PDA

View Full Version : New "Bristol Channel DNA" project at FTDNA with secondary focus on CTS7822



Geolocke
06-26-2014, 01:56 AM
It has taken a month for me to finally get approval for this project, but it is now up and live. I still need to clean up and refine the project language, but in a nutshell, I have begun a geographic Y-DNA project for the Counties adjoining the shores of the Bristol Channel in Great Brittan.

The primary focus is to find family members belonging to my cluster's group of surnames to test and hopefully find matches for our trees, but all surnames are welcome and the secondary purpose is to determine how prevalent CTS7822 is among the population of the region.

I hope to do some local advertizing in the region (as funds permit) to draw attention to the project and hopefully generate some more tests.

The link to the project's public web site is HERE (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BristolChannelDNA/)
Suggestions for refining the language for the secondary purpose (CTS7822 under the goals tab) are most welcome.

I can not guarantee that this project will take off, but I sure hope that it will.

Cheers! :beerchug:

vettor
06-26-2014, 06:57 AM
It has taken a month for me to finally get approval for this project, but it is now up and live. I still need to clean up and refine the project language, but in a nutshell, I have begun a geographic Y-DNA project for the Counties adjoining the shores of the Bristol Channel in Great Brittan.

The primary focus is to find family members belonging to my cluster's group of surnames to test and hopefully find matches for our trees, but all surnames are welcome and the secondary purpose is to determine how prevalent CTS7822 is among the population of the region.

I hope to do some local advertizing in the region (as funds permit) to draw attention to the project and hopefully generate some more tests.

The link to the project's public web site is HERE (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BristolChannelDNA/)
Suggestions for refining the language for the secondary purpose (CTS7822 under the goals tab) are most welcome.

I can not guarantee that this project will take off, but I sure hope that it will.

Cheers! :beerchug:

you need to fix your mtdna x person...........Lucca is in NW tuscany, not in Venice
most likely this person went to England during the Napoleonic wars as british ships patrolled the tuscan, toman and neapolitan coasts for a very long time..........I recall Nelson and lady Hamilton as part of this

Geolocke
06-26-2014, 10:05 AM
Thanks Vettor, I though I had fixed that twice now. My ancestress came from Lucca, and her mother died in Lucca. at one time there had been thought that she had been born in Venice, but that was a false lead. Thanks for pointing out the error.

razyn
06-28-2014, 02:10 PM
The project description seems a bit skewed, i.e. attempting to prove a theory about a specific subclade. As FTDNA projects go, isn't that a haplogroup project, rather than a geographical one?

The Bristol Channel concept interests me, too, but for an entirely different haplogroup/subclade that's been tracking frequently to that geography. If that has any resonance with your project goals, I could fill in the blanks. You may glimpse our little CTS4065+, L484+ cluster (currently Group Bba) in the classic or colorized Y-DNA results, here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?

Geolocke
06-28-2014, 05:37 PM
The project description seems a bit skewed, i.e. attempting to prove a theory about a specific subclade. As FTDNA projects go, isn't that a haplogroup project, rather than a geographical one?

The Bristol Channel concept interests me, too, but for an entirely different haplogroup/subclade that's been tracking frequently to that geography. If that has any resonance with your project goals, I could fill in the blanks. You may glimpse our little CTS4065+, L484+ cluster (currently Group Bba) in the classic or colorized Y-DNA results, here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?

Thanks for the comments razyn! Yeah, it's more of a fantasy than a theory and I should probably remove that from the description. I've see a lot of loose threads about CTS7822 that might make sense of its presence in GB if ancient mining was tossed into the mix, and that region does have Roman and Bronze age copper and Tin mines present, but in the end, it is still fantasy without some kind of hard evidence to go along.

The project is more of a Hybrid between Geographic and SNP, than truly one or the other. There are several families that mine is closely related to (genetically speaking) at sometime in the past, probably before the age of surnames. Our leads all take us back to areas around the Bristol Channel and who knows what other family names might be related? When thinking about setting up this project, I wanted to focus on the area and people we (our families) are looking for, but I didn't want to make the requirements so restrictive that other folks would feel like they were not invited to join just because they don't exactly match the project's existing surnames. The fact that (so far) we're all CTS7822 just adds to the interest for us.

