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vishankar
11-06-2018, 03:28 PM
YSEQ looks good...much cheaper than ftdna..but do they do autosomal testing?

Thomas48
11-07-2018, 05:59 PM
Interesting stuff, definitely makes sense for the upper echelons of the ezhava community to convert as they were probably already relatively wealthy at the time of conversion. Becoming christian afforded more tax breaks and greater social mobility so it seems like a logical choice.

I had heard a long time back that the Manakalathil J2a-L534 had some Jewish priestly connections with the 'cohen model haplotype', is this still true? Maybe Thomas would know also since Manakalathil is the guy that runs the FTDNA project.

I'm intrigued by the Kunnamkulam L3's since I had heard a long time back that another family named "kollenore" also from Thrissur tested with the same. L3 seems to be the dominant Y lineage among the knanaya whos ultimate origins are in Thrissur as well, so i'm curious if these L3's all came from a common source.

I've sent Jacob an email, I'll share his response.

Also I've collected two more Knanaya samples:


Knanaya #30
Population
S-Indian 46.65
Baloch 34.48
Caucasian 8.83
NE-Euro 0.31
SE-Asian 0.95
Siberian 1.76
NE-Asian 0.44
Papuan 0.94
American 0.28
Beringian 1.08
Mediterranean 1.83
SW-Asian 2.46
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Knanaya #31
Population
S-Indian 45.16
Baloch 32.83
Caucasian 10.16
NE-Euro 2.55
SE-Asian 1.64
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.96
Papuan 0.69
American 1.61
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.42
SW-Asian 3.92
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

bmoney
11-08-2018, 12:08 AM
I've sent Jacob an email, I'll share his response.

Also I've collected two more Knanaya samples:


Knanaya #30
Population
S-Indian 46.65
Baloch 34.48
Caucasian 8.83
NE-Euro 0.31
SE-Asian 0.95
Siberian 1.76
NE-Asian 0.44
Papuan 0.94
American 0.28
Beringian 1.08
Mediterranean 1.83
SW-Asian 2.46
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Knanaya #31
Population
S-Indian 45.16
Baloch 32.83
Caucasian 10.16
NE-Euro 2.55
SE-Asian 1.64
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.96
Papuan 0.69
American 1.61
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.42
SW-Asian 3.92
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

the consistent elevated SW Asian and Caucasian (compared to NE Euro) is the clearest non-South Asian signal

Also the sometimes complete lack of NE Euro suggests to me that Knanaya Christians (and Syrian Christians by extension) mingled with 1st Chera Tamilakam Dravidians and predate Nambudiris in Kerala

Thomas48
11-08-2018, 07:54 PM
Here’s Jacob’s response:

“Based on Ydna STR markers, our haplotype matches a Cohen group exactly on 12markers and even upto 19 /25 markers. This was the early days of genetic geneology and this was considered a very significant match and it was thought that we shared a paternal ancestor in less than 2000 years. of my STR matches of 150+ on 12 markers 95% of them are Jewish Cohen descent and only my known cousins ( 6 or seven of them) would be the exception However now Deep SNP's have been identified under walk the ydna project and then later under Big Y and on SNP's we match up to L26 and may be a couple of markers downstream, however we have diverged from them then on. However we still have a common ancestor somewhere may be 4-5000 years back. However seeing the STR matching we should be closer and we may still be awaiting for an SNP which is yet to be found.”

Heres Knanaya 32:

Population
S-Indian 46.92
Baloch 33.91
Caucasian 9.03
NE-Euro 0.93
SE-Asian 0.96
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.68
Papuan 0.46
American 0.48
Beringian 0.80
Mediterranean 2.36
SW-Asian 2.47
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

An interesting elevated Mediterranean in this one.

BMG
11-09-2018, 03:35 AM
Here’s Jacob’s response:

“Based on Ydna STR markers, our haplotype matches a Cohen group exactly on 12markers and even upto 19 /25 markers. This was the early days of genetic geneology and this was considered a very significant match and it was thought that we shared a paternal ancestor in less than 2000 years. of my STR matches of 150+ on 12 markers 95% of them are Jewish Cohen descent and only my known cousins ( 6 or seven of them) would be the exception However now Deep SNP's have been identified under walk the ydna project and then later under Big Y and on SNP's we match up to L26 and may be a couple of markers downstream, however we have diverged from them then on. However we still have a common ancestor somewhere may be 4-5000 years back. However seeing the STR matching we should be closer and we may still be awaiting for an SNP which is yet to be found.”

Actually he belongs to L24+ L192.2+ FGC 30649+ L534+
There are at least three major jewish subclades under L24 ,the main being under L254 branch and another one under L243 branch . There are few more small branches but it is insignificant . Under L192.2 which is around 7000 years old there are no Jews so far . Among the people confirmed under FGC30649 which is 4700 years as per yfull are 1 Kazakh , One Turk or Kurd from Dersim , One Talysh from Azerbaijan , One ossetian , One Armenian , One Georgian Laz , One Parsi from India and One Brahmin from South India .Few other Talysh ,Kurds and Kazakhs are presumed to be FGC 30649+ . His terminal SNP L534 is found in another srilankan Tamil . That is why I think it is a North Iranian/Central Asian subclades which migrated to South India probably along with Iranian farmers .
To give a perspective to the timeline my own R1a- Y7 line before 4700 years ago was at Z93 stage whose descendants are now spread into a wide geographic area from British isles to Srilanka.

BMG
11-09-2018, 03:36 AM
Duplicate

vishankar
11-12-2018, 03:08 AM
some information on Thiyya Y DNA- from the book written by dr n c shyamalan( north africa to north malabar) , he is manoj night shyamalan's father....his Y haplo is L-M20, and mitochondrial dna is H....of course some of the inferences he draws are weird to say the least!!!!....also this statement - " the genetic marker for the thiyya group in general is KLM9/M20".....The book is quite readable save for the inferences the author draws from his DNA results!

bmoney
11-12-2018, 05:16 AM
some information on Thiyya Y DNA- from the book written by dr n c shyamalan( north africa to north malabar) , he is manoj night shyamalan's father....his Y haplo is L-M20, and mitochondrial dna is H....of course some of the inferences he draws are weird to say the least!!!!....also this statement - " the genetic marker for the thiyya group in general is KLM9/M20".....The book is quite readable save for the inferences the author draws from his DNA results!

L-M20, specifically L-M27 (not L1a2 L-M357) is likely a pre-Brahmin Dravidian Zagrosian agriculturalist haplogroup and is likely one of the major Thiyya/Ezhava haplogroups along with H1 and R2.

L-M20 levels in modern Uttar Pradesh is quite low

bmoney
11-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Running all Kerala user samples using Pegasus latest calculator with Velamas and Paniyas for comparison

https://i.imgur.com/TsnrWBw.png

Rustyshakelford
11-12-2018, 08:30 PM
Running all Kerala user samples using Pegasus latest calculator with Velamas and Paniyas for comparison

https://i.imgur.com/TsnrWBw.png

You and vishankar with highest steppe as expected. Is there overlap between BMAC and excess West Eurasian? I’ve noticed the Knanaya average has noticeably higher BMAC according to this calc.

bmoney
11-12-2018, 11:11 PM
You and vishankar with highest steppe as expected. Is there overlap between BMAC and excess West Eurasian? I’ve noticed the Knanaya average has noticeably higher BMAC according to this calc.

Yep. Your actual Middle Eastern ancestry is being fitted into BMAC (and excess West Eurasian) due to shared ancient Basal Eurasian ancestry.

Interesting how Sintashta seems to repel Middle Eastern adna. I would have thought it would have gone there due to shared Barcin among modern Middle-Easterners, but I guess the BMAC is a closer fit for them

vishankar
11-13-2018, 02:20 PM
still there is some pontic steppe in the knanaya,!...the velamas appear to be IVC people...right?

bmoney
11-14-2018, 01:58 AM
still there is some pontic steppe in the knanaya,!...the velamas appear to be IVC people...right?

It appears Indo-Aryan admix is widespread in Kerala mid castes as I mentioned before, unlike Tamil Nadu and AP where it is not widespread outside Brahmins.

It could be Ashokan period Buddhist related or Brahmin post-Rashtrakuta/Second Chera related or both

Most Thiyyas/Ezhavas should also score between 1-5% IMO

Velamas along with Gujarati Patels are largely derived from a population similar to SISBA3 who we are assuming was similar to what the IVC peoples were like. Chad Rohlfsen from this forum believes IVC peoples where more southern shifted than SISBA3 and resembled the Irula more. So it depends on your definition of IVC.

Though I noticed 2 of the Velama samples on the tool have more southern AASI tribal admixture and one is basically 100% Gujarati Patel

BMG
11-14-2018, 02:56 PM
It appears Indo-Aryan admix is widespread in Kerala mid castes as I mentioned before, unlike Tamil Nadu and AP where it is not widespread outside Brahmins.

It could be Ashokan period Buddhist related or Brahmin post-Rashtrakuta/Second Chera related or both

Most Thiyyas/Ezhavas should also score between 1-5% IMO

Velamas along with Gujarati Patels are largely derived from a population similar to SISBA3 who we are assuming was similar to what the IVC peoples were like. Chad Rohlfsen from this forum believes IVC peoples where more southern shifted than SISBA3 and resembled the Irula more. So it depends on your definition of IVC.

Though I noticed 2 of the Velama samples on the tool have more southern AASI tribal admixture and one is basically 100% Gujarati Patel

That's what my thinking as well . I guess karnataka too follows similar pattern to kerala . I came across results of one gowda which i think is a non-brahmin surname from karnataka .

1 S-Indian 49.75
2 Baloch 33.94
3 Caucasian 6.46
4 SW-Asian 2.42
5 SE-Asian 2.33
6 NE-Euro 2.04
7 Papuan 1.62
8 Siberian 0.91
9 American 0.53

Rustyshakelford
11-14-2018, 05:18 PM
Indo Aryans might have moved along the west coast hence why Kerala and Karnataka got more admix than Andhra and Tamil Nadu. Still kind of strange how the Kerala Brahmin community is so minuscule though

vishankar
11-14-2018, 05:28 PM
it would be interesting to see the pontic steppe component in the kerala mid castes, not BMAC...good poser by Rusty about the minuscule kerala brahmin community...I guess the practice of only the elder son marrying nambudiri women, while the younger ones cohabited with nair ,ambalavasi and kshatriya ladies led to a population decline, also conversion to christianity and Islam have played a part.

bmoney
11-14-2018, 11:57 PM
it would be interesting to see the pontic steppe component in the kerala mid castes, not BMAC...good poser by Rusty about the minuscule kerala brahmin community...I guess the practice of only the elder son marrying nambudiri women, while the younger ones cohabited with nair ,ambalavasi and kshatriya ladies led to a population decline, also conversion to christianity and Islam have played a part.

Yeah they have largely been bred out so to speak, but I doubt the settling population was that large to begin with

They almost certainly came with soldiers, probably the bulk of which were proto-Nair/Bunt.

A small population like them cannot effectively control Kerala and change its language on their own; they certainly had their enablers who weren't allied to the Ay and Villavar/1st Chera Tamilakam rulers

bmoney
11-15-2018, 12:01 AM
That's what my thinking as well . I guess karnataka too follows similar pattern to kerala . I came across results of one gowda which i think is a non-brahmin surname from karnataka .

1 S-Indian 49.75
2 Baloch 33.94
3 Caucasian 6.46
4 SW-Asian 2.42
5 SE-Asian 2.33
6 NE-Euro 2.04
7 Papuan 1.62
8 Siberian 0.91
9 American 0.53

Yep, I have the same opinion on Karnataka, would be interesting to see if it plays out.

Kannadiga castes like Vokkaligas, Lingayats, Gowdas would be the ones to test.

And of more relevance to Kerala are Kodavas and Tulus

vishankar
11-16-2018, 05:19 PM
in family tree dna i realised that I share my Y hapgp with only one nair- annotated as remote cousin,closer matches were south canara brahmins( adiga) and possible iyer/iyengar,but my mt dna is very malayali...shared by malayali christians( not sure which sect)....but geographically seem to be the same enakulam/allapuzha belt...:)

Rustyshakelford
11-17-2018, 04:28 AM
Got my K36 report from LukaszM, heres the nmonte modeling he did:

2. FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)
"distance%=0.7596"
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,63.8
Cochin_Jew,8.8
Thakur,6.8
Jatt_Pahari,4
Sindhi,3
Meena,2
Mumbai_Jew,1.8
Kshatrija_UP,1.6
Gujarati_C,1.4
South_Brahmin,1.4
Makrani,0.8
Punjabi_1000genomes,0.8
Bihari_Brahmin,0.6
Pashtun_PAK,0.6
Baloch_IR,0.4
IQ_Kirkuk,0.4
Gujarati_D,0.2
IQ_Arab_Ninevah,0.2
IQ_Karbala,0.2
Iranian_Bandari,0.2
Kurd_Fayli_IQ,0.2
Lori,0.2
Meghawal,0.2
Muslim_UP,0.2
Velamas,0.2



nMonte3 with penalization=0
"distance%=0.6477"
Velamas,46
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,32.8
Makrani,15.2
Lebanon_Christian,4.6
Gujarati_D,0.8
Muslim_UP,0.6

bmoney
11-18-2018, 01:15 AM
Got my K36 report from LukaszM, heres the nmonte modeling he did:

2. FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)
"distance%=0.7596"
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,63.8
Cochin_Jew,8.8
Thakur,6.8
Jatt_Pahari,4
Sindhi,3
Meena,2
Mumbai_Jew,1.8
Kshatrija_UP,1.6
Gujarati_C,1.4
South_Brahmin,1.4
Makrani,0.8
Punjabi_1000genomes,0.8
Bihari_Brahmin,0.6
Pashtun_PAK,0.6
Baloch_IR,0.4
IQ_Kirkuk,0.4
Gujarati_D,0.2
IQ_Arab_Ninevah,0.2
IQ_Karbala,0.2
Iranian_Bandari,0.2
Kurd_Fayli_IQ,0.2
Lori,0.2
Meghawal,0.2
Muslim_UP,0.2
Velamas,0.2



nMonte3 with penalization=0
"distance%=0.6477"
Velamas,46
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,32.8
Makrani,15.2
Lebanon_Christian,4.6
Gujarati_D,0.8
Muslim_UP,0.6

Yep, as i expected you get exotic components like Lebanon_Christian and Makrani. Makrani/Baloch/Brahui here is unrealistic, its only mathematical as the calculator can find no population with the low steppe, high Iran N high Levant combo that the Knanaya score other than the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani. Its a unique trait shared by both that the Knanaya score via ME ancestry and the Gedrosians score due to NW Iranian founders who brought the language (Balochi) who superimposed ME ancestry on the native geographical base. In South Asia the ME/Levant ancestry usually only came via Indo-Aryan steppe (Sintashta) so all Indo-Aryan South Asians will have higher EHG than Levant_N due to proportions that came with Sintashta (much higher EHG). In certain pops like Shi'a and Pashtuns and Misanthrophys Chaush community, they might have non-Sintashta/Indo-Aryan related excess Levant from actual ME sources as well

this was what he did for me way back. Did he use G25 for your analysis?

[1] "distance%=3.2935"
South_Brahmin,75.4
Gujarat_B,6.6
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,4.4
Thakur ,3.8
Kshatrija_UP,3
Meghawal,1.8
Arain_Punjabi,1
Gujarati_A,0.8
Gujarati_D,0.8
Kalash,0.8
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Hakkipikki,0.2
Kurumba,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Velamas,0.2
Yadava,0.2


He gave me an extra one without South Brahmin (Tamil i think) because it was dominating my nmonte so much lol. Higher distance

[1] "distance%=3.5606"
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,43
Kshatrija_UP,21.4
Gujarat_B,11.8
Meghawal,5.2
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Kalash,0.4
Scheduled_Caste_Tamil_Nadu,0.4
Tamil_Ceylon,0.4
Gujarati_C,0.2
Kannadi,0.2
Meena,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Thakur ,4.8
Gujarati_D,3.8
Velamas,2
Gujarati_A,1.6
Tharus,1.4
Arain_Punjabi,1.2
Kurumba,1.2

In mine again you see that Shudra Gangetic Kurmi/Meghwal/Meena signal along with UP Kshatriya/Thakur who might have origins in the former communities.

Tamil Brahmin samples obscures my origins due to the Indo-Aryan + Dravidian-elite fusion combo that produced them which finds similarity in my genome. I might ask him to run it again without Tamil Brahmin samples.

I don't know what Cochin/Travancore is like, but Malabar has almost 0 Tamil influence historically whereas we do have Kannadiga and Tulu influence (my grandfather was fluent in both)

I also have some tribal South Indian admix around 2%. I think vishankar will score higher based on his nmonte

Vishankar could you do your G25 analysis? Just PM LukaszM your scores for the Eurogenes K36 gedmatch calc and pay a small fee and he does a huge report for you which is quite informative

BMG
11-18-2018, 05:47 AM
Yep, as i expected you get exotic components like Lebanon_Christian and Makrani. Makrani/Baloch/Brahui here is unrealistic, its only mathematical as the calculator can find no population with the low steppe, high Iran N high Levant combo that the Knanaya score other than the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani. Its a unique trait shared by both that the Knanaya score via ME ancestry and the Gedrosians score due to NW Iranian founders who brought the language (Balochi) who superimposed ME ancestry on the native geographical base. In South Asia the ME/Levant ancestry usually only came via Indo-Aryan steppe (Sintashta) so all Indo-Aryan South Asians will have higher EHG than Levant_N due to proportions that came with Sintashta (much higher EHG). In certain pops like Shi'a and Pashtuns and Misanthrophys Chaush community, they might have non-Sintashta/Indo-Aryan related excess Levant from actual ME sources as well

this was what he did for me way back. Did he use G25 for your analysis?

[1] "distance%=3.2935"
South_Brahmin,75.4
Gujarat_B,6.6
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,4.4
Thakur ,3.8
Kshatrija_UP,3
Meghawal,1.8
Arain_Punjabi,1
Gujarati_A,0.8
Gujarati_D,0.8
Kalash,0.8
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Hakkipikki,0.2
Kurumba,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Velamas,0.2
Yadava,0.2


He gave me an extra one without South Brahmin (Tamil i think) because it was dominating my nmonte so much lol. Higher distance

[1] "distance%=3.5606"
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,43
Kshatrija_UP,21.4
Gujarat_B,11.8
Meghawal,5.2
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Kalash,0.4
Scheduled_Caste_Tamil_Nadu,0.4
Tamil_Ceylon,0.4
Gujarati_C,0.2
Kannadi,0.2
Meena,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Thakur ,4.8
Gujarati_D,3.8
Velamas,2
Gujarati_A,1.6
Tharus,1.4
Arain_Punjabi,1.2
Kurumba,1.2

In mine again you see that Shudra Gangetic Kurmi/Meghwal/Meena signal along with UP Kshatriya/Thakur who might have origins in the former communities.

Tamil Brahmin samples obscures my origins due to the Indo-Aryan + Dravidian-elite fusion combo that produced them which finds similarity in my genome. I might ask him to run it again without Tamil Brahmin samples.

I don't know what Cochin/Travancore is like, but Malabar has almost 0 Tamil influence historically whereas we do have Kannadiga and Tulu influence (my grandfather was fluent in both)

I also have some tribal South Indian admix around 2%. I think vishankar will score higher based on his nmonte

Vishankar could you do your G25 analysis? Just PM LukaszM your scores for the Eurogenes K36 gedmatch calc and pay a small fee and he does a huge report for you which is quite informative
Can you speak Kannada or Tulu . I can both speak and understand Kannada and Tulu and to a lesser extent Kodava. I understand badaga too .

Rustyshakelford
11-18-2018, 06:06 AM
Yep, as i expected you get exotic components like Lebanon_Christian and Makrani. Makrani/Baloch/Brahui here is unrealistic, its only mathematical as the calculator can find no population with the low steppe, high Iran N high Levant combo that the Knanaya score other than the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani. Its a unique trait shared by both that the Knanaya score via ME ancestry and the Gedrosians score due to NW Iranian founders who brought the language (Balochi) who superimposed ME ancestry on the native geographical base. In South Asia the ME/Levant ancestry usually only came via Indo-Aryan steppe (Sintashta) so all Indo-Aryan South Asians will have higher EHG than Levant_N due to proportions that came with Sintashta (much higher EHG). In certain pops like Shi'a and Pashtuns and Misanthrophys Chaush community, they might have non-Sintashta/Indo-Aryan related excess Levant from actual ME sources as well

this was what he did for me way back. Did he use G25 for your analysis?

