be a better deal at this time compared to waiting for a more reasonable sale on Big-Y.
Geno 2.0 uses a microarray, not next-generation sequencing, so it does not cover a region, only individual SNPs. It does, however, test CTS7822 and CTS9219.

lgmayka
07-23-2014, 04:43 PM
Lawrence, can you provide more detail on what kind of additional info typically can be provided by YFull and to what extent this is likely to help with substructure as compared to basic Big Y results?
Yfull provides:
- Placement on YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/), creating new branches as necessary
- All the SNPs you share with someone else in YFull's database (which includes published research examples)
- All of your “private” (unshared) SNPs
- Both SNP lists include SNPs that FTDNA may not catch, and come with a professional analysis as to whether each SNP is reliably and umambiguously read and whether its occurrence is rare enough to be meaningful for classification
- Measurement of over 400 Y-STRs (markers), including at least 100 of FTDNA’s standard 111
- An (almost?) complete list of your mtDNA mutations, along with an assignment to a precise mtDNA subhaplogroup
- All of your raw SNP results, in the form of a database that you can query by name or location.

Note that payment is required only after analysis and tree placement is complete. So theoretically, you can submit your BAM file for placement on the haplotree (including creation of new branches as necessary) for free--as long as you never need to access the other information.

Note also, however, that analysis time has been increasing, presumably due to high demand; so complete analysis may take a month or so.

brygian
07-23-2014, 05:02 PM
If you can afford $699 for BigY, I suppose $49 for YFull won't be a problem. BTW, Full Genomes Corporation has lowered the price of their test to $999. YFull's tree has only CTS7822 so far with no subclades: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

Joe B
07-23-2014, 06:15 PM
I wish that the six CTS9219+ men who ordered the Big Y would submit their BAM files to YFull. YFull would almost certainly discern some additional substructure.

Totally agree with Larry about the value of YFull. I just want to remind everybody CTS7822/Z2110+ or CTS9219+ Big Y tested to contact smal about your BAM files. You wouldn't want to miss out on the tree he is making.
http://s43.radikal.ru/i101/1407/24/dc4b183bdd11.gif

smal
07-23-2014, 06:26 PM
BigY matching utility provides only positive data for Novel Variants. But to convert the BigY information into new branches of the Y tree, we must have negative data for these novel variants and we must separate such negative data from "no call" ones. Only the BAM file analysis can help to do this. But you should understand that new substructure of tree will be founded only after analysis of 2 (better 3) closely related samples.

2Bellies
07-23-2014, 09:19 PM
My BAM file will be submitted at the end of August...currently, I am on a photo expedition for new material for my website. I look forward to seeing what new material will develop from my BAM.

lgmayka
07-23-2014, 09:30 PM
YFull's tree has only CTS7822 so far with no subclades: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/
I assume that YFull needs at least two CTS9219+ examples in order to add that branch to its public haplotree.

Silesian
07-24-2014, 05:16 PM
Yes, I also get 150+ generations. This should mean that the mutation is several thousand years old and given that some Ossetians belong to this group we can conclude that it originated in the Caucasus region before the large scale migrations westward.
Do you know of any plans to test and compare the Erzya-Moksha R1b cluster to see if they fall into the Ossetian R1b-CTS9219 cluster ?
Looks like they have DYS446-12 compared to our 14 and Ossetian 15.

brygian
07-24-2014, 05:21 PM
Do you know of any plans to test and compare the Erzya-Moksha R1b cluster to see if they fall into the Ossetian R1b-CTS9219 cluster ?
Looks like they have DYS446-12 compared to our 14 and Ossetian 15.

I don't have information. Joe and smal may know since they are administrators.

smal
07-24-2014, 06:57 PM
Do you know of any plans to test and compare the Erzya-Moksha R1b cluster to see if they fall into the Ossetian R1b-CTS9219 cluster ?
Looks like they have DYS446-12 compared to our 14 and Ossetian 15.
What is the Erzya-Moksha R1b cluster?

Silesian
07-25-2014, 05:04 AM
What is the Erzya-Moksha R1b cluster?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Erzya-Moksha%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults
3. Meschera (Рязанская/Русская мещера)-project
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 13 12 12 13 28 DYS-446-12

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults
Ossetian project
R-CTS9219 -12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 12 13 29 DYS-446-14

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults
Georgian project
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28DYS-446-13

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_Clans/default.aspx?section=yresults
01. R1b1a2a2, R1b+Z2105, MASSAGETAES-BURYJANS LINE
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 31 ???

Pillar_of_fire
07-25-2014, 01:01 PM
I assume that YFull needs at least two CTS9219+ examples in order to add that branch to its public haplotree.

I ordered analysis of N112116 at YFull - YF01886

I am waiting for the BAM of 331351 who is CTS 9119+ and will submit as it comes in.

brygian
07-25-2014, 08:59 PM
Geno2 transfer N126164 Sabat Joan Gascons, b. <1570, living in 1598 R1b1a1a4a from the R1b1a2 Iberian project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=ysnp) is CTS9219+.

Pillar_of_fire
07-27-2014, 07:14 PM
I ordered analysis of N112116 at YFull - YF01886

I am waiting for the BAM of 331351 who is CTS 9119+ and will submit as it comes in.