So, the project is first and foremost about trying to generate Y-DNA tests for our Surnames (and others) in that general region to see if we can tie our families together -or- better define the time back to our MRCA. The fact that we also happen to be CTS7822 means that there is also a possibility of determining how widespread this SNP is in this region by the gathering of more tests from this area (ie. is this a small cluster or a regional cluster).

Whether that kind of data would be useful to anyone remains to be seen depending on results gathered.

Thanks again for the critique. I am trying to clean up the page to make it clearer and cleaner and your comments are of great help. -geo

Geolocke
07-02-2014, 12:48 AM
The Bristol Channel concept interests me, too, but for an entirely different haplogroup/subclade that's been tracking frequently to that geography. If that has any resonance with your project goals, I could fill in the blanks.

Razyn, I would like to hear more about your interest in the Bristol Channel. Would that be suitable in this forum or another?

razyn
07-02-2014, 01:26 AM
It's just what I said in post #4, but I could elaborate. It's geographically similar to your situation, but a very different SNP, within the old "North/south cluster" of P312 (which is now known to be under DF27, Z274, Z195/6, Z220, Z295). My subclade is also CTS4065+, and L484+ under that. Within my subclade, all but two of the seven surnames have proven, or highly likely, Bristol Channel MDKAs: Hall of Henbury, Gloucestershire; Hulin of St. Briavels, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire; Butler of Frome, Somerset (up a river that flows to the Severn via Bristol, astride the county line); Brown of Inkburrow, Worcestershire (and possibly a Hall relative himself). That county is not on your list, but the Severn flows southward from it. Reno is from Limoges, and Richert from near Gdansk. One member of our cluster is named Dyer, and we haven't yet been able to get any ancestral data (or other communication) from him. Other surnames that may be seen in the project (or via YSearch matching of our many STR off-modals) are known aliases, NPE cousins, adoptees, etc.

All of the tested members of our subclade, so far, are from the USA (Reno, by way of Montreal) -- except Butler, an Australian.

razyn
07-07-2014, 07:44 PM
This link should reveal a somewhat similar conversation, elsewhere, that took place in Feb. and March of 2013:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=636459.0

Stephen Parrish
07-08-2014, 10:17 AM
Razyn, I would like to hear more about your interest in the Bristol Channel. Would that be suitable in this forum or another?

I have reason to believe that my paternal ancestors lived somewhere near the Bristol Channel, perhaps in Herefordshire or in Shropshire (if not one of the English counties that share a border with Welsh counties), before their descendants settled in the seventeenth century in Anne Arundel County, Maryland.

Stephen

razyn
07-08-2014, 04:20 PM
Not to veer too far from what actually interests the originator of this thread (i.e. CTS7822); but I've been meaning to call someone's attention to an interesting publication I discovered while visiting my brother a couple of weeks ago. Got home and ordered my own (used, paperback) copy from Amazon, and it has arrived, so now I can cite it properly. The Counties of Britain: a Tudor Atlas by John Speed. Hardback edition was 1988, paperback 1995; facsimiles of large (two folio pages) colored maps, from a clean copy in the British Library. Its original date was 1616, and much of the content was copied from other atlases published ten or twenty years earlier. Anyway -- for people with early colonial American lines, it's an excellent picture of the England or Wales from which they emigrated. Sketchy coverage also of Ireland, almost none of Scotland. But for the Bristol Channel counties, specifically, it's just great.

Geolocke
12-02-2014, 06:14 PM
Hello again, Long time no post. I suffered a near complete loss of data in a computer crash which also took out my backup drive. When I went to restore my archived backups, I discovered that the Backup routine had been mis-functioning for quite some time. Disappointed does not even begin to address my feelings on the subject. Thankfully, Seymour has been diligent in looking through the member data of the Bristol Channel Project has has allowed me to copy to this forum one of his last posts about our group. We would appreciate and insight you all might have. We have been actively pursuing matches in our individual kits who are not part of this or any other project that we can determine, but at this time only a few have joined. We have one confirmed CTS9219+ in the project and two other confirmed CTS9219+ who have been invited, but who have not yet joined. Copied below is Seymour's latest post to our group and I have a link to the spreadsheet mentioned in his post. I hope you all have a great Holiday season and many wishes for breakthroughs and new discoveries in the coming year. -geo

***Begin Forward***
I have recently generated the attached pdf file which shows my current effort to 'group" related surnames associated with the Bristol Channel Project (Surnames that appear to be related within the last 1000 years or so.).