[1] "distance%=3.2935"
South_Brahmin,75.4
Gujarat_B,6.6
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,4.4
Thakur ,3.8
Kshatrija_UP,3
Meghawal,1.8
Arain_Punjabi,1
Gujarati_A,0.8
Gujarati_D,0.8
Kalash,0.8
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Hakkipikki,0.2
Kurumba,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Velamas,0.2
Yadava,0.2


He gave me an extra one without South Brahmin (Tamil i think) because it was dominating my nmonte so much lol. Higher distance

[1] "distance%=3.5606"
Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,43
Kshatrija_UP,21.4
Gujarat_B,11.8
Meghawal,5.2
Jatt_Sikh,0.6
Kalash,0.4
Scheduled_Caste_Tamil_Nadu,0.4
Tamil_Ceylon,0.4
Gujarati_C,0.2
Kannadi,0.2
Meena,0.2
Telugu,0.2
Thakur ,4.8
Gujarati_D,3.8
Velamas,2
Gujarati_A,1.6
Tharus,1.4
Arain_Punjabi,1.2
Kurumba,1.2

In mine again you see that Shudra Gangetic Kurmi/Meghwal/Meena signal along with UP Kshatriya/Thakur who might have origins in the former communities.

Tamil Brahmin samples obscures my origins due to the Indo-Aryan + Dravidian-elite fusion combo that produced them which finds similarity in my genome. I might ask him to run it again without Tamil Brahmin samples.

I don't know what Cochin/Travancore is like, but Malabar has almost 0 Tamil influence historically whereas we do have Kannadiga and Tulu influence (my grandfather was fluent in both)

I also have some tribal South Indian admix around 2%. I think vishankar will score higher based on his nmonte

Vishankar could you do your G25 analysis? Just PM LukaszM your scores for the Eurogenes K36 gedmatch calc and pay a small fee and he does a huge report for you which is quite informative

There is a IND_kannadi reference pop on the online K36 runner by poi but Iím not sure if itís accurate. The IND_malayali group is entirely tribal so I get poor fits when I use it. I think I remember seeing on a different thread how you and a Karnataka Brahmin had similar Harappa scores Which makes sense given the geographic proximity. Iíve heard that the kasargod dialect is really distinct and hard to understand for people from the south.

In terms of Tamil influence in malabar I once read on a Syrian christian forum that the title Ďnayanarí is an honorific title used by the vellalar caste of Tamil Nadu. Apparently some old Christian families in south Kerala used to use it also. Prior to this I always thought it was a North Kerala thing (Ex: EK nayanar)

Also any idea why I get much better fits than you in the K36 nmonte? Iíve noticed this with G25 as well where I usually get great fits almost always around 1.5. Does this suggest a lack of diversity in ancestral components? Pegasus mentioned in another thread how knanaya G25s can modeled without any steppe which seems correct since all I need is velama plus a ME population and I get excellent fits.

BMG
11-18-2018, 08:40 AM
There is a IND_kannadi reference pop on the online K36 runner by poi but I’m not sure if it’s accurate. The IND_malayali group is entirely tribal so I get poor fits when I use it. I think I remember seeing on a different thread how you and a Karnataka Brahmin had similar Harappa scores Which makes sense given the geographic proximity. I’ve heard that the kasargod dialect is really distinct and hard to understand for people from the south.

In terms of Tamil influence in malabar I once read on a Syrian christian forum that the title ‘nayanar’ is an honorific title used by the vellalar caste of Tamil Nadu. Apparently some old Christian families in south Kerala used to use it also. Prior to this I always thought it was a North Kerala thing (Ex: EK nayanar)

Also any idea why I get much better fits than you in the K36 nmonte? I’ve noticed this with G25 as well where I usually get great fits almost always around 1.5. Does this suggest a lack of diversity in ancestral components? Pegasus mentioned in another thread how knanaya G25s can modeled without any steppe which seems correct since all I need is velama plus a ME population and I get excellent fits.

That kannadi reference is some obscure samples from north karnataka which doesn't represent general karnataka populace . Just like kerala tribal doesn't represent an average malayali . So i don't think it will get better fits for you .

bmoney
11-18-2018, 11:58 PM
Can you speak Kannada or Tulu . I can both speak and understand Kannada and Tulu and to a lesser extent Kodava. I understand badaga too .

Nope. Kannada sounds foreign to me, ie very dissimilar to Malayalam. And I don't think I've ever heard spoken Tulu in real life

I'm not fluent enough to speak Malayalam and can only somewhat understand spoken rural Kannur/Kasargod Malayalam. I cannot understand 80-90% of Malayalam on TV.

So I am by no means an expert. How did you come to learn these languages?

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:04 AM
I had posted something here, but it disappeared!

bmoney
11-19-2018, 12:08 AM
There is a IND_kannadi reference pop on the online K36 runner by poi but I’m not sure if it’s accurate. The IND_malayali group is entirely tribal so I get poor fits when I use it. I think I remember seeing on a different thread how you and a Karnataka Brahmin had similar Harappa scores Which makes sense given the geographic proximity. I’ve heard that the kasargod dialect is really distinct and hard to understand for people from the south.

In terms of Tamil influence in malabar I once read on a Syrian christian forum that the title ‘nayanar’ is an honorific title used by the vellalar caste of Tamil Nadu. Apparently some old Christian families in south Kerala used to use it also. Prior to this I always thought it was a North Kerala thing (Ex: EK nayanar)

Also any idea why I get much better fits than you in the K36 nmonte? I’ve noticed this with G25 as well where I usually get great fits almost always around 1.5. Does this suggest a lack of diversity in ancestral components? Pegasus mentioned in another thread how knanaya G25s can modeled without any steppe which seems correct since all I need is velama plus a ME population and I get excellent fits.

Yes Nayanar is a surname among higher elite Jenmi Nairs in North Malabar. Not sure if its Tamil in origin but its certainly Dravidian

The Kolathiris were the native Dravidian rulers of the region IIRC, it seems probable that Nairs adopted these titles to try and elevate themselves as they did with Ezhava titles like Panicker/Pillai

The fit thing i'm not sure, but Midi Patel also has terrible fits despite being almost 100% steppe-less IVC.

My fits aren't great but not terrible enough to suggest something weird going on admix wise. Also I used my v5 kit which has less overlap so that might contribute to it

I'm not sure if Knanaya are purely steppeless, the NE Euro % is a reliable indicator and Syrian Christians and Knanaya samples definitely have noticable steppe probably originating from the native high/middle castes they mixed with from what I've seen here

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:10 AM
Anyway I'll respost it

I'm a Malayali Pillai. I'll post my results

Harappaworld:
S-Indian 47.53
Baloch 36.94
Caucasian 6.33
NE-Euro 1.56
Siberian 0.56
NE-Asian 2.17
Papuan 0.66
American 0.97
Beringian 0.39
Mediterranean 0.71
SW-Asian 2.19

Jtest:

EAST_EURO 4.42
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 1.66
ASHKENAZI 0.41
EAST_MED 4.03
WEST_ASIAN 17.19
MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.47
SOUTH_ASIAN 68.24
EAST_ASIAN 1.03
SIBERIAN 1.57



I think majority of the Nair samples are from Pillais. I wish other subcastes took it.

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:11 AM
My DNA.LAND results

27159

bmoney
11-19-2018, 12:17 AM
Anyway I'll respost it

I'm a Malayali Pillai. I'll post my results

Harappaworld:
S-Indian 47.53
Baloch 36.94
Caucasian 6.33
NE-Euro 1.56
Siberian 0.56
NE-Asian 2.17
Papuan 0.66
American 0.97
Beringian 0.39
Mediterranean 0.71
SW-Asian 2.19

Jtest:

EAST_EURO 4.42
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 1.66
ASHKENAZI 0.41
EAST_MED 4.03
WEST_ASIAN 17.19
MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.47
SOUTH_ASIAN 68.24
EAST_ASIAN 1.03
SIBERIAN 1.57



I think majority of the Nair samples are from Pillais. I wish other subcastes took it.

Welcome to the forum! Which district is your family from?

You score like a stereotypical Syrian Christian like the Menon result posted earlier in the thread

You even have elevated SW Asian

I bet your top match is Kerala Christian.

Could you post your Harappa single and mixed oracle please

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:19 AM
Welcome to the forum! Which district is your family from?

You score like a stereotypical Syrian Christian like the Menon result posted earlier in the thread

I bet your top match is Kerala Christian.

Could you post your Harappa single and mixed oracle please

I'm from Pathanamthitta District.

Yep my top match is Kerala Christian lol

27160

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:36 AM
Welcome to the forum! Which district is your family from?

You score like a stereotypical Syrian Christian like the Menon result posted earlier in the thread

You even have elevated SW Asian

I bet your top match is Kerala Christian.

Could you post your Harappa single and mixed oracle please

Does the elevated SW Asian mean anything?

bmoney
11-19-2018, 12:41 AM
Does the elevated SW Asian mean anything?

Yes possibly ancient Middle-Eastern ancestry via St Thomas Christian settlers. I have 0.13%; noise level and I'm from North Kerala which did not historically have a Syrian Christian presence

I'm not sure if Syrian Christian to Nair conversions were a thing, I thought it was the other way usually. BMG (our resident Kerala expert and himself a Syrian Christian) care to comment?

Kart
11-19-2018, 12:46 AM
Yes possibly ancient Middle-Eastern ancestry via St Thomas Christian settlers. I have 0.13%; noise level and I'm from North Kerala which did not historically have a Syrian Christian presence

I'm not sure if Syrian Christian to Nair conversions were a thing, I thought it was the other way usually. BMG (our resident Kerala expert and himself a Syrian Christian) care to comment?

Syrian Christians originated from Central/South Kerala, same place I'm from, so we probably share some genes. I don't think it's from Christians converting back to "Nair", which is impossible.

My paternal grandparents are from Thrissur district and my maternal grandparents are from Pathanamthitta.

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 01:09 AM
I'm from Pathanamthitta District.

Yep my top match is Kerala Christian lol

27160

Are you on the r/Kerala subreddit by any chance? I once posted a link to a DNA thread there that had a Nair result like yours and she was also from pathanamthitta lol.

Kart
11-19-2018, 01:11 AM
Are you on the r/Kerala subreddit by any chance? I once posted a link to a DNA thread there that had a Nair result like yours and she was also from pathanamthitta lol.

that's me.. lol don't reveal anything about me here please ... lmao

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 01:15 AM
that's me.. lol don't reveal anything about me here please ... lmao

Lolll I gotchu

vishankar
11-19-2018, 02:44 AM
Not entirely impossible...the manigrammakar guild story is probably about some christians reconverting to hinduism...

bmoney
11-19-2018, 02:58 AM
that's me.. lol don't reveal anything about me here please ... lmao

Sounds like you have at least some knowledge of ancestral genetics.

If so, you maybe interested in getting your G25 coordinates from Eurogenes (for a small fee) and I can run some modelling to test out your ancients %ages and see how you compare to other members here, as well as increasing our Kerala dataset.

Email [email protected] with your kit attached asking for your co-ordinates.

Kart
11-19-2018, 03:33 AM
Not entirely impossible...the manigrammakar guild story is probably about some christians reconverting to hinduism...

No such stories from my mom or dad.

Kart
11-19-2018, 03:36 AM
Sounds like you have at least some knowledge of ancestral genetics.

If so, you maybe interested in getting your G25 coordinates from Eurogenes (for a small fee) and I can run some modelling to test out your ancients %ages and see how you compare to other members here, as well as increasing our Kerala dataset.



I actually have very little knowledge about genetics. I started reading up about admixtures a few months ago. What do G25 coordinates tell you?

bmoney
11-19-2018, 03:47 AM
I actually have very little knowledge about genetics. I started reading up about admixtures a few months ago. What do G25 coordinates tell you?

It is your genome mapped to 25 co-ordinates.

Think of it as a higher 'resolution' genetic mapping which I can run against ancients and other moderns to see how you model as them in terms of %ages and how you compare to other members results

Go back a few pages to see examples of nmonte runs based on G25

Kart
11-19-2018, 03:58 AM
It is your genome mapped to 25 co-ordinates.

Think of it as a higher 'resolution' genetic mapping which I can run against ancients and other moderns to see how you model as them in terms of %ages and how you compare to other members results

Go back a few pages to see examples of nmonte runs based on G25

sorry if it's a dumb question, but what do I email? and who do I pay?

bmoney
11-19-2018, 04:40 AM
sorry if it's a dumb question, but what do I email? and who do I pay?

[email protected] David whos behind the eurogenes blog will run you through the process

Basically it allows you to compare your ancestry to a whole lot of modern and ancient samples or populations and model yourself as x % and y % with the fit indicating how to close to the mark/realistic the model is

BMG
11-19-2018, 03:59 PM
Nope. Kannada sounds foreign to me, ie very dissimilar to Malayalam. And I don't think I've ever heard spoken Tulu in real life

I'm not fluent enough to speak Malayalam and can only somewhat understand spoken rural Kannur/Kasargod Malayalam. I cannot understand 80-90% of Malayalam on TV.

So I am by no means an expert. How did you come to learn these languages?
I have worked in those places . So it was necessary to learn the language to speak to the local workers .

I found kannada easy to learn and literary kannada has many Sanskrit originated words which is shared by literary Malayalam . Tulu has good similarity with northern dialect of Malayalam but has very little Sanskrit influence unlike kannada . Kodava was difficult to understand due to the accent but it seemed to me like Malayalam spoken in a weird accent when I heard it first .
Badaga is basically old kannada with Tamil/Malayalam influence .So if you know kannada you will understand badugu .
So I would say Tulu and Kodava are closer to chaste Malayalam of northern Kerala while Kannada more similar to literary Malayalam .

BMG
11-19-2018, 05:09 PM
Anyway I'll respost it

I'm a Malayali Pillai. I'll post my results

Harappaworld:
S-Indian 47.53
Baloch 36.94
Caucasian 6.33
NE-Euro 1.56
Siberian 0.56
NE-Asian 2.17
Papuan 0.66
American 0.97
Beringian 0.39
Mediterranean 0.71
SW-Asian 2.19

Jtest:

EAST_EURO 4.42
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 1.66
ASHKENAZI 0.41
EAST_MED 4.03
WEST_ASIAN 17.19
MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.47
SOUTH_ASIAN 68.24
EAST_ASIAN 1.03
SIBERIAN 1.57



I think majority of the Nair samples are from Pillais. I wish other subcastes took it.
Welcome to the forum . You are the most Syrian Christian shifted Nair I have seen and my family is the most Nair shifted among Syrian christians . Your West Asian components in harappa and Jtest is more than all my 4 grandparents .Lol you even get Ashkenazi in Jtest .

Kart
11-19-2018, 06:01 PM
Welcome to the forum . You are the most Syrian Christian shifted Nair I have seen and my family is the most Nair shifted among Syrian christians . Your West Asian components in harappa and Jtest is more than all my 4 grandparents .Lol you even get Ashkenazi in Jtest .

That could just mean Syrian Christians and Central-Travancore Nairs possibly have the same origin right? I don't have any middle eastern ancestry trust me lol

Kart
11-19-2018, 06:03 PM
[email protected] David whos behind the eurogenes blog will run you through the process

Basically it allows you to compare your ancestry to a whole lot of modern and ancient samples or populations and model yourself as x % and y % with the fit indicating how to close to the mark/realistic the model is

Will do. Thanks :)

Kart
11-19-2018, 06:05 PM
Duplicate post- deleted

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 06:21 PM
Scoring 2+ SW asian seems pretty common in malayalees. Heres a Thiyya and an Iyer that both score in that range:

Iyer:

S-Indian 45.50
Baloch 37.36
Caucasian 7.33
NE-Euro 2.90
SE-Asian 0.44
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.50
American 1.70
Beringian 0.69
Mediterranean 0.78
SW-Asian 2.79
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Thiyya:

S-Indian 52.04
Baloch 33.26
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 1.08
SE-Asian 1.18
Siberian 1.51
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 0.48
American 0.07
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.39
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.27
E-African -
Pygmy 0.35
W-African 0.07


Kart is more Syrian christian shifted due to the low NE euro. Kart do you get any middle eastern pops in your oracles?

Kart
11-19-2018, 06:28 PM
Scoring 2+ SW asian seems pretty common in malayalees. Heres a Thiyya and an Iyer that both score in that range:

Iyer:

S-Indian 45.50
Baloch 37.36
Caucasian 7.33
NE-Euro 2.90
SE-Asian 0.44
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.50
American 1.70
Beringian 0.69
Mediterranean 0.78
SW-Asian 2.79
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Thiyya:

S-Indian 52.04
Baloch 33.26
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 1.08
SE-Asian 1.18
Siberian 1.51
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 0.48
American 0.07
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.39
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.27
E-African -
Pygmy 0.35
W-African 0.07


Kart is more Syrian christian shifted due to the low NE euro. Kart do you get any middle eastern pops in your oracles?

This is going to sound a little controversial but I think if we test the "right kind" of Malayalees, we could get similar results to knanayas. I mean the light skinned, more caucasoid looking Hindu and Syrian Christian Malayalees (light skinned actresses and actors for example). The sample size is too small for Hindu Malayalees.

Again, I don't have any background in genetics, this is just my thought lol

Kart
11-19-2018, 06:49 PM
Scoring 2+ SW asian seems pretty common in malayalees. Heres a Thiyya and an Iyer that both score in that range:

Iyer:

S-Indian 45.50
Baloch 37.36
Caucasian 7.33
NE-Euro 2.90
SE-Asian 0.44
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.50
American 1.70
Beringian 0.69
Mediterranean 0.78
SW-Asian 2.79
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Thiyya:

S-Indian 52.04
Baloch 33.26
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 1.08
SE-Asian 1.18
Siberian 1.51
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 0.48
American 0.07
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.39
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.27
E-African -
Pygmy 0.35
W-African 0.07


Kart is more Syrian christian shifted due to the low NE euro. Kart do you get any middle eastern pops in your oracles?

Nothing in Harappa but when I did Dodecad, I got these:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu_Metspalu @ 4.492309
2 Indian_Dodecad @ 4.941919
3 Iyer_Dodecad @ 6.809614
4 Iyengar_Dodecad @ 7.617129
5 Cochin_Jews_Behar @ 7.874391
6 GIH30_Dodecad @ 8.054081
7 Kshatriya_Metspalu @ 8.663624
8 Meghawal_Metspalu @ 8.700494
9 INS30_SGVP @ 8.704695
10 Kurmi_Metspalu @ 9.008130
11 Lambadi_Metspalu @ 9.210796
12 Tharus_Metspalu @ 10.187504
13 Dharkars_Metspalu @ 10.658443
14 Bengali_Metspalu @ 10.729601
15 Muslim_Metspalu @ 10.893827
16 Meena_Metspalu @ 11.200552
17 Velamas_Metspalu @ 11.439912
18 Kanjars_Metspalu @ 11.621492
19 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh_Metspalu @ 12.651129
20 Tamil_Nadu_Scheduled_Caste_Metspalu @ 14.475562

Can you explain to me what oracles mean?

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 06:51 PM
This is going to sound a little controversial but I think if we test the "right kind" of Malayalees, we could get similar results to knanayas. I mean the light skinned, more caucasoid looking Hindu and Syrian Christian Malayalees (light skinned actresses and actors for example). The sample size is too small for Hindu Malayalees.

Again, I don't have any background in genetics, this is just my thought lol

Sure but we cant test based on looks, the assumptions aer based on group averages. BMG has posted the stats on the average differences between knanaya and syrian christians several pages back. but you are right that there are individuals who vary from their group average.

Heres a Syrian Christian thats not far off from the kna average:

S-Indian 46.93
Baloch 34.17
Caucasian 9.56
NE-Euro 1.25
SE-Asian 1.78
Siberian 0.13
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 1.39
American 0.70
Beringian 1.11
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.22
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

But your also going to get ones like this (also syrian christian):

S-Indian 50.86
Baloch 34.78
Caucasian 3.73
NE-Euro 0.67
SE-Asian 1.25
Siberian 0.40
NE-Asian -
Papuan 1.36
American 0.90
Beringian 1.25
Mediterranean 0.99
SW-Asian 3.83
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

I agree that the Hindus are under tested so it would be nice if you can post you gedmatch relatives that are confirmed malayalee hindu.

