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Geolocke
06-10-2014, 08:43 PM
A new article published this week provide some interesting mtDNA results from 8,500 year old grave sites found in Syria. I don't claim to fully understand most of the paper, I did get enough out of it to pick up on one of tidbits of interest, being that paragroup N (from which my X2d1 line descends) is found present among these remains.

Perhaps other members of this community can gleen more from this paper (linked) below.

Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401

alan
06-10-2014, 10:59 PM
This is adding to evidence from other fields that the first settlements of farmers in Europe probably largely came from a Levantine direction by sea rather than through from Anatolia past Istanbul into Thrace etc as people tend to presume.


A new article published this week provide some interesting mtDNA results from 8,500 year old grave sites found in Syria. I don't claim to fully understand most of the paper, I did get enough out of it to pick up on one of tidbits of interest, being that paragroup N (from which my X2d1 line descends) is found present among these remains.

Perhaps other members of this community can gleen more from this paper (linked) below.

Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401

vettor
06-11-2014, 06:16 AM
This is adding to evidence from other fields that the first settlements of farmers in Europe probably largely came from a Levantine direction by sea rather than through from Anatolia past Istanbul into Thrace etc as people tend to presume.

was there a sea barrier at the time between europe and anatolia ? black sea was very small around 8000BC

ZephyrousMandaru
06-11-2014, 06:47 AM
This is adding to evidence from other fields that the first settlements of farmers in Europe probably largely came from a Levantine direction by sea rather than through from Anatolia past Istanbul into Thrace etc as people tend to presume.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The earliest Neolithic farmers probably originated from the Eastern Mediterranean region, and is probably associated with the Mediterranean component. I think that at this time, the Caucasus component didn't yet exist, perhaps because the Mediterranean or Southwest Asian-like population at the time had not yet mixed or was in the beginning stages of interbreeding with the ANE population that arrived in Iran or the Caucasus to create the Caucasus component. Hence why Caucasus is found in comparatively lower frequencies than Mediterranean is, probably because the Caucasus component is connected to Late Neolithic farmers and historical migrations.

Heber
06-11-2014, 08:36 AM
This is adding to evidence from other fields that the first settlements of farmers in Europe probably largely came from a Levantine direction by sea rather than through from Anatolia past Istanbul into Thrace etc as people tend to presume.

The early Europeans (Neolithisation)

Barbara Bramanti, Joachim Burger, Ruth Bollongino

The transition from the partly nomadic hunter-gatherer culture to a settled lifestyle based on farming is also known as the “Neolithic Revolution”. For 2,000 years, the Neolithic culture remained in its region of origin. After this, meaning about 9,000 years ago, it spread to western Anatolia and to the Aegean (see figure). Here at the latest, it splits into two trajectories, i.e. into the Mediterranean and into the Danube-Balkan route
The Mediterranean colonisations took place by ship. Their paths led across southern Italy, the Tyrrhenian islands, the south ofFrance and north Africa as well as across the Iberian peninsula. It is highly likely that a version of the Mediterranean Neolithic about 7,000 years ago reached the Rhine and met the second route of the Balkan Neolithic. About 8,500 years ago, this second route stretched spasmodically from south-east Europe across central and northern Europe. Subsequently, the origins of the Central European Linearbandkeramik culture can be determined as going back 7,600 years. It has its beginnings in the north-west of Hungary /south-west of Slovakia respectively, and spread relatively quickly into central Europe. Only much later, approximately 6,100 years ago, were the low plains of northern Germany and other parts of northern Europe “neolithisised”.