This is a draft and needs to be expanded especially for the Bennett's but other surnames as well. I started this to show how Ware and High might be related to our group and I expanded it for the Robinson's.

It looks like to me that there are two distinct main groups which I have labeled GroupA and GroupB with a third group (GroupC) being a sub-group of GroupB. Please refer to the light-yellow-green columns which show GroupA DYS results distinct from the DYS results of GroupB (and C) while the light red columns show GroupC DYS results distinct from the DYS results for GroupA (and GroupB).

One exception I used the light-red to high light the DYS464 results for GroupC.

The dark-red cells for columns not light-yellow-green or light-red are the non-modal values for the three groups (combined).

The dark-red cells in the columns with light-yellow-green or light-red indicate non-modal values within each group.

I have colored GroupA as light-yellow, GroupB as light blue, and GroupC as light purple as indicated in the left most column. The colors in the 2nd and 3rd columns are intended to indicate the source of the data for the various individuals shown.

As a note: ySearch shows the Maddock surname to be associated with the Purdue surname which I assume shows up in my DYS37 matches as "Mrs. Purdue". I tried contacting through ySearch but got an error message. If anyone knows how to contact her, I think she should be invited to join the project or at least be aware of how we may be related. If she or anyone else has any questions I would be happy to try to answer them.

I believe we all should encourage all the likely or "known" Robinson's---Bennett's, etc to join the Bristol Channel Project.
***end forward***
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByEiKHkVDZBBOUNLWmdBR3NnWlBoMkx0cEpDT3JPVjJVSGsw/view?usp=sharing

Silesian
12-02-2014, 07:04 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByEiKHkVDZBBOUNLWmdBR3NnWlBoMkx0cEpDT3JPVjJVSGsw/view?usp=sharing
http://www.ysearch.org/
Some potential members to add to your list?
Ysearch:
A9FZK
M2GNG
V92FP
VJCPA
XB64D
KT5TU
S22HC

Kwheaton
12-04-2014, 06:50 PM
A little late to the party but Our R1B-L2 now FGC2501 and FGC2538 is also a cluster of surnames on either side of the Bristol Channel and at least one of the Surnames worked in the mining areas and later went on to work in the iron and then shipbuilding industries. The names are both English and Welsh but are genetically very close WHEATON, HOWELL, MALLENBY, HANCOCK, RAINES. The SW are of WALES was bi-lingual and for thousands of years trade existed back and forth across the channel---and likely brought many different Haplogroups into the area. Not sure what the status of the project is but happy to join if its helpful to anyone.
The WHEATON results are YTM8R
Regards
Kelly Wheaton

Abou
01-01-2015, 06:49 AM
Happy New Year Everyone,

What strikes me about the members of this project is that the majority of them claim a Norman ancestry (cf. the end of my message). The Normans were a heterogeneous group of people, a mix of Viking and Frank Merovingian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian) mostly (cf. Wikipidia). Most probably the majority of the Norman were R-L21, however it seems that a small group within was affiliated to R-CTS7822. Given their higher social status (at least in Britain), they appear to belong to a kind of clergy or nobleman within the Norman people. Interestingly, one of the highest levels of R-L23 in Europe is found in southern Italy where a strong Norman presence is also well documented (see chart below). It will interesting to look at the distribution of R-CTS7822 with Europe and check if it correlates with the Norman presence.





Claimed Norman Ancestry:
The Blairs (FTDNA-164180)
The surname of Blair in Ayrshire is believed to have started with the Barony of Blair. The earliest known recorded reference to the establishment of the Barony of Blair, is by Timothy Pont, in 1608. Pont refers to records of the founding of the Monastery of Kilwinning …, indicated that the Barony of Blair was conferred upon a man of Norman descent named Jean Francois (Anglicized to John Francis), by King William I of Scots who reigned from 1165 to 1214.

