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jbarry6899
06-11-2014, 01:56 PM
I posted this on the Genealogy Forum, but thought I'd also post here. One of the objectives of this project is to compare the ancient DNA results with those of living members of the Barry family. There is a group of men in the Barry project who are Z49+/Z142-. We are very interested in seeing whether the ancient results also show that haplogroup.

I wanted to let all of you know about a new project that is now under way to explore the historical roots for the prominent Anglo-Norman-Irish Barry family.

For the past year I have been working with forensic anthropologists and genetic scientists at University College Dublin on an effort to conduct DNA testing on the remains of a titled member of the family. We have just received ministerial permission to take samples from the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, who died in the 18th century. This will provide the first opportunity to do a direct genetic comparison of living Barry men with one of our famous forebears. It will also enable the scientists to develop and refine methods for forensic analysis and DNA testing that will be valuable both to the academic community and to other Irish families who wish to explore their roots through genetic genealogy.

All of the professionals involved in this project are donating their time. We will, however, have some logistical expenses totaling about 2500 Euro ($3500), and it is in this regard that I wanted to solicit support for supporting the project. There is more detailed information on the project, its goals and methods on our web site: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/.

I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have and hope that you will find this project of interest. Please feel free to repost or forward this message to any interested parties.

James Barry
Administrator, Barry DNA Project

GTC
06-11-2014, 02:16 PM
Congratulations! Gaining ministerial permission for such a purpose is a monumental step!

jbarry6899
06-11-2014, 02:52 PM
Yes, we have been very fortunate. The remains are in an above-ground crypt so no exhumation is required. The scientists are donating their time and the site is only a few hours drive from Dublin so travel expenses are low. The crypt is in a decommissioned churchyard that is now in private hands and there are no living descendants of the Earl. So the cost, logistics and legalities have been manageable. The challenge now is a technical one; we will be taking two sets of samples--a molar and femur section in each--and testing in two labs. Hopefully the DNA extraction and analysis will be successful. Time will tell!

Jim

jbarry6899
06-21-2014, 01:38 PM
Quick update: we are now about 30% toward our funding goal and would appreciate any support. More information at https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/

rms2
06-21-2014, 02:27 PM
Wow! Very exciting.

I really hope you reach your goal and that the results sufficiently match modern Barry men to establish the connection.

This is really great.

Heber
06-23-2014, 06:45 PM
Great project James. It could be a model for future aDNA projects. I would like to do something similar for the Ely O Carroll whose 9th century kings are buried in Seir Kieran and Aghaboe. Imagine the possibilities in Iona Abbey with 50+ kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway buried.

jbarry6899
06-24-2014, 01:03 AM
We have learned a lot about the legal and logistical challenges of such projects. If you would like to discuss them you can reach me at jbarry6899@me.com.

Jim

jbarry6899
07-09-2014, 08:59 PM
Since receiving permission to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, last month we have raised just over 40% of the necessary funds. Thanks to all of you who made donations. We are hopeful that we will be able to raise the remaining funds soon and there are some ways you can help.

If you have not already done so, please consider making a contribution. Donations in any amount will be very helpful in defraying the costs of this exciting effort. You can contribute here:

https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/support-this-project

Please let other interested parties know about the project. These could include family members, friends, or colleagues with an interest in genealogy or Irish history; local genealogical or historical societies; or other organizations whose members might be interested in supporting historical and scientific research.

I would welcome suggestions on people or organizations I might contact to solicit support. Please email me your thoughts at jbarry6899@me.com.

Thanks very much for your support.

Jim Barry
Project Administrator

lgmayka
05-05-2015, 11:07 PM
There is a group of men in the Barry project who are Z49+/Z142-.
One of these Barry men is the only genuine Big Y Match for kit 356545 in the Polish Project. :) Unfortunately, this project member's Big Y did not clearly cover L2, Z49, or Z68--although we hope that YFull will be able to decipher one or more of these. I hope that the Barry match will submit his BAM file to YFull if he has not already done so.

My meaning of genuine match: Kit 356545 has exactly two men listed on his Big Y Matches page. One of them is U106+ . The other is a Barry.

