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View Full Version : Z49, where did it come from? How did it expand?



Agamemnon
06-23-2014, 10:01 PM
I strongly suspect my maternal grandfather was Z49+, so I decided to take a look at this marker in particular.
It looks like it could've come to Britain from France, but I'm really at loss here... What do we actually know about this subclade???

Pigmon
09-26-2014, 01:42 PM
That is what I would like to know as well!!

I know this would be highly speculative but I suspect Z49 is from Greece and then France.

Maybe in the future we can find some more evidence that would support this idea.

jbarry6899
09-26-2014, 01:51 PM
I would also be very interested in this. We have 18 men with the surname Barry or Berry who have tested, or are presumed to be, Z49+. I have also tested positive for a downstream SNP, S8183. The surname is generally considered to be Anglo-Norman-Irish but may have originated in Flanders.

Petr
09-27-2014, 01:38 PM
I'm Z49+ S8183+ and my ancestors (17th century) are from Bohemia, Czech Republic now. My closest genetic matches are from Sweden.

You can check https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults and you will see:
Z49+: 30x England, 21x France, 7x Germany, 7x Ireland, 4x Italy, 4x Scotland, 4x Switzerland, 3x Sweden, 1x Czechia, 1x Hungary, 1x Poland, 1x Russia, 1x Spain, 1x United Kingdom, 1x Wales.
Z49+ S8183+: 5x Ireland, 2x Germany, 2x Italy, 2x Sweden, Czechia, England.

Still very small sample.

Petr

jbarry6899
09-27-2014, 03:16 PM
Thanks, Petr--I am awaiting BigY results, which may give us some more clues. Of the 5xIreland, they are all men with my surname and I am actually the only one who has tested S8183.

R.Rocca
09-29-2014, 12:28 AM
That is what I would like to know as well!!

I know this would be highly speculative but I suspect Z49 is from Greece and then France.

Maybe in the future we can find some more evidence that would support this idea.

Highly speculative? I would say it is about as highly unlikely of a scenario as there is. How did you come up with your speculation...(Hopefully it's not linked to your speculation that your single surname "Pigman" is somehow linked to the Pygmalion Myth)?

Pigmon
10-01-2014, 08:51 PM
No, the speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

Roy King concurs:

Roy J King Jr
To
Me
Apr 27, 2013

Dear Curtis,
Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
Best,



GD of 0 ------9
GD of 1 ------9
GD of 2 ------4
GD of 3 ------3
GD of 4 ------5

Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

Regards,
Curtis

R.Rocca
10-02-2014, 11:22 PM
No, the speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

Roy King concurs:

Roy J King Jr
To
Me
Apr 27, 2013

Dear Curtis,
Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
Best,



GD of 0 ------9
GD of 1 ------9
GD of 2 ------4
GD of 3 ------3
GD of 4 ------5

Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

Regards,
Curtis

But you speculated that Z49 was from Greece, which means you included in your speculation all of the Z49 people that do not share an STR signature with you. Besides, it is not very difficult to have small GD with 6 markers, so I'm sure you match at 6 markers with many more populations that are heavy in R1b in Western Europe. Lastly, those R1b samples from Greece could also be something other than Z49 or L2 or U152.

MitchellSince1893
12-15-2014, 03:03 AM
Here is the Z49 tree I made, taken from Richard Rocca's early Dec 2014 U152 Tree.

Unlike the U152 and L2 trees I posted yesterday and today, that only go down 2 levels;

this Z49 Tree goes all the way to the current terminal SNPs based on Richard's tree.

3218

Higher quality image located here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/ba/3e/42/ba3e42ca32be7e13d6ddd625e7cdcbf5.jpg

Let me know if you spot any errors and I will be happy to fix them.

Pigmon
12-15-2014, 03:13 PM
Here is the Z49 tree I made, taken from Richard Rocca's early Dec 2014 U152 Tree.

Unlike the U152 and L2 trees I posted yesterday and today, that only go down 2 levels;

this Z49 Tree goes all the way to the current terminal SNPs based on Richard's tree.

3218

Higher quality image located here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/ba/3e/42/ba3e42ca32be7e13d6ddd625e7cdcbf5.jpg

Let me know if you spot any errors and I will be happy to fix them.

Thanks for doing that Mark. This really shows in a helpful visual way how all of our SNPs are interconnected.

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2014, 05:00 AM
Taking an educated guess based on hearing other's thoughts and ideas, I would estimate the age for U152>L2 to be about 4500 years before present (ybp)

That would make:
Z49 = ~4420 ybp
Z142 & S8183 = ~4340 ybp

Below that in the Z49 tree, I would subtract 120 years for each SNP in a box. For example Z150/Z12222/22867545 would be 120x3 years younger than Z142 or 3980 ybp.

