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GoldenHind
06-11-2014, 07:40 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything, so decided to start a new thread.

An Armenian has just tested P312+. He has only two matches at 67 markers (GD 5 @ 67), and they are both also Armenians who are related to each other.

I did a quick check of the Armenia project, and found that while other haplogroups were present, the vast majority appeared to be some type of J.

There was a fair number of R1b, but almost all of them were L11-.

I suppose there are a number of possible scenarios how P312 got there, but I would love to know what this Armenian's P312 subclade is.

Webb
06-11-2014, 11:41 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything, so decided to start a new thread.

An Armenian has just tested P312+. He has only two matches at 67 markers (GD 5 @ 67), and they are both also Armenians who are related to each other.

I did a quick check of the Armenia project, and found that while other haplogroups were present, the vast majority appeared to be some type of J.

There was a fair number of R1b, but almost all of them were L11-.

I suppose there are a number of possible scenarios how P312 got there, but I would love to know what this Armenian's P312 subclade is.

He has just recently joined the P312 Facebook page and seems very interested in testing downstream. Does anything about his str string jump out at all giving hints on what he should test for next?

Stephen Parrish
06-12-2014, 12:51 AM
He has just recently joined the P312 Facebook page and seems very interested in testing downstream. Does anything about his str string jump out at all giving hints on what he should test for next?

Billy -

I am wondering how long his paternal line has been in Armenia.

Stephen

Webb
06-12-2014, 01:14 AM
Billy -

I am wondering how long his paternal line has been in Armenia.

Stephen

I was going to chat with him but he is currently being bombarded by another member. LOL.

ADW_1981
06-12-2014, 01:52 AM
I was going to chat with him but he is currently being bombarded by another member. LOL.

There is another member spouting junk science, but I was the original one who directed him to test P312 in the first place, "bombarding" isn't exactly he term I would use. The fact that his match is a GD of 5 and comes from the same town in the region doesn't support their ancestors being of foreign origins.

If there is any shred in truth that the Armenian speakers were immigrants to the region, possibly from the west, then R1b is the strongest candidate due to the overwhelming dominance of J2, J1, and G2 in the Caucasus region as a whole. If this were true, P312 was likely around then, and possibly a minority among those first men. It's actually not all that surprising when you consider the mix of various R1b in western Turkey, Greece, and the Balkans as a whole.

Webb
06-12-2014, 03:21 AM
There is another member spouting junk science, but I was the original one who directed him to test P312 in the first place, "bombarding" isn't exactly he term I would use. The fact that his match is a GD of 5 and comes from the same town in the region doesn't support their ancestors being of foreign origins.

If there is any shred in truth that the Armenian speakers were immigrants to the region, possibly from the west, then R1b is the strongest candidate due to the overwhelming dominance of J2, J1, and G2 in the Caucasus region as a whole. If this were true, P312 was likely around then, and possibly a minority among those first men. It's actually not all that surprising when you consider the mix of various R1b in western Turkey, Greece, and the Balkans as a whole.

I wouldn't LOL about someone giving someone else sound advice. It's the junk science thing. In fact I'm hoping the junk science thing doesn't scare him off.

Gray Fox
06-12-2014, 03:23 AM
I was going to chat with him but he is currently being bombarded by another member. LOL.

:lol: Yeah, he is rather enthusiastic isn't he?!

Webb
06-12-2014, 03:36 AM
:lol: Yeah, he is rather enthusiastic isn't he?!

Yes he is, and I would hate to see Mr. Armenian P312 test for something based on the fact that Mr. Enthusiastic is trying to convince him he is Galatian. So the sooner someone from the P312 group can look at his string and advise him on what to test for next, the better.

Gray Fox
06-12-2014, 03:41 AM
Yes, I hate to say it, but that page really needs to be cleaned up.

GTC
06-12-2014, 05:47 AM
I seem to recall hearing that Armenia is a particularly interesting region as it has a fairly wide diversity of haplogroups. I'm no expert on that region but I had a quick look at the Wiki and it seems that, by some studies, R1b is roughly 30%.

