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BMG
07-01-2018, 02:34 AM
here's my GEDmatch results
South Indian 49.6
Baloch 36.6
Caucasian 5.1
SW Asian 2.8
NE Euro 1.6
SE Asian 1%

I'm Marthomite from Pathanamthitta district, kerala, India
What is your Ydna and mtdna ? I am also marthomite .

traject
08-07-2018, 12:00 PM
Yep autosomal is representative of the individuals ancestry. Both y-dna and mtdna is only one individual from thousands and as such are not representative beyond the ancestry of those chromosomes themselves.

However these y and mtdna markers do leave some information/clues about past migrations, for example elevated levels of R1a in Brahmins linking them to Iron-Age Indo-Aryan migration.

But the Knanaya seem to be South Asian in both y-dna and mtdna, though as you've shown their autosomal ancestry is quite different to the surrounding communities.

The best lead based on what ive seen here is either Q-related (Jewish subclade) paternal founders or matrilineal admixture into the Syrian Christian community (need to know mtdna % split to be sure).

Harappa cannot tell you the source of ancestry, it only labels components based on its frequency in modern test populations. For example 'Caucasian' markers are the most common in the world today in the reference Caucasus populations Zack Ajmal has used in his calculator. 'South India' means that in the world, those alleles/markers are most common in todays populations from 'South India'. However we can infer on how closely populations are related to each other based on differences in results.

Due to the Harappa scores you posted, the Knanaya are different to their surrounding populations, suggesting recent West Asian ancestry. The Caucasus component is high in West Asia. SW Asian or E African however is not that high in the Knanaya so the source is probably not Gulf-like, like in Hyderabadi Muslims of Yemeni descent. Where the ancestry came from we cannot say based on moderns calculators, we can only guess. My best bet would be deep testing the y-Q or non-M Mtdna related haplogroups to see which world population shares these specific markers of descent with the Knanaya.

Is there a more comprehensive Mtdna proportion figure for the Knanaya?

@bmoney, I've been doing a bit of digging recently on Gedmatch checking the Harrapan scores of closest relatives and, just as a heads up, I don't think my family necessarily represents an average sample of a Syrian Christian. On my father's side, Caucasian scores of relatives are nearly consistently 7-8% (an odd 5% and 11% there) while my mother's side tends to be 6-7% with 2 at 3-4% (all closest relatives having at least 39 cM in common with 12+ cM as largest individual segment). Most notably, almost all oracles come closest to Kerala Christian with the few exceptions to Singapore-Indian-B. My family, on the other hand, seems to have ~4-5% Caucasian (I'm the lowest at 4%) so I suspect that nMonte mixes of other Syrian Christians might be a bit different.

bmoney
08-07-2018, 01:37 PM
@bmoney, I've been doing a bit of digging recently on Gedmatch checking the Harrapan scores of closest relatives and, just as a heads up, I don't think my family necessarily represents an average sample of a Syrian Christian. On my father's side, Caucasian scores of relatives are nearly consistently 7-8% (an odd 5% and 11% there) while my mother's side tends to be 6-7% with 2 at 3-4% (all closest relatives having at least 39 cM in common with 12+ cM as largest individual segment). Most notably, almost all oracles come closest to Kerala Christian with the few exceptions to Singapore-Indian-B. My family, on the other hand, seems to have ~4-5% Caucasian (I'm the lowest at 4%) so I suspect that nMonte mixes of other Syrian Christians might be a bit different.

Yeah definitely, I think your results come oddly close to mine in nmonte and I expect BMGs Dad to cluster away from Syrian Christians scores as well due to his HAP NE Euro scores.

As someone posted before, its likely many communities converted into the community in the South Kerala region where Syrian Christians were a prestigious caste

BMG
08-08-2018, 03:17 PM
@bmoney, I've been doing a bit of digging recently on Gedmatch checking the Harrapan scores of closest relatives and, just as a heads up, I don't think my family necessarily represents an average sample of a Syrian Christian. On my father's side, Caucasian scores of relatives are nearly consistently 7-8% (an odd 5% and 11% there) while my mother's side tends to be 6-7% with 2 at 3-4% (all closest relatives having at least 39 cM in common with 12+ cM as largest individual segment). Most notably, almost all oracles come closest to Kerala Christian with the few exceptions to Singapore-Indian-B. My family, on the other hand, seems to have ~4-5% Caucasian (I'm the lowest at 4%) so I suspect that nMonte mixes of other Syrian Christians might be a bit different.
One thing I have noticed in gedmatch is that most of the Syrian Christians are matches to each other . I almost had around 40 kits of Syrian Christians as top matches . On the other hand nairs are not so close to each other . Many don't even have one single Nair kit in their one to many matches .
Partly it may be due higher level of testing among us and partly it may be due to fact that syrian Christian population have increased exponentially during the colonial times . Our population in 16th century might have been very low as we know there were only around 116 churches during that time .

bmoney
08-08-2018, 03:36 PM
One thing I have noticed in gedmatch is that most of the Syrian Christians are matches to each other . I almost had around 40 kits of Syrian Christians as top matches . On the other hand nairs are not so close to each other . Many don't even have one single Nair kit in their one to many matches .
Partly it may be due higher level of testing among us and partly it may be due to fact that syrian Christian population have increased exponentially during the colonial times . Our population in 16th century might have been very low as we know there were only around 116 churches during that time .

I agree, some part of it is due a lower level of testing as more Syrian Christians are in the West than Nairs.

My 23andme relatives are fine (though no Syrian Christians but I do get Muslims, Karnatakans and Tam Brams) but Gedmatch matches only have one Syrian Christian far down the list (>50) and one identifiable Nair as the closest match.

The rest are a few unidentified Hindus who all score the same oracle on HAP Rajasthani 1st Tam Brahmin 2nd, 2 Hindus who score 1Maharashtrian 2Karnataka Brahmin on oracles, and the rest are Europeans/White Americans

BMG
08-08-2018, 06:16 PM
I agree, some part of it is due a lower level of testing as more Syrian Christians are in the West than Nairs.

Another reason for more testing among Syrian Christians is that our historic origins are quite ambiguous . There were many people who were actually thinking we had quite high middle eastern ancestry and a few were actually disappointed when they found they are regular south Indians . This ambiguity combined with curiosity have resulted in more people getting tested .

One of my relatives who is actually the one who introduced me to commercial testing had taken Geno 2.0 test . He always told his family is descended from a merchant from Persia who came via ship to Kerala in 17th century . His Geno 2.0 test showed his Ydna as H-M52 and the map showed his ancestors coming from Africa via middle East to south Asia which he thought is proof for his story . Also the pathetic autosomal results showed 14% Mediterranean . When he told his story to me I tried to learn through internet about haplogroups and other things and came to to know H1a is actually more common in India . When I told him about that he said I didn't understand things correctly and national geographic results cannot be wrong and blah blah . Anyway because of him I ended up ordering a Geno 2.0 kit for me and my maternal uncle to know the Ydna haplogroups .

Back then in 2014 when I ordered ftdna family finder there were only 2 matches for me . Now there are almost 80 matches for me there . For the 23andme kits the matches would be even more but their criteria seem to be more relaxed . The only south Indian community who have tested more than us is tambrahms and considering India as a whole we will be behind Punjabi jatts also .

Thomas48
08-11-2018, 06:54 PM
Another reason for more testing among Syrian Christians is that our historic origins are quite ambiguous . There were many people who were actually thinking we had quite high middle eastern ancestry and a few were actually disappointed when they found they are regular south Indians . This ambiguity combined with curiosity have resulted in more people getting tested .

One of my relatives who is actually the one who introduced me to commercial testing had taken Geno 2.0 test . He always told his family is descended from a merchant from Persia who came via ship to Kerala in 17th century . His Geno 2.0 test showed his Ydna as H-M52 and the map showed his ancestors coming from Africa via middle East to south Asia which he thought is proof for his story . Also the pathetic autosomal results showed 14% Mediterranean . When he told his story to me I tried to learn through internet about haplogroups and other things and came to to know H1a is actually more common in India . When I told him about that he said I didn't understand things correctly and national geographic results cannot be wrong and blah blah . Anyway because of him I ended up ordering a Geno 2.0 kit for me and my maternal uncle to know the Ydna haplogroups .

Back then in 2014 when I ordered ftdna family finder there were only 2 matches for me . Now there are almost 80 matches for me there . For the 23andme kits the matches would be even more but their criteria seem to be more relaxed . The only south Indian community who have tested more than us is tambrahms and considering India as a whole we will be behind Punjabi jatts also .

In my opinion the origins of the Syrian Christians of Kerala is very simple. The folk history states something along the lines of St. Thomas arrived in India in 52 A.D and converted Brahmans (Brahmans did not exist in Kerala during this time) and Jews and we are all the descendants of said people. In my opinion however St. Thomas Christians have two origins, regular Middle Eastern trade migrations to India and those individuals that these Syrian Christians converted/married. The first of said migrations are simply Middle Eastern traders that arrived in Kerala to do trade as early as the 1st century, later you have the Knanaya who arrive as an organized group likely for trade as well under Thomas of Cana, and finally you have Mar Sapor and Mar Prodth two Syrian clergymen who arrive in the 9th century and procure the Tharisa Copper Plate grant. The copper plate grant gained the Christians of the Kollam region many economic and social privileges and rights. After this point it is noted in historical sources that large amounts of Middle Eastern Christian merchants flooded into Kerala to take part in the spice trade and profit from the newly gained rights of the Christians. As for population, I believe one of the Portuguese sources state that in the 1500-1600's the St. Thomas Christians numbered somewhere in the 30 or 40 thousands and the Knanaya were 5 thousand in number. All the early Portuguese sources I can find state that the St. Thomas Christians daily converted Hindus to the faith. Later sources during the British period also state the same. In my opinion this perfectly matches with my theory that the St. Thomas Christians have two origins, as those who descended from Middle Eastern merchants and those they converted/integrated with. As far as I can see in autosomal dna on FT DNA, many St. Thomas Christians have varying Middle Eastern origins, some as low as 2% and two even as high as 12%.

One of the Tharisa Plates: (Another plate has signatures in Kufic, Pahlavi, and Hebrew from numerous ethno-religious merchant guilds in Kerala)
25205

parasar
08-11-2018, 08:06 PM
In my opinion the origins of the Syrian Christians of Kerala is very simple. The folk history states something along the lines of St. Thomas arrived in India in 52 A.D and converted Brahmans (Brahmans did not exist in Kerala during this time) and Jews and we are all the descendants of said people ...

Brahmans did not exist in Kerala in 52 AD?

Piyadasi: "There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found"
and Piyadasi definitely knew of Kerala: "the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Satiyaputras, the Keralaputras, as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochos rules, and among the kings who are neighbors of Antiochos,[3] everywhere has Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, made provision for two types of medical treatment: medical treatment for humans and medical treatment for animals."

bmoney
08-12-2018, 01:51 AM
Brahmans did not exist in Kerala in 52 AD?

Piyadasi: "There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found"
and Piyadasi definitely knew of Kerala: "the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Satiyaputras, the Keralaputras, as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochos rules, and among the kings who are neighbors of Antiochos,[3] everywhere has Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, made provision for two types of medical treatment: medical treatment for humans and medical treatment for animals."

Nambudiris did not exist in Kerala at 52AD as that contradicts their own records.

Either this was a confusion or this was referring to a separate community of Brahmins who no longer exist in Kerala which is unlikely as there are no records of this

The historicity of the Grama-affiliation of the Namboothiris, therefore, cannot be doubted. It is possible that these settlements came up between the third and ninth centuries of the Christian era, i.e., the close of the early historical period in the history of South India, described by historians as the "Sangam Age", and establishment of the Chera kingdom of Mahodayapuram. There is a solitary reference to the northernmost, and thus possibly the oldest, of these settlements, namely Chellur or Perumchellur or Taliparamba, in the Tamil "Sangam" literature with a Vedic sacrificial background and the Parasurama tradition; but the rest of them are clearly products of a later period. It is also clear that all these had been not only established but also sufficiently prosperous by the beginning of the ninth century, when the Chera kingdom was ruling over Kerala from Mahodayapuram.

Taliparamba, close to where my maternal grandmothers family are from, never had Syrian Christians to convert and likely the Brahmins moved on as they barely exist in Northern Kerala today.

They mainly moved to Central Kerala where there were richer kings and more patronage to be gained i suppose, and as the quote states that was around the 8-9th Century

BMG
08-15-2018, 01:02 AM
My maternal grandmother's harappa results .She also turn out to be like paternal grandparents with low Caucasian and a bit of ne euro. Not surprising since they all hail from nearby places . So maternal grandfather should be the odd one here .

S-Indian 48.69%
Baloch 37.24%
Caucasian 3.72%
NE-Euro 2.96%
SE-Asian 0.66%
Siberian 1.61%
NE-Asian 1.16%
Papuan 1.23%
American 0.38%
Meditteranean 0.91%
SW-Asian 1.44%

bmoney
08-15-2018, 01:25 AM
My maternal grandmother's harappa results .She also turn out to be like paternal grandparents with low Caucasian and a bit of ne euro. Not surprising since they all hail from nearby places . So maternal grandfather should be the odd one here .

S-Indian 48.69%
Baloch 37.24%
Caucasian 3.72%
NE-Euro 2.96%
SE-Asian 0.66%
Siberian 1.61%
NE-Asian 1.16%
Papuan 1.23%
American 0.38%
Meditteranean 0.91%
SW-Asian 1.44%

Good shes getting NE Asian too which i thought was odd in a Malayali.

Her NE Euro to Caucasian ratio suggests again for lack of a better term, Nair ancestry

bmoney
08-15-2018, 01:29 AM
Closest ancients for Traject and I. Near 6 distance suggests we have a significant amount of non-Indo-Aryan ancestry too which is fairly obvious

131 Custom:AGUser_traject Saidu_Sharif_IA I6888 6.085
139 Custom:AGUser_traject Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 S8728.E1.L1 6.216

124 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Saidu_Sharif_IA I6888 5.801
170 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 S8728.E1.L1 6.924

Closest fit for the Saidu Sharif sample:

1 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Katelai_IA I5399 2.926
2 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Barikot_IA I6547 3.122
3 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA Average 3.234
4 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8246 3.414
5 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6551 3.745
6 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA Average 3.761
7 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8219 3.764
8 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Saidu_Sharif_IA S7717.E1.L1 4.021
9 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Punjabi_Lahore HG02491 4.285
10 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6550 4.328
11 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6549 4.429
12 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat Average 4.558
13 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Iyer IR-1-4 4.571
14 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Custom AGUser_zaid 4.639
15 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Iyer IR-1-15 4.71
16 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-9 4.71
17 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-14 4.836
18 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8245 4.878
19 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-21 4.902
20 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Khatri K-10 4.938

Closest fit for the SISBA3 sample:

1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 Average 0
2 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas Average 3.24
3 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Piramalai PK6415 3.451
4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-50 3.489
5 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Yadava S_Yadava-2 3.533
6 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas VELZ267 3.584
7 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-46 3.672
8 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20871 3.704
9 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Piramalai Average 3.724
10 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-49 3.828
11 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20896 3.837
12 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Kurumba KUR3 3.844
13 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Kurumba Average 3.844
14 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Dusadh A394 3.906
15 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA21089 3.965
16 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o Average 3.981
17 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o S7722.E1.L1 3.981
18 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas VELZ264 4.016
19 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20861 4.034
20 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Maratha MT-23 4.084

Closest moderns for Traject (hes North-shifted compared to the average Syrian Christian)

1 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-13 2.389
2 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer Average 2.498
3 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-2 2.554
4 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-18 2.653
5 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.656
6 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati Average 2.667
7 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-14 2.677
8 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20876 2.682
9 Custom:AGUser_traject Punjabi_Lahore Average 2.706
10 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-5 2.76
11 Custom:AGUser_traject Kshatriya 195 2.764
12 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-19 2.775
13 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.823
14 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-15 2.846
15 Custom:AGUser_traject Tharu D260 2.859
16 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20869 2.919
17 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB003 3.001
18 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20899 3.037
19 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20911 3.041
20 Custom:AGUser_traject Custom AGUser_censored 3.061

Closest moderns for me:

1 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-18 2.226
2 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer Average 2.277
3 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-5 2.399
4 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-4 2.652
5 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.689
6 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.712
7 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Custom AGUser_soulblighter_vathula 2.756
8 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-11 2.792
9 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-19 2.875
10 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-15 2.897
11 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-21 2.912
12 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-12 2.943
13 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-3 2.962
14 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-13 2.98
15 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-9 3.038
16 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Kshatriya Average 3.096
17 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-1 3.099
18 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Punjabi_Lahore HG02601 3.12
19 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Gujarati NA20911 3.163

BMG
08-15-2018, 07:38 AM
Good shes getting NE Asian too which i thought was odd in a Malayali.

Her NE Euro to Caucasian ratio suggests again for lack of a better term, Nair ancestry
I am beginning to think that is more of a common ancestry in predominantly farming families among Syrian Christians rather than Nair ancestry unless if most of these farmers we're descendants of Nair converts . Unlike traditionally merchant families they had little ties with foreign merchants hence little to no foreign input . My maternal grandfather's family were traditionally traders who traded coconut oil and copra for many generations . I guess him to be having more west asian than the rest of the family . I will have to test either my mother or uncle to know it .

BMG
08-15-2018, 07:55 AM
Closest ancients for Traject and I. Near 6 distance suggests we have a significant amount of non-Indo-Aryan ancestry too which is fairly obvious

131 Custom:AGUser_traject Saidu_Sharif_IA I6888 6.085
139 Custom:AGUser_traject Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 S8728.E1.L1 6.216

124 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Saidu_Sharif_IA I6888 5.801
170 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 S8728.E1.L1 6.924

Closest fit for the Saidu Sharif sample:

1 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Katelai_IA I5399 2.926
2 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Barikot_IA I6547 3.122
3 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA Average 3.234
4 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8246 3.414
5 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6551 3.745
6 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA Average 3.761
7 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8219 3.764
8 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Saidu_Sharif_IA S7717.E1.L1 4.021
9 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Punjabi_Lahore HG02491 4.285
10 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6550 4.328
11 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Butkara_IA I6549 4.429
12 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat Average 4.558
13 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Iyer IR-1-4 4.571
14 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Custom AGUser_zaid 4.639
15 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Iyer IR-1-15 4.71
16 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-9 4.71
17 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-14 4.836
18 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Aligrama_IA I8245 4.878
19 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-21 4.902
20 Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6888 Khatri K-10 4.938

Closest fit for the SISBA3 sample:

1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 Average 0
2 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas Average 3.24
3 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Piramalai PK6415 3.451
4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-50 3.489
5 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Yadava S_Yadava-2 3.533
6 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas VELZ267 3.584
7 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-46 3.672
8 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20871 3.704
9 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Piramalai Average 3.724
10 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Pallan PL1-49 3.828
11 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20896 3.837
12 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Kurumba KUR3 3.844
13 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Kurumba Average 3.844
14 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Dusadh A394 3.906
15 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA21089 3.965
16 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o Average 3.981
17 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o S7722.E1.L1 3.981
18 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Velamas VELZ264 4.016
19 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Gujarati NA20861 4.034
20 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 Maratha MT-23 4.084

Closest moderns for Traject (hes North-shifted compared to the average Syrian Christian)

1 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-13 2.389
2 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer Average 2.498
3 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-2 2.554
4 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-18 2.653
5 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.656
6 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati Average 2.667
7 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-14 2.677
8 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20876 2.682
9 Custom:AGUser_traject Punjabi_Lahore Average 2.706
10 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-5 2.76
11 Custom:AGUser_traject Kshatriya 195 2.764
12 Custom:AGUser_traject Iyer IR-1-19 2.775
13 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.823
14 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-15 2.846
15 Custom:AGUser_traject Tharu D260 2.859
16 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20869 2.919
17 Custom:AGUser_traject Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB003 3.001
18 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20899 3.037
19 Custom:AGUser_traject Gujarati NA20911 3.041
20 Custom:AGUser_traject Custom AGUser_censored 3.061

Closest moderns for me:

1 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-18 2.226
2 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer Average 2.277
3 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-5 2.399
4 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-4 2.652
5 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.689
6 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.712
7 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Custom AGUser_soulblighter_vathula 2.756
8 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-11 2.792
9 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-19 2.875
10 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-15 2.897
11 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-21 2.912
12 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-12 2.943
13 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-3 2.962
14 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-13 2.98
15 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-9 3.038
16 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Kshatriya Average 3.096
17 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Iyer IR-1-1 3.099
18 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Punjabi_Lahore HG02601 3.12
19 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Gujarati NA20911 3.163

What does traject's G25 show compared to other south Indians. I think he has similar harappadna results to me . In razib's run though we have somewhat different results .He is 80% Tamil 17% Iranian and 2% Lithuanian while I am 85% Tamil 7% Iranian and 7% Lithuanian .

I am not able to do G25 since Paypal is rejecting my credit card . I don't know why since I did use the same card in Paypal to do transactions earlier .

bmoney
08-15-2018, 08:15 AM
What does traject's G25 show compared to other south Indians. I think he has similar harappadna results to me . In razib's run though we have somewhat different results .He is 80% Tamil 17% Iranian and 2% Lithuanian while I am 85% Tamil 7% Iranian and 7% Lithuanian .

I am not able to do G25 since Paypal is rejecting my credit card . I don't know why since I did use the same card in Paypal to do transactions earlier .

I strongly recommend doing G25. It will be interesting seeing your results for sure

You can transfer money to paypal via bank transfer and then transfer to eurogenes

Check the G25 thread, I always run Traject in my nmonte group runs.

He gets high Swat IA ancestry, more than me in some combos but in general he prefers SS outlier whereas I prefer SIS BA3. SS outlier has more Siberian and AASI and SISBA3 has more Iran_N

We're probably among the most North Shifted South Indian samples among AG users so far as you can tell we cluster around Iyers which cannot be true ancestrally.

Neither of us need South Indian elite groups like Velama in our genome which I thought was interesting. We do need low-caste like Maratha however.

Paniya is rejected when presented with Maratha.

its probably due to a lot of mid-caste Mallus genesis as Indo-Aryan low/mid castes or IA migrants mixing with the local pre-Mallu-Tamil elite

For Tamil Brahmins its a completely a different scenario of migrating North Indian Brahmins mixing with local elites and lower castes perhaps

Heres my latest run.

25284

bmoney
08-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Two runs using a simple Iyer, Gujarati and Paniya model and another using Gujarati Brahmin, Gujarati and Paniya.

Surprisingly the Gujarat Brahmin version had a slightly better average fit 1.72 vs 1.74 using Iyer.

25295

vishankar
08-17-2018, 06:18 PM
hi,
in the ftdna nair project there are 2 individuals with haplogroup Q- L-56 amd M-346,an eupedia earch on this haplogroup suggests the origin in russia,kazakhstan,armenia,hungary...could this be of scythic/hunnic origin...?...your expert comments please

bmoney
08-18-2018, 02:11 AM
hi,
in the ftdna nair project there are 2 individuals with haplogroup Q- L-56 amd M-346,an eupedia earch on this haplogroup suggests the origin in russia,kazakhstan,armenia,hungary...could this be of scythic/hunnic origin...?...your expert comments please

The only haplogroup we can unambiguously link to Kushans and Scythians is north Indian L1a2 (L-M357)

Otherwise the Qs and R1as could be either Scythian (less likely) or general Indo-Aryan (more likely) in Nairs.

I suggest you post in the Q thread which has more knowledgable users, I think @Afshar could help you

BMG what are your thoughts

bmoney
08-18-2018, 05:15 AM
For those affected by floods, hope your families are ok

vishankar
08-21-2018, 06:19 PM
Is there any other forum where kerala ancestry by way of ancestral populations are discussed or is this it?

BMG
08-22-2018, 03:34 AM
The only haplogroup we can unambiguously link to Kushans and Scythians is north Indian L1a2 (L-M357)

Otherwise the Qs and R1as could be either Scythian (less likely) or general Indo-Aryan (more likely) in Nairs.

I suggest you post in the Q thread which has more knowledgable users, I think @Afshar could help you

BMG what are your thoughts

I don't think we can say anything without knowing the exact subclades . In general Q-M346 in India has nothing to do with scythians or Huns .
Why would you link L-M357 with Kushans . Already there are lot of L-M357 among SPGT samples

bmoney
08-22-2018, 03:48 AM
I don't think we can say anything without knowing the exact subclades . In general Q-M346 in India has nothing to do with scythians or Huns .
Why would you link L-M357 with Kushans . Already there are lot of L-M357 among SPGT samples

Sorry I meant specifically L-M357 associated with Jatts

Yes its also a Swat Indo-Aryan lineage and that is likely what we find in the South

BMG
08-22-2018, 05:55 AM
Sorry I meant specifically L-M357 associated with Jatts

Yes its also a Swat Indo-Aryan lineage and that is likely what we find in the South

My logic suggests jatt L1a2 to be locally assimilated . Sapporo's and two other Punjabi terminal snps seems to confirm the same

bmoney
08-22-2018, 06:36 AM
My logic suggests jatt L1a2 to be locally assimilated . Sapporo's and two other Punjabi terminal snps seems to confirm the same

Interesting, the Mahal paper suggests the Pamir Knot as the origin.

Is there issues with this hypothesis?

vishankar
08-23-2018, 05:01 PM
Well actually in the Mahal paper,in the same paragraph on Haplogroup L ,it is mentioned that "Genetic studies indicate that this
may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of
Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci,
2005; Sengupta et al., 2006)."....so its anyones guess whether the possessors of this Haplogroup migrated to the Pamirs or vice versa descended to the indus valley.... :)

bmoney
08-24-2018, 12:20 AM
Well actually in the Mahal paper,in the same paragraph on Haplogroup L ,it is mentioned that "Genetic studies indicate that this
may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of
Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci,
2005; Sengupta et al., 2006)."....so its anyones guess whether the possessors of this Haplogroup migrated to the Pamirs or vice versa descended to the indus valley.... :)

yep thanks for correcting me, this is the full paragraph.

This is the largest haplogroup in the Jat sample population. It is present in the Indian population at an overall frequency of about 7–15% (Basu et al., 2003; Cordaux et al., 2004). Genetic studies suggest that this may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci, 2005; Sengupta et al., 2006). It has a frequency of about 28% in western Pakistan and Baluchistan, from where the agricultural creators of this civilization emerged (Qamar et al., 2002). The origins of this haplogroup can be traced to the rugged and mountainous Pamir Knot region in Tajikistan (Wells, 2007).

Btw Vishankar have you got a kit?

I'm still baffled by how I turned our L when most of my 23andme relatives are R1a, with a bit of Q J2 and H far behind. I have 1 L in my top 30 men so the lineage sneaked into our genepool. I have slightly more H1a than L actually.

Syrian Christians seem to have peak L among Kerala populations though, and it seems to be high in Konkanis and Marathis as well

Iyers and Saurashtrans from Tamil Nadu have it at reasonable levels too

vishankar
08-24-2018, 06:17 AM
Hi...i just ordered a ftdna kit ( y and autosomal)- there is a 20% off....yet again i have some doubts....
1) is the nair R1a( subclade) the same as the ezhava/thiyya?....which community posseses the largest amount of R1a?....
also in the mahal paper , it is shown the nair has 10 different ancestral paternal lines!... David Mahal 's paper has 47 nairs.113 ezhavas, but no frequency of each haplogroup in the communities, would you happen to have a clue bmoney and BMG?

bmoney
08-24-2018, 06:25 AM
Hi...i just ordered a ftdna kit ( y and autosomal)- there is a 20% off....yet again i have some doubts....
1) is the nair R1a( subclade) the same as the ezhava/thiyya?....which community posseses the largest amount of R1a?....
also in the mahal paper , it is shown the nair has 10 different ancestral paternal lines!... David Mahal 's paper has 47 nairs.113 ezhavas, but no frequency of each haplogroup in the communities, would you happen to have a clue bmoney and BMG?

No reason to think Nair R1a and Ezhava R1a are different, its possible that they are linked to different migrations though with Ezhavas having more Buddhist/Jain related R1a and Nairs with post-second Chera Brahmin related R1a

Yes Nairs have a lot of y-dna lineages. Decent amount of Q too that Syrian Christians also score.

J2, H1a, I also have a C in my relatives list but R1a is clearly dominant.

R2 is there as well, but not much in my relatives for some reason

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

I would guess that R1a peaks in Nambudiris, and then Nairs and then Ezhava/Thiyyas

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/kerala/default.aspx?section=yresults

vishankar
08-24-2018, 07:27 AM
thanks....regional ancestry breakdown however requires autosomal data,from your posts I presume that nairs have more north east european and mediterranean ancestry compared to other kerala groups, right?....your thoughts, and sorry for taking up your time....!

Thomas48
08-24-2018, 10:05 PM
I thought I'd share three more Knanaya samples I collected: (Removed All Null Factors)

Knanaya #23
Population
S-Indian 44.75
Baloch 35.36
Caucasian 10.43
NE-Euro 0.96
SE-Asian 2.21
Siberian 1.09
NE-Asian 0.06
Papuan 0.89
Beringian 0.52
SW-Asian 3.72

Knanaya #24

Population
S-Indian 43.85
Baloch 33.48
Caucasian 12.83
NE-Euro 0.96
SE-Asian 1.75
NE-Asian 1.67
Papuan 1.28
Beringian 0.47
SW-Asian 3.68

Knanaya #25

Population
S-Indian 44.25
Baloch 35.07
Caucasian 9.40
NE-Euro 2.59
SE-Asian 0.36
NE-Asian 1.72
Papuan 0.40
American 0.35
Beringian 1.72
SW-Asian 3.74
E-African 0.07
Pygmy 0.32

bmoney
08-25-2018, 12:45 AM
thanks....regional ancestry breakdown however requires autosomal data,from your posts I presume that nairs have more north east european and mediterranean ancestry compared to other kerala groups, right?....your thoughts, and sorry for taking up your time....!

