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vishankar
02-17-2019, 05:11 PM
hi... I am posting the report I got from Lukacs Analysis-( quite long back)
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vishankar
02-17-2019, 05:14 PM
28969

Kart
02-18-2019, 05:45 AM
it was pillai lady 2 's harappa which caught my attention, I have never seen this high NE euro in any mallu kits!....also all these 4 pillais have low sw asian, whereas Kart seems to have an elevated sw asian value...all of them also appear to be more south indian influenced ( around 50%) at least, even i have a low sw asian value-.74%.
its almost like a ASI+ STEPPE admixture with possibly a very minimal IVC component ,when the surname is pillai!


Are you sure these are Malayali Pillai’s? Some Upper Caste Tamils also have the surname Pillai.

vishankar
02-18-2019, 05:46 PM
Are you sure these are Malayali Pillai’s? Some Upper Caste Tamils also have the surname Pillai.

Hi... not sure yaar!, but names like sharada ( sorry I spilt it) ,Yashoda are more likely to be nairs right?

parasar
02-18-2019, 06:01 PM
...
R1b is extremely rare in India I presume, from my understanding it is a Western European Haplogroup!

Not R1b-Z2103. It is more of a Yamna, Afanasevo line.

vishankar
02-22-2019, 03:35 PM
A word of appreciation for parasar ,he is knowledgeable and no comments which rub anyone the wrong way(or right way):) either!....personally happy to see non mallus like him -monkeyLduffy,aaronbee,jatt1 active on this thread!

vishankar
02-22-2019, 03:39 PM
I am posting a PDF ...7 karnataka 29017populations, it is a study on interleukins , but look at the dendogram on figure 3, it will give us an idea about Bunts and possibly where they are positioned genetically...!

aaronbee2010
02-22-2019, 03:43 PM
A word of appreciation for parasar ,he is knowledgeable and no comments which rub anyone the wrong way(or right way):) either!....personally happy to see non mallus like him -monkeyLduffy,aaronbee,jatt1 active on this thread!

I do my best, although I suck with anything non Y-DNA related xD

vishankar
02-22-2019, 04:34 PM
this img is from a study on multiple sclerosis patients from a medical college in Mangalore( where I worked earlier),would like the members to opine on the genetic distances-29018

vishankar
02-22-2019, 04:37 PM
I feel the above image should give a clue where Bunts stand vis- a vis kerala( north kerala ) populations,since we dont have any bunt kits presently to analyse....I will post the full article too here...29019

BMG
02-23-2019, 12:27 AM
Some common mtdna among Syrian Christian's with HVR1 sequences
R5a2b4 - 16266T, 16304C, 16309G, 16325C, 16356C
M2a1c - 16176T , 16223T ,16270T, 16274A, 16319A, 16352C
M5a1 - 16129A, 16291T
M5a - 16129A , 16223T
M3 - 16126C, 16185T, 16223T
M3d1 - 16126C, 16223T, 16344T
R30a - 16172C, 16278T
M6a - 16223T, 16231C, 16311C, 16362C
M35a - 16176T, 16223T
M44a - 16183C, 16189C, 16223T, 16301T
Continued
U1a1c4 - 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16249C
M33a2 -16169T, 16172C, 16223T
Less common mtdna sequences
U2b1 - 16051G, 16168T, 16249C
U7- 16309G , 16318T
R6b - 16129A, 16179T, 16227G, 16245T, 16266T, 16278T, 16362C
HV14a - 16304C, 16311C
H20 -16129A, 16218T, 16309G
R6 - 16129A, 16172C, 16234T, 16266T, 16274A, 16309G, 16362C
HV2a2 - 16217C, 16325C
U2a1a - 16051G, 16154C, 16206C, 16230G, 16311C

vishankar
02-23-2019, 04:02 AM
Continued
U1a1c4 - 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16249C
M33a2 -16169T, 16172C, 16223T
Less common mtdna sequences
U2b1 - 16051G, 16168T, 16249C
U7- 16309G , 16318T
R6b - 16129A, 16179T, 16227G, 16245T, 16266T, 16278T, 16362C
HV14a - 16304C, 16311C
H20 -16129A, 16218T, 16309G
R6 - 16129A, 16172C, 16234T, 16266T, 16274A, 16309G, 16362C
HV2a2 - 16217C, 16325C
U2a1a - 16051G, 16154C, 16206C, 16230G, 16311C

looks like I will be U1a1c4!

Thomas48
02-23-2019, 10:09 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to share some news I heard. National Geographic is running a genetic study in Kerala and they’ve chosen two groups to study the Knanaya and the Namboodiri Brahmins. It’s suppsoedly a very expensive project and the results will be shared in 2021.

Thomas48
02-23-2019, 10:10 PM
Edit: Double Post

vishankar
02-25-2019, 04:32 PM
Found some more Kerala Hindu Kits:

Nair (confirmed based on surname):

S-Indian 48.07
Baloch 36.65
Caucasian 6.39
NE-Euro 4.87
SE-Asian -
Siberian 0.26
NE-Asian 1.98
Papuan 0.77
American 0.58
Beringian -
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 0.34
San 0.08
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Nair (assuming shes nair based on how she scores):

S-Indian 47.85
Baloch 36.42
Caucasian 5.90
NE-Euro 5.25
SE-Asian -
Siberian 1.49
NE-Asian 0.58
Papuan 0.79
American 0.71
Beringian 0.10
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 0.91
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Panicker (could be Nair, Ezhava, or Syrian Christian):

S-Indian 56.89
Baloch 34.20
Caucasian 2.20
NE-Euro -
SE-Asian 1.23
Siberian 0.50
NE-Asian 1.08
Papuan 1.20
American -
Beringian 0.86
Mediterranean 0.73
SW-Asian 1.12
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -


Heres two ambiguouse ones I'm assuming are mallu hindu based on their names but i'm unsure which community/caste:


S-Indian 55.87
Baloch 34.90
Caucasian 2.62
NE-Euro -
SE-Asian 1.74
Siberian 1.11
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.07
American 0.56
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.21
SW-Asian 2.51
San -
E-African 0.38
Pygmy -
W-African -

S-Indian 55.37
Baloch 30.61
Caucasian 6.31
NE-Euro 0.13
SE-Asian 1.30
Siberian 0.10
NE-Asian 1.40
Papuan 0.95
American 0.52
Beringian 0.55
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.18
San 0.41
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African 0.16


The first two Nair kits score somewhat similar to bmoney but the oracles are different.

Hi Rusty....the panicker is likely to be ezhava,not syrian or nair...look at the high ASI and nil NE euro .

vishankar
03-03-2019, 09:12 AM
the following are from Randwulf's k36moderns-in descending order-my wife's aunt,my father in law,wife and lastly a thiyya lady-

P_Kookal:

distance%: 0.26

Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 20.74
Gujarati 19.65
Balochi 11.28
Kamboj 8.32
Iyer 7.59
Pulliyar 5.74
Kohistani 5.67
Chamar 5.35
Yadava 4.95
Velamas 3.69
Sakilli 3.25
Punjabi_Lahore 2.02
Gujar 0.86
Pashtun 0.82
Pallan 0.07

R_Beringeth:

distance%: 0.68

Gujar 30.21
Hakkipikki 14.85
Gujarati 13.63
Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 11.39
Balochi 8.65
Brahui 5.8
Bengali_Bangladesh 5.33
Piramalai 5.06
Relli 2.63
Kamboj 1.42
Ju_hoan_North 0.55
Pallan 0.31
Kalash 0.17

R_Edachery:

distance%: 0.6

Chamar 33.26
Gujar 24.74
Yadava 11.22
Khatri 10.15
Gujarati 8.88
Balochi 6.23
Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 3.72
Gupta 1.19
Ju_hoan_North 0.61

S_Nalappil:

distance%: 0.49

Gujarati 30.39
Kadar 25.18
Sindhi 17.21
Brahui 8.44
Madiga 5.71
Bengali_Bangladesh 5.01
Brahmin_Gujarat 2.38
Yusufzai 2.22
Pallan 1.2
Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 0.99
Iyer 0.74
Pulliyar 0.53

vishankar
03-03-2019, 09:13 AM
This is mine-

distance%: 0.51

Punjabi_Lahore 27.64
Gujarati 18.58
Velamas 9.65
Kadar 7.62
Makrani 6.9
Maratha 5.79
Brahmin_Gujarat 4.69
Tharu 4.6
Khatri 4.3
Brahui 3.16
Kol 3.06
Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 2.38
Pallan 1.05
Chamar 0.56

vishankar
03-03-2019, 09:16 AM
Randwulf is quick to respond, and you have to provide him your G25 coordinates-the only moot point is individuals/?populations like punjabi-lahore,gujarati are pretty vague with respect to the actual community they belong to !

vishankar
03-03-2019, 09:24 AM
Davidski created a south asian PCA plot -here it is29125


kalashviv- yours truly!

kookal, edachery ,beringeth(actually it should be peringeth!)...my wife's aunt(her uncle's wife),wife and my pa-in law. Nalappil( actually valappil) -Thiyya lady from Payyanur.

vishankar
03-03-2019, 09:27 AM
bmoneys' theory about a lack of genetic unity among nairs may be true- I stand away from the three north malabar-nair/nambiar samples as well as the thiyya sample.
my wife and her father cluster together,which is expected,as well as kookal which is in an unrelated tharavad.

Rustyshakelford
03-05-2019, 05:27 PM
I was going through my match list on FTDNA today and noticed a couple interesting Y-DNA haplogroups: N-CTS7227 and O-CTS4658. Anyone know how common these east asian haplogroups are among us?

BMG
03-05-2019, 06:10 PM
I was going through my match list on FTDNA today and noticed a couple interesting Y-DNA haplogroups: N-CTS7227 and O-CTS4658. Anyone know how common these east asian haplogroups are among us?
The N-CTS7227 guys are actually H wrongly assigned by ftdna . There is one syrian christian family from kollam who have their ydna as O1 which is more a taiwanese haplogroup .This O-CTS4658 seems to be a different guy as it is a different subclade which is common among tibeto burmans . Need to confirm if this guy is paternally syrian christian .

Rustyshakelford
03-05-2019, 06:37 PM
The N-CTS7227 guys are actually H wrongly assigned by ftdna . There is one syrian christian family from kollam who have their ydna as O1 which is more a taiwanese haplogroup .This O-CTS4658 seems to be a different guy as it is a different subclade which is common among tibeto burmans . Need to confirm if this guy is paternally syrian christian .

The O-CTS4658 guy is Kna, he shows up as a close match and I recognize the family name. Is it possible the O is wrongly assigned Q? I have a number of Q matches on gedmatch.

vishankar
03-05-2019, 06:51 PM
Hi...received my full mt dna results- U1A1C1D...

vishankar
03-05-2019, 06:55 PM
I think this is a very common mt dna haplogroup in south kerala, and a lot of syrian christian friends here have it....for eg Mandoos!

Mandoos
03-06-2019, 06:08 AM
Hi...received my full mt dna results- U1A1C1D...

Spot on..belated welcome to the club B)

BMG
03-06-2019, 03:05 PM
The O-CTS4658 guy is Kna, he shows up as a close match and I recognize the family name. Is it possible the O is wrongly assigned Q? I have a number of Q matches on gedmatch.
You can check that if you have the list of snp calls of the person . If he is positive for upstream snps then the assignment is right .
I have checked the snp calls of the N guy .He is negative for the snps defining N but was positive for H . Actually I think he was H-M82+ .

Thomas48
03-08-2019, 01:12 AM
The N-CTS7227 guys are actually H wrongly assigned by ftdna . There is one syrian christian family from kollam who have their ydna as O1 which is more a taiwanese haplogroup .This O-CTS4658 seems to be a different guy as it is a different subclade which is common among tibeto burmans . Need to confirm if this guy is paternally syrian christian .

That's very interesting. Kollam supposedly had regularly traders from East Asia, particularly China. This was recorded by numerous travelers, distinctly scholars from the Islamic Empires in the 13th century. From what I've heard our older ports like Muziris were also regularly visited by the Chinese in ancient times, probably why today we still use the Chinese fishing net. Supposedly our Kerala roof architecture is also from an East Asian style which leads me to question how strong of a presence East Asians had in historical Malabar.

Kart
03-08-2019, 01:36 PM
I'm back from India. Glad to see we have a Mappilla Muslim member now :)

If I post some pics from my vacation, would it violate forum rules? :D

Rustyshakelford
03-08-2019, 02:32 PM
I'm back from India. Glad to see we have a Mappilla Muslim member now :)

If I post some pics from my vacation, would it violate forum rules? :D

Welcome back fam. Nah I think it’s fine as long as no one try’s to racially classifying them

Kart
03-08-2019, 03:34 PM
Welcome back fam. Nah I think it’s fine as long as no one try’s to racially classifying them

haha.. I don't plan on posting my beautiful face :lol: just some photos of food and other things lol

Check out this album: https://imgur.com/a/YYDmzuQ

Kart
03-08-2019, 03:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKKq0QvCVy4

:D A short clip of my Kumarakom boat ride. Loved it!!!