Stephen Parrish
06-12-2014, 12:24 PM
Yes he is, and I would hate to see Mr. Armenian P312 test for something based on the fact that Mr. Enthusiastic is trying to convince him he is Galatian. So the sooner someone from the P312 group can look at his string and advise him on what to test for next, the better.

Billy -

In case you haven't seen this news elsewhere, he ordered Big Y.

Stephen

Webb
06-12-2014, 02:21 PM
Billy -

In case you haven't seen this news elsewhere, he ordered Big Y.

Stephen

I saw that and am curious as to what his outcome will be. About 6 months ago you may recall that I perused a lot of the geographic DNA projects for that area and of the few who were P312 found all who had tested downstream were L21 and SRY2627. Now that FTDNA has upgraded their snp prediction tool, I should peruse again.

rms2
06-12-2014, 02:45 PM
I think you all are talking about someone who just the other day joined the R L21 and Subclades Project. I was surprised, since he does not have an L21+ result. I sent him my usual welcome letter advising him to test for L21 if he thinks he might be L21+. Soon after, I saw he ordered the Big Y. He is currently in our project's "Test Results Pending" category. It would surprise me if he turns out to be L21+, but what the heck. It's good that he has the Big Y on tap.

I have a brother-in-law who is Armenian, but he hasn't had a y-dna test.

GTC
06-12-2014, 03:20 PM
Although the introductory stuff is dated, there's quite a bit of haplogroup discussion on the Armenian DNA Project page at the section notated "Updated on 28 january 2012":

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=news

rms2
06-12-2014, 03:42 PM
I am wondering where someone would get the idea that this Armenian gentleman is a "Galatian". The place of origin, Syunik, he lists for his y-dna mdka is in southern Armenia, not far from the border with Iran and far from old Galatia.

Humanist
06-12-2014, 03:45 PM
I referred Peter Hrechdakian, the Armenian DNA Project admin to this thread. Peter stated that the project would probably be funding a Big Y for the gentleman.

Humanist
06-12-2014, 03:51 PM
I am wondering where someone would get the idea that this Armenian gentleman is a "Galatian". The place of origin, Syunik, he lists for his y-dna..

That is interesting, rms. From the Armenian DNA Project page:


If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

rms2
06-12-2014, 04:41 PM
That is interesting, rms. From the Armenian DNA Project page:

It looks like Karabakh is now in Azerbaijan, but Syunik and Karabakh are contiguous in between Azerbaijan proper and Azerbaijan's Nakhchivan region, down near Iran. 40% is a really high frequency.

Mher
06-14-2014, 07:35 PM
Hi my friends it is a me.I born in Khndzoresk in Syunik!I have P312+:)

GTC
06-15-2014, 06:29 AM
Hi my friends it is a me.I born in Khndzoresk in Syunik!I have P312+:)

Welcome to the forums.

Silesian
06-18-2014, 03:42 PM
Hi my friends it is a me.I born in Khndzoresk in Syunik!I have P312+:)
Welcome to the forum.

razyn
08-02-2014, 03:09 PM
In case others are curious, I have just had a chat with Mher via Facebook, and he's waiting for his Big Y results.

Just in the past few days I've gotten around to watching the April presentations from the annual Armenian lectureship at the Library of Congress. At the following url, the recorded proceedings run for just over an hour and a half. I particularly recommend Peter Hrechdakian's talk, which is between 17:08 and 57:48. For relevance to this thread, see especially the R1b part, falling almost exactly between minutes 40 and 50. Even in a study this recent, there isn't much reason to expect P312 as such -- but that has been found, specifically at Mher's ancestral village of Khndzoresk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBNo0638Pw&feature=youtu.be

Mher
08-02-2014, 05:23 PM
he about Khndzoresk and P 312 did not say

Humanist
08-02-2014, 05:51 PM
he about Khndzoresk and P 312 did not say

Peter's past views on the question can be found on the FTDNA Armenian DNA Project page. Whether they remain current, I do not know:

Updated on 28 January 2012


The distribution of the "youngest and derived forms" of R1b1a2 found mainly in Western Europe - which do not include any Armenians so far - can be viewed here (the numbers represent percentages). Both are the only known branches of R1b1a2a1a1 (ht-15): P312 = R1b1a2a1a1a and U106 = R1b1a2a1a1b. If any Armenians are found in one of these two groups in the future, it will most likely mean they are descended from Crusaders. As per Wikipedia: It was initially believed that R1b originated in western Europe where (considered as a whole, including subclades) it reaches its highest frequencies. However R1b's variance increases as one moves east, leading to the view that R1b originated further east, and (M269) expanded into Europe in the Neolithic not Paleolithic. Many geneticists now believe that R1b arose in Central Asia or Western Asia.

razyn
08-02-2014, 06:33 PM
I don't know all of Peter's views either, but his lecture on YouTube is two years more recent than the latest update on that project site. And Mher's P312 test result is even more recent than Peter's April, 2014 lecture.

When he first appeared (on the P312 Facebook group, in mid-June) Mher asked, "What do you think whence it came to Armenia p312 snp ?" He asked twice -- and the thread now seems to have disappeared, on which there was some actual discussion (including my suggestion that it was a traveling merchant, originally from Khvalynsk, who was unusually successful with the local girls because they liked the Saperavi wine he carried; and btw so do I). Mher's question is still visible, but our replies aren't. And I guess it's just as well -- I just happened to be reading Patrick McGovern's Ancient Wine, at the time, and the subject matter seems to blend well.

Humanist
08-02-2014, 06:37 PM
And Mher's P312 test result is even more recent than Peter's April, 2014 lecture.

Hopefully Mher's Big Y results will provide some clues to the possible origins of his paternal line.

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:19 PM
I have 850 year ancestor for 3 mans from Khndzoresk

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:23 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults we on 2 page

Humanist
08-02-2014, 08:30 PM
I have 850 year ancestor for 3 mans from Khndzoresk

The fact that your paternal ancestor comes from Syunik bodes well for a possible "indigenous" origin, given the relative abundance of R-M269 among the Armenians of that area.

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:34 PM
322930 Aghabek Ishkhanyan, 1846-1932 Syunik, Khndzoresk Armenia
343322 Aghayan, Syunik , Khndzoresk Armenia
207702 Melik Paramaz, 18th C., Khndzoresk, Syunik, Armenia
242145 Melik Paramaz, 18th C., Khndzoresk, Syunik, Armenia


322930 13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 14 13 13 31 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-24 16 15
343322 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15
207702 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 30 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-24 16 15
242145 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 30 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-24 16 15

Humanist
08-02-2014, 08:41 PM
Thank you for the haplotypes, Mher. I edited it a bit to make it more easy to compare the haplotypes.

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:44 PM
i think all aborigen Khndzoreskians have P312

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khndzoresk n the end of the 19th century Old Khndzoresk was the biggest village of Eastern Armenia. In the beginning of the 20th century the community had 8300 inhabitants (1800 households).

Mher
08-02-2014, 08:48 PM
Khndzoresk is widely famous for its canyon with picturesque rock formations and ancient cave settlement. The artificial caves, some of which are currently used as stables and warehouses, used to be inhabited till the 1950s. In the bottom of the gorge there is St.Hripsime church, dated back to 17th century. On a spur beyond on the right side of the gorge there is Anapat (hermitage) with the tomb of Mkhitar Sparapet. The cave church of St.Tatevos can also be found nearby.

ADW_1981
08-07-2014, 03:10 PM
Peter's past views on the question can be found on the FTDNA Armenian DNA Project page. Whether they remain current, I do not know:

Updated on 28 January 2012

The crusaders were definitely allied with the Armenians, but the likelihood of small bands of survivors hiking into the highlands is pretty slim. It's a stronger possibility that the IE speaking Armenians may originate in western Anatolia or Greece, and P312 may have always been a small minority among them, the bulk of the P312+ pushing westwards into Europe where there was a much lower population.

Alternatively, there could be an older neolithic link between western Europe and some of the first neolithic societies of Anatolia. It's quite believable that not all of these societies would be G2, J2, or J1 dominated. The western ones may have been comprised of R1b and/or E1b1b1 men. Some of the earliest settlements like Gobleki Tepe were simply abandoned and this may have been due to pressure from eastern populations moving in.