Yeah more steppe on average i'd say which makes them artificially resemble Tamil Brahmins.

Not sure if this is as per migration as per keralolpathi or via mixing with Brahmins (Nairs 15-20% of Kerala population vs Brahmin <1%)

And again we're probably not talking about the assortment of assimilated Nair castes but rather the Nair elite here

bmoney
08-25-2018, 12:49 AM
I thought I'd share three more Knanaya samples I collected: (Removed All Null Factors)

Knanaya #23
Population
S-Indian 44.75
Baloch 35.36
Caucasian 10.43
NE-Euro 0.96
SE-Asian 2.21
Siberian 1.09
NE-Asian 0.06
Papuan 0.89
Beringian 0.52
SW-Asian 3.72

Knanaya #24

Population
S-Indian 43.85
Baloch 33.48
Caucasian 12.83
NE-Euro 0.96
SE-Asian 1.75
NE-Asian 1.67
Papuan 1.28
Beringian 0.47
SW-Asian 3.68

Knanaya #25

Population
S-Indian 44.25
Baloch 35.07
Caucasian 9.40
NE-Euro 2.59
SE-Asian 0.36
NE-Asian 1.72
Papuan 0.40
American 0.35
Beringian 1.72
SW-Asian 3.74
E-African 0.07
Pygmy 0.32

High NE Asian + SE Asian, something ive just noticed

Relatively high Caucasian and SW Asian, 10+ Caucasian is like Kashmiri level

You won't see anything near that in the entire South of India and the Gangetic plains, so a clear sign of admixture.

Reference pops with 10-12% Caucasian:


ukranian yunusbayev 20 1% 6% 12%
kashmiri-pandit reich 5 32% 39% 12%
pushtikar-brahmin harappa 1 31% 36% 12%
bhatia harappa 2 25% 46% 12%
punjabi-jatt-muslim harappa 5 30% 39% 12%
brahui hgdp 25 12% 58% 12%
burusho hgdp 25 23% 41% 12%
rajasthani-jatt harappa 2 25% 35% 11%
up-muslim harappa 9 34% 33% 11%
spaniard behar 12 0% 7% 11%
tygray pagani 21 0% 0% 11%
libya henn2012 17 0% 1% 11%
punjabi harappa 13 33% 39% 11%
kashmiri-pahari harappa 3 33% 40% 10%
cochin-jew behar 4 44% 31% 10%
punjabi-jatt-sikh harappa 15 28% 39% 10%
punjabi-brahmin harappa 3 34% 39% 10%
spaniard 1000genomes 98 1% 6% 10%
amhara pagani 25 0% 0% 10%
belorussian behar 9 1% 5% 10%
punjabi-arain xing 25 31% 44% 10%
sindhi hgdp 24 29% 46% 10%
french hgdp 28 0% 9% 10%

Cochin Jew score - remarkably similar, except for the Mediterranean component



S Indian 44%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 1%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 0%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 0%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 5%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%

BMG
08-25-2018, 08:10 AM
High NE Asian + SE Asian, something ive just noticed

Relatively high Caucasian and SW Asian, 10+ Caucasian is like Kashmiri level

You won't see anything near that in the entire South of India and the Gangetic plains, so a clear sign of admixture.

Reference pops with 10-12% Caucasian:


ukranian yunusbayev 20 1% 6% 12%
kashmiri-pandit reich 5 32% 39% 12%
pushtikar-brahmin harappa 1 31% 36% 12%
bhatia harappa 2 25% 46% 12%
punjabi-jatt-muslim harappa 5 30% 39% 12%
brahui hgdp 25 12% 58% 12%
burusho hgdp 25 23% 41% 12%
rajasthani-jatt harappa 2 25% 35% 11%
up-muslim harappa 9 34% 33% 11%
spaniard behar 12 0% 7% 11%
tygray pagani 21 0% 0% 11%
libya henn2012 17 0% 1% 11%
punjabi harappa 13 33% 39% 11%
kashmiri-pahari harappa 3 33% 40% 10%
cochin-jew behar 4 44% 31% 10%
punjabi-jatt-sikh harappa 15 28% 39% 10%
punjabi-brahmin harappa 3 34% 39% 10%
spaniard 1000genomes 98 1% 6% 10%
amhara pagani 25 0% 0% 10%
belorussian behar 9 1% 5% 10%
punjabi-arain xing 25 31% 44% 10%
sindhi hgdp 24 29% 46% 10%
french hgdp 28 0% 9% 10%

Cochin Jew score - remarkably similar, except for the Mediterranean component



S Indian 44%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 1%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 0%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 0%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 5%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%


High NE Asian + SE Asian, something ive just noticed

Relatively high Caucasian and SW Asian, 10+ Caucasian is like Kashmiri level

You won't see anything near that in the entire South of India and the Gangetic plains, so a clear sign of admixture.

Reference pops with 10-12% Caucasian:


ukranian yunusbayev 20 1% 6% 12%
kashmiri-pandit reich 5 32% 39% 12%
pushtikar-brahmin harappa 1 31% 36% 12%
bhatia harappa 2 25% 46% 12%
punjabi-jatt-muslim harappa 5 30% 39% 12%
brahui hgdp 25 12% 58% 12%
burusho hgdp 25 23% 41% 12%
rajasthani-jatt harappa 2 25% 35% 11%
up-muslim harappa 9 34% 33% 11%
spaniard behar 12 0% 7% 11%
tygray pagani 21 0% 0% 11%
libya henn2012 17 0% 1% 11%
punjabi harappa 13 33% 39% 11%
kashmiri-pahari harappa 3 33% 40% 10%
cochin-jew behar 4 44% 31% 10%
punjabi-jatt-sikh harappa 15 28% 39% 10%
punjabi-brahmin harappa 3 34% 39% 10%
spaniard 1000genomes 98 1% 6% 10%
amhara pagani 25 0% 0% 10%
belorussian behar 9 1% 5% 10%
punjabi-arain xing 25 31% 44% 10%
sindhi hgdp 24 29% 46% 10%
french hgdp 28 0% 9% 10%

Cochin Jew score - remarkably similar, except for the Mediterranean component



S Indian 44%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 1%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 0%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 0%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 5%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%

They seem to be consistent in their Caucasian+SW Asian scores in harappa which hover around 13-15% .
Just for comparison i have added me and my relatives Caucasian + Med + SW Asian scores
Me = 4.75+0+2.29 =7.04
PGF = 5.11+1.14+0.25=6.49
PGM = 3.80+0.09+3.34=7.23
MGM = 3.72+0.91+1.44=6.07

Syrian Christian Average (68 kits excluding knanaya ones) = 6.24 +0.52+1.97 = 8.73

bmoney
08-25-2018, 08:47 AM
They seem to be consistent in their Caucasian+SW Asian scores in harappa which hover around 13-15% .
Just for comparison i have added me and my relatives Caucasian + Med + SW Asian scores
Me = 4.75+0+2.29 =7.04
PGF = 5.11+1.14+0.25=6.49
PGM = 3.80+0.09+3.34=7.23
MGM = 3.72+0.91+1.44=6.07

Syrian Christian Average (68 kits excluding knanaya ones) = 6.24 +0.52+1.97 = 8.73

Kerala Nair reference 6.9%
Kerala Brahman 8.13%
Me 7.46%

Thomas48
08-25-2018, 08:52 AM
They seem to be consistent in their Caucasian+SW Asian scores in harappa which hover around 13-15% .
Just for comparison i have added me and my relatives Caucasian + Med + SW Asian scores
Me = 4.75+0+2.29 =7.04
PGF = 5.11+1.14+0.25=6.49
PGM = 3.80+0.09+3.34=7.23
MGM = 3.72+0.91+1.44=6.07

Syrian Christian Average (68 kits excluding knanaya ones) = 6.24 +0.52+1.97 = 8.73

I was wondering how you can differentiate which ones are Knanaya and which ones are Nasrani? For the most part I’ve been emailing the individuals who show up in my matches and asking if they are Knanaya, which all have been so far. I think at this point it’s relatively safe to say that the Syrian Christians of Kerala are not only Syrian Christians in liturgy but to an extent also genetically, again likely waves of Middle Eastern migrations fueled by trade. It’s interesting to see that huge variation FtDNA and Harappa have in autosomal figures, Nasrani score much lower on FtDNA on average but higher on average on Harappa which seems to be a much more accurate source. Thank you for this figure BMG, I’ll make note of this for future studies.

Thomas48
08-25-2018, 08:52 AM
They seem to be consistent in their Caucasian+SW Asian scores in harappa which hover around 13-15% .
Just for comparison i have added me and my relatives Caucasian + Med + SW Asian scores
Me = 4.75+0+2.29 =7.04
PGF = 5.11+1.14+0.25=6.49
PGM = 3.80+0.09+3.34=7.23
MGM = 3.72+0.91+1.44=6.07

Syrian Christian Average (68 kits excluding knanaya ones) = 6.24 +0.52+1.97 = 8.73

I was wondering how you can differentiate which ones are Knanaya and which ones are Nasrani? For the most part I’ve been emailing the individuals who show up in my matches and asking if they are Knanaya, which all have been so far. I think at this point it’s relatively safe to say that the Syrian Christians of Kerala are not only Syrian Christians in liturgy but to an extent also genetically, again likely waves of Middle Eastern migrations fueled by trade. It’s interesting to see that huge variation FtDNA and Harappa have in autosomal figures, Nasrani score much lower on FtDNA on average but higher on average on Harappa which seems to be a much more accurate source. Thank you for this figure BMG, I’ll make note of this for future studies.

Thomas48
08-25-2018, 08:58 AM
Kerala Nair reference 6.9%
Kerala Brahman 8.13%
Me 7.46%

How many Nair and Brahman samples are those figures from?

BMG
08-25-2018, 11:37 AM
I was wondering how you can differentiate which ones are Knanaya and which ones are Nasrani? For the most part I’ve been emailing the individuals who show up in my matches and asking if they are Knanaya, which all have been so far. I think at this point it’s relatively safe to say that the Syrian Christians of Kerala are not only Syrian Christians in liturgy but to an extent also genetically, again likely waves of Middle Eastern migrations fueled by trade. It’s interesting to see that huge variation FtDNA and Harappa have in autosomal figures, Nasrani score much lower on FtDNA on average but higher on average on Harappa which seems to be a much more accurate source. Thank you for this figure BMG, I’ll make note of this for future studies.

I don't know regarding the accuracy of ftdna . But unlike harappa calculator they are designed to find more recent ancestry so ftdna results could be accurate for recent ancestry . They have given me 3% SE Europe in myorigins which contradict all other tests.

Thomas48
08-25-2018, 06:11 PM
I don't know regarding the accuracy of ftdna . But unlike harappa calculator they are designed to find more recent ancestry so ftdna results could be accurate for recent ancestry . They have given me 3% SE Europe in myorigins which contradict all other tests.

I see thank you. One thing I've noticed is that FtDNA gives many Nasrani a large Central Asian component as well, some individuals around 10%. I'm assuming perhaps this is converted to Baloch in Harappa and yes I've also seen many with SE Europe as well on FtDNA. Many Syrian Christians in general also have an inkling of Jewish Diaspora on FtDNA as well, sometimes Ashkenazi and many Sephardic (likely Paradesi Jew admixture) often in 1-2%. Would you guys happen to know the Cochin Jew Harappa Average (Caucasian + Med + SW Asian)?

These were the percentages I had noted from 48 samples from FtDNA of Nasrani (Non-Knanaya):

Population Percentage
South/Central Asian 93
Middle Eastern/Jewish Diaspora 3
European 1.2
Oceanian 0.31
South East Asian 0.25
North East Asian 0.1
North/Central American 0.1
African 0.1

BMG
08-25-2018, 06:44 PM
I see thank you. One thing I've noticed is that FtDNA gives many Nasrani a large Central Asian component as well, some individuals around 10%. I'm assuming perhaps this is converted to Baloch in Harappa and yes I've also seen many with SE Europe as well on FtDNA. Many Syrian Christians in general also have an inkling of Jewish Diaspora on FtDNA as well, sometimes Ashkenazi and many Sephardic (likely Paradesi Jew admixture) often in 1-2%. Would you guys happen to know the Cochin Jew Harappa Average (Caucasian + Med + SW Asian)?

These were the percentages I had noted from 48 samples from FtDNA of Nasrani (Non-Knanaya):

Population Percentage
South/Central Asian 93
Middle Eastern/Jewish Diaspora 3
European 1.2
Oceanian 0.31
South East Asian 0.25
North East Asian 0.1
North/Central American 0.1
African 0.1

The Central asian component in myorigins is actually northwest indian ancestry . I think 10% is bit low . I have 21% central asia and another kit is having 23% central asia so i was thinking that is the norm among syrian christians .

Thomas48
08-25-2018, 11:02 PM
The Central asian component in myorigins is actually northwest indian ancestry . I think 10% is bit low . I have 21% central asia and another kit is having 23% central asia so i was thinking that is the norm among syrian christians .

Yes my own was 11%, I think I have also seen other Syrian Christians with Central Asian component from Northwest India around 20%. The samples that I'm still able to view on FtDNA all have their Central Asian component from Northwest India as well, one is as high at 47%.

bmoney
08-26-2018, 06:34 AM
How many Nair and Brahman samples are those figures from?

Super low sample size, 1 Brahmin and 4 Nairs

bmoney
08-26-2018, 07:31 AM
I see thank you. One thing I've noticed is that FtDNA gives many Nasrani a large Central Asian component as well, some individuals around 10%. I'm assuming perhaps this is converted to Baloch in Harappa and yes I've also seen many with SE Europe as well on FtDNA. Many Syrian Christians in general also have an inkling of Jewish Diaspora on FtDNA as well, sometimes Ashkenazi and many Sephardic (likely Paradesi Jew admixture) often in 1-2%. Would you guys happen to know the Cochin Jew Harappa Average (Caucasian + Med + SW Asian)?

These were the percentages I had noted from 48 samples from FtDNA of Nasrani (Non-Knanaya):

Population Percentage
South/Central Asian 93
Middle Eastern/Jewish Diaspora 3
European 1.2
Oceanian 0.31
South East Asian 0.25
North East Asian 0.1
North/Central American 0.1
African 0.1

18.79%

Rethel
08-26-2018, 11:30 AM
Starting this thread for discussion regarding Kerala YDNA distribution and updates.

Do you have some trustfull data for whole India?

Rustyshakelford
08-26-2018, 03:51 PM
18.79%

Do you know how many samples this is based on?

Thomas48
08-26-2018, 04:52 PM
18.79%

Wow that’s very high. I’m wondering if this average is based off both lines of Cochin Jews (Malabari and Paradesi). I would have assumed the Malabari Cochin Jew average is similar to the Knanaya around 13-15% or perhaps even less with more admixture, since the Malabari have been in India since the 1st century according to their folk history. I’m sure however that the Paradesi Cochin Jew would look completely different then Malabari Cochin Jew and Knanaya autosomal DNA for the reason that they arrived from Al Andalos (Modern Day Spain) in the 15/16th century. With only 500 years of very limited admixture (Paradesis were extremely endogamous, to the point they did not even marry Malabari Cochin Jews in some cases), Paradesi autosomal dna should in theory very closely match Iberian/Sephardic Jews.

BMG
08-26-2018, 06:26 PM
Wow that’s very high. I’m wondering if this average is based off both lines of Cochin Jews (Malabari and Paradesi). I would have assumed the Malabari Cochin Jew average is similar to the Knanaya around 13-15% or perhaps even less with more admixture, since the Malabari have been in India since the 1st century according to their folk history. I’m sure however that the Paradesi Cochin Jew would look completely different then Malabari Cochin Jew and Knanaya autosomal DNA for the reason that they arrived from Al Andalos (Modern Day Spain) in the 15/16th century. With only 500 years of very limited admixture (Paradesis were extremely endogamous, to the point they did not even marry Malabari Cochin Jews in some cases), Paradesi autosomal dna should in theory very closely match Iberian/Sephardic Jews.
Those are not paradesi jews . If i remember two of the samples had slightly higher pull towards middle east but still not that different .They seemed to be related to each other as well.

bmoney
08-26-2018, 11:48 PM
Do you know how many samples this is based on?

4 samples

vishankar
08-27-2018, 05:49 PM
happy onam to all on this forum!...

vishankar
08-27-2018, 05:52 PM
the kerala nair and brahmin sizes are too small for any meaningful statistics....any method of obtaining more data from autosomal data which is unalysed? perhaps from geno 2.0 or ftdna?....the syrian christian data is robust on the other hand!

BMG
08-28-2018, 04:26 PM
Yes my own was 11%, I think I have also seen other Syrian Christians with Central Asian component from Northwest India around 20%. The samples that I'm still able to view on FtDNA all have their Central Asian component from Northwest India as well, one is as high at 47%.
Is there a big variation in central asia component among the kits .If that is the case i think the test is less reliable . In the earlier version of myorigins even the siblings got vastly different results . I haven't seen enough results of later version but heard it has improved considerably at least in case of europeans .

Rustyshakelford
08-28-2018, 11:55 PM
the kerala nair and brahmin sizes are too small for any meaningful statistics....any method of obtaining more data from autosomal data which is unalysed? perhaps from geno 2.0 or ftdna?....the syrian christian data is robust on the other hand!

Yes the sample sizes are too small. no ezhava results at all, despite being the most numerous caste in kerala.

a few users on the kerala subreddit have posted there results which includes a pulaya, ezhava and a kozhikode mappila: http://www.reddit.com/r/Kerala/comments/8aqj9x/malayalees_dna_makeup/

Rustyshakelford
08-29-2018, 12:00 AM
High NE Asian + SE Asian, something ive just noticed

Relatively high Caucasian and SW Asian, 10+ Caucasian is like Kashmiri level

You won't see anything near that in the entire South of India and the Gangetic plains, so a clear sign of admixture.

Reference pops with 10-12% Caucasian:


ukranian yunusbayev 20 1% 6% 12%
kashmiri-pandit reich 5 32% 39% 12%
pushtikar-brahmin harappa 1 31% 36% 12%
bhatia harappa 2 25% 46% 12%
punjabi-jatt-muslim harappa 5 30% 39% 12%
brahui hgdp 25 12% 58% 12%
burusho hgdp 25 23% 41% 12%
rajasthani-jatt harappa 2 25% 35% 11%
up-muslim harappa 9 34% 33% 11%
spaniard behar 12 0% 7% 11%
tygray pagani 21 0% 0% 11%
libya henn2012 17 0% 1% 11%
punjabi harappa 13 33% 39% 11%
kashmiri-pahari harappa 3 33% 40% 10%
cochin-jew behar 4 44% 31% 10%
punjabi-jatt-sikh harappa 15 28% 39% 10%
punjabi-brahmin harappa 3 34% 39% 10%
spaniard 1000genomes 98 1% 6% 10%
amhara pagani 25 0% 0% 10%
belorussian behar 9 1% 5% 10%
punjabi-arain xing 25 31% 44% 10%
sindhi hgdp 24 29% 46% 10%
french hgdp 28 0% 9% 10%

Cochin Jew score - remarkably similar, except for the Mediterranean component



S Indian 44%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 1%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 0%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 0%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 5%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%

what do you think is a possible explanation for the relatively high NE Asian and SE asian?

bmoney
08-29-2018, 12:47 AM
Yes the sample sizes are too small. no ezhava results at all, despite being the most numerous caste in kerala.

a few users on the kerala subreddit have posted there results which includes a pulaya, ezhava and a kozhikode mappila: http://www.reddit.com/r/Kerala/comments/8aqj9x/malayalees_dna_makeup/

Interesting, relatively high Caucasian (excess ancient Iran_N/CHG it looks like) seems to be widespread, but not NE Euro

bmoney
08-29-2018, 12:49 AM
what do you think is a possible explanation for the relatively high NE Asian and SE asian?

No idea, SE Asian is Munda related in populations like Bangladeshis but i'm not sure why it would show up in the southern peninsula.

NE Asian, I get a bit too, could be just noise

Thomas48
08-29-2018, 03:19 AM
Is there a big variation in central asia component among the kits .If that is the case i think the test is less reliable . In the earlier version of myorigins even the siblings got vastly different results . I haven't seen enough results of later version but heard it has improved considerably at least in case of europeans .

Yes from what I had seen earlier there was a big variation, some as low as 10% like myself and others as high as 50%. I would check for you again but FtDNA has changed its privacy policy, so admins can no longer view samples without the individuals changing their privacy settings.

BMG
08-29-2018, 04:11 AM
Yes the sample sizes are too small. no ezhava results at all, despite being the most numerous caste in kerala.

a few users on the kerala subreddit have posted there results which includes a pulaya, ezhava and a kozhikode mappila: http://www.reddit.com/r/Kerala/comments/8aqj9x/malayalees_dna_makeup/
Thiyya result was interesting . High Caucasian but low ne-euro .

vishankar
08-29-2018, 04:00 PM
The Thiyya differs from the nair in a greater ASI,lesser( marginally) NE europe and some SE asian plus pygmy. west african ,san components.The Knanaya was surprising in the total lack of NE europe and mediterranean( i expected some),but highest caucasian for malayalis.I think that caucasian + sw asian is keeping with their Levantine origins.

Thomas48
09-01-2018, 06:54 PM
Are there any more samples of Cochin Jews available for comparison? It’s interesting to note that there are two major opinions for the origins of the Knanaya that one they are indeed those who came with Thomas of Cana to India and two that they are simply Cochin Jews that Thomas of Cana converted when he arrived to India. It’s interesting to note that Knanaya folk traditions, songs, etc are very correlated to that of the Cochin Jews, even some songs sharing the exact lyrics as I mentioned earlier. Knanaya and Cochin Jew autosomal DNA is remarkably similar as well. This is truly something that needs to be studied further.

bmoney
09-02-2018, 01:14 AM
Are there any more samples of Cochin Jews available for comparison? It’s interesting to note that there are two major opinions for the origins of the Knanaya that one they are indeed those who came with Thomas of Cana to India and two that they are simply Cochin Jews that Thomas of Cana converted when he arrived to India. It’s interesting to note that Knanaya folk traditions, songs, etc are very correlated to that of the Cochin Jews, even some songs sharing the exact lyrics as I mentioned earlier. Knanaya and Cochin Jew autosomal DNA is remarkably similar as well. This is truly something that needs to be studied further.

From a genetic perspective, it seems hard to distinguish them from Cochin Jews and genetics has primacy IMO

Thomas48
09-02-2018, 01:49 AM
From a genetic perspective, it seems hard to distinguish them from Cochin Jews and genetics has primacy IMO

I agree and they are also culturally identical too. The main issue is that the history is very distorted, relying mainly on folk tradition and European sources as early as the 1400’s. Before that the first Knanaya recorded in history is from 1300 and the only thing known about him is that he wrote a Syriac text. The oldest document the Knanaya had was a copper plate grant given to Thomas of Cana but that was lost by the Portuguese. However they did record the contents of it and it is extremely similar to the Cochin Jews’ Joseph Rabban copper plate. Both mention identical 72 privileges, the Knanaya tradition states they got 72 homes and a church, the Cochin Jew tradition states they got 72 homes and a synagogue. The correlations are endless but again a lack of primary resources is the main issue.

Thomas48
09-02-2018, 05:54 AM
From a genetic perspective, it seems hard to distinguish them from Cochin Jews and genetics has primacy IMO

Do you think that perhaps this genetic correlation could simply be because both are from the Middle East and stayed relatively endogamous? I’m not ruling out the idea that the Knanaya could simply be converted Cochin Jews but the Knanaya also have such a strong tie to the Syriac Christian tradition in both culture and history. Even in the folk history of the St. Thomas Christians, a common theme is that Thomas of Cana and the Knanaya helped to restore East Syriac Christianity in India and bridge a connection with the Assyrian Church in the 4th century when they arrived.

bmoney
09-02-2018, 02:21 PM
Do you think that perhaps this genetic correlation could simply be because both are from the Middle East and stayed relatively endogamous? I’m not ruling out the idea that the Knanaya could simply be converted Cochin Jews but the Knanaya also have such a strong tie to the Syriac Christian tradition in both culture and history. Even in the folk history of the St. Thomas Christians, a common theme is that Thomas of Cana and the Knanaya helped to restore East Syriac Christianity in India and bridge a connection with the Assyrian Church in the 4th century when they arrived.

Could be either, but their profile seems remarkably similar to Cochin Jews which seems to hard to explain as coincidence

Rustyshakelford
09-02-2018, 05:21 PM
Could be either, but their profile seems remarkably similar to Cochin Jews which seems to hard to explain as coincidence

Are the Haplogroups same too?

bmoney
09-03-2018, 12:04 AM
Are the Haplogroups same too?

Good question, not sure

Thomas48
09-03-2018, 01:07 AM
Here's Knanaya #26:

S-Indian 43.36
Baloch 34.20
Caucasian 9.23
NE-Euro 2.16
SE-Asian 2.16
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.90
Papuan 0.81
American 0.94
Beringian -
Mediterranean 1.60
SW-Asian 3.80
San -
E-African 0.58
Pygmy 0.24
W-African -

Interesting to note that this one has some Mediterranean, I have other samples that also have this in 1-2% but the vast majority don't have a significant amount, usually something under 1%.

BMG
09-03-2018, 02:29 AM
Are the Haplogroups same too?
Cochin jews mtdna is almost fully indian . The main haplogroups among them are M64, M5a1,N1d ,R30a,R5a2 and U1b according to doron behar 2008 study.
A recent study link below shows diverse mtdna haplogroups for Cochin Jews
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166

Another autosomal study about Cochin Jews .
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5020127/

Thomas48
09-05-2018, 04:39 AM
I hope we can continue to gain more and more samples of the people of Kerala. People often over-look the fact of just how important of a trade center the Malabar Coast was. Relatively speaking, our people played a great role in shaping the economy of the world. Europeans, Middle Easterners, North Africans, and the Chinese all benefited in some way or the other from the wealth that poured from Muziris. So many Western centric “scholars” talk about how savage of a land India was but it was our wealth and our pepper that we sold and made the world turn. The pepper from the Malabar Coast was such a luxury good that it was referred to as “Black Gold”. Foreign merchants leaving Kerala with a bag full of pepper would return to their homes richer then nobles. It’s interesting how when the Portuguese arrive to Kerala they initially followed the regulations and port policies of the Kingdom of Cochin which was very open to foreign trade and investment. Later the Portuguese grew greedy and didn’t care for the privealges and equality the Kings of Cochin gave to all merchants. The Portuguese grew jealous of the Arabs and other Mapilla communties who benefited from trade in Malabar, so they like the majority of all Colonial entities turned to violence. I find it amazing that when the Portuguese started burning the ships of Arabs and other merchant communties in Malabar, the Hindu port official writes that these people are “savages”. For the first time in history you see a community who is considered savage by the Europeans calling the colonizers themselves savage. The letter of the port official is still available till this date.

Rustyshakelford
09-18-2018, 08:52 PM
Autosomal results from FTDNA:

South Central Asian: 61%
Central Asia: 25%
Asian Minor: 11%
Southeast Europe: 2%
West Middle East: <1%
Sephardic: <1%

Have uploaded to Gedmatch. Anyone know how long it typically takes to process?

Thomas48
09-18-2018, 10:50 PM
Autosomal results from FTDNA:

South Central Asian: 61%
Central Asia: 25%
Asian Minor: 11%
Southeast Europe: 2%
West Middle East: <1%
Sephardic: <1%

Have uploaded to Gedmatch. Anyone know how long it typically takes to process?

Wow an exact match to other Knanaya, except Southeast Europe is a variable. GedMatch usually takes about 5-10 min to see admixture, however the matches section takes about a day I beleive. Have you guys heard of Geneplaza? It’s a similar platform to GedMatch however it’s quite interesting because it essentially removes the probability aspect of comparing modern day populations and ancestral populations. To my knowledge certain platforms on Geneplaza compare samples to fossil samples of ancestral populations and not modern day samples. It’s interesting to note that Knanaya on Geneplaza are showing about 10% Middle Ancestry specifically as Iraqi/Georgian Jews.

Rustyshakelford
09-18-2018, 11:01 PM
Wow an exact match to other Knanaya, except Southeast Europe is a variable. GedMatch usually takes about 5-10 min to see admixture, however the matches section takes about a day I beleive. Have you guys heard of Geneplaza? It’s a similar platform to GedMatch however it’s quite interesting because it essentially removes the probability aspect of comparing modern day populations and ancestral populations. To my knowledge certain platforms on Geneplaza compare samples to fossil samples of ancestral populations and not modern day samples. It’s interesting to note that Knanaya on Geneplaza are showing about 10% Middle Ancestry specifically as Iraqi/Georgian Jews.

should i reupload or wait a few days? its been a couple of hours.

Rustyshakelford
09-18-2018, 11:14 PM
Heres my Harappa

S-Indian 43.48
Baloch 36.04
Caucasian 9.70
NE-Euro 1.35
SE-Asian 2.52
Siberian 0.41
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.72
American 0.46
Beringian 0.45
Mediterranean 0.19
SW-Asian 4.60
San -
E-African 0.08
Pygmy -
W-African -





Eurogenes:

Population
North_Atlantic -
Baltic 2.25
West_Med -
West_Asian 25.83
East_Med 8.63
Red_Sea 1.28
South_Asian 57.92
East_Asian 1.60
Siberian 0.48
Amerindian 0.37
Oceanian 0.52
Northeast_African 1.11
Sub-Saharan -


Any other calculators I should use?

