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Anatolian Fighter
06-17-2014, 06:15 PM
What do you think? Turks are mostly west asian.

My another question Anatolian J2 semitic/arabic? (because some people in taurus mountain have blonde hair and light eyes)

Hando
06-17-2014, 07:10 PM
I do not know the answer to this question, but I have always wondered how much of modern Turks are really from Turkic tribes of Central Asia and how much from original indigenous Anatolians? If we could compare an ancient Trojan such as the legendary Hector with a modern day Turk would there be much difference?

J1 DYS388=13
06-18-2014, 07:10 AM
The term Semitic should not be used in a DNA context, because it is anachronistic. J2 is far older than any language group (or ethnicity, if you consider Semitic an ethnicity).

Hando
06-18-2014, 08:34 AM
J2 is far older than any language group (or ethnicity, if you consider Semitic an ethnicity).

I always assumed Semitic was indeed a racial group first (which includes both Arabs and Jews) and a usually accompanying linguistic marker second.

Jean M
06-18-2014, 08:48 AM
My another question Anatolian J2 semitic/arabic? (because some people in taurus mountain have blonde hair and light eyes)

J2 is not specific to Semitic speakers, although some Semitic speakers do carry it. There is a stronger correlation between Semitic speakers and J1. Arabic-speaking Egyptians, Kuwaitis, and Jordanians have far more J1 than J2, whereas the opposite is true for Persian-speaking Iranians. However J1 itself is far older than Proto-Semitic, which arose in the Copper Age. It is the subclade J1b2b (L147) which seems most likely to contain many men whose ancestors in the direct male line spoke a Semitic language in the Copper Age, not just any J1.

Hando
06-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Arabic-speaking Egyptians, Kuwaitis, and Jordanians have far more J1 than J2, whereas the opposite is true for Persian-speaking Iranians.
I would have thought Persian speaking Iranians would have had R1a as they speak an Indo European language. Is the J2 due to Indo Iranian R1as mixing with indigenous J2 speakers?

Jean M
06-18-2014, 08:57 AM
Anatolians are not Indo-Europeans linguistically today, except for minorities who speak an Indo-European language, such as Armenian. However Anatolia has had several waves of incoming Indo-European speakers in its pre-history and history. I would be amazed if there were no genetic survivals of those waves:


The Anatolian branch of IE: Hittite, Luwian, Lycian etc.
The Balkan group of IE languages: Greek, Phrygian, Armenian.
The Celtic influx: Galatians.

Jean M
06-18-2014, 09:00 AM
I would have thought Persian speaking Iranians would have had R1a as they speak an Indo European language. Is the J2 due to Indo Iranian R1as mixing with indigenous J2 speakers?

That seems most likely. See Ancestral Journeys, p. 152 for details, to avoid taking this thread off topic.

RCO
06-18-2014, 12:54 PM
We still can find some Kurdish and Iranian languages spoken in parts of Anatolia like Kurmanji and Zazaki. As usual J2 and J1 are extremely old and diverse in that part of the world and we can find some of the oldest and basal branches there. Semitic J1 is more characterized by a Southern tip branch of derived J1 types while the Anatolian, Iranian and Caucasian types usually are represented by the Northern and basal J1 types.

ZephyrousMandaru
06-18-2014, 06:16 PM
Armenians are one of the few surviving linguistically Indo-European speaking populations. However, it should be noted that Armenians are not primarily descended from Indo-Europeans, but rather the Pre-Indo-European speaking population. Armenians lack considerable amounts of R1a, and have very low North European admixture overall. So it's likely that they were Indo-Europeanized, possibly through elite dominance.

vettor
06-18-2014, 06:54 PM
I do not know the answer to this question, but I have always wondered how much of modern Turks are really from Turkic tribes of Central Asia and how much from original indigenous Anatolians? If we could compare an ancient Trojan such as the legendary Hector with a modern day Turk would there be much difference?

The turkic people did not enter Anatolia prior to 600AD.............so IMO , ancient Anatolians where where indo-europeans.
What % of current turkey is ancient Anatolian ethnicity is hard to calculate.

vettor
06-18-2014, 06:57 PM
I always assumed Semitic was indeed a racial group first (which includes both Arabs and Jews) and a usually accompanying linguistic marker second.

from Humanist recently, semitic map

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2691-The-Raeti-the-Raetic-language-etc&p=42598&viewfull=1#post42598

vettor
06-18-2014, 06:59 PM
Anatolians are not Indo-Europeans linguistically today, except for minorities who speak an Indo-European language, such as Armenian. However Anatolia has had several waves of incoming Indo-European speakers in its pre-history and history. I would be amazed if there were no genetic survivals of those waves:


The Anatolian branch of IE: Hittite, Luwian, Lycian etc.
The Balkan group of IE languages: Greek, Phrygian, Armenian.
The Celtic influx: Galatians.


Did the Phrygians come form Thrace to Anatolia, or from Anatolia to Thrace .............they seem to sit in both areas according to very many historians

DMXX
06-18-2014, 07:23 PM
I don't normally approach topics through a semantical context, but nevertheless:



Are Anatolians Indo European?


Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) is a geographical term referring to most of modern Turkey. Different peoples speaking different languages with varying degrees of presumed genetic continuity up to the present day fit under the term "Anatolian". Some of these people in ancient times spoke an early splinter language from the Indo-European homeland (consensus view being the western Eurasian steppes). These people were described as the Hittites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites).

Modern Anatolians (i.e. citizens of Turkey) therefore likely do have some degree of ancestry from early speakers of Indo-European. Some modern Anatolians (e.g. Zazaki, Armenians, Pontic Greeks) do still speak Indo-European languages, although these are unrelated to Hittite. I have no knowledge regarding the linguistic influence Hittite had on the region.



My another question Anatolian J2 semitic/arabic? (because some people in taurus mountain have blonde hair and light eyes)


Jean has already answered this question well. Y-DNA J2 is found over a large swathe of Eurasia and cannot be attributed to a single ethnicity or linguistic group, be it ancient or modern. Although more limited in scope, Y-DNA J1 can be described in the same terms. Both arose thousands of years ago in prehistoric times, likely in the Middle-East somewhere. Specific subclades of each can, however, be typified by geography, language or ethno-religious background.

Finally, pigmentation in most modern West Eurasian populations seems to be dictated by geography above all else, both macroscopically (proximity to the modern peak around eastern Scandinavian-Baltic region) and microscopically (e.g. physical isolation). This is why, for instance, the Palestinians have a higher frequency of lighter pigmentation alleles than Pakistanis overall, but isolated groups in Pakistan in turn have greater frequencies compared to their neighbours. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1075-Pigmentation-Genotype-Maps-(-Kalash-resolution))

If you would like specific examples, I recommend searching for your desired answers in current literature (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed).

Tomasso29
06-18-2014, 10:18 PM
What do you think? Turks are mostly west asian.

My another question Anatolian J2 semitic/arabic? (because some people in taurus mountain have blonde hair and light eyes)

I'm going to assume that you're new to genetics hence your questions.

Indo European --> A language family.
J2 --> Y-DNA haplogroup (Think before civilizations).
West Asian --> Geographical label (Also used in autosomal genetic studies to group populations).

Since you mention the Turks, here you go:

- Are the Turks Indo-European? No, they speak a Turkic language therefore, they are not.
- Is the Turk J2 Arab? No, their J2 is J2 and the lineage existed long before there was such thing as Arabs.
- Anatolian Turks are West Asians geographically and genetically speaking they are mostly related to their neighbors.