Using this approach, my current terminal SNP FGC12401/02/03/04/05, would be 2812 ybp or around 800 BC.

Based on what others have calculated/estimated, I think these numbers will be within +/- 750 years of the actual ages of these SNPs.

Petr
12-17-2014, 08:00 AM
So if I have 5 known public SNPs below S8183 and 31 private markers 36 x 120 = 4320 ybp, i.e. S8183 should be 4320 years old? This seems to be consistent with your numbers, but STR calclulations show different numbers:3228
If I compare with 309846 (Olsson), I have 31 private SNPs and he has 31 private SNPs as well, it would mean 31 x 120 = 3720 years and not 990 years?

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2014, 12:17 PM
So if I have 5 known public SNPs below S8183 and 31 private markers 36 x 120 = 4320 ybp, i.e. S8183 should be 4320 years old? This seems to be consistent with your numbers, but STR calclulations show different numbers:3228That STR result is similar to my closest match 268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts.
He comes out 1260 ybp while the SNP method produces 2812 ybp.

Tellingly, James Lincoln and Stephen Brace who share 6 less SNPs with me than Horato Roberts (2 levels/SNP blocks up on the Z49 tree from Roberts and me), are 1260 and 1350 ybp respectively via the STR method. The SNP method dates Lincoln and Brace shared SNPs to 3496 ybp. Thus I would be inclined to trust the SNP method over STR.

While it worked in your case, I would caution against counting one's private SNPs and multiplying by 120 (counting from the present to the past vs counting down from L2 or Z49, or Z142).
I say this because 2 men could be on the same terminal branch and have quite a difference in the number of shared mutations.

While 120 years per SNP works as an average it could be way off for the individual

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2014, 12:20 PM
triple post

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2014, 12:22 PM
double post

lgmayka
12-17-2014, 07:42 PM
That would make:
Z49 = ~4420 ybp
When my cousin (kit 64890, who is Z49*) gets his novel SNP count from YFull, I will post it. That will provide a Z49 age calculation independent of others.

Petr
12-17-2014, 08:10 PM
According to FTDNA data seen in BigY matches I see the following count of SNPs below Z49:
64890 - Dyrek (?): 28
249822 - Mitchell (Z142->Z150->Y3140 etc.): 52
72367 - Squecco (S8183->S22778->S5490 etc.): 55
240232 - Barry (S8183->Y4356): 30
N55642 - Bruns (S8183->Y4356): 24
309846 - Olsson (S8183->Y4356->Y4353->S12993): 37
195364 - Soucek (S8183->Y4356->Y4353->S12993): 37

lgmayka
12-18-2014, 12:08 AM
64890 - Dyrek (?): 28
I don't understand where you got this number.

MitchellSince1893
12-18-2014, 01:53 AM
According to FTDNA data seen in BigY matches I see the following count of SNPs below Z49:
64890 - Dyrek (?): 28
249822 - Mitchell (Z142->Z150->Y3140 etc.): 52
72367 - Squecco (S8183->S22778->S5490 etc.): 55
240232 - Barry (S8183->Y4356): 30
N55642 - Bruns (S8183->Y4356): 24
309846 - Olsson (S8183->Y4356->Y4353->S12993): 37
195364 - Soucek (S8183->Y4356->Y4353->S12993): 37

I don't have much faith in FTDNA's numbers as they say I have 108 novel SNPs. Most of these are found in other haplgroups, have already been identified and thus are not novel to me, or are not considered quality matches by either YFull or FGC analysis.

When FGC analyzed my BigY data they found 31 high quality SNPs below Z49.

When YFull analyzed my BigY data they found 30 high quality SNPS below Z49.

When I looked at both FGC and YFull's high quality lists (the 30 of YFull were not exactly the same as the 31 from FGC), I believe I have a total of 34 high quality SNPs below Z49. Of these 34, 28 were originally novel SNPs. With the latest BigY match, I'm down to 23 novel SNPs.

Based on the above I wouldn't put much emphasis on FTDNA's SNP count. Instead I would look at what FGC and/or Yfull analysis identifies.

lgmayka
12-18-2014, 04:17 PM
64890 - Dyrek (?): 28
The first steps in YFull analysis of #64890 are starting to arrive.

First, it is already clear that coverage is not as high as we hoped. Both Z49 and Z68 had no calls, so YFull had to place him (as "new") at the L2* level (http://yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b1/) even though Sanger sequencing found him Z49+ .