Thomas48
09-19-2018, 12:07 AM
Heres my Harappa

S-Indian 43.48
Baloch 36.04
Caucasian 9.70
NE-Euro 1.35
SE-Asian 2.52
Siberian 0.41
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.72
American 0.46
Beringian 0.45
Mediterranean 0.19
SW-Asian 4.60
San -
E-African 0.08
Pygmy -
W-African -





Eurogenes:

Population
North_Atlantic -
Baltic 2.25
West_Med -
West_Asian 25.83
East_Med 8.63
Red_Sea 1.28
South_Asian 57.92
East_Asian 1.60
Siberian 0.48
Amerindian 0.37
Oceanian 0.52
Northeast_African 1.11
Sub-Saharan -


Any other calculators I should use?

Another exact match to the last 25 samples of Knanaya. I wouldn’t recommend Eurogenes as an admixture calculator for the reason that is seems to base the results on more ancient migratory patterns. As in their West Asian descriptor is more likely a Baloch indicator if you compare it to Harappa. Indian groups who don’t claim Middle Eastern ancestry will even shown very elevated West Asian ancestry on Eurogenes.

Rustyshakelford
09-19-2018, 12:50 AM
Another exact match to the last 25 samples of Knanaya. I wouldn’t recommend Eurogenes as an admixture calculator for the reason that is seems to base the results on more ancient migratory patterns. As in their West Asian descriptor is more likely a Baloch indicator if you compare it to Harappa. Indian groups who don’t claim Middle Eastern ancestry will even shown very elevated West Asian ancestry on Eurogenes.

Kind of surprised that Harappa showed no Mediterranean at all despite scoring 2% Southeast European on FTDNA.
Oracles all have Cochin Jews at the top of the list.

Thomas48
09-19-2018, 01:34 AM
Kind of surprised that Harappa showed no Mediterranean at all despite scoring 2% Southeast European on FTDNA.
Oracles all have Cochin Jews at the top of the list.

Yes the Knanaya seem to generally lack the Mediterranean component or have it in minuscule percentages <2. Though I’m curious what distinctions Harappa makes between the Mediterranean and Southwest Asian descriptor.

Thomas48
09-19-2018, 06:46 AM
Wow this is quite remarkable, here are my results from Geneplaza K29 Oracle:


Indian (Gujarati): 61.0%
South Central Asian (Balochi) : 20.6%
West Asian (Iraqi & Georgian Jews): 11.4%
Southeast Asian (Burmese, Cambodian, Thai): 5.2%
Oceanian: 1.7%
Central Amerindian: 0.2%

Does anyone know the reputation of this oracle? I don’t understand how my Indian ancestry is Gujurati, unless it is ANI.

BMG
09-19-2018, 07:03 PM
Among the 168 mtdna results i have collected over the years U1a1c4 seems to be the most common mtdna haplogroup with 29/168 samples . There are diverse south asian haplogroups of which main ones are M2a,M6a,M33a2,R5a2and R6 which have at least over 10 samples each . There are many plain M which i didn't count since they actually may belong to different subgroups . Out of curiosity i checked for the west eurasian haplogroups among us . Other than U1a1c4 there is H-1 H20-1 HV-2 HV14a-1 J1b1a-2 J1b1a1-1 J1b1b1-1 U4b-1 U7-2 .No east eurasian specific haplogroup was found so far . In contrast the west eurasian haplogroup found among cochin jews(305 samples) are HV1a1-1,HV1a3-6,J1c2a-1,J1c8-3,K1ab1a-4,K1a4d-3 ,U1-15 ,U2e-17,U4-1,U5b1b-3 and U7-13 .

bmoney
09-20-2018, 12:21 AM
Wow this is quite remarkable, here are my results from Geneplaza K29 Oracle:


Indian (Gujarati): 61.0%
South Central Asian (Balochi) : 20.6%
West Asian (Iraqi & Georgian Jews): 11.4%
Southeast Asian (Burmese, Cambodian, Thai): 5.2%
Oceanian: 1.7%
Central Amerindian: 0.2%

Does anyone know the reputation of this oracle? I don’t understand how my Indian ancestry is Gujurati, unless it is ANI.

Thomas send your kit to [email protected], pay the USD fee and get your genome co-ordinates.

I can do some modelling on your ancestry to isolate the West Asian. Don't bother with calcs

Rustyshakelford
09-20-2018, 01:28 AM
Thomas send your kit to [email protected], pay the USD fee and get your genome co-ordinates.

I can do some modelling on your ancestry to isolate the West Asian. Don't bother with calcs

How much is it?

Also would you recommend I reach out to Dr Doug McDonald to take a look at my kit?

bmoney
09-20-2018, 02:22 AM
How much is it?

Also would you recommend I reach out to Dr Doug McDonald to take a look at my kit?

If youd like to

Its $10 USD i believe. Ask David via email

Thomas48
09-20-2018, 06:07 AM
Thomas send your kit to [email protected], pay the USD fee and get your genome co-ordinates.

I can do some modelling on your ancestry to isolate the West Asian. Don't bother with calcs

I’ve sent them an email, I’ll let you know their response.

vishankar
09-24-2018, 04:28 PM
HI ..on an initial assessment from family tree dna I have-ancient origins- 59% metal age invader,16% farmer, 0 hunter gatherer and 24 % non european.. does this foretell anything?...I am a malayali nair from south central kerala...

Thomas48
09-24-2018, 09:14 PM
HI ..on an initial assessment from family tree dna I have-ancient origins- 59% metal age invader,16% farmer, 0 hunter gatherer and 24 % non european.. does this foretell anything?...I am a malayali nair from south central kerala...

What were your family finder results?

Also here is Knanaya #28, seems to match the others entirely.


Population
S-Indian 44.90
Baloch 35.20
Caucasian 10.74
NE-Euro 1.11
SE-Asian 2.26
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.48
Papuan 0.18
American 0.84
Beringian -
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 3.48
San -
E-African 0.81
Pygmy -
W-African -

bmoney
09-25-2018, 10:08 AM
HI ..on an initial assessment from family tree dna I have-ancient origins- 59% metal age invader,16% farmer, 0 hunter gatherer and 24 % non european.. does this foretell anything?...I am a malayali nair from south central kerala...

vishankar can you upload your kit to gedmatch https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php and run the harappadna calculator on your kit?

What is your y-dna and mtdna?

vishankar
09-25-2018, 03:18 PM
hi not yet received my mt dna or ydna....but i used harappa and here are the results..
Population
S-Indian 50.44
Baloch 34.07
Caucasian 6.11
NE-Euro 3.48
SE-Asian 0.28
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.46
Papuan 0.70
American -
Beringian 0.77
Mediterranean 1.97
SW-Asian 0.73
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

vishankar
09-25-2018, 03:20 PM
so i have more ASI than usual nairs, christians:)....less baloch,BUT NE EUROPE is 3.48 and some mediterranean 1.97....friends !

vishankar
09-25-2018, 03:32 PM
I did not order mt dna... too expensive!, family finder and Y-dna 37( results awaited)...in the meantime I studied the raw data from this paper -Haplotype analysis of the polymorphic
17 YSTR markers in Kerala nontribal
populations- seema nair parvathy et al, and using whit atheys haplogroup predictor made a spreadsheet for ezhavas,nairs, christians, muslims,vellala and brahmins....in the next post i will reveal the frequencies of R1a among the various communities...Bmoney, Thomas,BMG ,Mandoos... need your valuable inputs!

vishankar
09-25-2018, 03:34 PM
hi thomas... so far in my origins-central asia -14%,south asia -78%,south east europe 8%...

BMG
09-25-2018, 03:45 PM
so i have more ASI than usual nairs, christians:)....less baloch,BUT NE EUROPE is 3.48 and some mediterranean 1.97....friends !

Not necessarily . You can't take the harappa S.indian values for ASI . You may well have lower ASI than a person with 45% S.Indian . Overall your results are well within the range which is expected . There will be variation of 2-3% in major components even among siblings so don't read too much into it .

vishankar
09-25-2018, 05:54 PM
here it is-
1) brahmin- only 3 samples- frequency of R1a-33.3%.
2)ezhavas- 110 samples- R1a- 33.6%.
3)nairs- 37 samples- R1a- 45.94%.
4)vellalas- 2 samples- one J1, another E1B1B.
5)muslims- 9 samples-R1a- 33.3%.
6) christians- 7 samples- R1a- 42.8%.
the sample sizes for groups other than the nairs and ezhavas are again too small, but at least something is better than nothing.!

Rustyshakelford
09-25-2018, 07:26 PM
David sent me my coordinates:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
JosephN_scaled,0.053497,-0.036559,-0.147454,0.079781,-0.071706,0.052431,0.00094,0.007384,0.02802,0.01366 8,0.000162,-0.001798,0.001933,0.001514,0.001764,0.004773,0.002 738,0.002154,0.005279,-0.009379,0.004367,-0.004204,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.000359

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
JosephN,0.0047,-0.0036,-0.0391,0.0247,-0.0233,0.0188,0.0004,0.0032,0.0137,0.0075,0.0001,-0.0012,0.0013,0.0011,0.0013,0.0036,0.0021,0.0017,0 .0042,-0.0075,0.0035,-0.0034,-0.0016,-0.0046,0.0003

[1] "distance%=2.0467"

JosephN_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,73.2
Barcin_N,10.8
Ganj_Dareh_N,9.8
Yamnaya_Samara,3
Han,1.8
WHG,1.4


Anyone know how to do the modeling for these? @BMG @bmoney

bmoney
09-25-2018, 11:19 PM
Not necessarily . You can't take the harappa S.indian values for ASI . You may well have lower ASI than a person with 45% S.Indian . Overall your results are well within the range which is expected . There will be variation of 2-3% in major components even among siblings so don't read too much into it .

Disagree, it definitely loosely correlates with AASI from what I've seen from others results despite the component itself not being fully AASI

What Nair subcaste are you from vishankar?

bmoney
09-25-2018, 11:20 PM
David sent me my coordinates:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
JosephN_scaled,0.053497,-0.036559,-0.147454,0.079781,-0.071706,0.052431,0.00094,0.007384,0.02802,0.01366 8,0.000162,-0.001798,0.001933,0.001514,0.001764,0.004773,0.002 738,0.002154,0.005279,-0.009379,0.004367,-0.004204,-0.001972,-0.005543,0.000359

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
JosephN,0.0047,-0.0036,-0.0391,0.0247,-0.0233,0.0188,0.0004,0.0032,0.0137,0.0075,0.0001,-0.0012,0.0013,0.0011,0.0013,0.0036,0.0021,0.0017,0 .0042,-0.0075,0.0035,-0.0034,-0.0016,-0.0046,0.0003

[1] "distance%=2.0467"

JosephN_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,73.2
Barcin_N,10.8
Ganj_Dareh_N,9.8
Yamnaya_Samara,3
Han,1.8
WHG,1.4


Anyone know how to do the modeling for these? @BMG @bmoney

I'll work on it today

But immediately from Davids modelling your Barcin (recent West Asian) is higher than nearly all South Asians so far, and your steppe is lower than North Indian forward castes and Southern Brahmins

It suggests foreign admixture into a local low steppe population which I've said before about the Knanaya

Rustyshakelford
09-25-2018, 11:59 PM
I'll work on it today

But immediately from Davids modelling your Barcin (recent West Asian) is higher than nearly all South Asians so far, and your steppe is lower than North Indian forward castes and Southern Brahmins

It suggests foreign admixture into a local low steppe population which I've said before about the Knanaya

Appreciate it! This stuff is all way over my head. Also is there a compiled spreadsheet or anything so I can compare it to others?

bmoney
09-26-2018, 01:09 AM
Appreciate it! This stuff is all way over my head. Also is there a compiled spreadsheet or anything so I can compare it to others?

It looks like the Knanaya are predominantly middle-caste Central Kerala people with 8-10% Semitic admixture preserved that surrounding populations do not have.

Indo-Aryan mix is lower than Brahmins or myself but higher than Kush (Telangana Reddy). Indo-Aryan admix seems widespread in Kerala forward castes but is missing completely in the Irula (probably first Keralans)

Varun Soulblighter and 281212 are part or full Tamil Brahmins

Brahmin Gujarat - Brahmin-like North Indian admixture (Indo-Aryan)
Paniya- Tribal/South Indian Adivasi admixture
Velama - South Indian middle caste/farmer admixture (Dravidian)
Yemenite Jew - Excess/Recent West Asian admixture (Semitic)

For experienced members I excluded 15% and above from the average from reference pops, 1000 x 500 cycles 0 pen

https://i.imgur.com/9YsyqDk.png

Rustyshakelford
09-26-2018, 01:39 AM
It looks like the Knanaya are predominantly middle-caste Central Kerala people with 8-10% Semitic admixture preserved that surrounding populations do not have.

Indo-Aryan mix is lower than Brahmins or myself but higher than Kush (Telangana Reddy). Indo-Aryan admix seems widespread in Kerala forward castes but is missing completely in the Irula (probably first Keralans)

Varun Soulblighter and 281212 are part or full Tamil Brahmins

Brahmin Gujarat - Brahmin-like North Indian admixture (Indo-Aryan)
Paniya- Tribal/South Indian Adivasi admixture
Velama - South Indian middle caste/farmer admixture (Dravidian)
Yemenite Jew - Excess/Recent West Asian admixture (Semitic)

For experienced members I excluded 15% and above from the average from reference pops, 1000 x 500 cycles 0 pen

https://i.imgur.com/9YsyqDk.png

Thanks for the help! is Yemenite jew simply a proxy for West Asian or does it indicate actual descent from Yemenite Jews? I ask because the cochin jews are supposed to have gotten admix from this group.
Also are there any tools available to know when the admixture event took place? is it safe to assume it happened in pre-Hindu times given the low indo-aryan mix?

bmoney
09-26-2018, 02:11 AM
North Indians added. Parasar is a Bihari Brahmin.

Paniya/Adivasi seems to be high in Uttar Pradesh_average outside the Irula

https://i.imgur.com/CwQSQdv.png

Traject and his family - Syrian Christians for comparison.

They also seem to be getting a small West Asian signal not seen in Nairs or Brahmins

https://i.imgur.com/C4NrFPp.png

bmoney
09-26-2018, 02:16 AM
Thanks for the help! is Yemenite jew simply a proxy for West Asian or does it indicate actual descent from Yemenite Jews? I ask because the cochin jews are supposed to have gotten admix from this group.
Also are there any tools available to know when the admixture event took place? is it safe to assume it happened in pre-Hindu times given the low indo-aryan mix?

It happened post-Asoka/Buddhist times I think, as the Indo-Aryan signal is still decent compared to Irulas or to Telugu Reddys

I cant say for certain whether the admixture was from Yemenite Jews or what time it occured from the nmonte method, but the Knanaya most certainly have extra West Asian admixture that South Asians by and large do not have.

So they have Middle-Eastern admixture around 8% from your result and possibly higher. When Thomas48s co-ordinates come in we can test that.

bmoney
09-26-2018, 02:29 AM
Gujarati Patels for comparison, higher Dravidian than Kerala Christians and 0 Arabian:

https://i.imgur.com/cat51jU.png

bmoney
09-26-2018, 02:32 AM
I gotta say, props to Poi again for this model.

It even showed the similarity between Syrian Christians and the Knanaya to the exclusion of other Malayalis

BMG
09-26-2018, 03:16 AM
here it is-
1) brahmin- only 3 samples- frequency of R1a-33.3%.
2)ezhavas- 110 samples- R1a- 33.6%.
3)nairs- 37 samples- R1a- 45.94%.
4)vellalas- 2 samples- one J1, another E1B1B.
5)muslims- 9 samples-R1a- 33.3%.
6) christians- 7 samples- R1a- 42.8%.
the sample sizes for groups other than the nairs and ezhavas are again too small, but at least something is better than nothing.!
Can you post the frequencies of all haplogroups

Rustyshakelford
09-26-2018, 03:20 AM
I gotta say, props to Poi again for this model.

It even discovered the similarity between Syrian Christians and the Knanaya

Any other Syrian Christians samples besides traject?

bmoney
09-26-2018, 03:26 AM
Any other Syrian Christians samples besides traject?

Not with G25 co-ordinates unfortunately.

If people can be asked to purchase it, it would help for sure

vishankar
09-26-2018, 03:40 AM
The surname is Pillai....Illathu nair, I presume ...

Thomas48
09-26-2018, 11:49 PM
Here is Knanaya #29:

Population
S-Indian 45.13
Baloch 33.82
Caucasian 9.58
NE-Euro 1.60
SE-Asian 2.21
Siberian 0.63
NE-Asian -
Papuan 1.16
American -
Beringian 0.78
Mediterranean 0.65
SW-Asian 4.33
San 0.10
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

traject
09-27-2018, 01:41 AM
Did the same Neolithic run of all South Indian users (plus midchlorian) including RustyShackleford (bearing in mind the Khlvyansk sample is low quality as we wait for the Wang samples). Pretty good fit for an all ancients run for RustyShakleford.
26224

vishankar
09-27-2018, 03:27 AM
here are the haplogroup frequencies of the kerala populations as requested by bmoney....26231

bmoney
09-27-2018, 03:37 AM
Did the same Neolithic run of all South Indian users (plus midchlorian) including RustyShackleford (bearing in mind the Khlvyansk sample is low quality as we wait for the Wang samples). Pretty good fit for an all ancients run for RustyShakleford.
26224

Agree, Khvalnysk jumps around a lot in your family and Siberia doesn't seem to follow a pattern

Its generally higher in Brahmins though

bmoney
09-27-2018, 03:40 AM
here are the haplogroup frequencies of the kerala populations as requested by bmoney....26231

Low J2 is interesting

L is low in my relatives, less than 5% when i expand to the top 50 on 23andme and J is higher but below 20%

R1a is slightly higher (50-55%) but yes similar more or less

LOL 1 E1b and 1 L Brahmin!

vishankar
09-27-2018, 12:40 PM
We got to remember that there are only 3 brahmins!...have you noticed the one individual with I2A in the ezhava group....supposed to be of entirely european origin!.. also a nair with G2a...otzi's haplogroup...neolithic farmer i presume

bmoney
09-27-2018, 01:11 PM
We got to remember that there are only 3 brahmins!...have you noticed the one individual with I2A in the ezhava group....supposed to be of entirely european origin!.. also a nair with G2a...otzi's haplogroup...neolithic farmer i presume

G2a is found in Tamil Brahmins

Likely an old neolithic Iran related haplogroup

I2a is most likely due to a European male

vishankar
09-27-2018, 02:22 PM
I2a in ezhavas may be explained by the admixture with europeans( especially among thiyyas of kannur and tellicherry), this sample is however from kottayam,but it may be present in nairs too... just check out this link....https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/thread/5VYXMIQ43HVAQTQMXAALM4FJXIKSYZE2/?sort=date

BMG
09-27-2018, 03:32 PM
Low J2 is interesting

L is low in my relatives, less than 5% when i expand to the top 50 on 23andme and J is higher but below 20%

R1a is slightly higher (50-55%) but yes similar more or less

LOL 1 E1b and 1 L Brahmin!

Those E1b ,I2 ,J1 are just wrong predictions since they can't properly predict many H ,F ,C and J haplogroups

parasar
09-27-2018, 04:20 PM
Those E1b ,I2 ,J1 are just wrong predictions since they can't properly predict many H ,F ,C and J haplogroups

Agree with you on the I2 and also the J1, but that E1b should have quite a different signature.

BMG
09-27-2018, 04:25 PM
Agree with you on the I2 and also the J1, but that E1b should have quite a different signature.

He used whit athey predictor which often predicts haplogroup H as J1or E1b1b . Also sometimes J2a is also wrongly predicted as E1b and some C often get predicted as I2 .

Thomas48
09-27-2018, 08:31 PM
G25 for three Knanaya from Family Tree DNA:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Tobin552458_scaled,0.048944,-0.039606,-0.15198,0.083334,-0.075091,0.049643,-0.001645,0.010384,0.028224,0.010752,0.000162,-0.001199,0.000892,0.004129,0.003529,-0.009944,-0.009779,0.000253,0.002137,-0.006128,0.002745,-0.001731,-0.004067,-0.001084,-0.003113
Tobin842108_scaled,0.046667,-0.042652,-0.156505,0.085272,-0.074783,0.049364,0,0.006231,0.029247,0.014214,-0.000812,-0.001199,0.002081,-0.002202,-0.000679,0.008353,-0.00352,0.002027,0.00088,-0.003502,0.00025,-0.003957,0.000493,-0.000241,0.004191
Tobin855115_scaled,0.046667,-0.050776,-0.147831,0.085272,-0.078784,0.051874,0.004465,0.007846,0.027202,0.017 495,-0.003897,-0.000899,-0.0055,0.001239,0.003936,0.001724,-0.001304,0,0.001131,-0.007379,0.002496,-0.004946,0.001725,-0.001325,0.00012

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Tobin552458,0.0043,-0.0039,-0.0403,0.0258,-0.0244,0.0178,-0.0007,0.0045,0.0138,0.0059,0.0001,-0.0008,0.0006,0.003,0.0026,-0.0075,-0.0075,0.0002,0.0017,-0.0049,0.0022,-0.0014,-0.0033,-0.0009,-0.0026
Tobin842108,0.0041,-0.0042,-0.0415,0.0264,-0.0243,0.0177,0,0.0027,0.0143,0.0078,-0.0005,-0.0008,0.0014,-0.0016,-0.0005,0.0063,-0.0027,0.0016,0.0007,-0.0028,0.0002,-0.0032,0.0004,-0.0002,0.0035
Tobin855115,0.0041,-0.005,-0.0392,0.0264,-0.0256,0.0186,0.0019,0.0034,0.0133,0.0096,-0.0024,-0.0006,-0.0037,0.0009,0.0029,0.0013,-0.001,0,0.0009,-0.0059,0.002,-0.004,0.0014,-0.0011,0.0001

[1] "distance%=3.0295"

Tobin552458_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,74
Armenia_EBA,12.8
Barcin_N,3.8
Jarawa,3.6
Yamnaya_Samara,3.2
Ganj_Dareh_N,1.4
Iberomaurusian,1.2

[1] "distance%=2.3244"

Tobin842108_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,73.2
Ganj_Dareh_N,9.8
Barcin_N,8.6
Jarawa,4
Yamnaya_Samara,3.6
Iberomaurusian,0.8

[1] "distance%=1.5448"

Tobin855115_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,76.6
Barcin_N,7.8
Ganj_Dareh_N,6.2
Yamnaya_Samara,4.6
Han,3
Armenia_EBA,1.2
Iberomaurusian,0.6

bmoney
09-28-2018, 01:50 AM
G25 for three Knanaya from Family Tree DNA:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Tobin552458_scaled,0.048944,-0.039606,-0.15198,0.083334,-0.075091,0.049643,-0.001645,0.010384,0.028224,0.010752,0.000162,-0.001199,0.000892,0.004129,0.003529,-0.009944,-0.009779,0.000253,0.002137,-0.006128,0.002745,-0.001731,-0.004067,-0.001084,-0.003113
Tobin842108_scaled,0.046667,-0.042652,-0.156505,0.085272,-0.074783,0.049364,0,0.006231,0.029247,0.014214,-0.000812,-0.001199,0.002081,-0.002202,-0.000679,0.008353,-0.00352,0.002027,0.00088,-0.003502,0.00025,-0.003957,0.000493,-0.000241,0.004191
Tobin855115_scaled,0.046667,-0.050776,-0.147831,0.085272,-0.078784,0.051874,0.004465,0.007846,0.027202,0.017 495,-0.003897,-0.000899,-0.0055,0.001239,0.003936,0.001724,-0.001304,0,0.001131,-0.007379,0.002496,-0.004946,0.001725,-0.001325,0.00012

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Tobin552458,0.0043,-0.0039,-0.0403,0.0258,-0.0244,0.0178,-0.0007,0.0045,0.0138,0.0059,0.0001,-0.0008,0.0006,0.003,0.0026,-0.0075,-0.0075,0.0002,0.0017,-0.0049,0.0022,-0.0014,-0.0033,-0.0009,-0.0026
Tobin842108,0.0041,-0.0042,-0.0415,0.0264,-0.0243,0.0177,0,0.0027,0.0143,0.0078,-0.0005,-0.0008,0.0014,-0.0016,-0.0005,0.0063,-0.0027,0.0016,0.0007,-0.0028,0.0002,-0.0032,0.0004,-0.0002,0.0035
Tobin855115,0.0041,-0.005,-0.0392,0.0264,-0.0256,0.0186,0.0019,0.0034,0.0133,0.0096,-0.0024,-0.0006,-0.0037,0.0009,0.0029,0.0013,-0.001,0,0.0009,-0.0059,0.002,-0.004,0.0014,-0.0011,0.0001

[1] "distance%=3.0295"

Tobin552458_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,74
Armenia_EBA,12.8
Barcin_N,3.8
Jarawa,3.6
Yamnaya_Samara,3.2
Ganj_Dareh_N,1.4
Iberomaurusian,1.2

[1] "distance%=2.3244"

Tobin842108_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,73.2
Ganj_Dareh_N,9.8
Barcin_N,8.6
Jarawa,4
Yamnaya_Samara,3.6
Iberomaurusian,0.8

[1] "distance%=1.5448"

Tobin855115_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,76.6
Barcin_N,7.8
Ganj_Dareh_N,6.2
Yamnaya_Samara,4.6
Han,3
Armenia_EBA,1.2
Iberomaurusian,0.6

Ill have to run this tomorrow as I dont have access to my personal PC until tomorrow afternoon. Ill ask Poi if hes free

vishankar
09-28-2018, 08:21 AM
I agree with you BMG....i must check the I2 individual, with respect to what percentage was predicted....

vishankar
09-28-2018, 01:20 PM
the percentage probablility is 99.2 of I2A... i checked again, but i must agree with BMG, about the doubtful validity of some of these haplogroup probabilities!

vishankar
09-29-2018, 03:17 PM
hi all.. finally got my Y DNA- haplogroup R-M198....by atheys it is haplogroup R1a....my great grandfather( paternal) was a namboothiri, so i guess this does not make us wiser to any unmixed nair y dna haplogroups...maternal side too some embranthiri ( tulu brahmin) admixture maybe there...

BMG
09-29-2018, 05:30 PM
hi all.. finally got my Y DNA- haplogroup R-M198....by atheys it is haplogroup R1a....my great grandfather( paternal) was a namboothiri, so i guess this does not make us wiser to any unmixed nair y dna haplogroups...maternal side too some embranthiri ( tulu brahmin) admixture maybe there...

Hey R1a brother .Welcome tp aR1an fraternity

vishankar
09-29-2018, 07:13 PM
:)...what is R-M198...did a eupedia search very old R1a....any snp to check on ftdna? any further tests i should do ?( when i have some moolah:)

traject
09-29-2018, 09:20 PM
Ill have to run this tomorrow as I dont have access to my personal PC until tomorrow afternoon. Ill ask Poi if hes free

Did the model you ran earlier with the same settings:

26292

Looks like the elevated West Asian admixture around 4-8% in the Knanaya is real with more consistent results around the 7-8% range.

The reduced Brahmin Gujarat percentage suggests to me that the ancestors of the Knanaya may have been a Velama like Dravidian middle caste with some West Asian admixture.

EDIT: For fun, a Neolithic run as well.
26293

Rustyshakelford
09-29-2018, 10:03 PM
Did the model you ran earlier with the same settings:

26292

Looks like the elevated West Asian admixture around 4-8% in the Knanaya is real with more consistent results around the 7-8% range.

The reduced Brahmin Gujarat percentage suggests to me that the ancestors of the Knanaya may have been a Velama like Dravidian middle caste with some West Asian admixture.

EDIT: For fun, a Neolithic run as well.
26293

Any idea why the Paniya is comparatively low? Reduced Brahmin Gujarat seems to be consistent with the Knanaya Harappa scores which are low in both Baloch and NE-Euro compared to syrian christians and other forward caste malayalees.

bmoney
09-30-2018, 06:07 AM
Hey R1a brother .Welcome tp aR1an fraternity

R1a masterrace!

Im 200% sure my mama will come out R1a, wish i could convince him to take it

bmoney
09-30-2018, 06:12 AM
Did the model you ran earlier with the same settings:

26292

Looks like the elevated West Asian admixture around 4-8% in the Knanaya is real with more consistent results around the 7-8% range.

The reduced Brahmin Gujarat percentage suggests to me that the ancestors of the Knanaya may have been a Velama like Dravidian middle caste with some West Asian admixture.

EDIT: For fun, a Neolithic run as well.
26293

Thanks Traject

Do you think that its plausible that there was diffusion of this elite Knanaya group into Syrian Christians as a whole?

You guys score detectable Yemen Jew compared to Hindu forward caste South Indians

vishankar
09-30-2018, 04:56 PM
My line of thinking is that the Knanaya are a highly endogamous group, and any sort of exogamy in their history would be limited to forward caste malayalis, hence the low paniya( substrate for AASI?) ....previously I used to think and be surprised that they had low ne euro and mediterranean but after reading up about the Knanaya, they are possibly of a very pure middle eastern lineage,syrian christians have considerable ancetry from brahmins and nairs hence the similarity in admixture analysis.

Thomas48
09-30-2018, 05:35 PM
My line of thinking is that the Knanaya are a highly endogamous group, and any sort of exogamy in their history would be limited to forward caste malayalis, hence the low paniya( substrate for AASI?) ....previously I used to think and be surprised that they had low ne euro and mediterranean but after reading up about the Knanaya, they are possibly of a very pure middle eastern lineage,syrian christians have considerable ancetry from brahmins and nairs hence the similarity in admixture analysis.

There is actually a rolling theory that the Knanaya were always fluidly endogamous (accepting some exogamous marriage, likely with uppcaste) but they later became strictly endogamous in 1524 when the vassal city state of Kodungalloor was destroyed in a battle with the Samoothiri (Zamorin). The Knanaya actually had their own township and three churches within Kodungalloor but all of it was destroyed in the battle, which many beleive led them to become strictly endogamous and only marry within themselves in order to maintain their identity as they moved to build new settlements in the interior of Kerala. This seems to be backed also by centimorgan relationships, all the Knanaya samples are in the range of 1st-5th cousins and share up to 350 centimorgans with each other.

