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lgmayka
06-06-2014, 10:58 PM
Kit 53601 is a Q-M25 of Irish patrilineage who submitted his Big Y results to YFull for evaluation. The count: 117 best-and acceptable-quality private SNPs (not including SNPs previously named). According to Michał's rule of thumb (150 years per YFull-validated SNP), that indicates an age of divergence (from the "usual" Q-M25) of 17,500 years.

Шад
06-17-2014, 06:14 PM
Q-M25
http://yfull.com/tree/Q1a1b/

Afshar
04-02-2015, 01:33 PM
Kit 53601 is a Q-M25 of Irish patrilineage who submitted his Big Y results to YFull for evaluation. The count: 117 best-and acceptable-quality private SNPs (not including SNPs previously named). According to Michał's rule of thumb (150 years per YFull-validated SNP), that indicates an age of divergence (from the "usual" Q-M25) of 17,500 years.
Does this individual have Viking ancestry?

lgmayka
04-02-2015, 05:04 PM
Does this individual have Viking ancestry?
There is now a second individual on this tree branch (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1669/), although the second man's BAM file analysis has just begun. One man's patrilineage is from Northern Ireland, the other from Sweden.

Afshar
04-03-2015, 06:33 AM
There is now a second individual on this tree branch (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1669/), although the second man's BAM file analysis has just begun. One man's patrilineage is from Northern Ireland, the other from Sweden.

Is there any comparison data between these individuals and central asian m25? Doesnt 17500 years seem a lot

lgmayka
04-03-2015, 01:17 PM
Is there any comparison data between these individuals and central asian m25? Doesnt 17500 years seem a lot
17,500 years is indeed a long time--that's why this is so notable. Comparison data--shared vs. unshared SNPs--are precisely what was used to construct the Q-M25 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/). The mysterious Q-YP1669 diverged from the more common Central Asian (and Eastern European) Q-L712 a long time ago.

YFull has removed all dates from large portions of its haplotree. Let's hope that this is temporary!

lgmayka
04-10-2015, 02:40 AM
There is now a second individual on this tree branch (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1669/), although the second man's BAM file analysis has just begun. One man's patrilineage is from Northern Ireland, the other from Sweden.
YFull's latest Q-M25 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/) reflects the complete analysis. The rare European Q-YP1669 clade diverged from the rest of Q-M25 almost 17,000 years ago. The two European patrilineages themselves have a TMRCA of 13,600 ybp.

Afshar
04-22-2015, 06:29 AM
YFull's latest Q-M25 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/) reflects the complete analysis. The rare European Q-YP1669 clade diverged from the rest of Q-M25 almost 17,000 years ago. The two European patrilineages themselves have a TMRCA of 13,600 ybp.
A pity that there is not much "Asian" data on Yfull, there are some Arabs on the Q project which would be interesting for Qm25 .
Ordered a L712 yesterday, but what I see is almost all M25 score positive for this SNP, is there also a SNP that differs between "European" and "Asian" individuals?
Seems to me that L713, L715 do not succeed in this.

lgmayka
04-22-2015, 01:20 PM
A pity that there is not much "Asian" data on Yfull, there are some Arabs on the Q project which would be interesting for Qm25 .
Yes, we need more Asian Q-M25 to take the Big Y test.

Afshar
07-01-2015, 09:25 PM
Got my L715 today, returned in a week!!. Seems I am l712*.

Шад
07-06-2015, 05:07 AM
Got my L715 today, returned in a week!!. Seems I am l712*.

Q-L712* = Q-L712 (xL715)
1) HG02696 (PJL)
2) 41920 Hinkle Peter Hinkle, 1733-1801, Palatinate, Germany

Afshar
07-06-2015, 08:07 AM
German kit seems to be distant based on STR profile, is the Punjabi sample also tested at ftdna?

Шад
07-06-2015, 07:16 PM
No.
HG02696 is from 1K Genomes project
https://catalog.coriell.org/0/sections/Search/Sample_Detail.aspx?Ref=HG02696&PgId=166

Afshar
07-06-2015, 07:50 PM
No.
HG02696 is from 1K Genomes project
https://catalog.coriell.org/0/sections/Search/Sample_Detail.aspx?Ref=HG02696&PgId=166
From what I see this person is from Punjab region of Pakistan and not necessarily ethnic punjabi?