Second, his novel SNPs are a little fewer than expected:

Private SNPs (all): 46
Best qual: 27 (58.70%) [19 (41.30%) - best; 8 (17.39%) - acceptable]
INDELs: 0
Ambiguous qual: 18 (39.13%)
One read!: 0
Low qual: 1 (2.17%)

A count of 27 reliable (best- and acceptable-quality) SNPs equates to a TMRCA of only 3800-4000 years.

R.Rocca
12-18-2014, 04:25 PM
The first steps in YFull analysis of #64890 are starting to arrive.

First, it is already clear that coverage is not as high as we hoped. Both Z49 and Z68 had no calls, so YFull had to place him (as "new") at the L2* level (http://yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b1/) even though Sanger sequencing found him Z49+ .

Second, his novel SNPs are a little fewer than expected:

Private SNPs (all): 46
Best qual: 27 (58.70%) [19 (41.30%) - best; 8 (17.39%) - acceptable]
INDELs: 0
Ambiguous qual: 18 (39.13%)
One read!: 0
Low qual: 1 (2.17%)

A count of 27 reliable (best- and acceptable-quality) SNPs equates to a TMRCA of only 3800-4000 years.

If you can send me his YFull results, I'll try to compare them with what I have in my database.

Petr
12-18-2014, 07:53 PM
It looks like BigY process is not able to test Z49 and Z68/S485 SNPs at all. I had to test them separately too. All BigY results analyzed by YFull (R-U152 group) show "no call" for both Z49 and Z68/S485.

Regarding your results, you should have just one known SNP below L2, S22340, right? But it seems to be observed in R-U106 samples too.

lgmayka
12-18-2014, 11:39 PM
Regarding your results, you should have just one known SNP below L2, S22340, right? But it seems to be observed in R-U106 samples too.
#64890 is indeed positive (derived) at 19476809 (S22340).

MitchellSince1893
12-19-2014, 12:15 AM
The first steps in YFull analysis of #64890 are starting to arrive.

First, it is already clear that coverage is not as high as we hoped. Both Z49 and Z68 had no calls, so YFull had to place him (as "new") at the L2* level (http://yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b1/) even though Sanger sequencing found him Z49+ .

Second, his novel SNPs are a little fewer than expected:

Private SNPs (all): 46
Best qual: 27 (58.70%) [19 (41.30%) - best; 8 (17.39%) - acceptable]
INDELs: 0
Ambiguous qual: 18 (39.13%)
One read!: 0
Low qual: 1 (2.17%)

A count of 27 reliable (best- and acceptable-quality) SNPs equates to a TMRCA of only 3800-4000 years.

I too had no calls for Z49 and Z68. They may not be in the area that BigY tests.

27 SNPs is only 3 less than what Yfull identified on my kit below Z49. If your cousin can do it, I recommend he also do the FGC analysis. It may identify a few more novel SNPs

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2015, 04:16 AM
Updated Z49 tree based on Richard Rocca's Jan 2015 U152 Tree and YTree version 3.1

3384

Higher Resolution version here http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/74/eb/57/74eb572e15f66fe01bfcd18b4e09518c.jpg

MitchellSince1893
02-26-2015, 02:30 AM
Updated Z49 Organizational Chart, based on Richard Rocca's Mar 2015 U152 Tree and YTree version 3.5

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fe/bc/62/febc62696df69cf95a79b99736c608f2.jpg

Higher resolution version located here https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fe/bc/62/febc62696df69cf95a79b99736c608f2.jpg

Shamash
03-01-2015, 12:46 PM
Isn't it far more likely that Z49/Z142 was part of the Bell Beaker culture in Central Europe and later diversified into an Italic & Celtic branch? As my maternal y-line (Z12222+) is from Molise in Southern Italy and far away from any other sample I suspect it could have entered Italy very early .

MitchellSince1893
03-01-2015, 09:16 PM
Z49 is pretty widespread. It has members from Corsica, Czech Republic, England, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, The Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Wales.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zzYgXMi2ZzXQ.khOO-3oaaflc&msa=0

Fully recognizing the limitations of using the current distribution of a haplogroup, I did a little exercise. U152 is often described as having a radiated pattern of dispersal from a center point. So maybe Z49 has a similar distribution.

Rather than entering all the Z49 samples and getting a skewed result due over representation of British Isles samples; I took representative samples from the various countries above to get an approximate geographic center point for Z49. For what it's worth this point is 49.34 N, 5.84 E, in France 14 miles south of the point where France, Belgium and Luxembourg meet. (EDIT see my post below for updated center point)
3887

Here is where that pt is on a Bell Beaker map.
3888

So maybe the origin of Z49 was with the Upper Rhine Bell Beaker folks to the east of the Z49 center point? Just some food for thought...I'm not wedded to it.

jbarry6899
03-01-2015, 09:49 PM
For what it's worth, the Irish Z49 families were Anglo-Norman and probably originated in the region of Tournai, Flanders, some time late in the first millenium, C. E. That would move your centroid a bit but would be consistent with your overall conclusion.