Interesting to note also that both the Cochin Jews and Knanaya maintain folk songs about the event. The Knanaya song being called “Innu Nee Ngangle Kaivitto Marane” or “Have You Forgotten Us Today Oh Lord?”.

Thomas48
10-03-2018, 05:21 PM
Speculated Knanaya Y-Haplogroups Against M33a2 on 23 and Me:

R-M417 4
R-M512. 1

J-M241. 6
J-M68. 2
J-L25. 2
J-L24. 2

H-Z58. 5
H-M69. 3

L-M357. 11
L-M22. 4
L-M27. 9
L-M2481 1

C-P92. 6
C-K96. 1
C-M130. 1

G-M342. 1

Q-M346. 1
Q-L205. 2

T-M70. 1

O-F8. 1
O-Page23 1

My friend on 23 and Me collected all the Y haplogroup that were speculated to be Knanaya based on the MtDNA being M33a2. Please note that he hasn’t contacted all of these people yet so we’re not 100% sure if they are all Knanaya.

BMG
10-03-2018, 05:36 PM
Speculated Knanaya Y-Haplogroups Against M33a2 on 23 and Me:

R-M417 4
R-M512. 1

J-M241. 6
J-M68. 2
J-L25. 2
J-L24. 2

H-Z58. 5
H-M69. 3

L-M357. 11
L-M22. 4
L-M27. 9
L-M2481 1

C-P92. 6
C-K96. 1
C-M130. 1

G-M342. 1

Q-M346. 1
Q-L205. 2

T-M70. 1

O-F8. 1
O-Page23 1

My friend on 23 and Me collected all the Y haplogroup that were speculated to be Knanaya based on the MtDNA being M33a2. Please note that he hasn’t contacted all of these people yet so we’re not 100% sure if they are all Knanaya.

You have a quite good database there if all of them are knanaya . I request you to contact T-M70 guy . If he is knanaya then that would be a real west asian y-dna signature . Another candidate is G but we need to know the subclade to be sure .
Have you tested for Q subclades . From your STRs i guess you to be Q-L940 . The other L940 is Elengical who is actually L933 a subgroup with L940 . I guess you will be L940+ but L933-

Thomas48
10-04-2018, 03:10 AM
You have a quite good database there if all of them are knanaya . I request you to contact T-M70 guy . If he is knanaya then that would be a real west asian y-dna signature . Another candidate is G but we need to know the subclade to be sure .
Have you tested for Q subclades . From your STRs i guess you to be Q-L940 . The other L940 is Elengical who is actually L933 a subgroup with L940 . I guess you will be L940+ but L933-

Thanks for the analysis, I’ll see if my contact can reach out to him. I was expecting to see more Q, there was many more in the private study done by the geneticist in Kerala. I have not tested for my subclads.

Thomas48
10-07-2018, 06:44 PM
Confirmed, the T and G samples are indeed Knanaya.

Rustyshakelford
10-07-2018, 09:11 PM
Confirmed, the T and G samples are indeed Knanaya.

were all the others confirmed as well?

Thomas48
10-07-2018, 09:47 PM
were all the others confirmed as well?

Not yet.

BMG
10-08-2018, 03:59 PM
Confirmed, the T and G samples are indeed Knanaya.

What is subclade of G
edit: i saw you have mentioned G-M342 which means he is G1 which would be potential west asian ancestor since G1 is rare and is mostly restricted to west asia .Our Assyrian member Humanist is G1 and he would know much more . There is a syrian christian G who is G2b1-M283 which would have reached here through north-west by indo-iranians .

bmoney
10-09-2018, 11:47 PM
Responding to vishankar here as the K9 ASI thread is not the right place for Kerala related discussion


thanks so much....the havyak brahman results were A bit of a shocker....phenotypically our stereotyped indo europeans to the core!..this just goes to show perhaps that y dna is a paternal imprint that is all!...it is autosomal DNA which has a major bearing on our phenotypes.

Y-dna has no impact on phenotype at all. It's just one of the factors (group distribution of y-dna) to consider when trying to understand origins for the group

Youd be interested to know that the R1a-heavy Nairs are intimately linked to Havyak Brahmins and that Bunt-shifted northern Nairs like me were the first settled Nairs and southern non-assimilated Nairs are probably northern Nairs who migrated South.

Copied from a troubled genius who put the pieces together far before genetic evidence came to light

To celebrate his successes, Mayurasharma performed many horse sacrifices and granted 144 villages (known as brahmadeyas) to Brahmins of Talagunda.[15] With an effort to rejuvenate the ancient Brahminic faith and to perform the royal rituals and the related functions of the government, Mayurasharma invited learned Vaidika Brahmins from Ahichatra. The Havyaka Brahmins claim descent from these early Brahmin settlers of the 4th century called the Ahichatra brahmins or the Ahikaru/Havikaru.[16]

Historically, Brahmins of Tulu Nadu and Havyaka Brahmins used the Tigalari script to write Vedas and other Sanskrit works. - bmoney comment: Malayalam script is derived from the Tigalari script!

As mentioned in Keralolpathi, the Karnataka inscriptions clearly mention that Kadamba king Mayuravarma who might have been of Brahmin descent, who ruled the Banavasi, Shimoga area in Karnataka, invited the Brahmins from Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in the year 345 ad. The Bunts of Karnataka and Nairs of Kerala could be the bodyguards recruited by the Namboothiris from the Sudra ranks.Nayara and Menavas are subcastes of the Bunts community of Karnataka clearly indicating Nairs are nothing but a sub clan of Bunts. (Bunt means bonded or enslaved or hired mercenaries).Matriarchy is practised by bunts, called Alia Santhana. The Tulunadu records such as Barkur inscriptions and Gramapadathi attest to the existence of Nairs in tulunadu prior to 800 a.d while kerala does not have any records.

Kerala was overrun many times by the Rashtrakuta forces from 752 ad onwards. Rashtrakutas were of Scythian origins too. Whole of Kerala including the Ay kingdom was overrun as the Rashtrakutas went as far south as Kanyakumari. In 800 ad Namboothiris suddenly appeared in Kerala history while Nairs were mentioned for the first time in 1030 ad in the Thiruvalla shasanam fighting the invading Chola armies.In 949 ad the Chola king, Rajaditya himself was killed by the Rashtrakuta army at Thakkolam, making the Rashtrakutas masters of provinces north of Kaveri. Nairs could have been Rashtrakuta soldiers who occupied kerala in 800ad or little earlier.The second Chera kingdom might have employed Nairs as hired mercenaries.

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies- Bmoney comment: Ezhavas have always maintained that they used to be kings

Accoding to Keralolpathi the Namboothiris of Perunchellur (Thaliparamba) went and met the Aryan king of Arya pura and requested him to send a Cheraman Perumal to rule over Kerala.Krishna Raya send a Banapperuamal alias Vani Perumal with large army of Nairs, 350000 strong, led by Pada Mala Nair as General. The Banapperumal according to Keralolpathi defeated Kerala and started ruling as Cheraman Perumal contesting the original Tamil Cheraman Perumal from his capital at Chitra Koodam at Mooshaka kingdom,later Kolathunadu. This Banapperumal promoted Matriarchy in Kerala and he was the brother of the Tulunad king Kavi Rasa Singha according to Keralolpathi. Keralolpathi also states that Kolathiris are the descendents of this usurping Cheraman perumal from Karnataka.The Cochin kings descend from the offspring of a Kshatriya girl brought from North by the Banapperumal who married a Brahmin. Keralolpathi also states that Krishna Rayar was disturbed when the Banapperumal who was send as a Regent did not return even after 36 years of rule of Kerala. But Banapperumal the pretending Cheraman Perumal gathered an army supported by Manichan (Kunnala Konathiri, the king of Calicut) and Vikkiran possibly two Vellala rulers of Northen Kerala managed to resist the army of Krishna Raya (Rashtrakuta). Keralolpathi also says that the Banapperumal who was a Buddhist converted to Islam and went to Mecca under the guidance of Veda Aliyar a Jonaka(Turkish) preacher. The Krishna Raya could be Rashtra kuta king Krishna III(939 - 967 C.E.) who defeated and occupied Kerala.

In short Around 960 ACE the Namboothiris staying at Thaliparamba in the Chera kingdom invited a Rashtrakuta invading force under a Banapperumal, a prince from Banavasi where originally Brahmins settled on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 ACE. Namboothiris perhaps betrayed the trust of the Tamil Chera kings by inviting a foreign invader.
960 ACE could be the date of the beginning of Namboothiri power in Kerala. It could be the beginning of Matriarchy, Naga and Aryan dominance of Kerala.Matriarchy perhaps spread from Kolathunadu to other southern kingdoms around 1300 ACE as the Nairs replaced the existing Tamil kingdoms of Kerala.
Since Keralolapathi says that Nair army under Padamala Nair was send by the Aryan king of Aryapura (Rashtrakuta Krishna 3)Keralolpathi affirms that Nairs arrived Kerala from north at around 960 ACE. Nairs who might have stayed predominantly at Ezhimalai and Koalathunadu area for another 100 years before spreading southwards. By 1100 ACE Matriarchy was adopted by the Mooshaka kings (Sanskritised name Ezhimalai the Rat Kingdom)of North Kerala.
The importance given by Keralolpathi to Ezhimalai and Kolathunadu clearly indicates that it was the first kingdom occupied by Northern forces of Nairs possibly a subgroup of Bunts of Karnataka.
Keralolpathi describes Chera kings as Arya Kshatriyas and not Tamils indicating that the Cheraman Perumal mentioned in the Keralolpathi is not real Cheraman Perumal of Chera dynasty of Villavar Tamil ruler but the pretending Rashtrakuta invader the Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal the ruler of Kolathunadu

During the Nair dominant era ie 1300 to 1800s the Rashtrakuta people with Northern (Prakrit and Sanskrit speaking )Naga Scythian Nairs and Namboothiris gained ascendency over the Tamil and Dravidian People.The caste system of Kerala Most of the low castes of Kerala during Nair era are Dravidians.The hostility between the indigenous Dravidians against the Rashtrakutas from Karnataka ie Nairs and Namboothiris led to the segegation of the two ethnicities.Dravidians were required to keep distance from the Aryans and Naga Scythian Nairis, which inturn was deviced to ensure the safety of the invaders.The Nairs a North Indian Sudra from Uttarpradesh was elevated as Sath Sudras while the Dravidians who were ruling Kerala more than ten thousand years were reduced to Sudrahood. The resulting Caste Hierarchy in the Nair era (1300 to 1800 ad)

1)The Aryan Namboothiris 2)The Kshatriyas (with a Nair Namboothiri and Rashtrakuta mixture) 3)Naga Scythian Nairs 3)Dravidians 4)Proto Dravidians

While many Dravidian castes such as Villavar the Caste of Chera king himself and Vanavar (another Chera villavar caste) completely disappeared, Illavars (another Villavar caste),Valluvar (astronomers, feudal lords), Panar (Aristocracy in Chera times),Kurumbar(Aristocrats protectors of temples)Koravars(chieftains of Hills)Malayar(princes of hills)were reduced to low caste status. Caste system of Kerala is not based on the Varna Concept because, Nairs themselves were considered Sudras by the Namboothiris. North Indian Buddhist Nagas who are ethnically identical with Nairs were reduced to lower status much earlier to Scythian invasion of India.It is more comparable to Turkish invasion and British rule in which the invaders became Sahebs. Foreigners belonging to foreign religeons including Jews and Syrian Christians and Portuguese were allowed to keep slaves and even private army in Nair era.

At 1300s when all the Dravidian kingdoms of the South India collapsed by the Turkish invasion headed by Malik Kafur. All the Traditional Dravidian aristorcracy was exterminated. Hoysalas,Chola,Pandya nobility became extinct. Nairs were perhaps spared because of their non Dravidian origins. Travancore king Kulasekhara Ravivarma Sangramadheeran did not help his Pandyan relatives during muslim invasion. Instead he occupied the ancient Pandyan capital Tenkasi and established a principality called Mullinadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion he became Tribhuvana chakravarthy master of Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion the Nairs replaced the the Dravidian Patrilineal aristocracy of Kerala including that of Kulasekhara Ravivarma (in 1314) with their own Matrilineal kingdoms and Principalities. Samuthiris ascendency by defeating Porlatathiri followed suit. Matriarchy was widely accepted by the aristocracy leading to the disappearance of the Tamil Patrilineal aristocracy (Ezhimalai,Chera,Pandya and Ay aristocracies). Since the Muslims had exterminated all the Dravidian aristocracies outside Kerala the Dravidians inside kerala could not help either. Gradually the language after 1300s included Prakrit of Nairs and Sanskrit of Namboothiris leading to the evolution of Sanskritised Malayalam. The Dravidian art forms disappeared. The Dravidian temples (Pyramidal stone temples) were replaced by Nepalese architecture ie Pagoda like roofed structures

Some Scythians who mixed with the ruling clans of Rajputana were considered Kshatriyas. But numerous other Scythians and Paradhas or Parthians Pardhi ) and even the Nairi Newars were considered Sudras. Nairs though Scythians were considered Sudras because of the same reason.Most of the Nagas were reduced to Sudra status in the North India may be because of their Buddhist adherence. Even now Nagas form the most of the lower stratum in the North India. Nairs were lucky enough to migrate to South India where they had an upward mobility in the caste system

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies.

His thoughts on Syrian Christian origins:

Namboothiris did not exist at 52 ad and there is no proof that St.Thomas ever landed in Kerala. (Pope Benedict sixteenth) St.Thomas perhaps converted the Syrians at the Parthian kingdom in which the North eastern parts of Pakistan Taxila or TakshaShila was included. St.Thomas built a palace for King.Gondophorous who was the king of Taxila. But there is no other evidence he ever visited Kerala except the Ramban Pattu written during the Portuguese period. In Tharissapalli shasanam of 845 ad, during the period of Ayyanadigal Thiruvadigal, the Syrian Merchants have signed in Hebrew,Pahlavi (Persian) and Kufric (Palestenian).The Syrian Christians are basically Mapillas who married among the local girls from all walks of life. Though they talked Syriac an aramic tongue they might have multiple nationalies including Jewish,Syriac,Palestenian and Persian.During the Portuguese periods (1500s to 1653 ad)they did rally behind the Portuguese and adopted the Roman Catholic religeon while abandoning their Nestorian, Eastern Orthodox religeon of Babylon.After the arrival of Portuguese the Syrians exploded in number from less than twenty thousand to many lakhs. The Semitic, Persian and Portuguese origins makes them tall and well built than most of the natives. Still they are people who have foreign mixture who follow a foreign religeon and never were part of Hindu caste system.The higher status of the Syrians in middle ages was because they were the middlemen in the lucrative pepper trade. But if they convert to Hinduism they may be accorded a place in the Hindu caste Hirarchy

In the ancient Kerala was predominantly Jain / Dravidian religeon was practiced by the Tamil Cheras. Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala.Most of the Hindu priests were of Dravidian origin. St.Thomas probably visited only Syria/Parthia and Taxila in Pakistan where he built a palace for king Gondophorus in the year 52 ad. There is no proof for his visiting Kerala.The Syrian sailors might have carried the St.Thomas legend to Kerala.Benedict 16th recently denied St.Thomas's arrival to Kerala. The popular story about St.Thomas was invented by Portuguese.Mylapore where they had a colony they built a Church with a legend.No such legend precede them. Ramban Pattu written in the Portuguese period is written aroune 1500 to 1700 ad. There is no evidence for the existence of Christianity in Kerala prior to fourth century ad(neither Jewish or Namboothiris converts).No Sangha literature ever talks about the existence of Christians in Kerala.Syrian Christians may descend from the Sassanian sailors who married local girls (Mapilla)between 300 ad to 900 ad.tharisapallisasanam was signed by Syrian christians in Hebrew,Kufric(palestine) and Pahlavi(Persian)indicating they were foreigners.Later period there could be intermixture with the Portuguese between 1498 to 1653(Koonan Kurisu)when they abandoned the Eastern Orthodox Church (Nestorian)in favour of Portuguese Roman Catholicism.

thoughts?

traject
10-10-2018, 12:24 AM
Responding to vishankar here as the K9 ASI thread is not the right place for Kerala related discussion



Y-dna has no impact on phenotype at all. It's just one of the factors (group distribution of y-dna) to consider when trying to understand origins for the group

Youd be interested to know that the R1a-heavy Nairs are intimately linked to Havyak Brahmins and that Bunt-shifted northern Nairs like me were the first settled Nairs and southern non-assimilated Nairs are probably northern Nairs who migrated South.

Copied from a troubled genius who put the pieces together far before genetic evidence came to light

To celebrate his successes, Mayurasharma performed many horse sacrifices and granted 144 villages (known as brahmadeyas) to Brahmins of Talagunda.[15] With an effort to rejuvenate the ancient Brahminic faith and to perform the royal rituals and the related functions of the government, Mayurasharma invited learned Vaidika Brahmins from Ahichatra. The Havyaka Brahmins claim descent from these early Brahmin settlers of the 4th century called the Ahichatra brahmins or the Ahikaru/Havikaru.[16]

Historically, Brahmins of Tulu Nadu and Havyaka Brahmins used the Tigalari script to write Vedas and other Sanskrit works. - bmoney comment: Malayalam script is derived from the Tigalari script!

As mentioned in Keralolpathi, the Karnataka inscriptions clearly mention that Kadamba king Mayuravarma who might have been of Brahmin descent, who ruled the Banavasi, Shimoga area in Karnataka, invited the Brahmins from Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in the year 345 ad. The Bunts of Karnataka and Nairs of Kerala could be the bodyguards recruited by the Namboothiris from the Sudra ranks.Nayara and Menavas are subcastes of the Bunts community of Karnataka clearly indicating Nairs are nothing but a sub clan of Bunts. (Bunt means bonded or enslaved or hired mercenaries).Matriarchy is practised by bunts, called Alia Santhana. The Tulunadu records such as Barkur inscriptions and Gramapadathi attest to the existence of Nairs in tulunadu prior to 800 a.d while kerala does not have any records.

Kerala was overrun many times by the Rashtrakuta forces from 752 ad onwards. Rashtrakutas were of Scythian origins too. Whole of Kerala including the Ay kingdom was overrun as the Rashtrakutas went as far south as Kanyakumari. In 800 ad Namboothiris suddenly appeared in Kerala history while Nairs were mentioned for the first time in 1030 ad in the Thiruvalla shasanam fighting the invading Chola armies.In 949 ad the Chola king, Rajaditya himself was killed by the Rashtrakuta army at Thakkolam, making the Rashtrakutas masters of provinces north of Kaveri. Nairs could have been Rashtrakuta soldiers who occupied kerala in 800ad or little earlier.The second Chera kingdom might have employed Nairs as hired mercenaries.

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies- Bmoney comment: Ezhavas have always maintained that they used to be kings

Accoding to Keralolpathi the Namboothiris of Perunchellur (Thaliparamba) went and met the Aryan king of Arya pura and requested him to send a Cheraman Perumal to rule over Kerala.Krishna Raya send a Banapperuamal alias Vani Perumal with large army of Nairs, 350000 strong, led by Pada Mala Nair as General. The Banapperumal according to Keralolpathi defeated Kerala and started ruling as Cheraman Perumal contesting the original Tamil Cheraman Perumal from his capital at Chitra Koodam at Mooshaka kingdom,later Kolathunadu. This Banapperumal promoted Matriarchy in Kerala and he was the brother of the Tulunad king Kavi Rasa Singha according to Keralolpathi. Keralolpathi also states that Kolathiris are the descendents of this usurping Cheraman perumal from Karnataka.The Cochin kings descend from the offspring of a Kshatriya girl brought from North by the Banapperumal who married a Brahmin. Keralolpathi also states that Krishna Rayar was disturbed when the Banapperumal who was send as a Regent did not return even after 36 years of rule of Kerala. But Banapperumal the pretending Cheraman Perumal gathered an army supported by Manichan (Kunnala Konathiri, the king of Calicut) and Vikkiran possibly two Vellala rulers of Northen Kerala managed to resist the army of Krishna Raya (Rashtrakuta). Keralolpathi also says that the Banapperumal who was a Buddhist converted to Islam and went to Mecca under the guidance of Veda Aliyar a Jonaka(Turkish) preacher. The Krishna Raya could be Rashtra kuta king Krishna III(939 - 967 C.E.) who defeated and occupied Kerala.

In short Around 960 ACE the Namboothiris staying at Thaliparamba in the Chera kingdom invited a Rashtrakuta invading force under a Banapperumal, a prince from Banavasi where originally Brahmins settled on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 ACE. Namboothiris perhaps betrayed the trust of the Tamil Chera kings by inviting a foreign invader.
960 ACE could be the date of the beginning of Namboothiri power in Kerala. It could be the beginning of Matriarchy, Naga and Aryan dominance of Kerala.Matriarchy perhaps spread from Kolathunadu to other southern kingdoms around 1300 ACE as the Nairs replaced the existing Tamil kingdoms of Kerala.
Since Keralolapathi says that Nair army under Padamala Nair was send by the Aryan king of Aryapura (Rashtrakuta Krishna 3)Keralolpathi affirms that Nairs arrived Kerala from north at around 960 ACE. Nairs who might have stayed predominantly at Ezhimalai and Koalathunadu area for another 100 years before spreading southwards. By 1100 ACE Matriarchy was adopted by the Mooshaka kings (Sanskritised name Ezhimalai the Rat Kingdom)of North Kerala.
The importance given by Keralolpathi to Ezhimalai and Kolathunadu clearly indicates that it was the first kingdom occupied by Northern forces of Nairs possibly a subgroup of Bunts of Karnataka.
Keralolpathi describes Chera kings as Arya Kshatriyas and not Tamils indicating that the Cheraman Perumal mentioned in the Keralolpathi is not real Cheraman Perumal of Chera dynasty of Villavar Tamil ruler but the pretending Rashtrakuta invader the Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal the ruler of Kolathunadu

During the Nair dominant era ie 1300 to 1800s the Rashtrakuta people with Northern (Prakrit and Sanskrit speaking )Naga Scythian Nairs and Namboothiris gained ascendency over the Tamil and Dravidian People.The caste system of Kerala Most of the low castes of Kerala during Nair era are Dravidians.The hostility between the indigenous Dravidians against the Rashtrakutas from Karnataka ie Nairs and Namboothiris led to the segegation of the two ethnicities.Dravidians were required to keep distance from the Aryans and Naga Scythian Nairis, which inturn was deviced to ensure the safety of the invaders.The Nairs a North Indian Sudra from Uttarpradesh was elevated as Sath Sudras while the Dravidians who were ruling Kerala more than ten thousand years were reduced to Sudrahood. The resulting Caste Hierarchy in the Nair era (1300 to 1800 ad)

1)The Aryan Namboothiris 2)The Kshatriyas (with a Nair Namboothiri and Rashtrakuta mixture) 3)Naga Scythian Nairs 3)Dravidians 4)Proto Dravidians

While many Dravidian castes such as Villavar the Caste of Chera king himself and Vanavar (another Chera villavar caste) completely disappeared, Illavars (another Villavar caste),Valluvar (astronomers, feudal lords), Panar (Aristocracy in Chera times),Kurumbar(Aristocrats protectors of temples)Koravars(chieftains of Hills)Malayar(princes of hills)were reduced to low caste status. Caste system of Kerala is not based on the Varna Concept because, Nairs themselves were considered Sudras by the Namboothiris. North Indian Buddhist Nagas who are ethnically identical with Nairs were reduced to lower status much earlier to Scythian invasion of India.It is more comparable to Turkish invasion and British rule in which the invaders became Sahebs. Foreigners belonging to foreign religeons including Jews and Syrian Christians and Portuguese were allowed to keep slaves and even private army in Nair era.

At 1300s when all the Dravidian kingdoms of the South India collapsed by the Turkish invasion headed by Malik Kafur. All the Traditional Dravidian aristorcracy was exterminated. Hoysalas,Chola,Pandya nobility became extinct. Nairs were perhaps spared because of their non Dravidian origins. Travancore king Kulasekhara Ravivarma Sangramadheeran did not help his Pandyan relatives during muslim invasion. Instead he occupied the ancient Pandyan capital Tenkasi and established a principality called Mullinadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion he became Tribhuvana chakravarthy master of Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion the Nairs replaced the the Dravidian Patrilineal aristocracy of Kerala including that of Kulasekhara Ravivarma (in 1314) with their own Matrilineal kingdoms and Principalities. Samuthiris ascendency by defeating Porlatathiri followed suit. Matriarchy was widely accepted by the aristocracy leading to the disappearance of the Tamil Patrilineal aristocracy (Ezhimalai,Chera,Pandya and Ay aristocracies). Since the Muslims had exterminated all the Dravidian aristocracies outside Kerala the Dravidians inside kerala could not help either. Gradually the language after 1300s included Prakrit of Nairs and Sanskrit of Namboothiris leading to the evolution of Sanskritised Malayalam. The Dravidian art forms disappeared. The Dravidian temples (Pyramidal stone temples) were replaced by Nepalese architecture ie Pagoda like roofed structures

Some Scythians who mixed with the ruling clans of Rajputana were considered Kshatriyas. But numerous other Scythians and Paradhas or Parthians Pardhi ) and even the Nairi Newars were considered Sudras. Nairs though Scythians were considered Sudras because of the same reason.Most of the Nagas were reduced to Sudra status in the North India may be because of their Buddhist adherence. Even now Nagas form the most of the lower stratum in the North India. Nairs were lucky enough to migrate to South India where they had an upward mobility in the caste system

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies.

His thoughts on Syrian Christian origins:

Namboothiris did not exist at 52 ad and there is no proof that St.Thomas ever landed in Kerala. (Pope Benedict sixteenth) St.Thomas perhaps converted the Syrians at the Parthian kingdom in which the North eastern parts of Pakistan Taxila or TakshaShila was included. St.Thomas built a palace for King.Gondophorous who was the king of Taxila. But there is no other evidence he ever visited Kerala except the Ramban Pattu written during the Portuguese period. In Tharissapalli shasanam of 845 ad, during the period of Ayyanadigal Thiruvadigal, the Syrian Merchants have signed in Hebrew,Pahlavi (Persian) and Kufric (Palestenian).The Syrian Christians are basically Mapillas who married among the local girls from all walks of life. Though they talked Syriac an aramic tongue they might have multiple nationalies including Jewish,Syriac,Palestenian and Persian.During the Portuguese periods (1500s to 1653 ad)they did rally behind the Portuguese and adopted the Roman Catholic religeon while abandoning their Nestorian, Eastern Orthodox religeon of Babylon.After the arrival of Portuguese the Syrians exploded in number from less than twenty thousand to many lakhs. The Semitic, Persian and Portuguese origins makes them tall and well built than most of the natives. Still they are people who have foreign mixture who follow a foreign religeon and never were part of Hindu caste system.The higher status of the Syrians in middle ages was because they were the middlemen in the lucrative pepper trade. But if they convert to Hinduism they may be accorded a place in the Hindu caste Hirarchy

In the ancient Kerala was predominantly Jain / Dravidian religeon was practiced by the Tamil Cheras. Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala.Most of the Hindu priests were of Dravidian origin. St.Thomas probably visited only Syria/Parthia and Taxila in Pakistan where he built a palace for king Gondophorus in the year 52 ad. There is no proof for his visiting Kerala.The Syrian sailors might have carried the St.Thomas legend to Kerala.Benedict 16th recently denied St.Thomas's arrival to Kerala. The popular story about St.Thomas was invented by Portuguese.Mylapore where they had a colony they built a Church with a legend.No such legend precede them. Ramban Pattu written in the Portuguese period is written aroune 1500 to 1700 ad. There is no evidence for the existence of Christianity in Kerala prior to fourth century ad(neither Jewish or Namboothiris converts).No Sangha literature ever talks about the existence of Christians in Kerala.Syrian Christians may descend from the Sassanian sailors who married local girls (Mapilla)between 300 ad to 900 ad.tharisapallisasanam was signed by Syrian christians in Hebrew,Kufric(palestine) and Pahlavi(Persian)indicating they were foreigners.Later period there could be intermixture with the Portuguese between 1498 to 1653(Koonan Kurisu)when they abandoned the Eastern Orthodox Church (Nestorian)in favour of Portuguese Roman Catholicism.

thoughts?



With regards to Syrian Christian origins, I am not particularly married to the St. Thomas hypothesis but I would neither be so quick to deny its validity. And indeed, we have a quite rich archeological record of trade between Rome and the Malabar coast (richer and more important than any Taxila trade I'd wager due to the demand for black pepper). So the story in and of itself is quite possible disregarding the Brahmin element (which is a quite transparent attempt to boost caste status). Similarly, I feel like the author is too quick to speculate on the 9th century stela given it only informs of Christian merchants existing within some kingdom in Kerala and not of any local wives. So, I do think it is quite possible that this whole story is fabricated but whoever posted that appears to be speculative beyond the given evidence themselves.

Rustyshakelford
10-10-2018, 01:50 AM
With regards to Syrian Christian origins, I am not particularly married to the St. Thomas hypothesis but I would neither be so quick to deny its validity. And indeed, we have a quite rich archeological record of trade between Rome and the Malabar coast (richer and more important than any Taxila trade I'd wager due to the demand for black pepper). So the story in and of itself is quite possible disregarding the Brahmin element (which is a quite transparent attempt to boost caste status). Similarly, I feel like the author is too quick to speculate on the 9th century stela given it only informs of Christian merchants existing within some kingdom in Kerala and not of any local wives. So, I do think it is quite possible that this whole story is fabricated but whoever posted that appears to be speculative beyond the given evidence themselves.