Rustyshakelford
03-08-2019, 04:42 PM
haha.. I don't plan on posting my beautiful face :lol: just some photos of food and other things lol

Check out this album: https://imgur.com/a/YYDmzuQ

I’d kill for some kumbil appam right now

Kart
03-08-2019, 05:06 PM
I’d kill for some kumbil appam right now

it was chakka kumbilappam too :D

Jatt1
03-08-2019, 07:19 PM
What kind of fruit tree is that in there?

Kart
03-08-2019, 07:37 PM
What kind of fruit tree is that in there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syzygium_samarangense

called Chambakka in Malayalam

vishankar
03-09-2019, 09:13 AM
chambakka grows well down south i see, have a tree( many ) in fact at my in -laws home in [email protected] you should taste this fruit yaar!

vishankar
03-11-2019, 11:29 AM
hi...I am not sure whther this is the right forum to post this is nor not, but on gedmatch's MDLP K11 modern calculator I scored 2.40 percent, whereas on the eurogenes ANE-K7 i drew a blank!...I dont know if any of our friends here have had similar results...which calculator to believe?

vishankar
03-11-2019, 11:56 AM
I must also recommend this book- Early Indians -by Tony Joseph,his writing and ideas are easy on the senses!He talks about lactase persistence in the Indians who carry the mutation 13190T..similar to europeans inn the ability to digest milk.....I wonder if we Mallus ( any percentage) have this mutation?.....I say so because I am a great addict of Sambaram( all malayalis on this forum know about it I am sure)!!!....;)

Mandoos
03-11-2019, 07:21 PM
I must also recommend this book- Early Indians -by Tony Joseph,his writing and ideas are easy on the senses!He talks about lactase persistence in the Indians who carry the mutation 13190T..similar to europeans inn the ability to digest milk.....I wonder if we Mallus ( any percentage) have this mutation?.....I say so because I am a great addict of Sambaram( all malayalis on this forum know about it I am sure)!!!....;)

I don't think sambararam/mooru (as we call it) has as much lactose as milk since it's made from curd/yogurt.

pure milk isn't widely consumed in our cuisine as much as it is in north India. I'd imagine most Malayalis lack the mutation like me and Kart.

vishankar
03-12-2019, 02:48 PM
I don't think sambararam/mooru (as we call it) has as much lactose as milk since it's made from curd/yogurt.

pure milk isn't widely consumed in our cuisine as much as it is in north India. I'd imagine most Malayalis lack the mutation like me and Kart.

That's exactly what tony joseph writes....but how do you find out if you have the mutation or not?

BMG
03-12-2019, 03:53 PM
I don't think sambararam/mooru (as we call it) has as much lactose as milk since it's made from curd/yogurt.

pure milk isn't widely consumed in our cuisine as much as it is in north India. I'd imagine most Malayalis lack the mutation like me and Kart.
I had checked around 12 unrelated syrian Christian raw data . 9/12 are lactose tolerant ie they have at least one copy of the gene . I might be lactose intolerant but ftdna doesn't test snp .

Mandoos
03-12-2019, 05:46 PM
That's exactly what tony joseph writes....but how do you find out if you have the mutation or not?

Check if you have tested for rs4988235. The mutation is T/A.

BMG
03-12-2019, 06:20 PM
Check if you have tested for rs4988235. The mutation is T/A.

I think ftdna doesn't test this snp . At least back then they didn't .

vishankar
03-13-2019, 02:44 AM
perhaps that is why( lactose intolerance) we love kattan chayya and kattan kaapi...;)

Kart
03-13-2019, 05:59 PM
Milk doesn't bother me though. I can drink a glass of milk with no problem. Maybe there are other genes involved.

Censored
03-13-2019, 09:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKKq0QvCVy4

:D A short clip of my Kumarakom boat ride. Loved it!!!

Is that you at the end

vishankar
03-14-2019, 03:22 PM
Check if you have tested for rs4988235. The mutation is T/A.

yeah...mine is A/G...should be lactose intolerant!

parasar
03-14-2019, 04:22 PM
I must also recommend this book- Early Indians -by Tony Joseph,his writing and ideas are easy on the senses!He talks about lactase persistence in the Indians who carry the mutation 13190T..similar to europeans inn the ability to digest milk.....I wonder if we Mallus ( any percentage) have this mutation?.....I say so because I am a great addict of Sambaram( all malayalis on this forum know about it I am sure)!!!....;)

I would not associate derived rs4988235 with Indo-Europeans or at least all Indo-Europeans.

1. The Kalash an old isolated Indo-European group are 100% ancestral at rs4988235.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10779-PIE-Homeland-in-Western-Asia-a-plausible-theory&p=292020&viewfull=1#post292020

2. Derived rs4988235 hardly shows up on the steppe and in Swat in the samples in the Vagheesh Narasimhan dataset. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbFPPRuX4AEv8OU.jpg

3. In Italy derived rs4988235 is absent before the CE.
"Lactase persistence alleles appear abruptly after 0 AD."
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=545077&viewfull=1#post545077

vishankar
03-14-2019, 04:22 PM
whats funny that all the others-whosover concatenated DNA I have access to is showing G/G , does that mean I Have a mutation ?

BMG
03-14-2019, 04:59 PM
whats funny that all the others-whosover concatenated DNA I have access to is showing G/G , does that mean I Have a mutation ?

Yeah GG is lactose intolerant .Since you have AG you are lactose tolerant . In 23andme raw data it is C->T and in ftdna it is G->A which confused me .
Lactose intolerance among my kits
PGF (23&me) - CC -lactose intolerant
PGM (23&me) - CT -lactose tolerant
MGM (FTDNA) - AG - lactose tolerant
Me (FTDNA) - GG - lactose intolerant

Mandoos
03-14-2019, 05:00 PM
whats funny that all the others-whosover concatenated DNA I have access to is showing G/G , does that mean I Have a mutation ?

I should.have said A or T depending if they tested forward or reverse strand. The / implies homologous alleles so you have both the ancestral and tolerant variant.

vishankar
03-14-2019, 05:23 PM
As I am typing...I am drinking my favorite sambaram....!:)..I wonder how this mutation would be in south indian pastoralists like Todas,they drink a lot of milk and use milk products....as well as the milkmen castes- maniyani( in north malabar) ,eruman in south kerala, Golla, Yadava IN KARNATAKA and AP...

parasar
03-14-2019, 11:40 PM
As I am typing...I am drinking my favorite sambaram....!:)..I wonder how this mutation would be in south indian pastoralists like Todas,they drink a lot of milk and use milk products....as well as the milkmen castes- maniyani( in north malabar) ,eruman in south kerala, Golla, Yadava IN KARNATAKA and AP...

"Toda ... -13910*T for the same group (0.445) ... these populations (Ror, Jat Muslim, and Toda) have the first, third, and fourth highest frequencies of the -13910*T allele in the sample"
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/1/249/1749245

parasar
03-15-2019, 01:44 AM
I would not associate derived rs4988235 with Indo-Europeans or at least all Indo-Europeans.

1. The Kalash an old isolated Indo-European group are 100% ancestral at rs4988235.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10779-PIE-Homeland-in-Western-Asia-a-plausible-theory&p=292020&viewfull=1#post292020

2. Derived rs4988235 hardly shows up on the steppe and in Swat in the samples in the Vagheesh Narasimhan dataset. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbFPPRuX4AEv8OU.jpg

3. In Italy derived rs4988235 is absent before the CE.
"Lactase persistence alleles appear abruptly after 0 AD."
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=545077&viewfull=1#post545077

And about the same situation in Iberia:
"the lactase persistence allele at rs4988235 ... in Iberia, the allele continued to occur at low frequency in the Iron Age (fig. S9) and only approached present-day frequencies in the past 2000 years, pointing to recent strong selection."
Even though the Y-R transformation is earlier:
"2000 BCE ... Y-chromosome turnover ... as the lineages common in Copper Age Iberia (I2, G2, and H) were almost completely replaced by one lineage, R1bM269."
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

tipirneni
03-15-2019, 08:02 PM
As I am typing...I am drinking my favorite sambaram....!:)..I wonder how this mutation would be in south indian pastoralists like Todas,they drink a lot of milk and use milk products....as well as the milkmen castes- maniyani( in north malabar) ,eruman in south kerala, Golla, Yadava IN KARNATAKA and AP...
There are more complex variations of 101 SNPs located in an ‘enhancer’ sequence
in an intron of a neighboring gene (MCM6) and modulate
lactase transcription in vitro.

Table A2 F ST and p excess for 101 SNPs around LCT


Frequency (%) in Value for
SNP ID Coordinatea Alleleb European Americans African Americans East Asians F ST p excess
rs1531957 134781635 T 21.3 8.2 26.5 0.03 …
rs1996589 134887524 T 68.8 33.0 60.0 .09 .42
rs1257168 134986220 A 40.4 7.1 18.2 .10 …
rs1257220 135037675 A 17.7 16.0 31.4 .02 .25
rs842360 135370213 C 34.4 46.8 76.5 .12 .44
rs1942043 135577820 C 3.1 5.1 6.1 0 …
rs749017 135595987 G 30.0 44.8 30.6 .01 .20
rs766271 135689459 C 55.4 30.6 46.3 .03 .28
rs2322254 135773177 C 19.8 35.0 51.4 .07 .54
rs1551497 135809970 C 15.0 47.8 16.1 .11 .53
rs1031575 135880258 G 3.1 1.0 2.9 0 …
rs2290518 135901142 G 85.4 42.0 80.0 .17 .63
rs2305594 135912936 C 9.4 6.1 15.7 .01 …
rs4954222 135934583 G 9.4 6.1 15.7 .01 …
rs2305247 135950620 T 2.1 20.0 1.4 .10 …
rs2305248 135950640 A 85.4 40.4 81.8 .19 .62
rs935612 135963831 A 88.5 42.0 92.6 .27 …
rs4954228 135998826 A 89.6 43.0 91.2 .26 …
rs4954231 136038842 T 8.1 32.0 7.6 .09 …
rs737388 136095539 C 2.1 21.0 1.4 .10 …
rs1469950 136150582 G 4.9 1.2 1.7 0 …
rs2118395 136223648 T 7.4 4.0 7.1 0 …
rs4954259 136260322 A 4.1 0 3.1 0 …
rs1370533 136272613 C 94.8 43.9 91.4 .30 …
rs984763 136367366 A 2.5 4.0 7.10 .00 …
rs2034277 136399322 C 0 15.6 0 .10 …
rs958400 136403174 A 0 35.0 0 .26 …
rs2289963 136428206 A 6.0 10.2 8.6 .00 …
rs4954278 136430619 T 9.2 20.8 9.1 .02 …
rs1438303 136452185 T 9.4 18.4 51.4 .16 …
rs313522 136453194 T 83.0 26.0 11.8 .39 .79
rs313520 136462199 A 0 11.0 0 .07 …
rs629377 136474052 T 0 13.0 0 .08 …
rs2117511 136484989 A 90.6 43.9 64.7 .16 …
rs2304367 136489492 C 0 13.0 0 .08 …
rs1347767 136507985 G 0 13.0 0 .08 …
rs1438307 136521494 T 83.0 25.0 33.3 .26 .76
rs3213889 136533903 G 82.6 26.5 35.3 .24 .75
rs2304601 136550362 A 0 1.0 0 0 …
rs2304602 136560269 G 0 0 4.3 .02 …
rs1030766 136575510 A 8.3 45.0 27.1 .11 …
rs1030764 136575857 T 86.5 47.0 62.9 .11 .70
rs1011361 136575967 A 83.3 28.0 35.7 .23 .76
rs2015532 136577853 G 8.3 20.0 18.8 .01 …
rs2322659 136577987 C 86.4 46.0 40.0 .17 .76
rs872151 136579133 T 8.3 11.0 14.3 0 …
rs892715 136598905 C 81.5 23.9 34.8 .24 .74
rs2322812 136600368 G 5.8 12.0 14.3 .01 …
rs2874874 136600522 C 6.8 10.4 14.7 0 …
rs2164210 136602615 C 81.3 24.5 37.1 .23 .73
rs1470457 136604176 G 15.6 45.7 38.2 .07 .63
rs730005 136605022 C 7.6 24.5 23.5 .03 …
rs2322813 136605137 G 6.8 14.6 18.3 .01 …
rs745500 136605520 A 81.9 25.0 37.9 .23 .74
rs2236783 136616486 A 81.9 25.0 32.9 .25 .75
rs2082730 136629069 G 0 10.0 0 .06 …
rs4988235 136630974 T 77.2 14.0 0 .53 …
rs2304369 136631648 A 3.4 18.0 1.4 .07 …
rs309180 136636583 A 82.6 23.5 32.9 .26 .76
rs309181 136637141 G 81.8 26.5 42.6 .21 .72
rs182549 136639082 T 77.1 13.3 0 .53 …
rs309176 136644544 C 81.4 25.0 32.9 .24 .74
rs309125 136665883 C 81.5 28.0 32.9 .23 .73
rs309167 136691592 T 9.5 20.4 24.3 .02 …
rs2322725 136699520 C 9.1 19.0 17.1 .01 …
rs192822 136704602 T 85.7 40.0 32.9 .21 .78
rs309163 136713685 A 0 8.2 0 .05 …
rs309120 136731115 G 8.0 39.0 48.6 .13 …
rs3112496 136733392 T 8.3 39.8 48.6 .13 …
rs309142 136737652 C 8.1 39.1 48.4 .13 …
rs522086 136757469 T 0 5.1 0 .03 …
rs309118 136768552 C 8.3 26.2 46.7 .12 …
rs309137 136788279 T 83.3 21.0 28.6 .31 .78
rs1469816 136814744 A 1.2 32.3 11.4 .12 …
rs2090660 136841047 T 8.8 12.2 17.6 0 …
rs2090663 136852863 G 0 8.2 1.4 .03 …
rs1112156 136899042 A 0 5.1 0 .03 …
rs953388 136929457 T 12.5 5.1 32.9 .09 …
rs2176716 136946021 T 18.8 22.0 45.7 .06 .45
rs1519523 136956777 T 52.1 22.0 25.7 .07 .37
rs1519529 136996585 G 19.5 8.0 0 .07 …
rs4440020 137012655 A 91.7 48.0 50.0 .17 …
rs4075810 137025473 T 3.5 4.8 46.4 .26 …
rs4347891 137058006 G 3.1 32.7 19.7 .09 …
rs4245843 137062112 A 3.1 44.0 27.3 .14 …
rs4954411 137098753 T 58.3 25.5 18.6 .13 .47
rs4501004 137129075 T 27.1 50.0 41.4 .03 .41
rs2138140 137133257 A 4.2 35.0 5.7 .15 …
rs1399604 137152993 G 27.9 24.0 55.7 .08 .30
rs867563 137164828 G 25.0 22.4 40.0 .02 .20
rs578935 137233319 C 10.4 8.0 31.4 .07 …
rs1346822 137236689 A 9.8 15.0 24.2 .02 …
rs694510 137303189 T 21.8 44.4 68.3 .14 .61
rs876338 137311475 T 75.0 49.0 40.0 .08 .55
rs1427588 137514654 C 43.8 36.0 55.7 .02 .05
rs1346731 137634915 A 40.3 19.8 20.6 .04 .25
rs2370192 137649312 A 4.3 1.0 0 .01 …
rs518614 137739179 C 61.5 18.8 14.3 .20 .54
rs574135 137762448 G 62.5 27.8 19.1 .14 .51
rs1432232 137821992 C 64.6 28.0 54.3 .09 .40
rs882374 137935623 A 25.0 36.0 40.0 .01 .34
a Coordinate on chromosome 2, according to the hg15 freeze of the human genome (UCSC Genome Bioinformatics Web site).
b Allele shown is the minor allele in the African American population