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 06:51 PM
This is going to sound a little controversial but I think if we test the "right kind" of Malayalees, we could get similar results to knanayas. I mean the light skinned, more caucasoid looking Hindu and Syrian Christian Malayalees (light skinned actresses and actors for example). The sample size is too small for Hindu Malayalees.

Again, I don't have any background in genetics, this is just my thought lol

Sure but we cant test based on looks, the assumptions aer based on group averages. BMG has posted the stats on the average differences between knanaya and syrian christians several pages back. but you are right that there are individuals who vary from their group average.

Heres a Syrian Christian thats not far off from the kna average:

S-Indian 46.93
Baloch 34.17
Caucasian 9.56
NE-Euro 1.25
SE-Asian 1.78
Siberian 0.13
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 1.39
American 0.70
Beringian 1.11
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.22
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

But your also going to get ones like this (also syrian christian):

S-Indian 50.86
Baloch 34.78
Caucasian 3.73
NE-Euro 0.67
SE-Asian 1.25
Siberian 0.40
NE-Asian -
Papuan 1.36
American 0.90
Beringian 1.25
Mediterranean 0.99
SW-Asian 3.83
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

I agree that the Hindus are under tested so it would be nice if you can post you gedmatch relatives that are confirmed malayalee hindu.

Kart
11-19-2018, 07:46 PM
Yep thatís what I was saying. The first Syrian Christian result looks awfully similar to a Knanaya one. Also the Menon one that someone posted here was similar too.

How do I find gedmatch relatives?

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 07:50 PM
Nothing in Harappa but when I did Dodecad, I got these:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu_Metspalu @ 4.492309
2 Indian_Dodecad @ 4.941919
3 Iyer_Dodecad @ 6.809614
4 Iyengar_Dodecad @ 7.617129
5 Cochin_Jews_Behar @ 7.874391
6 GIH30_Dodecad @ 8.054081
7 Kshatriya_Metspalu @ 8.663624
8 Meghawal_Metspalu @ 8.700494
9 INS30_SGVP @ 8.704695
10 Kurmi_Metspalu @ 9.008130
11 Lambadi_Metspalu @ 9.210796
12 Tharus_Metspalu @ 10.187504
13 Dharkars_Metspalu @ 10.658443
14 Bengali_Metspalu @ 10.729601
15 Muslim_Metspalu @ 10.893827
16 Meena_Metspalu @ 11.200552
17 Velamas_Metspalu @ 11.439912
18 Kanjars_Metspalu @ 11.621492
19 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh_Metspalu @ 12.651129
20 Tamil_Nadu_Scheduled_Caste_Metspalu @ 14.475562

Can you explain to me what oracles mean?

Sorry I meant the 2 population approximations. Basically Oracle is taking you calculator scores and predicting what group(s) you resemble, it shouldn’t be taken literally as meaning you are Tamil Brahmin just that you score somewhat similar enough that the algorithm predicts it.

Kart
11-19-2018, 07:57 PM
Sorry I meant the 2 population approximations. Basically Oracle is taking you calculator scores and predicting what group(s) you resemble, it shouldn’t be taken literally as meaning you are Tamil Brahmin just that you score somewhat similar enough that the algorithm predicts it.

Gotcha. Which calculator should I use? They have too many there lol

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2018, 08:17 PM
Yep that’s what I was saying. The first Syrian Christian result looks awfully similar to a Knanaya one. Also the Menon one that someone posted here was similar too.

How do I find gedmatch relatives?

Use the ‘one to many’ matching features you can find it above the admixture calcs.

parasar
11-19-2018, 08:26 PM
In terms of Tamil influence in malabar I once read on a Syrian christian forum that the title Ďnayanarí is an honorific title used by the vellalar caste of Tamil Nadu. Apparently some old Christian families in south Kerala used to use it also. Prior to this I always thought it was a North Kerala thing (Ex: EK nayanar)

....

Naik, Nair, Nayyar, Naib, Nai (Siamese), Naidu, Nayen (Malay) all mean the same - chief.

Nayen and Nair are very close in sound as are Malaya (hills (now Malabar)) and Malay(sia).
(This similarity has lead to some DNA sample confusion whereby Malayan is sometimes incorrectly equated to Malay)

Kart
11-19-2018, 10:14 PM
Sorry I meant the 2 population approximations. Basically Oracle is taking you calculator scores and predicting what group(s) you resemble, it shouldn’t be taken literally as meaning you are Tamil Brahmin just that you score somewhat similar enough that the algorithm predicts it.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-christian_harappa +50% kerala-nair_harappa @ 2.125029

bmoney
11-20-2018, 12:24 AM
I have worked in those places . So it was necessary to learn the language to speak to the local workers .

I found kannada easy to learn and literary kannada has many Sanskrit originated words which is shared by literary Malayalam . Tulu has good similarity with northern dialect of Malayalam but has very little Sanskrit influence unlike kannada . Kodava was difficult to understand due to the accent but it seemed to me like Malayalam spoken in a weird accent when I heard it first .
Badaga is basically old kannada with Tamil/Malayalam influence .So if you know kannada you will understand badugu .
So I would say Tulu and Kodava are closer to chaste Malayalam of northern Kerala while Kannada more similar to literary Malayalam .

This is my opinion genetically too

North Kerala has more Tulu Nadu and Coorg influences and less so Karnataka though Southern Kasargod still has Kannada place names like Hosdurg which we Mallus call Kanhangad

bmoney
11-20-2018, 12:32 AM
Scoring 2+ SW asian seems pretty common in malayalees. Heres a Thiyya and an Iyer that both score in that range:

Iyer:

S-Indian 45.50
Baloch 37.36
Caucasian 7.33
NE-Euro 2.90
SE-Asian 0.44
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.50
American 1.70
Beringian 0.69
Mediterranean 0.78
SW-Asian 2.79
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Thiyya:

S-Indian 52.04
Baloch 33.26
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 1.08
SE-Asian 1.18
Siberian 1.51
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 0.48
American 0.07
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.39
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.27
E-African -
Pygmy 0.35
W-African 0.07


Kart is more Syrian christian shifted due to the low NE euro. Kart do you get any middle eastern pops in your oracles?

This is a good point.

Even the Nambudiri reference on HAP scores some SW Asian. It seems to be a Kerala coastal trait like elevated Caucasian compared to NE Euro.

Maybe it was via St Thomas Christians or maybe it was common among Dravidian middle castes in the region due to sea trade with the Gulf

I can guarantee that Kart and that Menon wont score like Bunts or Tulu people though. Either they are assimilated Nairs, or Nairs like vishankar or myself are phonies who adopted a middle/high caste Dravidian title. Although vishankar does have actual Brahmin ancestry.

Judging by the Bunt/Nair similarity, i think the former is more likely. And I think Kart and Menon are probably assimilated or heavily Central Kerala admixed Nairs.

Regardless we need more samples

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 12:59 AM
This is a good point.

Even the Nambudiri reference on HAP scores some SW Asian. It seems to be a Kerala coastal trait like elevated Caucasian compared to NE Euro.

Maybe it was via St Thomas Christians or maybe it was common among Dravidian middle castes in the region due to sea trade with the Gulf

I can guarantee that Kart and that Menon wont score like Bunts or Tulu people though. Either they are assimilated Nairs, or Nairs like vishankar or myself are phonies who adopted a middle/high caste Dravidian title. Although vishankar does have actual Brahmin ancestry.

Judging by the Bunt/Nair similarity, i think the former is more likely. And I think Kart and Menon are probably assimilated or heavily Central Kerala admixed Nairs.

Regardless we need more samples

I saw on another thread a Telugu Brahmin who has pretty significant SW Asian and it was actually affecting his oracles as he was getting a lot of ME pops. Is there any chance it’s misatributed steppe? I’m guessing that’s impossible but it just seems so strange how even Brahmins score some.

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:21 AM
I saw on another thread a Telugu Brahmin who has pretty significant SW Asian and it was actually affecting his oracles as he was getting a lot of ME pops. Is there any chance it’s misatributed steppe? I’m guessing that’s impossible but it just seems so strange how even Brahmins score some.

Sudkol doesnt score anything like the AP Brahmin reference, so I doubt its common.

He always gets Baloch/Brahui or a Caucasian-shifted population in his oracle due to his high Caucasian and SW Asian score

AP Brahmin or TN Brahmin reference don't score any SW Asian IIRC, only the Kerala Brahmin reference does which is like 1 sample I think so not sure if its even common in Kerala Brahmins

Thomas48
11-20-2018, 01:34 AM
Here’s another Knanaya I was able to collect. It’s very interesting to note the strict correlations seen in the samples run through Harappa World. I think this uniformity in Knanaya autosomal samples is because the Knanaya were centralized to distinct areas, that being their township in Southern Cranganore. They also had an early outpost in Kaduthurthy, the exact date of settlement is unknown, some say 500 while others say 1000. The church there is known as Kaduthuruthy Valiyapally and it it one of the oldest in India. So from anywhere between 800-1200 years (depending on what date of arrival you use) the Knanaya were only found in these two spots, a clear allusion to their uniformity in autosomal dna and high centimorgan count. Of course after the destruction of Cranganore in 1524, the community migrated to other areas towards the interior of Kerala.

Knanaya 33:

Population
S-Indian 45.05
Baloch 35.83
Caucasian 10.21
NE-Euro 1.05
SE-Asian 1.90
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.18
Papuan 1.12
American 1.87
Beringian 0.21
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 1.53
San 0.80
E-African 0.25
Pygmy -
W-African -

Thomas48
11-20-2018, 01:59 AM
This is going to sound a little controversial but I think if we test the "right kind" of Malayalees, we could get similar results to knanayas. I mean the light skinned, more caucasoid looking Hindu and Syrian Christian Malayalees (light skinned actresses and actors for example). The sample size is too small for Hindu Malayalees.

Again, I don't have any background in genetics, this is just my thought lol

I donít think itís particularly about light skin. Tho Iíve heard third parties say Knanaya are generally light skinned, we do have a range of colors within our community. I think the high Caucuses seen repteadly is simply due to strict endogamy amongst the Knanaya. The Syrian Christian community in general, I beleive is considered fairer in skin, most likely due to a lot of us being the descendants of Syrian Christian merchants that either assimilated into the Kerala population or in the case of the Knanaya who came as a group, decided to maintain a level of endogamy. Fair skin in Kerala in general was historically an attribute given to all higher caste communities to my knowledge. Kerala state being on the Western Coast, being visited by Romans, Greeks, Arabs, and a multitude of other merchants would allude to why even as South Indians, Keralites often stick out.

BMG
11-20-2018, 02:54 AM
That could just mean Syrian Christians and Central-Travancore Nairs possibly have the same origin right? I don't have any middle eastern ancestry trust me lol
You don't actually have high middle eastern . Your Caucasian and SW Asian is quite normal for south indian. Knanayas who actually have middle eastern ancestry have around 13-15% of Caucasus + SW Asian . It is just that I have very low levels for despite being Syrian Christian . On the other hand my family have higher levels of ne-euro in harappa compared to other Syrian Christians.

BMG
11-20-2018, 02:57 AM
This is going to sound a little controversial but I think if we test the "right kind" of Malayalees, we could get similar results to knanayas. I mean the light skinned, more caucasoid looking Hindu and Syrian Christian Malayalees (light skinned actresses and actors for example). The sample size is too small for Hindu Malayalees.

Again, I don't have any background in genetics, this is just my thought lol
No that would be a very wrong assumption

bmoney
11-20-2018, 04:04 AM
You don't actually have high middle eastern . Your Caucasian and SW Asian is quite normal for south indian. Knanayas who actually have middle eastern ancestry have around 13-15% of Caucasus + SW Asian . It is just that I have very low levels for despite being Syrian Christian . On the other hand my family have higher levels of ne-euro in harappa compared to other Syrian Christians.

I don't think SW Asian is common in South Indians at all

I'll perform some analysis based on HAP references tonight

If we had her G25, I bet she would score non-noise Yemen Jew like Trajects family and the Knanaya did

BMG
11-20-2018, 04:38 AM
I don't think SW Asian is common in South Indians at all

I'll perform some analysis based on HAP references tonight

If we had her G25, I bet she would score non-noise Yemen Jew like Trajects family and the Knanaya did

I think ~2% is normal from what I have seen .

Kart
11-20-2018, 04:46 AM
2-3% is normal for Malayalees

Thomas48
11-20-2018, 08:22 AM
I don't think SW Asian is common in South Indians at all

I'll perform some analysis based on HAP references tonight

If we had her G25, I bet she would score non-noise Yemen Jew like Trajects family and the Knanaya did

Is it possible that we could compare not Yemeni Jews but instead an Iraqi/Armenian/Syrian Christian from the Middle East. What’s very interesting is that all Middle Eastern ancestry that both the Knanaya and Syrian Christians exhibit on platforms such as Family Tree DNA comes directly from the Southern Caucuses region, that would be modern day Armenia, Azerbaijan, Eastern Turkey, Northern Syria, and Northern Iraq. About 90% of all the 60ish autosomal samples I have at the Syrian Christians Project show their Middle Eastern ancestry from this region. A minority among them about 10% show their ancestry from instead the Western Middle East (Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Western Syria). Comparing a sample from this Western Middle East and Southern Caucuses region to our Keralite samples may help us to find better correlations.

Censored
11-20-2018, 08:48 AM
Scoring 2+ SW asian seems pretty common in malayalees. Heres a Thiyya and an Iyer that both score in that range:

Iyer:

S-Indian 45.50
Baloch 37.36
Caucasian 7.33
NE-Euro 2.90
SE-Asian 0.44
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.50
American 1.70
Beringian 0.69
Mediterranean 0.78
SW-Asian 2.79
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Thiyya:

S-Indian 52.04
Baloch 33.26
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 1.08
SE-Asian 1.18
Siberian 1.51
NE-Asian 0.76
Papuan 0.48
American 0.07
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.39
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.27
E-African -
Pygmy 0.35
W-African 0.07


Kart is more Syrian christian shifted due to the low NE euro. Kart do you get any middle eastern pops in your oracles?

Damn, that Iyer's Caucasian and NE-Euro scores are really close to mine.

bmoney
11-20-2018, 08:49 AM
Is it possible that we could compare not Yemeni Jews but instead an Iraqi/Armenian/Syrian Christian from the Middle East. What’s very interesting is that all Middle Eastern ancestry that both the Knanaya and Syrian Christians exhibit on platforms such as Family Tree DNA comes directly from the Southern Caucuses region, that would be modern day Armenia, Azerbaijan, Eastern Turkey, Northern Syria, and Northern Iraq. About 90% of all the 60ish autosomal samples I have at the Syrian Christians Project show their Middle Eastern ancestry from this region. A minority among them about 10% show their ancestry from instead the Western Middle East (Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Western Syria). Comparing a sample from this Western Middle East and Southern Caucuses region to our Keralite samples may help us to find better correlations.

Good suggestion. I'm not well informed about that part of the world

Is Assyrian a population that resembles this population x? Or is there a more relevant population to use?

We have to try and emulate 1st millennium Syrian settler genetics, and match the modern pop with the best fit to this hypothetical

bmoney
11-20-2018, 09:03 AM
2-3% is normal for Malayalees

You guys are right, its common in South India as well, though not as common in Gangetic, Gujaratis (except Muslims) and Bengal

I've taken out all the South Indian pops between 2 and 4% SW Asian

kerala-brahmin 4%
kerala 3%
kerala-christian 3%
kerala-muslim 3%
naidu 3%
tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste 2%
tamil-nadar 2%
tamil 2%
sri-lankan 2%
kerala-nair 2%
andhra-pradesh 2%
ap-reddy 2%
singapore-tamil 2%

South Indian pops with 0-2% SW Asian:

hakkipikki 1%
iyengar-brahmin 1%
karnataka 1%
sinhalese 1%
ap-hyderabad 1%
ap-madiga 1%
karnataka-brahmin 1%
ap-brahmin 1%
piramalai-kallar 1%
velama 1%
iyer-brahmin 1%
tn-brahmin 1%
malayan 1%
kurumba 1%
tamil-vishwakarma 1%
sakilli 1%
kurumba 1%
brahmin-tamil-nadu 1%
tamil-srilankan 1%
velama 1%
mala 0%
tn-dalit 0%
dusadh 0%
north-kannadi 0%
gond 0%
sourastrian 0%
vysya 0%
ap-mala 0%
chenchu 0%
irula 0%
malayan 0%
chenchu 0%
lambadi 0%
mada 0%
madiga 0%
paniya 0%
pulliyar 0%

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:02 PM
Top 10 matches based on Lukasz K36 checkfit - need more South Indian reference populations.

I'm getting Hyderabadi Muslim user Censored before fellow Mallu Rusty (not in my top 10)

1 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_South_Brahmin Average 1.01576
2 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Gujarat Average 1.17331
3 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Kshatrija_UP Average 1.1782899999999998
4 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 1.23705
5 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Brahmin_UP Average 1.62875
6 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Gujarati_C Average 1.63792
7 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Gujarati_B Average 1.68249
8 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Meghawal Average 1.8738
9 Custom:AGUser_bmoney Custom AGUser_censored 2.0183400000000002
10 Custom:AGUser_bmoney IND_Meena Average 2.22115

For Rustyshakleford - further distances to everyone compared to me (8/10 of my top 10 is closer than Rustys 1st match) but Cochin Jew is much closer for him than for me (not in my top 10)

1 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 1.90153
2 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford Gujarat Average 1.94566
3 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Kshatrija_UP Average 2.04512
4 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_South_Brahmin Average 2.1407599999999998
5 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Gujarati_B Average 2.1516800000000003
6 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Meena Average 2.18746
7 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford Cochin_Jew Average 2.20119
8 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford Custom AGUser_bmoney 2.29243
9 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Brahmin_UP Average 2.46443
10 Custom:AGUser_Rustyshakelford IND_Gujarati_C Average 2.47815

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:15 PM
Real quick nmonte

https://i.imgur.com/JLbiECy.png

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 01:25 PM
Is it possible that we could compare not Yemeni Jews but instead an Iraqi/Armenian/Syrian Christian from the Middle East. What’s very interesting is that all Middle Eastern ancestry that both the Knanaya and Syrian Christians exhibit on platforms such as Family Tree DNA comes directly from the Southern Caucuses region, that would be modern day Armenia, Azerbaijan, Eastern Turkey, Northern Syria, and Northern Iraq. About 90% of all the 60ish autosomal samples I have at the Syrian Christians Project show their Middle Eastern ancestry from this region. A minority among them about 10% show their ancestry from instead the Western Middle East (Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Western Syria). Comparing a sample from this Western Middle East and Southern Caucuses region to our Keralite samples may help us to find better correlations.


It doesn’t make a difference in the nmonte. Using any of the ME pops produce about the same pull and very little difference in fits.

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:26 PM
Lmao Thomas48 was right all along, also a better fit for Rusty in this model and a slightly better one for me:

https://i.imgur.com/xzHo2yz.png

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:40 PM
Huge fit improvement for me below, and a slightly even better one for Rusty

@parasar, is there a chance that UP Kshatriyas have humble Kurmi/Ahir/Yadav origins?

https://i.imgur.com/MdpStPT.png

Kart
11-20-2018, 01:44 PM
I sent my info to David. So excited lol

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:48 PM
I sent my info to David. So excited lol

Woo!

What still sucks is that we don't have a single Ezhava/Thiyya G25 sample.. da real OG Mallus

BMG
11-20-2018, 01:52 PM
Lmao Thomas48 was right all along, also a better fit for Rusty in this model and a slightly better one for me:

https://i.imgur.com/xzHo2yz.png
Do it for traject also

Kart
11-20-2018, 01:54 PM
Woo!

What still sucks is that we don't have a single Ezhava/Thiyya G25 sample.. da real OG Mallus

Wouldn't tribals be the original Mallu? I have a kit number that a Pulaya redditor shared with me. He has 70% SI.

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:54 PM
Do it for traject also

He needs to purchase Lukasz K36 report to get the co-ordinates for this tool

bmoney
11-20-2018, 01:56 PM
Wouldn't tribals be the original Mallu? I have a kit number that a Pulaya redditor shared with me. He has 70% SI.

My theory is that tribals weren't originally Dravidian speakers and didn't lay the foundation for Dravidian 1st Chera Kerala.