So the BAM of 331351 is in and is YF01913

smal
07-28-2014, 01:42 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Erzya-Moksha%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults
3. Meschera (Рязанская/Русская мещера)-project
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 13 12 12 13 28 DYS-446-12

...

These samples do not form a cluster and I think they do not belong to the CTS9219 line. They can be L277, L584 or even Z2106* or Z2103* lines. For example, I think Shlykov should be tested for L277. He can be either R-L277 or R-Z2105*.

Silesian
07-28-2014, 05:15 PM
These samples do not form a cluster and I think they do not belong to the CTS9219 line. They can be L277, L584 or even Z2106* or Z2103* lines. For example, I think Shlykov should be tested for L277. He can be either R-L277 or R-Z2105*.

His location is listed as
Confirmed Haplogroup: R-M269

Subgroup: 3. Meschera (Рязанская/Русская мещера)
Most Distant Ancestor: b.c.1659 (Старое Высокое, Кад. р-н)
Marker Location: Рязанская область, Россия

L277+ in region. all 3 DYS-392-14 and two have DYS-446-14
User ID Origin Markers Compared Genetic Distance
P6A9N Kazminka (Kursk), Russia R1b1a2 (tested) Family Tree DNA - -
X8HRU Vladimir, Russia R1b1a2a (tested) Family Tree DNA Genetic Distance 37/7
KJ8UQ Nazarov Uralsk, Kazakhstan R1b1a2a1 (tested) Family Tree DNA Genetic Distance 37/22



L584+ List origin as unknown. However autosomal show Belorussian.
MDLP World-22 4-Ancestors Oracle

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Belarusian_V @ 3.074102
2 Sorb @ 3.697700
3 Polish_V @ 4.442825
4 Russian_cossack @ 5.109596
5 Russian_V @ 5.197832

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 65.90
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 20.81
3 West-Asian 3.64
4 North-European-Mesolithic 3.48
5 Indo-Iranian 1.98
6 Samoedic 1.94
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North-East-European + German-North + Mordovian + Orcadian @ 1.000033

PYFSG-Unknown R1b1a2a1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 95 0

1 R1b-CTS9219 listed as Chuvash in same region.
, 264013 , (Utrivan), c. 1753 – 1831 chuvash (чуваши/анат енчи) YSEQ CTS7822+ CTS9219+

brygian
07-29-2014, 02:10 PM
261086 Ussorowski is CTS9219+. Expected since DYS446=14. He has 111 STR markers tested too.

brygian
07-29-2014, 02:21 PM
145692 Johannes Ehrhard, abt 1665, Staudernheim, Germany is CTS9219+ too as expected since DYS446=14. Another 111 STR marker haplotype.

2Bellies
07-31-2014, 05:10 PM
As a matter of curiosity, how long does it take to get a reply back from FTDNA re hyperlink to my BAM file?

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2014, 05:16 PM
As a matter of curiosity, how long does it take to get a reply back from FTDNA re hyperlink to my BAM file?

About 1 week give or take 3 days

2Bellies
07-31-2014, 07:18 PM
Thanks for the info.

2Bellies
08-08-2014, 09:44 PM
BAM file link just received so will not submit for further analysis. Note: Although FT shows me as German (father) and Italian (mother) it is a little more complicated than that. According to family oral history and a distant German cousin, we (BLACK) are descended from a Scot who settled in German in the early 1600s. Just repeating this for geographic interest purposes.

Joe B
08-09-2014, 04:54 AM
I ordered analysis of N112116 at YFull - YF01886

I am waiting for the BAM of 331351 who is CTS 9119+ and will submit as it comes in.

Having three new Z2110/CTS7822 haplotypes on the YFull tree is good to see. Does anybody know what happened to R1b-L584 on the YFull Experimental YTree? http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a/

smal
08-09-2014, 06:52 AM
Does anybody know what happened to R1b-L584 on the YFull Experimental YTree? http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a/
They do not have samples for an analysis of the R-L584 branch. They have to study at least 2 L584+ samples to find a new branch.

Geolocke
08-14-2014, 01:28 AM
Quick update on The Bristol Channel Project (CTS7822 in SW Great Britain) we now have 18 Kits representing 8 surnames. 4 lines have confirmed CTS7822+ with 2 more lines currently testing CTS7822. Still looking for more participants of existing and new surnames from Great Britain.

Pillar_of_fire
08-14-2014, 04:33 AM
Having three new Z2110/CTS7822 haplotypes on the YFull tree is good to see. Does anybody know what happened to R1b-L584 on the YFull Experimental YTree? http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a/

to add that 331351 is YF01913

brygian
08-15-2014, 06:45 PM
Two new CTS9219+, both belonging to the Balkan cluster:

84950 Peter or Pietro Ciulla, b.1880s, Sicily (Arberesh) Italy R-CTS9219 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 18 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 13 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 19 9 11 11

248271 Ivan Dimkov (1866-1913) Gorno Brodi, Gr. Mak. Bulgaria CTS9219 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29

brygian
08-16-2014, 05:44 AM
I submitted the application and it seems that it is fine but somebody has applied for PF7589 to be included under Z2103 (wrongly) and now ISOGG is in panic and wants me and the other person to sort this out together.

brygian
08-16-2014, 11:54 AM
FTDNA seems to have messed up kit 253098's (Big Y) results as he is CTS9219+: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J%C2%A7ion=yresults/default.aspx?section=ysnp

brygian
08-16-2014, 12:20 PM
I submitted the application and it seems that it is fine but somebody has applied for PF7589 to be included under Z2103 (wrongly) and now ISOGG is in panic and wants me and the other person to sort this out together.