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/English/Research/Neolithisation.html
1955

The Mediterranean Neolithic[edit]
This pottery style gives its name to the main culture of the Mediterranean Neolithic: Cardium Pottery Culture or Cardial Culture, or Impressed Ware Culture, which eventually extended from the Adriatic sea to the Atlantic coasts of Portugal and south to Morocco.[4]

The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC.[5] The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu civilization in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear.[6] Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years. This suggests a seafaring expansion by planting colonies along the coast. [7]

Older Neolithic cultures existed already at this time in eastern Greece and Crete, apparently having arrived from the Levant, but they appear distinct from the Cardial or Impressed Ware culture. The ceramic tradition in the central Balkans also remained distinct from that along the Adriatic coastline in both style and manufacturing techniques for almost 1,000 years from the 6th millennium BC.[8] Early Neolithic impressed pottery is found in the Levant, and certain parts of Anatolia, including Mezraa-Teleilat, and in North Africa at Tunus-Redeyef, Tunisia. So the first Cardial settlers in the Adriatic may have come directly from the Levant. Of course it might equally well have come directly from North Africa, and impressed-pottery also appears in Egypt. Along the East Mediterranean coast Impressed Ware has been found in North Syria, Palestine and Lebanon.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
1956

http://armchairprehistory.com/2010/04/07/adventure-copper-spread-of-neolithic-agriculture-into-europe/

1957

The National Geographic has a good article on yet another paper on "Maritime route of colonization of Europe".

"In a new study, published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Stamatoyannopoulos and his colleagues analyzed the DNA of individuals from modern Mediterranean populations to reconstruct the migration patterns of their ancient ancestors.

The genetic data showed that the people from the Near East migrated into Anatolia-modern—day Turkey—and then rapidly west through the islands of Greece and Sicily, before making their way north into the center of the continent.

"The gene flow was from the Near East to Anatolia, and from Anatolia to the islands," Stamatoyannopoulos said. "How well the genes mirror geography is really striking."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/06/140609-farming-europe-islands-genetics-neolithic-science/

1958

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/06/04/1320811111.abstract

1959

lgmayka
06-11-2014, 02:03 PM
The National Geographic has a good article on yet another paper on "Maritime route of colonization of Europe".

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/06/140609-farming-europe-islands-genetics-neolithic-science/
From the NG article:
---
The new data show that people living around the Mediterranean today have common ancestors in Anatolia. But then the genes diverge, with Greek islands like the Dodecanese archipelago and Crete forming a sort of genetic bridge to the rest of Greece, Sicily, Italy, and north into Europe.
---

vettor
06-11-2014, 06:49 PM
The early Europeans (Neolithisation)

Barbara Bramanti, Joachim Burger, Ruth Bollongino

The transition from the partly nomadic hunter-gatherer culture to a settled lifestyle based on farming is also known as the “Neolithic Revolution”. For 2,000 years, the Neolithic culture remained in its region of origin. After this, meaning about 9,000 years ago, it spread to western Anatolia and to the Aegean (see figure). Here at the latest, it splits into two trajectories, i.e. into the Mediterranean and into the Danube-Balkan route
The Mediterranean colonisations took place by ship. Their paths led across southern Italy, the Tyrrhenian islands, the south ofFrance and north Africa as well as across the Iberian peninsula. It is highly likely that a version of the Mediterranean Neolithic about 7,000 years ago reached the Rhine and met the second route of the Balkan Neolithic. About 8,500 years ago, this second route stretched spasmodically from south-east Europe across central and northern Europe. Subsequently, the origins of the Central European Linearbandkeramik culture can be determined as going back 7,600 years. It has its beginnings in the north-west of Hungary /south-west of Slovakia respectively, and spread relatively quickly into central Europe. Only much later, approximately 6,100 years ago, were the low plains of northern Germany and other parts of northern Europe “neolithisised”.

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/English/Research/Neolithisation.html
1955

The Mediterranean Neolithic[edit]
This pottery style gives its name to the main culture of the Mediterranean Neolithic: Cardium Pottery Culture or Cardial Culture, or Impressed Ware Culture, which eventually extended from the Adriatic sea to the Atlantic coasts of Portugal and south to Morocco.[4]

The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC.[5] The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu civilization in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear.[6] Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years. This suggests a seafaring expansion by planting colonies along the coast. [7]