Silesian
08-07-2014, 03:19 PM
The crusaders were definitely allied with the Armenians, but the likelihood of small bands of survivors hiking into the highlands is pretty slim. It's a stronger possibility that the IE speaking Armenians may originate in western Anatolia or Greece, and P312 may have always been a small minority among them, the bulk of the P312+ pushing westwards into Europe where there was a much lower population.

Alternatively, there could be an older neolithic link between western Europe and some of the first neolithic societies of Anatolia. It's quite believable that not all of these societies would be G2, J2, or J1 dominated. The western ones may have been comprised of R1b and/or E1b1b1 men. Some of the earliest settlements like Gobleki Tepe were simply abandoned and this may have been due to pressure from eastern populations moving in.

R1b-CTS7822 has been found in Armenians.They may even have R1b-CTS9219.It is quite possible that there may also be a connection farther North.

b3b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ should test CTS9219
Armenia R-CTS7822

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/

ADW_1981
08-07-2014, 04:56 PM
R1b-CTS7822 has been found in Armenians.They may even have R1b-CTS9219.It is quite possible that there may also be a connection farther North.

b3b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ should test CTS9219
Armenia R-CTS7822

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/

True, if we consider a northern link, the PC steppe does extend southards on the east side of the Caucasus mountains. Incidently, this is also where R1b is found in higher quantity. It's plausible some of the tribes entered Asia Minor from this direction as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic-Caspian_steppe#mediaviewer/File:Pontic_Caspian_climate.png

Mher
08-10-2014, 10:35 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Rossi
and Caspian expeditions of the Rus' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_Rus%27

Mher
09-11-2014, 08:24 PM
P312* and L11* originated in Armenia, you in West Europe are all Armenians )))))

Mher
09-11-2014, 08:25 PM
322930 Aghabek Ishkhanyan, 1846-1932 Syunik,Khndzoresk R1b1a1a1a1a
CTS4244+, P312+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, F1209+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3358+, F313+, F3692+, F719+, F82+, L11+, L15+, L16+, L11+, L132+, L138+, L23+, L278+, L350+, L265+, L407+, L468+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L779+, L82+, L585+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, V241+, V250+, M526+, M74+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF3292-, PF3988-, PF4280-, PF4354-, PF4367-, PF5236-, PF1023-, PF1909-, PF2028-, PF2462-, PF257-, PAGES00072-, M75-, YSC0000002-, Z143-, Z148-, Z149-, Z194-, Z195-, Z199-, Z203-, Z204-, Z205-, Z207-, Z212-, Z214-, Z220-, Z223-, Z224-, Z227-, Z229-, Z231-, Z233-, Z234-, Z236-, Z240-, Z241-, Z248-, Z253-, Z255-, Z259-, Z264-, Z266-, Z268-, Z269-, Z273-, Z274-, Z276-, Z278-, Z279-, Z290-, Z295-, Z37-, Z38-, Z44-, Z46-, Z48-, Z51-, Z52-, Z54-, Z57-, Z65-, Z72-, PF6610-, PF7301-, PF7610-, PF7623-, PF910-, S42-, SRY2627-, U152-, P329-, P66-, M481-, M222-, M226-, L627-, L643-, L671-, L679-, L719-, L96-, M153-, L552-, L554-, L562-, L580-, L466-, L270-, L371-, L4-, L238-, L247-, L144-, L1444-, L135-, U106-, L165-, L194-, L196-, L20-, L21-, L226-, L130-, F3799-, F3916-, F3952-, F4006-, F4205-, F499-, F3161-, F3198-, F3372-, F3637-, CTS3386-, CTS3409-, CTS3413-, CTS3437-, CTS3655-, CTS3771-, CTS3866-, CTS3936-, CTS4015-, CTS4065-, CTS4069-, CTS4188-, F1230-, F1287-, F1398-, F1400-, F1643-, F1697-, F1732-, F1947-, F1948-, F1969-, F1993-, F2083-, F2229-, F2421-, F2536-, F2691-, F2735-, F3024-, CTS3080-, CTS3087-, CTS319-, CTS2687-, CTS2752-, CTS278-, CTS1640-, CTS1751-, CTS188-, CTS1970-, CTS234-, CTS2457-, CTS2501-, CTS10009-, CTS10334-, CTS10429-, CTS10504-, CTS10641-, CTS10855-, CTS10893-, CTS11022-, CTS11232-, CTS11381-, CTS11459-, CTS11548-, CTS11567-, CTS11712-, CTS11874-, CTS4299-, CTS4333-, CTS4466-, CTS4521-, CTS4559-, CTS468-, CTS4716-, CTS5029-, CTS5153-, CTS5284-, CTS5478-, CTS5481-, CTS5531-, CTS5689-, CTS5714-, CTS6-, CTS606-, CTS6253-, CTS6286-, CTS6452-, CTS6524-, CTS667-, CTS6838-, CTS6854-, CTS6911-, CTS6919-, CTS6942-, CTS6975-, CTS7010-, CTS7013-, CTS7193-, CTS7325-, CTS7416-, CTS7491-, CTS7542-, CTS7618-, CTS7759-, CTS7768-, CTS7925-, CTS7927-, CTS7958-, CTS7970-, CTS8002-, CTS8125-, CTS8137-, CTS8178-, CTS8234-, CTS8492-, CTS8516-, CTS8580-, CTS8684-, CTS8845-, CTS8949-, CTS9044-, CTS9193-, CTS9385-, CTS9454-, CTS9501-, CTS9881-, DF19-, DF21-, DF23-, DF25-, DF5-, DF99-, F1033-, F1036-