Táltos
07-06-2015, 07:59 PM
From what I see this person is from Punjab region of Pakistan and not necessarily ethnic punjabi?

In the remarks section it states, "At least three out of four grandparents were born in the Punjab province of Pakistan".

Too bad we can't tell from that remark if the direct paternal line grandfather was born in the Punjab province or not.

Táltos
07-06-2015, 08:06 PM
German kit seems to be distant based on STR profile,
I wonder if this kit has taken the Big Y? I know Шад had recommended that you take Big Y. Speaking of distant STRs this reminds me of my brother's kit only having YP1003. The other kit who was just YP1003, they are very distant on STRs at 37 marker anyway. That kit did not test any more markers than that.

Afshar
07-06-2015, 09:22 PM
I wonder if this kit has taken the Big Y? I know Шад had recommended that you take Big Y. Speaking of distant STRs this reminds me of my brother's kit only having YP1003. The other kit who was just YP1003, they are very distant on STRs at 37 marker anyway. That kit did not test any more markers than that.
I hope he has, the more the merrier. But we cant see snp results anymore so mods will have to check

lgmayka
07-06-2015, 09:56 PM
I wonder if this kit has taken the Big Y?
#41920 of Germany is in my project. He has not ordered the Big Y. :(

However, the Henckel project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Henckel/default.aspx?section=yresults) shows a close 37-marker match, #47861.

Afshar
07-30-2015, 03:12 PM
Bigy in today. No matches still, but a lot of novel variant snps.

Afshar
07-31-2015, 10:02 AM
Going punjabi!

Шад
07-31-2015, 06:42 PM
Going punjabi!Umayyad Expansion in Al Hind[edit]


Arab Campaigns in Indian Sub Continent.

At the conclusion of the First Fitna, Muawiyah established Umayyad rule over the Arabs in 661 AD, and resumed expansion of the Muslim Empire. To reach Al Hind, Arabs had to either occupy Kapisa and Zabul, thus gaining access of the Khyber Pass and Gomal Passes, or subdue Balochistan (an arid region on the Iranian Plateau in Southwest Asia, presently split between Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan) and Sindh to reach Sind. After regaining control of Khurasan and Sistan by 663/665 AD, Arabs launched an invasion against Kapisa. Abdur Rahman b. Samurra besieged Kabul in 663 AD, while Haris b Marrah advanced against Kalat after marching through Fannazabur and Quandabil and moving through the Bolan Pass. King Chach of Sindh sent an army against the Arabs, the enemy blocked the mountain passes, Haris was killed and his army was annihilated.

While Kabul was under siege, Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah took a detachment through the Khyber pass towards Multan in Southern Punjab in modern day Pakistan in 664 AD. He then pushed south into Kikan, and may have also raided Quandabil. Muhallab's expeditions were not aimed at conquest, and he returned with wealth and prisoners of war. Abdur Rahman took Kabul in 664 AD, then pushed south into the kingdom of Zunbil as far as Bust, before returning to Kabul to quell an uprising. Arabs under Abdullah b Sawar attacked Kikan in 665 AD, although initially successful, were ultimately forced to retreat.

Шад
07-31-2015, 06:45 PM
Going punjabi!


Arab Campaigns in Indian Sub Continent.
While Kabul was under siege, Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah took a detachment through the Khyber pass towards Multan in Southern Punjab in modern day Pakistan in 664 AD. He then pushed south into Kikan, and may have also raided Quandabil. Muhallab's expeditions were not aimed at conquest, and he returned with wealth and prisoners of war. Abdur Rahman took Kabul in 664 AD, then pushed south into the kingdom of Zunbil as far as Bust, before returning to Kabul to quell an uprising. Arabs under Abdullah b Sawar attacked Kikan in 665 AD, although initially successful, were ultimately forced to retreat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian_subcontinent

Шад
07-31-2015, 07:05 PM
I am sure that these SNPs (or part of them) are common to all branches of the Arab Q-M25:
YP4385-4439, Z10880, Z36062, Z36063, z4865, FGC17838

asghar
07-31-2015, 10:38 PM
From what I see this person is from Punjab region of Pakistan and not necessarily ethnic punjabi?