Older Neolithic cultures existed already at this time in eastern Greece and Crete, apparently having arrived from the Levant, but they appear distinct from the Cardial or Impressed Ware culture. The ceramic tradition in the central Balkans also remained distinct from that along the Adriatic coastline in both style and manufacturing techniques for almost 1,000 years from the 6th millennium BC.[8] Early Neolithic impressed pottery is found in the Levant, and certain parts of Anatolia, including Mezraa-Teleilat, and in North Africa at Tunus-Redeyef, Tunisia. So the first Cardial settlers in the Adriatic may have come directly from the Levant. Of course it might equally well have come directly from North Africa, and impressed-pottery also appears in Egypt. Along the East Mediterranean coast Impressed Ware has been found in North Syria, Palestine and Lebanon.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
1956

http://armchairprehistory.com/2010/04/07/adventure-copper-spread-of-neolithic-agriculture-into-europe/

1957

The National Geographic has a good article on yet another paper on "Maritime route of colonization of Europe".

"In a new study, published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Stamatoyannopoulos and his colleagues analyzed the DNA of individuals from modern Mediterranean populations to reconstruct the migration patterns of their ancient ancestors.

The genetic data showed that the people from the Near East migrated into Anatolia-modern—day Turkey—and then rapidly west through the islands of Greece and Sicily, before making their way north into the center of the continent.

"The gene flow was from the Near East to Anatolia, and from Anatolia to the islands," Stamatoyannopoulos said. "How well the genes mirror geography is really striking."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/06/140609-farming-europe-islands-genetics-neolithic-science/

1958

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/06/04/1320811111.abstract

1959

we must then assume, that otzi and his band of alpine brothers where in europe much early than anything you presented!

Heber
06-11-2014, 07:59 PM
we must then assume, that otzi and his band of alpine brothers where in europe much early than anything you presented!

Otzi lived much later about 3,300 BCE.

One interesting conclusion of this study is that the Island hoppers of Crete were probably the ancestors of the Minoans.

Two different analyses came to the same conclusion. First, the farmers moved from Cappadocia in central Turkey to its south-west coast. From there, they island-hopped across Dodecanese islands like Kos and Patmos to Greece. As well as colonising the Greek mainland, another group settled on Crete, and established Europe's first advanced civilisation, the Minoan, 5000 years ago. From there, they headed west to Sicily and the southern tip of Italy.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25695-islandhopping-odyssey-brought-civilisation-to-europe.html#.U5i1Pnm9KSP

1961

parasar
06-12-2014, 05:21 AM
Otzi lived much later about 3,300 BCE.

One interesting conclusion of this study is that the Island hoppers of Crete were probably the ancestors of the Minoans.

Two different analyses came to the same conclusion. First, the farmers moved from Cappadocia in central Turkey to its south-west coast. From there, they island-hopped across Dodecanese islands like Kos and Patmos to Greece. As well as colonising the Greek mainland, another group settled on Crete, and established Europe's first advanced civilisation, the Minoan, 5000 years ago. From there, they headed west to Sicily and the southern tip of Italy.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25695-islandhopping-odyssey-brought-civilisation-to-europe.html#.U5i1Pnm9KSP

1961

How does Stuttgart (Neolithic EEF) play into in this timeline?

Heber
06-12-2014, 06:20 AM
How does Stuttgart (Neolithic EEF) play into in this timeline?


"The Mediterranean colonisations took place by ship. Their paths led across southern Italy, the Tyrrhenian islands, the south ofFrance and north Africa as well as across the Iberian peninsula. It is highly likely that a version of the Mediterranean Neolithic about 7,000 years ago reached the Rhine and met the second route of the Balkan Neolithic. About 8,500 years ago, this second route stretched spasmodically from south-east Europe across central and northern Europe. Subsequently, the origins of the Central European Linearbandkeramik culture can be determined as going back 7,600 years. It has its beginnings in the north-west of Hungary /south-west of Slovakia respectively, and spread relatively quickly into central Europe. Only much later, approximately 6,100 years ago, were the low plains of northern Germany and other parts of northern Europe “neolithisised”.

I guess the Stuttgart (Neolithic EEF) belonged to the second route LBK group.