The issue with PF7589 is resolved. I just noticed these very valuable results and included them in the application:

16910 Thomas Robinson (d 1741 Henrico Co., VA) United Kingdom CTS7822 12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 19 18 36-40 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12 34 16 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 22 14 10 10 21 15 19 12 24 18 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 10 11 11

82745 Thomas Peed, b.c. 1792, Perquimans, North Carolina Unknown Origin CTS7822 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 16 16 37-38 12 13 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 26 26 20 12 11 12 12 10 9 13 11 10 11 11 30 12 12 25 14 10 10 22 15 20 14 23 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 9 14 17 9 11 11

64409 James Smith, b. 1815, St. George, Grenada Unknown Origin CTS7822 12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 19 30 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 18 37-43 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12 34 16 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 14 10 10 21 15 19 12 24 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11

jberko
08-26-2014, 03:39 PM
I am CTS9219. I am new to this so I don't know exactly what to do with it.

Silesian
08-26-2014, 03:51 PM
I am CTS9219. I am new to this so I don't know exactly what to do with it.
Welcome to our R1b-CTS9219 group !
edit update;
Have you taken an auDNA [autosomal test] ?

Joe B
08-26-2014, 03:57 PM
I am CTS9219. I am new to this so I don't know exactly what to do with it.
Hello jberko and welcome to Anthrogenica. You'll find some helpful members here.
What level of testing have you done?
Have you joined the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project? That's where the phylogenetic research is happening, we need your haplotype.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/

The R1b-CTS9219 branch was only recently found so there is much to learn such as geographic distribution and SNPs that are downstream from CTS9219.

Joe B
08-28-2014, 02:03 AM
Breaking News from ISOGG- "Added CTS6889/S1161, CTS7822/Z2110, FGC14877, PF7589/Z2118 to tree on 27 August 2014."
Congratulations!!!!!

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
International Society of Genetic Genealogy (2014). Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree 2014, Version:Version: 9.75, Date: 27 August 2014 , http://www.isogg.org/tree/ 27 August 2014.

brygian
08-28-2014, 02:33 AM
We have preliminary approval for CTS9219 too.

2Bellies
08-28-2014, 03:10 AM
Note: 8-8-2014 post should have said that the BAM file "was submitted" to YFull for further analysis. Don't know what my fingers were thinking.

Pillar_of_fire
08-30-2014, 07:14 AM
YFULL completed the analysis of 331351---->YF01913 amd he is with DYS446=14

Pillar_of_fire
08-30-2014, 09:15 AM
331351 STR results are as reported by YFULL

DYS393
12
DYS390
23
DYS19
14
DYS391
11
DYS385.1
11
DYS385.2
14
DYS426
12
DYS388
12
DYS439
13
DYS389I
13
DYS392
13
DYS389II
30
DYS458
16
DYS459.1
9
DYS459.2
10
DYS455
11
DYS454
11
DYS447
n/a
DYS437
15
DYS448
19
DYS449
29
DYS464.1
14
DYS464.2
15
DYS464.3
16
DYS464.4
18
DYS460
11
Y-GATA-H4
11
YCAII.1
n/a
YCAII.2
n/a
DYS456
15
DYS607
16
DYS576
18
DYS570
20
CDY.1
36
CDY.2
37
DYS442
12
DYS438
12
DYS531
11
DYS578
9
DYF395.1
15.a
DYF395.2
16
DYS590
8
DYS537
10
DYS641
10
DYS472
8
DYF406
10
DYS511
10
DYS425
12
DYS413.1
n/a
DYS413.2
n/a
DYS557
16
DYS594
10
DYS436
12
DYS490
n/a
DYS534
15
DYS450
8
DYS444
12
DYS481
21
DYS520
21
DYS446
14
DYS617
n/a
DYS568
11
DYS487
n/a
DYS572
n/a
DYS640
11
DYS492
12
DYS565
13

bcn440
09-02-2014, 08:13 PM
N66406 is now on yFull: YF01929

Silesian
09-03-2014, 03:48 PM
2 more R1b-CTS9219 + :)
positive confirmation Albanian R1b-CTS9219+
1-Sicily (Arberesh)-Italy
2-Zym, Prizren, Koso -Albania
b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/
28N

R1b: "R1b-Z2103-CTS7822-CTS9219" by country
1-Russia
2-Poland
3-Germany
4-Unknown
5-Bulgaria
6-United Kingdom
7-Spain
8-Italy
9-Hungary
10-Finland
11-Albania
12-Ukraine

ADW_1981
09-03-2014, 04:46 PM
2 more R1b-CTS9219 + :)
positive confirmation Albanian R1b-CTS9219+
1-Sicily (Arberesh)-Italy
2-Zym, Prizren, Koso -Albania
b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/
28N

R1b: "R1b-Z2103-CTS7822-CTS9219" by country
1-Russia
2-Poland
3-Germany
4-Unknown
5-Bulgaria
6-United Kingdom
7-Spain
8-Italy
9-Hungary
10-Finland
11-Albania
12-Ukraine


Does this mean the previously dubbed "Albanian/Greek" cluster that has the 11-11 motif at 385 is CTS9219?