And I think the Ezhavas/Thiyyas did, and they are probably descendants of the Villavar Ay kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom

Kart
11-20-2018, 01:57 PM
My theory is that tribals weren't originally Dravidian speakers and didn't lay the foundation for Dravidian 1st Chera Kerala.

And I think the Ezhavas/Thiyyas did, and they are probably descendants of the Villavar Ay kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom

what about Pulayar and Parayar..they're not tribals.

I didn't know about the Ay Kindgom. Thanks for sharing!

bmoney
11-20-2018, 02:03 PM
what about Pulayar and Parayar..they're not tribals.

I don't know much about them tbh, yes its possible

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 02:05 PM
Wouldn't tribals be the original Mallu? I have a kit number that a Pulaya redditor shared with me. He has 70% SI.

Maybe try convincing some of your ezhava homies on r/Kerala lol, I know a few of them showed interest last time

Kart
11-20-2018, 02:10 PM
Maybe try convincing some of your ezhava homies on r/Kerala lol, I know a few of them showed interest last time

None of them are in Europe or the US :(

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 04:18 PM
Real quick nmonte

https://i.imgur.com/JLbiECy.png

Following Thomas's suggestion I used IQ_Maysan since the original migration was supposed to be from Maysan/Basra/Khuzestan area. I figure any admix knas and syrian christians have must be from iraq since its the heartland of east syriac christianity, which was the form practiced in kerala as well.

heres the run, @bmoney could you try it at 1000x500, i dont have sponsor privileges:

27193

vishankar
11-20-2018, 04:29 PM
what about Pulayar and Parayar..they're not tribals.

I didn't know about the Ay Kindgom. Thanks for sharing!



I should think that the pulayas and parayar are tribals who joined the mainstream plainspeople and were sadly subjected to slavery and untouchability....

vishankar
11-20-2018, 06:38 PM
here is my lukacs report-
FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)
"distance%=0.2878"
Gujarati_D,38 Tharu,25.2 Meghawal,6.6 South_Brahmin,3.8 Lambadi,2.2 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,2.2 Kurumba,1.8 Yadava,1.4 Kannadi,1.2 Meena,1.2 Scheduled_Caste_UP,1.2 Madiga,1 Mala,1 Sakkili,1 Cochin_Jew,0.8 Gujarat_B,0.8 Hakkipikki,0.8 Irula,0.8
CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE
Tharus 0.4077266
Gujarati_D 0.4273484
Meghaw al 0.4438356
Muslim_UP 0.4471823
Punjabi_1000genomes 0.4540859
Velamas 0.6038766
Lambadi 0.6096819
Gujarati_C 0.7594843
South_Brahmin 0.8992497
Scheduled_Caste_UP 0.9313769

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 09:15 PM
here is my lukacs report-
FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)
"distance%=0.2878"
Gujarati_D,38 Tharu,25.2 Meghawal,6.6 South_Brahmin,3.8 Lambadi,2.2 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin,2.2 Kurumba,1.8 Yadava,1.4 Kannadi,1.2 Meena,1.2 Scheduled_Caste_UP,1.2 Madiga,1 Mala,1 Sakkili,1 Cochin_Jew,0.8 Gujarat_B,0.8 Hakkipikki,0.8 Irula,0.8
CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE
Tharus 0.4077266
Gujarati_D 0.4273484
Meghaw al 0.4438356
Muslim_UP 0.4471823
Punjabi_1000genomes 0.4540859
Velamas 0.6038766
Lambadi 0.6096819
Gujarati_C 0.7594843
South_Brahmin 0.8992497
Scheduled_Caste_UP 0.9313769

Ask him for your coordinates

bmoney
11-20-2018, 11:17 PM
Following Thomas's suggestion I used IQ_Maysan since the original migration was supposed to be from Maysan/Basra/Khuzestan area. I figure any admix knas and syrian christians have must be from iraq since its the heartland of east syriac christianity, which was the form practiced in kerala as well.

heres the run, @bmoney could you try it at 1000x500, i dont have sponsor privileges:

27193

Here you go. Better fits though a reduction in your ME scores although this matches better with regular nmonte where you get 8-10% usually

https://i.imgur.com/WisbQ2D.png

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2018, 11:24 PM
Here you go. Better fits though a reduction in your ME scores although this matches better with regular nmonte where you get 8-10% usually

https://i.imgur.com/WisbQ2D.png

Thanks, Could you also try it with UP Brahmin? I just wanna see how the cycle and batch number would affect the same run

Kart
11-20-2018, 11:38 PM
I should think that the pulayas and parayar are tribals who joined the mainstream plainspeople and were sadly subjected to slavery and untouchability....
Tribals show elevated ďCaucasianĒ on Harappa, why is that? Someone had up to 20%

bmoney
11-20-2018, 11:43 PM
Tribals show elevated “Caucasian” on Harappa, why is that? Someone had up to 20%

Its a mystery. I've noticed the same thing

bmoney
11-20-2018, 11:45 PM
Thanks, Could you also try it with UP Brahmin? I just wanna see how the cycle and batch number would affect the same run

Slight differences but interesting the Kshatriya UP was capturing some of the ME in you

Worse fits in this model though

https://i.imgur.com/2TApL1L.png

bmoney
11-21-2018, 02:32 AM
Ran all the South Asian users on Lukasz tool atm

Interesting, no one likes the UP Brahmin reference, including an actual Brahmin like Poi who's excess steppe is going into Maysan

https://i.imgur.com/Xsk6J8p.png

vishankar
11-21-2018, 03:20 AM
do you have to request lukacs again for coordinates...?

vishankar
11-21-2018, 04:12 AM
My DNA.LAND results

27159

what is this 2.9 % northwest european...?all other calculators have north east european...any inputs?

bmoney
11-21-2018, 05:14 AM
do you have to request lukacs again for coordinates...?

Yes, but since you got the report he'll give it to you for free

bmoney
11-21-2018, 05:20 AM
what is this 2.9 % northwest european...?all other calculators have north east european...any inputs?

These calculators are terrible, not even worth discussing

It would be something ancient Central Asian steppe related in your case

Kart
11-21-2018, 02:33 PM
ok guys, he emailed me back a bunch of files. Which one do you need?

Rustyshakelford
11-21-2018, 03:45 PM
ok guys, he emailed me back a bunch of files. Which one do you need?

Don’t need the files just paste the coordinates he put in the body of the email

vishankar
11-21-2018, 06:08 PM
here are my coordinates- -2.2853,-2.3581,3.171,-4.9026,10.819,-4.7614,-0.052133,0.16046,1.0187,-0.10295,-0.22457,0.10383,1.0141,0.59571,-0.26433,-0.28515,-0.069439,0.16053,0.10372,-0.099158,-0.049401,-0.011974,-0.029666,0.092446,0.11025,0.084273,0.046479,0.1052 5,-0.058388,-0.29794,0.037599,-0.046551,-0.082791,-0.041158,0.13559,0.030712

lukaszM
11-21-2018, 06:20 PM
here are my coordinates- -2.2853,-2.3581,3.171,-4.9026,10.819,-4.7614,-0.052133,0.16046,1.0187,-0.10295,-0.22457,0.10383,1.0141,0.59571,-0.26433,-0.28515,-0.069439,0.16053,0.10372,-0.099158,-0.049401,-0.011974,-0.029666,0.092446,0.11025,0.084273,0.046479,0.1052 5,-0.058388,-0.29794,0.037599,-0.046551,-0.082791,-0.041158,0.13559,0.030712

Ask Poi for adding to K36 Runner.

Kart
11-21-2018, 09:28 PM
Don’t need the files just paste the coordinates he put in the body of the email

My real name is embedded within the coordinates :/ can I substitute that with my username?

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Kart_scaled,0.052359,-0.051792,-0.148208,0.094962,-0.079092,0.05522,-0.001175,0.010153,0.033951,0.020228,-0.009906,0.002847,0.002081,-0.003028,-0.005157,0.004641,0.00339,0,0.001508,-0.004627,0.001123,-0.002968,0.005176,-0.005904,0.002634

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Kart,0.0046,-0.0051,-0.0393,0.0294,-0.0257,0.0198,-0.0005,0.0044,0.0166,0.0111,-0.0061,0.0019,0.0014,-0.0022,-0.0038,0.0035,0.0026,0,0.0012,-0.0037,0.0009,-0.0024,0.0042,-0.0049,0.0022

where it says "kart" was my real name

Rustyshakelford
11-21-2018, 10:40 PM
My real name is embedded within the coordinates :/ can I substitute that with my username?

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Kart_scaled,0.052359,-0.051792,-0.148208,0.094962,-0.079092,0.05522,-0.001175,0.010153,0.033951,0.020228,-0.009906,0.002847,0.002081,-0.003028,-0.005157,0.004641,0.00339,0,0.001508,-0.004627,0.001123,-0.002968,0.005176,-0.005904,0.002634

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Kart,0.0046,-0.0051,-0.0393,0.0294,-0.0257,0.0198,-0.0005,0.0044,0.0166,0.0111,-0.0061,0.0019,0.0014,-0.0022,-0.0038,0.0035,0.0026,0,0.0012,-0.0037,0.0009,-0.0024,0.0042,-0.0049,0.0022

where it says "kart" was my real name

Heres you vs. me. vs. bmoney:

27209

you seem to score more like traject and his fam than bmoney or vishanker which i guess confirms your kerala christian shift.

@bmoney can do a mass run later on

heres the tool if you want to play around wtih it: http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Kart
11-21-2018, 10:44 PM
Heres you vs. me. vs. bmoney:

27209

you seem to score more like traject and his fam than bmoney or vishanker which i guess confirms your kerala christian shift.

@bmoney can do a mass run later on

heres the tool if you want to play around wtih it: http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Thanks :)

I tried using that tool..but I had no idea what I was doing lol

traject
11-21-2018, 11:49 PM
Heres you vs. me. vs. bmoney:

27209

you seem to score more like traject and his fam than bmoney or vishanker which i guess confirms your kerala christian shift.

@bmoney can do a mass run later on

heres the tool if you want to play around wtih it: http://185.144.156.77:3000/

It'd be interesting to see if these results are because Kart has shared ancestry with Kerala Christians or whether this is a broader Central Kerala phenomenon (we would need more samples for sure).

bmoney
11-22-2018, 12:01 AM
It'd be interesting to see if these results are because Kart has shared ancestry with Kerala Christians or whether this is a broader Central Kerala phenomenon (we would need more samples for sure).

Vishankar is from Central+ South Kerala IIRC but has Brahmin admixture

And im sure youll find Syrian Christian type Nairs in Northern Kerala too like one of the gedmatch samples. So its probably shared ancestry unless Kart scores Assyrian or other ME in which case we can definitely say she has some ancestry from proto-Syrian Christians

What we call 'Syrian Christian' is just Kerala middle-caste which has some Indo-Aryan ancestry over a majority Velama Dravidian farmer base with varying minor tribal Paniya admixture

I'm doing a big run right now

bmoney
11-22-2018, 12:18 AM
Kart scores like a Syrian Christian (Trajects fam)

In fact Traject has slightly more 'Indo-Aryan' ancestry than Kart

Yemen Jew seems to be oddly distributed but is clearly higher in Trajects fam and the Knanaya of course.

Its less than 1 in Kush, Irula and me

I've added an OBC Kerala (Pulliyar) community and Telugu Reddy (Kush) for comparison

You can see the Pulliyar and Irulas have 0 Indo-Aryan ancestry and the Indo-Aryan first wave didn't affect all communities. I would suspect that their R1a levels are quite low

https://i.imgur.com/jT506R9.png

bmoney
11-22-2018, 01:05 AM
Pegasus ancients calc

https://i.imgur.com/zRaiOdB.png

Kart
11-22-2018, 01:56 AM
That is so cool. thanks bmoney :)

Kart
11-22-2018, 02:08 AM
It'd be interesting to see if these results are because Kart has shared ancestry with Kerala Christians or whether this is a broader Central Kerala phenomenon (we would need more samples for sure).

That's very interesting. We need more Hindu samples from Central Kerala to figure that out.

bmoney
11-22-2018, 01:38 PM
Got Kart added to the checkfit tool.

Traject is the closest as expected though Vishankar is just 0.06 higher than Traject

Trajects sis seems the most North Indian shifted out of his fam

Rusty (JosephN) is the furthest Knanaya sample from her, the other 2 (Tobin) arent too far from her (under 3 which is close)

She gets a Punjabi Lahore sample before she gets me lol

1 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair Average 1.402
2 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-13 2.003
3 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-14 2.027
4 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer Average 2.031
5 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject 2.099
6 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair Kalashviv 2.159
7 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-18 2.234
8 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Tobin855115 2.282
9 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-5 2.297
10 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.346
11 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_father 2.357
12 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-2 2.397
13 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_mother 2.46
14 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.46
15 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-21 2.468
16 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati Average 2.485
17 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Average 2.54
18 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Tobin842108 2.553
19 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kshatriya 195 2.559
20 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20911 2.581
21 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_26284729292 2.597
22 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-11 2.647
23 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20876 2.648
24 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_sister 2.702
25 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore Average 2.708
26 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-9 2.709
27 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-17 2.736
28 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-19 2.763
29 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-12 2.857
30 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20849 2.864
31 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_soulblighter_vathula 2.882
32 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20899 2.894
33 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20869 2.916
34 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-15 2.958
35 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-19 2.98
36 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore HG02600 2.989
37 Kerala_Nair:Kart Velamas VELZ260 3.016
38 Kerala_Nair:Kart Tharu D260 3.021
39 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya JosephN 3.031
40 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kshatriya Average 3.035
41 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-4 3.04
42 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-1 3.063
43 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20847 3.069
44 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore HG02601 3.076
45 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB003 3.076
46 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA21088 3.142
47 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair bmoney 3.148

bmoney
11-22-2018, 01:45 PM
Soulblighter is the closest AG user to me and I get him before any Malayali sample, though hes 2.8 which isnt a particularly close distance. Hes a Vadama Iyer

Im pretty sure that i'll get an under 2 fit when we start getting southern Karnataka samples

For me Trajects sis is the closest Malayali and Traject is the farthest :S go figure. She is the only Keralite under a 3 fit for me

The next closest is one of Knanaya samples (Tobin). Kart and Trajects father are equally distance >3.

suprisingly Vishankar is even further, I even get 2 of the Tobin Knanaya samples before him. He clusters near one of the Tobin samples and Rusty for me

Traject is the furthest for me @3.6

1 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Nair Average 2.056
2 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-18 2.226
3 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer Average 2.277
4 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-5 2.399
5 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-4 2.652
6 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.689
7 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.712
8 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_soulblighter_vathula 2.756
9 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-11 2.792
10 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_traject_sister 2.851
11 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-19 2.875
12 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-15 2.897
13 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-21 2.912
14 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-12 2.943
15 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-3 2.962
16 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-13 2.98
17 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Knanaya Average 2.993
18 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Knanaya Tobin855115 2.996
19 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-9 3.038
20 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kshatriya Average 3.096
21 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-1 3.099
22 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Punjabi_Lahore HG02601 3.12
23 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_traject_father 3.137
24 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Nair Kart 3.148
25 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Gujarati NA20911 3.163
26 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-10 3.165
27 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-14 3.187
28 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-15 3.209
29 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB003 3.216
30 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Knanaya Tobin842108 3.237
31 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-8 3.258
32 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Gujarati Average 3.268
33 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kshatriya 195 3.272
34 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Gujarati NA20856 3.285
35 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-17 3.297
36 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-19 3.316
37 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_26284729292 3.348
38 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_traject_mother 3.363
39 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Nair Kalashviv 3.384
40 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kshatriya 198 3.385
41 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Knanaya Tobin552458 3.451
42 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-7 3.466
43 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Kerala_Knanaya JosephN 3.49
44 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_Varun 3.495
45 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-20 3.499
46 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_West_Bengal BR2_4 3.531
47 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Iyer IR-1-2 3.542
48 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_West_Bengal BR2_3 3.542
49 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Punjabi_Lahore Average 3.546
50 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Brahmin_West_Bengal BR2_16 3.55
51 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Gujarati NA20869 3.556
52 Kerala_Nair:bmoney Custom AGUser_traject 3.58

Kart
11-22-2018, 05:16 PM
Got Kart added to the checkfit tool.

Traject is the closest as expected though Vishankar is just 0.06 higher than Traject

Trajects sis seems the most North Indian shifted out of his fam

Rusty (JosephN) is the furthest Knanaya sample from her, the other 2 (Tobin) arent too far from her (under 3 which is close)

She gets a Punjabi Lahore sample before she gets me lol

1 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair Average 1.402
2 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-13 2.003
3 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-14 2.027
4 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer Average 2.031
5 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject 2.099
6 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair Kalashviv 2.159
7 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-18 2.234
8 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Tobin855115 2.282
9 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-5 2.297
10 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB001 2.346
11 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_father 2.357
12 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-2 2.397
13 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_mother 2.46
14 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu Average 2.46
15 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-21 2.468
16 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati Average 2.485
17 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Average 2.54
18 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya Tobin842108 2.553
19 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kshatriya 195 2.559
20 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20911 2.581
21 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_26284729292 2.597
22 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-11 2.647
23 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20876 2.648
24 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_traject_sister 2.702
25 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore Average 2.708
26 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-9 2.709
27 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-17 2.736
28 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-19 2.763
29 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-12 2.857
30 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20849 2.864
31 Kerala_Nair:Kart Custom AGUser_soulblighter_vathula 2.882
32 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20899 2.894
33 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20869 2.916
34 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Gujarat GBR-15 2.958
35 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-19 2.98
36 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore HG02600 2.989
37 Kerala_Nair:Kart Velamas VELZ260 3.016
38 Kerala_Nair:Kart Tharu D260 3.021
39 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Knanaya JosephN 3.031
40 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kshatriya Average 3.035
41 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-4 3.04
42 Kerala_Nair:Kart Iyer IR-1-1 3.063
43 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA20847 3.069
44 Kerala_Nair:Kart Punjabi_Lahore HG02601 3.076
45 Kerala_Nair:Kart Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu SB003 3.076
46 Kerala_Nair:Kart Gujarati NA21088 3.142
47 Kerala_Nair:Kart Kerala_Nair bmoney 3.148

nice :) very cool.

vishankar
11-22-2018, 07:15 PM
quite funny!...on pegasus i had some 8.8 pontic steppe just a little lesser than bmoney with more tribal admixture....but I moved away from him in the above fit tools!...also my nmonte closely related population is gujarati d and tharu, rather than the ubiquitious south indian brahmin...the lahore punjabi is closer to me than i expected

bmoney
11-23-2018, 12:53 AM
is this guy Knanaya?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Varghese

He seems to have ME influence in his phenotype

Kart
11-23-2018, 01:10 AM
is this guy Knanaya?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Varghese

He seems to have ME influence in his phenotype

can't really tell unless someone recognizes that family name.. noozhumurry

Kart
11-23-2018, 01:12 AM
is this guy Knanaya?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Varghese

He seems to have ME influence in his phenotype

lol I googled the family name and found out he's from my place. My dad knows the family. He's Mar Thoma.

bmoney
11-23-2018, 01:24 AM
lol I googled the family name and found out he's from my place. My dad knows the family. He's Mar Thoma.

What does Mar Thoma mean?

Kart
11-23-2018, 01:29 AM
What does Mar Thoma mean?

Mar Thoma is a sub-denomination of Syrian Christianity. They are the most "liberal" Nasrani denomination in that they accept conversions into their church.

"After the Coonan Cross Oath, between 1661 and 1662, out of the 116 churches, the Roman Catholics claimed eighty-four churches, and Archdeacon Mar Thoma I and Syrian nasranis thirty-two churches. The eighty-four churches and their congregations were the body from which the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and Chaldean Syrian Church have descended. The other thirty-two churches and their congregations were the body from which the Malankara Syrian Church (Jacobites & Orthodox), Malabar Independent Syrian Church (1772), Mar Thoma Syrian Church (1874),"

check out : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/SaintThomasChristian%27sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png

Basically the Portuguese sent missionaries to Kerala to convert the Nasranis to Catholicism. Most did convert, but the rest broke off from the church and formed all the denominations that exist today.

Rustyshakelford
11-23-2018, 04:31 AM
Mar Thoma is a sub-denomination of Syrian Christianity. They are the most "liberal" Nasrani denomination in that they accept conversions into their church.