Geolocke
06-12-2014, 10:38 AM
Papers like this I have to re-read several times. There's just too much to pick up in one reading. But a couple more things caught my eye this morning. From the discussion section:

"All the detected haplotypes but one -the basal node of haplogroup K- have a null or limited distribution in the modern genetic pool, suggesting that a great bulk of ancient Neolithic lineages were not integrated into their succeeding populations or were erased by subsequent population movements in the region."

"Haplogroup composition and PCA-HCA of the three ancient datasets compared here allow us to identify K and N*-derived haplogroups as potential Neolithic genetic contributors. Haplogroup K is present in all Early Neolithic datasets published so far with frequencies ranging from 7.7 to 43% (Table S7, [19], [28], [31]). Moreover, it is absent in Central European and Northern Iberian Paleolithic/Mesolithic mitochondrial backgrounds [20], [23], [28]. The presence of “rare” paragroup N* in both Cardial and Epicardial samples from North Eastern Iberia and PPNB populations confirms the connection between both edges of the Neolithic expansion previously suggested in [27].

Haplogroup N1a, representing 12.75% of LBK-AVK samples [19], [24], is not present in our PPNB sample, making it unlikely that this cluster was introduced from the earliest PPNB farmers of this region [23]. A more complex pattern for the LBK-AVK Neolithic expansion route, involving migration and admixture episodes with local hunter-gatherers in frontier zones (for example the predecessor populations of Starčevo-Criş-Körös cultures) should be considered in order to explain the available data for Neolithic populations of Central and Northern Europe. To solve this uncertainty, ancient DNA analysis from the Balkans region seems of vital importance."

Even though this discussion is concerning MtDNA, this seems to fit in with other discussions concerning the Y R1b early Sub-Clades in another forum.

Heber
06-12-2014, 04:00 PM
This NGS study analysed 75K SNPs in each of 966 samples across 32 locations and 13 populations.

1963

The mtDNA which started this thread and a previous Y-Chromosone study came to similar conclusions.

Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/pdf

1964

J Man
06-12-2014, 08:14 PM
It would be nice to see some Y-DNA samples from some ancient Neolithic Mediterranean sites. I bet some haplogroup J2 males would show up there.

Agamemnon
06-12-2014, 09:06 PM
It would be nice to see some Y-DNA samples from some ancient Neolithic Mediterranean sites. I bet some haplogroup J2 males would show up there.

I seriously doubt we'd see much J2, J2's (and J in general) absence in Neolithic burials is a big mystery especially given the vast amount of theories which associated this lineage with the spread of the Neolithic.
Now, anything's possible, but for now I think that finding J2 in a Neolithic context is rather unlikely.

ADW_1981
06-12-2014, 11:23 PM
I seriously doubt we'd see much J2, J2's (and J in general) absence in Neolithic burials is a big mystery especially given the vast amount of theories which associated this lineage with the spread of the Neolithic.
Now, anything's possible, but for now I think that finding J2 in a Neolithic context is rather unlikely.

I suspect the earliest wave of farmers from around 9000 years ago to be E-V13, or its direct precursor. It also fits with the distribution we see today. I'm suspecting there were many waves of farmers and pastoralists who came later in the Neolithic period and bronze age. These guys probably carried G2a, J2 and R1b, not all in the same wave. The oddity is that G2a3b1a was associated with the LBK, yet seemed to have hopped right over the Balkans.

alan
06-13-2014, 01:41 PM
I think the likely reason for similar genes of LBK and Cardial may be that farming arrived in the Balkans by sea and that the particular Balkans culture, Koros, that led led to LBK seems to have got its type of agriculture package from the Levant, presumably by sea reaching the head of the Adriatic. However there is also something about the whole Koros-Cris-Starcevo culture that suggests to some archaeologists that a native hunter element was also involved in the genesis of these cultures. I suspect the people coming from the Levant were the G male lines and the natives were I people although I am fairly sketchy in my knowledge of those haplogroups.