No such thing exist as "ethnic punjabi" in punjab region of pakistan, people's basic identity or ethnicity is synonymous with their tribe/biradari which is kind of marriage pool for respective tribes/biradaris. People normally (90 % of the cases) marry only within their own tribes/biradaris though exeptions do exist for remaining 10 % of the cases which is almost entirely in big urban centres of the country.

Afshar
08-01-2015, 06:03 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian_subcontinent

Are you meaning that these people were originally from the Arabian subcontinent, or you think the arab qm25 are the prisoners taken home by Muhallab?

Afshar
08-01-2015, 06:29 AM
Also interesting is the y12 Memon match I have, which is probably too weak, but the Memon history possibly relates to Arab conquests of the Indian subcontinent. There is a Hindu and an Arab theory for their origin.

Táltos
08-02-2015, 03:41 PM
Are you meaning that these people were originally from the Arabian subcontinent, or you think the arab qm25 are the prisoners taken home by Muhallab?

Good question. My *guess* is they are the prisoners taken home by Muhallab.

Afshar though this doesn't mention about people from the Arabian Peninsula, this might be of interest to you. I think it's interesting for some Q1a and Q1b to ponder. :)

Central Asia and Ancient India have long traditions of social-cultural, religious, political and economic contact since remote antiquity.[1] The two regions have common and contiguous borders, climatic continuity, similar geographical features and geo-cultural affinity. There has always been uninterrupted flow of people, material and the ideas between the two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asians_in_Ancient_Indian_literature

Afshar
08-02-2015, 07:01 PM
Good question. My *guess* is they are the prisoners taken home by Muhallab.

Afshar though this doesn't mention about people from the Arabian Peninsula, this might be of interest to you. I think it's interesting for some Q1a and Q1b to ponder. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asians_in_Ancient_Indian_literature
That would also be my guess considering the Hunnic theory. I am awaiting my bam files for yfull analysis. I hope the trmca with the punjab will enlighten things more. Also punjab is a natural place for my haplogroup because Nader Shah and the Afsharids had ruled north India for a while.

Шад
08-03-2015, 08:31 AM
Also interesting is the y12 Memon match I have, which is probably too weak, but the Memon history possibly relates to Arab conquests of the Indian subcontinent. There is a Hindu and an Arab theory for their origin.

Can you write detail about your matches?

Afshar
08-03-2015, 10:16 AM
Can you write detail about your matches?
They only pop up when searching for advanced matches, so I don't have much info other than they have done Y12 only ( I think), and when I scroll over it says not a match so its not an exact but 1step match (or more). They have done no other tests, and I cant see their origin, but based on the names (Chowdhury and Memon) I guess they are from someplace in (North?) India. A pity I cant get more info about them cause it might be significant.

Táltos
08-03-2015, 02:40 PM
They only pop up when searching for advanced matches, so I don't have much info other than they have done Y12 only ( I think), and when I scroll over it says not a match so its not an exact but 1step match (or more). They have done no other tests, and I cant see their origin, but based on the names (Chowdhury and Memon) I guess they are from someplace in (North?) India. A pity I cant get more info about them cause it might be significant.

I'm checking this feature out in my brother's kit right now. Yeah it looks like if there is an X listed in the Y DNA 12 row, they do not match you at even GD of 1. The other rows under Y DNA 25 and so forth will say no results if you hover over it. So it sounds like the two you mentioned have not tested further than 12. You probably can't click on the names to bring up an email because they are not a match to you at the 12 marker level. :(

Afshar
08-03-2015, 03:11 PM
I'm checking this feature out in my brother's kit right now. Yeah it looks like if there is an X listed in the Y DNA 12 row, they do not match you at even GD of 1. The other rows under Y DNA 25 and so forth will say no results if you hover over it. So it sounds like the two you mentioned have not tested further than 12. You probably can't click on the names to bring up an email because they are not a match to you at the 12 marker level. :(
Its all just like you said. The feature is not finished yet:P. I dont understand why they mention it when its irrelevant.

Táltos
08-03-2015, 03:24 PM
Its all just like you said. The feature is not finished yet:P. I dont understand why they mention it when its irrelevant.