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Lactose-digestion-and-the-evolutionary-genetics-of-Ingram-Mulcare/2f64cfeef069d85ec1ca5ea73d94918a830e37f7

more variations in Arab, African, Far EAST people than just the –13910C[T

vishankar
03-16-2019, 06:45 PM
I will recommend this website ...https://www.yourdnaportal.com/... upload your genome data and find the answers... I am lactose tolerant and have a worrier gene!..not warrior. so much for nair browbeating about warrior traits!:)

Kart
03-30-2019, 09:43 PM
Is that you at the end

No..that's my sister lol

vishankar
04-04-2019, 03:36 PM
not seen any posts here for a long time!

vishankar
04-04-2019, 03:39 PM
hence posting my results from wilhelm's ancestry tools..just some time pass yaar as they call it!296582965929660...

vishankar
04-04-2019, 03:47 PM
i think lukacs 47 is a fairly good attempt ...and so is globe 13 dodecad....

Thomas48
04-05-2019, 12:17 AM
Guys any idea if Tipu Sultans assault on North Malabar affected the Malayalee communities genome in anyway? To my knowledge the main proponents in this war were Tipu vs Nair Forces in North Malabar. From what I've heard there was numerous mass conversions and the guy really had it our for the Nairs because they weren't willing to give up the country and consent to Tipu's decrees (many of which asked for mass conversion). I've heard there were many events of forced marriages between Tipu's forces and the Nairs he forced to convert. Is there any genetic proof to this in our Nair samples we have today? The issue with sources related to Tipu Sultan is that I've heard many of the "primary sources" were written by the British to slander him (he was essentially the last hold out against the British in India), so it's hard to know what is true and what is false.

vishankar
04-05-2019, 02:47 AM
Guys any idea if Tipu Sultans assault on North Malabar affected the Malayalee communities genome in anyway? To my knowledge the main proponents in this war were Tipu vs Nair Forces in North Malabar. From what I've heard there was numerous mass conversions and the guy really had it our for the Nairs because they weren't willing to give up the country and consent to Tipu's decrees (many of which asked for mass conversion). I've heard there were many events of forced marriages between Tipu's forces and the Nairs he forced to convert. Is there any genetic proof to this in our Nair samples we have today? The issue with sources related to Tipu Sultan is that I've heard many of the "primary sources" were written by the British to slander him (he was essentially the last hold out against the British in India), so it's hard to know what is true and what is false.

Hi Thomas,
ifeel the brunt of the conversion was borne in Mallapuram, north malabar was not affected as much....i have read about a group of nairs who were converted to islam and then reconverted - Chelat nairs( i guess the word stands for circumcision),perhaps more than a nair sample , we need Mallapuram nair and Mapilla samples to compare ,I think I will be obtain some in the near future...!

vishankar
04-05-2019, 03:32 PM
Read this-

"Interestingly, the only instance of converted Muslims undergoing Shudhi and rejoining the Hindu fold in their original caste too has happened in Kerala. They were the Nairs converted forcibly by Tipu Sultan's hordes in Malabar. These converts abandoned Islam after the death of Tipu in the battle at Srirangapatam with the British. But they were not fully accepted by the upper castes and were rebuked as Chelat (circumcised) Nairs and were considered outcastes by Brahmins and fellow Nairs. (The ritual of conversion to Islam was circumcision, cutting off the foreskin.) A bold social reformer, Chandu Nambiar, worked hard to break the barrier to integrate Chelat Nairs into the Hindu Nair mainstream and succeeded in removing the stigma. (Joseph Edamaruku in his Malayalam book "Ivar Mathanishedhikal")

vishankar
04-05-2019, 03:35 PM
if anybody has more material on the above topic which Thomas started ,they are welcome to contribute....but the integration into nair mainstream was possibly such that presently it is impossible to know which particular nair subcaste these nairs returned too...

Thomas48
04-05-2019, 11:00 PM
Thanks Vishankar, I am actually conducting and soon presenting research on Tipus attack on the Malabari Kingdoms so any more material and sourcework would help. I have a book at the moment with the letters of Tipu sultan and if one thing is certain, he hated with a passion the Nairs (which I personally feel should be a sense of pride for Keralites, the Nairs didn’t want to give up the country). In his letters he compares the Nairs to beasts of the field and states how eager he is to circumcise and convert them all to Islam (in others he straight up says he wants time wipe them all out). Tipu’s assault on Kerala is probably one of the most tragic events in modern Kerala history, nearly all ethnic groups regardless of caste and creed fled to Travancore to the protection of Dharma Raja who sheltered thousands of Hindus and Christians.

I’ve read the Syrian Christians in the North who didn’t espace in time didn’t fare so well either. The ancient Syrian Christian center of Angamali was razed to the ground as well as one of the oldest churches of the community. This was probably drastic because Angamali was the seat for the metropolitan of the Syrian Christians during certain time periods. Knanaya were very lucky because we had already gone to the interior due to the previous wars with the Portuguese so none of our settlements were affected. From what I’ve read though the community feared an assault on Kaduthurthy in the Kingdom of Vadakkankur, so they started to bury relics and all the gold ornaments found in the church but Tipu never made it there.

As with all wars in ancient Kerala from outside entities the main issue is always disunity. Each ethnic group as well as feudal lords and principilaties nearly always only hold out for themselves, this was rampant during the Portuguese attacks on Kerala. Later they unify with treaties and break apart again do to one reason or the other. Similarly the second Hyder Ali and later his son Tipu Sultan entered Kerala, the Mappilas abandoned the Kolathiri Rajas and joined forces with Mysore. When the Mysoreans moved into Kerala further disunity is seen because of the encroaching European powers meddling in the affairs of the local rajas as well.

Thomas48
04-05-2019, 11:01 PM
Edit Double Post

vishankar
04-06-2019, 02:34 AM
Thanks Vishankar, I am actually conducting and soon presenting research on Tipus attack on the Malabari Kingdoms so any more material and sourcework would help. I have a book at the moment with the letters of Tipu sultan and if one thing is certain, he hated with a passion the Nairs (which I personally feel should be a sense of pride for Keralites, the Nairs didn’t want to give up the country). In his letters he compares the Nairs to beasts of the field and states how eager he is to circumcise and convert them all to Islam (in others he straight up says he wants time wipe them all out). Tipu’s assault on Kerala is probably one of the most tragic events in modern Kerala history, nearly all ethnic groups regardless of caste and creed fled to Travancore to the protection of Dharma Raja who sheltered thousands of Hindus and Christians.

I’ve read the Syrian Christians in the North who didn’t espace in time didn’t fare so well either. The ancient Syrian Christian center of Angamali was razed to the ground as well as one of the oldest churches of the community. This was probably drastic because Angamali was the seat for the metropolitan of the Syrian Christians during certain time periods. Knanaya were very lucky because we had already gone to the interior due to the previous wars with the Portuguese so none of our settlements were affected. From what I’ve read though the community feared an assault on Kaduthurthy in the Kingdom of Vadakkankur, so they started to bury relics and all the gold ornaments found in the church but Tipu never made it there.

As with all wars in ancient Kerala from outside entities the main issue is always disunity. Each ethnic group as well as feudal lords and principilaties nearly always only hold out for themselves, this was rampant during the Portuguese attacks on Kerala. Later they unify with treaties and break apart again do to one reason or the other. Similarly the second Hyder Ali and later his son Tipu Sultan entered Kerala, the Mappilas abandoned the Kolathiri Rajas and joined forces with Mysore. When the Mysoreans moved into Kerala further disunity is seen because of the encroaching European powers meddling in the affairs of the local rajas as well.



we must praise the resilience of the nairs, syrians and Knanaya folks who stood up to this bigot, tyrant...human spirit is indomitable!
I was just reflecting that if a person named chandu nambiar was instrumental in bringing back some converted nairs to Hinduism , then these nairs should be in present day north malabar!....I will try to ask some people here in payyanur and kasargod, as some of these events may not have been recorded in the written form!

BMG
04-06-2019, 02:53 AM
I have a friend whose family name is Chelat . He is from Thrissur . I don't know if he is a Nair though . I always thought it was a place name .

I found one south Indian kit with HV2 mtdna . I think she is a Tamil Brahmin by looking at harappa results .

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.26
2 Baloch 34.47
3 NE-Euro 7.08
4 Caucasian 3.23
5 SW-Asian 2.05
6 Siberian 1.22
7 American 1.16
8 Papuan 1.13
9 SE-Asian 1.05
10 San 0.35

BMG
04-06-2019, 05:07 PM
Interesting video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYmI48iddWs

Rustyshakelford
04-06-2019, 06:53 PM
Interesting video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYmI48iddWs

Seems everyone’s mixed.

Mandoos
04-06-2019, 11:44 PM
Interesting video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYmI48iddWs

lol. Are they referring to rice kanji?

vishankar
04-07-2019, 08:47 AM
I have a friend whose family name is Chelat . He is from Thrissur . I don't know if he is a Nair though . I always thought it was a place name .

I found one south Indian kit with HV2 mtdna . I think she is a Tamil Brahmin by looking at harappa results .

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.26
2 Baloch 34.47
3 NE-Euro 7.08
4 Caucasian 3.23
5 SW-Asian 2.05
6 Siberian 1.22
7 American 1.16
8 Papuan 1.13
9 SE-Asian 1.05
10 San 0.35

Hi...if she is on Genesis-gedmatch she may have an email id....why not email and ask which communityz?

BMG
04-14-2019, 04:42 PM
An interesting and unusual story of a Malayali . I don't know where else to post this story in this forum .

http://www.indianmemoryproject.com/185-2/#comment-126840

vishankar
04-14-2019, 05:27 PM
I have heard of him before...although I am unable to get the exact reference!..anyway thanks BMG.....a similar story is of Champakaraman Pillai, who colloborated with the Nazis, but was eventually poisoned by them when he outlived his usefullness to the Third Reich!...He was a Vellala Pillai.

BMG
04-18-2019, 10:51 AM
Online version of travancore state manual . A pretty comprehensive work .Never read it fully but have read the Syrian Christian history chapter .
https://archive.org/details/travancorestate00aiyagoog/page/n45

vishankar
04-18-2019, 02:33 PM
Online version of travancore state manual . A pretty comprehensive work .Never read it fully but have read the Syrian Christian history chapter .
https://archive.org/details/travancorestate00aiyagoog/page/n45



Nice...BMG, I would also suggest Edgar Thurston's " Castes and Tribes of southern india"- an exhaustive work!