It looks to me that J didnt reach a position to have seaborne movement until after the first farmers moved west along the Med. Maybe they owe something to the many non-IE Med. sea empires etc of later times. I personally think R also, like J, did not reach a coastal position suitable for maritime movement west and indeed any movement west until the end of the Neolithic. I suspect that both R and J were landlocked in the Neolithic - although not in the same place. If I had to guess I think J was located in or around the fringes of Mesopotamia, had been in the region from the Palaeolithic and possible was strong among land locked arid land nomads in the Neolithic/early copper age. I wouldnt be surprised if it was involved in the Kura-Araxes copper network, perhaps along with R1b-V88. Nomads may have been connected in some may with mobile metal trading and working groups.

Apart from V88 and relic R1b-P25*, which IMO were strays that had been split from the main Eurasian R1b lines since the LGM, I dont think R1b was involved in Levant or SW Asia until the period c. 4000-3000BC. Only in that sort of period do we see inland SW Asia and areas like the north Caucasus and steppes and Balkans connected in a way that I think M269 might have been involved.

Geolocke
06-13-2014, 02:15 PM
With regards to this statement from the original paper: "To solve this uncertainty, ancient DNA analysis from the Balkans region seems of vital importance."

Does anyone know if there are any potential or know sites in the Balkans that might provide ancient DNA for further analysis? I seem to recall a NatGeo article a while back about a Gold Horde discovered in this region (ancient Thracians?) but I can't recall if any graves were discovered.

alan
06-13-2014, 02:33 PM
That could tie in with the evidence that the crop system found in Koros/LBK might have come by sea up to the head of the Adriatic rather than through the landmass of the Balkans. Also, I think the lesson of ancient DNA is massive discontinuity in yDNA and that current yDNA patterns probably were established post-Neolithic in many areas. The Neolithic in the Balkans including Greece is complex and involved PPN Levantine groups, Cardial and others spread over a long time.
E has been found in Cardial so I think some sort of coastal position in the early Neolithic is indicated for it although a lot could be post-Neolithic. All in all ancient DNA is pretty dramatic in showing how G dominated the European Neolithic was, with some I and E also involved.

The only way I can possibly see how R1b could have been involved in the Neolithic of farming Europe is if somehow c. 5500-5000BC it almost invisibly moved west into SE and east central Europe then directly into north-west and Alpine Europe in the centuries leading up to c. 4000BC. Dairying does spread in that sort of chronology and pattern. That still seems unlikely for all sorts of reasons and is not so far supported by ancient DNA. The very small amount of ancient DNA for the post-LBK Neolithic in SE, central and north-west Europe technically means it cannot be ruled out I suppose but I think you would need to like long shot bets to go for that.


I suspect the earliest wave of farmers from around 9000 years ago to be E-V13, or its direct precursor. It also fits with the distribution we see today. I'm suspecting there were many waves of farmers and pastoralists who came later in the Neolithic period and bronze age. These guys probably carried G2a, J2 and R1b, not all in the same wave. The oddity is that G2a3b1a was associated with the LBK, yet seemed to have hopped right over the Balkans.

alan
06-13-2014, 03:00 PM
The Balkans is insanely rich in remains with dozens of Neolithic and early copper age archaeological cultures. It would be hard to know where to begin. I agree though that the Balkans is very important to understanding the Neolithic, copper and early Bronze Age of Europe. It clearly is on the path that both farming and Indo-Europeans spread into the rest of Europe. In general the ancient DNA sample is still minuscule. If it hadnt been for the really strong pattern of yG domination in Neolithic Europe despite the small sample, I think things would still be very unclear. The main reason I do not believe R1b was involved in the first farmers spread other than the ancient DNA is simply that even the older SNP based estimates do not push the normal forms of R1b in western Europe i.e. L11 and downstream - back to an old enough period to be involved.




With regards to this statement from the original paper: "To solve this uncertainty, ancient DNA analysis from the Balkans region seems of vital importance."

Does anyone know if there are any potential or know sites in the Balkans that might provide ancient DNA for further analysis? I seem to recall a NatGeo article a while back about a Gold Horde discovered in this region (ancient Thracians?) but I can't recall if any graves were discovered.