The Seymours (FTDNA-108347)
According to Agnes Strickland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_Strickland): Sir John Seymour, of Wolf-hall, Wiltshire, and Margaret Wentworth, daughter of Sir John Wentworth, of Nettlestead, in Suffolk. The Seymours were a family of country gentry who, like most holders of manorial rights, traced their ancestry to a Norman origin.

The Stewarts (FTDNA- 254865)
The ancestral origins of the Stewart family are quite obscure—what is known for certain is that they can trace their ancestry back to Alan FitzFlaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_FitzFlaad), a Breton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people) who came over to Great Britain not long after the Norman conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest). Alan had been the hereditary steward of the Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Dol) of Dol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol-de-Bretagne) in the Duchy of Brittany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brittany); Alan had a good relationship with the ruling Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Dynasty) monarch Henry I of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England) who awarded him with lands in Shropshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shropshire). The FitzAlan family quickly established themselves as a prominent Anglo-Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman) noble house…

The Robbins (FTDNA-74013)
In 1066 a.d. William the I, the Conqueror challenging the monarchie for the crown of Britannia. He invaded Britannia in an effort to over throw the Roman Emipres long hold of the Islands to the North. Riding with and in support of William I, the Conqueror on his invasion was a Norman Gentleman Knight of the French Court by the name of Ro-Bynes.

The Perry (FTDNA-271283)
One source suggests the name is of ancient Norman origin and was found in Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire) in 1066 according to the Doomsday Book.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_%28surname%29#cite_note-4) Their name, however, is a reference to the Old English word perie, meaning pear tree. The family held a seat there on lands granted by Duke William of Normandy, their liege lord, for their distinguished assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066.

The Rose (FTDNA-305697)
The clan Rose was formed in the early 13th century in Nairn, in Kilravock County, Scotland. The name Rose originates from the Norman family ‘de Ros’ who settled in Scotland in the middle of the 13th century. By tradition the Clan Rose traces its origin to deRos, a Norman knight who emigrated to the Moray Firth area early in the thirteenth century along with two other Normans, deBosco and deBisset.

Abou
01-01-2015, 09:44 AM
For an overview of Norman families in Britain, one can read the following book by H.S. King which was published in 1874:

The Norman people and their existing descendants in the British dominions and the United States of America
see https://archive.org/stream/normanpeopleand00unkngoog#page/n5/mode/2up

alan
01-01-2015, 03:16 PM
For an overview of Norman families in Britain, one can read the following book by H.S. King which was published in 1874:

The Norman people and their existing descendants in the British dominions and the United States of America
see https://archive.org/stream/normanpeopleand00unkngoog#page/n5/mode/2up

Wow that books stops just short of calling the Normans the master race. I had a lecturer on the Medieval period who gave the more realistic view and considered them the Medieval worlds best thugs and extortion racket. All the sophisticated governmental machinery was already in place under the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans actually just took it over and ruthlessly replaced almost all English in any secular or church position of land ownership or importance with Norman French and allies within a very short space of time and introduced a far harsher terms for the ordinary farmers etc.

The fact that much of the UK upper classes are still Norman descendants is really more a damning indictment on the glass ceiling at the very top for most people, the fact that the norm of average social upper mobility in a UK generation is shockingly low and the way the upper classes hamstring meritocracy by protecting their advantage through the class system and all sorts of old school tie mechanisms which is why so many people had to go to America etc to get the benefit of their talents.

As an aside, the practice of old boys network/old school tie rather than merit was rampant in British secret services in the cold war and blind selection of old school tie or oxbridge chums with no background checks other than being from the right class into M15 etc allowed the Soviets to totally penetrate them. The current UK prime minster has all sorts of aristocratic links and is a relative of the queen and the chancellor is a hereditary baronet while the high profile Mayor of London is a descendant of one of the King Georges and has ancestry from almost all the royal families of Europe. All three are also in some way related to each other through aristocratic family branches. Its still pretty Medieval in the UK at the very top. Now that is not meritocracy and chance but rather due to the way these kind of links, elite schools like Eton etc have opened doors for centuries. The uppermost strata in UK societies has been protecting its advantage for centuries. The UK is far from a meritocracy in any realistic sense of the word.

Abou
01-01-2015, 04:22 PM
The only relevant information in the book is his alphabetical list of Norman families as documented by the British archive (page 453 and onward). The first part is his belief's statement which was typical of that time. Obviously, now it looks ridiculous. By the way, life under the Norman rule in Sicily was comparatively quite advanced in terms of religious tolerance and cultural diversity (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture).