Mher
09-11-2014, 08:29 PM
N9165 Zohrab b Erevan, Armenia ca 1580 d New Julfa 1620 R1b R-M343 P25+, L11+, M269+, P297+, P310+, P311+, U106-, U198-, M335-, M73-, P107-, M18-, P312-, L1-

Mher
09-12-2014, 02:06 PM
i have DF-27 :)

ADW_1981
09-12-2014, 02:49 PM
322930 Aghabek Ishkhanyan, 1846-1932 Syunik,Khndzoresk R1b1a1a1a1a
CTS4244+, P312+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, F1209+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3358+, F313+, F3692+, F719+, F82+, L11+, L15+, L16+, L11+, L132+, L138+, L23+, L278+, L350+, L265+, L407+, L468+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L779+, L82+, L585+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, V241+, V250+, M526+, M74+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF3292-, PF3988-, PF4280-, PF4354-, PF4367-, PF5236-, PF1023-, PF1909-, PF2028-, PF2462-, PF257-, PAGES00072-, M75-, YSC0000002-, Z143-, Z148-, Z149-, Z194-, Z195-, Z199-, Z203-, Z204-, Z205-, Z207-, Z212-, Z214-, Z220-, Z223-, Z224-, Z227-, Z229-, Z231-, Z233-, Z234-, Z236-, Z240-, Z241-, Z248-, Z253-, Z255-, Z259-, Z264-, Z266-, Z268-, Z269-, Z273-, Z274-, Z276-, Z278-, Z279-, Z290-, Z295-, Z37-, Z38-, Z44-, Z46-, Z48-, Z51-, Z52-, Z54-, Z57-, Z65-, Z72-, PF6610-, PF7301-, PF7610-, PF7623-, PF910-, S42-, SRY2627-, U152-, P329-, P66-, M481-, M222-, M226-, L627-, L643-, L671-, L679-, L719-, L96-, M153-, L552-, L554-, L562-, L580-, L466-, L270-, L371-, L4-, L238-, L247-, L144-, L1444-, L135-, U106-, L165-, L194-, L196-, L20-, L21-, L226-, L130-, F3799-, F3916-, F3952-, F4006-, F4205-, F499-, F3161-, F3198-, F3372-, F3637-, CTS3386-, CTS3409-, CTS3413-, CTS3437-, CTS3655-, CTS3771-, CTS3866-, CTS3936-, CTS4015-, CTS4065-, CTS4069-, CTS4188-, F1230-, F1287-, F1398-, F1400-, F1643-, F1697-, F1732-, F1947-, F1948-, F1969-, F1993-, F2083-, F2229-, F2421-, F2536-, F2691-, F2735-, F3024-, CTS3080-, CTS3087-, CTS319-, CTS2687-, CTS2752-, CTS278-, CTS1640-, CTS1751-, CTS188-, CTS1970-, CTS234-, CTS2457-, CTS2501-, CTS10009-, CTS10334-, CTS10429-, CTS10504-, CTS10641-, CTS10855-, CTS10893-, CTS11022-, CTS11232-, CTS11381-, CTS11459-, CTS11548-, CTS11567-, CTS11712-, CTS11874-, CTS4299-, CTS4333-, CTS4466-, CTS4521-, CTS4559-, CTS468-, CTS4716-, CTS5029-, CTS5153-, CTS5284-, CTS5478-, CTS5481-, CTS5531-, CTS5689-, CTS5714-, CTS6-, CTS606-, CTS6253-, CTS6286-, CTS6452-, CTS6524-, CTS667-, CTS6838-, CTS6854-, CTS6911-, CTS6919-, CTS6942-, CTS6975-, CTS7010-, CTS7013-, CTS7193-, CTS7325-, CTS7416-, CTS7491-, CTS7542-, CTS7618-, CTS7759-, CTS7768-, CTS7925-, CTS7927-, CTS7958-, CTS7970-, CTS8002-, CTS8125-, CTS8137-, CTS8178-, CTS8234-, CTS8492-, CTS8516-, CTS8580-, CTS8684-, CTS8845-, CTS8949-, CTS9044-, CTS9193-, CTS9385-, CTS9454-, CTS9501-, CTS9881-, DF19-, DF21-, DF23-, DF25-, DF5-, DF99-, F1033-, F1036-