BMG
04-22-2019, 01:24 PM
Online version of History of travancore by shankunni Menon
https://books.google.co.in/books/about/A_History_of_Travancore_from_the_Earlies.html?id=_ YdCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

BMG
04-22-2019, 04:15 PM
https://archive.org/stream/ChristianityInTravancore/ChristianityInTravancore_djvu.txt
Christianity in Travancore G T McKenzie

https://books.google.co.in/books/about/Native_Life_in_Travancore.html?id=aYdCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y
Native life of travancore - Samuel Mateer

Thomas48
04-24-2019, 12:30 AM
Here's a new St. Thomas Christian sample I was able to collect from the Syrian Christians of Kerala Project. He's run all of his tests and has the highest Middle Eastern ancestry of any Non-Knanaya Christian I have ever seen. Very likely a direct descendant of the Mar Sapor and Proth migration.

Autosomal:

Central/South Asia: 85%
Middle Eastern (Asia Minor): 14%
Trace Results:
Central Asian <2%
Siberia <1%

Y-DNA: L-M20
MtDNA: R5a2b4

Any thoughts on the Siberia that is seen? I've noted this in many Syrian Christian samples in general, it also seems to be present in Harappa World.

vishankar
04-24-2019, 02:43 AM
Here's a new St. Thomas Christian sample I was able to collect from the Syrian Christians of Kerala Project. He's run all of his tests and has the highest Middle Eastern ancestry of any Non-Knanaya Christian I have ever seen. Very likely a direct descendant of the Mar Sapor and Proth migration.

Autosomal:

Central/South Asia: 85%
Middle Eastern (Asia Minor): 14%
Trace Results:
Central Asian <2%
Siberia <1%

Y-DNA: L-M20
MtDNA: R5a2b4

Any thoughts on the Siberia that is seen? I've noted this in many Syrian Christian samples in general, it also seems to be present in Harappa World.

hi Thomas...what is the siberian percentage on Harappa?....my wife and her eleyamma9 uncle's wife) have 1.23 and 1.52 respectively...I have none and the thiyya lady in my sample set has nil either!....

Thomas48
04-25-2019, 02:37 AM
I believe in the samples I had seen it was very similar, something like 1-2% at most.

vishankar
04-25-2019, 03:28 AM
I believe in the samples I had seen it was very similar, something like 1-2% at most.

Siberian DNA from whatever little I have read is found in the Saami and Finns predominantly,definitely the percentages described by both of us dont qualify as noise either!

traject
04-25-2019, 04:35 AM
Razib's starting to look at Knanaya and other St. Thomas Christians. The endogamy really shocked him because of how non-Christian it is lol.
Here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121260906988613632) and here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121267777325682688).

vishankar
04-25-2019, 03:01 PM
correct me if i am wrong....but all the kerala groups of razib seem to cluster very close together right??

BMG
04-25-2019, 03:30 PM
Razib's starting to look at Knanaya and other St. Thomas Christians. The endogamy really shocked him because of how non-Christian it is lol.
Here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121260906988613632) and here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121267777325682688).

He has made an entry in his blog as well .
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/04/24/the-genetics-of-the-st-thomas-christians-part-2/#more-194683
In the admixture plot syrian Christians seems to have higher than expected Druze and Yemenite Jew component considering the geographic location and compared to other South Asians . The lower four in the bar chart might be the knanaya as they have it higher than the top four .
Except one all other nasrani have some detectable middle eastern ancestry .( I guess that one would be me . ) I think this along with the few middle eastern / south European ydna lineages is a proof that early Christians of Kerala did have some middle eastern ancestors who bought the religion there .

Rustyshakelford
04-25-2019, 05:25 PM
I think most of his Kerala dataset are AG users. I’m one of the four Kerala_knanaya and I’m assuming Thomas and his kits are the other three. BMG and traject are Kerala_Nasrani and I think bmoney is Kerala_Nair high caste. Vishanker are you Kerala_Pillai?

Thomas48
04-25-2019, 05:29 PM
double post

Thomas48
04-25-2019, 05:29 PM
Double post*

Thomas48
04-25-2019, 05:30 PM
Razib's starting to look at Knanaya and other St. Thomas Christians. The endogamy really shocked him because of how non-Christian it is lol.
Here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121260906988613632) and here (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1121267777325682688).

I gave him the Knanaya samples, his findings are very interesting. I also shared with him some of the tests we ran here. He seems to have further validated what we’ve found.

vishankar
04-25-2019, 07:14 PM
I think most of his Kerala dataset are AG users. I’m one of the four Kerala_knanaya and I’m assuming Thomas and his kits are the other three. BMG and traject are Kerala_Nasrani and I think bmoney is Kerala_Nair high caste. Vishanker are you Kerala_Pillai?

no i dont think so!....i have not shared my data with him!

vishankar
04-25-2019, 09:15 PM
no i dont think so!....i have not shared my data with him!

and yet it could be me....my data( my DNA coordinates are public!)....kerala pillai is nair only!

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:07 PM
today i received the family tree finder dna results of 3 individuals-
1) male nambuthiri of illam by name- ayyanikat.
2) my wife's relative- nambiar lady.
3) neigbour- vaniya.
i am posting the harappa results.

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:11 PM
the nambuthiri-30062

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:15 PM
the nambiar lady-30063

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:17 PM
the vaniya lady-30064

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:23 PM
the Nambuthiri's results especially his NE euro is not surprising,I guess given that the indo-aryan speakers intrusion into kerala was chiefly driven by the nambuthiri migration,the nambiar lady has 5.50 NE euro and 2.17 mediterranean which probably translates into a similarly high steppe influence...
what is surprising is the Vaniya lady's results - there is 4.16 NE euro ,big for a community which has never had sambandham with nambuthiris!...It also throws bmoneys segregation into high and low caste nairs on the basis of dna into a great deal of doubt, as the Vaniya is ritually a low ranking nair- Vaniya Nair.

The late Capt Krishnan Nair of the famous LEELA group was a Vaniya.

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:25 PM
there is material on the Vaniya from Thurston and the anthropological survey of India, Wikipedia had an entry i will link to later, but for now I will leave you with this link-https://www.quora.com/Is-Vaniya-Nair-an-upper-caste

vishankar
04-26-2019, 02:25 PM
https://www.quora.com/Is-Vaniya-Nair-an-upper-caste

Kulin
04-26-2019, 04:27 PM
What are the instances of J-M241 in Kerala, and in what particular groups?

BMG
04-26-2019, 06:07 PM
What are the instances of J-M241 in Kerala, and in what particular groups?
J-M241 is somewhat rare but still present at lower frequencies in Kerala at around 5% and in almost every sub populations . The J2b subclades among Syrian Christians who have tested further mainly belong to two subclades J-Z628 and J-Z575 . J2b among non-syrian Christian groups should mainly belong to Z2432 but only one Nair sample have tested for subclades .

vishankar
04-29-2019, 03:49 PM
here is the Harappa of the last member of my previous shipment-nair lady from badagara ( north of calicut) - thiruvoth tharavad
30175

traject
05-03-2019, 04:55 AM
An interesting blog post that may interest some people here:
King Alfred and India: an Anglo-Saxon embassy to southern India in the ninth century AD (https://www.caitlingreen.org/2019/04/king-alfred-and-india.html). It's possible that King Alfred may have sent emissaries all the way to Kerala/South India to give alms to the supposed resting place of St. Thomas and St. Bartholomew as well as possibly trade with existing Christians there.

bmoney
05-07-2019, 12:52 AM
here is the Harappa of the last member of my previous shipment-nair lady from badagara ( north of calicut) - thiruvoth tharavad
30175

thats high NE Asian

TBH the more i look at HAP results the better Davidskis G25 is, particularly Pois checkfit tool to determine genetic closeness of samples.

Theres too much overlap in minor components on HAP, some get NE Asian, some get SE Asian, some Siberian etc etc which suggests more distance than is actually the case

Glad to see Razib proved my theory of elevated Middle Eastern ancestry in (some) Syrian Christians not present in others.

It could be related to Knanaya diffusion to other Syrian Christians or the same founder pop for both or similar founder pops arriving at different times for both - use history to deduce

Syrian Christians are probably stratified into:

Local Ezhava converts
Local Nair converts
ME founder diffused converts, though probably with lower autosomal ME ancestry compared to the endogamous Knanaya due to mixing with the above 2

bmoney
05-07-2019, 12:53 AM
the nambuthiri-30062

Very good, looks more Brahmin-like than the existing Nambudiri sample on HAP (way higher baloch and lower NE Euro)

What region is this sample from?

bmoney
05-07-2019, 01:08 AM
the Nambuthiri's results especially his NE euro is not surprising,I guess given that the indo-aryan speakers intrusion into kerala was chiefly driven by the nambuthiri migration,the nambiar lady has 5.50 NE euro and 2.17 mediterranean which probably translates into a similarly high steppe influence...
what is surprising is the Vaniya lady's results - there is 4.16 NE euro ,big for a community which has never had sambandham with nambuthiris!...It also throws bmoneys segregation into high and low caste nairs on the basis of dna into a great deal of doubt, as the Vaniya is ritually a low ranking nair- Vaniya Nair.

The late Capt Krishnan Nair of the famous LEELA group was a Vaniya.

I strongly doubt you can attribute NE Euro results to Brahmins everytime, not implying that you are of course.

I mean mathematically Nambudiri Brahmins who average 4-7% NE Euro cannot provide 4.16 + 0.59 NE Euro + Med to a Vania or 5.5 + 2.17 NE Euro + Med to a Nambiar without the later 2 samples being almost 100% Brahmin.

There are a lot of similar non-Brahmin groups with probably Gangetic Indo-Aryan ancestry in North Kerala/South Karnataka who arrived perhaps as part of invading armies over the last 1000-1500 years. Chances are a lot of these groups also migrated to South Kerala in search of land/loot/work and perhaps also fleeing due to Mysore Kingdom campaigns

Chances are whatever dynamics applies to South Kerala/Travancore isnt the same as other regions

I was surprised by how far Thiyyas are to Nambiars though based on that sample you got on G25 (good work). All of the Nairs and Syrian Christians on G25 are closer to me than the local Thiyya.

I expected some elite Thiyya adoption into the Nair populace based on the fact that a fair chunk of my family are indistinguishable from Thiyyas phenotypically, and the fact that a few Nair samples in South Kerala score like Ezhavas. More Thiyya samples are needed of course

Anyway, the Vania result suggests more samples are always needed for theorising, and check out her 3.98 SW Asian!

Kulin
05-07-2019, 01:10 AM
thats high NE Asian

TBH the more i look at HAP results the better Davidskis G25 is, particularly Pois checkfit tool to determine genetic closeness of samples.

Theres too much overlap in minor components on HAP, some get NE Asian, some get SE Asian, some Siberian etc etc which suggests more distance than is actually the case

Glad to see Razib proved my theory of elevated Middle Eastern ancestry in (some) Syrian Christians not present in others.

It could be related to Knanaya diffusion to other Syrian Christians or the same founder pop for both or similar founder pops arriving at different times for both - use history to deduce

Syrian Christians are probably stratified into:

Local Ezhava converts
Local Nair converts
ME founder diffused converts, though probably with lower autosomal ME ancestry compared to the endogamous Knanaya due to mixing with the above 2

Oh shit bro, welcome back fam.

26284729292
05-07-2019, 01:11 AM
I strongly doubt you can attribute NE Euro results to Brahmins everytime, not implying that you are of course.

I mean mathematically Nambudiri Brahmins who average 4-7% NE Euro cannot provide 4.16 + 0.59 NE Euro + Med to a Vania or 5.5 + 2.17 NE Euro + Med to a Nambiar without the later 2 samples being almost 100% Brahmin.

There are a lot of similar non-Brahmin groups with probably Gangetic Indo-Aryan ancestry in North Kerala/South Karnataka who arrived perhaps as part of invading armies over the last 1000-1500 years

Chances are whatever dynamics applies to South Kerala/Travancore isnt the same as other tregions

I was surprised by how far Thiyyas are to Nambiars though, all of the Nairs and Syrian Christians are closer to me than the local Thiyya.

I expected some elite Thiyya adoption into the Nair populace based on the fact that a fair chunk of my family is indistinguishable from Thiyyas phenotypically, and the fact that a few Nair samples in South Kerala score like Ezhavas

You've returned to us bro. Good to have you back.

kush
05-07-2019, 01:24 AM
yay bmoney is back. missed you bro. good to see you back here

bmoney
05-07-2019, 01:29 AM
no i dont think so!....i have not shared my data with him!