Jim

MitchellSince1893
03-01-2015, 11:05 PM
For what it's worth, the Irish Z49 families were Anglo-Norman and probably originated in the region of Tournai, Flanders, some time late in the first millenium, C. E. That would move your centroid a bit but would be consistent with your overall conclusion.

Jim

I ran it again with the Irish moved to Tournai, Flanders and digging a little further into a few data bases with new samples found from Sardinia, Cataluna and Balearic isles.

The results are: 48.888706 N and 6.110821 E or just east of Atton, France. The center pt moved 34 miles SSW from the first run...or about 80 miles east of the Rhine River at Strasbourg.
3889
3891

Agamemnon
03-02-2015, 03:50 AM
Personally, I think Eastern-Central BB were R-U152 while Rhenish Beakers were mostly R-L21 but I could be wrong.

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 09:24 PM
Request was made for a S8183 midpt in another thread.

For Barry (1 entry for this surname) I used Tournai, Flanders rather than the Irish location.

S8183 MidPt is near Stichtsekant, Netherlands (had to manually add the mid point symbol to the map because it was hidden behind the another red balloon symbol in The Netherlands)
Latitude: 52.306703 N, Longitude: 5.387256 E.
5023


With updated Z142 Mid Pt and new S8183 Mid Pt
5024

Keep in mind that the Z49 map in posts 28 and 30 had many entries that hadn't been tested for either Z142 or S8183...many from Central Europe...hence the reason that Z49 isn't more in between Z142 and S8183. Also there are now more than 2 branches of Z49.

jbarry6899
06-21-2015, 09:40 PM
That's really very useful. Thanks for doing it. It might also be interesting some time to chart the Z49+/Z142- results. Some of them would be S8183+ and others in yet to be discovered subclades.

PS--what are you using to calculate the midpoints?

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 10:39 PM
That's really very useful. Thanks for doing it. It might also be interesting some time to chart the Z49+/Z142- results. Some of them would be S8183+ and others in yet to be discovered subclades.

PS--what are you using to calculate the midpoints?
You're welcome.

I use http://www.geomidpoint.com/ and comb through the FTDNA U152 project and Richard Rocca's U152 tree and enter the locations...not too hard to do, but a little tedious on the larger groups.

For a small haplogroup (~100 or less) I will use all the samples I can find.

For larger haplogroups e.g. L2 or U152, I use a sampling of kits, trying to capture the full extent of the area covered by the haplogroup while attempting to avoid the British Isles testing bias....so this will obviously introduce some subjectivity into the equation.

These midpoint locations are subject to change as new data comes in but they shouldn't change by a huge amount (less than 100 miles in most cases).

For example I just did a map for L20. On the first run I entered almost every entry...approximately 80 (except for duplicate surnames in the same group). It was British heaving so I removed around 13 British entries. The mid pt moved 80 miles Southeast after removing these Brits.

It's not an exact science but it will get you in the ball park.

More importantly it could potentially reveal patterns e.g. the Westward progression of midpoints from U152 to L2 to Z49 to Z142.

Could this technique be used to help determine the spread and direction of haplogroups over time? Possibly, but there is always the concern of reading too much into modern geographic distributions and frequency.

If nothing else it just another analysis tool that may help point us in the right direction (pun intended :) ).

lgmayka
06-21-2015, 10:49 PM
Also there are now more than 2 branches of Z49.
The "fairest" way to place a parent node is at the midpoint (by some definition) of its immediate children. In other words, a singleton R-Z49* should be given just as much weight as the entire R-Z142 clade, because that clade descends from a single child lineage just as the singleton does. Unfortunately, the Big Y rarely detects Z49, so an R-Z49* often ends up listed by YFull simply as R-L2 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-L2/). But YF02497 (FTDNA kit 64890 of Poland), for example, is actually Z49+ and thus R-Z49*.

Do we know whether YF01527, YF02311, or YF03454 have been tested at Z49 ?

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 11:08 PM
The "fairest" way to place a parent node is at the midpoint (by some definition) of its immediate children. In other words, a singleton R-Z49* should be given just as much weight as the entire R-Z142 clade, because that clade descends from a single child lineage just as the singleton does. Unfortunately, the Big Y rarely detects Z49, so an R-Z49* often ends up listed by YFull simply as R-L2 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-L2/). But YF02497 (FTDNA kit 64890 of Poland), for example, is actually Z49+ and thus R-Z49*.