Heber
06-13-2014, 03:18 PM
The Balkans is insanely rich in remains with dozens of Neolithic and early copper age archaeological cultures. It would be hard to know where to begin. I agree though that the Balkans is very important to understanding the Neolithic, copper and early Bronze Age of Europe. It clearly is on the path that both farming and Indo-Europeans spread into the rest of Europe. In general the ancient DNA sample is still minuscule. If it hadnt been for the really strong pattern of yG domination in Neolithic Europe despite the small sample, I think things would still be very unclear. The main reason I do not believe R1b was involved in the first farmers spread other than the ancient DNA is simply that even the older SNP based estimates do not push the normal forms of R1b in western Europe i.e. L11 and downstream - back to an old enough period to be involved.

There is a very well funded project Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic (BEAN) with access to some of the best aDNA Labs in Europe with a particular focus on the Balkans.

http://beanproject.eu/tags/publication

I suspect some of the breakthroughs in our understanding of M269 and it's migrations will come from this source.

Because of the uncertainty in the age of L11 and the various associated migration events I have wondered if the major fork in L11 could have happened here with U106 following a northern LBK, Danube, Rhine route and P312 following a coastal hopping Mediterranean, Atlantic, Po, Rhone, Tagus, Garonne, Loire route.

1965

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Europe

R.Rocca
06-13-2014, 05:44 PM
That could tie in with the evidence that the crop system found in Koros/LBK might have come by sea up to the head of the Adriatic rather than through the landmass of the Balkans. Also, I think the lesson of ancient DNA is massive discontinuity in yDNA and that current yDNA patterns probably were established post-Neolithic in many areas. The Neolithic in the Balkans including Greece is complex and involved PPN Levantine groups, Cardial and others spread over a long time.
E has been found in Cardial so I think some sort of coastal position in the early Neolithic is indicated for it although a lot could be post-Neolithic. All in all ancient DNA is pretty dramatic in showing how G dominated the European Neolithic was, with some I and E also involved.

The only way I can possibly see how R1b could have been involved in the Neolithic of farming Europe is if somehow c. 5500-5000BC it almost invisibly moved west into SE and east central Europe then directly into north-west and Alpine Europe in the centuries leading up to c. 4000BC. Dairying does spread in that sort of chronology and pattern. That still seems unlikely for all sorts of reasons and is not so far supported by ancient DNA. The very small amount of ancient DNA for the post-LBK Neolithic in SE, central and north-west Europe technically means it cannot be ruled out I suppose but I think you would need to like long shot bets to go for that.

I would not be too quick to rule out a slightly younger scenario though. I know that autosomal DNA and Y-DNA are not necessarily a good one-to-one fit, but the ancient DNA we have seen so far has many R1b-rich areas of Europe with a majority of EEF over WHG and especially ANE. This to me is a strong signal of a admixture with farming groups on its migration west, no doubt wooing the ladies of mtDNA H along the way.

alan
06-13-2014, 06:05 PM
That was once a popular idea but new dating ideas and ancient DNA are very much against this idea. I would say from even the very early SNP based dating for P312 of c. 4000BC or so that Michal gives, P312 is far far too young to have anything to do with the spread of Cardial which was already in the west Med. c. 6000BC. I dont think there is any real possibility of linking the split in L11 with the Cardial-LBK split. I think there is already enough LBK ancient DNA evidence to make that very unlikely that R1b had any role.

I still think today L11 tends to peak in areas where farming arrived relatively late and wasnt the first choice of early farmers - the wet NW of Europe, the Alps, the Pyrennees etc. These are all areas where farming came late and/or slowly. However, I dont think this is anything to do with hunters per se but more to do with the R1b people spreading at a later date when developments such as dairying, the end of the village model, more mobility, crop changes, interest in metals etc making these areas more viable and attractive. I am pretty confident that that western Europe wouldnt have seen R1b until some point in the 4000-2500BC range and its really just the detail and refining that. IMO we desperately need yDNA from the early Neolithic of places like France, the isles etc just to rule out the rather remote possibility that a post-LBK post-Cardial farmer group with R1b didnt slip in c. 4000BC. Its very unlikely but I cannot claim its absolutely impossible.