EDIT: I now notice that kit 356545 tested positive at S14469, as did another man of Polish ancestry already listed on YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/). So is your Barry family S14469+, or not?

EDIT2: I found the other Polish S14469+ , and he is definitely Z49- . So our guy's connection with the Barry family is a false match. :(

jbarry6899
05-05-2015, 11:21 PM
I hope that the Barry match will submit his BAM file to YFull if he has not already done so..

We now have six sets of BigY results for this Barry cluster. Four have been submitted to YFull. Of those three have completed processing. They are YF02229, YF02735 and YF02914. Another is still in processing, YF03378. The other two are awaiting availability of the BAM files, which should be ready by the end of this week. You can see the results so far in the YFull tree version 3.9. Hoping to get some more intermediate matches so we can figure out the relationship of this group to other Z49 groups.

Jim

Dubhthach
05-06-2015, 09:37 AM
Jim,

Any status update on the project to test the 6th Earl, I do think it's probably one of most interesting/exciting projects when it comes to "ancient-DNA" in Ireland.

-Paul

jbarry6899
05-06-2015, 11:41 AM
Jim,

Any status update on the project to test the 6th Earl, I do think it's probably one of most interesting/exciting projects when it comes to "ancient-DNA" in Ireland.

-Paul

We have raised the needed funds and are in the final stages of procuring supplies and equipment. We hope to do the forensic examination and extraction of samples next month, weather permitting.

In the meantime, as mentioned above, we have been compiling additional test results on living men with the Barry surname and now have almost 100, including 8 BigY tests. That should provide a good basis for determining whether the original family line has survived. We will post regular upates on the project web site, here: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/.

If you or any other members are aware of Barry men who would like to have their test results included in the comparison, they can join the Barry surname project here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/barry/about/background

Thanks for your interest,

Jim

R.Rocca
05-06-2015, 12:21 PM
We have raised the needed funds and are in the final stages of procuring supplies and equipment. We hope to do the forensic examination and extraction of samples next month, weather permitting.

In the meantime, as mentioned above, we have been compiling additional test results on living men with the Barry surname and now have almost 100, including 8 BigY tests. That should provide a good basis for determining whether the original family line has survived. We will post regular upates on the project web site, here: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/.

If you or any other members are aware of Barry men who would like to have their test results included in the comparison, they can join the Barry surname project here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/barry/about/background

Thanks for your interest,

Jim

Jim, a simple "thanks" is not good enough in this case, this is an outstanding combination of genealogy, genetics and communication. A couple of thoughts...

1. Please make sure that all Barry tested men make their Big-Y BAM files accessible to me. I can run a utility against them (similar to what YFull does) to get better coverage of novel SNPs than what FTDNA provides.
2. Here is my latest U152 tree: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/results
3. The two "Bell" surname kits seem like non-paternal events. Have you had a chance to see if this is a colonial NPE or had any contact with the Bell kit owners to let them know about the ongoing Barry project?

jbarry6899
05-06-2015, 12:57 PM
1. Please make sure that all Barry tested men make their Big-Y BAM files accessible to me. I can run a utility against them (similar to what YFull does) to get better coverage of novel SNPs than what FTDNA provides.
2. Here is my latest U152 tree: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/results
3. The two "Bell" surname kits seem like non-paternal events. Have you had a chance to see if this is a colonial NPE or had any contact with the Bell kit owners to let them know about the ongoing Barry project?

Thanks very much, Rich. Yes, I have been sending the BAM files to you and will continue to do so. We are waiting for two more to be available, hopefully by the end of the week. I try to keep up with all of the experimental trees--yours, Chris Morley's, YFull, etc. and very much appreciate your efforts. You are correct that the Bells are NPEs. They are project members and we have traced the time period to the late 18th century, probably in Pennsylvania or Virginia, where the surname was often spelled Berry. Their ancestor then went to the western frontier, so it may have been a surname change or an out of wedlock birth. There are no records as of yet, but it is very clear that they are genetic Barrys. We have another man in the Z49 cluster with a different surname, Downey. He is almost certainly a genetic Barry as well. His kit is 227094.