You should, and yep im high caste Nair (cringe)

Does anyone know what caste/region specifically the Kerala Varma sample belongs to? guessing some form of Samanta Kshatriya. The samples result is very distinct

I should have said Nambiar but at that time i was operating under the theory that Kiriathil Nairs vs other subcastes were distinct and shared common descent across the state based on subcaste

But when I think about it, Nambiars/Nayanars never use the word Kiriathil to refer to themselves, it was something i found on wikipedia tbh (like sambandham which I never knew existed and doesn't in the clans Im related to, not sure about all Nambiars/Nayanars) and region probably plays a larger role than subcaste based on the results we've seen so far

bmoney
05-07-2019, 01:30 AM
Oh shit bro, welcome back fam.

thanks lads, damn you a moderator now

I got fraands in high places

26284729292
05-07-2019, 01:55 AM
You should, and yep im high caste Nair (cringe)

Does anyone know what caste/region specifically the Kerala Varma sample belongs to? guessing some form of Samanta Kshatriya. The samples result is very distinct

I should have said Nambiar but at that time i was operating under the theory that Kiriathil Nairs vs other subcastes were distinct and shared common descent across the state based on subcaste

But when I think about it, Nambiars/Nayanars never use the word Kiriathil to refer to themselves, it was something i found on wikipedia tbh (like sambandham which I never knew existed and doesn't in the clans Im related to, not sure about all Nambiars/Nayanars) and region probably plays a larger role than subcaste based on the results we've seen so far

Are there genetic distinctions in Nairs from North Kerala bordering Karnataka? I have wondered about this for some time. IIRC you're from north kerala yeah?

Like you score akin to a Karnataka brahmin, though that may be more your individual sample than the group as a whole.

Kulin
05-07-2019, 02:02 AM
thanks lads, damn you a moderator now

I got fraands in high places

Lmao :lol:

bmoney
05-07-2019, 02:07 AM
He has made an entry in his blog as well .
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/04/24/the-genetics-of-the-st-thomas-christians-part-2/#more-194683
In the admixture plot syrian Christians seems to have higher than expected Druze and Yemenite Jew component considering the geographic location and compared to other South Asians . The lower four in the bar chart might be the knanaya as they have it higher than the top four .
Except one all other nasrani have some detectable middle eastern ancestry .( I guess that one would be me . ) I think this along with the few middle eastern / south European ydna lineages is a proof that early Christians of Kerala did have some middle eastern ancestors who bought the religion there .

EDITED: added more relevant samples

To answer @vishankars question on whether the Kerala samples cluster together in Razibs analysis, short answer is they largely don't

Ive highlighted Kerala samples (or part Kerala) among Gujarati, UP, Bengali, Southern samples for comparison and added similar(ish) components together (though in the case of UP and Bengali samples some/all of their Cambodian +Japanese is a legitimate separate source of SE + NE Asian ancestry)

Sorted by Cambodian+Tamil+Japanese+Papuan

https://i.imgur.com/ttUz2s5.png

Sorted by Iranian + Yemen Jew

https://i.imgur.com/FH0qnae.png

Sorted by Lithuanian

https://i.imgur.com/2IOQtxc.png

bmoney
05-07-2019, 02:18 AM
Are there genetic distinctions in Nairs from North Kerala bordering Karnataka? I have wondered about this for some time. IIRC you're from north kerala yeah?

Like you score akin to a Karnataka brahmin, though that may be more your individual sample than the group as a whole.

Based on two Nambiar Nair samples (me being one) yes both of us score similar to Karnataka and Maharashtrian Brahmins on HAP (low sample size though, and Karnataka/Maharashtra Brahmin subcastes would likely be somewhat distinct genetically) and Iyers on G25 (partially due to the lack of the former 2 caste samples on G25)

Yes endogamy and separate ancestry/genesis would plausibly explain most of the difference between Nairs across Kerala. I have a theory that Coorgis and Tulu Bunts who originate in South Karnataka would score similar to upper caste non-Brahmin Hindu communities in North Kerala and I attribute this to being mostly related to the same founder population from further north in South Asia

tipirneni
05-07-2019, 03:06 AM
I have a theory that Coorgis and Tulu Bunts who originate in South Karnataka would score similar to upper caste non-Brahmin Hindu communities in North Kerala and I attribute this to being mostly related to the same founder population from further north in South Asia Nairs might be mixed with some other populations like Banas Cheras related tamil group etc.. compared to Tulu bunts

bmoney
05-07-2019, 04:19 AM
Nairs might be mixed with some other populations like Banas Cheras related tamil group etc.. compared to Tulu bunts

Nairs are almost certainly mixed with or are predominantly extracted/assimilated from pre-second Chera Tamilakam Dravidians as are all Keralites except maybe Brahmins

It would be unlikely for Tulu Bunts to not have admixture from the prior inhabitants of Tulu Nadu (such as Billava, the equivalent of Thiyya and Ezhava in Tulu Nadu) given Tulu is a Dravidian language though

client
05-07-2019, 04:24 AM
Based on two Nambiar Nair samples (me being one) yes both of us score similar to Karnataka and Maharashtrian Brahmins on HAP (low sample size though, and Karnataka/Maharashtra Brahmin subcastes would likely be somewhat distinct genetically) and Iyers on G25 (partially due to the lack of the former 2 caste samples on G25)

How different are Karnataka or Marathi Brahmin scores to Iyer, Iyengar etc to put things into perspective?
Is this affinity of yours specific drift related or due to proportions of components?

bmoney
05-07-2019, 04:58 AM
How different are Karnataka or Marathi Brahmin scores to Iyer, Iyengar etc to put things into perspective?
Is this affinity of yours specific drift related or due to proportions of components?

For HAP its according to components, which I would not take literally aside from using it as a form of relative comparison between samples. Drift yes according to G25 (whole genome proxy) checkfit, at least with Iyers and south shifted Gujarati Brahmins but I have no doubt that I have no ancestry from either group

We have no Marathi/Karnataka Brahmin samples in G25 apart from Varun whos half Karnataka/half Tamil Brahmin though plots further away compared to all the Southern Brahmins we have so far.

The shared drift is very unlikely to be a result of a common founder pop among all of these peninsular groups and more likely to be due to a similar mix of Indo-Aryan/Dravidian ancestry among disparate pops where Northern migrants mixed with peninsular inhabitants. This could be over different timelines too

Check the HAP ancestry pop averages for a relative view (rudimentary) of differences among Brahmin subcastes https://www.harappadna.org/

client
05-07-2019, 05:23 AM
For HAP its according to components, which I would not take literally aside from using it as a form of relative comparison between samples. Drift yes according to G25 (whole genome proxy) checkfit, at least with Iyers and south shifted Gujarati Brahmins but I have no doubt that I have no ancestry from either group

We have no Marathi/Karnataka Brahmin samples in G25 apart from Varun whos half Karnataka/half Tamil Brahmin though plots further north compared to all Southern Brahmins we have so far. This is very unlikely to be a result of a common founder pop among all of these peninsular groups and more likely to be due to a similar mix of Indo-Aryan/Dravidian ancestry among disparate pops where Northern migrants mixed with peninsular inhabitants. This could be over different timelines too, so the drift is not recent

Check the HAP ancestry pop averages for a relative view (rudimentary) of differences among Brahmin subcastes https://www.harappadna.org/

Thank you, and yes HAP does not allow for robust comparisons of any sort.
Anyway, I asked because on G25, Nair sample is at a distance of 1 point something from Iyer(normal nMonte runner isn't loading I will check later).
You however are at 2.27 but don't seen to have excess steppe wrt Iyer (maybe because of W v E eurasian proportions?)
"sample": "Test1:bmoney_AGUser",
"fit": 2.2768,
"Iyer": 100,
"Sintashta_MLBA": 0,

Presumably Karnataka/Marathi brahmins are more northern shifted than Iyers.

Varun is half Palakkad Iyer, I believe, and I think the telugu brahmin member "sudkol" is more northern shifted than he is. Maybe he has recent northern ancestry too, who knows.

bmoney
05-07-2019, 06:16 AM
Thank you, and yes HAP does not allow for robust comparisons of any sort.
Anyway, I asked because on G25, Nair sample is at a distance of 1 point something from Iyer(normal nMonte runner isn't loading I will check later).
You however are at 2.27 but don't seen to have excess steppe wrt Iyer (maybe because of W v E eurasian proportions?)
"sample": "Test1:bmoney_AGUser",
"fit": 2.2768,
"Iyer": 100,
"Sintashta_MLBA": 0,

Presumably Karnataka/Marathi brahmins are more northern shifted than Iyers.

Varun is half Palakkad Iyer, I believe, and I think the telugu brahmin member "sudkol" is more northern shifted than he is. Maybe he has recent northern ancestry too, who knows.

That looks about right. Did you use an Iyer sample or the Iyer average? Also I think Poi should break the Nair group apart by separating the Nambiars who are historically endogamous anyway, and this is probably the case with other Nairs like South Malabar Nairs. The Nair average is a weird result averaging relatively disparate samples


Presumably Karnataka/Marathi brahmins are more northern shifted than Iyers. it would vary among subcastes with overlap between groups but on average yes more northern shifted overall if i were to guess

Also do you know what subcaste the non-Iyer G25 Brahmin Tamil Nadu samples are (they could be Iyer but are not listed as such)? They also vary amongst each other but as an average score a bit different to the Iyer average

Sudkol is more NW shifted in terms of Iran N/Caucasian whereas Varun pulls more strongly towards UP Brahmins (due to higher steppe ancestry) which to me is a better proxy for proto-Brahmin in the South. Both obviously have Indo-Aryan ancestry

client
05-07-2019, 06:22 AM
@bmoney
I used the Iyer average, there is quite a bit of intra-iyer variation based on the samples.

On Poi's runner the Tamil Brahmin sample consists of two Tamil Brahmins(of unknown subsect), Varun and Sudkol(mislabelled, both of them).
The G25 coords sheet I have has two Tamil Brahmins, presumably the two 'unknown' ones on Poi's runner
Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:SB001,0.052359,-0.048745,-0.140666,0.097223,-0.078476,0.058846,0.00329,0.01223,0.024338,0.01749 5,-0.008931,0.001349,-0.00223,-0.001651,0.002579,0.00358,0.011213,-0.003801,0.000377,-0.003502,0.000125,0.001484,0.003574,0.004097,-0.00479
Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:SB003,0.055773,-0.04773,-0.139158,0.099484,-0.073244,0.059404,-0.00094,0.007384,0.024747,0.01877,-0.006496,-0.002997,-0.005649,0.002477,0.010179,0.014054,0.008866,0,-0.002891,0.00025,0.004991,-0.006554,-0.003328,0.00012,0.003233


In all likelihood these two samples are Iyer too btw(since Iyers are the majority). The sample seems a little different because it includes Varun and Sudkol.


Yes, I noted that Iran/Cauc pull, and I agree. He seems more like a Kashmiri Pandit than a Gangetic Brahmin.

26284729292
05-07-2019, 08:17 AM
That looks about right. Did you use an Iyer sample or the Iyer average? Also I think Poi should break the Nair group apart by separating the Nambiars who are historically endogamous anyway, and this is probably the case with other Nairs like South Malabar Nairs. The Nair average is a weird result averaging relatively disparate samples

it would vary among subcastes with overlap between groups but on average yes more northern shifted overall if i were to guess

Also do you know what subcaste the non-Iyer G25 Brahmin Tamil Nadu samples are (they could be Iyer but are not listed as such)? They also vary amongst each other but as an average score a bit different to the Iyer average

Sudkol is more NW shifted in terms of Iran N/Caucasian whereas Varun pulls more strongly towards UP Brahmins (due to higher steppe ancestry) which to me is a better proxy for proto-Brahmin in the South. Both obviously have Indo-Aryan ancestry

I've seen some kannada/marathi brahmins score identical to other south indian brahmins. Some are more guj brahmin shifted though and as you go north, that tends to be the case.

vishankar
05-07-2019, 04:40 PM
Very good, looks more Brahmin-like than the existing Nambudiri sample on HAP (way higher baloch and lower NE Euro)

What region is this sample from?

welcome back, dear!!!!..
the nambudiri sample is from the village Karivellur- northern most part of Kannur!

vishankar
05-07-2019, 04:43 PM
I strongly doubt you can attribute NE Euro results to Brahmins everytime, not implying that you are of course.

I mean mathematically Nambudiri Brahmins who average 4-7% NE Euro cannot provide 4.16 + 0.59 NE Euro + Med to a Vania or 5.5 + 2.17 NE Euro + Med to a Nambiar without the later 2 samples being almost 100% Brahmin.

There are a lot of similar non-Brahmin groups with probably Gangetic Indo-Aryan ancestry in North Kerala/South Karnataka who arrived perhaps as part of invading armies over the last 1000-1500 years. Chances are a lot of these groups also migrated to South Kerala in search of land/loot/work and perhaps also fleeing due to Mysore Kingdom campaigns

Chances are whatever dynamics applies to South Kerala/Travancore isnt the same as other regions

I was surprised by how far Thiyyas are to Nambiars though based on that sample you got on G25 (good work). All of the Nairs and Syrian Christians on G25 are closer to me than the local Thiyya.

I expected some elite Thiyya adoption into the Nair populace based on the fact that a fair chunk of my family are indistinguishable from Thiyyas phenotypically, and the fact that a few Nair samples in South Kerala score like Ezhavas. More Thiyya samples are needed of course

Anyway, the Vania result suggests more samples are always needed for theorising, and check out her 3.98 SW Asian!