Agreed. He seems a bit too prejudiced against the story. It’s true that there’s not much in the way of actual evidence but the malabar tradition is too strong to be dismissed outright. The way he puts it makes it seem like the Syrian Christians were a small insignificant group before the arrival of the Portuguese which is definitely false. Their was something like a hundred churches when the Portuguese arrived so the community had to have been bigger than a mere 20,000.

Rustyshakelford
10-10-2018, 02:11 AM
Responding to vishankar here as the K9 ASI thread is not the right place for Kerala related discussion



Y-dna has no impact on phenotype at all. It's just one of the factors (group distribution of y-dna) to consider when trying to understand origins for the group

Youd be interested to know that the R1a-heavy Nairs are intimately linked to Havyak Brahmins and that Bunt-shifted northern Nairs like me were the first settled Nairs and southern non-assimilated Nairs are probably northern Nairs who migrated South.

Copied from a troubled genius who put the pieces together far before genetic evidence came to light

To celebrate his successes, Mayurasharma performed many horse sacrifices and granted 144 villages (known as brahmadeyas) to Brahmins of Talagunda.[15] With an effort to rejuvenate the ancient Brahminic faith and to perform the royal rituals and the related functions of the government, Mayurasharma invited learned Vaidika Brahmins from Ahichatra. The Havyaka Brahmins claim descent from these early Brahmin settlers of the 4th century called the Ahichatra brahmins or the Ahikaru/Havikaru.[16]

Historically, Brahmins of Tulu Nadu and Havyaka Brahmins used the Tigalari script to write Vedas and other Sanskrit works. - bmoney comment: Malayalam script is derived from the Tigalari script!

As mentioned in Keralolpathi, the Karnataka inscriptions clearly mention that Kadamba king Mayuravarma who might have been of Brahmin descent, who ruled the Banavasi, Shimoga area in Karnataka, invited the Brahmins from Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in the year 345 ad. The Bunts of Karnataka and Nairs of Kerala could be the bodyguards recruited by the Namboothiris from the Sudra ranks.Nayara and Menavas are subcastes of the Bunts community of Karnataka clearly indicating Nairs are nothing but a sub clan of Bunts. (Bunt means bonded or enslaved or hired mercenaries).Matriarchy is practised by bunts, called Alia Santhana. The Tulunadu records such as Barkur inscriptions and Gramapadathi attest to the existence of Nairs in tulunadu prior to 800 a.d while kerala does not have any records.

Kerala was overrun many times by the Rashtrakuta forces from 752 ad onwards. Rashtrakutas were of Scythian origins too. Whole of Kerala including the Ay kingdom was overrun as the Rashtrakutas went as far south as Kanyakumari. In 800 ad Namboothiris suddenly appeared in Kerala history while Nairs were mentioned for the first time in 1030 ad in the Thiruvalla shasanam fighting the invading Chola armies.In 949 ad the Chola king, Rajaditya himself was killed by the Rashtrakuta army at Thakkolam, making the Rashtrakutas masters of provinces north of Kaveri. Nairs could have been Rashtrakuta soldiers who occupied kerala in 800ad or little earlier.The second Chera kingdom might have employed Nairs as hired mercenaries.

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies- Bmoney comment: Ezhavas have always maintained that they used to be kings

Accoding to Keralolpathi the Namboothiris of Perunchellur (Thaliparamba) went and met the Aryan king of Arya pura and requested him to send a Cheraman Perumal to rule over Kerala.Krishna Raya send a Banapperuamal alias Vani Perumal with large army of Nairs, 350000 strong, led by Pada Mala Nair as General. The Banapperumal according to Keralolpathi defeated Kerala and started ruling as Cheraman Perumal contesting the original Tamil Cheraman Perumal from his capital at Chitra Koodam at Mooshaka kingdom,later Kolathunadu. This Banapperumal promoted Matriarchy in Kerala and he was the brother of the Tulunad king Kavi Rasa Singha according to Keralolpathi. Keralolpathi also states that Kolathiris are the descendents of this usurping Cheraman perumal from Karnataka.The Cochin kings descend from the offspring of a Kshatriya girl brought from North by the Banapperumal who married a Brahmin. Keralolpathi also states that Krishna Rayar was disturbed when the Banapperumal who was send as a Regent did not return even after 36 years of rule of Kerala. But Banapperumal the pretending Cheraman Perumal gathered an army supported by Manichan (Kunnala Konathiri, the king of Calicut) and Vikkiran possibly two Vellala rulers of Northen Kerala managed to resist the army of Krishna Raya (Rashtrakuta). Keralolpathi also says that the Banapperumal who was a Buddhist converted to Islam and went to Mecca under the guidance of Veda Aliyar a Jonaka(Turkish) preacher. The Krishna Raya could be Rashtra kuta king Krishna III(939 - 967 C.E.) who defeated and occupied Kerala.

In short Around 960 ACE the Namboothiris staying at Thaliparamba in the Chera kingdom invited a Rashtrakuta invading force under a Banapperumal, a prince from Banavasi where originally Brahmins settled on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 ACE. Namboothiris perhaps betrayed the trust of the Tamil Chera kings by inviting a foreign invader.
960 ACE could be the date of the beginning of Namboothiri power in Kerala. It could be the beginning of Matriarchy, Naga and Aryan dominance of Kerala.Matriarchy perhaps spread from Kolathunadu to other southern kingdoms around 1300 ACE as the Nairs replaced the existing Tamil kingdoms of Kerala.
Since Keralolapathi says that Nair army under Padamala Nair was send by the Aryan king of Aryapura (Rashtrakuta Krishna 3)Keralolpathi affirms that Nairs arrived Kerala from north at around 960 ACE. Nairs who might have stayed predominantly at Ezhimalai and Koalathunadu area for another 100 years before spreading southwards. By 1100 ACE Matriarchy was adopted by the Mooshaka kings (Sanskritised name Ezhimalai the Rat Kingdom)of North Kerala.
The importance given by Keralolpathi to Ezhimalai and Kolathunadu clearly indicates that it was the first kingdom occupied by Northern forces of Nairs possibly a subgroup of Bunts of Karnataka.
Keralolpathi describes Chera kings as Arya Kshatriyas and not Tamils indicating that the Cheraman Perumal mentioned in the Keralolpathi is not real Cheraman Perumal of Chera dynasty of Villavar Tamil ruler but the pretending Rashtrakuta invader the Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal the ruler of Kolathunadu

During the Nair dominant era ie 1300 to 1800s the Rashtrakuta people with Northern (Prakrit and Sanskrit speaking )Naga Scythian Nairs and Namboothiris gained ascendency over the Tamil and Dravidian People.The caste system of Kerala Most of the low castes of Kerala during Nair era are Dravidians.The hostility between the indigenous Dravidians against the Rashtrakutas from Karnataka ie Nairs and Namboothiris led to the segegation of the two ethnicities.Dravidians were required to keep distance from the Aryans and Naga Scythian Nairis, which inturn was deviced to ensure the safety of the invaders.The Nairs a North Indian Sudra from Uttarpradesh was elevated as Sath Sudras while the Dravidians who were ruling Kerala more than ten thousand years were reduced to Sudrahood. The resulting Caste Hierarchy in the Nair era (1300 to 1800 ad)

1)The Aryan Namboothiris 2)The Kshatriyas (with a Nair Namboothiri and Rashtrakuta mixture) 3)Naga Scythian Nairs 3)Dravidians 4)Proto Dravidians

While many Dravidian castes such as Villavar the Caste of Chera king himself and Vanavar (another Chera villavar caste) completely disappeared, Illavars (another Villavar caste),Valluvar (astronomers, feudal lords), Panar (Aristocracy in Chera times),Kurumbar(Aristocrats protectors of temples)Koravars(chieftains of Hills)Malayar(princes of hills)were reduced to low caste status. Caste system of Kerala is not based on the Varna Concept because, Nairs themselves were considered Sudras by the Namboothiris. North Indian Buddhist Nagas who are ethnically identical with Nairs were reduced to lower status much earlier to Scythian invasion of India.It is more comparable to Turkish invasion and British rule in which the invaders became Sahebs. Foreigners belonging to foreign religeons including Jews and Syrian Christians and Portuguese were allowed to keep slaves and even private army in Nair era.

At 1300s when all the Dravidian kingdoms of the South India collapsed by the Turkish invasion headed by Malik Kafur. All the Traditional Dravidian aristorcracy was exterminated. Hoysalas,Chola,Pandya nobility became extinct. Nairs were perhaps spared because of their non Dravidian origins. Travancore king Kulasekhara Ravivarma Sangramadheeran did not help his Pandyan relatives during muslim invasion. Instead he occupied the ancient Pandyan capital Tenkasi and established a principality called Mullinadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion he became Tribhuvana chakravarthy master of Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion the Nairs replaced the the Dravidian Patrilineal aristocracy of Kerala including that of Kulasekhara Ravivarma (in 1314) with their own Matrilineal kingdoms and Principalities. Samuthiris ascendency by defeating Porlatathiri followed suit. Matriarchy was widely accepted by the aristocracy leading to the disappearance of the Tamil Patrilineal aristocracy (Ezhimalai,Chera,Pandya and Ay aristocracies). Since the Muslims had exterminated all the Dravidian aristocracies outside Kerala the Dravidians inside kerala could not help either. Gradually the language after 1300s included Prakrit of Nairs and Sanskrit of Namboothiris leading to the evolution of Sanskritised Malayalam. The Dravidian art forms disappeared. The Dravidian temples (Pyramidal stone temples) were replaced by Nepalese architecture ie Pagoda like roofed structures

Some Scythians who mixed with the ruling clans of Rajputana were considered Kshatriyas. But numerous other Scythians and Paradhas or Parthians Pardhi ) and even the Nairi Newars were considered Sudras. Nairs though Scythians were considered Sudras because of the same reason.Most of the Nagas were reduced to Sudra status in the North India may be because of their Buddhist adherence. Even now Nagas form the most of the lower stratum in the North India. Nairs were lucky enough to migrate to South India where they had an upward mobility in the caste system

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies.

His thoughts on Syrian Christian origins:

Namboothiris did not exist at 52 ad and there is no proof that St.Thomas ever landed in Kerala. (Pope Benedict sixteenth) St.Thomas perhaps converted the Syrians at the Parthian kingdom in which the North eastern parts of Pakistan Taxila or TakshaShila was included. St.Thomas built a palace for King.Gondophorous who was the king of Taxila. But there is no other evidence he ever visited Kerala except the Ramban Pattu written during the Portuguese period. In Tharissapalli shasanam of 845 ad, during the period of Ayyanadigal Thiruvadigal, the Syrian Merchants have signed in Hebrew,Pahlavi (Persian) and Kufric (Palestenian).The Syrian Christians are basically Mapillas who married among the local girls from all walks of life. Though they talked Syriac an aramic tongue they might have multiple nationalies including Jewish,Syriac,Palestenian and Persian.During the Portuguese periods (1500s to 1653 ad)they did rally behind the Portuguese and adopted the Roman Catholic religeon while abandoning their Nestorian, Eastern Orthodox religeon of Babylon.After the arrival of Portuguese the Syrians exploded in number from less than twenty thousand to many lakhs. The Semitic, Persian and Portuguese origins makes them tall and well built than most of the natives. Still they are people who have foreign mixture who follow a foreign religeon and never were part of Hindu caste system.The higher status of the Syrians in middle ages was because they were the middlemen in the lucrative pepper trade. But if they convert to Hinduism they may be accorded a place in the Hindu caste Hirarchy

In the ancient Kerala was predominantly Jain / Dravidian religeon was practiced by the Tamil Cheras. Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala.Most of the Hindu priests were of Dravidian origin. St.Thomas probably visited only Syria/Parthia and Taxila in Pakistan where he built a palace for king Gondophorus in the year 52 ad. There is no proof for his visiting Kerala.The Syrian sailors might have carried the St.Thomas legend to Kerala.Benedict 16th recently denied St.Thomas's arrival to Kerala. The popular story about St.Thomas was invented by Portuguese.Mylapore where they had a colony they built a Church with a legend.No such legend precede them. Ramban Pattu written in the Portuguese period is written aroune 1500 to 1700 ad. There is no evidence for the existence of Christianity in Kerala prior to fourth century ad(neither Jewish or Namboothiris converts).No Sangha literature ever talks about the existence of Christians in Kerala.Syrian Christians may descend from the Sassanian sailors who married local girls (Mapilla)between 300 ad to 900 ad.tharisapallisasanam was signed by Syrian christians in Hebrew,Kufric(palestine) and Pahlavi(Persian)indicating they were foreigners.Later period there could be intermixture with the Portuguese between 1498 to 1653(Koonan Kurisu)when they abandoned the Eastern Orthodox Church (Nestorian)in favour of Portuguese Roman Catholicism.

thoughts?

Nairs are an interesting group. So many different subcastes spread throughout Kerala and they varied widely in terms of status. I’m guessing malabar nairs will have more NE euro than the southern ones. I posted a nair Harappa here a while back and she was from Pathanamthitta, that only only had like 1.5 NE euro which is far below yours and vishankers.

vishankar
10-10-2018, 03:30 AM
hi..
I wish to apologise for posting all those y dna results in the wrong thread!...will repost here!

bmoney
10-10-2018, 03:38 AM
Nairs are an interesting group. So many different subcastes spread throughout Kerala and they varied widely in terms of status. I’m guessing malabar nairs will have more NE euro than the southern ones. I posted a nair Harappa here a while back and she was from Pathanamthitta, that only only had like 1.5 NE euro which is far below yours and vishankers.

BMG showed me a Nair from Payyanur with low NE Euro, so I think Nairs on the whole irrespective of region assimilated others into the fold, this is obviously escalated in the south.

Kerala regions are not that different from each other except that Tulu spillover in terms of genetics exists in the north. ie Thiyya/Ezhava Dravidians were in control from North Kerala to the South and these people didn't go anywhere when Brahmins/Nairs came. In Kannur there is a Thiyya god called Muthappan who is clearly of non-Aryan extraction, and Muthappan is probably one of the most iconic deities in the region

In regards to Tulu Bunts, Kerala is where the tribal kin-clan Bunts actually became a caste and title (soldier) as the invading Rashtrakuta (fake second Cheras) made it a status symbol. The same poster said that 'Pannikar' was a pre-Nair title (probably Ezhava as they also use this title) adopted or assimilated into the Nair fold, so there was some form of syncretism when Nair became a caste able to be inherited by whoever the king chooses.

Also, Nairs were always Shudras to Brahmins even in Tulu Nad and this is likely a status brought from Ahikshetra along with the bizarre matrilineal system which does not exist among South Kerala Ezhavas

Modern day Bunts do not consider the Nairs kin as Nairs are a caste and not an ethnic group in Kerala so we have become unfamiliar to them

Regarding the guys Syrian Christian theories, he doesn't seem to be too familiar with the group.

Interestingly my mtdna M30 is found at high levels in Tharus (a low caste from the Indo-Nepalese plains) and a Nepali Brahmin user in this forum shares it with me

bmoney
10-10-2018, 03:51 AM
Analyse this guys, lots of juicy Kerala relevant y-dna data. Thanks again @vishankar:

http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/137868/10/10_chapter%205.pdf

My first thoughts are wow, the y-hgs are not predicatble at all

Super low R1a for Nairs and Brahmins (21% and 33%)

High H1 and L-M20 for Kerala Brahmins (22% each)

Both the Nairs and Brahmins are sampled from Kannur

Toda people have 0% R1a

vishankar
10-10-2018, 12:22 PM
exactly bmoney....the todas are pastoral people , with many anthropologists inclining towards a central asian / iranian origin for them,so no R1a....i think we cannot designate R1a as hallmark of steppe origin!... castes like mogaveera ( corresponding to mukkuvan of kerala have 19%)...will mitochondrial dna give any clue?

vishankar
10-10-2018, 12:41 PM
for the above study link given by bmoney, here is the appendix on page 3 minor populations Y haplogroups are given....http://http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/137868/15/15_appendix.pdf

vishankar
10-10-2018, 12:46 PM
reposting the relevant page of that previous document as the link may not be accesible

Thomas48
10-10-2018, 04:59 PM
Responding to vishankar here as the K9 ASI thread is not the right place for Kerala related discussion



Y-dna has no impact on phenotype at all. It's just one of the factors (group distribution of y-dna) to consider when trying to understand origins for the group

Youd be interested to know that the R1a-heavy Nairs are intimately linked to Havyak Brahmins and that Bunt-shifted northern Nairs like me were the first settled Nairs and southern non-assimilated Nairs are probably northern Nairs who migrated South.

Copied from a troubled genius who put the pieces together far before genetic evidence came to light

To celebrate his successes, Mayurasharma performed many horse sacrifices and granted 144 villages (known as brahmadeyas) to Brahmins of Talagunda.[15] With an effort to rejuvenate the ancient Brahminic faith and to perform the royal rituals and the related functions of the government, Mayurasharma invited learned Vaidika Brahmins from Ahichatra. The Havyaka Brahmins claim descent from these early Brahmin settlers of the 4th century called the Ahichatra brahmins or the Ahikaru/Havikaru.[16]

Historically, Brahmins of Tulu Nadu and Havyaka Brahmins used the Tigalari script to write Vedas and other Sanskrit works. - bmoney comment: Malayalam script is derived from the Tigalari script!

As mentioned in Keralolpathi, the Karnataka inscriptions clearly mention that Kadamba king Mayuravarma who might have been of Brahmin descent, who ruled the Banavasi, Shimoga area in Karnataka, invited the Brahmins from Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in the year 345 ad. The Bunts of Karnataka and Nairs of Kerala could be the bodyguards recruited by the Namboothiris from the Sudra ranks.Nayara and Menavas are subcastes of the Bunts community of Karnataka clearly indicating Nairs are nothing but a sub clan of Bunts. (Bunt means bonded or enslaved or hired mercenaries).Matriarchy is practised by bunts, called Alia Santhana. The Tulunadu records such as Barkur inscriptions and Gramapadathi attest to the existence of Nairs in tulunadu prior to 800 a.d while kerala does not have any records.

Kerala was overrun many times by the Rashtrakuta forces from 752 ad onwards. Rashtrakutas were of Scythian origins too. Whole of Kerala including the Ay kingdom was overrun as the Rashtrakutas went as far south as Kanyakumari. In 800 ad Namboothiris suddenly appeared in Kerala history while Nairs were mentioned for the first time in 1030 ad in the Thiruvalla shasanam fighting the invading Chola armies.In 949 ad the Chola king, Rajaditya himself was killed by the Rashtrakuta army at Thakkolam, making the Rashtrakutas masters of provinces north of Kaveri. Nairs could have been Rashtrakuta soldiers who occupied kerala in 800ad or little earlier.The second Chera kingdom might have employed Nairs as hired mercenaries.

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies- Bmoney comment: Ezhavas have always maintained that they used to be kings

Accoding to Keralolpathi the Namboothiris of Perunchellur (Thaliparamba) went and met the Aryan king of Arya pura and requested him to send a Cheraman Perumal to rule over Kerala.Krishna Raya send a Banapperuamal alias Vani Perumal with large army of Nairs, 350000 strong, led by Pada Mala Nair as General. The Banapperumal according to Keralolpathi defeated Kerala and started ruling as Cheraman Perumal contesting the original Tamil Cheraman Perumal from his capital at Chitra Koodam at Mooshaka kingdom,later Kolathunadu. This Banapperumal promoted Matriarchy in Kerala and he was the brother of the Tulunad king Kavi Rasa Singha according to Keralolpathi. Keralolpathi also states that Kolathiris are the descendents of this usurping Cheraman perumal from Karnataka.The Cochin kings descend from the offspring of a Kshatriya girl brought from North by the Banapperumal who married a Brahmin. Keralolpathi also states that Krishna Rayar was disturbed when the Banapperumal who was send as a Regent did not return even after 36 years of rule of Kerala. But Banapperumal the pretending Cheraman Perumal gathered an army supported by Manichan (Kunnala Konathiri, the king of Calicut) and Vikkiran possibly two Vellala rulers of Northen Kerala managed to resist the army of Krishna Raya (Rashtrakuta). Keralolpathi also says that the Banapperumal who was a Buddhist converted to Islam and went to Mecca under the guidance of Veda Aliyar a Jonaka(Turkish) preacher. The Krishna Raya could be Rashtra kuta king Krishna III(939 - 967 C.E.) who defeated and occupied Kerala.

In short Around 960 ACE the Namboothiris staying at Thaliparamba in the Chera kingdom invited a Rashtrakuta invading force under a Banapperumal, a prince from Banavasi where originally Brahmins settled on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 ACE. Namboothiris perhaps betrayed the trust of the Tamil Chera kings by inviting a foreign invader.
960 ACE could be the date of the beginning of Namboothiri power in Kerala. It could be the beginning of Matriarchy, Naga and Aryan dominance of Kerala.Matriarchy perhaps spread from Kolathunadu to other southern kingdoms around 1300 ACE as the Nairs replaced the existing Tamil kingdoms of Kerala.
Since Keralolapathi says that Nair army under Padamala Nair was send by the Aryan king of Aryapura (Rashtrakuta Krishna 3)Keralolpathi affirms that Nairs arrived Kerala from north at around 960 ACE. Nairs who might have stayed predominantly at Ezhimalai and Koalathunadu area for another 100 years before spreading southwards. By 1100 ACE Matriarchy was adopted by the Mooshaka kings (Sanskritised name Ezhimalai the Rat Kingdom)of North Kerala.
The importance given by Keralolpathi to Ezhimalai and Kolathunadu clearly indicates that it was the first kingdom occupied by Northern forces of Nairs possibly a subgroup of Bunts of Karnataka.
Keralolpathi describes Chera kings as Arya Kshatriyas and not Tamils indicating that the Cheraman Perumal mentioned in the Keralolpathi is not real Cheraman Perumal of Chera dynasty of Villavar Tamil ruler but the pretending Rashtrakuta invader the Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal the ruler of Kolathunadu

During the Nair dominant era ie 1300 to 1800s the Rashtrakuta people with Northern (Prakrit and Sanskrit speaking )Naga Scythian Nairs and Namboothiris gained ascendency over the Tamil and Dravidian People.The caste system of Kerala Most of the low castes of Kerala during Nair era are Dravidians.The hostility between the indigenous Dravidians against the Rashtrakutas from Karnataka ie Nairs and Namboothiris led to the segegation of the two ethnicities.Dravidians were required to keep distance from the Aryans and Naga Scythian Nairis, which inturn was deviced to ensure the safety of the invaders.The Nairs a North Indian Sudra from Uttarpradesh was elevated as Sath Sudras while the Dravidians who were ruling Kerala more than ten thousand years were reduced to Sudrahood. The resulting Caste Hierarchy in the Nair era (1300 to 1800 ad)

1)The Aryan Namboothiris 2)The Kshatriyas (with a Nair Namboothiri and Rashtrakuta mixture) 3)Naga Scythian Nairs 3)Dravidians 4)Proto Dravidians

While many Dravidian castes such as Villavar the Caste of Chera king himself and Vanavar (another Chera villavar caste) completely disappeared, Illavars (another Villavar caste),Valluvar (astronomers, feudal lords), Panar (Aristocracy in Chera times),Kurumbar(Aristocrats protectors of temples)Koravars(chieftains of Hills)Malayar(princes of hills)were reduced to low caste status. Caste system of Kerala is not based on the Varna Concept because, Nairs themselves were considered Sudras by the Namboothiris. North Indian Buddhist Nagas who are ethnically identical with Nairs were reduced to lower status much earlier to Scythian invasion of India.It is more comparable to Turkish invasion and British rule in which the invaders became Sahebs. Foreigners belonging to foreign religeons including Jews and Syrian Christians and Portuguese were allowed to keep slaves and even private army in Nair era.

At 1300s when all the Dravidian kingdoms of the South India collapsed by the Turkish invasion headed by Malik Kafur. All the Traditional Dravidian aristorcracy was exterminated. Hoysalas,Chola,Pandya nobility became extinct. Nairs were perhaps spared because of their non Dravidian origins. Travancore king Kulasekhara Ravivarma Sangramadheeran did not help his Pandyan relatives during muslim invasion. Instead he occupied the ancient Pandyan capital Tenkasi and established a principality called Mullinadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion he became Tribhuvana chakravarthy master of Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion the Nairs replaced the the Dravidian Patrilineal aristocracy of Kerala including that of Kulasekhara Ravivarma (in 1314) with their own Matrilineal kingdoms and Principalities. Samuthiris ascendency by defeating Porlatathiri followed suit. Matriarchy was widely accepted by the aristocracy leading to the disappearance of the Tamil Patrilineal aristocracy (Ezhimalai,Chera,Pandya and Ay aristocracies). Since the Muslims had exterminated all the Dravidian aristocracies outside Kerala the Dravidians inside kerala could not help either. Gradually the language after 1300s included Prakrit of Nairs and Sanskrit of Namboothiris leading to the evolution of Sanskritised Malayalam. The Dravidian art forms disappeared. The Dravidian temples (Pyramidal stone temples) were replaced by Nepalese architecture ie Pagoda like roofed structures

Some Scythians who mixed with the ruling clans of Rajputana were considered Kshatriyas. But numerous other Scythians and Paradhas or Parthians Pardhi ) and even the Nairi Newars were considered Sudras. Nairs though Scythians were considered Sudras because of the same reason.Most of the Nagas were reduced to Sudra status in the North India may be because of their Buddhist adherence. Even now Nagas form the most of the lower stratum in the North India. Nairs were lucky enough to migrate to South India where they had an upward mobility in the caste system

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies.

His thoughts on Syrian Christian origins:

Namboothiris did not exist at 52 ad and there is no proof that St.Thomas ever landed in Kerala. (Pope Benedict sixteenth) St.Thomas perhaps converted the Syrians at the Parthian kingdom in which the North eastern parts of Pakistan Taxila or TakshaShila was included. St.Thomas built a palace for King.Gondophorous who was the king of Taxila. But there is no other evidence he ever visited Kerala except the Ramban Pattu written during the Portuguese period. In Tharissapalli shasanam of 845 ad, during the period of Ayyanadigal Thiruvadigal, the Syrian Merchants have signed in Hebrew,Pahlavi (Persian) and Kufric (Palestenian).The Syrian Christians are basically Mapillas who married among the local girls from all walks of life. Though they talked Syriac an aramic tongue they might have multiple nationalies including Jewish,Syriac,Palestenian and Persian.During the Portuguese periods (1500s to 1653 ad)they did rally behind the Portuguese and adopted the Roman Catholic religeon while abandoning their Nestorian, Eastern Orthodox religeon of Babylon.After the arrival of Portuguese the Syrians exploded in number from less than twenty thousand to many lakhs. The Semitic, Persian and Portuguese origins makes them tall and well built than most of the natives. Still they are people who have foreign mixture who follow a foreign religeon and never were part of Hindu caste system.The higher status of the Syrians in middle ages was because they were the middlemen in the lucrative pepper trade. But if they convert to Hinduism they may be accorded a place in the Hindu caste Hirarchy

In the ancient Kerala was predominantly Jain / Dravidian religeon was practiced by the Tamil Cheras. Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala.Most of the Hindu priests were of Dravidian origin. St.Thomas probably visited only Syria/Parthia and Taxila in Pakistan where he built a palace for king Gondophorus in the year 52 ad. There is no proof for his visiting Kerala.The Syrian sailors might have carried the St.Thomas legend to Kerala.Benedict 16th recently denied St.Thomas's arrival to Kerala. The popular story about St.Thomas was invented by Portuguese.Mylapore where they had a colony they built a Church with a legend.No such legend precede them. Ramban Pattu written in the Portuguese period is written aroune 1500 to 1700 ad. There is no evidence for the existence of Christianity in Kerala prior to fourth century ad(neither Jewish or Namboothiris converts).No Sangha literature ever talks about the existence of Christians in Kerala.Syrian Christians may descend from the Sassanian sailors who married local girls (Mapilla)between 300 ad to 900 ad.tharisapallisasanam was signed by Syrian christians in Hebrew,Kufric(palestine) and Pahlavi(Persian)indicating they were foreigners.Later period there could be intermixture with the Portuguese between 1498 to 1653(Koonan Kurisu)when they abandoned the Eastern Orthodox Church (Nestorian)in favour of Portuguese Roman Catholicism.

thoughts?

There is actually evidence of Christians in Kerala since the 4th century. Numerous Roman writers such as Ambrose of Milan and Eusebius write about them during this period. At the moment it seems that many Syrian Christians are turning to the story that Syrian Christian merchants from the Middle East brought their St. Thomas tradition with them to India, hence it became intermingled with Keralas history. The bandwagon jump to this in the current age is because the bones of who they beleive to be St. Thomas were dated to be at least 50 years after St. Thomas’ death. The story of St. Thomas is also fully portrayed in the song text of Margam Kali, which word for word exhibits the Gnostic Acts of Thomas which talks about the whole Gondophorus story. The big difference however is that the Gnostic version puts St. Thomas somewhere in Northern India or Pakistan, Margam Kali puts him in Kerala. In Margam Kali, Gondophorus is instead a certain Perumal or the other. Margam Kali is said to be ancient (however we can’t date this), the first true record comes from the Portuguese Era, when the Knanaya priest Anjilimootil Ittythomman wrote down for the first time the text of Margam Kali. Some historians beleive that Ittythomman himself created or substantially edited Margam Kali and placed St. Thomas in Kerala instead of what the Gnostic Acts state of him being in the kingdom of Gondophorus. Itty Thomman was supposedly a very learned priest knowing many histories and languages, so this idea is not impossible. At the same time the diction of Margam Kali is truly ancient, with Tamil being highly prevalent in the song text that was used way before the 15/16th century but instead sometime between the 9th and 13th century Kerala.

BMG
10-10-2018, 05:33 PM
BMG showed me a Nair from Payyanur with low NE Euro, so I think Nairs on the whole irrespective of region assimilated others into the fold, this is obviously escalated in the south.