There is a very well funded project Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic (BEAN) with access to some of the best aDNA Labs in Europe with a particular focus on the Balkans.

http://beanproject.eu/tags/publication

I suspect some of the breakthroughs in our understanding of M269 and it's migrations will come from this source.

Because of the uncertainty in the age of L11 and the various associated migration events I have wondered if the major fork in L11 could have happened here with U106 following a northern LBK, Danube, Rhine route and P312 following a coastal hopping Mediterranean, Atlantic, Po, Rhone, Tagus, Garonne, Loire route.

1965

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Europe

alan
06-13-2014, 06:38 PM
I certainly agree that there are multiple younger events than bell beaker that had an effect on P312 distribution, right down to historic times. I really dont know the story with the autosomal signal of R1b. Its so variable in high R1b areas that it seems to me that admixture was so strong that there isnt much of a signal left of R1b. I suspect that in itself is a strong bit of evidence that R1b was not spread by a major folk movement such as the arrival of farming. More likely it was some sort of lineage and mostly a male spread.

The other thing is that maybe European R1b in its early days, perhaps in and around the Balkans, maybe never had a signature that was all that distinct from other Europeans


I would not be too quick to rule out a slightly younger scenario though. I know that autosomal DNA and Y-DNA are not necessarily a good one-to-one fit, but the ancient DNA we have seen so far has many R1b-rich areas of Europe with a majority of EEF over WHG and especially ANE. This to me is a strong signal of a admixture with farming groups on its migration west, no doubt wooing the ladies of mtDNA H along the way.

J Man
06-13-2014, 08:05 PM
I seriously doubt we'd see much J2, J2's (and J in general) absence in Neolithic burials is a big mystery especially given the vast amount of theories which associated this lineage with the spread of the Neolithic.
Now, anything's possible, but for now I think that finding J2 in a Neolithic context is rather unlikely.

Where do you think Y-DNA haplogroup J2 men were during this time then mainly?

J Man
06-13-2014, 08:41 PM
I think the likely reason for similar genes of LBK and Cardial may be that farming arrived in the Balkans by sea and that the particular Balkans culture, Koros, that led led to LBK seems to have got its type of agriculture package from the Levant, presumably by sea reaching the head of the Adriatic. However there is also something about the whole Koros-Cris-Starcevo culture that suggests to some archaeologists that a native hunter element was also involved in the genesis of these cultures. I suspect the people coming from the Levant were the G male lines and the natives were I people although I am fairly sketchy in my knowledge of those haplogroups.

It looks to me that J didnt reach a position to have seaborne movement until after the first farmers moved west along the Med. Maybe they owe something to the many non-IE Med. sea empires etc of later times. I personally think R also, like J, did not reach a coastal position suitable for maritime movement west and indeed any movement west until the end of the Neolithic. I suspect that both R and J were landlocked in the Neolithic - although not in the same place. If I had to guess I think J was located in or around the fringes of Mesopotamia, had been in the region from the Palaeolithic and possible was strong among land locked arid land nomads in the Neolithic/early copper age. I wouldnt be surprised if it was involved in the Kura-Araxes copper network, perhaps along with R1b-V88. Nomads may have been connected in some may with mobile metal trading and working groups.

Apart from V88 and relic R1b-P25*, which IMO were strays that had been split from the main Eurasian R1b lines since the LGM, I dont think R1b was involved in Levant or SW Asia until the period c. 4000-3000BC. Only in that sort of period do we see inland SW Asia and areas like the north Caucasus and steppes and Balkans connected in a way that I think M269 might have been involved.

Do you think Y-DNA J men would have been part of the very first agricultural and pastoral innovators in the Near East? Or would they have been part of secondary groups who adopted agriculture and pastoralism from other haplogroups such as E and G?

ADW_1981
06-14-2014, 01:36 AM
J2/J1 were likely in Mesopotamia building the first cities and creating writing. This happened much later, and I don't believe these men would necessarily carry the same YDNA.

Agamemnon
06-15-2014, 01:35 AM
Where do you think Y-DNA haplogroup J2 men were during this time then mainly?