"After the Coonan Cross Oath, between 1661 and 1662, out of the 116 churches, the Roman Catholics claimed eighty-four churches, and Archdeacon Mar Thoma I and Syrian nasranis thirty-two churches. The eighty-four churches and their congregations were the body from which the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and Chaldean Syrian Church have descended. The other thirty-two churches and their congregations were the body from which the Malankara Syrian Church (Jacobites & Orthodox), Malabar Independent Syrian Church (1772), Mar Thoma Syrian Church (1874),"

check out : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/SaintThomasChristian%27sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png

Basically the Portuguese sent missionaries to Kerala to convert the Nasranis to Catholicism. Most did convert, but the rest broke off from the church and formed all the denominations that exist today.

Technically speaking all Kerala Christians were already in communion with Rome via the Chaldean church of Baghdad even before the arrival of the Portuguese. Problems only arose when they attempted to latinize the church and take away the original form of worship. The group that remained loyal were called ‘pazhayakoor’ (84 churches) and the group that rebelled were the ‘puthenkoor’ (32 churches). Pazhayakoor people are today’s Syro malabar Catholics. Puthenkoor ended up pledging allegiance to the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.
Marthoma church was formed when some of the puthenkoor Syrian Christians got influenced by the Anglican teachings brought by the British. Some Syrians became full on Anglican and joined the CSI church. Technically they are more open to conversions due to the Protestant influence but from what I’ve heard the old families still marry among themselves and the lower caste converts are restricted from the higher offices of the church.
I think BMG is Marthomite so he would know more about that.

BMG
11-23-2018, 02:07 PM
Technically speaking all Kerala Christians were already in communion with Rome via the Chaldean church of Baghdad even before the arrival of the Portuguese. Problems only arose when they attempted to latinize the church and take away the original form of worship. The group that remained loyal were called ‘pazhayakoor’ (84 churches) and the group that rebelled were the ‘puthenkoor’ (32 churches). Pazhayakoor people are today’s Syro malabar Catholics. Puthenkoor ended up pledging allegiance to the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.
Marthoma church was formed when some of the puthenkoor Syrian Christians got influenced by the Anglican teachings brought by the British. Some Syrians became full on Anglican and joined the CSI church. Technically they are more open to conversions due to the Protestant influence but from what I’ve heard the old families still marry among themselves and the lower caste converts are restricted from the higher offices of the church.
I think BMG is Marthomite so he would know more about that.
My family is only nominally christian and my father is an athiest . So i don't know much about church activities and all . But i think marthomites are generally more liberal than other syrian christian churches especially in traditions and rules etc .Many male relatives in my extended family tend to be closet athiests . As far as the missionary activities i am not aware of any in kerala but they do have some in north karnataka , vidarbha and chattisgarh areas . i may be wrong though .

BMG
11-23-2018, 02:14 PM
Technically speaking all Kerala Christians were already in communion with Rome via the Chaldean church of Baghdad even before the arrival of the Portuguese.

I think the Chaldean catholic church came to existence after the portugese arrival . We were actually in communion with church of the east who was not in communion with rome .

BMG
11-23-2018, 04:31 PM
Kerala brahmin harappa results

1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Rustyshakelford
11-23-2018, 04:48 PM
I think the Chaldean catholic church came to existence after the portugese arrival . We were actually in communion with church of the east who was not in communion with rome .

The point I was trying to make is that we came in communion with Rome indirectly via the Chaldean Catholic Church and not because of Portuguese missionary work. I was wrong to say it was before Portuguese ‘arrival’ what I meant was it was before Portuguese religious supremacy over Kerala. When the Portuguese arrived the bishop here was Mar Jacob who was sent by the Church of the East as was custom, but in 1552 the Church of the east split and one group submitted to Rome. This group is the Chaldean Catholic Church and Mar Jacob was beholden to this group and thus all Kerala Christians technically became Catholic. His successor Mar Abraham was also sent from Babylon by the Chaldean Patriarch and he had express permission from the Pope of Rome to govern Kerala.
But by the time of Mar Abraham the Portuguese had gained a lot more power politically in Kerala and they were less willing to tolerate a Chaldean presence. They made things difficult for mar Abraham and tried to put him on trial in Goa many times. After the death of Mar Abraham the Portuguese asserted themselves by preventing the Chaldean church from sending any more bishops to succeed him.
After this point we had Portuguese bishops with bishop Francis Ros being the first one.
So in summary we were in communion with Rome via mar jacob and mar Abraham so the Portuguese teachnically didn’t ‘convert’ us into Catholicism. But they did try to change the liturgy and mode of worship and instituted a whole new European hierarchy.

BMG
11-23-2018, 05:21 PM
We will have one bunt sample as well. One of my friend have already ordered a test .She is waiting for the kit to reach her.

BMG
11-23-2018, 05:46 PM
Kerala brahmin harappa results

1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Another one
1 S-Indian 43.87
2 Baloch 36.52
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.33
5 SE-Asian 1.58
6 NE-Asian 0.91
7 Beringian 0.77
8 American 0.75
9 SW-Asian 0.71
10 Papuan 0.23

Kart
11-23-2018, 05:48 PM
Another one
1 S-Indian 43.87
2 Baloch 36.52
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.33
5 SE-Asian 1.58
6 NE-Asian 0.91
7 Beringian 0.77
8 American 0.75
9 SW-Asian 0.71
10 Papuan 0.23

can you find a UP Brahmin Harappa, I just want to compare. Brahmins came to Kerala from present day UP right?


We will have one bunt sample as well. One of my friend have already ordered a test .She is waiting for the kit to reach her.

How do you have all these friends from different communities lol Where do you live if you don't mind.

bmoney
11-23-2018, 05:52 PM
can you find a UP Brahmin Harappa, I just want to compare. Brahmins came to Kerala from present day UP right?

yup Mayur Sharma/Varma from Shimoga Karnatak invited everyone in because he loved Indo-Aryans for some reason

Ahichattra/Ahikshetra near modern day Bareilly is where they are meant to be originally from along with proto Nair/Bunt

Kart
11-23-2018, 05:56 PM
yup Mayur Sharma/Varma from Gokarn Karnatak invited everyone in because he loved Indo-Aryans for some reason

Ahichattra/Ahikshetra near modern day Bareilly is where they are meant to be originally from along with proto Nair/Bunt

I took a look at UP Brahmin on Zack Ajmal's spreadsheet. The only major difference I see is in the proportion of SW Asian and Caucasian. Surprisingly Kerala Brahmins have more Caucasian AND NW Asian whereas UP Brahmins have more NE Euro.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=0

BMG
11-23-2018, 06:01 PM
can you find a UP Brahmin Harappa, I just want to compare. Brahmins came to Kerala from present day UP right?



How do you have all these friends from different communities lol Where do you live if you don't mind.
Kerala brahmin samples are my gedmatch matches .I don't know them personally .

Kart
11-23-2018, 06:11 PM
Kerala brahmin samples are my gedmatch matches .I don't know them personally .

I'm barely getting any Malayalee matches. Only 7 so far. Out of the 7, four of them are from the same family. :|

BMG
11-23-2018, 06:24 PM
I'm barely getting any Malayalee matches. Only 7 so far. Out of the 7, four of them are from the same family. :|
I get lots of them. At least 50 Christian samples and at least 10 other confirmed malayalis as well

Rustyshakelford
11-23-2018, 07:13 PM
Another one
1 S-Indian 43.87
2 Baloch 36.52
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.33
5 SE-Asian 1.58
6 NE-Asian 0.91
7 Beringian 0.77
8 American 0.75
9 SW-Asian 0.71
10 Papuan 0.23

Could you post their oracles? Curious to see what they look like.

BMG
11-24-2018, 03:10 AM
Could you post their oracles? Curious to see what they look like.

Kit 1


# Population (source) Distance
1 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.17
2 meghawal (reich) 4.7
3 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.77
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.82
5 gujarati (harappa) 4.97
6 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.1
7 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.21
8 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.52
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.53
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.97
11 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.11
12 rajasthani (harappa) 6.43
13 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.73
14 kerala-christian (harappa) 7.18
15 bihari-muslim (harappa) 7.39
16 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.53
17 vaish (reich) 7.75
18 up (harappa) 8.41
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.81
20 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% karnataka (harappa) + 45.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.27
2 81.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 18.2% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.3
3 53.5% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.41
4 58.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 41.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 2.5
5 54% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.58
6 60.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 39.6% vysya (reich) @ 2.61
7 50.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 49.2% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.62
8 83.7% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 16.3% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.62
9 56.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 43.4% kurumba (metspalu) @ 2.62
10 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 2.63
11 57.9% karnataka (harappa) + 42.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.64
12 55.8% punjabi-arain (xing) + 44.2% dusadh (metspalu) @ 2.73
13 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% hallaki (reich) @ 2.73
14 69.4% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 30.6% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.75
15 54.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 45.6% lodi (reich) @ 2.75
16 51.7% velama (metspalu) + 48.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.76
17 55.7% sindhi (hgdp) + 44.3% hallaki (reich) @ 2.76
18 54% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 46% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.76
19 65.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 34.6% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.8
20 91.3% tn-brahmin (xing) + 8.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.83

Kit 2

# Population (source) Distance
1 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.35
2 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.43
3 meghawal (reich) 4.74
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.85
5 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.96
6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 5.29
7 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.47
8 gujarati (harappa) 5.54
9 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.67
10 rajasthani (harappa) 5.78
11 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 6.07
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.17
13 kerala-christian (harappa) 6.58
14 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.88
15 ap-brahmin (xing) 7.01
16 vaish (reich) 7.02
17 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.24
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 7.64
19 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.75
20 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.93

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 5.6% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.64
2 58% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 42% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.66
3 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% adygei (hgdp) @ 1.67
4 94.6% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 5.4% georgian (behar) @ 1.67
5 54.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 45.2% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.69
6 93.5% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.5% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 1.7
7 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 1.71
8 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.74
9 59.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 40.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.76
10 54.3% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 45.7% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.79
11 93.2% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.8% lezgin (behar) @ 1.79
12 87.8% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 12.2% lezgin (behar) @ 1.81
13 93.3% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.7% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.83
14 62.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 37.2% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.85
15 50.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 49.2% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.88
16 50.1% vysya (reich) + 49.9% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.89
17 92.7% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 7.3% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.89
18 57.4% dusadh (metspalu) + 42.6% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.9
19 93.1% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.9% urkarah (xing) @ 1.9
20 94% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6% armenian (behar) @ 1.91

Kart
11-24-2018, 07:02 AM
They donít get Cochin Jew at all. The rest of us got it right?

vishankar
11-24-2018, 01:41 PM
yeah...right!..I was thinking, that we need coordinates more than gedmatch numbers here,,,, to help in nmonte runs/ pegasus calculators...!

vishankar
11-24-2018, 01:47 PM
there is a ancestry kit sale of just 39 usd going on till november 26th ...ft tree dna!...

BMG
11-25-2018, 03:30 PM
Kit 1


# Population (source) Distance
1 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.17
2 meghawal (reich) 4.7
3 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.77
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.82
5 gujarati (harappa) 4.97
6 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.1
7 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.21
8 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.52
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.53
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.97
11 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.11
12 rajasthani (harappa) 6.43
13 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.73
14 kerala-christian (harappa) 7.18
15 bihari-muslim (harappa) 7.39
16 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.53
17 vaish (reich) 7.75
18 up (harappa) 8.41
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.81
20 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% karnataka (harappa) + 45.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.27
2 81.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 18.2% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.3
3 53.5% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.41
4 58.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 41.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 2.5
5 54% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.58
6 60.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 39.6% vysya (reich) @ 2.61
7 50.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 49.2% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.62
8 83.7% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 16.3% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.62
9 56.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 43.4% kurumba (metspalu) @ 2.62
10 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 2.63
11 57.9% karnataka (harappa) + 42.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.64
12 55.8% punjabi-arain (xing) + 44.2% dusadh (metspalu) @ 2.73
13 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% hallaki (reich) @ 2.73
14 69.4% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 30.6% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.75
15 54.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 45.6% lodi (reich) @ 2.75
16 51.7% velama (metspalu) + 48.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.76
17 55.7% sindhi (hgdp) + 44.3% hallaki (reich) @ 2.76
18 54% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 46% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.76
19 65.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 34.6% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.8
20 91.3% tn-brahmin (xing) + 8.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.83

Kit 2

# Population (source) Distance
1 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.35
2 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.43
3 meghawal (reich) 4.74
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.85
5 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.96
6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 5.29
7 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.47
8 gujarati (harappa) 5.54
9 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.67
10 rajasthani (harappa) 5.78
11 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 6.07
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.17
13 kerala-christian (harappa) 6.58
14 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.88
15 ap-brahmin (xing) 7.01
16 vaish (reich) 7.02
17 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.24
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 7.64
19 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.75
20 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.93

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 5.6% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.64
2 58% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 42% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.66
3 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% adygei (hgdp) @ 1.67
4 94.6% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 5.4% georgian (behar) @ 1.67
5 54.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 45.2% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.69
6 93.5% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.5% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 1.7
7 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 1.71
8 93.8% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.2% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.74
9 59.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 40.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.76
10 54.3% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 45.7% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.79
11 93.2% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.8% lezgin (behar) @ 1.79
12 87.8% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 12.2% lezgin (behar) @ 1.81
13 93.3% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.7% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.83
14 62.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 37.2% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.85
15 50.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 49.2% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.88
16 50.1% vysya (reich) + 49.9% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.89
17 92.7% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 7.3% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.89
18 57.4% dusadh (metspalu) + 42.6% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.9
19 93.1% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6.9% urkarah (xing) @ 1.9
20 94% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 6% armenian (behar) @ 1.91

The 2nd kit is not a brahmin but a menon from a prominent matrilineal family in palakkad district . That family often had marital alliances with not only brahmins but also with cochin royal family .

Rustyshakelford
11-26-2018, 12:51 AM
The 2nd kit is not a brahmin but a menon from a prominent matrilineal family in palakkad district . That family often had marital alliances with not only brahmins but also with cochin royal family .

Interesting how kit 2 has the bigger Caucasian+NE euro than the actual Brahmin in kit 1, although they do make up for it with Med. kit 1 has Kerala nair listed at a closer distance than for kit 2 as well.

@vishanker how long ago is your Brahmin admix from?

vishankar
11-26-2018, 02:33 AM
well rusty....my paternal great grandfather...i.e my fathers mother's father( simplifies matters)...maternal side I am not too sure, my mom speaks of embrandiri( tulu brahmin)/tam brahm admixture, but no Idea when that occurred!...can make enquiries though...

vishankar
11-26-2018, 02:37 AM
The menon is farther from the nair lol:)

vishankar
11-26-2018, 02:38 AM
what happened to bmoney ? account suspended? any way of getting him back?

Censored
11-26-2018, 02:55 AM
what happened to bmoney ? account suspended? any way of getting him back?

Yeah unfortunately. It's a temporary ban. I think it gets lifted after a week after the fact but not sure.

kush
11-26-2018, 03:04 AM
Yeah unfortunately. It's a temporary ban. I think it gets lifted after a week after the fact but not sure.

why is he banned? what happened?

Rustyshakelford
11-26-2018, 03:27 AM
why is he banned? what happened?

I think it’s cus of the comments he left on the thread in andaman islanders killing a missionary. The comments have been removed lol

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 01:29 AM
Heres two Kerala Hindu samples i found on gedmatch, not sure what their background is:

S-Indian 55.69
Baloch 33.33
Caucasian 4.18
NE-Euro 0.65
SE-Asian 0.20
Siberian 1.16
NE-Asian 1.23
Papuan 0.52
American -
Beringian -
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 1.73
San 0.20
E-African 0.95
Pygmy -
W-African 0.11



S-Indian 47.17
Baloch 36.09
Caucasian 5.24
NE-Euro 2.51
SE-Asian 2.05
Siberian -
NE-Asian 2.35
Papuan 1.27
American -
Beringian -
Mediterranean 1.00
SW-Asian 1.96
San -
E-African -
Pygmy 0.33
W-African -

Kart
11-28-2018, 03:22 AM
First one might be from a Tamil Muslim (Tulukkar) and 2nd one looks Nair-ish

edit: I'm an idiot lol ..First one could be ezhava..

can you post their oracles please :)

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 04:00 AM
First one might be from a Tamil Muslim (Tulukkar) and 2nd one looks Nair-ish

edit: I'm an idiot lol ..First one could be ezhava..

can you post their oracles please :)

based on the first and last name there's about a 99.9% chance the first sample is kerala hindu lol. from the oracles the second sample gets almost entirely kerala nair.
its funny how neither show up in each others match lists nor in yours. syrian christians on the other hand seem to match with each other to a greater degree, i think all of us get like 40+ matches on gedmatch almost entirely with other syrian christians. in my match list the only exceptions are a telugu sounding sample and a menon sample i posted earlier.

oracle for first:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54% kerala-christian (harappa) + 46% vysya (reich) @ 1.58
2 90.1% kurumba (metspalu) + 9.9% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.59
3 91.8% ap-reddy (harappa) + 8.2% irula (xing) @ 1.6
4 89.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 10.5% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.64
5 73.4% vysya (reich) + 26.6% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.69
6 86.1% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.72
7 55% velama (reich) + 45% tamil (harappa) @ 1.73
8 90.1% kurumba (metspalu) + 9.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.75
9 92% ap-reddy (harappa) + 8% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.76
10 54.7% tamil (harappa) + 45.3% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.79
11 86.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.79
12 79.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 20.3% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.79
13 58% kurumba (metspalu) + 42% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.83
14 84.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 15.5% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.83
15 86.8% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.85
16 54.8% naidu (reich) + 45.2% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.89
17 68.5% velama (reich) + 31.5% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 1.89
18 93.5% velama (reich) + 6.5% great-andamanese (reich) @ 1.9
19 86.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 13.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.92
20 85.4% kurumba (metspalu) + 14.6% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.94


second one:

1 67.3% ap-reddy (harappa) + 32.7% up-muslim (harappa) @ 1.94
2 77% karnataka (harappa) + 23% burusho (hgdp) @ 2.02
3 93.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 6.4% khasi (chaubey) @ 2.09
4 86.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 13.4% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 2.1
5 68.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 31.9% burusho (hgdp) @ 2.1
6 55.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 44.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.17
7 91.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 8.4% great-andamanese (reich) @ 2.18
8 70.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 29.9% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.2
9 74.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 25.9% kashmiri (harappa) @ 2.21
10 92.8% kerala-nair (harappa) + 7.2% onge (reich) @ 2.21
11 65.9% sinhalese (harappa) + 34.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.21
12 52.2% chenchu (metspalu) + 47.8% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.25
13 82.2% ap-reddy (harappa) + 17.8% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.25
14 76.6% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 23.4% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.26
15 63.4% sinhalese (harappa) + 36.6% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.29
16 96.1% kerala-nair (harappa) + 3.9% khmer-cambodian (xing) @ 2.3
17 66.6% karnataka (harappa) + 33.4% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.33
18 74.7% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 25.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.33
19 72.9% ap-reddy (harappa) + 27.1% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 2.33
20 54% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 46% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.33

Kart
11-28-2018, 04:17 AM
based on the first and last name there's about a 99.9% chance the first sample is kerala hindu lol. from the oracles the second sample gets almost entirely kerala nair.
its funny how neither show up in each others match lists nor in yours. syrian christians on the other hand seem to match with each other to a greater degree, i think all of us get like 40+ matches on gedmatch almost entirely with other syrian christians. in my match list the only exceptions are a telugu sounding sample and a menon sample i posted earlier.

oracle for first:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54% kerala-christian (harappa) + 46% vysya (reich) @ 1.58
2 90.1% kurumba (metspalu) + 9.9% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.59
3 91.8% ap-reddy (harappa) + 8.2% irula (xing) @ 1.6
4 89.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 10.5% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.64
5 73.4% vysya (reich) + 26.6% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.69
6 86.1% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.72
7 55% velama (reich) + 45% tamil (harappa) @ 1.73
8 90.1% kurumba (metspalu) + 9.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.75
9 92% ap-reddy (harappa) + 8% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.76
10 54.7% tamil (harappa) + 45.3% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.79
11 86.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.79
12 79.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 20.3% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.79
13 58% kurumba (metspalu) + 42% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.83
14 84.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 15.5% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.83
15 86.8% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 13.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.85
16 54.8% naidu (reich) + 45.2% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.89
17 68.5% velama (reich) + 31.5% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 1.89
18 93.5% velama (reich) + 6.5% great-andamanese (reich) @ 1.9
19 86.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 13.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.92
20 85.4% kurumba (metspalu) + 14.6% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.94


second one:

1 67.3% ap-reddy (harappa) + 32.7% up-muslim (harappa) @ 1.94
2 77% karnataka (harappa) + 23% burusho (hgdp) @ 2.02
3 93.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 6.4% khasi (chaubey) @ 2.09
4 86.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 13.4% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 2.1
5 68.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 31.9% burusho (hgdp) @ 2.1
6 55.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 44.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.17
7 91.6% kerala-nair (harappa) + 8.4% great-andamanese (reich) @ 2.18
8 70.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 29.9% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.2
9 74.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 25.9% kashmiri (harappa) @ 2.21
10 92.8% kerala-nair (harappa) + 7.2% onge (reich) @ 2.21
11 65.9% sinhalese (harappa) + 34.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.21
12 52.2% chenchu (metspalu) + 47.8% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.25
13 82.2% ap-reddy (harappa) + 17.8% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.25
14 76.6% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 23.4% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.26
15 63.4% sinhalese (harappa) + 36.6% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.29
16 96.1% kerala-nair (harappa) + 3.9% khmer-cambodian (xing) @ 2.3
17 66.6% karnataka (harappa) + 33.4% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.33
18 74.7% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 25.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.33
19 72.9% ap-reddy (harappa) + 27.1% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 2.33
20 54% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 46% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.33

I think Kerala Hindus have a lot of variation even within the same caste. For example, a Pillai and Nambiar might have slightly different genetic makeup.