I think it is to give you the ability to try and find people who would match you on various tests. For example here is someone you match on the Y but also match autosomally. You can also check off for matching on the X chromosome with this feature.

I would love if I could find someone who matched us on the Y and the autosomes. My brother and I have two matches on the autosomes who are also "Jewish Q". Unfortunately one never matched us on even the 12 marker, and the other one only matches us as a GD of 1 at the 12 marker. So frustrating!

Afshar
08-06-2015, 10:30 AM
I think it is to give you the ability to try and find people who would match you on various tests. For example here is someone you match on the Y but also match autosomally. You can also check off for matching on the X chromosome with this feature.

I would love if I could find someone who matched us on the Y and the autosomes. My brother and I have two matches on the autosomes who are also "Jewish Q". Unfortunately one never matched us on even the 12 marker, and the other one only matches us as a GD of 1 at the 12 marker. So frustrating!
I now see I also have X's on the HVR1/2 FMS column, while I have not done these tests (are they out of the bigY?), and does this mean I have results for these, because I cant find them. Its a weird feature really.

Táltos
08-06-2015, 03:47 PM
I now see I also have X's on the HVR1/2 FMS column, while I have not done these tests (are they out of the bigY?), and does this mean I have results for these, because I cant find them. Its a weird feature really.

Afshar,
It is a little confusing. I just looked again. If the other kit tested any of their mtDNA (HVR1,HVR2,FMS) then it shows as an X. However my brother's kit is not tested for any level of mtDNA. Other kits that are his Y DNA match that have not tested any mtDNA will simply say no result. So it's a little misleading.

Something else that is interesting. One of his matches who for some reason is listed private from level 25 up to 67 marker, I just noticed is marked with an X (not a match) at the 67 marker level. They are definitely a match at that level. So because they have their setting to private it shows that way. Can you see those 12 marker matches at all when you look at your matches in the usual way?

Big Y won't show any mtDNA data for FTDNA. I think if you send the BAM file to Y Full they had been able to extract that information.

paulgill
08-06-2015, 04:02 PM
Afshar,
It is a little confusing. I just looked again. If the other kit tested any of their mtDNA (HVR1,HVR2,FMS) then it shows as an X. However my brother's kit is not tested for any level of mtDNA. Other kits that are his Y DNA match that have not tested any mtDNA will simply say no result. So it's a little misleading.

Something else that is interesting. One of his matches who for some reason is listed private from level 25 up to 67 marker, I just noticed is marked with an X (not a match) at the 67 marker level. They are definitely a match at that level. So because they have their setting to private it shows that way. Can you see those 12 marker matches at all when you look at your matches in the usual way?

Big Y won't show any mtDNA data for FTDNA. I think if you send the BAM file to Y Full they had been able to extract that information.

FTDNA is now removing all mtDNA data from BIG Y files, it costs them money to do that, but then they can make $199 more if you order mtDNA Full Sequence from them.

Táltos
08-06-2015, 04:06 PM
FTDNA is now removing all mtDNA data from BIG Y files, it costs them money to do that, but then they can make $199 more if you order mtDNA Full Sequence from them.

Thanks. I thought I read somewhere that one wouldn't be able to extract that information anymore from Big Y.

Afshar
08-06-2015, 04:26 PM
Afshar,
It is a little confusing. I just looked again. If the other kit tested any of their mtDNA (HVR1,HVR2,FMS) then it shows as an X. However my brother's kit is not tested for any level of mtDNA. Other kits that are his Y DNA match that have not tested any mtDNA will simply say no result. So it's a little misleading.

Something else that is interesting. One of his matches who for some reason is listed private from level 25 up to 67 marker, I just noticed is marked with an X (not a match) at the 67 marker level. They are definitely a match at that level. So because they have their setting to private it shows that way. Can you see those 12 marker matches at all when you look at your matches in the usual way?

Big Y won't show any mtDNA data for FTDNA. I think if you send the BAM file to Y Full they had been able to extract that information.
Makes sort of sense. I just see them in advanced. Funny thing is when I look up the names it says that only matches can view their profile.

Táltos
08-06-2015, 04:39 PM
Makes sort of sense. I just see them in advanced. Funny thing is when I look up the names it says that only matches can view their profile.

