View Full Version : L-L595 is Anatolian ?

01-28-2023, 02:17 PM
Anatolian IE speakers have no reasonable representative from haplogroup R, and apparently lack Steppe ancestry.

L-L595 starts appearing in Anatolia and the Aegean from the Bronze Age, and the oldest samples are from Maykop, dating close to the subclade's age 3500-3300 BC.

it was more common in the Bronze/Iron Age than it is now.

-Maykop samples: MK5001, MK5004, I11131 (3400-3000 BCE)
-Iran Tepe Hissar: 2923 (2900-2600 BCE)
-Nea Styra, Euboea Greece, NST010 (2600-2400 BCE)
-Alalakh MLBA: ALA084, Hatay Province Turkey (2012-1775 BCE)
-Philistine from Ashkelon: ASH087, (1200-1000 BCE), the origin of the Philistines and most sea peoples is likely Aegean or western Anatolian.
-Kuriki Hoyuk, 14734, Batman, Turkey (1000-100 BCE).
-Himera, Sicily Ancient Greeks, samples: (1480, 4666, 3182, 2590) (700-400 BCE)
-Halikarnassos western Anatolia, 3225, (500-400 BCE) Bodrum Turkey.

it still can be found in Turkey and Mediterranean Europe, it was obviously more common in the past, migrations to Anatolia and Greece apparently reduced its frequency.

how plausible is a migration from Maykop to Anatolia ?

01-28-2023, 06:17 PM
That's a very interesting clade also related to the "Eastern Wing of Southern Arc", samples were found in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, Iran, all pretty tough and competitive regions in the last 5000 years. In order to survive after so many ethno-historical, political, religious and military changes was not an easy task to any other Y-DNA clade originally from that region, as my own J1-FGC6064 clade, in our case we had branches in NW Iran and in Atlantic Portugal (Portuguese Empire) surviving and expanding well because they were inserted in polities. In the case of L-595 they only have L-PF5761 in Sardinia 600 CE https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/L-PF5761/tree and they were not lucky to find other specific geopolitical niches of continuity to ramificate and develop a long line of SNPs in the same region as an ethno-historical or national well recognized local/regional cluster.

01-29-2023, 11:59 AM
What's the dating for the Maykop culture samples? Isn't it too late for them to be proto-Anatolians?

01-29-2023, 02:30 PM
There's a big gap in the formation of L-595
L-L855 * Z20055 * Z20139+227 SNPs and L-595 formed 23100 ybp, TMRCA 6300 ybp (YFull)
L-M20 - 22000 BCE and L-595 - 4000BCE (FTDNA)
As always the same question about the causes, origins and location of a long trail of unbroken SNPs (almost 18000 years !).

Other case
I-Y16419SK1275 * FT20884 * Y16678+159 SNPs formed 15500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp - more than 11000 years.
When a lineage had several ramifications like I-Z26403 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z26403/ around 4000 ybp
They arrived in the Southern Caucasus because they were not Early Bronze Age (EBA), Neolithic or Mesolithic natives in the Southern Arc and they were more associated with regions only in the Caucasus and Armenia, not found in regular ramifications and branches in Iran, for instance.

01-29-2023, 02:58 PM
OK but is there something that makes them more likely to be specifically Anatolian speakers as opposed to speakers of one of the multiple other languages spoken in or near the Caucasus region at that time?

01-29-2023, 03:20 PM
The best and only methodology is to investigate the structure and distribution of SNPs in terms of the linguistic and ethnic clusters found in different populations. The SNPs usually follow the longue durée of the ethno-historical/linguistic frontiers, lineages found in different Indo-European populations like modern Armenian and specially in the diverse Iranian populations with different branches and ancient ramifications present in Gilaki, Mazandarani, Persian, Kurd is not the same found in Kartvelian, Nakh--Daghestanian, Abkhazo-Adyghean, for example.