Do we know whether YF01527, YF02311, or YF03454 have been tested at Z49 ?

Yes there are two different methods one could use.

1. Mid pt for all known Z49 samples
2. Mid pt of the mid pts for all known Z49 branches

I see your point on why method 2 may be more informative on where Z49 may have originated...assuming a radiated pattern of dispersal from a center pt for all the branches and you have enough samples for the other branches to get a useful midpoint.

Another branch of Z49
U152> L2> Z49,Z68> 3251629 et a
B22173 Johann Stratmann, b.1765, Bad Wünnenberg Germany R-U152
144940 ROBARDS, John b.1684 ?Wales Wales R-Z49

Others who are Z49 negative for both Z142 and S8183...branch TBD
-B2472 George Waters, b. 1781 and d. 1860 England
-64890 Wojciech Dyrek, b. 1900, Lacko, Poland Poland

With such small samples for the above, I'm not sure how much value there would be to calculate mid pts between Wales and Germany; and England and Poland. Thus I think method 1 more viable in this situation.

But for the sake of argument: If we assume George Waters and Wojciech Dyrek are on the same branch and I plot their mid pt along with Z142, S8183, and 3251629 et al,

The mid pt is: Latitude: 51.33774, Longitude: 4.963346 near Turnhout, Belgium.

But again with such small samples sizes for the non Z142 and S8183 branches I'm not sure this pt is of much value.

Sven Vermaete
06-25-2015, 04:56 PM
The "fairest" way to place a parent node is at the midpoint (by some definition) of its immediate children. In other words, a singleton R-Z49* should be given just as much weight as the entire R-Z142 clade, because that clade descends from a single child lineage just as the singleton does. Unfortunately, the Big Y rarely detects Z49, so an R-Z49* often ends up listed by YFull simply as R-L2 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-L2/). But YF02497 (FTDNA kit 64890 of Poland), for example, is actually Z49+ and thus R-Z49*.

Do we know whether YF01527, YF02311, or YF03454 have been tested at Z49 ?

I'm YF02311,

I have a no call on Z49 in my bam file but i tested for Z49 in 2011 and that result was negative back then.

JamesGen
07-12-2015, 09:35 PM
Yes there are two different methods one could use.

1. Mid pt for all known Z49 samples
2. Mid pt of the mid pts for all known Z49 branches

I see your point on why method 2 may be more informative on where Z49 may have originated...assuming a radiated pattern of dispersal from a center pt for all the branches and you have enough samples for the other branches to get a useful midpoint.

Another branch of Z49
U152> L2> Z49,Z68> 3251629 et a
B22173 Johann Stratmann, b.1765, Bad Wünnenberg Germany R-U152
144940 ROBARDS, John b.1684 ?Wales Wales R-Z49

Others who are Z49 negative for both Z142 and S8183...branch TBD
-B2472 George Waters, b. 1781 and d. 1860 England
-64890 Wojciech Dyrek, b. 1900, Lacko, Poland Poland

With such small samples for the above, I'm not sure how much value there would be to calculate mid pts between Wales and Germany; and England and Poland. Thus I think method 1 more viable in this situation.

But for the sake of argument: If we assume George Waters and Wojciech Dyrek are on the same branch and I plot their mid pt along with Z142, S8183, and 3251629 et al,

The mid pt is: Latitude: 51.33774, Longitude: 4.963346 near Turnhout, Belgium.

But again with such small samples sizes for the non Z142 and S8183 branches I'm not sure this pt is of much value.

I am B22173 on FTDNA. Johann Stratmann is my gggggrandfather. I too was surprised to see a connection with Robards of Wales. I'm not sure what meaning it has if any going back that far. I suspect that Johann's distant ancestors came from the Alps region.

MitchellSince1893
09-02-2015, 11:32 PM
For my Z49 Brethren:

It's been a while since my last update to the Z49 tree. It's based on Richard Rocca's Sep 2015 U152 Tree and YTree.

It's getting so cluttered/detailed I may just do a Z142 tree in the future.

Higher resolution version located here: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/88/49/17/884917f1e77c27b09b73d620115f7b20.png


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/88/49/17/884917f1e77c27b09b73d620115f7b20.png

lgmayka
09-03-2015, 12:29 AM
For my Z49 Brethren:

It's been a while since my last update to the Z49 tree. It's based on Richard Rocca's Sep 2015 U152 Tree and YTree.
Don't forget Z49* singletons like kit 64890 of Poland.

kinman
09-03-2015, 02:42 AM
I believe that the Z49* singleton of Poland is a member of the central box (with numbers 3251629, etc.). But I am unsure what those numbers mean. Are they Y-position numbers for unnamed SNPs (and therefore not listed by ISOGG)?