Silesian
09-03-2014, 04:56 PM
Does this mean the previously dubbed "Albanian/Greek" cluster that has the 11-11 motif at 385 is CTS9219?

Looks like even more :beerchug: , Pomaks/Albanians/ and Chuvash- near Ural-Volga region ?
#18-xxx40xxx R1b-Z2103-CTS7822-CTS9219 12 24 14 - 11 11 11
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/table/637/

brygian
09-03-2014, 05:59 PM
Peed being CTS9219+ is not a surprise given his haplotype. Kajtazi belongs to the Balkan cluster with his DYS393=13, DYS385=11-11 and DYS459=8-10. But the Balkan cluster has subclusters too. I also have the above values but I have DYS455=12 too.

Soon we may know more about the Balkan cluster and it's subclusters since I ordered an upgrade from 25 to 37 STRs and Dimkov (248271) upgraded from 12 to 37 STRs.

smal
09-03-2014, 08:18 PM
Updated version of the R-Z2106 tree
http://i051.radikal.ru/1409/9b/89be6ec5aef8.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to interpret the fragments of data that are visible through the BigY matching utility. I have the BigY raw data files only from Nochev, Velev and Black. There are many questions.

brygian
09-04-2014, 05:23 AM
This now looks like two major branches under CTS9219.

Pillar_of_fire
09-07-2014, 03:01 PM
I logged in today and the YFULL tree below Z2110 has branched out with CTS1450 and Y5586

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a2/

and 331351 = YF01913 is R-Y5586

smal
09-07-2014, 03:18 PM
Pillar_of_fire, could you, please, publish here the chromosome positions of Y5586-Y5594.

Pillar_of_fire
09-07-2014, 04:06 PM
Pillar_of_fire, could you, please, publish here the chromosome positions of Y5586-Y5594.

Y5586 = 6672014 (+strand)
Y5587 = 21987083 (+strand)
Y5588 = 23191296 (+strand)
Y5589 = 9520859 (+strand)
Y5590 = 15275092 (+strand)
Y5591 = 15689304 (+strand)
Y5592 = 17713385 (+strand)
Y5593 = 21481015 (+strand)
Y5594 = 24371670 (+strand)

brygian
09-07-2014, 04:22 PM
Y5586 = 6672014 (+strand)
Y5587 = 21987083 (+strand)
Y5588 = 23191296 (+strand)
Y5589 = 9520859 (+strand)
Y5590 = 15275092 (+strand)
Y5591 = 15689304 (+strand)
Y5592 = 17713385 (+strand)
Y5593 = 21481015 (+strand)
Y5594 = 24371670 (+strand)

Y5590 = 15275092 is FGC9480.

brygian
09-07-2014, 07:45 PM
One more 'Balkan' guy, this time from Russia:

301843 Tutunzi Russian Federation CTS9219 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 13-14-15-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 14 22 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 35 14 9 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 14 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 14 10 10 19 15 18 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 19 9 11 11

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/siberiatransbaikalia/default.aspx

smal
09-07-2014, 07:53 PM
Corrected version of the R-Z2106 tree
http://s020.radikal.ru/i702/1409/ee/f370e200e38c.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

Silesian
09-09-2014, 01:04 PM
Another R1b tested positive for CTS 9219+. xxx843. No location, however in Siberia Tansbaikalia project.
DYS-385{11-11}
DYS-464 A {13}
DYS-446 {15}

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/siberiatransbaikalia/default.aspx?section=yresults.

smal
09-09-2014, 01:24 PM
Another R1b tested positive for CTS 9219+. xxx843. No location, however in Siberia Tansbaikalia project.
DYS-385{11-11}
DYS-464 A {13}
DYS-446 {15}


I heard Tutunzi has Bulgarian origin.

2Bellies
09-12-2014, 09:01 PM
YFull just gave me the analysis of my kit...according to them I am: Y-Haplogroup: R-CTS1450*
Terminal SNP: CTS1450 • CTS7556 • CTS9219 • Y5589 • Y5590 • Y5591 • Y5592 • Y5593 • Y5594
* Based on ISOGG v9.29 at 2 March 2014 and YFull Experimental YTree v2.24

How/where should I post my SNPs and STR results etc?

Joe B
09-13-2014, 03:57 AM
YFull just gave me the analysis of my kit...according to them I am: Y-Haplogroup: R-CTS1450*
Terminal SNP: CTS1450 • CTS7556 • CTS9219 • Y5589 • Y5590 • Y5591 • Y5592 • Y5593 • Y5594
* Based on ISOGG v9.29 at 2 March 2014 and YFull Experimental YTree v2.24

How/where should I post my SNPs and STR results etc?
Thanks 2Bellies for posting your YFull haplogroup. Two are listed under R-CTS1450. Are you one of them?


