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lorddraco14
08-01-2022, 01:53 PM
Hello, as a result of the last articles on the subject, I thought it would be a good idea to talk about the different invasions or settlements and their impact on the different populations of Great Britain and Ireland, such as the German and Norman invasions of England, the invasion of the Gaels to Scotland and the plantation of Ulster in Ireland

Saetro
08-01-2022, 08:04 PM
Let's take the last one.
It should perhaps be known as the plantations of Ulster.
By 1600 there had been previous influx from English, with Hebridean/West coast Scots brought in to fight on the Irish side, and some of those settled.
There was then a private plantation of Antrim and Down followed by a state-sponsored plantation of regions further west and also beyond the current Ulster into Connaught.
Derry was planted by an English (London) sponsored group - hence the alternative name "Londonderry".
But the remainder was planted with border reivers who were regarded as a nuisance in their former region as well as Scottish Lowlanders who were regarded by the crown as loyalists.
Then in the 1690s during famine in Scotland, some people re-located to Ulster - mainly Down and Antrim where there was work in textile manufacture.
These people were NOT planted, but looking back from now, it's hard to tell the difference without a lot of difficult research.

IMPACTs
From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.

lorddraco14
08-01-2022, 08:29 PM
Thank you very much for commenting and if the genealogies are usually a confusing topic but for that reason I created the topic to be able to talk about how it should be represented or at least try to explain the different movements of populations in the British Isles

[QUOTE=Saetro;862523
IMPACTs
From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.[/QUOTE]

Do you happen to have any study that talks about the impact of the "Utech plantations? I understand that even if they spread to Great Britain it still has connections with the rest of the Irish

lehmannt
08-01-2022, 08:59 PM
There was also a plantation in Munster, established in the 1580s, even earlier than the Ulster plantations: https://www.theirishstory.com/2011/03/28/the-munster-plantation-and-the-maccarthys-1583-1597/#.Yug_Ri-B1-U. I suspect some of my ancestors from that region may have been part of that, since they had a Scottish/northern English surname and were members of the (Protestant) Church of Ireland.

lorddraco14
08-01-2022, 10:01 PM
They do not know of a possible study or page to see the impact of different migrations to Ireland? because with this I remembered that there were parts that were controlled by Normans

Cunobelinus_T
08-04-2022, 06:45 AM
'Chaos and confusion' - spot on!


Let's take the last one.
It should perhaps be known as the plantations of Ulster.
By 1600 there had been previous influx from English, with Hebridean/West coast Scots brought in to fight on the Irish side, and some of those settled.
There was then a private plantation of Antrim and Down followed by a state-sponsored plantation of regions further west and also beyond the current Ulster into Connaught.
Derry was planted by an English (London) sponsored group - hence the alternative name "Londonderry".
But the remainder was planted with border reivers who were regarded as a nuisance in their former region as well as Scottish Lowlanders who were regarded by the crown as loyalists.
Then in the 1690s during famine in Scotland, some people re-located to Ulster - mainly Down and Antrim where there was work in textile manufacture.
These people were NOT planted, but looking back from now, it's hard to tell the difference without a lot of difficult research.

IMPACTs
From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.

lorddraco14
08-04-2022, 03:17 PM
Thank you very much everyone for commenting on this topic and if it is not a problem I would like to share the following
1 Is there a PCA or similar that shows the differences between the Northern Irish and the rest of the island?
2 If not a problem, I would also like to bring the rest of the invasions or migrations from Great Britain, such as the Gaelic to Scotland.

lehmannt
08-04-2022, 06:11 PM
Thank you very much everyone for commenting on this topic and if it is not a problem I would like to share the following
1 Is there a PCA or similar that shows the differences between the Northern Irish and the rest of the island?
2 If not a problem, I would also like to bring the rest of the invasions or migrations from Great Britain, such as the Gaelic to Scotland.

From this limited number of (unofficial) samples in the G25 NW Euro PCA there does not appear to be a clear pattern of difference between modern Northern Irish samples and modern Irish samples from the rest of the island:
50574

On the fine-scale Celtic vs Germanic PCA, which doesn't differentiate modern northern Irish from Irish or Scottish, there is considerable overlap between the modern Irish and modern Scottish samples, although the Scottish as a group are shifted toward the Germanic center of gravity:
50575

lorddraco14
08-04-2022, 10:21 PM
From this limited number of (unofficial) samples in the G25 NW Euro PCA there does not appear to be a clear pattern of difference between modern Northern Irish samples and modern Irish samples from the rest of the island:
50574

On the fine-scale Celtic vs Germanic PCA, which doesn't differentiate modern northern Irish from Irish or Scottish, there is considerable overlap between the modern Irish and modern Scottish samples, although the Scottish as a group are shifted toward the Germanic center of gravity:
50575

Thanks for answering .
1 And well with that I think it can be said that the different "plantations" seem to be more than anything a cultural change or at least a union of very similar groups
2 This Scottish displacement to the Germanic is not due to kingdoms like Northumbria kingdom?

https://www.worldhistory.org/img/r/p/500x600/9608.jpg?v=1631193302

I see it as possible and if not it can also simply be the proximity to England

pmokeefe
08-05-2022, 07:12 AM
A few recent papers on the DNA evidence for migration into Ireland (not exhaustive by any means). Only included articles when Ireland was the principal subject, there may also be important findings in papers in which Ireland was not the main subject.