Joe B
01-03-2015, 05:51 PM
Happy New Year Everyone,

What strikes me about the members of this project is that the majority of them claim a Norman ancestry (cf. the end of my message). The Normans were a heterogeneous group of people, a mix of Viking and Frank Merovingian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian) mostly (cf. Wikipidia). Most probably the majority of the Norman were R-L21, however it seems that a small group within was affiliated to R-CTS7822. Given their higher social status (at least in Britain), they appear to belong to a kind of clergy or nobleman within the Norman people. Interestingly, one of the highest levels of R-L23 in Europe is found in southern Italy where a strong Norman presence is also well documented (see chart below). It will interesting to look at the distribution of R-CTS7822 with Europe and check if it correlates with the Norman presence.





Claimed Norman Ancestry:
The Blairs (FTDNA-164180)
The surname of Blair in Ayrshire is believed to have started with the Barony of Blair. The earliest known recorded reference to the establishment of the Barony of Blair, is by Timothy Pont, in 1608. Pont refers to records of the founding of the Monastery of Kilwinning …, indicated that the Barony of Blair was conferred upon a man of Norman descent named Jean Francois (Anglicized to John Francis), by King William I of Scots who reigned from 1165 to 1214.

The Seymours (FTDNA-108347)
According to Agnes Strickland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_Strickland): Sir John Seymour, of Wolf-hall, Wiltshire, and Margaret Wentworth, daughter of Sir John Wentworth, of Nettlestead, in Suffolk. The Seymours were a family of country gentry who, like most holders of manorial rights, traced their ancestry to a Norman origin.

The Stewarts (FTDNA- 254865)
The ancestral origins of the Stewart family are quite obscure—what is known for certain is that they can trace their ancestry back to Alan FitzFlaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_FitzFlaad), a Breton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people) who came over to Great Britain not long after the Norman conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest). Alan had been the hereditary steward of the Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Dol) of Dol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol-de-Bretagne) in the Duchy of Brittany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brittany); Alan had a good relationship with the ruling Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Dynasty) monarch Henry I of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England) who awarded him with lands in Shropshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shropshire). The FitzAlan family quickly established themselves as a prominent Anglo-Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman) noble house…

The Robbins (FTDNA-74013)
In 1066 a.d. William the I, the Conqueror challenging the monarchie for the crown of Britannia. He invaded Britannia in an effort to over throw the Roman Emipres long hold of the Islands to the North. Riding with and in support of William I, the Conqueror on his invasion was a Norman Gentleman Knight of the French Court by the name of Ro-Bynes.

The Perry (FTDNA-271283)
One source suggests the name is of ancient Norman origin and was found in Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire) in 1066 according to the Doomsday Book.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_%28surname%29#cite_note-4) Their name, however, is a reference to the Old English word perie, meaning pear tree. The family held a seat there on lands granted by Duke William of Normandy, their liege lord, for their distinguished assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066.

The Rose (FTDNA-305697)
The clan Rose was formed in the early 13th century in Nairn, in Kilravock County, Scotland. The name Rose originates from the Norman family ‘de Ros’ who settled in Scotland in the middle of the 13th century. By tradition the Clan Rose traces its origin to deRos, a Norman knight who emigrated to the Moray Firth area early in the thirteenth century along with two other Normans, deBosco and deBisset.
The Norman theory for R1b-L23 in Wesern Europe is certainly one possibility. My opinion, that is about the earliest possibility because of the very low numbers of R1b-Z2103 in the west end of the continent. Another possibility could be Romanichals (Sinti, Manouches, Gitans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal or some other later group. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe&p=43025&viewfull=1#post43025
The Rose (FTDNA-305697) and The Robbins (FTDNA-74013) will likely be R1b-Z2109* as myself (257842) with a German background. Robbins has a Big Y due and Rose will SNP test.