Anyway the second sample definitely looks Nair. I haven't seen a kit that looks like kit 1 before :/ Maybe half Syrian Christian, half some kind of Hindu?

Kart
11-28-2018, 04:29 AM
A pulaya one:

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 71.51
2 Baloch 19.9
3 Papuan 2.5
4 SE-Asian 2.41
5 NE-Asian 1.82
6 American 0.97
7 Siberian 0.89

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.6% tn-dalit (xing) + 8.4% onge (reich) @ 1.54
2 98.7% ap-mala (xing) + 1.3% papuan (hgdp) @ 1.68
3 93.6% mala (reich) + 6.4% onge (reich) @ 1.71
4 98.4% ap-mala (xing) + 1.6% aus (reich) @ 1.72
5 98.6% ap-mala (xing) + 1.4% melanesian (hgdp) @ 1.78
6 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% han-chinese-south (1000genomes) @ 1.86
7 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% tujia (hgdp) @ 1.86
8 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% she (hgdp) @ 1.86
9 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% chinese-american (hapmap) @ 1.86
10 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% han (hgdp) @ 1.86
11 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% chinese (xing) @ 1.86
12 96.9% mala (reich) + 3.1% garo (chaubey) @ 1.86
13 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% singapore-chinese (sgvp) @ 1.86
14 97.7% mala (reich) + 2.3% miao (hgdp) @ 1.87
15 83% madiga (reich) + 17% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.87
16 98.1% mala (reich) + 1.9% melanesian (hgdp) @ 1.88
17 97.8% mala (reich) + 2.2% yi (hgdp) @ 1.89
18 97.9% mala (reich) + 2.1% chinese-beijing (1000genomes) @ 1.89
19 97% mala (reich) + 3% burmanese (chaubey) @ 1.89
20 93.5% mala (reich) + 6.5% great-andamanese (reich) @ 1.89

vishankar
11-28-2018, 02:10 PM
I think Kerala Hindus have a lot of variation even within the same caste. For example, a Pillai and Nambiar might have slightly different genetic makeup.

Anyway the second sample definitely looks Nair. I haven't seen a kit that looks like kit 1 before :/ Maybe half Syrian Christian, half some kind of Hindu?


yup... that is bmoneys line of thinking....he is a nambiar and I am a Pillai,he has marginally more pontic steppe and lesser tribal and south asian agriculturist than me... in his words I am a "more admixed" nair!....but my gut feeling is it could happen the other way round too...certain travancore and cochin nairs may score higher steppe than the malabar nambiar( by virtue of brahmin admixture)....I was talking to a Jacobite colleague of mine, and he felt Knanayas were the most inbred of the Malayalis, hence their rathe r unique genetic make up

vishankar
11-28-2018, 02:23 PM
sorry bmoney has more south asian agricultarist than me!...

BMG
11-28-2018, 04:54 PM
Another 2 possible malayali Hindu samples from my matches .

Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.04
2 Baloch 36.46
3 Caucasian 7.29
4 NE-Euro 3.7
5 SE-Asian 1.43
6 Papuan 1.26
7 NE-Asian 0.61
8 SW-Asian 0.42
9 Siberian 0.36
10 American 0.33
11 Mediterranean


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.19
2 Baloch 36.1
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.88
5 American 1.27
6 NE-Asian 0.7
7 SW-Asian 0.66
8 Mediterranean 0.35
9 Siberian 0.29
10 W-African 0.24

Kart
11-28-2018, 05:24 PM
yup... that is bmoneys line of thinking....he is a nambiar and I am a Pillai,he has marginally more pontic steppe and lesser tribal and south asian agriculturist than me... in his words I am a "more admixed" nair!....but my gut feeling is it could happen the other way round too...certain travancore and cochin nairs may score higher steppe than the malabar nambiar( by virtue of brahmin admixture)....I was talking to a Jacobite colleague of mine, and he felt Knanayas were the most inbred of the Malayalis, hence their rathe r unique genetic make up

Do you have bmoney's Harappa? I don't think I have seen it.



Knanayas are definitely inbred.. More inbred than Ashkanazi Jews. I saw a post somewhere on this forum about that. Even in the US, they encourage their kids to marry other knanayas. When they go to knanaya events, they try to set up their kids with other knanayas :| A knanaya girl I know married a martho guy... her parents weren't happy. When they figured the girl wouldn't budge, they were like "whatever, at least he's Christian." xD

vishankar
11-28-2018, 05:33 PM
I vaguely remember him mentioning his ne euro score as 6.33 or something in that range...have to check my inbox...
Yes knanayas are most inbred, and nairs most genetically diverse, david mahal's paper talks about 10 paternal ancestry lines among nairs!..

Kart
11-28-2018, 05:50 PM
I vaguely remember him mentioning his ne euro score as 6.33 or something in that range...have to check my inbox...
Yes knanayas are most inbred, and nairs most genetically diverse, david mahal's paper talks about 10 paternal ancestry lines among nairs!..

that's because nairs aren't just one caste. They're various castes that held Shudra, Vaishya and Kshatriya duties. From Vilakkithala Nair ( barber) to Samantha Kshatriya(kings). South India is unique in that our caste system only has two varnas, Brahmin and shudra.

vishankar
11-28-2018, 06:02 PM
So true....ritually shudras, but men for all seasons!( and reasons)....bmoney shared his kit number from 23 and me,( i got it from my inbox), but its not on GEDMATCH anymore...

Kart
11-28-2018, 06:11 PM
So true....ritually shudras, but men for all seasons!( and reasons)....bmoney shared his kit number from 23 and me,( i got it from my inbox), but its not on GEDMATCH anymore...

bummer..

Pillai was just a title that Nairs and some Syrian Christians got lol.. so you and I might be from different backgrounds, who knows lol Anyway can I see your harappa?

vishankar
11-28-2018, 06:36 PM
here it is:
Population
S-Indian 50.44
Baloch 34.07
Caucasian 6.11
NE-Euro 3.48
SE-Asian 0.28
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.46
Papuan 0.70
American -
Beringian 0.77
Mediterranean 1.97
SW-Asian 0.73
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African

vishankar
11-28-2018, 06:39 PM
also fom dna land you got some NW europe admixture...do you have the ancestral population reference for that?..I could not find it...

Kart
11-28-2018, 07:05 PM
also fom dna land you got some NW europe admixture...do you have the ancestral population reference for that?..I could not find it...

I heard dna.land is unreliable. All of the populations I get are Indian.

1 kerala-christian_harappa @ 3.393541
2 kerala-nair_harappa @ 3.612089
3 rajasthani_harappa @ 3.706189
4 tn-brahmin_xing @ 3.956310
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.004477
6 goan_harappa @ 4.034184
7 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.564535
8 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.922927
9 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 5.032223
10 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.265464
11 kerala_harappa @ 5.363791
12 ap-brahmin_xing @ 5.579534
13 meghawal_reich @ 5.799814
14 gujarati_harappa @ 5.827841
15 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.942640
16 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.546342
17 up_harappa @ 6.580101
18 kurmi_metspalu @ 6.912398
19 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 7.051025
20 lambadi_metspalu @ 7.070833

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 07:53 PM
Another 2 possible malayali Hindu samples from my matches .

Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.04
2 Baloch 36.46
3 Caucasian 7.29
4 NE-Euro 3.7
5 SE-Asian 1.43
6 Papuan 1.26
7 NE-Asian 0.61
8 SW-Asian 0.42
9 Siberian 0.36
10 American 0.33
11 Mediterranean


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.19
2 Baloch 36.1
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.88
5 American 1.27
6 NE-Asian 0.7
7 SW-Asian 0.66
8 Mediterranean 0.35
9 Siberian 0.29
10 W-African 0.24

You seem to get a lot of these high NE euro type matches, do you notice this pattern with your Syrian Christian matches as well? All of mine are generally a lot lower, I think the highest Iíve seen in my match list is the muthalaly sample.

Kart
11-28-2018, 08:23 PM
Which projects on gedmatch are the best ones for indians?

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 09:34 PM
Do you have bmoney's Harappa? I don't think I have seen it.



Knanayas are definitely inbred.. More inbred than Ashkanazi Jews. I saw a post somewhere on this forum about that. Even in the US, they encourage their kids to marry other knanayas. When they go to knanaya events, they try to set up their kids with other knanayas :| A knanaya girl I know married a martho guy... her parents weren't happy. When they figured the girl wouldn't budge, they were like "whatever, at least he's Christian." xD


Nairs versus Knanaya in regards to inbreeding is kind of an apples to oranges comparison though. The former make up like 15-20 percent of the Kerala population and have a vast geographic spread while the latter forms like 0.006 percent and can all trace back to a handful of villages in central Kerala. Naturally we are going to be more inbred.

Like you said nairs are kind of an amalgamation of different people who were granted shudra status ie the minimum requirement needed to serve the Brahmins. Groups like vilakithala nair were probably just granted de facto nair status cus there job required them to come into physical contact with Brahmins and other upper castes. Even still I don’t think other nairs ever considered them as ‘true’ nairs. The government too classifies them as OBC.

In terms of in group preference for marriage I think all communities in South Asia behave more or less the same in that regard, not particularly unique to the Knanaya.

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 09:49 PM
Which projects on gedmatch are the best ones for indians?

Whichever calculator you use you still have to compare it to other peopleís scores to orient yourself a bit. Iíd suggest going in the Ďhindií section of this forum where you can find a lot of ďpost your results...Ē type threads. Post your own and then compare with others on this site.

Kart
11-28-2018, 09:56 PM
Nairs versus Knanaya in regards to inbreeding is kind of an apples to oranges comparison though. The former make up like 15-20 percent of the Kerala population and have a vast geographic spread while the latter forms like 0.006 percent and can all trace back to a handful of villages in central Kerala. Naturally we are going to be more inbred.

Nairs didn't intermarry much before the formation of the NSS. Malabar Nairs still refuse to marry Central or South Kerala Nairs.


Like you said nairs are kind of an amalgamation of different people who were granted shudra status ie the minimum requirement needed to serve the Brahmins. Groups like vilakithala nair were probably just granted de facto nair status cus there job required them to come into contact with Brahmins and other upper castes. Even still I don’t think other nairs ever considered them as ‘true’ nairs. The government classified them as OBC.

Makes sense


In terms of in group preference for marriage I think all communities in South Asia behave more or less the same in that regard, not particularly unique to the Knanaya.

I'm talking about Indian Americans. Most people in India are backward as hell about caste..so not even gonna go there. Other Mallus in the US just want their kids to marry another Malayalee but knanaya parents get really upset if their kids marry from outside.

vishankar
11-28-2018, 10:51 PM
Nairs didn't intermarry much before the formation of the NSS. Malabar Nairs still refuse to marry Central or South Kerala Nairs.



Makes sense



I'm talking about Indian Americans. Most people in India are backward as hell about caste..so not even gonna go there. Other Mallus in the US just want their kids to marry another Malayalee but knanaya parents get really upset if their kids marry from outside.


I married a nair( poduval+ nambiar girl) from north malabar....:)

Kart
11-28-2018, 10:53 PM
I married a nair( poduval+ nambiar girl) from north malabar....:)

Arranged??? That's crazy lol

Rustyshakelford
11-28-2018, 10:57 PM
Nairs didn't intermarry much before the formation of the NSS. Malabar Nairs still refuse to marry Central or South Kerala Nairs.



Makes sense



I'm talking about Indian Americans. Most people in India are backward as hell about caste..so not even gonna go there. Other Mallus in the US just want their kids to marry another Malayalee but knanaya parents get really upset if their kids marry from outside.

Couldn’t preference for malayalees also be construed as “backwards”? Not trying to argue just wondering why you think it’s different.

Kart
11-28-2018, 10:58 PM
Couldn’t preference for malayalees also be construed as “backwards”? Not trying to argue just wondering why you think it’s different.

Yes that's why I said "most people in India" .. We had two honor killings in Kerala recently lol

BMG
11-29-2018, 01:50 AM
You seem to get a lot of these high NE euro type matches, do you notice this pattern with your Syrian Christian matches as well? All of mine are generally a lot lower, I think the highest Iíve seen in my match list is the muthalaly sample.
Highest ne euro I have seen among Syrian Christians is my paternal grandmother with 4.95% . Among my matches in gedmatch there are too many matches but highest ne euro I have seen is 4.43% .Many have above 3% . Many have below 1% too .I think I have higher non Christian matches but I haven't seen everybody's match list .

BMG
11-29-2018, 02:02 AM
Which projects on gedmatch are the best ones for indians?

I think Harappa is better for south Asians since more south asian pops are there to compare with . Eurogenes and puntdna calcs are also very good.

BMG
11-29-2018, 02:36 AM
I'm talking about Indian Americans. Most people in India are backward as hell about caste..so not even gonna go there. Other Mallus in the US just want their kids to marry another Malayalee but knanaya parents get really upset if their kids marry from outside.
Two of my great aunts who have migrated to Americas during the nurse boom in early 1970's have ended up marrying a Punjabi and a Srilankan Tamil . Even at that time their parents in Kerala did not have any issues with the marriage. I am surprised why Indians are carrying the caste baggage even after migrating to foreign countries . If anybody here is in US now , what about the young generation who are born and brought up there .Do they still identify with their caste ?

Kart
11-29-2018, 02:42 AM
Two of my great aunts who have migrated to Americas during the nurse boom in early 1970's have ended up marrying a Punjabi and a Srilankan Tamil . Even at that time their parents in Kerala did not have any issues with the marriage. I am surprised why Indians are carrying the caste baggage even after migrating to foreign countries . If anybody here is in US now , what about the young generation who are born and brought up there .Do they still identify with their caste ?

your aunts were brave!! haha

younger generation doesn't care about caste or race. One of my cousins had a kid with a black woman out of wedlock. My aunt and uncle didn't tell anyone until that kid showed up at his dad's future wedding lol That same cousin ended up marrying a Chinese woman. Another one was engaged to a Punjabi woman, but she broke it off..so he's now married to a White woman. Most of my cousins are married to Malayalee Christians. So yeah the kids who were raised here don't care, but the parents care a great deal. My ex was Marthoma.. broke up after he insisted I convert. No thanks.

vishankar
11-29-2018, 02:50 AM
Arranged??? That's crazy lol

yup...arranged, there are some cultural and linguistic issues , but overall I am very happy!:)

Kart
11-29-2018, 02:53 AM
yup...arranged, there are some cultural and linguistic issues , but overall I am very happy!:)

haha that's cool...I bet she says "chaadichu" for throwing out something ;) j/k

Anyway, I thought Podhuval was an Ambalavasi caste..not Nair.

BMG
11-29-2018, 02:53 AM
your aunts were brave!! haha

younger generation doesn't care about caste or race. One of my cousins had a kid with a black woman out of wedlock. My aunt and uncle didn't tell anyone until that kid showed up at his dad's future wedding lol That same cousin ended up marrying a Chinese woman. Another one was engaged to a Punjabi woman, but she broke it off..so he's now married to a White woman. Most of my cousins are married to Malayalee Christians. So yeah the kids who were raised here don't care, but the parents care a great deal. My ex was Marthoma.. broke up after he insisted I convert. No thanks.

I thought so.

Kopfjšger
11-29-2018, 03:13 AM
your aunts were brave!! haha

younger generation doesn't care about caste or race. One of my cousins had a kid with a black woman out of wedlock. My aunt and uncle didn't tell anyone until that kid showed up at his dad's future wedding lol That same cousin ended up marrying a Chinese woman. Another one was engaged to a Punjabi woman, but she broke it off..so he's now married to a White woman. Most of my cousins are married to Malayalee Christians. So yeah the kids who were raised here don't care, but the parents care a great deal. My ex was Marthoma.. broke up after he insisted I convert. No thanks.

Maybe a little off-topic, but my good friend and roommate from college (Pillay) was born in New York, but his parents are from India. His dad is from Kerala and his mother's last name is Lawrence (I think from northern India?). Anyway, my friend only likes white girls, and there is not much Indian about him lol.

Even when I visit his parents, his dad is always like, "Neal, how the f&*k are ya? Want a beer?", in an Indian accent. Then, he hands me a Warsteiner lol. My friend's parents actually immigrated to South Africa before coming to the US, and were activists there.

Kart
11-29-2018, 03:26 AM
Maybe a little off-topic, but my good friend and roommate from college (Pillay) was born in New York, but his parents are from India. His dad is from Kerala and his mother's last name is Lawrence (I think from northern India?). Anyway, my friend only likes white girls, and there is not much Indian about him lol.

Even when I visit his parents, his dad is always like, "Neal, how the f&*k are ya? Want a beer?", in an Indian accent. Then, he hands me a Warsteiner lol. My friend's parents actually immigrated to South Africa before coming to the US, and were activists there.

haha nice. Hope your friend found the girl he was looking for lol

Lawrence is a generic Christian name in India..so she could be from the North or the South. Were they Hindu or Christian? because some Christians have the last name Pillai/Pillay too.

26284729292
11-29-2018, 03:29 AM
your aunts were brave!! haha

younger generation doesn't care about caste or race. One of my cousins had a kid with a black woman out of wedlock. My aunt and uncle didn't tell anyone until that kid showed up at his dad's future wedding lol That same cousin ended up marrying a Chinese woman. Another one was engaged to a Punjabi woman, but she broke it off..so he's now married to a White woman. Most of my cousins are married to Malayalee Christians. So yeah the kids who were raised here don't care, but the parents care a great deal. My ex was Marthoma.. broke up after he insisted I convert. No thanks.

Sorry if i'm butting in here but wanted to give my 2 cents (also hi guys). I've dated 3 girls in my life. One persian. One a nagar brahmin (gujarat) and the other a jatt sikh. The jatt girl's parents were furious and the nagar girl's parents were not happy and both broke it off with me. Ironically the only one whose direct family wasn't up tight about it was the persian girl, though I'm not with her anymore. Maybe it matters less, but some people will always find ways to hold onto cultural/caste ties. I see everyone as a human being only though.

Kart
11-29-2018, 03:45 AM
Sorry if i'm butting in here but wanted to give my 2 cents (also hi guys). I've dated 3 girls in my life. One persian. One a nagar brahmin (gujarat) and the other a jatt sikh. The jatt girl's parents were furious and the nagar girl's parents were not happy and both broke it off with me. Ironically the only one whose direct family wasn't up tight about it was the persian girl, though I'm not with her anymore. Maybe it matters less, but some people will always find ways to hold onto cultural/caste ties. I see everyone as a human being only though.

Indian parents..shake my damn head! My mom is a casteist too.. She doesn't want me marrying anyone who's a non-Hindu. and she keeps bringing up marriage. Desi parents think our ultimate aim is to get married.

Anyway, I noticed Persians in America are generally very liberal.