How else can you look up their names?

If they are really a match they will show under your Y DNA 12 marker matches. It will show the name, match date, and should show haplogroup. Maybe even show a terminal SNP. You just won't be able to click on the name to bring up their profile.

EDIT-I only ask how else because when I look under advanced for my brother, the men that show that he does not match I can only see the name. I can't click on it or hover over it for it to say "only matches can view their profile." It just doesn't does say anything but a last name. So that made me wonder if you are able to search them another way.

Afshar
08-06-2015, 07:17 PM
How else can you look up their names?

If they are really a match they will show under your Y DNA 12 marker matches. It will show the name, match date, and should show haplogroup. Maybe even show a terminal SNP. You just won't be able to click on the name to bring up their profile.

EDIT-I only ask how else because when I look under advanced for my brother, the men that show that he does not match I can only see the name. I can't click on it or hover over it for it to say "only matches can view their profile." It just doesn't does say anything but a last name. So that made me wonder if you are able to search them another way.

U can use the search bar on top.

Táltos
08-07-2015, 02:18 AM
U can use the search bar on top.

Forgot about that being there, as I decided to ignore it. I came to the conclusion that it's for people who haven't tested yet to look and see if they might find a family name in there. Then maybe they would really want to take a DNA test. :)

Afshar
09-29-2015, 04:29 PM
For those unaware I was added to yfull
http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/
Today another branch of l712 popped up, curious what the origin is

Afshar
10-01-2015, 10:00 PM
Delered

Шад
10-11-2015, 02:40 PM
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

we would like to draw attention to a very interesting project of genetic genealogy, which studies very rare, mysterious and ancient haplogroup Q-L712. The merit of this project is, inter alia, a discovery of substructures of haplogroup Q-M25 (in former nomenclature Q1a2).

Feel free to visit the website of the project (where you can find more information):

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ydna-q-l-712/about/background

Many circumstances indicate that the Q-L712 may have Hunnic roots. We find Q-L712 among others in the group of Szekely from Transylvania, who say that they come in a straight line from Attila the Hun and his youngest son Csaba. Szekely legend, ignored by many scientists, are beginning to be worthy of more attention in the context of recent archaeological discoveries in the cemetery of archeological Hunnic-Sarmatian culture of Bronze and Iron Ages, were thearchaeologists have foundan archaicDNA with the haplogroup Q-L712 (which was first discovered in the genetic profile of the member of our project). Thus the archaeologicalY-DNA samples match living people! Szekler origin has not been explained to this day, and we hope to shed new light on this mystery.

Another interesting puzzle is a link between the Szekely group, Balkaria-Digora group and the Arab group within the Q-M25 Y-DNA haplogroup. We have manyother challenges in our project.

To answer these interesting questions, we need a lot of research. For this reason, we take care of the budget. Asvolunteers, we do this by funding a number of studies from our own pockets.

However, it would welcome any financial support from people wishing to donate these interesting activities. Every financial support will help to go a small step forward. We will be verygrateful forany help.

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=Q-L712

Best regards
Project Administrators

Шад
10-12-2015, 11:32 AM
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

we would like to draw attention to a very interesting project of genetic genealogy, which studies very rare, mysterious and ancient haplogroup Q-L712. The merit of this project is, inter alia, a discovery of substructures of haplogroup Q-M25 (in former nomenclature Q1a2).

Feel free to visit the website of the project (where you can find more information):

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ydna-q-l-712/about/background

Many circumstances indicate that the Q-L712 may have Hunnic roots. We find Q-L712 among others in the group of Szekely from Transylvania, who say that they come in a straight line from Attila the Hun and his youngest son Csaba. Szekely legend, ignored by many scientists, are beginning to be worthy of more attention in the context of recent archaeological discoveries in the cemetery of archeological Hunnic-Sarmatian culture of Bronze and Iron Ages, were thearchaeologists have foundan archaicDNA with the haplogroup Q-L712 (which was first discovered in the genetic profile of the member of our project). Thus the archaeologicalY-DNA samples match living people! Szekler origin has not been explained to this day, and we hope to shed new light on this mystery.