I pretty much agree with alan on this one... I think J2 spread out mostly during the Late Neolithic-early Chalcolithic period.
Prior to that I think it was mostly stuck in the Transcaucasian area with J1 not too far (another mystery here as well, though I'm ready to bet it spread out in the Levant with a PPNB horizon, several elements hint to such a spread).

I'm really starting to think that the Near East went through insane demographic events, so the Near East probably was very different 8.200 kya BP (more G2a, that's for sure).
J2a (M410) seems to have spread out recently, that counts for J lineages as a whole.
Being a student in linguistics, I tend to associate the Late Neolithic-Early Chalcolithic period with the split of language families such as Semitic, Indo-European and North Caucasian (all were at proto-stage back then).
In this view of things, J2a seems to fit more or less with people speaking Caucasian-like languages (Hattian, Hurrian, Kaskian, etc), and I think it had much to do with the pre-Greek substratum in the Aegean... And of course, the Sumerians fit in at some point (along with Tyrsenian speakers and Minoans but that's politically incorrect right now).

J1 is far more tricky (at least the P58 variety), it seems to be very reliably associated with Afroasiatic (not just Semitic) speakers, problem is we know too few on non-Semitic J1 (P58) while these are precisely the kind of lineages we need to know more about in order to picture J1's history.

We were overwhelmed by European aDNA results... I think the Near East has even greater surprises in stock for us.

To make things simple, the J lineages' story in the Near East bears an uncanny ressemblance to R1b's cautionary tale (history and recent spread) in Europe.

If J2 took part in the spread of the Neolithic agricultural package, my guess is that this spread extended throughout the Iranian plateau towards Central Asia, not Europe (where J2 seems to have spread during the Copper Age).

Heber
06-15-2014, 08:11 AM
That was once a popular idea but new dating ideas and ancient DNA are very much against this idea. I would say from even the very early SNP based dating for P312 of c. 4000BC or so that Michal gives, P312 is far far too young to have anything to do with the spread of Cardial which was already in the west Med. c. 6000BC. I dont think there is any real possibility of linking the split in L11 with the Cardial-LBK split. I think there is already enough LBK ancient DNA evidence to make that very unlikely that R1b had any role.

I still think today L11 tends to peak in areas where farming arrived relatively late and wasnt the first choice of early farmers - the wet NW of Europe, the Alps, the Pyrennees etc. These are all areas where farming came late and/or slowly. However, I dont think this is anything to do with hunters per se but more to do with the R1b people spreading at a later date when developments such as dairying, the end of the village model, more mobility, crop changes, interest in metals etc making these areas more viable and attractive. I am pretty confident that that western Europe wouldnt have seen R1b until some point in the 4000-2500BC range and its really just the detail and refining that. IMO we desperately need yDNA from the early Neolithic of places like France, the isles etc just to rule out the rather remote possibility that a post-LBK post-Cardial farmer group with R1b didnt slip in c. 4000BC. Its very unlikely but I cannot claim its absolutely impossible.


Alan,
I did not intend to suggest that R1b was associated with Cardial which of course was an earlier movement possibly associated with J or G.
Two years ago I attended a wedding on the beautiful and imposing Citidel of Belgrade.
It occurred to me at the time that this would be the ideal parting of the ways of two great migrations, Neolithic and Metal Ages.
The question is if L11 is slightly older could it have happened here that U106 separated from P312 with U106 following the River route via the Danube and P312 following the Coastal route via the Sava.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_Fortress

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Belgrade

"The first farming peoples to settle in the region are associated with the Neolithic Starčevo culture, which flourished between 6200 and 5200 BC.[9] There are several Starčevo sites in and around Belgrade, including the eponymous site of Starčevo. The Starčevo culture was succeeded by the Vinča culture (5500–4500 BC), a more sophisticated farming culture that grew out of the earlier Starčevo settlements which is also named for a site in the Belgrade region (Vinča-Belo Brdo). The Vinča culture is known for its very large settlements, some of the largest in prehistoric Europe;[10] anthropomorphic figurines such as the Lady of Vinča; the earliest known copper metallurgy in Europe;[11] and the Vinča symbols."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube

1966

1967