Kerala regions are not that different from each other except that Tulu spillover in terms of genetics exists in the north. ie Thiyya/Ezhava Dravidians were in control from North Kerala to the South and these people didn't go anywhere when Brahmins/Nairs came. In Kannur there is a Thiyya god called Muthappan who is clearly of non-Aryan extraction, and Muthappan is probably one of the most iconic deities in the region

In regards to Tulu Bunts, Kerala is where the tribal kin-clan Bunts actually became a caste and title (soldier) as the invading Rashtrakuta (fake second Cheras) made it a status symbol. The same poster said that 'Pannikar' was a pre-Nair title (probably Ezhava as they also use this title) adopted or assimilated into the Nair fold, so there was some form of syncretism when Nair became a caste able to be inherited by whoever the king chooses.

Also, Nairs were always Shudras to Brahmins even in Tulu Nad and this is likely a status brought from Ahikshetra along with the bizarre matrilineal system which does not exist among South Kerala Ezhavas

Modern day Bunts do not consider the Nairs kin as Nairs are a caste and not an ethnic group in Kerala so we have become unfamiliar to them

Regarding the guys Syrian Christian theories, he doesn't seem to be too familiar with the group.

Interestingly my mtdna M30 is found at high levels in Tharus (a low caste from the Indo-Nepalese plains) and a Nepali Brahmin user in this forum shares it with me

I think nambiars would score similar to you bmoney . Didn't they kept a seperate identity from nairs and considered themselves higher than nairs ? . Also where do the caste like poduval ,nambeesan and warriers come in . Are they subacstes of nairs or just different titles or different caste altogether ?

BMG
10-10-2018, 06:05 PM
There is actually evidence of Christians in Kerala since the 4th century. Numerous Roman writers such as Ambrose of Milan and Eusebius write about them during this period. At the moment it seems that many Syrian Christians are turning to the story that Syrian Christian merchants from the Middle East brought their St. Thomas tradition with them to India, hence it became intermingled with Keralas history. The bandwagon jump to this in the current age is because the bones of who they beleive to be St. Thomas were dated to be at least 50 years after St. Thomas’ death. The story of St. Thomas is also fully portrayed in the song text of Margam Kali, which word for word exhibits the Gnostic Acts of Thomas which talks about the whole Gondophorus story. The big difference however is that the Gnostic version puts St. Thomas somewhere in Northern India or Pakistan, Margam Kali puts him in Kerala. In Margam Kali, Gondophorus is instead a certain Perumal or the other. Margam Kali is said to be ancient (however we can’t date this), the first true record comes from the Portuguese Era, when the Knanaya priest Anjilimootil Ittythomman wrote down for the first time the text of Margam Kali. Some historians beleive that Ittythomman himself created or substantially edited Margam Kali and placed St. Thomas in Kerala instead of what the Gnostic Acts state of him being in the kingdom of Gondophorus. Itty Thomman was supposedly a very learned priest knowing many histories and languages, so this idea is not impossible. At the same time the diction of Margam Kali is truly ancient, with Tamil being highly prevalent in the song text that was used way before the 15/16th century but instead sometime between the 9th and 13th century Kerala.

The vailidty of the the margam kali songs is not more than aithiyamala . The creation of the margam kali songs should be seen in the context of the time as the native christians tried to claim older traditions to distance themselves from portugese who was trying to say we were following wrong forms of christianity . I personally see St thomas story to be a legend especially the brahmin conversion part . Historicity can't be verified but still probability of the legend to be true is extremely less . But it can't be used as an excuse to deny the existence of early syrian christians which become a important community at least by 9th century (By this i don't mean the actual numbers were high but their presence could be felt )

Rustyshakelford
10-10-2018, 07:02 PM
BMG showed me a Nair from Payyanur with low NE Euro, so I think Nairs on the whole irrespective of region assimilated others into the fold, this is obviously escalated in the south.

Kerala regions are not that different from each other except that Tulu spillover in terms of genetics exists in the north. ie Thiyya/Ezhava Dravidians were in control from North Kerala to the South and these people didn't go anywhere when Brahmins/Nairs came. In Kannur there is a Thiyya god called Muthappan who is clearly of non-Aryan extraction, and Muthappan is probably one of the most iconic deities in the region

In regards to Tulu Bunts, Kerala is where the tribal kin-clan Bunts actually became a caste and title (soldier) as the invading Rashtrakuta (fake second Cheras) made it a status symbol. The same poster said that 'Pannikar' was a pre-Nair title (probably Ezhava as they also use this title) adopted or assimilated into the Nair fold, so there was some form of syncretism when Nair became a caste able to be inherited by whoever the king chooses.

Also, Nairs were always Shudras to Brahmins even in Tulu Nad and this is likely a status brought from Ahikshetra along with the bizarre matrilineal system which does not exist among South Kerala Ezhavas

Modern day Bunts do not consider the Nairs kin as Nairs are a caste and not an ethnic group in Kerala so we have become unfamiliar to them

Regarding the guys Syrian Christian theories, he doesn't seem to be too familiar with the group.

Interestingly my mtdna M30 is found at high levels in Tharus (a low caste from the Indo-Nepalese plains) and a Nepali Brahmin user in this forum shares it with me

Given how fluid caste was back then do you think assimilation into the nairs was restricted to martial classes? I’m curious because some subcastes like vilakithala and veluthadathu nairs traditionally perform menial labor. Do you know if groups like this also had a martial past? And if not why do you think they were assimilated?
Panicker title seems to be used by Syrian Christians too, I used to know some of them growing up and they were malankara orthodox so probably from central/south Kerala. I think some of these families were probably nair converts who retained the title. Syrian Christians were also largely employed as soldiers so it makes sense why there was such close affinity between both groups.

Rustyshakelford
10-10-2018, 07:03 PM
edit: double post

vishankar
10-10-2018, 07:21 PM
hi BMG...
poduval in payyanur is different from ambalavasi poduval of cochin, thrissur etc, nambeesans and warriers are ambalavasis,supposed to be higher than nairs and just below nambuthiris,as far as i know regular marriage alliances are present only between payyanur poduvals and nambiars, it used to be a sort of hypergamy in the past with poduval males marrying nambiar females/ nair females,but nowadays even their females wed nambiars/ nairs.
the north malabar nambiars would not traditionally wed south of the korapuzha river, on grounds of inferiority of the nairs,but this is all past history!
In north malabar(kannur) the nair surname is taken up by vaniya, maniyani and such communities, whereas the true-blue nair is the nambiar, that is what I have been given to
understand, in kasargod however the surname nair is usually taken by genuine nairs.

vishankar
10-10-2018, 07:22 PM
hi BMG...
poduval in payyanur is different from ambalavasi poduval of cochin, thrissur etc, nambeesans and warriers are ambalavasis,supposed to be higher than nairs and just below nambuthiris,as far as i know regular marriage alliances are present only between payyanur poduvals and nambiars, it used to be a sort of hypergamy in the past with poduval males marrying nambiar females/ nair females,but nowadays even their females wed nambiars/ nairs.
the north malabar nambiars would not traditionally wed south of the korapuzha river, on grounds of inferiority of the nairs,but this is all past history!
In north malabar(kannur) the nair surname is taken up by vaniya, maniyani and such communities, whereas the true-blue nair is the nambiar, that is what I have been given to
understand, in kasargod however the surname nair is usually taken by genuine nairs.

bmoney
10-10-2018, 11:19 PM
exactly bmoney....the todas are pastoral people , with many anthropologists inclining towards a central asian / iranian origin for them,so no R1a....i think we cannot designate R1a as hallmark of steppe origin!... castes like mogaveera ( corresponding to mukkuvan of kerala have 19%)...will mitochondrial dna give any clue?

I don't believe the Toda are steppe people at all, rather that they are some form high Iran_N variant of IVC descent due to their J levels and high incidence of one of the light-skin alleles (nearly 100%)

Their religion has parallel to other J civs like Minoans as well as the J2a heavy pastoralist Gujarati Maldharis who are also in the first paper vishankar linked.

They are very different to their Nilgiri neighbours who are similar to the Irula (ASI; mix of AASI and IVCp moving south)

The supplementary table of minor pops vishankar linked. I believe the R1a is undercooked and a lot of the R-M207 (basal R) is probably R1a like for the Brahmin:

https://i.imgur.com/GsweU1Y.png

R2 levels are high across the board which is more in line with what i expect

Main table:

https://i.imgur.com/JJpFbnN.png

bmoney
10-10-2018, 11:28 PM
exactly bmoney....the todas are pastoral people , with many anthropologists inclining towards a central asian / iranian origin for them,so no R1a....i think we cannot designate R1a as hallmark of steppe origin!... castes like mogaveera ( corresponding to mukkuvan of kerala have 19%)...will mitochondrial dna give any clue?

R1a is widespread in South India, probably an artifact of multiple migrations and the Ashokan period.

All R1a-z93 in South Asia came from Central Asia and spoke Indo-Aryan languages initially

So even the Kerala Dalit who is R1a had at least one Central Asian Indo-Aryan ancestor, however diluted in the autosome the ancestor is

bmoney
10-10-2018, 11:37 PM
I think nambiars would score similar to you bmoney . Didn't they kept a seperate identity from nairs and considered themselves higher than nairs ? . Also where do the caste like poduval ,nambeesan and warriers come in . Are they subacstes of nairs or just different titles or different caste altogether ?

Nambiar/Nayanar is a heritable title for landlord clan type Nairs in North Malabar, yes it is considered a higher title than Nair and used to separate themselves, however no denies that the origin is the same as with other Nairs (from the same region).

Though generally Nambiars/Nayanars marry other Nambiar/Nayanars

You won't be able to tell ethnic mix from this title unless the person belongs to a large well known clan (named after the Tharavadu)

There are also plenty of landless/less landed Nambiars in the region, for example our domestic helper was also a Nambiar (i was shocked to know) and my Grandfather told me it would be an insult to her if I suggested otherwise

Nair is also used as a title here though less common compared to South Kerala

Poduval, Nambiar (Ambalavasi), Warrier are Ambalavasis who consider themselves higher than Nairs and call themselves Brahmins (they are not)

But Nambiars do not intermarry with them and do not consider them of equal status as I have told vishankar. Every story has 2 sides in Keralas ridiculous caste system!

They are considered upper caste however

bmoney
10-10-2018, 11:57 PM
Given how fluid caste was back then do you think assimilation into the nairs was restricted to martial classes? I’m curious because some subcastes like vilakithala and veluthadathu nairs traditionally perform menial labor. Do you know if groups like this also had a martial past? And if not why do you think they were assimilated?
Panicker title seems to be used by Syrian Christians too, I used to know some of them growing up and they were malankara orthodox so probably from central/south Kerala. I think some of these families were probably nair converts who retained the title. Syrian Christians were also largely employed as soldiers so it makes sense why there was such close affinity between both groups.

Im not very aware of the history of this section but this seems to be more common in Southern Kerala.

Yes there are non-martial barber and labourer subcastes in the caste/community who probably never had a martial history, though soldiers forming the majority of the Nair caste is what I have read.

There are even assimilated groups such as the Tamil Padam Nairs. Again when Nair became a title it stopped becoming genetic unit like for the Jatts of North India for example.

Here is why the title was used for self-promotion:

The revisionist argument, whose supporters also include Joan Mencher, proposes a mixed system. The larger divisions were indeed subcastes, as they demonstrated a stability of status, longevity and geographic spread; however, the smaller divisions were fluid, often relatively short-lived and narrow in geographic placement. These divisions, such as the Veluttetan, Chakkala and Vilakkittalavan, would take titles such as Nair or Nayar in order to boost their social status, as was also the practice with other castes elsewhere, although they were often not recognised as caste members by the higher ranks and other Nairs would not marry with them. It has also been postulated that some exogamous families came together to form small divisions as a consequence of shared work experiences with, for example, a local Nambudiri or Nair chief. These groups then became an endogamous subdivision, in a similar manner to developments of subdivisions in other castes elsewhere.[42] The more subdivisions that were created, the more opportunity there was for social mobility within the Nair community as a whole.

There was also the other side where some Nairs who were basically fiefdom holders employed soldier Nairs and were not involved in military activities themselves. Zamorins are the most famous example

Panikkar likely predated Nairs and Syrian Christians, it was likely an Ezhava martial kalaripayyatt title adopted/assimilated by Nairs/Syrian Christians. Pillai sounds like that too due to its Tamil nature

bmoney
10-11-2018, 12:03 AM
hi BMG...
poduval in payyanur is different from ambalavasi poduval of cochin, thrissur etc, nambeesans and warriers are ambalavasis,supposed to be higher than nairs and just below nambuthiris,as far as i know regular marriage alliances are present only between payyanur poduvals and nambiars, it used to be a sort of hypergamy in the past with poduval males marrying nambiar females/ nair females,but nowadays even their females wed nambiars/ nairs.
the north malabar nambiars would not traditionally wed south of the korapuzha river, on grounds of inferiority of the nairs,but this is all past history!
In north malabar(kannur) the nair surname is taken up by vaniya, maniyani and such communities, whereas the true-blue nair is the nambiar, that is what I have been given to
understand, in kasargod however the surname nair is usually taken by genuine nairs.

Interesting I didn't know this

Kasaragod Nairs also use Nambiar for the most part

pegasus
10-11-2018, 02:05 AM
I don't believe the Toda are steppe people at all, rather that they are some form high Iran_N variant of IVC descent due to their J levels and high incidence of one of the light-skin alleles (nearly 100%)

Their religion has parallel to other J civs like Minoans as well as the J2a heavy pastoralist Gujarati Maldharis who are also in the first paper vishankar linked.

They are very different to their Nilgiri neighbours who are similar to the Irula (ASI; mix of AASI and IVCp moving south)

The supplementary table of minor pops vishankar linked. I believe the R1a is undercooked and a lot of the R-M207 (basal R) is probably R1a like for the Brahmin:

https://i.imgur.com/GsweU1Y.png

R2 levels are high across the board which is more in line with what i expect

Main table:

https://i.imgur.com/JJpFbnN.png

This was a long well written paper and very under rated in its implications. In particular those Thoda pretty much IVC relics based of my gut instinct and I feel after this paper they are. Look at their Y dna J, L and R2 no R1a and their sophisticated culture and textiles, as well complete dependence on buffalo milk both raw and processed clearly shows lactose tolerance seems independent and possibly has deeper implications for South Asians. Another interesting thing is their textile designs and house designs which look eerily similar to IVC motifs as well as Sumerian Reed huts. Sumerians were heavily involved with trading with IVC people and water buffalo introduced by IVC traders became a very important domesticated animal for them and still is to this day for Marsh Arabs in Southern Iraq.

BMG
10-11-2018, 02:21 AM
Im not very aware of the history of this section but this seems to be more common in Southern Kerala.

Yes there are non-martial barber and labourer subcastes in the caste/community who probably never had a martial history, though soldiers forming the majority of the Nair caste is what I have read.

There are even assimilated groups such as the Tamil Padam Nairs. Again when Nair became a title it stopped becoming genetic unit like for the Jatts of North India for example.

Here is why the title was used for self-promotion:

The revisionist argument, whose supporters also include Joan Mencher, proposes a mixed system. The larger divisions were indeed subcastes, as they demonstrated a stability of status, longevity and geographic spread; however, the smaller divisions were fluid, often relatively short-lived and narrow in geographic placement. These divisions, such as the Veluttetan, Chakkala and Vilakkittalavan, would take titles such as Nair or Nayar in order to boost their social status, as was also the practice with other castes elsewhere, although they were often not recognised as caste members by the higher ranks and other Nairs would not marry with them. It has also been postulated that some exogamous families came together to form small divisions as a consequence of shared work experiences with, for example, a local Nambudiri or Nair chief. These groups then became an endogamous subdivision, in a similar manner to developments of subdivisions in other castes elsewhere.[42] The more subdivisions that were created, the more opportunity there was for social mobility within the Nair community as a whole.

There was also the other side where some Nairs who were basically fiefdom holders employed soldier Nairs and were not involved in military activities themselves. Zamorins are the most famous example

Panikkar likely predated Nairs and Syrian Christians, it was likely an Ezhava martial kalaripayyatt title adopted/assimilated by Nairs/Syrian Christians. Pillai sounds like that too due to its Tamil nature

Panikker title like vaidhyan and tharakan are titles conferred during 17th and 18th century . As per their own family history they were given the title in 17th century but they maintain they were practicing martial arts for centuries . My paternal grandmother's family is vaidhyan but they stopped using the title some generations ago but a related family line is still using it . Their version of the story is that they were traditionally ayurvedic practitioners and they were given the title when one of the ancestors served some king . Their descendants started using it as a surname probably in a business point of view .

parasar
10-11-2018, 02:25 AM
...

The supplementary table of minor pops vishankar linked. I believe the R1a is undercooked and a lot of the R-M207 (basal R) is probably R1a like for the Brahmin:
...

R2 levels are high across the board which is more in line with what i expect



Likely R2xM124. All M207* (except one I believe) have turned out R2-M479 on further testing.

Interesting also the P-M45xM242xM207

bmoney
10-11-2018, 02:46 AM
Likely R2xM124. All M207* (except one I believe) have turned out R2-M479 on further testing.

Interesting also the P-M45xM242xM207

Yeah but the Brahmin population scoring 0 R1a seems baffling

thejkhan
10-11-2018, 03:16 AM
Yeah but the Brahmin population scoring 0 R1a seems baffling

The sample size is too small (5) for it represent a realistic haplogroup distribution among this group (?) of Brahmins.

bmoney
10-11-2018, 03:36 AM
The sample size is too small (5) for it represent a realistic haplogroup distribution among this group (?) of Brahmins.

good point but not finding even 1 R1a among 5 Brahmins seems odd (assuming random sampling)

I just realised that it is all R2 (2/5) as the R-M207 line is a subtotal and the R is divided into R1a and R2 in that table

thejkhan
10-11-2018, 04:11 AM
good point but not finding even 1 R1a among 5 Brahmins seems odd (assuming random sampling)

I just realised that it is all R2 (2/5) as the R-M207 line is a subtotal and the R is divided into R1a and R2 in that table


It's weird actually.

M207 column is a total of the next M207 column and the R1 column.

R2 and R1a1 are not added to this total.

So there are 3 R in the sample:

1 M207 that has not been tested for either R1 or R2.

2 samples that tested +ve for R2.

Thomas48
10-11-2018, 05:51 AM
The vailidty of the the margam kali songs is not more than aithiyamala . The creation of the margam kali songs should be seen in the context of the time as the native christians tried to claim older traditions to distance themselves from portugese who was trying to say we were following wrong forms of christianity . I personally see St thomas story to be a legend especially the brahmin conversion part . Historicity can't be verified but still probability of the legend to be true is extremely less . But it can't be used as an excuse to deny the existence of early syrian christians which become a important community at least by 9th century (By this i don't mean the actual numbers were high but their presence could be felt )

St. Thomas tradition is a legend that is hard to discern. Besides Margam Kali song text, there is also a set of songs called Ramban Pattu or Thoma Parvam that mention the whole St. Thomas arrival to India conversion of Brahmins, etc. Ramban Pattu was also written down when the Portuguese arrive in India, so again another literature piece that sets back the origin of the Nasrani to ancient times.

There’s actually many secular historians out there that beleive the St. Thomas Christians confused Knay Thoma for St. Thomas the Apostle. Thus Knay Thoma became St. Thomas the Apostle for the Syrian Christians and was born the legend of St. Thomas of India. There is some support and also some arguments that can be made against this claim. In support the Portuguese write that the St. Thomas Christians called Knay Thoma “Mar Thoma”, a reference that today we only use for St. Thomas the Apostle. It’s clear from that quotation that “Mar Thoma” was a reference to Knay Thoma. An issue with this “confusion concept” is that the Portuguese clearly state also that there are two sets of Christians in Malabar, the Thomas of Cana Christians (a small minority numbering >5000) and the St. Thomas Christians (the majority numbering around 30,000). If this distinction in the two Thomas’ and the ethnic communities left by them existed, then the confusion of Knay Thoma as Thomas the Apostle is made null. At the same time it remains interesting that Knay Thoma was referred to as Mar Thoma, which of course simply translates from Syriac to “Lord Thomas”. The Portuguese write that during their arrival to India, the Nasrani viewed Knay Thoma as a saint, this could be a reason why they also called him “Mar Thoma”.

Thomas48
10-11-2018, 06:11 AM
Panikker title like vaidhyan and tharakan are titles conferred during 17th and 18th century . As per their own family history they were given the title in 17th century but they maintain they were practicing martial arts for centuries . My paternal grandmother's family is vaidhyan but they stopped using the title some generations ago but a related family line is still using it . Their version of the story is that they were traditionally ayurvedic practitioners and they were given the title when one of the ancestors served some king . Their descendants started using it as a surname probably in a business point of view .

Isn’t Tharakan a title for tax collectors? I know many Knanaya were given the title “Tharakan” and they were tax collectors for the Vadakkumkur Kingdom I beleive. I think also many Syrian Christians held the same title, were they also tax collectors?

The Nasrani were without a doubt a very martial caste as well. Numerous records indicate them serving and making up huge parts of the Kochi Kingdoms army. Supposedly they were excellent gunsmen and would also carry swords and shields everywhere they went, except when they were in their own lands or going to Church. Sword and shield seems to be a clear mention of Parichamuttu Kali, the Nasrani version of the Kalaripayattu martial tradition. According to an early European source, the Nasrani made up some 50,000 soldiers in the Kochi Rajas army.

bmoney
10-11-2018, 06:56 AM
Isn’t Tharakan a title for tax collectors? I know many Knanaya were given the title “Tharakan” and they were tax collectors for the Vadakkumkur Kingdom I beleive. I think also many Syrian Christians held the same title, were they also tax collectors?

The Nasrani were without a doubt a very martial caste as well. Numerous records indicate them serving and making up huge parts of the Kochi Kingdoms army. Supposedly they were excellent gunsmen and would also carry swords and shields everywhere they went, except when they were in their own lands or going to Church. Sword and shield seems to be a clear mention of Parichamuttu Kali, the Nasrani version of the Kalaripayattu martial tradition. According to an early European source, the Nasrani made up some 50,000 soldiers in the Kochi Rajas army.

yes I have heard the Brahmins considered the Nasrani as sat Shudra rather than complete avarnas like Thiyyas and some Nairs, and that some Nasrani families were so powerful they had their own private armies similar to some Nairs.

Incidentally I completely forgot that Nasranis also migrated to North Kerala due to their excellent agricultural skills and work ethic. We used to know one family who held land close to our holdings, though our communities kept to ourselves. They would speak our dialect and not TV Malayalam ;) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_Migration

Thomas48
10-11-2018, 07:44 AM
yes I have heard the Brahmins considered the Nasrani as sat Shudra rather than complete avarnas like Thiyyas and some Nairs, and that some Nasrani families were so powerful they had their own private armies similar to some Nairs.

Incidentally I completely forgot that Nasranis also migrated to North Kerala due to their excellent agricultural skills and work ethic. We used to know one family who held land close to our holdings, though our communities kept to ourselves. They would speak our dialect and not TV Malayalam ;) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_Migration

Oh wow I did know the Malabar Migration was a well known event. The first large scale organized migration was by the Knanaya, specially the Knanaya Catholics. The first 72 families chosen to relocate to Malabar was an allusion towards our tradition of 72 families leaving from the Middle East to Kerala. Syrian Christians had also been relocating to Malabar during this time. Some of the Nasrani that moved were rich agriculturalists who bought more landholdings but there were also many who were poorer Nasrani who left to create new lives for themselves.

vishankar
10-11-2018, 02:55 PM
Yes... There is a Knanaya church and Knanaya run Hospital in Kanhangad,Kasargod . Enterprising and adaptable people:)

BMG
10-11-2018, 05:20 PM
yes I have heard the Brahmins considered the Nasrani as sat Shudra rather than complete avarnas like Thiyyas and some Nairs, and that some Nasrani families were so powerful they had their own private armies similar to some Nairs.

Incidentally I completely forgot that Nasranis also migrated to North Kerala due to their excellent agricultural skills and work ethic. We used to know one family who held land close to our holdings, though our communities kept to ourselves. They would speak our dialect and not TV Malayalam ;) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_Migration

The malabar migration is a part of the broader migration to western ghats . The syrian christians migrated to the interior of the idukki to the malnad region in karnataka . The shimoga and chikamagalur district as well as belthangady taluk in dakshinkannada and to a lesser extent hassan and kodagu district has many syrian christian settlement areas . They cultivated mainly cotton , arecanut ,cocoa ,vanilla ,coffee ,tea and rubber in the vast forested areas of the malnad regions . When i visited N R Pura in the border of shimoga and chikamagalur district there was a syrian christian church built in 1915 . They told during that time there were around 100 families .also it was 2nd oldest syrian christian church in karnataka . Oldest as per them was in some place near belthangady . Now many of them has grown very rich . Apart from syrian christians there are also many muslims from calicut ,kannur and kasaragod regions who ocuppy big estates in malnad regions . I had spent a few years there arranging tour programmes for foreign tourists in western ghats so connections with these people was essential .

vishankar
10-12-2018, 08:27 AM
just need some help to understand these tables....266182661826619....
does the expansion age in YBP mean that the castes stopped getting new additions of haplotypes after that time?....and what exavtly does population expansion mean?

BMG
10-12-2018, 05:01 PM
Interesting study shared by vishankar . I was going through the haplogroup distribution among the karnataka populations . The tulu populations bunts ,billava and mogaveera are very similar in terms of ydna which is interesting . Also we have kodavas who is also broadly similar . Non tribal and non-SC kerala populations are also having similar proportions .

BMG
10-13-2018, 08:02 AM
Interesting study shared by vishankar . I was going through the haplogroup distribution among the karnataka populations . The tulu populations bunts ,billava and mogaveera are very similar in terms of ydna which is interesting . Also we have kodavas who is also broadly similar . Non tribal and non-SC kerala populations are also having similar proportions .

From the same study
Thiyya
L1 -6/73
L3-7/73
J2a-3/73
J2b-1/73

Namboothiri
L1- 1/36
L3- 2/36
J2a- 1/36

Nair
L1 -6/37
L3- 1/37
J2a- 1/36

BMG
10-13-2018, 11:33 AM
I have a phased genome to represent my grandfather . Since no sibling's are alive i have run a phased genome through harappa calc to represent my maternal grandfather . He is seemingly in line with general syrian christians results . There was no expected high NE Asian so the maternal uncle's geno 2.0 NE Asian is just noise due to low markers . I have made into a single table all the grandparent's result .




PGF
PGM
MGF
MGM


Y
R-L657
C-P92
L-M357
J-L26


mt
HV
J1b1a1
M5a
R30a


S-Indian
47.73
48.97
50.03
48.69


Baloch
35.98
34.62
33.92
37.24


Caucasian
5.11
3.8
6.35
3.72


NE-Euro
4.38
4.95
2.27
2.96


SE-Asian
1.62
0.65
1.03
0.66


Siberian
0.73
1.52
1.42
1.61


NE-Asian
1.23
0.44
0.98
1.16


Papuan
0.45
1.29
0.77
1.23


American
0.99
0
0.42
0.38


Beringian
0.17
0.33
1.11
0


Mediterranean
1.14
0.09
0
0.91


SW-Asian
0.22
3.34
1.7
1.44


E-African
0.05
0
0
0

vishankar
10-13-2018, 04:30 PM
which populations does the Harappa " Mediterranean" correspond too? I have 1.97%....Initially I thought south west asian is a continuation of mediterranean...

Rustyshakelford
10-13-2018, 04:39 PM
I have a phased genome to represent my grandfather . Since no sibling's are alive i have run a phased genome through harappa calc to represent my maternal grandfather . He is seemingly in line with general syrian christians results . There was no expected high NE Asian so the maternal uncle's geno 2.0 NE Asian is just noise due to low markers . I have made into a single table all the grandparent's result .




PGF
PGM
MGF
MGM


Y
R-L657
C-P92
L-M357
J-L26


mt
HV
J1b1a1
M5a
R30a


S-Indian
47.73
48.97
50.03
48.69


Baloch
35.98
34.62
33.92
37.24


Caucasian
5.11
3.8
6.35
3.72


NE-Euro
4.38
4.95
2.27
2.96


SE-Asian
1.62
0.65
1.03
0.66


Siberian
0.73
1.52
1.42
1.61


NE-Asian
1.23
0.44
0.98
1.16


Papuan
0.45
1.29
0.77
1.23


American
0.99
0
0.42
0.38


Beringian
0.17
0.33
1.11
0


Mediterranean
1.14
0.09
0
0.91


SW-Asian
0.22
3.34
1.7
1.44


E-African
0.05
0
0
0



Wow basically a 1:1 ratio between NE-Euro and Caucasian except for MGF. NE euro on paternal side seems a lot higher than most Syrians. Do you get a lot of Hindu matches?

BMG
10-13-2018, 05:09 PM
Wow basically a 1:1 ratio between NE-Euro and Caucasian except for MGF. NE euro on paternal side seems a lot higher than most Syrians. Do you get a lot of Hindu matches?
Not many . i had one kerala brahmin at 4.7 gen and a few others further down at gedmatch . I have none at ftdna .

I have seen few with NE Euro above 4 . But my Paternal Grandmother's results seem somewhat odd for a syrian christian. Considering they had an ayurvedic tradition it is possible they might have had recent hindu past . I had asked a few elders but they know nothing about that . Basically that branch of the family was poor and didn't have time for fancy origin stories .

vishankar
10-13-2018, 05:53 PM
4.95 ne euro seems to be so similar to upper caste hindu( nambuthiri,nair, ambalavasi)....more nambuthiri perhaps...

bmoney
10-14-2018, 02:57 AM
I have a phased genome to represent my grandfather . Since no sibling's are alive i have run a phased genome through harappa calc to represent my maternal grandfather . He is seemingly in line with general syrian christians results . There was no expected high NE Asian so the maternal uncle's geno 2.0 NE Asian is just noise due to low markers . I have made into a single table all the grandparent's result .




