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brianthebold9
06-05-2014, 04:30 AM
Hello All,

I would like to ask if anyone is making a connection between Z251 and its sub branches with historical groups of people and a timeline of when the were around. I have read an e book called "The Tribe within"
by Anthony Murphy Barrett. He contends that Z251 represents the five Gaelic tribes of Brittany. I know that there are several sub branches of Z251 it would be great if we could connect them to a group of people and not just have numbers on a spreadsheet. What do you think. I am trying to get a sense of just what Z251 and its sub branches represents.

Thanks Brian

seferhabahir
06-05-2014, 04:30 PM
I skimmed through the e book and it appears that the estimates for the appearance of P312, L21, DF13, and Z251 are not consistent with the novel SNP evidence found for subclades of DF13 by a couple thousand years. The e book puts them much later than they probably were. We have found that there are several subclades of DF13 with 60 or more FGC SNPs, making it likely that Z251 and other DF13 sons might possibly be 5000 years old. My own Z251 line broke off from Z251 (well, from Z251>S11556>S9294) a long time before there were any Gaelic tribes or Celts, so I can't provide much insight on that.

See the discussion at

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2519-What-are-the-implications-of-DF13-s-age-and-early-branching

I am concentrating on the 251-11EE cluster in particular, which probably has no connection to later Gaelic tribes, but instead suggests it derives from some early southern European or Mediterranean branch of Z251, leading to the present day cluster of Ashkenazim that could have come from a Roman Empire convert 2000 years ago, or perhaps from a Z251 male that traveled to the Levant, and assimilated (e.g., a Sea Peoples type?), only to find all his descendants back in Europe due to the subsequent Jewish Diaspora and now lumped in as "continental L21" folks. There is no Z251 found in the Middle East that I know of, but it does not mean 251-11EE never was there. It may mean the only surviving remnant showed up 1000 years ago in the Rhineland, and later descendents moved east into Poland and Lithuania as did many other present day Jewish clusters. The interesting thing for me is where was the Z251-11EE ancestor hanging about 4,000-4,500 years ago, and how come there aren't more of his descendents around? The STR markers (and large GD) for the 251-11EE cluster are so different from the rest of Z251 that it suggests a pretty severe bottleneck.

brianthebold9
08-02-2014, 03:57 AM
Hello All, I have a new source on the internet that suggests that Z251 " has origins in Denmark region in the last 1000 years. It is a parallel line to the House of Normandy SNP"
Is this a possible connection to the Baltic cluster I read about. Any comments.

seferhabahir
08-02-2014, 05:49 AM
It is possible that "something" originated 1000 years ago in Denmark, such as a very new subclade of Z251, sort of similar to how L583 designates a 1000 year old subset of the Z251-11EE Baltic Cluster, but all of the evidence presented via STRs (GDs up to 39 or 40 at 111 markers between various Z251 people) and SNPs (60 or more FGC SNPs in some Z251 lines not found in other lines) says the origins of Z251 and its various subclades, such as S9294 or FGC13899, date back several thousands of years before anything like Denmark or Normandy ever existed. The Baltic Cluster has nothing to do with Denmark. Its name relates to where some of the ancestors of people in Z251-11EE where found, such as Latvia and Lithuania. However, 1000 years ago a split of L583- and L583+ more than likely occurred in the Rhineland. Care to list your source?

George Chandler
08-02-2014, 08:00 PM
Hello All, I have a new source on the internet that suggests that Z251 " has origins in Denmark region in the last 1000 years. It is a parallel line to the House of Normandy SNP"
Is this a possible connection to the Baltic cluster I read about. Any comments.

What do you believe to be the House of Normandy SNP and why?

George

brianthebold9
08-05-2014, 03:50 AM
unfortunately I did not ask permission to quoit my source, but in my enthusiasm I wanted to share the information. It was an internet research company that specializes in matching DNA signatures with probable geographical locations. I do have a hard time understanding how a DNA line could be parallel. thanks for the information on the Baltic cluster, I know many people are somewhat confused by the name. I have some tests pending with YSEQ and I hope it will give me some guidance as to where I fall under Z251. I am intrigued by the reference to the Rhineland because that may be the approximate area my family came from circa 1730.

brianthebold9
08-05-2014, 03:58 AM
Hello George, I must confess that I only base it on the E book that I read called A Tribe Within. While I do not consider myself a citizen scientist on the scale of most of the people reading this, I am trying to do my part by doing DNA testing and sharing the results. Also by trolling the internet for any reference to Z251 that I can find and to ask questions and start a dialog like this.
I guess my next question would be is Z251 still to old to put a face on it as it were, or will there be more significant SNP's that will further divide the group. I am excited by how much traffic the post has generated.