As soon as I've had a chance to analyze the latest BAM files, I plan to work with Thomas Krahn at YSeq to create a test panel that will be less expensive than BigY in the hope of getting more men in this cluster to test. I'll consult you about constructing the panel. Also, I am trying to get more results from men in the other haplogroups to compare with Richard Barry's results. I keep an updated essay on the family history and DNA test results and would appreciate any comments. The most interesting issue at present is that we have only one man who has tested who has a documented historical relationship to the Earls of Barrymore, and that person is not in our largest cluster, Z49. So one of the objectives of the project will be to determine whether there was a discontinuity on one or both of those family lines. The essay is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/DNA%20Testing%20and%20Barry%20Family%20History.doc x

Thanks again for all that you are doing.

Jim

jbarry6899
05-06-2015, 01:24 PM
For anyone who might be interested, here are our conclusions to date about DNA and Barry family history:

DNA Testing and Barry Family History

The Barry surname is often considered to be of Anglo-Norman derivation and to have originated with a single individual who came to Ireland during the Cambro-Norman invasion in the 12th century. Historical research and DNA testing indicate a very strong likelihood that descendants of that man are living today. They also suggest, however, that there were several origins for the name, that there was more than one progenitor, and that there were discontinuities in many of the paternal lines of descent. These factors make it challenging to determine which of the living men with the Barry surname are direct genetic descendants of the Anglo-Norman invaders. At this point, analysis can suggest which groups of men are more or less likely to have an unbroken paternal line to that family, but further research and testing are required to reach a firm conclusion.

Provisional Assessment

Historical records on the Barry family indicate that direct descendants of the earliest Irish Barrys were alive at least in the early part of the 19th century. Although there are no conclusive records that identify other direct descendants, within the first three generations of the family in Ireland there were at least 10 men born whose descendants were not documented because they were not titled. There is a strong statistical probability that the paternal line survived among these and later branches of the family. DNA testing is consistent with that conclusion. YDNA (paternal lineage) test results from 97 men with the Barry surname indicate that some of are almost certainly genetic descendants of the earliest Barrys in Ireland.

There are three groups that are plausible candidates to have descended from the original Anglo-Norman Barry.

The first is a cluster of 26 men who share a close YDNA match. They appear to have had a common ancestor with the Barry surname within the past 800 years. Their YDNA matches cluster near the Barrys’ ancestral homelands. They also have a shared deep ancestral group that has a Western European origin, which is consistent with some evidence that points to a Flemish origin for the Barry family. Several of these men trace their family origins to locations near Barry strongholds in County Cork, however none have direct documentation of a relationship to the earliest Barrys. This group represents one quarter to one third of the lines of descent enumerated in the Barry YDNA project. This implies that some 3-5% of the births in each generation since the Barrys’ arrival in Ireland would have involved a discontinuity in the paternal line such as adoption, surname change or out of wedlock birth or incorrectly attributed paternity. This seems consistent with the history of Irish families.

The second is a smaller group of five men whose deep ancestral origins and YDNA match patterns point to Scandinavia. Three of the four have Irish origins, in Cork, Dublin and Waterford. Four of the men appear to be paternally related within the past 300-600 years and one of them is from a family that claims documented direct descent from the earliest Barrys, based on entries in a family bible. The fifth is more distantly related; his common ancestor with the others is probably within 600-900 years. Their ancestral group is found widely in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as in the Scandinavian countries, but is not well represented in Normandy or Flanders. This cluster represents about only some 6-10% of the family lines, which would imply a higher rate of discontinuity than for the first group.

The final group consists of nine men who trace their origins to an area of County Limerick where there is a tradition that the Barry families living there are related to the Viscounts Buttevant, one of the Barry titles. There is no documentation of this belief, however, and the DNA results for this group of men do not fit as well as those for the other two candidates. The implied rate of discontinuity for this group would be also be much higher than for the first group.

Thus the results for the first group carry more statistical weight than those of the second. However, the documentation of a direct relationship on the part of one member of the second appears to be reasonable and the third group merits further investigation. Further testing is required to determine which of the three has the strongest claim.

In addition to the Anglo-Norman Barrys, there is a native (Gaelic) Irish clan that carried that surname. The best candidates for that group are the nine men whose families lived in County Limerick near the border with Cork, an area inhabited by the native Irish Barrys.

Jim