Abou
01-04-2015, 03:55 PM
The Norman theory for R1b-L23 in Wesern Europe is certainly one possibility. My opinion, that is about the earliest possibility because of the very low numbers of R1b-Z2103 in the west end of the continent. Another possibility could be Romanichals (Sinti, Manouches, Gitans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal or some other later group. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe&p=43025&viewfull=1#post43025
The Rose (FTDNA-305697) and The Robbins (FTDNA-74013) will likely be R1b-Z2109* as myself (257842) with a German background. Robbins has a Big Y due and Rose will SNP test.


The Romanichal migration may have added to the spread of R-Z2103 but it's too recent for it to snick out from the collective memory. I always listen to what people are saying about their heritage but I never take it for granted. There are a lot of Norman claimants in Britain, but it's very hard to discern even genetically those from the old inhabitants. In the Bristol project those claimants have some kind of solid arguments: their genetic background is markedly different from the normal genetic make-up you find in Britain. My bet is that the Robbins and the Rose will most probably turn out to be R-CTS7822. I invite you to read the following paper http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue11-1.pdf which was written by someone from Bristol. Things are not as simple as they seem.

rick_r
01-05-2015, 06:18 PM
The Romanichal migration may have added to the spread of R-Z2103 but it's too recent for it to snick out from the collective memory. I always listen to what people are saying about their heritage but I never take it for granted. There are a lot of Norman claimants in Britain, but it's very hard to discern even genetically those from the old inhabitants. In the Bristol project those claimants have some kind of solid arguments: their genetic background is markedly different from the normal genetic make-up you find in Britain. My bet is that the Robbins and the Rose will most probably turn out to be R-CTS7822. I invite you to read the following paper http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue11-1.pdf which was written by someone from Bristol. Things are not as simple as they seem.

I read with interest that file from Oxford. It is a possibility for me, since I believe that the Robins/Robbins line may have been introduced in England via the Romans. Sarmatian cavalry could be a possibility, but really no proof in that exists.

Considering that my Robbins line originated from a single person here in the states, with a different name, (Robinson) I heavily discount any Norman influences, as the Ro-Bynes mentioned. My ancestor Daniel was shipped here after losing at the battle of Worchester in 1651 or so. I doubt seriously that any landed Norman would be shipped to the colonies. So there's that. LOL.

Joe B
01-05-2015, 06:35 PM
The Romanichal migration may have added to the spread of R-Z2103 but it's too recent for it to snick out from the collective memory. I always listen to what people are saying about their heritage but I never take it for granted. There are a lot of Norman claimants in Britain, but it's very hard to discern even genetically those from the old inhabitants. In the Bristol project those claimants have some kind of solid arguments: their genetic background is markedly different from the normal genetic make-up you find in Britain. My bet is that the Robbins and the Rose will most probably turn out to be R-CTS7822. I invite you to read the following paper http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue11-1.pdf which was written by someone from Bristol. Things are not as simple as they seem.
You could be right, Robbins and Rose may turn out to be R1b-CTS7822/Z2110 instead of R1b-CTS1843/Z2109.
The bifurcations around R1b-CTS7822 are complex at the moment. Your testing will help cut that Gordian knot.
Bristol Channel along with Devonshire are interesting areas with a long history with many opportunities for the R1b-Z2103 clades to come ashore. For example, Lundy Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lundy#Piracy) was part of the Republic of Salé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Sal%C3%A9) for a while and used for the slave trade.

Mis
01-05-2015, 07:44 PM
z2103 are Jews, Gypsies, slaves.
* And who else?.

Mis
01-05-2015, 07:50 PM
I'm sorry I forgot about the Poles.

Kwheaton
01-05-2015, 09:17 PM
If you are interested in r-L2 they have roots on both sides of the Channel. The FGC Elite showed a connection perhaps 2-3,000 years with Translvanian Saxons. The truth of the matter is probably that their were many waves of migration from mainland Europe into the Bristol Channel. It had major trading ports so likely loypts of different Y's will surface there.

Kelly

Geolocke
01-12-2015, 04:02 AM
Just checking back in here. It's been quiet over the holidays. My CTS9219 came back Negative. one other CTS9219 test in progress (237225). Our one confirmed CTS9219+ (82745) is now testing CTS11767.

smal
01-12-2015, 04:26 AM
Our one confirmed CTS9219+ (82745) is now testing CTS11767.
He should test BY250, BY251.

Geolocke
01-12-2015, 02:14 PM
Thanks Smal, I'll pass that along. -geo