What I can't figure out is: what is a "floating SNP"? I haven't been able to find a definition for a floating SNP.
---------Ken

lgmayka
09-03-2015, 03:09 AM
I believe that the Z49* singleton of Poland is a member of the central box (with numbers 3251629, etc.). But I am unsure what those numbers mean. Are they Y-position numbers for unnamed SNPs (and therefore not listed by ISOGG)?
Those are indeed unnamed SNPs, but the Polish Z49* does not have them. They must belong to someone else.

MitchellSince1893
09-03-2015, 04:33 PM
Don't forget Z49* singletons like kit 64890 of Poland.
Added 64890, but if I add every singleton on every sub branch it will rapidly get unweldy. I'd prefer to wait until there are 2 matches in this situation.

kinman
09-03-2015, 04:39 PM
Those are indeed unnamed SNPs, but the Polish Z49* does not have them. They must belong to someone else.

Thanks for the correction. My bad for posting something last night when I should have been in bed.
But besides adding a Z49* box for the singleton from Poland, where should the next two people be placed who have a floating SNP? I'm still not clear on what a floating SNP is.
---------------Ken

MitchellSince1893
09-03-2015, 04:50 PM
Someone correct me but I believe a floating SNP is one that is found in multiple haplgroups. Sometimes they will be labeled. ####.1 for one haplgroup and ####.2 for another to distinguish which one is being discussed.

I believe SNP P25 might be an example of a floating SNP.

lgmayka
09-03-2015, 07:11 PM
I'd prefer to wait until there are 2 matches in this situation.
Just this week he finally (after 9 years!) got a reasonably close 67-marker match, from Slovakia. Persuading that person to order the Big Y is the next task. :)

MitchellSince1893
09-03-2015, 07:34 PM
Just this week he finally (after 9 years!) got a reasonably close 67-marker match, from Slovakia. Persuading that person to order the Big Y is the next task. :)
I hear you.
I've been waiting over 3 years for my 1st 37 marker match. So far I've had no matches above 25 markers

haleaton
09-03-2015, 08:23 PM
I hear you.
I've been waiting over 3 years for my 1st 37 marker match. So far I've had no matches above 25 markers

Perhaps a clue to the ethnicity of the NPE from demographics of Family Surname Projects and Haplogroup Projects when compared with your autosomal ethnicity estimate? Might indicate immigrant to the UK after large migration to US ended and not part of mass migration of Germans and Scandinavians to the US.

MitchellSince1893
09-03-2015, 09:37 PM
Perhaps a clue to the ethnicity of the NPE from demographics of Family Surname Projects and Haplogroup Projects when compared with your autosomal ethnicity estimate? Might indicate immigrant to the UK after large migration to US ended and not part of mass migration of Germans and Scandinavians to the US.

I would like to discuss this with you more...this would be a more appropriate thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3987-Help-me-to-solve-a-family-Mystery-My-paternal-line-before-my-great-grandfather/page4

kinman
09-07-2015, 03:12 PM
I was looking at your map with the midpoints from U152 through Z142. I was wondering if those midpoint calculations included the Z142 members from Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (that we were recently discussing in the "Two branches of Z142" thread. If they weren't included, I wonder if their inclusion would have much effect on the U152 and L2 midpoints, perhaps pulling them a little further south and west (and therefore closer to the Danube River).
------------Ken


Request was made for a S8183 midpt in another thread.

For Barry (1 entry for this surname) I used Tournai, Flanders rather than the Irish location.

S8183 MidPt is near Stichtsekant, Netherlands (had to manually add the mid point symbol to the map because it was hidden behind the another red balloon symbol in The Netherlands)
Latitude: 52.306703 N, Longitude: 5.387256 E.
5023


With updated Z142 Mid Pt and new S8183 Mid Pt
5024

Keep in mind that the Z49 map in posts 28 and 30 had many entries that hadn't been tested for either Z142 or S8183...many from Central Europe...hence the reason that Z49 isn't more in between Z142 and S8183. Also there are now more than 2 branches of Z49.

MitchellSince1893
09-07-2015, 08:37 PM
I was looking at your map with the midpoints from U152 through Z142. I was wondering if those midpoint calculations included the Z142 members from Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (that we were recently discussing in the "Two branches of Z142" thread. If they weren't included, I wonder if their inclusion would have much effect on the U152 and L2 midpoints, perhaps pulling them a little further south and west (and therefore closer to the Danube River).
------------Ken
No they weren't included. My WAG would be about 30 miles further south (near Paris) if these 3 were included.