PGF
PGM
MGF
MGM


Y
R-L657
C-P92
L-M357
J-L26


mt
HV
J1b1a1
M5a
R30a


S-Indian
47.73
48.97
50.03
48.69


Baloch
35.98
34.62
33.92
37.24


Caucasian
5.11
3.8
6.35
3.72


NE-Euro
4.38
4.95
2.27
2.96


SE-Asian
1.62
0.65
1.03
0.66


Siberian
0.73
1.52
1.42
1.61


NE-Asian
1.23
0.44
0.98
1.16


Papuan
0.45
1.29
0.77
1.23


American
0.99
0
0.42
0.38


Beringian
0.17
0.33
1.11
0


Mediterranean
1.14
0.09
0
0.91


SW-Asian
0.22
3.34
1.7
1.44


E-African
0.05
0
0
0



Bmg please post single oracles for all of your family members and yourself thanks

Your PGF scores very similar to me down to the Med and NE Asian

bmoney
10-15-2018, 10:33 AM
Hi BMG could you respond?

@Rustyshakelford @Thomas48 @Traject could you guys post Harappa oracles for the kits under your control (not oracle-4) and for Dodecad v3 as well

I wanted to know if Syrian Christians had distinct and different oracles to Nairs, which would provide some validity to theories of Ahicchatra/Ahikshetra origin that Brahmins have written about for certain Nairs

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-Nair-community

https://www.jatland.com/home/Nagavansh

My oracles:

Harappa v5 unconverted (lower distance than converted v5 to v3):


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.1% lodi (reich) @ 1.51
2 53.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 46.3% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.66
3 51.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.8% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.68
4 56.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 43.9% kol (metspalu) @ 1.69
5 60.2% tharu (metspalu) + 39.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74

Dodecad v3 - v5 to v3 converted file (lower fit than the unconverted v5 file):


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.6% Lodi (Reich) + 13.4% Adygei (HGDP) @ 1.41
2 57.6% Lodi (Reich) + 42.4% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 1.66
3 55% Lodi (Reich) + 45% Pakistani (Xing) @ 1.72
4 86.8% Lodi (Reich) + 13.2% Lezgins (Behar) @ 1.76
5 65.1% Lodi (Reich) + 34.9% Pathan (HGDP) @ 1.85
6 62.5% Pakistani (Xing) + 37.5% Chenchu (Reich) @ 1.96
7 78.6% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 21.4% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 2
8 72.7% Lodi (Reich) + 27.3% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.03
9 79.5% Bhil (Reich) + 20.5% Lezgins (Behar) @ 2.04
10 60.1% Pakistani (Xing) + 39.9% Madiga (Reich) @ 2.05
11 55.1% Lodi (Reich) + 44.9% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.09
12 73.6% Lodi (Reich) + 26.4% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.13
13 84.7% Lodi (Reich) + 15.3% Urkarah (Xing) @ 2.19
14 94.8% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 5.2% Adygei (HGDP) @ 2.19
15 65.1% Vaish (Reich) + 34.9% Velama (Reich) @ 2.23
16 87.8% Lodi (Reich) + 12.2% Georgians (Behar) @ 2.24
17 95.3% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 4.7% Georgians (Behar) @ 2.27
18 57.5% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) + 42.5% Madiga (Reich) @ 2.28
19 76.8% Srivastava (Reich) + 23.2% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.32
20 61.7% Pakistani (Xing) + 38.3% AP_Mala (Xing) @ 2.33

Rustyshakelford
10-15-2018, 04:11 PM
Heres mine:

Harappa
26711


Dodecad V3
26712

BMG
10-15-2018, 06:02 PM
Bmg please post single oracles for all of your family members and yourself thanks

Your PGF scores very similar to me down to the Med and NE Asian

I have removed all my kits from gedmatch . May have posted mine and paternal grandparents here before . I will run it through DIY when i get time

bmoney
10-15-2018, 11:20 PM
Heres mine:

Harappa
26711


Dodecad V3
26712

Thats great! notice how the oversaturation of reference groups and mathematical optimisation in Harappa has produced something unrealistic with the Balochi/Makrani picking up the non-South Asian related West Ancient adna and combining it with ancient Iran_N ancestry

Whereas look at V3s top oracle INS(SGVP) Singapore Indian (Tamil mid-caste most probably) mixed with Assyrian provides the most realistic oracle (also lowest fit for you), though nmonte takes some of that inflated Assyrian away when we provide IVC+Sintashta related West Asian dna.

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 01:23 AM
Hi BMG could you respond?

@Rustyshakelford @Thomas48 @Traject could you guys post Harappa oracles for the kits under your control (not oracle-4) and for Dodecad v3 as well

I wanted to know if Syrian Christians had distinct and different oracles to Nairs, which would provide some validity to theories of Ahicchatra/Ahikshetra origin that Brahmins have written about for certain Nairs

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-Nair-community

https://www.jatland.com/home/Nagavansh

My oracles:

Harappa v5 unconverted (lower distance than converted v5 to v3):


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.1% lodi (reich) @ 1.51
2 53.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 46.3% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.66
3 51.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.8% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.68
4 56.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 43.9% kol (metspalu) @ 1.69
5 60.2% tharu (metspalu) + 39.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74

Dodecad v3 - v5 to v3 converted file (lower fit than the unconverted v5 file):


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.6% Lodi (Reich) + 13.4% Adygei (HGDP) @ 1.41
2 57.6% Lodi (Reich) + 42.4% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 1.66
3 55% Lodi (Reich) + 45% Pakistani (Xing) @ 1.72
4 86.8% Lodi (Reich) + 13.2% Lezgins (Behar) @ 1.76
5 65.1% Lodi (Reich) + 34.9% Pathan (HGDP) @ 1.85
6 62.5% Pakistani (Xing) + 37.5% Chenchu (Reich) @ 1.96
7 78.6% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 21.4% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 2
8 72.7% Lodi (Reich) + 27.3% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.03
9 79.5% Bhil (Reich) + 20.5% Lezgins (Behar) @ 2.04
10 60.1% Pakistani (Xing) + 39.9% Madiga (Reich) @ 2.05
11 55.1% Lodi (Reich) + 44.9% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.09
12 73.6% Lodi (Reich) + 26.4% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.13
13 84.7% Lodi (Reich) + 15.3% Urkarah (Xing) @ 2.19
14 94.8% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 5.2% Adygei (HGDP) @ 2.19
15 65.1% Vaish (Reich) + 34.9% Velama (Reich) @ 2.23
16 87.8% Lodi (Reich) + 12.2% Georgians (Behar) @ 2.24
17 95.3% AP_Brahmin (Xing) + 4.7% Georgians (Behar) @ 2.27
18 57.5% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) + 42.5% Madiga (Reich) @ 2.28
19 76.8% Srivastava (Reich) + 23.2% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.32
20 61.7% Pakistani (Xing) + 38.3% AP_Mala (Xing) @ 2.33


All the Knanaya kits I’ve seen on gedmatch follow the same patterns as mine with the excess west Asian being picked up as Baloch/makrani. The Syrian Christian kits i’ve seen are also A lot different, I can post some if you’d like but they’re nothing like yours at all. BMG would be the only possible exception given the high NE euro.

bmoney
10-16-2018, 01:41 AM
All the Knanaya kits I’ve seen on gedmatch follow the same patterns as mine with the excess west Asian being picked up as Baloch/makrani. The Syrian Christian kits i’ve seen are also A lot different, I can post some if you’d like but they’re nothing like yours at all. BMG would be the only possible exception given the high NE euro.

Yes please.

And yes i forgot to clarify the obvious, Knanaya and Syrian Christians would be very distinct. What I meant was that the Kerala 1st millennium 'genetic base' might be similar for both

Though I expect Nair and Ezhava converts into the Syrian Christian community as well due to certain tax benefits I read about which Christians were privilege to in the kingdom of Cochin. I believe it was the Portuguese who were responsible for elevating Syrian Christian social status

Also read about a John Munro, can anyone clarify?

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 03:37 AM
Yes please.

And yes i forgot to clarify the obvious, Knanaya and Syrian Christians would be very distinct. What I meant was that the Kerala 1st millennium 'genetic base' might be similar for both

Though I expect Nair and Ezhava converts into the Syrian Christian community as well due to certain tax benefits I read about which Christians were privilege to in the kingdom of Cochin. I believe it was the Portuguese who were responsible for elevating Syrian Christian social status

Also read about a John Munro, can anyone clarify?

Syrian #1:

Harappa:
26733
Dodecad V3:
26734


Syrian #2
Harappa:
26735
Dodecad V3:
26736

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 03:42 AM
Syrian #3

Harappa
26738
Dodecad V3
26739


Syrian #1 and #3 are both from prominent families judging by their last names


Heres another knanaya one, this guy had 17% middle eastern on FTDNA
Harappa
26740
Dodecad
26741

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 03:51 AM
Also If it interests you, i have a Menon as a distant match:

Harappa:
26743

Dodecad:
26744

Her oracles (besides the Kashmiri) seem to resemble syrians as does her harappa which is high Caucasian but low NE-Euro

S-Indian 45.44
Baloch 37.48
Caucasian 8.82
NE-Euro 1.28
SE-Asian -
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.70
Papuan 1.48
American 0.36
Beringian 1.62
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.81
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

bmoney
10-16-2018, 04:33 AM
Syrian #3

Harappa
26738
Dodecad V3
26739


Syrian #1 and #3 are both from prominent families judging by their last names


Heres another knanaya one, this guy had 17% middle eastern on FTDNA
Harappa
26740
Dodecad
26741

Could you repost just this post? I cant view these attachments for some reason

bmoney
10-16-2018, 04:47 AM
Also If it interests you, i have a Menon as a distant match:

Harappa:
26743

Dodecad:
26744

Her oracles (besides the Kashmiri) seem to resemble syrians as does her harappa which is high Caucasian but low NE-Euro

S-Indian 45.44
Baloch 37.48
Caucasian 8.82
NE-Euro 1.28
SE-Asian -
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.70
Papuan 1.48
American 0.36
Beringian 1.62
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.81
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Wow, don't forget the SW Asian! I score noise level

Either this is an assimilated Nair from the Syrian Christian community or from the same root population. My moneys on the former due to you matching with her

bmoney
10-16-2018, 04:56 AM
Syrian #1:

Harappa:
26733
Dodecad V3:
26734


Syrian #2
Harappa:
26735
Dodecad V3:
26736

Syrian 2 looks admixed with MENA 'Assyrian'

Maybe we should use Assyrian in our nmontes. Give me a sec

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 05:39 AM
Could you repost just this post? I cant view these attachments for some reason

Syrian #3

Harappa
26745
Dodecad V3
26746

Syrian #1 and #3 are both from prominent Syrian Christian families judging by their last names


Heres another knanaya one, this guy had 17% middle eastern on FTDNA but nothing remarkable on Gedmatch
Harappa
26747
Dodecad
26748

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 05:42 AM
Syrian 2 looks admixed with MENA 'Assyrian'

Maybe we should use Assyrian in our nmontes. Give me a sec

yeah definitely admixed based on oracles but the Caucasian+SW Asian on Harappa is underwhelming which is strange

bmoney
10-16-2018, 05:45 AM
Syrian 2 looks admixed with MENA 'Assyrian'

Maybe we should use Assyrian in our nmontes. Give me a sec

There is overlap between the Assyrian component and Iran_N as I'm scoring some, but Knanaya (Rustyshakelford) clearly scores differently

I don't score dramatically different, just have additional Indo-Aryan mix which Syrian Christians also score and likely Ezhavas do too

https://i.imgur.com/xcyItx0.png

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 06:13 AM
There is overlap between the Assyrian component and Iran_N as I'm scoring some, but Knanaya (Rustyshakelford) clearly scores differently

I don't score dramatically different, just have additional Indo-Aryan mix which Syrian Christians also score and likely Ezhavas do too

https://i.imgur.com/xcyItx0.png

Could you add Thomas and his 3 samples as well?

bmoney
10-16-2018, 06:14 AM
Syrian #3

Harappa
26745
Dodecad V3
26746

Syrian #1 and #3 are both from prominent Syrian Christian families judging by their last names


Heres another knanaya one, this guy had 17% middle eastern on FTDNA but nothing remarkable on Gedmatch
Harappa
26747
Dodecad
26748

So the genetic base is largely Velama for most Syrian Christians and the Knanaya, and not all Syrian Christians score the Assyrian signal like the Knanaya

bmoney
10-16-2018, 06:18 AM
Could you add Thomas and his 3 samples as well?

Could you post their scaled coordinates, Im not sure where he posted them

Rustyshakelford
10-16-2018, 06:22 AM
Do you think using yemenite would be a better proxy? I think the assyrian overlap with Iran_N is inflating the assyrian component for all of us. the last time you ran it you used yemenite jew and brahmin gujarat and the results were a bit different.

also would you mind adding Thomas's coordinates if you can? Thanks.

Tobin552458_scaled,0.048944,-0.039606,-0.15198,0.083334,-0.075091,0.049643,-0.001645,0.010384,0.028224,0.010752,0.000162,-0.001199,0.000892,0.004129,0.003529,-0.009944,-0.009779,0.000253,0.002137,-0.006128,0.002745,-0.001731,-0.004067,-0.001084,-0.003113
Tobin842108_scaled,0.046667,-0.042652,-0.156505,0.085272,-0.074783,0.049364,0,0.006231,0.029247,0.014214,-0.000812,-0.001199,0.002081,-0.002202,-0.000679,0.008353,-0.00352,0.002027,0.00088,-0.003502,0.00025,-0.003957,0.000493,-0.000241,0.004191
Tobin855115_scaled,0.046667,-0.050776,-0.147831,0.085272,-0.078784,0.051874,0.004465,0.007846,0.027202,0.017 495,-0.003897,-0.000899,-0.0055,0.001239,0.003936,0.001724,-0.001304,0,0.001131,-0.007379,0.002496,-0.004946,0.001725,-0.001325,0.00012

bmoney
10-16-2018, 06:43 AM
Do you think using yemenite would be a better proxy? I think the assyrian overlap with Iran_N is inflating the assyrian component for all of us. the last time you ran it you used yemenite jew and brahmin gujarat and the results were a bit different.

also would you mind adding Thomas's coordinates if you can? Thanks.

Tobin552458_scaled,0.048944,-0.039606,-0.15198,0.083334,-0.075091,0.049643,-0.001645,0.010384,0.028224,0.010752,0.000162,-0.001199,0.000892,0.004129,0.003529,-0.009944,-0.009779,0.000253,0.002137,-0.006128,0.002745,-0.001731,-0.004067,-0.001084,-0.003113
Tobin842108_scaled,0.046667,-0.042652,-0.156505,0.085272,-0.074783,0.049364,0,0.006231,0.029247,0.014214,-0.000812,-0.001199,0.002081,-0.002202,-0.000679,0.008353,-0.00352,0.002027,0.00088,-0.003502,0.00025,-0.003957,0.000493,-0.000241,0.004191
Tobin855115_scaled,0.046667,-0.050776,-0.147831,0.085272,-0.078784,0.051874,0.004465,0.007846,0.027202,0.017 495,-0.003897,-0.000899,-0.0055,0.001239,0.003936,0.001724,-0.001304,0,0.001131,-0.007379,0.002496,-0.004946,0.001725,-0.001325,0.00012

It was the weird UP Brahmin sample.

Gujarat Brahmin fixed my Assyrian and Yemenite Jew is better at isolating the component. I have noise levels on this run!

Whereas Syrian Christians + Knanaya score Yemen Jew, the latter far higher obviously!

Traject sister's Yemen Jew isnt far from one of the Knanaya samples

https://i.imgur.com/Z2tKgHf.png

BMG
10-16-2018, 05:16 PM
I have removed all my kits from gedmatch . May have posted mine and paternal grandparents here before . I will run it through DIY when i get time

mine
[1,] "28.7% bhatia_harappa_2 + 71.3% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "0.9384"
[2,] "39.2% punjabi_harappa_10 + 60.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.0041"
[3,] "38.7% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10 + 61.3% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.0715"
[4,] "39.2% kashmiri-pahari_harappa_2 + 60.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.1341"
[5,] "25.1% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 74.9% rajasthani_harappa_4" "1.1634"
[6,] "69.6% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 30.4% punjabi_harappa_10" "1.19"
[7,] "41.4% ap-brahmin_xing_25 + 58.6% kerala-christian_harappa_7" "1.1947"
[8,] "78.6% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 21.4% bhatia_harappa_2" "1.2043"
[9,] "57.5% naidu_reich_4 + 42.5% punjabi_harappa_10" "1.2378"
[10,] "39.6% punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa_2 + 60.4% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.2971"
[11,] "53.9% brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu_2 + 46.1% kerala-muslim_harappa_2" "1.3102"
[12,] "52.7% kerala-christian_harappa_7 + 47.3% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.3256"
[13,] "32.3% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8 + 67.7% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3454"
[14,] "44.6% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 55.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3473"
[15,] "56.4% maharashtrian_harappa_4 + 43.6% tamil_harappa_3" "1.3555"
[16,] "70.1% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 29.9% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10" "1.3671"
[17,] "87.3% rajasthani_harappa_4 + 12.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu_2" "1.3758"
[18,] "26% dharkar_metspalu_11 + 74% kerala-christian_harappa_7" "1.3838"
[19,] "88% rajasthani_harappa_4 + 12% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3884"
[20,] "38.2% punjabi-brahmin_harappa_2 + 61.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3903"

PGF
1,] "13.2% kashmiri_harappa_2 + 86.8% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.1673"
[2,] "94.1% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41 + 5.9% tajik_yunusbayev_15" "1.1718"
[3,] "77% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41 + 23% up_harappa_5" "1.1826"
[4,] "25.9% punjabi-arain_xing_25 + 74.1% tharu_metspalu_2" "1.1927"
[5,] "56.1% kol_metspalu_16 + 43.9% punjabi-arain_xing_25" "1.2147"
[6,] "35.5% ap-hyderabad_harappa_2 + 64.5% gujarati_harappa_3" "1.2166"
[7,] "33.8% bhatia_harappa_2 + 66.2% dusadh_metspalu_6" "1.2503"
[8,] "9.5% burusho_hgdp_25 + 90.5% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.2635"
[9,] "31.9% bihari_harappa_2 + 68.1% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.2681"
[10,] "13.8% kashmiri-pandit_reich_5 + 86.2% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.2872"
[11,] "4.6% kharia_chaubey_2 + 95.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3121"
[12,] "4.5% kharia_reich_4 + 95.5% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3224"
[13,] "4.5% savara_chaubey_2 + 95.5% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3227"
[14,] "17.9% bengali_harappa_8 + 82.1% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3318"
[15,] "4.6% ho_chaubey_5 + 95.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.333"
[16,] "6.4% sahariya_reich_4 + 93.6% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3335"
[17,] "4.3% bonda_chaubey_4 + 95.7% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.343"
[18,] "4.3% juang_chaubey_2 + 95.7% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3506"
[19,] "20.3% bhatia_harappa_2 + 79.7% tharu_metspalu_2" "1.3518"
[20,] "9.1% pathan_hgdp_23 + 90.9% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.3609"

PGM

[1,] "64% naidu_reich_4 + 36% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8" "1.9994"
[2,] "66.1% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 33.9% kerala-muslim_harappa_2" "2.1215"
[3,] "57.1% naidu_reich_4 + 42.9% punjabi_harappa_10" "2.2075"
[4,] "3.9% qatari_henn2012_156 + 96.1% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.2125"
[5,] "33.2% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8 + 66.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "2.2631"
[6,] "67.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 32.1% tamil_harappa_3" "2.2748"
[7,] "3.5% bedouin_hgdp_46 + 96.5% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.3134"
[8,] "3.4% saudi_behar_20 + 96.6% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.3195"
[9,] "46% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 54% meghawal_reich_5" "2.3625"
[10,] "71.1% meghawal_reich_5 + 28.9% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "2.3799"
[11,] "73.5% meghawal_reich_5 + 26.5% naidu_reich_4" "2.395"
[12,] "57.6% naidu_reich_4 + 42.4% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10" "2.4154"
[13,] "94.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 5.1% paniya_chaubey_3" "2.443"
[14,] "15.7% hakkipikki_metspalu_4 + 84.3% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4475"
[15,] "92.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 7.1% nihali_metspalu_2" "2.4544"
[16,] "16.6% ap-madiga_xing_10 + 83.4% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4579"
[17,] "36.9% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 63.1% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4764"
[18,] "74.5% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 25.5% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8" "2.4842"
[19,] "15.1% kurumba_reich_9 + 84.9% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4842"
[20,] "85.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 14.1% tharu_reich_7" "2.4848"

bmoney
10-16-2018, 11:51 PM
mine
[1,] "28.7% bhatia_harappa_2 + 71.3% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "0.9384"
[2,] "39.2% punjabi_harappa_10 + 60.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.0041"
[3,] "38.7% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10 + 61.3% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.0715"
[4,] "39.2% kashmiri-pahari_harappa_2 + 60.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.1341"
[5,] "25.1% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 74.9% rajasthani_harappa_4" "1.1634"
[6,] "69.6% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 30.4% punjabi_harappa_10" "1.19"
[7,] "41.4% ap-brahmin_xing_25 + 58.6% kerala-christian_harappa_7" "1.1947"
[8,] "78.6% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 21.4% bhatia_harappa_2" "1.2043"
[9,] "57.5% naidu_reich_4 + 42.5% punjabi_harappa_10" "1.2378"
[10,] "39.6% punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa_2 + 60.4% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.2971"
[11,] "53.9% brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu_2 + 46.1% kerala-muslim_harappa_2" "1.3102"
[12,] "52.7% kerala-christian_harappa_7 + 47.3% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.3256"
[13,] "32.3% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8 + 67.7% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3454"
[14,] "44.6% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 55.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3473"
[15,] "56.4% maharashtrian_harappa_4 + 43.6% tamil_harappa_3" "1.3555"
[16,] "70.1% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 29.9% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10" "1.3671"
[17,] "87.3% rajasthani_harappa_4 + 12.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu_2" "1.3758"
[18,] "26% dharkar_metspalu_11 + 74% kerala-christian_harappa_7" "1.3838"
[19,] "88% rajasthani_harappa_4 + 12% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3884"
[20,] "38.2% punjabi-brahmin_harappa_2 + 61.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "1.3903"

PGF
1,] "13.2% kashmiri_harappa_2 + 86.8% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.1673"
[2,] "94.1% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41 + 5.9% tajik_yunusbayev_15" "1.1718"
[3,] "77% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41 + 23% up_harappa_5" "1.1826"
[4,] "25.9% punjabi-arain_xing_25 + 74.1% tharu_metspalu_2" "1.1927"
[5,] "56.1% kol_metspalu_16 + 43.9% punjabi-arain_xing_25" "1.2147"
[6,] "35.5% ap-hyderabad_harappa_2 + 64.5% gujarati_harappa_3" "1.2166"
[7,] "33.8% bhatia_harappa_2 + 66.2% dusadh_metspalu_6" "1.2503"
[8,] "9.5% burusho_hgdp_25 + 90.5% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.2635"
[9,] "31.9% bihari_harappa_2 + 68.1% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.2681"
[10,] "13.8% kashmiri-pandit_reich_5 + 86.2% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.2872"
[11,] "4.6% kharia_chaubey_2 + 95.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3121"
[12,] "4.5% kharia_reich_4 + 95.5% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3224"
[13,] "4.5% savara_chaubey_2 + 95.5% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3227"
[14,] "17.9% bengali_harappa_8 + 82.1% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3318"
[15,] "4.6% ho_chaubey_5 + 95.4% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.333"
[16,] "6.4% sahariya_reich_4 + 93.6% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3335"
[17,] "4.3% bonda_chaubey_4 + 95.7% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.343"
[18,] "4.3% juang_chaubey_2 + 95.7% tn-brahmin_xing_14" "1.3506"
[19,] "20.3% bhatia_harappa_2 + 79.7% tharu_metspalu_2" "1.3518"
[20,] "9.1% pathan_hgdp_23 + 90.9% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "1.3609"

PGM

[1,] "64% naidu_reich_4 + 36% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8" "1.9994"
[2,] "66.1% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 33.9% kerala-muslim_harappa_2" "2.1215"
[3,] "57.1% naidu_reich_4 + 42.9% punjabi_harappa_10" "2.2075"
[4,] "3.9% qatari_henn2012_156 + 96.1% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.2125"
[5,] "33.2% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8 + 66.8% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "2.2631"
[6,] "67.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 32.1% tamil_harappa_3" "2.2748"
[7,] "3.5% bedouin_hgdp_46 + 96.5% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.3134"
[8,] "3.4% saudi_behar_20 + 96.6% singapore-indian-b_sgvp_41" "2.3195"
[9,] "46% kerala-muslim_harappa_2 + 54% meghawal_reich_5" "2.3625"
[10,] "71.1% meghawal_reich_5 + 28.9% tamil-nadar_harappa_3" "2.3799"
[11,] "73.5% meghawal_reich_5 + 26.5% naidu_reich_4" "2.395"
[12,] "57.6% naidu_reich_4 + 42.4% singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10" "2.4154"
[13,] "94.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 5.1% paniya_chaubey_3" "2.443"
[14,] "15.7% hakkipikki_metspalu_4 + 84.3% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4475"
[15,] "92.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 7.1% nihali_metspalu_2" "2.4544"
[16,] "16.6% ap-madiga_xing_10 + 83.4% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4579"
[17,] "36.9% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 63.1% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4764"
[18,] "74.5% andhra-pradesh_harappa_5 + 25.5% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8" "2.4842"
[19,] "15.1% kurumba_reich_9 + 84.9% meghawal_reich_5" "2.4842"
[20,] "85.9% iyengar-brahmin_harappa_7 + 14.1% tharu_reich_7" "2.4848"

Yeah Syrian Christians tend to be represented as a Dravidian mid-caste mixed with a Punjabi/Gedrosian pop at a ratio of usually 3:1 or 4:1

Your PGF has a similarish oracle to me due to the steppe with a Central Indian pop instead of a Dravidian mid-caste

bmoney
10-17-2018, 12:08 AM
I've asked Poi to add the 4 Knanaya users as Kerala_Knanaya_average

Thomas48
10-17-2018, 04:53 AM
It would be interesting to see the St. Thomas Christians of Mar Sapor and Mar Proth figures on this model. Being from the Middle East as well, they score very similarly to the Knanaya in other models. In reality however they are the lost ethnic group among the St. Thomas Christians, with many having mingled with with Native Nasrani after their arrival in the 9th century. Even today there are only a handful of families who can say with confidence that they are the descendants of these migrant merchants. There are a few of them on Harappa.

bmoney
10-17-2018, 05:31 AM
Hey guys

I wanted to ask, is niece marriage a common practice in Kerala?

It seems to be a Dravidian custom followed by non-Brahmins in AP and TN

bmoney
10-17-2018, 05:33 AM
duplicate post

bmoney
10-17-2018, 05:36 AM
It would be interesting to see the St. Thomas Christians of Mar Sapor and Mar Proth figures on this model. Being from the Middle East as well, they score very similarly to the Knanaya in other models. In reality however they are the lost ethnic group among the St. Thomas Christians, with many having mingled with with Native Nasrani after their arrival in the 9th century. Even today there are only a handful of families who can say with confidence that they are the descendants of these migrant merchants. There are a few of them on Harappa.

What do you think about Trajects family? his sister scores nearly the same Yemen Jew that one of the Knanaya samples you provided scores

Rustyshakelford
10-17-2018, 06:23 AM
Hey guys

I wanted to ask, is niece marriage a common practice in Kerala?

It seems to be a Dravidian custom followed by non-Brahmins in AP and TN

Never heard of it in Kerala, always thought it was a Tamil thing. Maybe it was a thing in the distant past that faded similar to polyandry.

bmoney
10-17-2018, 06:40 AM
Never heard of it in Kerala, always thought it was a Tamil thing. Maybe it was a thing in the distant past that faded similar to polyandry.

Yeah, our autosomes show that most middle-castes have some level of Indo-Aryan ancestry probably from the Ashokan period, and our cultural Aryanisation might have broken us from our Villavar Western Tamil roots.

A Telugu member of this forum was surprised when I said we do not practice things like niece marriage. I also noticed Sri Lankan Tamils in the West have a puberty ceremony for girls that I have never heard of while I was in India

Cousin marriage used to be considered acceptable among my community however, and this all just my experience. Other members correct me if Im wrong

Rustyshakelford
10-17-2018, 08:17 AM
Yeah, our autosomes show that most middle-castes have some level of Indo-Aryan ancestry probably from the Ashokan period, and our cultural Aryanisation might have broken us from our Villavar Western Tamil roots.

A Telugu member of this forum was surprised when I said we do not practice things like niece marriage. I also noticed Sri Lankan Tamils in the West have a puberty ceremony for girls that I have never heard of while I was in India

Cousin marriage used to be considered acceptable among my community however, and this all just my experience. Other members correct me if Im wrong


Cousin marriage in Kerala seems to have been practiced to one degree or another by most Hindu castes except Brahmins. Muslims also have cousin marriage but this is probably not a Dravidian influence. Syrian Christians on the other hand seem pretty averse to it. even Knanaya people disallow it for first and second cousins.

There’s a lot of strang practices like polyandry which had things like all the brothers in one family sharing the same wife. Although I think this was mostly practiced amongst lower castes like ezhava.