R-Z2110CTS7822/Z2110 * S12460 * S17864

R-Z2110*
id:HG01277CLM
id:YF01886BGR
R-CTS1450CTS1450 * CTS9219 * CTS7556 * Y5589 * Y5590... 4 SNPs
R-CTS1450*
id:YF01987
id:YF01929
R-Y5586Y5586 * Y5587 * Y5588
id:HG01515IBS
id:YF01913BGRhttp://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a2/

Please make sure that smal (R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project Group Co-Administrator) gets your information from YFull.

2Bellies
09-14-2014, 02:57 AM
I am YF01987.
SMAL was given the link to my BAM file for his own research but will make sure he gets YFull findings.

overlake68
09-17-2014, 06:10 PM
I am 272057 and would like to help, my knowledge and history is very limited but I have tested up to 111 markers as well as Big Y, Geno 2.0, Gedmatch, Full mtDNA, etc...

Silesian
09-17-2014, 06:18 PM
I am 272057 and would like to help, my knowledge and history is very limited but I have tested up to 111 markers as well as Big Y, Geno 2.0, Gedmatch, Full mtDNA, etc...

Welcome to our R1b cluster.

brygian
09-17-2014, 06:38 PM
I am 272057 and would like to help, my knowledge and history is very limited but I have tested up to 111 markers as well as Big Y, Geno 2.0, Gedmatch, Full mtDNA, etc...

Welcome to the forum. Your results were included in the CTS7822 application and thanks to yours and others' results CTS7822/Z2110 was listed on the ISOGG R1b tree. Your results are also included in the CTS9219 application. The application is approved by the reviewer and CTS9219 will be listed on the tree as soon as the responsible person at ISOGG has time to do so. Thanks for testing.

Joe B
09-17-2014, 07:03 PM
I am 272057 and would like to help, my knowledge and history is very limited but I have tested up to 111 markers as well as Big Y, Geno 2.0, Gedmatch, Full mtDNA, etc...
Welcome to Anthrogenica and a big thanks for all of the testing that you have done. As has been indicated, your test results are very important. I bet Geolocke's Bristol Channel DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BristolChannelDNA/default.aspx) project might be a good choice to join as it has several members similar to your haplotype.
Please provide a link to your Big Y .BAM file to smal(R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project, Group Co-Administrator) so he can utilize the data to develop your branch of the y-tree.
How can we help you?

overlake68
09-18-2014, 01:38 AM
Thanks, I joined Bristol Channel too.

2Bellies
09-18-2014, 12:42 PM
As a matter of curiosity what is the right "R1b" designation for CTS9219? Early in my testing I was R1b1a2 now FTDNA lists me as R1b1a1a4a. Is the whole system in the process of a complete change?

brygian
09-18-2014, 01:14 PM
As a matter of curiosity what is the right "R1b" designation for CTS9219? Early in my testing I was R1b1a2 now FTDNA lists me as R1b1a1a4a. Is the whole system in the process of a complete change?

CTS9219 is R1b1a2a2d* on the ISOGG tree. Soon it will be R1b1a2a2d1. FTDNA's tree is only for their internal use. They still recommend ISOGG's nomenclature for groops and subgroops.

2Bellies
09-18-2014, 08:59 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

brygian
09-19-2014, 03:04 AM
CTS9219 is now R1b1a2a2d1. Thanks to everybody who has tested, thanks to Joe for launching this initiative and thanks to smal for his great work on the L23 tree.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

2Bellies
09-21-2014, 06:22 PM
Would it be of use to anyone if I posted my 400+ STR results that I received from YFull or is there a way to attach a CSV file?

brygian
09-21-2014, 06:47 PM
Would it be of use to anyone if I posted my 400+ STR results that I received from YFull or is there a way to attach a CSV file?

Of course it will be. You can upload the CSV file in Google Docs and share it.

2Bellies
09-21-2014, 08:25 PM
STR results from YFULL for James Black / FTDNA Kit 321758 are available at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKgPlWCvrxPFII04G_i_B7AiV-vqVhbjDiFq_CgH2QA/edit?usp=sharing

Other results (private SNPs) will be posted shortly.

2Bellies
09-21-2014, 08:43 PM
MtDNA results from YFULL for James Black / FTDNA Kit 321758 are available at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19fdPF_sQq3PTxUswJ5JTG5h2X6E4PkLz-xmm25P4Li0/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pOFD0TymJz6-ZFMcTe9tSbgRrTNmBKKPWJVlibVNle8/edit?usp=sharing

2Bellies
09-21-2014, 08:51 PM
Novel (Private) SNPs from YFULL for James Black / FTDNA Kit 321758 are available at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lXEn8QYW4Zv96KpRxM4aUIpCns6_RdJWICDoODuf1ck/edit?usp=sharing

brygian
09-22-2014, 05:49 PM
STR results from YFULL for James Black / FTDNA Kit 321758 are available at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKgPlWCvrxPFII04G_i_B7AiV-vqVhbjDiFq_CgH2QA/edit?usp=sharing

Other results (private SNPs) will be posted shortly.

Many thanks! So your 111 marker haplotype is:

12 26 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 32 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 20 17 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 16 12 26 ? ? 12 11 13 13 10 9 12 12 10 12 11 30 12 13 ? 14 10 11 21 15 21 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 24 18 10 14 17 8 11 11

You have quite a lot of deviations from the CTS9219 modal. I don't know if your haplotype is more unique or if the results are different due to sequencing errors - or maybe a combination of both.