How do you know you're DF27? I don't know the mutations well enough

Mher
09-12-2014, 03:29 PM
Richard Hulan sya me

ADW_1981
09-12-2014, 03:32 PM
Richard Hulan sya me

Cool. One of those mutations must be equivalent to DF27, but I have no idea which one(s).

Mher
09-12-2014, 04:10 PM
Df27>A432 relic :)

razyn
09-12-2014, 05:49 PM
The evidence is in Mher's Big Y "novel variants" file, which the FTDNA computer doesn't add to the public results display. I signed in as him, via the GAP, and looked at those variants. He has the mutations for A432 (14899465, A to G) and A431 (8463781, G to T). And, per YBrowse, those are DF27 subclades -- actually, two equivalent SNPs marking the same subclade.

smal
09-12-2014, 05:59 PM
He has A431/Y3267 also. See this branch in YFULL tree (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/).

Humanist
09-12-2014, 07:44 PM
The evidence is in Mher's Big Y "novel variants" file, which the FTDNA computer doesn't add to the public results display. I signed in as him, via the GAP, and looked at those variants. He has the mutations for A432 (14899465, A to G) and A431 (8463781, G to T). And, per YBrowse, those are DF27 subclades -- actually, two equivalent SNPs marking the same subclade.

Thank you for the information. Can his result shed any light on the possible origin of his particular line?

Is there a reliable DF27 distribution map that someone can refer me to?

ADW_1981
09-12-2014, 07:51 PM
He has A431/Y3267 also. See this branch in YFULL tree (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/).

This puts him on the same node as a German and a Spaniard...well him and 3 other Armenians :P I guess this lineage is xZ196.

Mher
09-13-2014, 11:23 AM
http://shot.qip.ru/00vlxL-5TWijO4Dg/

Mher
11-26-2014, 09:28 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/ it is a me id:YF02191ARM

RCO
11-27-2014, 12:36 AM
Y7363 * Y7401 * Y7364 HG01615 IBS and you YF02191 ARM. How many novel SNPs do you have ?

Mher
11-27-2014, 04:18 PM
http://shot.qip.ru/00vlxL-6TWijO85v/

Mher
07-30-2015, 10:03 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/

razyn
07-30-2015, 10:22 PM
Deleting post, as a moderator did what it suggested (renamed this thread and moved it from P312 to DF27).