edbrock326
08-05-2014, 04:16 PM
I'm no expert on the subject either. I did read the E book "A Tribe Within" by Anthony Murphy Barrett and enjoyed it. I read the list of Celtic tribes associated in the book with Z-251 and at first thought here are the answers to my origins. The book goes on to discuss the Norman invasion and the Bretons place in William the Conquerors army which could answer several questions I had about my Brock line as they were supposed to be of Norman decent. Then I started questioning where this info was coming from and the source. Anthony Murphy Barrett didn't explain his sources or what he based his info on about the tribes he says are Z-251. It is a great story but I have to dismiss it as just another yarn spun until I can see what he bases it all on.
Ed Brock

seferhabahir
04-01-2015, 02:16 AM
I am concentrating on the 251-11EE cluster in particular, which probably has no connection to later Gaelic tribes, but instead suggests it derives from some early southern European or Mediterranean branch of Z251, leading to the present day cluster of Ashkenazim that could have come from ... perhaps from a Z251 male that traveled to the Levant, and assimilated (e.g., a Sea Peoples type?), only to find all his descendants back in Europe due to the subsequent Jewish Diaspora and now lumped in as "continental L21" folks.

Stumbled across this tidbit recently as a way to explain the above hypothesis. Let's say that some Bell Beaker groups that perhaps had ancestors of Z251-11EE moved down into Sardinia after the explosion of DF13 sons like Z251. Bell Beaker is known to have been in Sardinia so this is not really controversial. This next part might be. See the following article on archaeologist Adam Zertal's excavations in el–Ahwat, a site in Northern Israel. Since 2001, Zertal has written in about his strong belief that el–Ahwat housed a community of Sherden, a ‘Sea Peoples’ group known from 13th to 11th century Egyptian records, believed by some to have originated in Sardinia.

Sardinians in Central Israel? The Excavator of El-Ahwat Makes His Final Case

http://www.redstate.com/diary/Jeff_Emanuel/2012/03/03/sardinians-in-central-israel-the-excavator-of-el-ahwat-makes-his-final-case/

The article says that el–Ahwat has the potential to serve as the only confirmed site of a non-Philistine ‘Sea Peoples’ settlement in the Levant, while striking a blow against the prevailing scholarly views that the ‘Sea Peoples’ were largely Aegeo-Anatolian in culture and origin, and that they settled in coastal areas that allowed for access to the Mediterranean Sea. On the other hand, it also says any effort to securely place non–Philistine ‘Sea Peoples’ anywhere in Canaan is difficult. Much of the article has specifics about the actual archaeological dig, so I will leave that to other posters (like Alan, maybe he would like to comment, it is not my area of expertise).

Let's look at a possible timeline:

~4800 ybp = DF13 formed (YFull estimate)
~4200 ybp = Z251 formed (YFull estimate)
~3800 ybp = end of Bell Beaker era
~3300 ybp = Sherden at el–Ahwat (maybe)
~1900 ybp = Jewish Diaspora begins
~1000 ybp = MRCA of living 251-11EE (estimate)

Don't confuse the MRCA of living 251-11EE with its divergence from the rest of Z251 (or more accurately, the rest of FGC11986). We can observe through the number of novel SNPs that 251-11EE had a complete disconnect from the rest of Z251 and FGC11986 very early after those SNPs formed, and may have then gone somewhere unique. This is only one possible idea. It's the most fun for now.

Agamemnon
04-01-2015, 02:39 AM
^^ Given the shadowy (and potentially diverse) background of the Sea peoples, this isn't exactly far-fetched to say the least. I, for one, am quite certain that the remnants of the Sea Peoples were absorbed by the larger Judean population, this would make sense given the Eastern Mediterranean affinities of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. In other words, we might well be descended from (irony of ironies!) the Philistines of old!

joeflood
02-07-2016, 01:52 PM
Z251 is somewhat interesting in that although it is native to the British Isles like all major L21 branches, it has a noticeable Eastern European Jewish presence. I believe that like other English haplogroups (eg R-Z159), it ended up in the far east of Europe not as the result of some Bronze age Corded Ware spread , but thousands of years later in the Middle Ages when the Jews were expelled from the Netherlands and Britain and dispersed to more tolerant regimes in Poland.

This can be seen very clearly on BigTree - the Eastern European group spins off at the bottom of a long trail of equivalent mutations to FGC11975 with only about six SNPs from the present to the branch - maybe 800 years ago max. It's not in Ytree, but is indicated there at a level about 600 years ago.

There is one very early branch outside of Britain (by very early I mean 2000 BC early Bronze) - in Portugal under Z16943, I suppose it got there under Atlantic Culture exchange.

rms2
02-07-2016, 02:20 PM
Z251 is somewhat interesting in that although it is native to the British Isles like all major L21 branches . . .


What do you mean by native? If by that you mean "all major L21 branches" originated in the British Isles, what makes you think that?

seferhabahir
02-07-2016, 05:45 PM
This can be seen very clearly on BigTree - the Eastern European group spins off at the bottom of a long trail of equivalent mutations to FGC11975 with only about six SNPs from the present to the branch - maybe 800 years ago max. It's not in Ytree, but is indicated there at a level about 600 years ago. There is one very early branch outside of Britain (by very early I mean 2000 BC early Bronze) - in Portugal under Z16943, I suppose it got there under Atlantic Culture exchange.