I am on the job of thiyya samples,guys and gals! and with some luck i will get a veulthedan nair too!

vishankar
05-07-2019, 04:47 PM
i am very eagerly waiting for my first bunt result!!!!!.... the raw dna download has some problem , but ftdna said they will fix it....

vishankar
05-07-2019, 05:32 PM
thats high NE Asian

TBH the more i look at HAP results the better Davidskis G25 is, particularly Pois checkfit tool to determine genetic closeness of samples.

Theres too much overlap in minor components on HAP, some get NE Asian, some get SE Asian, some Siberian etc etc which suggests more distance than is actually the case

Glad to see Razib proved my theory of elevated Middle Eastern ancestry in (some) Syrian Christians not present in others.

It could be related to Knanaya diffusion to other Syrian Christians or the same founder pop for both or similar founder pops arriving at different times for both - use history to deduce

Syrian Christians are probably stratified into:

Local Ezhava converts
Local Nair converts
ME founder diffused converts, though probably with lower autosomal ME ancestry compared to the endogamous Knanaya due to mixing with the above 2

whats the implication with the high ANE?

bmoney
05-08-2019, 01:09 AM
whats the implication with the high ANE?

NE Asian is not the same as ANE.

These minor HAP components when historically not supported are suspect, as you would expect them to be uniform across similar pops

G25 is better for determining minor ancestry

BTW has anyone got scobars (Mappila) results? he should be on G25

Interestingly I have a top 20 match from Pakistan on 23andme who I suspect is from a migration Mappila family

BMG
05-08-2019, 03:41 PM
New ydna and mtdna study from lakshadweep islands
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43384-3

parasar
05-08-2019, 05:05 PM
New ydna and mtdna study from lakshadweep islands
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43384-3
Y- Posted here:
Over 82% R, with R2>R1a
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=566750&viewfull=1#post566750
https://i.gyazo.com/f112a3effbeb19f25339880c5fa4f1b0.png

parasar
05-08-2019, 05:15 PM
Any guesses as to why R is that high in Lakkadiv? - it is very close to the levels of some Bengal/Bihar/Nepal/UP populations that are in the range of ~90% R.

It could have been in the Moriya period when Asok sent missionaries all over, or perhaps the Gupt period (cf. Samudra)?

From the history of the Maldiv we have the following streams of migration:
Dhevis - from Kali Banga (Bengal? Gujarat?)
Redis and Kunibis from Maharat (Maharastra)
Adeet (Adityas) from Kaling (Orissa)
Sawamis - sent by Asok (Magadh)
Tamils in the Rajaraja Chola period (Dravid)
The Kalingan Adityas recovered power and converted to Islam after Tribhuvan Adeet.

BMG
05-08-2019, 05:27 PM
Any guesses as to why R is that high in Lakkadiv? - it is very close to the levels of some Bengal/Bihar/Nepal/UP populations that are in the range of ~90% R.

It could have been in the Moriya period when Asok sent missionaries all over, or perhaps the Gupt period (cf. Samudra)?
Possibly heavy founder effect . Many of the influential families in lakshadweep have roots from Malabar Muslims . Prior to the Malabar influence they might have indo aryan speaking like Mahls.

aaronbee2010
05-08-2019, 05:30 PM
Y- Posted here:
Over 82% R, with R2>R1a
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=566750&viewfull=1#post566750
https://i.gyazo.com/f112a3effbeb19f25339880c5fa4f1b0.png

J2-M172 also correlates very well with R2 (presumably R2a2b1b2b-L295) here. I suspect the majority of their J-M172 comes under J2b2a2-Z2432.


You can see them as Major waves of movement. There was L1 movement probably in Iron age time, H1 movement in Chalcolithic time frame, R2 & J2b during Magadhan iron age movement south .

L1 major castes : Some Mudaliars, Vokkaliga
H1 major castes: Lingayath, Maratha, Gujarat, Tribals
R2 & J2b castes: Kapu, Balija
mixed: Kamma, Reddy

Even here, R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 correlate very well.

Looking at distributions:

J2b:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8675629245_0f99cf87c3_o.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Md_kiPlGo2U/TZMHkPjQbyI/AAAAAAAAALc/KDzWdgiYfms/s1600/Hgs+India.jpg

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/10/YHRD-Branch-J2b-2015-10-07-03-39-24.png

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/10/J2b-M102-Project-2009_edit-2015.png

R2:

https://assets.wn.com/wiki/en/3/1e/R2_2C_Y-DNA_haplogrou-a955e6.jpg

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66603&d=1503221640

https://i.gyazo.com/43d1d5c868e0c0e7f5457e03d19bd597.jpg

Distributions aren't 100% identical - R2-L295 is clustered a bit more towards Andhra Pradesh and J2-Z2432 is clustered a bit more towards the middle of the Indo-Gangetic plains. Both groups appears to have a good cluster around Bengal. I think R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 entered South Asia together around the same time, for the most part.

parasar
05-08-2019, 07:51 PM
Possibly heavy founder effect . Many of the influential families in lakshadweep have roots from Malabar Muslims . Prior to the Malabar influence they might have indo aryan speaking like Mahls.

I think it is too much of a coincidence that the same Y-lines are so strongly represented in Maldiv, Lakkadiv, and Lanka. The Lakkadiv and Maldiv data was surprising to me in that W. Asian/Euro/Polynesian influence was 0 despite their being on major Arab, Austranesian, Persian, and European shipping routes. Minimal to no W. Asian Y-G, E, J1, etc. (saying nothing about European R1b or I!).

Despite them being closer to Southern India their Y (as also for the Sinhalese) appears to be of the Indo-Aryan type having not changed from the period of Indo-Aryanization of these Islands.

From the Maldive paper: "In conclusion, our results suggest that the proposed Indian Ocean seafaring route through the Maldives did not include migration to these islands ... Muslim Indians did not contribute more significantly to the Maldivian ancestral population than non-Muslims Indians, and that the Maldivians were converted by cultural diffusion ... The Dhivehi language is the southernmost Indo-Aryan language, and sharing of specific haplogroups with Indo-Aryan Sinhalese populations mostly from northern India and from Sri Lanka could point to a common origin of these populations ..."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652038/

aaronbee2010
05-08-2019, 08:01 PM
I think it is too much of a coincidence that the same Y-lines are so strongly represented in Maldiv, Lakkadiv, and Lanka. The Lakkadiv and Maldiv data was surprising to me in that W. Asian/Euro/Polynesian influence was 0 despite their being on major Arab, Austranesian, Persian, and European shipping routes. Minimal to no W. Asian Y-G, E, J1, etc. (saying nothing about European R1b or I!).

Despite them being closer to Southern India their Y (as also for the Sinhalese) appears to be of the Indo-Aryan type having not changed from the period of Indo-Aryanization of these Islands.

From the Maldive paper: "In conclusion, our results suggest that the proposed Indian Ocean seafaring route through the Maldives did not include migration to these islands ... Muslim Indians did not contribute more significantly to the Maldivian ancestral population than non-Muslims Indians, and that the Maldivians were converted by cultural diffusion ... The Dhivehi language is the southernmost Indo-Aryan language, and sharing of specific haplogroups with Indo-Aryan Sinhalese populations mostly from northern India and from Sri Lanka could point to a common origin of these populations ..."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652038/

Sinhalese are also majority R2 I believe.

parasar
05-08-2019, 08:38 PM
Sinhalese are also majority R2 I believe.

Yes R2 is a major line in the Sinhalese.

The Sinhalese and Maldives have Y-L which is was not found in Lakkadiv. L is quite well represented in the South, West Coast and the Indus region

Lanka had an earlier Yakka (Skt. Yaksha)* population and also has a major Tamil one. So my guess would be that the more isolated islands such as the Lakkadiv more closely represent the Indo-Aryan Y distribution than even Lanka. And this Indo-Aryan is possibly of the eastern variety where R2 >> L.



*"The earliest surviving chronicles from Island say that the tribes of Yakkas (demon-worshippers), Rakshasas and Nagas (cobra-worshippers) inhabited the Island prior to the migration of Vijaya in 6th century BC. At that time the Yakkas were very powerful and expert horsemen who are chiefly responsible for the irrigation system in dry zone for the development of the famous Hydraulic Civilization in the Indian Ocean’s Island. The Yakkas had established cities like Sirisavastu, Lankapura and Vijitapura. With the decline of the Hydraulic Civilization, the people migrated to the wet zone and built minor irrigation structures.

Rakshasas were a tribe described to have large bodies. The forefathers of the famous Rakshasa King Ravana lived along with the Yakkas. The Yakka king Vaisravana was the elder brother of the Rakshasa king Ravana.

Naga people lived mostly along the coast. There were Naga Kingdoms, Kings and temples. Naga kingdoms have existed in Nagadipa (Jaffna peninsula) and Kelaniya in Buddha’s time. Today the Naga people’s existence is not known by most people." https://www.srilankatailormade.com/why-sri-lanka/history-and-people-of-sri-lanka/people-of-sri-lanka/

aaronbee2010
05-08-2019, 08:49 PM
Yes R2 is a major line in the Sinhalese.

The Sinhalese and Maldives have Y-L which is was not found in Lakkadiv. L is quite well represented in the South, West Coast and the Indus region

Lanka had an earlier Yakka (Skt. Yaksha)* population and also has a major Tamil one. So my guess would be that the more isolated islands such as the Lakkadiv more closely represent the Indo-Aryan Y distribution than even Lanka. And this Indo-Aryan is possibly of the eastern variety where R2 >> L.



*"The earliest surviving chronicles from Island say that the tribes of Yakkas (demon-worshippers), Rakshasas and Nagas (cobra-worshippers) inhabited the Island prior to the migration of Vijaya in 6th century BC. At that time the Yakkas were very powerful and expert horsemen who are chiefly responsible for the irrigation system in dry zone for the development of the famous Hydraulic Civilization in the Indian Ocean’s Island. The Yakkas had established cities like Sirisavastu, Lankapura and Vijitapura. With the decline of the Hydraulic Civilization, the people migrated to the wet zone and built minor irrigation structures.

Rakshasas were a tribe described to have large bodies. The forefathers of the famous Rakshasa King Ravana lived along with the Yakkas. The Yakka king Vaisravana was the elder brother of the Rakshasa king Ravana.

Naga people lived mostly along the coast. There were Naga Kingdoms, Kings and temples. Naga kingdoms have existed in Nagadipa (Jaffna peninsula) and Kelaniya in Buddha’s time. Today the Naga people’s existence is not known by most people." https://www.srilankatailormade.com/why-sri-lanka/history-and-people-of-sri-lanka/people-of-sri-lanka/

Could the lack of L in Lakkadiv be due to some sort of founder-effect bottleneck?

parasar
05-08-2019, 09:08 PM
Could the lack of L in Lakkadiv be due to some sort of founder-effect bottleneck?

Yes always a possibility.

That is a pretty big sample of 166 for a total population of ~65000. I'm surprised no L was picked up.

bmoney
05-09-2019, 09:53 AM
Possibly heavy founder effect . Many of the influential families in lakshadweep have roots from Malabar Muslims . Prior to the Malabar influence they might have indo aryan speaking like Mahls.

My thoughts too

They are Malayalam speaking now, not sure of their historical background but likely to be migrants from Kerala

Interestingly no L

bmoney
05-09-2019, 09:56 AM
J2-M172 also correlates very well with R2 (presumably R2a2b1b2b-L295) here. I suspect the majority of their J-M172 comes under J2b2a2-Z2432.

Distributions aren't 100% identical - R2-L295 is clustered a bit more towards Andhra Pradesh and J2-Z2432 is clustered a bit more towards the middle of the Indo-Gangetic plains. Both groups appears to have a good cluster around Bengal. I think R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 entered South Asia together around the same time, for the most part.

I disagree with the J/R2 correlation as J seems pretty low in Bengal/UP overall whereas R2 is quite high (relatively). Andhra Pradesh is likely to be slightly different compared to other Southern States due to closer distance to Orissa/Bengal

Interested to know what Gujarat (Patels) J/R2 split is as a loose proxy for IVC pops

We observed substantial high frequencies of J2a-M410 (17–50% in Toda, Chenchu, Banjara, Kamboj, Lohana and Kashmiri Muslims etc.) and J2b-M102 (15–35% in Asur, Narikuravar, Pichakuntla, Shikari and Mondi, etc.) in several populations. J2a-M410 is mainly concentrated towards the NW border of India (comprising Gujarat and Rajasthan). However, high frequency and variance of J2a-M410 in PTGs (primitive tribal groups) like Toda (trasitional pastoralists) and Chenchu (hunter-gatherers and foragers) invoke interesting insights. Contrary to earlier belief, predominant presence and high variance of J2a-M410 among remote tribes dismisses any caste-specific distribution of J2a-M410 in India18. We found the distribution of both the clades geographically pronounced. From West Asia, J2a-M410 wave seems to expand West towards South-eastern Europe and East towards Central Asia and eventually to South Asia (Fig. 1a). Dense focal points of J2a-M410 can be seen along the northwest border of South Asia reaching up to South India. However, it shows a drastic decline towards East of India, consistent with our previous study26.