2Bellies
09-22-2014, 06:37 PM
My whole family history chase has been a puzzlement...originally I thought we were normal Scots...Pict, Irish, etc. But then the first test I took pushed me down the HT35 path and wondering how the family found itself in Scotland.

smal
09-24-2014, 07:42 PM
The BigY test results of FTDNA-164180 (Blair) are available. He belongs to R-CTS9219>BY250, BY251 (Y:7046288 (A/G), Y:24480982 (T/A)) branch.

Joe B
09-24-2014, 08:32 PM
The BigY test results of FTDNA-164180 (Blair) are available. He belongs to R-CTS9219>BY250, BY251 (Y:7046288 (A/G), Y:24480982 (T/A)) branch.That's a big one for R1b-Z2103 surnames. The BLAIR DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/blair/default.aspx?section=yresults) has 57 members in group one who match up very well with #164180. The Blair Geneology/Blair DNA Project (http://blairdna.com/) is a non-FTDNA site that has a lot of information. We need to get the Blair's to join the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/blair/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://blairdna.com/

brygian
09-28-2014, 09:49 AM
post deleted by author

johnspec
10-03-2014, 03:48 AM
hello all distant...distant..cousins...i too am R-CTS7822, looking to find out more information as am new to this, currently live in vancouver canada, however ancestors for generations are from northeast italy......lets share some information geographically etc...?....best regards

Pillar_of_fire
10-03-2014, 04:23 AM
There is one new BIG Y match both to Velev and Nochev who is CTS9219+ and there is another BIG Y match only to Nochev who is CTS7822-

Pillar_of_fire
10-03-2014, 04:25 AM
hello all distant...distant..cousins...i too am R-CTS7822, looking to find out more information as am new to this, currently live in vancouver canada, however ancestors for generations are from northeast italy......lets share some information geographically etc...?....best regards

Welcome! Did you test Big Y?

Silesian
10-03-2014, 04:46 AM
hello all distant...distant..cousins...i too am R-CTS7822, looking to find out more information as am new to this, currently live in vancouver canada, however ancestors for generations are from northeast italy......lets share some information geographically etc...?....best regards
Welcome to our small group of R1b.

Joe B
10-03-2014, 05:46 AM
hello all distant...distant..cousins...i too am R-CTS7822, looking to find out more information as am new to this, currently live in vancouver canada, however ancestors for generations are from northeast italy......lets share some information geographically etc...?....best regards
Welcome John to both Anthrogenica and the R1b-Z2103 branch of the Y-tree. R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>Z2110/CTS78722
R1b-CTS7822 has been an area of intense study this past year. Your results are very important for determining the branch structure and developing predictive STR modals for different CTS7822 subclades. What is your kit number?
Please join the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) so your data can be part of the story. The most current haplotree for the R-CTS7822 haplogroup can be found in the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project. A new one was just posted!
Thanks John and welcome aboard.

smal
10-06-2014, 07:27 AM
The Y5586, Y5587, Y5588, BY250, BY251 markers marking new subclades of R-CTS9219 are available now in YSEQ Shop Catalog (http://shop.yseq.net/index.php). At the moment we have 3 lines among the BigY tested samples:

1) R-CTS9219>Y5587, Y5586, Y5588. But it is possible there is more complex substructure - R-CTS9219>Y5587>Y5586, Y5588.
2) R-CTS9219>BY250, BY251
3) R-CTS9219* (N66406 Seguer)

I will remind that we need to have quality Sanger sequencing data for the ISOGG tree development.

brygian
10-06-2014, 06:13 PM
The Y5586, Y5587, Y5588, BY250, BY251 markers marking new subclades of R-CTS9219 are available now in YSEQ Shop Catalog (http://shop.yseq.net/index.php). At the moment we have 3 lines among the BigY tested samples:

1) R-CTS9219>Y5587, Y5586, Y5588. But it is possible there is more complex substructure - R-CTS9219>Y5587>Y5586, Y5588.
2) R-CTS9219>BY250, BY251
3) R-CTS9219* (N66406 Seguer)

I will remind that we need to have quality Sanger sequencing data for the ISOGG tree development.

I am going to order Y Elite at some point in the near future but in the mean time I ordered Y5587. Looking at the STR markers I must be in group 1, 3 or * but who knows...

brygian
10-06-2014, 06:55 PM
By the way, isn't FTDNA going to report BY250 and BY251 in the project results?

smal
10-06-2014, 09:20 PM
By the way, isn't FTDNA going to report BY250 and BY251 in the project results?
I sent the request to FTDNA, but but they are in no hurry to answer.

2Bellies
10-13-2014, 10:22 PM
Following received from YFull re my kit...already knew the terminal is CTS1450 but there is other info:

"Terminal subclade events: terminal haplogroup of sample YF01987 changed from R-Z2110 to R-CTS1450*
New samples: new sample YF01886 in subclade R-Z2110* new sample YF01929 in subclade R-CTS1450* new sample YF01913 in subclade R-Y5586 new sample YF02119 in subclade R-Y5587* Y-Tree changing: at subclade R-Z2110 added SNPs S12460, S17864 subclade R-CTS1450 added to R-Z2110 as parent of R-Y5586 with SNPs CTS1450, CTS7556, CTS9219, Y5589, Y5590, Y5591, Y5592, Y5593, Y5594 subclade R-Y5586 added to R-CTS1450 with SNPs Y5586, Y5587, Y5588 parent of subclade R-Y5586 changed from R-CTS1450 to R-Y5587 subclade R-Y5586 renamed to R-Y5587."