Mandoos
11-29-2018, 04:49 AM
your aunts were brave!! haha

younger generation doesn't care about caste or race. One of my cousins had a kid with a black woman out of wedlock. My aunt and uncle didn't tell anyone until that kid showed up at his dad's future wedding lol That same cousin ended up marrying a Chinese woman. Another one was engaged to a Punjabi woman, but she broke it off..so he's now married to a White woman. Most of my cousins are married to Malayalee Christians. So yeah the kids who were raised here don't care, but the parents care a great deal. My ex was Marthoma.. broke up after he insisted I convert. No thanks.

Malayalis in particular are hell-bent on religious affiliation over race or ethnicity when it comes to marriage. Maybe it has to do with the influence of Abrahamic religions.

Censored
11-29-2018, 05:02 AM
Indian parents..shake my damn head! My mom is a casteist too.. She doesn't want me marrying anyone who's a non-Hindu. and she keeps bringing up marriage. Desi parents think our ultimate aim is to get married.

Anyway, I noticed Persians in America are generally very liberal.

Because a lot of them are supporters of the Shah Pahlavi who fled after the revolution.

Kopfjšger
11-29-2018, 10:35 AM
haha nice. Hope your friend found the girl he was looking for lol

Lawrence is a generic Christian name in India..so she could be from the North or the South. Were they Hindu or Christian? because some Christians have the last name Pillai/Pillay too.

Kyle's mom's family is Christian, yeah. His dad's is Hindu. I know they visit Kerala every once in awhile.

vishankar
11-29-2018, 02:02 PM
haha that's cool...I bet she says "chaadichu" for throwing out something ;) j/k

Anyway, I thought Podhuval was an Ambalavasi caste..not Nair.



ha! ha!, spot on...once after having my meals on a banana leaf( as is the norm in kerala), my wife's granpa told me - adh edhith chaadu- imagine what I was abt to do?!!!!
payyanur poduvals are not ambalavasis...unlike thrissur / ernakulam poduvals-they also consider themselves above nairs, nambiars, but nowadays marital relations occur very frequently with nairs and nambiars....of course phenotypically they look more like ambalavasis( short ,fair ( generally),)

vishankar
11-29-2018, 02:14 PM
I am still laughing at Kart's "chaadichu" comment....in kannur, payyanur however they would say - chaadinni--:)

vishankar
11-29-2018, 02:16 PM
just a passing thought....higher ne europe need not make you fair!...never mix genes and looks- The highest NE euro in India is the haryanvi Jats, and they are a light tanned brown rather than fair like a kashmiri/ punjabi khatri....

Kart
11-29-2018, 03:33 PM
ha! ha!, spot on...once after having my meals on a banana leaf( as is the norm in kerala), my wife's granpa told me - adh edhith chaadu- imagine what I was abt to do?!!!!
payyanur poduvals are not ambalavasis...unlike thrissur / ernakulam poduvals-they also consider themselves above nairs, nambiars, but nowadays marital relations occur very frequently with nairs and nambiars....of course phenotypically they look more like ambalavasis( short ,fair ( generally),)

So how do they say jump? haha

Some Nambiars are Ambalavasis too right? In Travancore Ambalavasis come below Nairs.

Kart
11-29-2018, 03:40 PM
just a passing thought....higher ne europe need not make you fair!...never mix genes and looks- The highest NE euro in India is the haryanvi Jats, and they are a light tanned brown rather than fair like a kashmiri/ punjabi khatri....

I noticed a lot of Jat men tend to look "stereotypically Indian".. light brown/tan skin color... thick eyebrows..HAIRY body lol

Where does hairiness come from? My mom is hairless but my dad gave me the hairiest body. :(

vishankar
11-29-2018, 04:35 PM
Somewhere on anthrogenica I read, that the hairiness is due to Iran chalcolithic presence....very likely!

Mandoos
11-29-2018, 06:35 PM
my uncle has hairs growing out of his ears. Something tells me that this is a uniquely indian trait...

Kart
11-29-2018, 06:46 PM
my uncle has hairs growing out of his ears. Something tells me that this is a uniquely indian trait...

haha .. My biology teacher who was Italian had ear hair :D

Thomas48
11-29-2018, 07:55 PM
Nairs didn't intermarry much before the formation of the NSS. Malabar Nairs still refuse to marry Central or South Kerala Nairs.



Makes sense



I'm talking about Indian Americans. Most people in India are backward as hell about caste..so not even gonna go there. Other Mallus in the US just want their kids to marry another Malayalee but knanaya parents get really upset if their kids marry from outside.

Depends on the Knanaya Family in particular. My family has a preference for marrying Knanaya to keep up the ancient blood lines from the Middle East and what not but we’re also much more liberal. I currently have an Italian, Brazilian, Pakistani Muslim, White and Punjabi cousins in law :P . Along with that I also have a Nair uncle, Jacobite Uncle, and a Kerala Brahmin aunt (The Brahmin-Knanaya love marriage was quite the trainwreck in the 1970’s haha but after some disowning here and there and later reunions luckily things worked out). The Knanaya do however practice a form of ritual excommunication, meaning that those that marry out are no longer considered Knanaya. Tho personally my family could care less :biggrin1:, those of us that remain Knanaya do and those that don’t don’t.

Kart
11-29-2018, 08:12 PM
Depends on the Knanaya Family in particular. My family has a preference for marrying Knanaya to keep up the ancient blood lines from the Middle East and what not but we’re also much more liberal.

You're contradicting yourself with that line. Caste/community based marriage is the Indian equivalent of racism. What's the point of keeping the "ancient blood line" ?

Nairs also like to brag about their Brahmin sambandhams, which I think was a disgusting practice that exploited women.


I currently have an Italian, Brazilian, Pakistani Muslim, and Punjabi cousins in law ��. Along with that I also have a Nair uncle, Jacobite Uncle, and a Kerala Brahmin aunt (The Brahmin-Knanaya love marriage was quite the trainwreck in the 1970’s haha but after some disowning here and there and later reunions luckily things worked out). The Knanaya do however practice a form of ritual excommunication, meaning that those that marry out are no longer considered Knanaya. Tho personally my family could care less ��, those of us that remain Knanaya do and those that don’t don’t.

Well at least your family got some outside blood coming in, which is a good thing! That excommunication is going to come bite them in the ass in the future when they run out of people to marry.

Thomas48
11-29-2018, 08:31 PM
You're contradicting yourself with that line. Caste/community based marriage is the Indian equivalent of racism. What's the point of keeping the "ancient blood line" ?

Nairs also like to brag about their Brahmin sambandhams, which I think was a disgusting practice that exploited women.



Well at least your family got some outside blood coming in, which is a good thing! That excommunication is going to come bite them in the ass in the future when they run out of people to marry.

Endogamy is simply an ancient marital practice that helps to maintain minority communities. The Knanaya being essentially a minority within a minority would have died out centuries ago if not for marrying within their own group and maintaining their identity. If they had not practiced endogamy they would have been absorbed within the much larger St. Thomas Christian community and would have been a lost community/culture, which is essentially what happened to all other Middle Eastern groups and peoples that joined the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala. You gotta remember that for tiny minorities like the Knanaya endogamy meant survival at least in the historical sense.

This is also not something that is distinct to India, endogamy and marrying within a specific group is what creates ethnic groups and their identities across the world. If not for endogamy and the creation of said identities, there would be no such thing as minority cultures but instead one large majority. In India however ethnic groups get slapped on the title “caste” as well and are put into the hierarchal system, which is of course terrible. The same is seen across the world historically and in the modern day to a certain extent but remove the word caste with class (socio-economic status).

I don’t find people wanting to maintain their ethnic group and or culture a bad thing. Tho for the Knanaya case I don’t think the whole excommunication thing necessary, especially because historically we probably practiced a more fluid-endogamy and not the strict endogamy seen today.

Tho my family does maintain a preference to marry Knanaya, again to maintain the culture, we are open to marrying outside and accepting of those who we marry. Hell even for those cousins that married out, my family did traditional Knanaya rituals on the new in laws. We had a Chandam Charthal (Knanaya male beautification ritual) ceremony for a white dude in our Tharavadu in Kottayam haha!

Mandoos
11-29-2018, 08:40 PM
A quote from Mar Ephrem, whom "syrian" Christians seem to adore:


‘Blessed art thou, O Light, like the lamp, the sun amidst darkness
hath placed; the earth darkened with sacrifices’ fumes to illuminate.
‘A land of people dark fell to thy lot that these in white robes
thou shouldest clothe and cleanse by baptism: a tainted land Thomas has purified.

the solar ray from the great orb; thy
grateful dawn India’s painful darkness doth dispel.
‘Thou the great lamp, one among the Twelve, with oil from the
Cross replenished, India’s dark night floodest with light.



the "missionary" evangelization of Kerala by the eastern/syrian churches was probably no less hegemonic than the presence of Nambudiris and the Portuguese in Kerala.

Personally, I would think twice before trying to "preserve" a bloodline from ancestors who would be disgusted by the color of your skin.

Kart
11-29-2018, 08:56 PM
Endogamy is simply an ancient marital practice that helps to maintain minority communities. The Knanaya being essentially a minority within a minority would have died out centuries ago if not for marrying within their own group and maintaining their identity. If they had not practiced endogamy they would have been absorbed within the much larger St. Thomas Christian community and would have been a lost community/culture, which is essentially what happened to all other Middle Eastern groups and peoples that joined the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala. You gotta remember that for tiny minorities like the Knanaya endogamy meant survival at least in the historical sense.

This is also not something that is distinct to India, endogamy and marrying within a specific group is what creates ethnic groups and their identities across the world. If not for endogamy and the creation of said identities, there would be no such thing as minority cultures but instead one large majority. In India however ethnic groups get slapped on the title “caste” as well and are put into the hierarchal system, which is of course terrible. The same is seen across the world historically and in the modern day to a certain extent but remove the word caste with class (socio-economic status).

I don’t find people wanting to maintain their ethnic group and or culture a bad thing. Tho for the Knanaya case I don’t think the whole excommunication thing necessary, especially because historically we probably practiced a more fluid-endogamy and not the strict endogamy seen today.

Tho my family does maintain a preference to marry Knanaya, again to maintain the culture, we are open to marrying outside and accepting of those who we marry. Hell even for those cousins that married out, my family did traditional Knanaya rituals on the new in laws. We had a Chandam Charthal (Knanaya male beautification ritual) ceremony for a white dude in our Tharavadu in Kottayam haha!
I donít agree with it but I respect your opinion. the reason the namboothiri community in Kerala is so small is because of their strict endogamy(1-2%). Only the oldest son was allowed to marry a namboothiri woman so their numbers dwindled. Youngest ones had sambandhams with Nairs. Knanaya population is even smaller than that, so thatís going to hurt them, thatís all Iím saying. At least the excommunication has to stop.

Iíve seen some Knanaya weddings on YouTube. Chantham Charthal looks fun lol and the madhuram one.. I forgot the name of it :)

Kart
11-29-2018, 09:06 PM
A quote from Mar Ephrem, whom "syrian" Christians seem to adore:



the "missionary" evangelization of Kerala by the eastern/syrian churches was probably no less hegemonic than the presence of Nambudiris and the Portuguese in Kerala.

Personally, I would think twice before trying to "preserve" a bloodline from ancestors who would be disgusted by the color of your skin.

If itís blood from a lighter skinned ethnicity, Indians LOVE it. My own extended family is an example of it. My aunts hated that their son had a child with a black woman. They hid the kid away from us for 4 years! But having a kid with a white woman was okay for them. The internalized racism is unreal .

Thomas48
11-29-2018, 09:23 PM
I don’t agree with it but I respect your opinion. the reason the namboothiri community in Kerala is so small is because of their strict endogamy(1-2%). Only the oldest son was allowed to marry a namboothiri woman so their numbers dwindled. Youngest ones had sambandhams with Nairs. Knanaya population is even smaller than that, so that’s going to hurt them, that’s all I’m saying. At least the excommunication has to stop.

I’ve seen some Knanaya weddings on YouTube. Chantham Charthal looks fun lol and the madhuram one.. I forgot the name of it :)

I agree, excommunication does nothing for a community. The sweet giving ceremony is known as Ichapadu Kodukal, it’s found during both the brides and grooms beautification ceremony the night before the wedding. Essentially rituals and prayers are said, ancient Knanaya songs are sung, and the bride/groom is fed a sweet dish called venpachor from their maternal/paternal uncles. The brides ceremony is called Mylanchi Ideel, Knanaya have this ancient Judeo-Christian belief that because the original woman Eve walked with her feet to the tree of knowledge and plucked the forbidden fruit with her palms, Knanaya brides must be smeared with Mylanchi on their palms and feet to purify them of the original sin. These ceremonies for men and woman are both beautification and purification rituals, truly ancient.

Kart
11-29-2018, 09:47 PM
I agree, excommunication does nothing for a community. The sweet giving ceremony is known as Ichapadu Kodukal, itís found during both the brides and grooms beautification ceremony the night before the wedding. Essentially rituals and prayers are said, ancient Knanaya songs are sung, and the bride/groom is fed a sweet dish called venpachor from their maternal/paternal uncles. The brides ceremony is called Mylanchi Ideel, Knanaya have this ancient Judeo-Christian belief that because the original woman Eve walked with her feet to the tree of knowledge and plucked the forbidden fruit with her palms, Knanaya brides must be smeared with Mylanchi on their palms and feet to purify them of the original sin. These ceremonies for men and woman are both beautification and purification rituals, truly ancient.

I think you guys are the only christians that wear henna in Kerala. When I was little, I took a henna cone to school to share with my friends. My martho friend said it's against her religion. I was very sad :/

Mandoos
11-29-2018, 10:44 PM
Sorry for derailing, but it seems like we have quite a few users from Pathanamthitta. What part are y'all from? My family is from the southeastern region of the district (Angadickal), religious affiliations were a mix of orthodox and marthoma.

Kart
11-29-2018, 10:49 PM
Sorry for derailing, but it seems like we have quite a few users from Pathanamthitta. What part are y'all from? My family is from the southeastern region of the district closer to TN (Angadickal), religious affiliations were a mix of orthodox and marthoma.

Mallappally. Border of Kottayam and Pathanamthitta. Lots of Mar Thoma, Vishwakarma and Nair people there.

26284729292
11-29-2018, 11:25 PM
just a passing thought....higher ne europe need not make you fair!...never mix genes and looks- The highest NE euro in India is the haryanvi Jats, and they are a light tanned brown rather than fair like a kashmiri/ punjabi khatri....

It's more complicated than this, though you're not wrong. Some involved factors are BMAC percentage, steppe, and AASI percentage. Many Haryana Jatts are actually light skinned, but live in a harsh climate and are exposed to a lot of sun. Their melanin is different than many more AASI shifted indians. The tanning is an environmental factor.

Khatris and kashmiris can be very varied too though. They have a unique combo of those 4 ingredients. I have khatri friends who look like south indian middle castes (based on stereotype) and who look persian/very foreign with very light skin, colored eyes, features, etc. For indians who have steppe, AASI, iran_N, and BMAC, you'll see a variety of looks. However, not all groups in India have all these components and some have them in very small quantities. For example, in kerala, as this is pertinent, if you pull a low caste person with high AASI and minor iran_N, their looks are confined to expression of their genes, which don't really carry anything "exotic/NI shifted" so their phenotypes will be confined within this spectrum. On the other hand, if you pull some groups in the south, like nairs, knanaya, SI brahmins, etc., their BMAC/Steppe may differentially be expressed (depending on chance) resulting in a broader spectrum of what the community can look like. It's the reason that an iyer/nair/etc. can look like a kashmiri pandit, but iyers as a subgroup look nothing like kashmiri pandits. There's mild overlap due to some shared ancestral components, but the discrepancies in overall composition result in the communities (larger sample sizes) looking quite different. It's the reason that people can't really place me personally, and I have a reddish undertone to my skin, but I have a few relatives who look near tribal.

Rustyshakelford
11-29-2018, 11:31 PM
A quote from Mar Ephrem, whom "syrian" Christians seem to adore:



the "missionary" evangelization of Kerala by the eastern/syrian churches was probably no less hegemonic than the presence of Nambudiris and the Portuguese in Kerala.

Personally, I would think twice before trying to "preserve" a bloodline from ancestors who would be disgusted by the color of your skin.

light versus dark is a common literary trope used to represent good versus evil or divine versus the profane, etc. I fail to see this as an allusion to indian peoples skin tone.
The church of the east was also rather cosmopolitan and had a diverse composition of ethnic groups. They were the ones that spread Christianity throughout the non-roman world, and had in its ranks many disparate groups, including ethnic Assyrians, Arabs, Mongols, Malayalees, etc. At one point in history the Patriarch of the church was an ethnic Mongol. There was also a presence on the Arabian peninsula attested to by the fact that a relative of the Prophet Muhammad, Waraka ibn Nawfal was a Nestorian priest. Nestorian crosses and motifs have been excavated in far off places like China and Sri Lanka too, which attests to an ancient presence in these parts.
By the way The church of the Easts influence on Kerala was far from hegemonic, if anything it was apathetic and borderline neglectful. Their authority consisted primarily of sending a bishop from Syria once in a blue moon but besides this rare event the Kerala church was mostly governed locally by a priestly family from kurivilangadu.
By your line of thinking all Indian Christians and Muslims are the product of some hegemonic intrusion by outsiders which is historically not true.

Mandoos
11-29-2018, 11:41 PM
I'm not sure if we even have adequate sampling from haryanvis much less most Indian ethnic groups with these varied components to come to any sort of conclusion. I'm married to one and he is pale while his brother has a proper Indian brown skin tone. Both have never touched daylight properly having lived in Delhi their whole lives.

26284729292
11-29-2018, 11:46 PM
I'm not sure if we even have adequate sampling from haryanvis much less most Indian ethnic groups with these varied components to come to any sort of conclusion. I'm married to one and he is pale while his brother has a proper Indian brown skin tone. Both have never touched daylight properly having lived in Delhi their whole lives.

Care to explain this?

Mandoos
11-30-2018, 12:04 AM
light versus dark is a common literary trope used to represent good versus evil or divine versus the profane, etc. I fail to see this as an allusion to indian peoples skin tone.
The church of the east was also rather cosmopolitan and had a diverse composition of ethnic groups. They were the ones that spread Christianity throughout the non-roman world, and had in its ranks many disparate groups, including ethnic Assyrians, Arabs, Mongols, Malayalees, etc. At one point in history the Patriarch of the church was an ethnic Mongol. There was also a presence on the Arabian peninsula attested to by the fact that a relative of the Prophet Muhammad, Waraka ibn Nawfal was a Nestorian priest. Nestorian crosses and motifs have been excavated in far off places like China and Sri Lanka too, which attests to an ancient presence in these parts.
By the way The church of the Easts influence on Kerala was far from hegemonic, if anything it was apathetic and borderline neglectful. Their authority consisted primarily of sending a bishop from Syria once in a blue moon but besides this rare event the Kerala church was mostly governed locally by a priestly family from kurivilangadu.
By your line of thinking all Indian Christians and Muslims are the product of some hegemonic intrusion by outsiders which is historically not true.

I have not really seen this sort of imagery used to describe any other region he spoke about. It may not be racist but you can't deny there is some sort of ethnocentric undertone that undermines the exaggerated reverence of "syrian/syriac/aramean" religious culture among syrian christians. Even among the Jews of Cochin there was a separate community for the "black jews", aka native Malayali converts to Judaism. West Asian/Middle Eastern religion and culture in general is notoriously ethnocentric. Otherwise, you wouldn't have so many Knanaya "researchers" posting in this thread to begin with lol.

I do believe nestorian/syrian missionaries did have genuine efforts to spread their beliefs, but what resulted within the communities and the resultant Indian hierarchies was hegemonic. So many strifes, divisions, and disassociations with Hinduism or native beliefs. There were few efforts by syrian Christian communities to assimilate dalits (obviously there are exceptions like St. Chavara), as most of their philosophy was centered around preserving their religious identity which contradicts the efforts of their converters. Abrahamic religions, in my opinion, never really molded synergistically with a caste-riddled Indian culture even in Kerala. I feel much of the "harmony" advertised within the region is biased.

Mandoos
11-30-2018, 12:28 AM
I'm not sure if we even have adequate sampling from haryanvis much less most Indian ethnic groups with these varied components to come to any sort of conclusion. I'm married to one and he is pale while his brother has a proper Indian brown skin tone. Both have never touched daylight properly having lived in Delhi their whole lives.

Care to explain this?

The smog bruh.