Another interesting puzzle is a link between the Szekely group, Balkaria-Digora group and the Arab group within the Q-M25 Y-DNA haplogroup. We have manyother challenges in our project.

To answer these interesting questions, we need a lot of research. For this reason, we take care of the budget. Asvolunteers, we do this by funding a number of studies from our own pockets.

However, it would welcome any financial support from people wishing to donate these interesting activities. Every financial support will help to go a small step forward. We will be verygrateful forany help.

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=Q-L712

Best regards
Project Administrators

Now we need to just $ 88

Afshar
10-12-2015, 02:05 PM
Another possible explanation for the Arab cluster, sounds more logic.
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elteber

Afshar
10-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Updated yfull tree now has 2 distinct l712 clusters.

lgmayka
10-15-2015, 10:56 PM
Updated yfull tree now has 2 distinct l712 clusters.
The two clusters separated over 14,000 years ago (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/).

And of course, Q-L712 separated from Q-YP1669 (both downstream from M25) almost 17,000 years ago (http://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/).

Afshar
10-16-2015, 08:36 PM
The arab and szekely are going to help for sure!

Afshar
11-09-2015, 08:27 PM
New l712 cluster now contains 2 branches, the arabic Qs cluster with the two samples of unknown origin according to the q project. Unfortunately no trmca yet.

Afshar
11-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Got a bigy match today with 204 shared snps and 4 snps difference, anybody knows how to convert these numbers to trmca?

Afshar
11-10-2015, 09:54 AM
Seems he is of another branch, so a lot of thousand years. "Match" with a spoon of salt.

Шад
11-10-2015, 11:24 AM
144 years per one SNP mutation.
But it's very, very approximate.

See for details:
Defining a New Rate Constant for Y-Chromosome SNPs based on Full Sequencing Data
Adamov et al., 2015
https://www.academia.edu/11554977/Defining_a_New_Rate_Constant_for_Y-Chromosome_SNPs_based_on_Full_Sequencing_Data

Afshar
11-10-2015, 12:48 PM
144 years per one SNP mutation.
But it's very, very approximate.

See for details:
Defining a New Rate Constant for Y-Chromosome SNPs based on Full Sequencing Data
Adamov et al., 2015
https://www.academia.edu/11554977/Defining_a_New_Rate_Constant_for_Y-Chromosome_SNPs_based_on_Full_Sequencing_Data
Any discrimination between novel and known snps?
BigY snp difference (4), is based on known SNPs only. Novel variants show 133 for me (85 for him) that are not shared.
I guess its the total amount of snps that is used which is a good estimation of formation of cluster Q-YP4385.

Afshar
02-20-2016, 05:56 PM
The Mongol m25 shows up as a BigY match.

Afshar
02-20-2016, 07:45 PM
Based on the statistics he will probably fall in the Arab f5005 cluster. More mystery

Afshar
02-20-2016, 08:51 PM
I had made an 17STR tree a while ago using FTDNA M25 samples, and samples collected from various publications (all m25 positive tested)which had a minimal of 17 strs overlap.
Maybe it will come in handy.
7908
It definitely shows the different snp based clusters as L712/L715/L713 as well as the YP4385.

Шад
02-21-2016, 09:27 AM
The Mongol m25 shows up as a BigY match.

The Mongol m25 (kit # 178386) belong to Q-F5005

Afshar
04-13-2016, 07:56 PM
Found a paper with at least one uyghur m25 http://www.nature.com/articles/srep19998#f1 based on the nevgen predictor.
Wonder if he is related to the mongol on the q project.

Afshar
03-17-2017, 06:12 PM
What I recently noticed is that the irish q-yp1669 matches the Italian (Coccoluto) guy 67/6, so that is probably something that can be explained??

lgmayka
03-17-2017, 07:21 PM
What I recently noticed is that the irish q-yp1669 matches the Italian (Coccoluto) guy 67/6, so that is probably something that can be explained??
It is true that YF01677 has a 67-marker match (GD 6) with a man of Italian ancestry. But even if we postulate that their common patrilineal ancestor was living in Italy 2000 years ago, it is difficult to explain why his nearest patrilineal relative has Baltic ancestry with a TMRCA more than 13,000 years ago. Their Q-YP1669 clade began to diverge from its brother Q-L712 over 16,000 years ago (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/). Where did this divergence occur? Why have we not found Q-YP1669 on any continent besides Europe?