The Toda, who from everything ive seen are closest to IVC proto Dravidians aside from Gujarat Patels, are majority J, not sure of their R2 levels (ive posted their distribution somewhere before) but likely to be quite low

Im also interested in the prevalence of R2 in the J/L-rich Baloch/Brahui

bmoney
05-09-2019, 09:59 AM
Yes R2 is a major line in the Sinhalese.

The Sinhalese and Maldives have Y-L which is was not found in Lakkadiv. L is quite well represented in the South, West Coast and the Indus region

Lanka had an earlier Yakka (Skt. Yaksha)* population and also has a major Tamil one. So my guess would be that the more isolated islands such as the Lakkadiv more closely represent the Indo-Aryan Y distribution than even Lanka. And this Indo-Aryan is possibly of the eastern variety where R2 >> L.



*"The earliest surviving chronicles from Island say that the tribes of Yakkas (demon-worshippers), Rakshasas and Nagas (cobra-worshippers) inhabited the Island prior to the migration of Vijaya in 6th century BC. At that time the Yakkas were very powerful and expert horsemen who are chiefly responsible for the irrigation system in dry zone for the development of the famous Hydraulic Civilization in the Indian Ocean’s Island. The Yakkas had established cities like Sirisavastu, Lankapura and Vijitapura. With the decline of the Hydraulic Civilization, the people migrated to the wet zone and built minor irrigation structures.

Rakshasas were a tribe described to have large bodies. The forefathers of the famous Rakshasa King Ravana lived along with the Yakkas. The Yakka king Vaisravana was the elder brother of the Rakshasa king Ravana.

Naga people lived mostly along the coast. There were Naga Kingdoms, Kings and temples. Naga kingdoms have existed in Nagadipa (Jaffna peninsula) and Kelaniya in Buddha’s time. Today the Naga people’s existence is not known by most people." https://www.srilankatailormade.com/why-sri-lanka/history-and-people-of-sri-lanka/people-of-sri-lanka/

Exactly the proto-Bengal/Orissa pop that mixed with locals and formed the Sinhalese are likely to be of a higher R2 (+R1a) to J2/LM27 ratio than Dravidian elites in the south

aaronbee2010
05-09-2019, 10:15 AM
J2-M172 also correlates very well with R2 (presumably R2a2b1b2b-L295) here. I suspect the majority of their J-M172 comes under J2b2a2-Z2432.

Even here, R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 correlate very well.

Distributions aren't 100% identical - R2-L295 is clustered a bit more towards Andhra Pradesh and J2-Z2432 is clustered a bit more towards the middle of the Indo-Gangetic plains. Both groups appears to have a good cluster around Bengal. I think R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 entered South Asia together around the same time, for the most part.

Another point I forgot to mention is that the TMRCA values for R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 are both similar (only a 500 year difference).

bmoney
05-09-2019, 10:18 AM
Another point I forgot to mention is that the TMRCA values for R2-L295 and J2-Z2432 are both similar (only a 500 year difference).

Perhaps its a case of founders having different impacts in different regions but its possible R2 came earlier via the high ANE seen in all Indian pops inc tribals, proportionally higher than their Iran_N component would suggest

Both R2 and J likely came via the Iran N component though

Could you dig up stats on the older J2 clade in Gujarat and the NW, vs Eastern India?

aaronbee2010
05-09-2019, 11:08 AM
I disagree with the J/R2 correlation as J seems pretty low in Bengal/UP overall whereas R2 is quite high (relatively). Andhra Pradesh is likely to be slightly different compared to other Southern States due to closer distance to Orissa/Bengal

Interested to know what Gujarat (Patels) J/R2 split is as a loose proxy for IVC pops

We observed substantial high frequencies of J2a-M410 (17–50% in Toda, Chenchu, Banjara, Kamboj, Lohana and Kashmiri Muslims etc.) and J2b-M102 (15–35% in Asur, Narikuravar, Pichakuntla, Shikari and Mondi, etc.) in several populations. J2a-M410 is mainly concentrated towards the NW border of India (comprising Gujarat and Rajasthan). However, high frequency and variance of J2a-M410 in PTGs (primitive tribal groups) like Toda (trasitional pastoralists) and Chenchu (hunter-gatherers and foragers) invoke interesting insights. Contrary to earlier belief, predominant presence and high variance of J2a-M410 among remote tribes dismisses any caste-specific distribution of J2a-M410 in India18. We found the distribution of both the clades geographically pronounced. From West Asia, J2a-M410 wave seems to expand West towards South-eastern Europe and East towards Central Asia and eventually to South Asia (Fig. 1a). Dense focal points of J2a-M410 can be seen along the northwest border of South Asia reaching up to South India. However, it shows a drastic decline towards East of India, consistent with our previous study26.

The Toda, who from everything ive seen are closest to IVC proto Dravidians aside from Gujarat Patels, are majority J, not sure of their R2 levels (ive posted their distribution somewhere before) but likely to be quite low

Im also interested in the prevalence of R2 in the J/L-rich Baloch/Brahui

I think it's worth mentioning that I'm correlating R2 specifically to J2b. The majority of J2a/L1a1 in South Asia is clustered around the coastline from Sindh to Kerala. I'm unsure if correlating J2a and R2 is a good idea, as their TMRCA values and distribution are distinct from each other.

I don't think R2 is very high in UP either, so I don't see much of an issue there. As far as Bengal/AP go, I agree that R2 appears to be a bit stronger in Bengal than J2 - maybe a founder effect (J2 numbers in Bengal aren't that low, still)? Regarding the migration from Bengal to AP, J2 does appear have a decent number of samples from AP. Most of the eastern J2 appears to come under J2b.


Perhaps its a case of founders having different impacts in different regions but its possible R2 came earlier via the high ANE seen in all Indian pops inc tribals, proportionally higher than their Iran_N component would suggest

Both R2 and J likely came via the Iran N component though

Could you dig up stats on the older J2 clade in Gujarat and the NW, vs Eastern India?

As I said before, I think that the J2 in Gujarat/NW is mostly J2a, whereas the J2 in East India is mostly J2b.

If you want specific subclades I can look that up for you.

bmoney
05-09-2019, 11:14 AM
I think it's worth mentioning that I'm correlating R2 specifically to J2b. The majority of J2a/L1a1 in South Asia is clustered around the coastline from Sindh to Kerala. I'm unsure if correlating J2a and R2 is a good idea, as their TMRCA values and distribution are distinct from each other.

I don't think R2 is very high in UP either, so I don't see much of an issue there. As far as Bengal/AP go, I agree that R2 appears to be a bit stronger in Bengal than J2 - maybe a founder effect (J2 numbers in Bengal aren't that low, still)? Regarding the migration from Bengal to AP, J2 does appear have a decent number of samples from AP. Most of the eastern J2 appears to come under J2b.



As I said before, I think that the J2 in Gujarat/NW is mostly J2a, whereas the J2 in East India is mostly J2b.

If you want specific subclades I can look that up for you.

Makes sense to me

I was just thrown off by your statement J2-M172 also correlates very well with R2 (presumably R2a2b1b2b-L295) here. I suspect the majority of their J-M172 comes under J2b2a2-Z2432..

I think the first part is incorrect and the latter part is correct, and J2a is likely higher than J2b in South Asia

aaronbee2010
05-09-2019, 11:18 AM
Makes sense to me

I was just thrown off by your statement J2-M172 also correlates very well with R2 (presumably R2a2b1b2b-L295) here. I suspect the majority of their J-M172 comes under J2b2a2-Z2432..

I think the first part is incorrect and the latter part is correct, and J2a is likely higher than J2b in South Asia

Yeah, that was some terrible wording on my part from the first post. What I mean't was J2b (not J2 as a whole) correlating with R2 (the latter part was supposed to be the same point as the former part but they looked like two separate points because I can't even Engrish).

Most J2 in South Asia is J2a, so the notion of J2 as a whole correlating with R2 wouldn't make much sense.

bmoney
05-09-2019, 11:21 AM
Yeah, that was some terrible wording on my part from the first post. What I mean't was J2b (not J2 as a whole) correlating with R2 (the latter part was supposed to be the same point as the former part but they looked like two separate points because I can't even Engrish).

Most J2 in South Asia is J2a, so the notion of J2 as a whole correlating with R2 wouldn't make much sense.

What are your thoughts on your maternal y-dna R1b? British or Tocharian?

Also what Y-haplogroups would you associate with the BMAC

aaronbee2010
05-09-2019, 12:14 PM
What are your thoughts on your maternal y-dna R1b? British or Tocharian?

Also what Y-haplogroups would you associate with the BMAC

I believe that the vast majority of West Euro R1b comes under L51, whereas my uncle comes under Z2103, which has a very similar Middle East distribution to J2a. I'm not exactly sure whether his subclade entered South Asia alongside R1a or J2a but it was almost certainly one of them.

No South Asian L51 samples exist on YFull from what I've seen. L51 is a mainly European phenomenon. His Y-DNA certainly isn't British.

parasar
05-09-2019, 02:38 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that I'm correlating R2 specifically to J2b ...



As I said before, I think that the J2 in Gujarat/NW is mostly J2a, whereas the J2 in East India is mostly J2b.

If you want specific subclades I can look that up for you.

On this the Tharus (supposedly the aboriginal population of the terai as surmised from their malarial immunity) are different.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5658-Haplogroup-J2a-Serbs&p=115900&viewfull=1#post115900

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-9-154/MediaObjects/12862_2008_Article_1068_Fig3_HTML.jpg

parasar
05-09-2019, 02:52 PM
Exactly the proto-Bengal/Orissa pop that mixed with locals and formed the Sinhalese are likely to be of a higher R2 (+R1a) to J2/LM27 ratio than Dravidian elites in the south

It would interesting to see if the Nambuthiris show that same skew despite being a west coast population.

The TN Iyers and Iyengars are quite Indus Valley like in their distribution of Y-R/H/L/G/J.

Thomas48
05-09-2019, 06:29 PM
Hey guys, I came into contact with the administrator of the Nair/Pillai/Nambiar project at Family Tree DNA. He's a professor at a government medical college in Kerala and has a strong background in the biological sciences. He's really interested in the Syrian Christians of Kerala project too and we'll be sharing samples with each other soon. I'll share them here as well. I'm gonna try to join the project too so we can get a good layout of the Y-DNA/MtDNA of these distinct Hindu ethnic groups in Kerala.

Also I was reading into more of the history of Anatolia where the majority of Knanaya/Syrian Christian Middle Eastern ancestry comes from. Being the heartland of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Eastern Sector of Anatolia was a heavily Syriac Christian center (the Western Sector being Byzantine Christian). In the the 6th century, there was huge pandemic known as Justinian's Plague that killed off a large part of the population. I'm wondering if this was one of the reasons why Syriac Christians fled to India, would be an interesting research initiative.

bmoney
05-10-2019, 12:36 AM
On this the Tharus (supposedly the aboriginal population of the terai as surmised from their malarial immunity) are different.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5658-Haplogroup-J2a-Serbs&p=115900&viewfull=1#post115900

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-9-154/MediaObjects/12862_2008_Article_1068_Fig3_HTML.jpg

Am i missing something?

4% J2a vs 4.1% J2b2? seems low all around

bmoney
05-10-2019, 12:40 AM
It would interesting to see if the Nambuthiris show that same skew despite being a west coast population.

The TN Iyers and Iyengars are quite Indus Valley like in their distribution of Y-R/H/L/G/J.

Agree from what ive seen so far.

Iyers skew more towards south shifted Gujarat Brahmins than UP Brahmins but this is most likely due to be proto-Brahmins from both regions mixing with SISBA3 type elites rather than Iyers being descended from Gujarat Brahmins (aside from specific subcastes)

This would also be the case with Marathi+Konkan Brahmins, extensive SISBA3-type mix from a Gangetic Aryan Brahmin proto-pop

Varun is clearly more shifted towards UP Brahmins, and this what I expect the orthodox Indo-Aryan Nambudiris to be as they document their origins to Ahichatra/Ahikshetra (near modern day Bareilly)

But then again they also mixed with local elites im sure judging by that high Baloch HAP reference Nambudiri

bmoney
05-10-2019, 12:46 AM
Hey guys, I came into contact with the administrator of the Nair/Pillai/Nambiar project at Family Tree DNA. He's a professor at a government medical college in Kerala and has a strong background in the biological sciences. He's really interested in the Syrian Christians of Kerala project too and we'll be sharing samples with each other soon. I'll share them here as well. I'm gonna try to join the project too so we can get a good layout of the Y-DNA/MtDNA of these distinct Hindu ethnic groups in Kerala.

Also I was reading into more of the history of Anatolia where the majority of Knanaya/Syrian Christian Middle Eastern ancestry comes from. Being the heartland of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Eastern Sector of Anatolia was a heavily Syriac Christian center (the Western Sector being Byzantine Christian). In the the 6th century, there was huge pandemic known as Justinian's Plague that killed off a large part of the population. I'm wondering if this was one of the reasons why Syriac Christians fled to India, would be an interesting research initiative.