Hope this helps.

brygian
10-14-2014, 05:30 AM
2Bellies, thank you very much for testing and sending your results to smal and YFull. Your haplotype is very different from the rest of the CTS9219 people and is important for determining the age of this clade.

smal, as always, was right that Y5587 precedes Y5586 and Y5588.

smal
10-14-2014, 07:08 AM
2Bellies, thank you very much for testing and sending your results to smal and YFull. Your haplotype is very different from the rest of the CTS9219 people and is important for determining the age of this clade.

smal, as always, was right that Y5587 precedes Y5586 and Y5588.

YF02119 is probably Probasco or Buczkiwski. They are not positive for Y5586 and Y5588. I do not have their BAM files to check. But this information from Yfull supports that they are negative.

Mis
10-14-2014, 01:11 PM
Which company is testing at YF02119

2Bellies
10-14-2014, 02:20 PM
My pleasure...being a neophyte at DNA testing how does one determine the age for the clade in question. Just how different am I? Is there anyone close to mine? Lots of questions. One wonders if this difference is somehow related to my ancestors going to Scotland sometime before the 16th century (just a guess as they left Scotland for Germany in the early-17th century).

Joe B
10-14-2014, 03:54 PM
Which company is testing at YF02119
YF02119 in not in the ISOGG YBrowse (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/)at the moment. The quickest way to get a test for a new SNP is through YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/). The Krahns will let you know if it is a viable SNP for Sanger sequencing. If smal thinks it is a phylogenetically important SNP a request can be sent to FTDNA. That can take a while.

Joe B
10-14-2014, 04:22 PM
My pleasure...being a neophyte at DNA testing how does one determine the age for the clade in question. Just how different am I? Is there anyone close to mine? Lots of questions. One wonders if this difference is somehow related to my ancestors going to Scotland sometime before the 16th century (just a guess as they left Scotland for Germany in the early-17th century).Thanks 2Bellies for posting your results. You are only unique until somebody else has results close to you, just happened to me last week so hang in there. Determining the age of a clade is not an exact science but I bet somebody can give a decent range.
I'm very interested in this Scotland to Germany connection in the early 17th century. Don't want to hi-jack this thread so http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe/page5 may be better for that.

smal
10-14-2014, 05:20 PM
YF02119 in not in the ISOGG YBrowse (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/)at the moment. The quickest way to get a test for a new SNP is through YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/). The Krahns will let you know if it is a viable SNP for Sanger sequencing. If smal thinks it is a phylogenetically important SNP a request can be sent to FTDNA. That can take a while.

YF02119 - this is the number of some NGS tested sample.

brygian
10-14-2014, 08:17 PM
smal, I see that still there are many unnamed SNPs on the tree. Why don't you register them with proper names?

brygian
10-14-2014, 09:23 PM
YF02119 is probably Probasco or Buczkiwski. They are not positive for Y5586 and Y5588. I do not have their BAM files to check. But this information from Yfull supports that they are negative.

What about Levchenko? They share 18 SNPs. If Levchenko is Y5586+ and Y5588+, then these 18 SNPs must be above Y5586 and Y5588.

smal
10-15-2014, 08:08 AM
smal, I see that still there are many unnamed SNPs on the tree. Why don't you register them with proper names?

I see only one way to test for so many SNPs. This is the BigY test. I doubt that FTDNA will create the individual test for each SNP. But I heard FTDNA is going to introduce new SNP panels. Please, read this news here (http://www.ancestorcentral.com/decennial-conference-on-genetic-genealogy/).


Family Tree DNA will be building large SNP panels, consisting of 50-60 SNPs, at a reasonable price of about $2.00 per SNP.

smal
10-15-2014, 08:22 AM
What about Levchenko? They share 18 SNPs. If Levchenko is Y5586+ and Y5588+, then these 18 SNPs must be above Y5586 and Y5588.

Levchenko is Y5586? and Y5588?. His test was not paid and FTDNA removed all his data. I've saved the information that was visible through BigY matching utility. But BAM file will not be accessible.

brygian
10-18-2014, 06:22 AM
Given that kit 108347 is L23+, L150-, Z2103+, CTS7822+ and the others are L23+, L150+, Z2103+, CTS7822+, isn't it more logical that L150.2! is a subbranch of CTS7822 rather than a sister branch? By the way, who submitted L150.2! to ISOGG and what results were used? I can think of the results of kits 108347 and N37658 - they fulfill the criteria.