Here is the website if you want to try it out. http://www.geomidpoint.com.

Just be aware of the British Isles bias in testing i.e. If you enter every Z142 sample it will be biased towards the UK.

Also you don't want to enter the same surname everytime it's mentioned in the FTDNA U152 project e.g. there are multiple Drapeau/Roy, Perrot, Hill, Stewart, Langley, Davenport, Foakes, Harding, Graves, Lincoln, Beaugrand, and Ward.

kinman
09-19-2015, 03:35 AM
I haven't had time to try it yet. Sort of waiting to see if more Z142 (and/or Z49) are found further south. And it now looks like we have a new R-Z142 from Italy (with micro-allele 13.2). That should pull their midpoints a bit more south and east. Closer to what I believe is their place of origin----near the Rhine River along the border between France and Germany. But I guess their midpoints will never get that far east, since most of the migration has been westward. Also expect the two older haplogroup's midpoints on the map to move south, closer to the Danube River (although even more slowly).
--------------Ken

Walkman
11-05-2015, 04:52 AM
Here is the Z49 tree I made, taken from Richard Rocca's early Dec 2014 U152 Tree.

Unlike the U152 and L2 trees I posted yesterday and today, that only go down 2 levels;

this Z49 Tree goes all the way to the current terminal SNPs based on Richard's tree.

3218

Higher quality image located here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/ba/3e/42/ba3e42ca32be7e13d6ddd625e7cdcbf5.jpg

Let me know if you spot any errors and I will be happy to fix them.

Thanks for the update, Mark!

mimiloves
03-24-2017, 03:45 PM
I would also be very interested in this. We have 18 men with the surname Barry or Berry who have tested, or are presumed to be, Z49+. I have also tested positive for a downstream SNP, S8183. The surname is generally considered to be Anglo-Norman-Irish but may have originated in Flanders.

Hello,

We must be related somewhere along the line. My grandfather is U152 and he is a Berry. Would love to speak with you and share family trees.

Melissa

jbarry6899
03-24-2017, 03:53 PM
Hello,

We must be related somewhere along the line. My grandfather is U152 and he is a Berry. Would love to speak with you and share family trees.

Melissa

Melissa, you can email me directly at [email protected] and the Barry DNA Project is here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Barry/default.aspx

We would be happy to have your grandfather join if he is not already a member.

srolle
12-09-2017, 11:47 PM
Hello all. My paternal ancestors came from Northern Italy and I'm R-Z49. Curious if there's any estimate of when R-Z49 may have broken off from U152?

MitchellSince1893
12-10-2017, 04:03 AM
Hello all. My paternal ancestors came from Northern Italy and I'm R-Z49. Curious if there's any estimate of when R-Z49 may have broken off from U152?
There are presently3 different dating sources. FTDNA is suppose to come out with a fourth next year.

Yfull has Z49: formed 4400 years before present ypb or 2450 BC (4900-4000 ybp)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z49/

Iain McDonald doesn't have Z49 on his tree but he has L2 (ancestor of Z49) at 2713 BC (3270 BC — 2216 BC) and Z142 (Descendant of Z49) at 2556 BC (3148 BC — 1979 BC) Midpoint is 2635 BC
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

While Alex Williamson has Z49 at 4254 YBP (2305 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2800 BC to 1858 BC.
http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=420

So based on the above estimates Z49 probably formed ~2400 BC +/- 400 years

Roy Paul
12-11-2017, 03:07 AM
Hi Found this post interesting as I'm Z49 awaiting results from the Z49 SNP pack I ordered a few week back & my ancestors are from the villages called Kapsweyer & Steinfeld Pfalz Germany near the French border & the Rhine River so your origin theory my be correct !

emc
02-20-2018, 12:32 PM
Hello all. My paternal ancestors came from Northern Italy and I'm R-Z49. Curious if there's any estimate of when R-Z49 may have broken off from U152?

Hi, I have just received my results and I'm also R-Z49 with ancestors from Northern Italy (Mantua).

Shamash
02-20-2018, 05:20 PM
Hi, I have just received my results and I'm also R-Z49 with ancestors from Northern Italy (Mantua).
Welcome! Our Z49 line is also from Italy but a little bit more south the Molise region ;)

serckesh
11-29-2018, 07:01 AM
My ancestors with the surname Ankushev have been living in Siberia since 1629.
I did a Big-Y analysis at FTDNA and received a subclad R1b-U152-Z49-S8172.
In the FTDNA R1b-U152 project, I have 12 matches with S8172, mainly from Germany and England, 1 person from Norway, 1 from Poland.
I made a map of the subclad Z49 and noticed that it coincides with the distribution of the haplogroups R1b-U106 and I1.