Rustyshakelford
11-30-2018, 03:15 AM
I have not really seen this sort of imagery used to describe any other region he spoke about. It may not be racist but you can't deny there is some sort of ethnocentric undertone that undermines the exaggerated reverence of "syrian/syriac/aramean" religious culture among syrian christians. Even among the Jews of Cochin there was a separate community for the "black jews", aka native Malayali converts to Judaism. West Asian/Middle Eastern religion and culture in general is notoriously ethnocentric. Otherwise, you wouldn't have so many Knanaya "researchers" posting in this thread to begin with lol.

I do believe nestorian/syrian missionaries did have genuine efforts to spread their beliefs, but what resulted within the communities and the resultant Indian hierarchies was hegemonic. So many strifes, divisions, and disassociations with Hinduism or native beliefs. There were few efforts by syrian Christian communities to assimilate dalits (obviously there are exceptions like St. Chavara), as most of their philosophy was centered around preserving their religious identity which contradicts the efforts of their converters. Abrahamic religions, in my opinion, never really molded synergistically with a caste-riddled Indian culture even in Kerala. I feel much of the "harmony" advertised within the region is biased.

lol im not a "researcher" im here for the same reasons you or any other user is. I don't see how a light/dark metaphor can be construed as colorism or racial undertones. I would admit that modern day ME christians like assyrians and copts are somewhat nationalistic but this is understandable given their history of persecution. I think this whole discussion was triggered by thomas's claim that knanaya endogamy is born of a desire to preserve "Middle eastern lineage". i would disagree with that, i dont think its a conscious attempt to preserve ME ancestry at all. if this were the case then marrying a full blown ethnic syrian christian from syria/iraq would be an acceptable practice, but its not, in fact the results would be the exact same as marrying from any other non-knanaya group.

in terms of the hegemonic influence of Abrahamic faiths, i would argue that Christianity in Kerala has traditionally shown a remarkable degree of syncretism with the broader Hindu culture and religion. Prior to European contact the churches resembled Hindu temples and lots of broad Hindu/like social customs were observed. Even the knanaya wedding rituals that Thomas described are probably just old Dravidian customs that have been given a biblical spin. The root of the faith may be from abroad but its had very ancient presence in Kerala and has thus developed its own indigenous characteristics in line with the cultural/social context of kerala, this includes both the good and the bad(caste).

whatever attempts made to dissociate from hinduism is a more recent phenomena and is a product of colonial influence due to contact with the Portuguese. Speaking of which, what would be your evaluation of them? considering that at one end they deepened the division between Christianity and Hinduism while at the same time tried to (unsucessfully) make the church more open to lower caste converts.

Thomas48
11-30-2018, 03:28 AM
lol im not a "researcher" im here for the same reasons you or any other user is. I don't see how a light/dark metaphor can be construed as colorism or racial undertones. I would admit that modern day ME christians like assyrians and copts are somewhat nationalistic but this is understandable given their history of persecution. I think this whole discussion was triggered by thomas's claim that knanaya endogamy is born of a desire to preserve "Middle eastern lineage". i would disagree with that, i dont think its a conscious attempt to preserve ME ancestry at all. if this were the case then marrying a full blown ethnic syrian christian from syria/iraq would be an acceptable practice, but its not, in fact the results would be the exact same as marrying from any non-knanaya group.


That was not my intent with that statement. I should have chosen better words, but when Knanaya marry endogamously it is simply to maintain their ethnic group, which clearly only formed after their arrival to India. So this bloodline can only be called Knanaya not Middle Eastern or Indian but a mix of both. When the community chose to become endogamous is something that is unknown but it is clearly after they intermixed with Indians and hence requires more anthropological study. Sadly because the Portuguese burned all historical and ecclesial records of the Syrian Christians, this is something that we have to make educated guesses at, however studying the genetics of the community may help to bring more clarity to the historical questions left unanswered. I do however agree that the rituals of the community are an inculturation, as I stated Knanaya culture is an amalgamate of Hindu, Jewish, and Syriac Christian traditions, representing the centuries the community has been a minority in India. For example some Knanaya folk songs mention “the 14 worlds”, a clear Hindu concept. The Mylanchi ceremony and the songs that accompany it describe purifying the bride of her original sin, in Christianity original sin is not something that is purified but is something that all Christians must carry or are cleansed through baptism, meaning that Mylanchi is perhaps an ancient Judeo-Christian concept that predates the dogma of the Christian Churches. Again just a few examples of the ancient inculturation seen in the Knanaya community.

vishankar
11-30-2018, 05:03 AM
You're contradicting yourself with that line. Caste/community based marriage is the Indian equivalent of racism. What's the point of keeping the "ancient blood line" ?

Nairs also like to brag about their Brahmin sambandhams, which I think was a disgusting practice that exploited women.



Well at least your family got some outside blood coming in, which is a good thing! That excommunication is going to come bite them in the ass in the future when they run out of people to marry.

Basically nairs practiced a form of eugenics by way of sambandham,,,you are right , bragging about brahmin intermarriage is downing our self respect...even the thiyyas of kannur and thalassery ( some families) had connubial relations with Britishers!...the White Thiyya

Kart
11-30-2018, 06:24 AM
Basically nairs practiced a form of eugenics by way of sambandham,,,you are right , bragging about brahmin intermarriage is downing our self respect...even the thiyyas of kannur and thalassery ( some families) had connubial relations with Britishers!...the White Thiyya

I wasnít targeting you lol some people brag about it. Is that why actress Malavika Wales has that last name. I know for sure sheís Thiyya because I saw her sisterís wedding on YouTube.

vishankar
11-30-2018, 02:29 PM
oh... i did not take it as target practice either:):)....Malavika wales is from thrissur right?...so no reason to think she has had Brit admixture...also her brother has married a menon... so is she really an ezhava/thiyya?

bmoney
12-01-2018, 12:25 AM
Kerala brahmin harappa results

1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Interesting how this Brahmin has lower NE Euro compared to Nairs with no Brahmin admix, although Med is high. Their South Indian % is also not significantly lower suggesting that they are also Dravidian (probably middle caste) admixed

SW Asian is low here

The high Baloch shifts this sample towards Gujarat

Yeah checked the oracle and the sample can be represented as 80-90% Gujarati in the oracle

bmoney
12-01-2018, 12:40 AM
They don’t get Cochin Jew at all. The rest of us got it right?

I don’t get Cochin Jew or Kerala Brahmin in my top 20

Here’s my single oracle to answer your earlier question

27371

bmoney
12-01-2018, 12:53 AM
Maybe a little off-topic, but my good friend and roommate from college (Pillay) was born in New York, but his parents are from India. His dad is from Kerala and his mother's last name is Lawrence (I think from northern India?). Anyway, my friend only likes white girls, and there is not much Indian about him lol.

Even when I visit his parents, his dad is always like, "Neal, how the f&*k are ya? Want a beer?", in an Indian accent. Then, he hands me a Warsteiner lol. My friend's parents actually immigrated to South Africa before coming to the US, and were activists there.

RE Lawrence Probably South Indian Christian or Sri Lankan or Anglo Indian even

The vast majority of Christians in the west are from the South as North Indian Christians (unless Anglo Indian) are a lot less economically advantaged compared to South Indian and Sri Lankan Christians and as a result usually do not have the means to migrate

I’ve noticed that they tend to be less traditional here in the West as well

bmoney
12-01-2018, 01:01 AM
Another one
1 S-Indian 43.87
2 Baloch 36.52
3 Caucasian 9.33
4 NE-Euro 5.33
5 SE-Asian 1.58
6 NE-Asian 0.91
7 Beringian 0.77
8 American 0.75
9 SW-Asian 0.71
10 Papuan 0.23

Man this high Caucasian & SW Asian signal in Kerala is really bizarre, seems to affect all communities

Maybe this sample will have elevated Yemen Jew in a g25 nmonte

How Brahmin admixed is this sample? Seems to have as low South Indian as the Brahmins

Rustyshakelford
12-01-2018, 01:22 AM
welcome back bud

bmoney
12-01-2018, 01:23 AM
yup... that is bmoneys line of thinking....he is a nambiar and I am a Pillai,he has marginally more pontic steppe and lesser tribal and south asian agriculturist than me... in his words I am a "more admixed" nair!....but my gut feeling is it could happen the other way round too...certain travancore and cochin nairs may score higher steppe than the malabar nambiar( by virtue of brahmin admixture)....I was talking to a Jacobite colleague of mine, and he felt Knanayas were the most inbred of the Malayalis, hence their rathe r unique genetic make up

Not really, you focus too much on steppe here

Nambiarís never mixed with anyone south of Calicut until recently, otherwise you wouldnít be a Nambiar anymore (lose caste). So regardless of our genetic scores our lineages would be highly separated anyway

Yes our steppe/Khvalnysk scores are similar but thatís probably due to your Brahmin admix or preservation of proto-Nair steppe (my speculation) so itís artificial similarity like Tamil Brahmins for me

G25 has 25 data points, much more nuance. So based on that our checkfit shows that were actually quite far from each other on a whole genome perspective

I suspect Thiyyas and Ezhavas will also have this difference and northern Nairs will be closer to Bunts and Coorghis than to southern Nairs

bmoney
12-01-2018, 01:23 AM
welcome back bud

Thanks fam

MonkeyDLuffy
12-01-2018, 01:41 AM
Thanks fam

Time to do some nmonte.

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:14 AM
Time to do some nmonte.

Love me some nmonte

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:17 AM
So how do they say jump? haha

Some Nambiars are Ambalavasis too right? In Travancore Ambalavasis come below Nairs.

They are separate communities

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:25 AM
Malayalis in particular are hell-bent on religious affiliation over race or ethnicity when it comes to marriage. Maybe it has to do with the influence of Abrahamic religions.

I have a Syrian Christian lady in my family from my mums generation. Both met via Indian army ties

Initially the relatives father was furious and wouldn’t recognise it but I don’t think that was due to caste or linguistic issues, rather it was religion related

She still laughs at our dialect, I remember her saying she had no idea what ‘thondan’ meant

My family now is well and truly mixed with many nationalities.

I’m married to a Sikh myself. I’d say Mallus of all religions, except Malabar Muslims maybe, are quite open to marriage outside the community.

Though we have no Thiyyas in the family for whatever reason to this day afaik

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:35 AM
You're contradicting yourself with that line. Caste/community based marriage is the Indian equivalent of racism. What's the point of keeping the "ancient blood line" ?

Nairs also like to brag about their Brahmin sambandhams, which I think was a disgusting practice that exploited women.



Well at least your family got some outside blood coming in, which is a good thing! That excommunication is going to come bite them in the ass in the future when they run out of people to marry.

Sambandham is distasteful to me personally but itís important to paint all of us with this brush.

Only certain regions practiced it, to north Malabar it is unheard of.

My results were explained as due to sambandham due to the notorioty of the practice

vishankar
12-01-2018, 03:42 AM
Not really, you focus too much on steppe here

Nambiar’s never mixed with anyone south of Calicut until recently, otherwise you wouldn’t be a Nambiar anymore (lose caste). So regardless of our genetic scores our lineages would be highly separated anyway

Yes our steppe/Khvalnysk scores are similar but that’s probably due to your Brahmin admix or preservation of proto-Nair steppe (my speculation) so it’s artificial similarity like Tamil Brahmins for me

G25 has 25 data points, much more nuance. So based on that our checkfit shows that were actually quite far from each other on a whole genome perspective

I suspect Thiyyas and Ezhavas will also have this difference and northern Nairs will be closer to Bunts and Coorghis than to southern Nairs



I think so....we need a few bunt /coorg samples here badly!...bunts will differ from coorgs too!

vishankar
12-01-2018, 03:47 AM
I have a Syrian Christian lady in my family from my mums generation. Both met via Indian army ties

Initially the relatives father was furious and wouldn’t recognise it but I don’t think that was due to caste or linguistic issues, rather it was religion related

She still laughs at our dialect, I remember her saying she had no idea what ‘thondan’ meant

My family now is well and truly mixed with many nationalities.

I’m married to a Sikh myself. I’d say Mallus of all religions, except Malabar Muslims maybe, are quite open to marriage outside the community.

Though we have no Thiyyas in the family for whatever reason to this day afaik


I think the NRI LOT HERE are very much admixed....:):)...it is a great development!...unfortunately in kannur/payyanur proper intermarriage is frowned upon!I remember my wife's uncle( nambiar) exulting at the break up of his nephew with a christian girl...he said- " never in our family"....those who married out of caste stay in the metropoloitan cities- mumbai, chennai, delhi etc

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:49 AM
That was not my intent with that statement. I should have chosen better words, but when Knanaya marry endogamously it is simply to maintain their ethnic group, which clearly only formed after their arrival to India. So this bloodline can only be called Knanaya not Middle Eastern or Indian but a mix of both. When the community chose to become endogamous is something that is unknown but it is clearly after they intermixed with Indians and hence requires more anthropological study. Sadly because the Portuguese burned all historical and ecclesial records of the Syrian Christians, this is something that we have to make educated guesses at, however studying the genetics of the community may help to bring more clarity to the historical questions left unanswered. I do however agree that the rituals of the community are an inculturation, as I stated Knanaya culture is an amalgamate of Hindu, Jewish, and Syriac Christian traditions, representing the centuries the community has been a minority in India. For example some Knanaya folk songs mention “the 14 worlds”, a clear Hindu concept. The Mylanchi ceremony and the songs that accompany it describe purifying the bride of her original sin, in Christianity original sin is not something that is purified but is something that all Christians must carry or are cleansed through baptism, meaning that Mylanchi is perhaps an ancient Judeo-Christian concept that predates the dogma of the Christian Churches. Again just a few examples of the ancient inculturation seen in the Knanaya community.

It is undeniable that the Knanaya are Middle Eastern admixed compared to surrounding pops (except some Syrian Christians who also seem to be admixed)

I see nothing wrong with researching origin through genetic signatures, especially when we validated Thomas48s theory here on this thread

On a side note it’s been great learning about the culture on this thread

vishankar
12-01-2018, 03:51 AM
I have a Syrian Christian lady in my family from my mums generation. Both met via Indian army ties

Initially the relatives father was furious and wouldn’t recognise it but I don’t think that was due to caste or linguistic issues, rather it was religion related

She still laughs at our dialect, I remember her saying she had no idea what ‘thondan’ meant

My family now is well and truly mixed with many nationalities.

I’m married to a Sikh myself. I’d say Mallus of all religions, except Malabar Muslims maybe, are quite open to marriage outside the community.

Though we have no Thiyyas in the family for whatever reason to this day afaik

ha! ha!... even i laughed at "thondan" first!in the medieval times there were thiyya - nambiar marriages- unniyarcha from the vadukkan pattukal? some say even thacholi othenan?

bmoney
12-01-2018, 03:57 AM
ha! ha!... even i laughed at "thondan" first!in the medieval times there were thiyya - nambiar marriages- unniyarcha from the vadukkan pattukal? some say even thacholi othenan?

I don’t know enough about that

Mandoos
12-01-2018, 04:06 AM
I have a Syrian Christian lady in my family from my mums generation. Both met via Indian army ties

Initially the relatives father was furious and wouldn’t recognise it but I don’t think that was due to caste or linguistic issues, rather it was religion related

She still laughs at our dialect, I remember her saying she had no idea what ‘thondan’ meant

My family now is well and truly mixed with many nationalities.

I’m married to a Sikh myself. I’d say Mallus of all religions, except Malabar Muslims maybe, are quite open to marriage outside the community.

Though we have no Thiyyas in the family for whatever reason to this day afaik

I guess it's different for the rather conservative Christians that dominate the orthodox, catholic and knanaya communities. My family had no qualms when my cousins married hispanics, whites and the like who were nominally Christian. They wouldn't recognize my marriage (much less our relationship; never wanted to meet or talk to him) to a non-Christian Indian despite the cultures being a lot more similar. His Hindu parents were open and supportive. They weren't even NRIs like my parents who lived out of the country for 20 years.

Religion among Hindus is a lot less dogmatic/fundamentalistic and more philosophical, hence more accepting despite caste issues. Caste is a far more dismissible and less controversial subject in India nowadays than religion.

Thomas48
12-01-2018, 07:13 AM
Lmao Thomas48 was right all along, also a better fit for Rusty in this model and a slightly better one for me:

https://i.imgur.com/xzHo2yz.png

Does this mean that the Knanaya are a 66% genome match to Cochin Jews? Iím still learning the basics of nMonte.

bmoney
12-01-2018, 07:29 AM
Does this mean that the Knanaya are a 66% genome match to Cochin Jews? I’m still learning the basics of nMonte.

They model as it. It could be due to shared ancestry or artificial similarity

Kart
12-01-2018, 09:24 AM
They model as it. It could be due to shared ancestry or artificial similarity

Do me and rusty 👀

Also I think youíre the only one who got ďkarnataka BrahminĒ..

we missed you by the way :)

BMG
12-01-2018, 02:34 PM
Man this high Caucasian & SW Asian signal in Kerala is really bizarre, seems to affect all communities

Maybe this sample will have elevated Yemen Jew in a g25 nmonte

How Brahmin admixed is this sample? Seems to have as low South Indian as the Brahmins
I don't know exactly . But they were very powerful families in Cochin and Valluvanad kingdoms of bygone era like the mannadiar and nedungadi families . They considered themselves on par with Brahmins and had marital alliances with them . Few of such families even wore the thread and was considered kshatriya . Due to that they also had relations with Cochin and Valluvanad Kings .

BMG
12-01-2018, 02:44 PM
Not really, you focus too much on steppe here

Nambiarís never mixed with anyone south of Calicut until recently, otherwise you wouldnít be a Nambiar anymore (lose caste). So regardless of our genetic scores our lineages would be highly separated anyway

Yes our steppe/Khvalnysk scores are similar but thatís probably due to your Brahmin admix or preservation of proto-Nair steppe (my speculation) so itís artificial similarity like Tamil Brahmins for me

G25 has 25 data points, much more nuance. So based on that our checkfit shows that were actually quite far from each other on a whole genome perspective

I suspect Thiyyas and Ezhavas will also have this difference and northern Nairs will be closer to Bunts and Coorghis than to southern Nairs
I expect both bunts and coorgis to be more South Indian shifted than nairs . My guess is based on a half bunt half konkani christians result . Anyway we will have a full bunt sample soon .

Kart
12-01-2018, 03:17 PM
I expect both bunts and coorgis to be more South Indian shifted than nairs . My guess is based on a half bunt half konkani christians result . Anyway we will have a full bunt sample soon .

I think they would have the same ratio. Between 45-50% SI like the Nairs. :/

Kart
12-02-2018, 03:14 AM
oh... i did not take it as target practice either:):)....Malavika wales is from thrissur right?...so no reason to think she has had Brit admixture...also her brother has married a menon... so is she really an ezhava/thiyya?

Yeah she's from Thrissur..so she's definitely not a Thiyya lol I guess she's a Nair.

vishankar
12-02-2018, 03:56 AM
Yeah she's from Thrissur..so she's definitely not a Thiyya lol I guess she's a Nair.

I am not very sure about her....ezhava /nair/ some other caste....its not easy to find out one's caste in kerala these days!

bmoney
12-02-2018, 04:44 AM
Do me and rusty ��

Also I think you’re the only one who got “karnataka Brahmin”..

we missed you by the way :)

Thanks!

I’ll do it tonight for all the Mallu samples we have

BMG please get your g25 done

bmoney
12-03-2018, 02:18 AM
Do me and rusty ��

Also I think you’re the only one who got “karnataka Brahmin”..

we missed you by the way :)

You need to do Lukasz K36 report and get co-ordinates to use the Cochin Jew reference from Lukasz' custom calc runner

I think i've already run you using Yemen Jew a few pages back which is another proxy for Middle-Eastern ancestry

Rustyshakelford
12-03-2018, 03:41 AM
They model as it. It could be due to shared ancestry or artificial similarity

We're both about equally distant to them in the checkfits, with me a being a bit closer:

27458

wouldn't this indicate artificial affinity rather than shared ancestry?

bmoney
12-03-2018, 03:51 AM
We're both about equally distant to them in the checkfits, with me a being a bit closer:

27458

wouldn't this indicate artificial affinity rather than shared ancestry?

Cochin Jews ME ancestry pulls them towards certain North Indians due to their lower AASI/South Indian, however the model of part Cochin Jew part Velama (representing low steppe Tamilakam Dravidian elites) for the Knanaya could still be valid if literature or history supports it.

Or a model of inputs from a similar Middle-Eastern population x being a donor to both communities, which makes the Knanaya majority Cochin Jew like artificially