I am hoping that we will eventually find aDNA belonging to the Q-YP1669 branch.

Afshar
03-17-2017, 08:42 PM
It is true that YF01677 has a 67-marker match (GD 6) with a man of Italian ancestry. But even if we postulate that their common patrilineal ancestor was living in Italy 2000 years ago, it is difficult to explain why his nearest patrilineal relative has Baltic ancestry with a TMRCA more than 13,000 years ago. Their Q-YP1669 clade began to diverge from its brother Q-L712 over 16,000 years ago (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M25/). Where did this divergence occur? Why have we not found Q-YP1669 on any continent besides Europe?

I am hoping that we will eventually find aDNA belonging to the Q-YP1669 branch.

Is YF03186 the crimean tatar?

lgmayka
03-17-2017, 10:44 PM
Is YF03186 the crimean tatar?
That's what his Most Distant Paternal Ancestor now says. But his name and address are Lithuanian; and when he first joined my project, he claimed Swedish patrilineage--and later Lithuanian.

My fear is that he has entered an imaginative guess based on his Q-M25 classification rather than on any independent family knowledge.

Afshar
03-18-2017, 10:16 AM
That's what his Most Distant Paternal Ancestor now says. But his name and address are Lithuanian; and when he first joined my project, he claimed Swedish patrilineage--and later Lithuanian.

My fear is that he has entered an imaginative guess based on his Q-M25 classification rather than on any independent family knowledge.

Yes probably. But it would be interesting to hear his story out

Edit: I see there is a lipka tatar m25 in this paper
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep30197
Strs also seem to fit , so he is probably tatar.

Táltos
03-18-2017, 08:18 PM
Unfortunately family knowledge is not always accurate either.

lgmayka
03-18-2017, 11:54 PM
Edit: I see there is a lipka tatar m25 in this paper
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep30197
Strs also seem to fit , so he is probably tatar.
Excellent find! Yes, the Y-STRs match precisely. So his patrlineage is most likely Lipka Tatar.

Afshar
03-23-2017, 08:31 PM
Ftdna has finally updated their Q1a tree and gave me another terminal SNP. What is surprising however is that the Mongol/Arab guys are downstream from that snp and that I still can order that snp test while I am almost certain it will be negative??

Шад
03-24-2017, 08:58 AM
Ftdna has finally updated their Q1a tree and gave me another terminal SNP. What is surprising however is that the Mongol/Arab guys are downstream from that snp and that I still can order that snp test while I am almost certain it will be negative??
FTDNA
Q-F4531 F4531, F5391, YP4407, YP4419, F5240, F4930, YP4427, F5278, YP4414, YP4416, YP4438, YP4404, F5347, F5103, F4983, Z36063, BY16334, F5386

This is the equivalent Q-YP4385 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP4385/)

Your branch: YFull - Q-Y16489 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y16849/

I think that the FTDNA has not yet developed the tree. This is draft version

Afshar
09-26-2017, 01:55 PM
I found some Italian Qs in this paper http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22677/suppinfo, who according to Nevgen are Q-M25. It seems a decent amount of Q-M25, wonder how they got there.

Afshar
11-30-2017, 10:23 AM
I have made a M25 haplotree with all available data, its still messy but I will update it now and then.

20060

Afshar
09-06-2019, 08:24 AM
From the new Narasimhan paper

I8506 1738-1623 calBCE (3375±20 BP, PSUAMS-5275) Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC Uzbekistan T Q1a1b1
I12134 1000-800 BCE SPGT Pakistan M30g Q1a1b1

Шад
09-06-2019, 03:44 PM
ISOGG 2018, 2017
Q1a1b1 - B284, Z36039, Z36041, Z43867 (Koryak from Kamchatka)



UPD ISOGG 2016 - Q1a1b1 L712
I wonder too. What was meant

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/

Afshar
09-06-2019, 05:48 PM
They even labeled da74 tianshanhun as q1a1b only , while he is Q-L713. I hope raw data will become available