A lot of these practices would be deemed deviant by today’s standards. It might be worth reading some of the old ethnographic studies of Kerala from the early 1900s as they detail a lot of old customs that are no longer practiced, I feel like I remember reading something about puberty ceremonies.

bmoney
10-17-2018, 01:12 PM
I ran some non-Brahmin non-Malayalee South Indians to see how our state differs in terms of Indo-Aryan ancestry

It seems to be present in certain groups, but absent in most

If you guys notice the Chenchus are the outlier being the only community where Indo-Aryan ancestry outweighs their Dravidian ancestry. They are mainly an Indo-Aryan + tribal/Adivasi fusion and look to be imports from Gangetic India

The Chenchus are noted for their R1a levels compared to other tribes, a paper called R1a native South Asian partly because of them!

he analyses of a pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians, bearing R1a1* haplogroup resolved the controversy of origin of R1a1*. The conclusion was drawn on the basis of: i) presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal populations such as, Saharia (present study) and Chenchu tribe in high frequency, ii) the highest ever reported presence of R1a* (ancestral haplogroup of R1a1*) in Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharia tribe, and iii) associated averaged phylogenetic ages of R1a* (~18,478 years) and R1a1* (~13,768 years) in India. The study supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins.

The Rellis also have slightly higher Indo-Aryan compared to Dravidian

On the whole though, the Malayalees I ran before score higher Indo-Aryan than everyone in the dataset bar the Kapus, Chenchus and Rellis being the only ones with comparable levels

https://i.imgur.com/kNo1HGm.png

vishankar
10-17-2018, 02:24 PM
nope..niece marriage is not known in kerala.

vishankar
10-17-2018, 02:26 PM
@bmoney....Is it not possible to use Jatt ( haryana or punjab) instead of gujarati brahmin /UP brahmin as a substrate for indo- aryan...?

BMG
10-17-2018, 04:59 PM
It would be interesting to see the St. Thomas Christians of Mar Sapor and Mar Proth figures on this model. Being from the Middle East as well, they score very similarly to the Knanaya in other models. In reality however they are the lost ethnic group among the St. Thomas Christians, with many having mingled with with Native Nasrani after their arrival in the 9th century. Even today there are only a handful of families who can say with confidence that they are the descendants of these migrant merchants. There are a few of them on Harappa.

Who are they

parasar
10-17-2018, 06:05 PM
I ran some non-Brahmin non-Malayalee South Indians to see how our state differs in terms of Indo-Aryan ancestry

It seems to be present in certain groups, but absent in most

If you guys notice the Chenchus are the outlier being the only community where Indo-Aryan ancestry outweighs their Dravidian ancestry. They are mainly an Indo-Aryan + tribal/Adivasi fusion and look to be imports from Gangetic India

The Chenchus are noted for their R1a levels compared to other tribes, a paper called R1a native South Asian partly because of them!

he analyses of a pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians, bearing R1a1* haplogroup resolved the controversy of origin of R1a1*. The conclusion was drawn on the basis of: i) presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal populations such as, Saharia (present study) and Chenchu tribe in high frequency, ii) the highest ever reported presence of R1a* (ancestral haplogroup of R1a1*) in Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharia tribe, and iii) associated averaged phylogenetic ages of R1a* (~18,478 years) and R1a1* (~13,768 years) in India. The study supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins.

The Rellis also have slightly higher Indo-Aryan compared to Dravidian

On the whole though, the Malayalees I ran before score higher Indo-Aryan than everyone in the dataset bar the Kapus, Chenchus and Rellis being the only ones with comparable levels
...

Per Manu Chunchu are a kin to Andhras*. Chunchu are listed by Manu as forest dwelling hunter gatherers who are sons of Brahmans by Vaideha wives.

*Andhras: According to the Peutingerian Tables, the Andrae-Indi lived along the banks of the Ganges, further to the east of Magadh.

bmoney
10-18-2018, 12:42 AM
Per Manu Chunchu are a kin to Andhras*. Chunchu are listed by Manu as forest dwelling hunter gatherers who are sons of Brahmans by Vaideha wives.

*Andhras: According to the Peutingerian Tables, the Andrae-Indi lived along the banks of the Ganges, further to the east of Magadh.

Interesting, some fact in that fiction it seems

bmoney
10-18-2018, 01:06 AM
@Traject could you run @vishankar using the moderns combo I used

For ancients I think SISBA3, AASI by Traject, Sintashta MLBA should cover him

Kalashviv_scaled,0.052359,-0.052808,-0.150471,0.100776,-0.071398,0.058846,0.001645,0.01223,0.031701,0.0235 08,-0.011042,0.002398,0.002379,-0.000826,-0.003936,-0.004641,0.002868,-0.001774,-0.003645,-0.000875,0.01123,0.003339,-0.000863,-0.002892,0.002515

traject
10-18-2018, 01:11 AM
Mom:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.8% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.2% italian (hgdp) @ 1.55
2 92.7% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.3% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 1.63
3 92.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.4% romanian-a (behar) @ 1.69
4 92.7% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.3% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 1.74
5 93.2% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.8% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 1.88
6 93.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.9% french (hgdp) @ 1.88
7 58.8% kerala-nair (harappa) + 41.2% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.92
8 92.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.4% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 1.95
9 82% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 18% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.02
10 93.2% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.8% hungarian (behar) @ 2.03
11 68.8% chamar (metspalu) + 31.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.06
12 92.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 7.4% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 2.1
13 93.3% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.7% slovenian (xing) @ 2.11
14 80.8% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.12
15 76.8% kol (metspalu) + 23.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.18
16 78.2% kol (metspalu) + 21.8% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.18
17 89% ap-reddy (harappa) + 11% romanian-b (behar) @ 2.19
18 76.8% hallaki (reich) + 23.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.2
19 93.5% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.23
20 64.8% dharkar (metspalu) + 35.2% cochin-jew (behar) @ 2.23

Dad:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.3% velama (metspalu) + 24.7% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1
2 55.9% vysya (reich) + 44.1% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.13
3 70% velama (metspalu) + 30% punjabi (harappa) @ 1.13
4 69.6% velama (metspalu) + 30.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.22
5 64.6% tn-brahmin (xing) + 35.4% ap-reddy (harappa) @ 1.23
6 71.5% tn-brahmin (xing) + 28.5% velama (metspalu) @ 1.24
7 81.2% karnataka (harappa) + 18.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.26
8 70.1% velama (metspalu) + 29.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.28
9 78.5% tn-brahmin (xing) + 21.5% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.3
10 96.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 3.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.31
11 71.3% velama (metspalu) + 28.7% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 1.31
12 75.3% velama (metspalu) + 24.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.34
13 60.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 39.2% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.34
14 96.1% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 3.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.34
15 96.4% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 3.6% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.34
16 68% tn-brahmin (xing) + 32% karnataka (harappa) @ 1.35
17 69.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 30.8% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.35
18 79.1% velama (metspalu) + 20.9% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.36
19 60% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 40% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.38
20 58.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 41.6% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.39

Sister:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 19.8% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.64
2 75.6% hallaki (reich) + 24.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.64
3 75.6% kol (metspalu) + 24.4% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.67
4 80.7% lodi (reich) + 19.3% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.67
5 68.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 31.9% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.68
6 67.7% chamar (metspalu) + 32.3% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.68
7 64.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 35.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74
8 77% kol (metspalu) + 23% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.74
9 53.7% sakilli (chaubey) + 46.3% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.76
10 81% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 19% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.82
11 88.9% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 11.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.82
12 79.5% lodi (reich) + 20.5% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.82
13 88.2% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 11.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.83
14 97.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 2.5% yemen-jew (behar) @ 1.84
15 74.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 25.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.85
16 74.3% hallaki (reich) + 25.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.85
17 97.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 2.5% saudi (behar) @ 1.87
18 63.9% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 36.1% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 1.87
19 63.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 36.6% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.89
20 97.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 2.5% bedouin (hgdp) @ 1.89

Me:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80% kerala-nair (harappa) + 20% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.59
2 85.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 14.8% bengali (harappa) @ 1.88
3 96% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4% kharia (chaubey) @ 1.92
4 78.9% kerala-nair (harappa) + 21.1% caribbean-indian (harappa) @ 1.92
5 94.3% kerala-nair (harappa) + 5.7% sahariya (reich) @ 1.93
6 96.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 3.8% bonda (chaubey) @ 1.93
7 95.9% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4.1% ho (chaubey) @ 1.93
8 96% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4% savara (chaubey) @ 1.94
9 96.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 3.8% juang (chaubey) @ 1.95
10 91.9% kerala-nair (harappa) + 8.1% satnami (reich) @ 1.95
11 95.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4.4% santhal (reich) @ 1.95
12 77.5% kerala-nair (harappa) + 22.5% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 1.95
13 76.5% kerala-nair (harappa) + 23.5% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.96
14 95.5% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4.5% asur (chaubey) @ 1.97
15 89.9% kerala-nair (harappa) + 10.1% tharu (reich) @ 1.97
16 74.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 25.4% bihari (harappa) @ 1.97
17 95.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4.8% great-andamanese (reich) @ 2.02
18 95.9% kerala-nair (harappa) + 4.1% onge (reich) @ 2.03
19 93.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 6.4% gond (metspalu) @ 2.04
20 91.1% kerala-nair (harappa) + 8.9% chenchu (metspalu) @ 2.06

traject
10-18-2018, 01:32 AM
@Traject could you run @vishankar using the moderns combo I used

For ancients I think SISBA3, AASI by Traject, Sintashta MLBA should cover him

Kalashviv_scaled,0.052359,-0.052808,-0.150471,0.100776,-0.071398,0.058846,0.001645,0.01223,0.031701,0.0235 08,-0.011042,0.002398,0.002379,-0.000826,-0.003936,-0.004641,0.002868,-0.001774,-0.003645,-0.000875,0.01123,0.003339,-0.000863,-0.002892,0.002515

Moderns:
26767

EDIT:

Ancients:
26768

bmoney
10-18-2018, 01:40 AM
Moderns:
26767

Interesting he scores like me with more admix

I usually strip 15% outliers and above out from my runs

vishankar
10-18-2018, 02:52 AM
yeah.. I would say compared to bmoney more AASI and velama influence,but still significant Brahmin influenced... surprised about that 1.4 yemenite jew though!..thanks a lot to Traject!:) and bmoney:)

vishankar
10-18-2018, 03:16 AM
this is from the book- human biology of the chenchus- by the anthropological survey of India..." According to one legend,there used to be a couple living around Srisailam the present temple town.They were wandering in the forest and were sad as they were not getting any children .Once, they accidentally met Lord Mallikarjuna,to whom they prayed for children.Th lord granted their wish with the condition that the child should be dedicated to Him.Later,they got the child, and the grown up girl used to wander in the jungle.She was called chenchita( The girl who lived under a [I]Chettu)
.One day she came across Lord Mallikarjuna ,fell in love with him and the descendants of this girl are called as chenchus."

All these tales including Parasar's story illustrate the paternal ancestry of the chenchu to be northern/indo-aryan speakers .

vishankar
10-18-2018, 03:22 AM
this is from the book- human biology of the chenchus- by the anthropological survey of India..." According to one legend,there used to be a couple living around Srisailam the present temple town.They were wandering in the forest and were sad as they were not getting any children .Once, they accidentally met Lord Mallikarjuna,to whom they prayed for children.Th lord granted their wish with the condition that the child should be dedicated to Him.Later,they got the child, and the grown up girl used to wander in the jungle.She was called chenchita( The girl who lived under a [I]Chettu)
.One day she came across Lord Mallikarjuna ,fell in love with him and the descendants of this girl are called as chenchus."

All these tales including Parasar's story illustrate the paternal ancestry of the chenchu to be northern/indo-aryan speakers .

bmoney
10-18-2018, 03:25 AM
Moderns:
26767

EDIT:

Ancients:
26768

There needs to be a recent West Asian source as Sintashta is inflated for the Knanaya due to taking up unrelated Barcin

Could you add Levant_BA to the run and replace Sintashta with Khvalynsk for more accurate steppe %ages

Thomas48
10-18-2018, 05:23 AM
Who are they

My fault, I should have checked these results myself first before posting. I was under the impression that they would score very similar to the Knanaya but it seems that they match very closely to other Nasrani, likely due to admixture and patterns of exogamy.

This is from a prominent Nasrani Family who claims origins from the Mar Sapor and Proth group:

Population
S-Indian 49.06
Baloch 34.80
Caucasian 6.04
NE-Euro 3.66
SE-Asian 0.12
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.84
Papuan 0.76
American -
Beringian 0.73
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.96
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

BMG
10-18-2018, 05:30 AM
My fault, I should have checked these results myself first before posting. I was under the impression that they would score very similar to the Knanaya but it seems that they match very closely to other Nasrani, likely due to admixture and patterns of exogamy.

This is from a prominent Nasrani Family who claims origins from the Mar Sapor and Proth group:

Population
S-Indian 49.06
Baloch 34.80
Caucasian 6.04
NE-Euro 3.66
SE-Asian 0.12
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.84
Papuan 0.76
American -
Beringian 0.73
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.96
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Muthalaly family don't claim origins from mar sabor and proth as far as i know

bmoney
10-18-2018, 03:27 PM
@bmoney....Is it not possible to use Jatt ( haryana or punjab) instead of gujarati brahmin /UP brahmin as a substrate for indo- aryan...?

Good idea, I used Pamiri Tajik who would have been the closest modern version to the Central Asian Sintashta type tribes and lo and behold great correlation to Proto Indo European Khvalnysk

I did some massive runs for South Indian samples with a moderns run next to ancients so you can see how correlated the components are

ordered by Tajik Rushan and Khvalynsk - Tamil Brahmins on top as expected followed by myself and vishankar with other Keralite users not too far behind. Spicyshuwa's dad (Deccani Muslim) is also reasonably high steppe for a South Indian.

In fact vishankar and I score similarly in both runs showing our common origins (he's a more AASI shifted version of me)

https://i.imgur.com/oybkj1B.png

ordered by Yemen Jew and Levant_Chl - Misanthropy (Chaush Deccani) first as expected followed by Kerala Knanaya. Trajects family also gets this signal separating his fam from Nairs. Some of the Sintashta steppe gets split into Levant_Chl hence vishankar and I get our Tajik Rushan broken down into proto Indo European EHG (Khvalynsk) and steppe related Barcin/Med

https://i.imgur.com/Qh1M0Rn.png

ordered by AASI and Paniya (outside what the IVC scores)

highest in tribals as expected

https://i.imgur.com/03PEJPx.png

Ordered by Velama/SISBA3 (IVC)

As expected, highest in Andhra middle castes Kamma/Reddy users, Traject's Dad/Traject +Knanaya, Tamil Brahmins and myself. Vishankar and the rest of Trajects family are not as high, trading steppe or IVC for AASI

https://i.imgur.com/kwvJNlP.png

vishankar
10-18-2018, 08:13 PM
thanks bmoney.... i think there could be a pattern in these ....with southern kerala nairs and syrian christians differing from northern malabar nairs primarily with respect to more AASI and a little less steppe...wish i could construct the above tables:)

bmoney
10-18-2018, 11:05 PM
thanks bmoney.... i think there could be a pattern in these ....with southern kerala nairs and syrian christians differing from northern malabar nairs primarily with respect to more AASI and a little less steppe...wish i could construct the above tables:)

Depends on if they were 'original stock' Nairs, which you and I seem to be. Southern Nairs would have initially just been northern Nairs who migrated south at some point in time.

Assimilated Nairs wont score the same IMO

Also we need to see more Syrian Christian, Ezhava/Thiyya and Nair samples, I'm surprised by the relatively high steppe Traject's family is scoring compared to Telugu middle castes for example

Rustyshakelford
10-18-2018, 11:31 PM
Depends on if they were 'original stock' Nairs, which you and I seem to be. Southern Nairs would have initially just been northern Nairs who migrated south at some point in time.

Assimilated Nairs wont score the same IMO

Also we need to see more Syrian Christian, Ezhava/Thiyya and Nair samples, I'm surprised by the relatively high steppe Traject's family is scoring compared to Telugu middle castes for example

Ezhava/thiyya is a big blind spot, wish we had someone on here. Same with Kerala Muslims.

bmoney
10-19-2018, 12:12 AM
Ezhava/thiyya is a big blind spot, wish we had someone on here. Same with Kerala Muslims.

Muslims are mostly converts from Ezhava/Thiyyas and sometimes Nairs

But yes they are a huge demographic particularly in northern Kerala

spicyshuwa&empanadas
10-19-2018, 10:37 AM
Moderns:
26767

EDIT:

Ancients:
26768

Here are my dad's just for some perspective

26796

vishankar
10-19-2018, 12:32 PM
I was just wondering here whether the female nairs will have more of the velama component as this one! (menon lady in an earlier post by BMG), compared to males.....knowing that immigrant populations usually have shortage of females...

vishankar
10-19-2018, 12:38 PM
just need some help to understand these tables....266182661826619....
does the expansion age in YBP mean that the castes stopped getting new additions of haplotypes after that time?....and what exavtly does population expansion mean?

friends...no answers to my queries yet?:(:)

BMG
10-19-2018, 02:37 PM
One of the malayali Y40 have uploaded in yfull . He belongs to Y37 subclade as expected . The only one sample at yfull that doesn't belong to either Y37 or YP294 is a tamil hindu

parasar
10-19-2018, 04:08 PM
One of the malayali Y40 have uploaded in yfull . He belongs to Y37 subclade as expected . The only one sample at yfull that doesn't belong to either Y37 or YP294 is a tamil hindu

Yes he appeared to be a separate line under M12253 potentially parallel to Y38 as the Y38 read was not clear, but YFull has confidence he is Y38+

bmoney
10-20-2018, 03:39 AM
friends...no answers to my queries yet?:(:)

I'm not sure i think they mean when the y-line expanded and what size the founder population was

its not very clear to me however and not sure how reliable the science is

vishankar
10-20-2018, 03:46 AM
from the comments about that shodhganga study..from parasar, bmoney bmg et al...i guess it is safe to conclude that the data cannot be relied on much...right?..

bmoney
10-20-2018, 03:54 AM
I was just wondering here whether the female nairs will have more of the velama component as this one! (menon lady in an earlier post by BMG), compared to males.....knowing that immigrant populations usually have shortage of females...

I think that would have been the case initially, ie proto-Nair male assimilating Velama adna via mid-caste local females but endogamy would have taken place 1000 years ago at least meaning males and females now resemble each other

The Syrian Christian resembling Menon could be a converted Syrian Christian, or that type of local admixture exists in her area which would affect the males too

vishankar
10-20-2018, 02:48 PM
yeah...possible but when you talk of "assimilated" nairs, the other way occurence has also been there where higher castes( for eg the north malabr poduval) have been assimilated into the nair fold.....among syrians I do remember reading about the manigramakkar merchant guild ( possible nasranis) who were absorbed into the nair fold during saivite revival... otherwise the syrian christians are predominantly recruits from the hindu upper castes...

BMG
10-20-2018, 04:20 PM
The Syrian Christians seems to be a mix of assortment of castes .I think that is why there is subtle variation among the Syrian Christians . Despite that there is a common base to all the non dalit population of Kerala . The dalit population seems to be starkly different . The tribals too vary very much from general population .
Compared to Syrian Christians the knanaya seems to rather similar to each other . It is surprising that they have kept their west Asian signal intact after all.these years . Endogamy should have played a big part in that . While the Syrian christians being less strict in endogamy the west Asian input might have washed down as opined by Thomas48 .

vishankar
11-03-2018, 04:42 PM
My mtdna is U1 ....there is no" kerala mt dna gp":)...which is why I posted here....from what I gather very rare to have U1 among naIRS? Usually seen among syrian christians/ cochin jews?

BMG
11-04-2018, 01:20 PM
I was searching about vaidyan families among syrian christians . I already knew about thevalakkara vaidyan family and now i came across another vaidyan family named kolath based on pathanamthitta. My family doesn't belong to both .Their earliest family name is Attil . Earlier i had thought our family line will be related to thevalakkara vaidyan family . But it seems they are not as the ydna from thevalakkara vaidyan family is H1a while my family have C5 . I also came to know there are many ezhava families who also use vaidyan title . Many royal vaidyans of south kerala were actually from ezhava community . One of the famous ezhava vaidyan named itty achuthan vaidyan was from kolathu family(shared by a syrian christian vaidyan family ) . So i guess many of these vaidyan families might actually be ezhava converts rather than brahmin converts .
One of the Muthalaly family have Ydna J2a and one Panikker family have ydna R1a1a . The famous alappatt family have ydna J2b-Z628 which is most probably of middle eastern descent . One of the member of Manappurathu family have ydna J2a and one male member of Palakunnathu family have ydna R2 . They claim descend from so called pakalomattom family . Another Pakalomattam descended family Manakalathil have ydna J2a-L534 . Among kunnamkulam based orthodox christian families three belonged to L3 and one belonged to R1a1a .

Rustyshakelford
11-04-2018, 07:29 PM
I was searching about vaidyan families among syrian christians . I already knew about thevalakkara vaidyan family and now i came across another vaidyan family named kolath based on pathanamthitta. My family doesn't belong to both .Their earliest family name is Attil . Earlier i had thought our family line will be related to thevalakkara vaidyan family . But it seems they are not as the ydna from thevalakkara vaidyan family is H1a while my family have C5 . I also came to know there are many ezhava families who also use vaidyan title . Many royal vaidyans of south kerala were actually from ezhava community . One of the famous ezhava vaidyan named itty achuthan vaidyan was from kolathu family(shared by a syrian christian vaidyan family ) . So i guess many of these vaidyan families might actually be ezhava converts rather than brahmin converts .
One of the Muthalaly family have Ydna J2a and one Panikker family have ydna R1a1a . The famous alappatt family have ydna J2b-Z628 which is most probably of middle eastern descent . One of the member of Manappurathu family have ydna J2a and one male member of Palakunnathu family have ydna R2 . They claim descend from so called pakalomattom family . Another Pakalomattam descended family Manakalathil have ydna J2a-L534 . Among kunnamkulam based orthodox christian families three belonged to L3 and one belonged to R1a1a .

Interesting stuff, definitely makes sense for the upper echelons of the ezhava community to convert as they were probably already relatively wealthy at the time of conversion. Becoming christian afforded more tax breaks and greater social mobility so it seems like a logical choice.

I had heard a long time back that the Manakalathil J2a-L534 had some Jewish priestly connections with the 'cohen model haplotype', is this still true? Maybe Thomas would know also since Manakalathil is the guy that runs the FTDNA project.

I'm intrigued by the Kunnamkulam L3's since I had heard a long time back that another family named "kollenore" also from Thrissur tested with the same. L3 seems to be the dominant Y lineage among the knanaya whos ultimate origins are in Thrissur as well, so i'm curious if these L3's all came from a common source.

bmoney
11-04-2018, 11:18 PM
The Syrian Christians seems to be a mix of assortment of castes .I think that is why there is subtle variation among the Syrian Christians . Despite that there is a common base to all the non dalit population of Kerala . The dalit population seems to be starkly different . The tribals too vary very much from general population .
Compared to Syrian Christians the knanaya seems to rather similar to each other . It is surprising that they have kept their west Asian signal intact after all.these years . Endogamy should have played a big part in that . While the Syrian christians being less strict in endogamy the west Asian input might have washed down as opined by Thomas48 .

I summarise Kerala like this (using some guesswork):

Ambalavasi, Nair, Brahmin: Majority Indo-Aryan base with significant Velama-like Thiyya/Ezhava admix. The Nair/Ambalavasi community also assimilated groups from the segment below, and with a cline of more Velama ancestry the further south you are in Kerala.

Syrian Christian/Thiyya/Ezhava/Muslims: Velama-like Thiyya/Ezhava base with conversions from different communities inc Nairs and significant Middle-Eastern ancestry in certain subcommunities such as the Knanaya and Thangals

Kerala SC such as fishermen, Latin-rite Catholics etc: predominantly Paniya-like tribal ancestry with significant Velama like Thiyya/Ezhava ancestry

Wayanad tribals: tribals with 20-25% Velama-like ancestry. On nmonte the Paniya references actually score higher Sintashta consistently compared to actual Velamas, so its possible that they have admixture from various communities upon contact

vishankar
11-05-2018, 12:51 PM
This is actually a plausible theory!....also y dna H,J2,R2,r1, this sort of ydna diversity is mainly seen in Ezhavas I presume....among nambudiri brahmins the healers actually are considered inferior to the priest proper, so there were reasons for them to convert to christianity ...

BMG
11-05-2018, 04:27 PM
Interesting stuff, definitely makes sense for the upper echelons of the ezhava community to convert as they were probably already relatively wealthy at the time of conversion. Becoming christian afforded more tax breaks and greater social mobility so it seems like a logical choice.

I had heard a long time back that the Manakalathil J2a-L534 had some Jewish priestly connections with the 'cohen model haplotype', is this still true? Maybe Thomas would know also since Manakalathil is the guy that runs the FTDNA project.

I'm intrigued by the Kunnamkulam L3's since I had heard a long time back that another family named "kollenore" also from Thrissur tested with the same. L3 seems to be the dominant Y lineage among the knanaya whos ultimate origins are in Thrissur as well, so i'm curious if these L3's all came from a common source.

Only other J-L534 is a srilankan tamil and the subclade is actually 2700 year old . So in my opinion they probably arrived with farmers into south asia . This subclade is not found among any jewish populations but could be found among iranians and central asians . A Closely related subclade is found in a zoroastrian from india . On the other hand J-L243 is possibly west asian ,jewish or of south european origin .
Regarding the kunnamkulam L3 one of the family was Kollannur . other ones are Chiramel and Cheeroth . My L3 line have DYS385a-b 10-17 unlike all others in syrian christian project who have 7-16 . I think they might have common origins .If the Kollenore from ftdna project is from Kunnamkulam then others also might be similar .Another L3 from the project apart from the knanaya is thattunkal which i think is from kottayam .
Rusty have you tested your ydna ?

Rustyshakelford
11-05-2018, 06:59 PM
Only other J-L534 is a srilankan tamil and the subclade is actually 2700 year old . So in my opinion they probably arrived with farmers into south asia . This subclade is not found among any jewish populations but could be found among iranians and central asians . A Closely related subclade is found in a zoroastrian from india . On the other hand J-L243 is possibly west asian ,jewish or of south european origin .
Regarding the kunnamkulam L3 one of the family was Kollannur . other ones are Chiramel and Cheeroth . My L3 line have DYS385a-b 10-17 unlike all others in syrian christian project who have 7-16 . I think they might have common origins .If the Kollenore from ftdna project is from Kunnamkulam then others also might be similar .Another L3 from the project apart from the knanaya is thattunkal which i think is from kottayam .
Rusty have you tested your ydna ?

No not yet. I was actually going to reach out to you about your thoughts on Y-SEQ. someone in a different thread recommended it and im wondering if it would be a better option than FTDNA. Y-SEQ " Alpha-Beta" STR panel tests the same number of STRs as the Y37 on FTDNA but at half the price. Am i missing something here or is this a great deal? After i know the haplogroup i was thinking of ordering one of thr haplogroup panels which would give me my terminal SNPs. Would this be a good way of going about it or should i just wait a little bit and get the Big-Y 500 from FTDNA?
testing with FTDNA gives me acess to their database but would it even be worth it since im likely to get a southasian haplogroup and probably wont have many matches on there anyway?

BMG
11-06-2018, 02:56 AM
No not yet. I was actually going to reach out to you about your thoughts on Y-SEQ. someone in a different thread recommended it and im wondering if it would be a better option than FTDNA. Y-SEQ " Alpha-Beta" STR panel tests the same number of STRs as the Y37 on FTDNA but at half the price. Am i missing something here or is this a great deal? After i know the haplogroup i was thinking of ordering one of thr haplogroup panels which would give me my terminal SNPs. Would this be a good way of going about it or should i just wait a little bit and get the Big-Y 500 from FTDNA?
testing with FTDNA gives me acess to their database but would it even be worth it since im likely to get a southasian haplogroup and probably wont have many matches on there anyway?
Yseq is a better option than ftdna as it is cheaper and little more flexible and quicker too . Big Y is too costly and I do not recommend but if you are ready to spend it would be helpful for others in same haplogroup as new SNPs could be discovered . If you get your terminal snp under. $200 it is a big deal

BMG
11-06-2018, 03:15 AM
I summarise Kerala like this (using some guesswork):

Ambalavasi, Nair, Brahmin: Majority Indo-Aryan base with significant Velama-like Thiyya/Ezhava admix. The Nair/Ambalavasi community also assimilated groups from the segment below, and with a cline of more Velama ancestry the further south you are in Kerala.

Syrian Christian/Thiyya/Ezhava/Muslims: Velama-like Thiyya/Ezhava base with conversions from different communities inc Nairs and significant Middle-Eastern ancestry in certain subcommunities such as the Knanaya and Thangals

Kerala SC such as fishermen, Latin-rite Catholics etc: predominantly Paniya-like tribal ancestry with significant Velama like Thiyya/Ezhava ancestry

Wayanad tribals: tribals with 20-25% Velama-like ancestry. On nmonte the Paniya references actually score higher Sintashta consistently compared to actual Velamas, so its possible that they have admixture from various communities upon contact
I don't have full confidence in nmonte results . I think it is better to confirm nmonte results using other tools like dstats.
The base ancestry of malayali farming communities s a mix of early hunter gatherers and Iranian farmers . Traditionally non farmers do have less of Iranian farmer ancestry . Further the Indo Aryan migrations got superimposed to the existing genetic pool with upper castes receiving more input than lower castes .

bmoney
11-06-2018, 04:05 AM
I don't have full confidence in nmonte results . I think it is better to confirm nmonte results using other tools like dstats.
The base ancestry of malayali farming communities s a mix of early hunter gatherers and Iranian farmers . Traditionally non farmers do have less of Iranian farmer ancestry . Further the Indo Aryan migrations got superimposed to the existing genetic pool with upper castes receiving more input than lower castes .

We're unlikely to have dstat analysis for Malayali communities anytime soon but yes it would add validity to G25 analysis

I don't think theres any known examples of G25 being significantly different to formal methods though