MfA
07-30-2015, 11:17 PM
N9165 Zohrab b Erevan, Armenia ca 1580 d New Julfa 1620 R1b R-M343 P25+, L11+, M269+, P297+, P310+, P311+, U106-, U198-, M335-, M73-, P107-, M18-, P312-, L1-

There's also a Kurdish guy who is L11+, P312-, M405- from further west, DÍrsim. He's tested with 23andMe and unfortunately isn't willing to test anymore.

Mher
08-29-2015, 07:54 AM
57075708 Khndzoreskians come from Dersim .Dersim was near Galatia

Mher
12-30-2015, 10:54 PM
http://f5.s.qip.ru/~2yrTZjBK.png (http://shot.qip.ru/00Fb15-52yrTZjBK/)

razyn
12-31-2015, 04:04 AM
Khndzoreskians come from Dersim .Dersim was near Galatia

If another L11+ guy (who happens to be Kurdish) from Dersim is P312-, that could suggest that the A431 movement is east to west, rather than (Iberians moving) west to east. Iberian Galicians moving eastward, with the Crusaders or otherwise, would not be expected to be P312-. Do we really need to construct a framework with L11+ Kurds meeting A431+ Armenians on the way back?

Too bad the Kurdish guy didn't test at FTDNA (so his sample is not there, in Houston), and doesn't want to keep testing.

R.Rocca
12-31-2015, 04:35 AM
If another L11+ guy (who happens to be Kurdish) from Dersim is P312-, that could suggest that the A431 movement is east to west, rather than (Iberians moving) west to east. Iberian Galicians moving eastward, with the Crusaders or otherwise, would not be expected to be P312-. Do we really need to construct a framework with L11+ Kurds meeting A431+ Armenians on the way back?

Galatia is in Anatolia.

razyn
12-31-2015, 04:58 AM
Galatia is in Anatolia.

And Dersim isn't? Anyway, I'm talking to Mher here, and he knows the preceding conversations (which were mostly on Facebook, some in messaging -- not here). It was about the DF27+, A431+ community in Khndzoresk (of which he is a member), said to hail from Dersim -- and also speculatively some sort of reflux population from Iberian Galicia, because there are some A431+ persons in Iberia as well as in Armenia.

Mike McG
01-01-2016, 12:36 AM
There's also a Kurdish guy who is L11+, P312-, M405- from further west, DÍrsim. He's tested with 23andMe and unfortunately isn't willing to test anymore.

Mfa,

Was the P312- a call/result from 23&me?

At the time I tested (Mid 2013), I understood the 23&me V3 chip did not test for P312 or R-DF27, as I believe was also the case (at the time) with GENO 2. They did test for some of the downstream SNPs but not all well known or significant splits in the tree, and I do not know what either have added since.

My more specific Y calls at 23&me were as follows:

Variant call anc der
rs13304168 (L52) T C T
rs9785659 (P311) G A G
rs9786076 (L11) C T C
rs9786283 (P310) C A C

My L11+ result, at the time, along with my FTDNA YDNA67 STRs and matches, convinced me I was most likely DF27+; and I have subsequently tested DF27+ and Y5058+ with YSEQ. So I would be interested in understanding if the P312- call an actual call from 23&me or if it was a no call or inferred from other calls?

Mike

MfA
01-01-2016, 08:40 AM
Mfa,

Was the P312- a call/result from 23&me?

At the time I tested (Mid 2013), I understood the 23&me V3 chip did not test for P312 or R-DF27, as I believe was also the case (at the time) with GENO 2. They did test for some of the downstream SNPs but not all well known or significant splits in the tree, and I do not know what either have added since.

My more specific Y calls at 23&me were as follows:

Variant call anc der
rs13304168 (L52) T C T
rs9785659 (P311) G A G
rs9786076 (L11) C T C
rs9786283 (P310) C A C

My L11+ result, at the time, along with my FTDNA YDNA67 STRs and matches, convinced me I was most likely DF27+; and I have subsequently tested DF27+ and Y5058+ with YSEQ. So I would be interested in understanding if the P312- call an actual call from 23&me or if it was a no call or inferred from other calls?

