View Full Version : Raetian Cluster

06-29-2014, 01:31 PM
The recently tested Simonetti (L2+ FGC10543+) belongs to a cluster that is likely prevalent in North Eastern Italy, but more so in the Alps bordering Austria and less so in the Venetian Plains. The modal values for what I am calling the "Raetian Cluster" are as follows:

DYS442 = 11 (L2 modal = 12)
DYS385a >= 12 (L2 modal = 11)
DYS458 <= 16 (L2 modal = 17)
DYS449 = 27 (L2 modal = 29)

Here are the kits that are likely part of the FGC10543 Raetian Cluster, with Simonetti already confirmed:

B3593, Simeone Simonetti de Simon ~1655, Zoppé di Cadoré, Belluno, Veneto, Italy
E8413, Paolo Bonfant b. 1509 Cembra, Trentino, Italy
N113573, Nicolas Gosselin (Gausselin) b. ~1593, Combray, France
111292, Johann Jacob Kuhn b.~1675, Zurich, Switzerland
E11278, Josef Häfliger, Luzern, Switzerland
85656, Stephen Reman, m.1792, North Carolina, USA
200132, Emil Pommier b.1812, Unknown, France
E4121, A. Plaschg, Kapfenstein, Austria (Bad Waltersdorf, Austria in YSearch)
YSearch, Rouschmann Joho, b.~1375, Schinznach, Aargau, Switzerland
YSearch, Gallus Hoesslin, b.~1500, Lindau, Germany
YSearch, Santo Rossi, b.1730, Orgiano, Vicenza, Italy
YSearch, Gasparella, Veneto, Italy

Taken individually, these values are not indicative of FGC10543+ as they can be found across any haplogroup, so they are useful to predict FGC10543 only within L2. The only value that my kit shares with the others is DYS442=11, so it forms an older separation. Samples with off-modal DYS385a/DYS458 probably form another subclade of FGC10543. Those with DYS449=27 likely form an additional subclade below the DYS385a/DYS458 cluster. L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) as per Coia et al (2013), and of further interest is that L2+ DYS385a >= 12 makes up a very large percentage of all males in the following populations:

25.5% Fassa Valley
20.5% Badia Valley
19.5% Fiemme Valley

If the early branching of L2 falls within the Bell Beaker time period, then the FGC10543 split may have occurred with the Polada Culture. The off-modal values of the samples that form the Raetian Culture seem to have developed much later and may have occurred during the Laugen-Melaun Culture (1350/1250 BC) which was an Urnfield Culture that stretched from NE Switzerland to NE Italy. The culture does not follow the northern Alps during the Hallstatt period and instead comes under Etruscan influence during the 8th century BC. During the 6th century BC, the focus once again shifts north towards the Inn Valley with the formation of the Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture which lasts until the conquering of Raetia by Augustus in the 1st century BC.

Given all of this, I have chosen to retire my trusty Ligurian battle helmet avatar for that of a Fritzens-Sanzeno Bronze Age votive of the 6th century BC. ;)

06-29-2014, 07:04 PM

did you get any markers form this paper

or this below which has the mtdna and ydna spreadsheets


a break down of one area from my first link is
142 samples of three Ladiner valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena)

10.5% K [15 samples, 10 are T ydna and 5 are L ydna]

0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples]
8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples]
0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples]
28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples]
10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples]
4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples]

1.4% R1a [2 samples]

0.7% I-M170 [1 samples]
4.9% I1-M253 [7samples]
0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples]

5.6% G-M201 [8 samples]

0.7% E-M35 [1 samples]
2.8% E-V13 [4 samples]

4.9% J1-M267 [7samples]
0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples]
10.5% J2a [15 samples]
3.5% J2b [5 samples]

The 28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;

Edit: oops , you know about my post #1

06-29-2014, 11:32 PM
Here are distribution maps of the Laugen-Melaun and Fritzens-Sanzeno Cultures...