Historical Era
Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152) (2018)

Using GLOBETROTTER we detected Irish admixture signals from Britain and Europe and estimated dates for events consistent with the historical migrations of the Norse-Vikings, the Anglo-Normans and the British Plantations.

The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4) (2018)

We additionally detect admixture events that provide evidence of Norse-Viking gene flow into Ireland, and reflect the Ulster Plantations.

Long-term archaeological perspectives on new genomic and environmental evidence from early medieval Ireland (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440318304977)(2019)

... admixture signals in the genomes of Irish people caused by historically-recorded migration events. Among these was Norse settlement in the 9th-10th Centuries CE, which has a greater than expected signal in the contemporary population of the island.


Prehistory
Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome (https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1518445113) (2015)

A dynastic elite in monumental Neolithic society (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2378-6) (2020)
Samples from passage tombs including Newgrange.

The Changing Face of Neolithic and Bronze Age Ireland: A Big Data Approach to the Settlement and Burial Records (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-016-9093-0) (2016)

lorddraco14
08-06-2022, 01:51 PM
Thank you, it will certainly be very helpful and if it is not a problem, do you know if there is more information about Wales and Scotland? A study has just come out of the latter and from England I think it would be better to wait for the paper that was announced a few months ago

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.01.502257v1

moesan
08-19-2022, 06:03 PM
Scots are not so homogenous and have some more Viking and Anglo-Saxon input. For Northern Ireland I suppose it would be interesting to separate Catholics from the others.

alan
08-19-2022, 07:08 PM
in northern ireland the natives v planters idea of catholics and protestants is a simplification and this is increasingly the case. I find whenever I talk about genealogy with modern northern irish people it more often than not transpires that they have part ancestry from ‘the other side’ of the divide. There has been far more mixing between catholics and protestants than many like to admit. I am not talking about just surnames but actual intermarriage within the last 4 or 5 generations. It seems to me fee don’t have at least one great grandparent from ‘the other side’.

lorddraco14
08-20-2022, 07:42 AM
Scots are not so homogenous and have some more Viking and Anglo-Saxon input. For Northern Ireland I suppose it would be interesting to separate Catholics from the others.

Aren't studies or at least one pca that talks about this?

moesan
09-03-2022, 06:17 PM
Aren't studies or at least one pca that talks about this?

PCA on precise subregions in Scotland? I have not seen todate, maybe others have? There are clusters studies (with the problems linked to this) everybody knows. I think more than a thread here spoke of this.

moesan
09-03-2022, 06:21 PM
in northern ireland the natives v planters idea of catholics and protestants is a simplification and this is increasingly the case. I find whenever I talk about genealogy with modern northern irish people it more often than not transpires that they have part ancestry from ‘the other side’ of the divide. There has been far more mixing between catholics and protestants than many like to admit. I am not talking about just surnames but actual intermarriage within the last 4 or 5 generations. It seems to me fee don’t have at least one great grandparent from ‘the other side’.

As it occurs almost everywhere, with few exceptions. But at what speed?
I'm sure there were slight differences still between several communities not so long ago. To speak of differences between human groups is not simplification. It's just a mention of relative differences which can evolve by time, of course.

Saetro
09-07-2022, 07:30 AM
PCA on precise subregions in Scotland? I have not seen todate, maybe others have? There are clusters studies (with the problems linked to this) everybody knows. I think more than a thread here spoke of this.

Exactly.
PoBI was a bit thin in some Scottish areas.
Even with the extra samples collected more recently, there are areas we still wish were better represented.
In many ways the results of a couple of decades ago with limited numbers of univariate markers still stand.
Sykes noted back then it could be difficult to find enough samples from representative locals.

A Scot could probably give you good reasons for this.
I am just a gleaner from far away who is trying to understand his own Scottish ancestors among the pattern of Scots in general.
From this vantage point, something seems to stand out.
Whether from the '45 itself or the clearances that followed, or from just moving to the towns and cities to make a living, many areas were depleted of people. And earlier there were some large-scale movements of some clans and septs too.
Many of the people I am trying to help get back to their ancestors find they came from those places.