IMO, this is a misinterpretation of the Big Tree information. The long trail of mutations in the FGC11975 block (under FGC11986) are only found in Jewish testers. They do not occur in any other Z251 tests. The five or six SNPs under this larger block that you point out are only found in Jewish testers that are L583+ (the Levite branch of the Jewish L21 testers), and represent a split underneath FGC11975 (or A555 if you prefer) of the specifically Levite branch from the broader Jewish branch and occurred about 600 years ago. The Jewish Z251 branch is a very early branch, perhaps 2000BC as that is a probable date of SNP FGC11986, and as I have said below might represent some kind of Mediterranean southern spread of Bell Beaker.

I see no DNA evidence that the Z251 Jewish subclade represented by FGC11975/A555 originated in England or the British Isles. It probably ended up in Eastern Europe as a result of the Jewish Diaspora 2000 years ago as a result of eastward spread from the Rhineland into Poland and Lithuania, like most other Jewish subclades. While A555/FGC11975 might have gone to England as early merchants from the Rhineland and then been expelled, I don't see how it can be linked to being part a native British Isles group of L21 or a DF13 subclade. The SNP evidence (the long block of FGC11975 SNPs you mention) shows pretty clearly that the Jewish split within Z251 took place perhaps 4000-5000 years ago and pretty improbable that it would have originated in the British Isles.

MattL
06-08-2016, 07:44 AM
I had my maternal uncle Y DNA tested (Richard Bryant) and he matched a Breen descendant on the big tree within a relevant timeframe (he matches related Breen Irish descendants between 300-500 years ago, pretty fortunate a Breen descendant has taken a more comprehensive test), I was wondering if anyone had any current insights into the branches that flows down (trying to take in all the info I can and figured I'd leverage anyones expertise I could).

You can see him under Z251 via "Breen"...

R-P312/S116 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > Z251/S470 > Z16943 > CTS4157

Thanks :)

MattL
09-20-2016, 04:31 AM
Just wanted to follow up on this, just in case someone knows anything about this branch

cairn
09-23-2016, 03:45 PM
The CTS4157 branch is tough to pin down. I'm really surprised that we have at least 5 NGS results in this branch that don't appear to have any common SNPs downstream. The Breen/Brien/Bryant kits would likely reveal a branch below CTS4157 if more than one of them does a Big Y test and shares the results with Alex Williamson or possibly YFull. According to YFull, CTS4157 was formed about 4000 years ago, and it's difficult to say much about the people who are positive for such an old SNP. However, with the exception of the 1k Genomes kit from Mexico, all the CTS4157+ kits seem to have roots in the Scottish borders region and northern Ireland.

If your uncle hasn't already, please encourage him to join the Z251 Project at Family Tree DNA. If he did a Big Y test, it would also be really helpful if he shared his results with Alex Williamson for inclusion on the Big Tree.

MattL
11-26-2016, 04:04 AM
The CTS4157 branch is tough to pin down. I'm really surprised that we have at least 5 NGS results in this branch that don't appear to have any common SNPs downstream. The Breen/Brien/Bryant kits would likely reveal a branch below CTS4157 if more than one of them does a Big Y test and shares the results with Alex Williamson or possibly YFull. According to YFull, CTS4157 was formed about 4000 years ago, and it's difficult to say much about the people who are positive for such an old SNP. However, with the exception of the 1k Genomes kit from Mexico, all the CTS4157+ kits seem to have roots in the Scottish borders region and northern Ireland.

If your uncle hasn't already, please encourage him to join the Z251 Project at Family Tree DNA. If he did a Big Y test, it would also be really helpful if he shared his results with Alex Williamson for inclusion on the Big Tree.

Thanks. Some day when I have the extra money I'll have to get my Uncle's kit Big Y tested. Too many DNA tests to get, too little money.

MattL
10-05-2019, 10:20 AM
The CTS4157 branch is tough to pin down. I'm really surprised that we have at least 5 NGS results in this branch that don't appear to have any common SNPs downstream. The Breen/Brien/Bryant kits would likely reveal a branch below CTS4157 if more than one of them does a Big Y test and shares the results with Alex Williamson or possibly YFull. According to YFull, CTS4157 was formed about 4000 years ago, and it's difficult to say much about the people who are positive for such an old SNP. However, with the exception of the 1k Genomes kit from Mexico, all the CTS4157+ kits seem to have roots in the Scottish borders region and northern Ireland.

If your uncle hasn't already, please encourage him to join the Z251 Project at Family Tree DNA. If he did a Big Y test, it would also be really helpful if he shared his results with Alex Williamson for inclusion on the Big Tree.

So finally the day came and upgrade my uncle to a Big Y test, submitted his results and being processed in the Big Tree. I expect to be branched off with the Breen result (since my uncle Y DNA STR matches a cluster of Breens, I assume one of them did that previous big y).