Afshar
09-07-2019, 10:52 AM
From the new Narasimhan paper

I8506 1738-1623 calBCE (3375±20 BP, PSUAMS-5275) Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC Uzbekistan T Q1a1b1
I12134 1000-800 BCE SPGT Pakistan M30g Q1a1b1

I12134 is positive for L712, F4747 and F5005 but negative for all subclades.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-F5005/

Afshar
09-07-2019, 12:16 PM
From the new Narasimhan paper

I8506 1738-1623 calBCE (3375±20 BP, PSUAMS-5275) Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC Uzbekistan T Q1a1b1
I12134 1000-800 BCE SPGT Pakistan M30g Q1a1b1

i8506 is positive for L712, F5005, negative or no results for downstream clades.

Шад
09-08-2019, 09:37 AM
Thank. I'm going yet to download the source data files and analyze them ....
Did you check these SNPs on your own or is there some general table with the analysis data on SNPs?

Afshar
09-08-2019, 11:23 AM
Thank. I'm going yet to download the source data files and analyze them ....
Did you check these SNPs on your own or is there some general table with the analysis data on SNPs?

Manually. Is there any chance these will be uploaded to yfull?

Pribislav
09-08-2019, 01:34 PM
Manually. Is there any chance these will be uploaded to yfull?

No chance whatsoever.

Afshar
09-09-2019, 08:39 AM
Also might be interesting to get more SNP data on the M25 samples (Torgut Mongol, Mongol Tsaatan and Tozhu Tuvan) from this paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0399-0 , to see where is their position in the tree.

Шад
09-10-2019, 07:02 AM
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB27561 BAM files is here

Afshar
09-10-2019, 11:55 AM
It seems they only next-gen sequenced hg C samples.

Afshar
01-23-2020, 06:19 AM
Genetic insights into the social organisation of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin

Veronika Csáky et al.

Abstract
After 568 AD the Avars settled in the Carpathian Basin and founded the Avar Qaganate that was an important power in Central Europe until the 9th century. Part of the Avar society was probably of Asian origin; however, the localisation of their homeland is hampered by the scarcity of historical and archaeological data. Here, we study mitogenome and Y chromosomal variability of twenty-six individuals, a number of them representing a well-characterised elite group buried at the centre of the Carpathian Basin more than a century after the Avar conquest. The studied group has maternal and paternal genetic affinities to several ancient and modern East-Central Asian populations. The majority of the mitochondrial DNA variability represents Asian haplogroups (C, D, F, M, R, Y and Z). The Y-STR variability of the analysed elite males belongs only to five lineages, three N-Tat with mostly Asian parallels and two Q haplotypes. The homogeneity of the Y chromosomes reveals paternal kinship as a cohesive force in the organisation of the Avar elite strata on both social and territorial level. Our results indicate that the Avar elite arrived in the Carpathian Basin as a group of families, and remained mostly endogamous for several generations after the conquest.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...57378-8#MOESM1

Second time they found m25 (previous one was hunnic). This one seems to belong to yp789, which has modern descendants from hungary, poland and russia.

Afshar
03-27-2020, 02:24 PM
A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern Steppe
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096) Uigur
I will doublecheck after raw data but suspects its the same clade as uyghur/shirengizou nomad.

Afshar
03-27-2020, 02:34 PM
The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia

I7022 AT_60, Grave #11, N-7, MONU_60, Grave #11, N-7 Pinhasi, Ron; Cheronet, Olivia; Sirak, Kendra; Dashtseveg, Tumen petrous 2250 391-209 calBCE (2250±20 BP, PSUAMS-4000) Confident - The genetic data and direct 14C date are from the same exported petrous bone; the direct date and archaeological context (Sagly culture) match up; and the genetic pattern puts this individual into a group of 14 from the same archaeological context all of whom are directly dated to a consistent period. Mongolia_EIA_4_Sagly Yes Uvs aimag, Ulaangom sum, Chandman Uul, Ulaangom cemetery Grave #11, Burial 7 Mongolia 49.96 92.05 1240K capture 1 4.740964 904368 M Q1a1b1 547 C4a1a+195 [0.998,1.000] 0.037 6131 0.003 [0.002,0.005] ds.UDG.half S7022.E1.L1 0.7720 PASS (Xcontam=0.003)