There is very little R1b in Russia and there is only 1 R1b-Z49 from Vyatka, its ancestors have been living there since the 17th century.
I assume that the origin of Z49 in Russia is from the Vikings-Varyags of the 8-10 centuries. But there are doubts, since they write everywhere that R1b-U152 belongs to the Hallstatt culture of the Gauls and Italics.

I uploaded my data to YFUll and to YTREE.net.
My number is FTNA IN30992, YFull YF16019

I ask you to express your opinion on how my ancestors could get to Russia. Were they Scandinavians or Continental Germans or maybe Celts?

Acque agitate
11-29-2018, 11:52 AM
I know your case because I've been studying it for a long time and I had foreseen your membership in S8172. As I have already reported on the facebook page in Italian dedicated to R1b-U152, in my opinion your genetic line S8172 is to be related to the gothic populations.



My ancestors with the surname Ankushev have been living in Siberia since 1629.
I did a Big-Y analysis at FTDNA and received a subclad R1b-U152-Z49-S8172.
In the FTDNA R1b-U152 project, I have 12 matches with S8172, mainly from Germany and England, 1 person from Norway, 1 from Poland.
I made a map of the subclad Z49 and noticed that it coincides with the distribution of the haplogroups R1b-U106 and I1.


There is very little R1b in Russia and there is only 1 R1b-Z49 from Vyatka, its ancestors have been living there since the 17th century.
I assume that the origin of Z49 in Russia is from the Vikings-Varyags of the 8-10 centuries. But there are doubts, since they write everywhere that R1b-U152 belongs to the Hallstatt culture of the Gauls and Italics.

I uploaded my data to YFUll and to YTREE.net.
My number is FTNA IN30992, YFull YF16019

I ask you to express your opinion on how my ancestors could get to Russia. Were they Scandinavians or Continental Germans or maybe Celts?

serckesh
11-29-2018, 12:15 PM
I know your case because I've been studying it for a long time and I had foreseen your membership in S8172. As I have already reported on the facebook page in Italian dedicated to R1b-U152, in my opinion your genetic line S8172 is to be related to the gothic populations.

Thanks for your reply. It is very interesting.
Could you share your reasons why you consider the origin of the S8172 to be Gothic for me. I know that the Goths lived in the 3-4th century on the Dnieper and some of their descendants could have stayed there. But in Ukraine there is no R-z49. And Siberia was first settled by immigrants from Novgorod, who had close ties with the Scandinavians, so I assumed that my ancestors could be from Scandinavia

asquecco
05-19-2019, 09:06 AM
I'm also collecting Z49+ results , from people who tested with 23andme.
More precisely, they are all Z49>S8183>S22778>S20782+:
https://bit.ly/YDNA-R-S20782
On average, each 23andme account has 1K autosomal matches and using the "Search" field provided in the "DNA Relatives" page, it's possible to search for the R-S20782 paternal group among these matches.
S20782 is being tested by chip V5 since Aug 2017.
Even considering biases and approximations in the collected data, the following picture, based on more than 800 23andme users' feedback, is clear: there is a big present-day Z49+ component (S20782 in this case) South of the Alps.
This is the thread for my R-S20782 project:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16057-R-S20782-a-flavor-of-north-Adriatic-sea
Adriano

30502

MitchellSince1893
05-19-2019, 01:34 PM
I'm also collecting Z49+ results , from people who tested with 23andme.
More precisely, they are all Z49>S8183>S22778>S20782+:
https://bit.ly/YDNA-R-S20782
On average, each 23andme account has 1K autosomal matches and using the "Search" field provided in the "DNA Relatives" page, it's possible to search for the R-S20782 paternal group among these matches.
S20782 is being tested by chip V5 since Aug 2017.
Even considering biases and approximations in the collected data, the following picture, based on more than 800 23andme users' feedback, is clear: there is a big present-day Z49+ component (S20782 in this case) South of the Alps.
This is the thread for my R-S20782 project:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16057-R-S20782-a-flavor-of-north-Adriatic-sea
Adriano

30502

Is there a list of 23andme SNPs tested below Z49? I'm curious if my father has any matches on 23andme below Z49?

asquecco
05-19-2019, 03:25 PM
Is there a list of 23andme SNPs tested below Z49? I'm curious if my father has any matches on 23andme below Z49?

I can only provide the list of the SNPs tested by 23andme under S8183. If I'm not mistaken, it should be like this:

30507