Mike

It's from V3 23andMe.
23andMe haplogroup tree mutation mapper

Positives
R1b1b2a1a defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs13304168 (L52) C T
rs9785659 (P311) A G
rs9786076 (L11) T C
rs9786283 (P310) A C

Negatives
R1b1b2a1a1 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs16981293 (M405) C C

R1b1b2a1a2 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs34276300 (P312) C C


If another L11+ guy (who happens to be Kurdish) from Dersim is P312-, that could suggest that the A431 movement is east to west, rather than (Iberians moving) west to east. Iberian Galicians moving eastward, with the Crusaders or otherwise, would not be expected to be P312-. Do we really need to construct a framework with L11+ Kurds meeting A431+ Armenians on the way back?

Too bad the Kurdish guy didn't test at FTDNA (so his sample is not there, in Houston), and doesn't want to keep testing.

There is an Armenian sample(N9165) from Armenian project who is also L11+, P312-

Mher
01-19-2016, 10:14 PM
It's from V3 23andMe.
23andMe haplogroup tree mutation mapper

Positives
R1b1b2a1a defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs13304168 (L52) C T
rs9785659 (P311) A G
rs9786076 (L11) T C
rs9786283 (P310) A C

Negatives
R1b1b2a1a1 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs16981293 (M405) C C

R1b1b2a1a2 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs34276300 (P312) C C



There is an Armenian sample(N9165) from Armenian project who is also L11+, P312-
And U106-

ADW_1981
01-28-2016, 06:59 PM
It's from V3 23andMe.
23andMe haplogroup tree mutation mapper

Positives
R1b1b2a1a defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs13304168 (L52) C T
rs9785659 (P311) A G
rs9786076 (L11) T C
rs9786283 (P310) A C

Negatives
R1b1b2a1a1 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs16981293 (M405) C C

R1b1b2a1a2 defining mutations
variant call anc der
rs34276300 (P312) C C



There is an Armenian sample(N9165) from Armenian project who is also L11+, P312-

Version 3 of the chip doesn't test for rs34276300. If you browse the raw data, it will come up empty. I believe the exception is if the v2 and v3 data files were merged in an upgrade. In that circumstance I believe it will be reported. He's quite possibly P312+.

Mher
01-31-2016, 09:13 AM
7555 we have new kit from Khndzoresk with df27>A431

Mher
03-11-2016, 01:18 PM
We have new kit 462353 he also have A431 8100

jfttrh44
03-12-2016, 05:06 PM
I donīt want to jump into bigger conclusions but there is a strong theory (supported by various reasons) that connects Armenia with northern Spain (Basques, Cantabrians). Language, History, and even looks. It seems there are people supporting the idea that the original basques came directly from Armenia.

Mher
03-13-2016, 10:07 AM
kit 462353 is my mother father line

Mher
05-12-2016, 07:40 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/KhndzoreskDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults Project for Khndzoresk

Mher
09-04-2016, 06:44 PM
all armenian df27>A431 in this project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/KhndzoreskDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Mher
05-27-2017, 05:46 PM
I have new BigY match-nearest europen from me!He from France!

Mher
05-27-2017, 05:57 PM
I have new BigY match-nearest europen from me!He from France!16338

lgmayka
05-27-2017, 08:52 PM
I have new BigY match-nearest europen from me!He from France!
Are you perhaps YF02191 in the R-Y7363 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y7363/)?

Mher
06-21-2017, 03:05 PM
I have new BigY match-nearest europen from me!He from France!16338
yes that me :)

Mher
08-17-2019, 02:49 PM
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y41710/ we descendents of crussader from France?!https://www.familytreedna.com/public/KhndzoreskDNAProject?iframe=yresults

razyn
08-17-2019, 03:48 PM
By the time of the crusades, DF27 was all over Europe, or formerly had been -- including eastern Europe. So it's still a little premature to think your best match in the modern population is in the original location of your male line -- and that you aren't. You might both be ancestrally from Belgium, or Belarus, or Barcelona. The trail is pretty cold, at the more distant end.