Joe B
10-18-2014, 04:49 PM
Given that kit 108347 is L23+, L150-, Z2103+, CTS7822+ and the others are L23+, L150+, Z2103+, CTS7822+, isn't it more logical that ! is a subbranch of CTS7822 rather than a sister branch? By the way, who submitted L150.2! to ISOGG and what results were used? I can think of the results of kits 108347 and N37658 - they fulfill the criteria.
The L150+, L23- and L150.2! thing showed up in ISOGG about a year and a half ago. I don't know who made the submission, it probably made some sense at the time. My opinion is that we have so many other SNPs to use that L150 is not necessary as a phylogenetic SNP and as you said, L150- has limited value as a CTS7822 mini-branch. Here's a thread that has some of the L150 history.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1467-150-%28R1b-P25-gt-L389-gt-P297-gt-M269-%29-above-below-or-both-or-what-else&highlight=l150

brygian
10-18-2014, 05:33 PM
The L150+, L23- and L150.2! thing showed up in ISOGG about a year and a half ago. I don't know who made the submission, it probably made some sense at the time. My opinion is that we have so many other SNPs to use that L150 is not necessary as a phylogenetic SNP and as you said, L150- has limited value as a CTS7822 mini-branch. Here's a thread that has some of the L150 history.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1467-150-%28R1b-P25-gt-L389-gt-P297-gt-M269-%29-above-below-or-both-or-what-else&highlight=l150

Yes, currently we have multiple SNPs on almost every level so we could live without L150. At some point I will gather more information about it and see if we can do something.

smal
10-19-2014, 12:33 PM
#285 (FTDNA: 314859) was tested Y5587- at YSEQ.
#17 (FTDNA: 239214) was tested Y5587+.

brygian
10-19-2014, 02:56 PM
#285 (FTDNA: 314859) was tested Y5587- at YSEQ.
#17 (FTDNA: 239214) was tested Y5587+.

From my Y5587- we can conclude that the Balkan cluster doesn't descend from the East European cluster. Based on STR observations, I guess that the Balkan cluster will have common SNPs with Seguer.

smal, with my and your results we almost fulfill the SNP criteria for ISOGG. We need one more Y5587+ and STR values. FTDNA 264013, YSEQ38, Zakhar Filippov may be a good candidate.

brygian
10-19-2014, 04:43 PM
Competition is good. Let me mention that the first subclade to be listed on the tree is the easiest one to get there. All other subclades have to test negative for the ones that are already listed. If we list Y5587 under CTS9219, the BY250 people will have to test both positive for CTS9219 as well as BY250 and negative for Y5587 and vice averse. So every next subclade has to test negative for the sister clades.

What we need for Y5587 is:

* two CTS9219+, Y5587+ men or one CTS9219+, Y5587+ and one Y5587+ man.
* one CTS9219+ Y5587- man.
* the genetic distance between the two Y5587+ men should be at least 5 at 74 or less STRs.

We already have one Y5587+ man and one CTS9219+ Y5587- man. What we need is a second CTS9219+, Y5587+ man and some STR results.

So Y5587 is almost ready for listing on the tree. The BY250, BY251 people haven't done any Sanger sequence testing yet. If they want to skip testing for Y5587, they should hurry up.

smal
10-20-2014, 11:42 AM
From my Y5587- we can conclude that the Balkan cluster doesn't descend from the East European cluster. Based on STR observations, I guess that the Balkan cluster will have common SNPs with Seguer.

smal, with my and your results we almost fulfill the SNP criteria for ISOGG. We need one more Y5587+ and STR values. FTDNA 264013, YSEQ38, Zakhar Filippov may be a good candidate.

It's hard to be sure. The Balkan cluster can be more closely related to Seguer or it can belong to BY250 cluster. And I doubt that Petrov (#38) can belong to the Y5587 branch.

brygian
11-25-2014, 08:57 PM
#285 (FTDNA: 314859) was tested Y5587- at YSEQ.
#17 (FTDNA: 239214) was tested Y5587+.

I just noticed that #17 has been tested for Y5586 too.

brygian
11-26-2014, 12:09 AM
I ordered BY251 at YSEQ since somebody from the Balkan cluster already ordered BY250. Most probably will be negative but at $19 it is not a big deal.

nprobasco
06-14-2015, 09:05 PM
FTDNA Kit# 11746 CTS7822+ CTS9219+ L150+
R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project

Silesian
06-14-2015, 09:17 PM
FTDNA Kit# 11746 CTS7822+ CTS9219+ L150+
R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
Welcome to the forum.

DCBarry
02-19-2017, 06:05 PM
I recently received my results from Y-Full after uploading my BAM file and noticed that I do test + for both L150.2 and CTS7822 (at least to my inexpert eyes). I see this post is nearly 2 years old and perhaps you've found others who test similarly, but I thought I'd add my name to your list. Sergey at the FTDNA R1b Basal Subclade group is analyzing my BAM file right now, so perhaps there will be more results forthcoming shortly. In the meantime, Y-Full has refined my terminal hg to Y30192 (refined from Y10789). My Y-Full ID is: YF08067 and my FTDNA kit no. is: 546864. If there are other groups I should join or forums I should post to, please let me know. Thx.

lgmayka
02-19-2017, 07:46 PM
In the meantime, Y-Full has refined my terminal hg to Y30192 (refined from Y10789). My Y-Full ID is: YF08067 and my FTDNA kit no. is: 546864.
Your TMRCA is down to only 2100 years (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y30192/). Mine remains stuck at 2200 years (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/).

Mis
05-30-2018, 08:31 AM
The article applies to z2109 /../ CTS9219
https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/32791/merged.compressed_5to234.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y