@Thomas48 I suggest looking into your Q subclade as well

parasar
05-10-2019, 12:57 AM
Am i missing something?

4% J2a vs 4.1% J2b2? seems low all around

The point was about the Tharus.
"On this the Tharus (supposedly the aboriginal population of the terai as surmised from their malarial immunity) are different."
Tharu Central I 10.5 vs 1.8
Tharu Central II 7.8 vs 3.9
Tharu Eastern 13.5 vs 8.1

bmoney
05-10-2019, 12:59 AM
The point was about the Tharus.
"On this the Tharus (supposedly the aboriginal population of the terai as surmised from their malarial immunity) are different."
Tharu Central I 10.5 vs 1.8
Tharu Central II 7.8 vs 3.9
Tharu Eastern 13.5 vs 8.1

What do those figures represent? sorry if im being lazy

Also mtdna M30 seems to be high in the Tharus, any thoughts on that?

I suspect the base Tharus have assimilated a few different types of genetic profiles due to their lower social status, Tibeto Burmans, Gangetic tribals and Gangetic Indo-Aryans

parasar
05-10-2019, 01:01 AM
What do those figures represent? sorry if im being lazy

Also mtdna M30 seems to be high in the Tharus, any thoughts on that?

J2a vs J2b2 %ages in the Tharus.

bmoney
05-10-2019, 03:33 AM
Another run for Kerala users and references, for some reason i cant work Scobars (Kasaragod district FYI) new v2 coords in the tool so using v5 here

https://i.imgur.com/gog6QMn.png

scobar
05-10-2019, 09:44 AM
Another run for Kerala users and references, for some reason i cant work Scobars (Kasaragod district FYI) new v2 coords in the tool so using v5 here

https://i.imgur.com/gog6QMn.png

Can we try this group w/ the G25 models? Both Davidski's model and G25 Moderns. Would be interesting to see the PCA plots too. Mine generally needs some african and east eurasian in addition to model better.

aaronbee2010
05-11-2019, 12:16 PM
Also what Y-haplogroups would you associate with the BMAC

I forgot to answer this question before. Are you asking specifically about J2 subclades or just any?

bmoney
05-12-2019, 01:33 AM
I forgot to answer this question before. Are you asking specifically about J2 subclades or just any?

Yep any

aaronbee2010
05-12-2019, 11:10 AM
Yep any

The main lineage from the BMAC appears to be J2a-M410 (mostly J2a1-L26), no confirmed J2b was found there. Most R2 there appears to come under R2a2a-FGC13203. All L found there appears to come under L1a2-M357. Even E1b1 and G were found there in decent numbers - there were also small amounts of Q, R1b (xM269) and T as well.

The study I'm citing for all of this is Narasimhan et al. 2018. The BMAC sample size is very small (18 samples, 19 if you include one sample designated as an outlier) and some of the subclade calls are questionable. It may be best to wait for the .BAM files to be released (whenever that will be, I've been waiting for ages already).

tipirneni
05-12-2019, 11:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIAFvG4pLpw

Kurumans Maternal genetic link of a south Dravidian tribe with native Iranians indicating bidirectional migration
Paper by Charles Sylvester, Mysore Siddaiah Krishna, Jaya Sankar Rao & Adimoolam Chandrasekar (2019)
https://tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014460.2019.1599067?journalCode=iahb20

Results: Novel sub-lineages of haplogroup R30: R30a1c1, and U1: U1a1c1d2, U1a1c1d2a were identified. Urali Kurumans pooled ancestry with the native Iranians sharing the sub-haplogroups R30a1c and U1a1c1d. The coalescence ages estimated for the sub-haplogroup R30a1c dates ∼ 9.4 ± 3.5 Kya and for subclade U1a1c1d dates ∼ 9.1 ± 2.7 Kya.

Conclusion: The study revealed a genetic link between Iran and South Asia in the Neolithic time, indicating bidirectional migration and admixture.

Kart
05-13-2019, 12:25 AM
I'm back y'all. Lost interest in genetics for a while. Returned after Vishankar's PM showing up in my email lol

vishankar
05-13-2019, 03:14 AM
I'm back y'all. Lost interest in genetics for a while. Returned after Vishankar's PM showing up in my email lol

and thanks to you , I have emptied my inbox which was full...you can send the message !!!:)

Thomas48
05-13-2019, 07:04 PM
thats high NE Asian

TBH the more i look at HAP results the better Davidskis G25 is, particularly Pois checkfit tool to determine genetic closeness of samples.

Theres too much overlap in minor components on HAP, some get NE Asian, some get SE Asian, some Siberian etc etc which suggests more distance than is actually the case

Glad to see Razib proved my theory of elevated Middle Eastern ancestry in (some) Syrian Christians not present in others.

It could be related to Knanaya diffusion to other Syrian Christians or the same founder pop for both or similar founder pops arriving at different times for both - use history to deduce

Syrian Christians are probably stratified into:

Local Ezhava converts
Local Nair converts
ME founder diffused converts, though probably with lower autosomal ME ancestry compared to the endogamous Knanaya due to mixing with the above 2

More likely similar founder populations arriving at different times. Nearly all Syrian Christians have some semblance of Middle Eastern ancestry from Anatolia and Western Coastal Middle East. Putting all the religious mumbo jumbo rationales aside, they probably came to bank off the spice trade and subsequently married into and or converted the local Native St. Thomas Christians.

The Portuguese actually state the Knanaya who lived in the Chera Capitol of Cranganore are Armenians by Caste. At the same time they also say there are Armenians in Kollam. This is actually right on the money with the two major Syrian Christian migrations that took place (Knanaya to Cranganore and Sapor/Proth group to Kollam). Historically Europeans essentially called all Christians from the Middle East “Armenian” iregardless of their actual church association (Syriac/Maronite/etc). They say also that the Native St. Thomas Christians lived in Angamali. From this we can deduce that the descendants of the Syrian migrations stayed in the large spice trading city centers and were generally extremely endogamous. Physical evidences to their migrations are also available on the cheppedu (Copper plates) they received from the Hindu Kings that welcomed them. Mar Sapor/Proth group were welcomed by Raja Ayyandikal Thiruvadikal and the Knanaya by Perumal Kokurangan. Nonetheless it’s amazing to see that genetics supports these ancient oral histories :)!

bmoney
05-14-2019, 04:21 AM
@vishankar, anymore samples in the pipeline? very much appreciate your work

Id be happy to fund some kits if they are missing-piece type kits

bmoney
05-14-2019, 04:31 AM
23andme v5 beta report @scobar could you post yours

Guessing their Malayali reference is a Syrian Christian given representation in the West

EDIT: checked the other thread, scobar got 0.8% Malayali - damn you're really far from the reference

https://i.imgur.com/n7D8Oyj.png
https://i.imgur.com/bZVkDak.png
https://i.imgur.com/NMyItq0.png

bmoney
05-14-2019, 05:36 AM
Further digging into scobars results in checkfit. He seems pretty far from all other samples we have on the tool based on distances 3+ probably due to mixed background.

For comparison my fit only goes above 3.23 for the 34th closest result (Knanaya sample) and were both on 23andme v5 kits

His closest group are the Knanaya probably due to the ME ancestry

https://i.imgur.com/YA7yNyz.png

Both of us are far to the local Thiyya and to each other. Scobars further from me than any other Kerala user here (except Kalashviv FIL) which i didnt expect. hes further than Midichlorian is to me!

https://i.imgur.com/yaxQcyI.png

vishankar
05-14-2019, 03:07 PM
@vishankar, anymore samples in the pipeline? very much appreciate your work

Id be happy to fund some kits if they are missing-piece type kits

a huge chunk coming up....namboodiri ,one bunt, one male thiyya and some nairs-nambiars,payyannur poduvals!

vishankar
05-14-2019, 03:09 PM
where exactly in kasargod is scobar from????

vishankar
05-14-2019, 03:10 PM
folks, is there any place where one could have a fundraiser/, working on grants from pharma companies!....

bmoney
05-15-2019, 01:46 AM
where exactly in kasargod is scobar from????

Not sure, he said rural Kasaragod, which is pretty much most of Kasaragod

And his maternal family are migrants from Calicut district

Also FYI northern Kasaragod is different to southern Kasaragod (south of the Chandragiri i presume). Id say southern is where Malayalam native influence is still supreme and northern is where Kannadiga/Tulu influence starts and Malayalam loses its dominance. Maybe this shows genetically

No Nambiar tharavads are found in northern Kasaragod which I assume is where Bunt/Nadava territory begins

I've never been to places like Kumble (where Anil Kumble gets his name) aside from road trips to Mangalore airport

scobar
05-15-2019, 03:23 AM
I was surprised by 23andMe's 0.8% Malayali assertion. But it's a beta and they probably need much more data especially with a diverse place like Kerala. The beta also splits all of my south asian assignments between north indian/asian and south/central indian/sri lankan categories. Here's the report, plus the 2 PCA plots I got with my G25 from 23andMe v5 and Ancestry v2 co-ordinates in that order.

30425

30426

30427

30428

30429

Actually on my maternal side, only my grandmother's mother's family is from Calicut. Everyone else is from northern Kasaragod itself as far as I know.

scobar
05-15-2019, 10:25 PM
Did everyone here (on v5) get a good chunk of the Malayali category on the beta? If the references are based on Syrian Christians, they should've gotten the most.

Mandoos
05-16-2019, 12:27 AM
Did everyone here (on v5) get a good chunk of the Malayali category on the beta? If the references are based on Syrian Christians, they should've gotten the most.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16342-23andme-Beta-updated-Ancestry-composition&p=539546&viewfull=1#post539546

Yep, v4 but I have 300+ Christian malayalis on my relative finder

traject
05-16-2019, 01:12 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16342-23andme-Beta-updated-Ancestry-composition&p=539546&viewfull=1#post539546

Yep, v4 but I have 300+ Christian malayalis on my relative finder

Oh wow, mine is 900+ with surprisingly very few non-Christian Malayali samples even among the most distant matches.

bmoney
05-16-2019, 01:55 AM
23andme finder seems accurate for me yes nearly all Hindu names among close relatives (.15%+) (Nair/Brahmin possibly Thiyya) with two Mappila (one from Pakistan lmao)

The Abraham, George, Varughese etc names, excluding Europeans, appear around where i start getting Ahuja, Kulkarni though they do appear at .13% and below

bmoney
05-16-2019, 01:57 AM
@vishankar what caste/community is your FIL? whys he so far on the checkfit?

pnb123
05-16-2019, 02:21 AM
23andme finder seems accurate for me yes nearly all Hindu names among close relatives (.15%+) (Nair/Brahmin possibly Thiyya) with two Mappila (one from Pakistan lmao)

The Abraham, George, Varughese etc names, excluding Europeans, appear around where i start getting Ahuja, Kulkarni though they do appear at .13% and below
I’m mostly getting Brahmins (Nepali ones), some Chhetris, and few other TB folks. From India they have surnames like Joshi, Chamoli, Mahalingam, Kalia, Bisht, Ahuja. Few Indian Muslims with Ali surname and Pakistani with Bukhari surname.

26284729292
05-16-2019, 03:00 AM
I'm getting normal iyers and iyengars with a lot of deshpande, kulkarni, kolhapure, joshi, etc (maharasthra/karnataka/etc.).

Later on, I get some ahuja, taneja, saini, etc, and some random euro

FrostAssassin0701
05-16-2019, 03:13 AM
I get about a dozen Bengali Brahmins, a Pakistani, two Bangladeshis and two Europeans at above 0.15%. After that's it's almost exclusively Europeans and maybe a Persian or two. My mom gets a bunch of fairly distant (0.1-0.14%) Korean/Chinese matches alongside the Bangladeshis and Bengali Brahmins and my dad gets a few pretty close European matches (One is at around 0.33% but they're anonymous) and a bunch of Bengali Brahmins.

vishankar
05-16-2019, 03:36 AM
@vishankar what caste/community is your FIL? whys he so far on the checkfit?

He is a Nambiar of the PeringetH !as true blue a nambiar as could be!:P

bmoney
05-17-2019, 03:18 AM
He is a Nambiar of the PeringetH !as true blue a nambiar as could be!:P

interesting hes more related to Kart than me and much more related to the Kna sample Tobin552458 than to me, although even further to the Thiyya sample than I am to it :S im confused

Your wifes aunt is very close to both of us though :S

Any ideas? what company did you use for testing FIL and Wife Aunt

Do you have his gedmatch kit details? just PM me

bmoney
05-17-2019, 05:06 AM
edited out

Mandoos
05-17-2019, 08:12 AM
^ I dislike the term "Syrian Christian" for us non-knanaya folks in the south who don't have any ethnic ties to them. It's really misleading lol

My family by and large resembles the Nairs/Ezhavas that neighbored us

aaronbee2010
05-17-2019, 11:41 AM
Im still negotiating with my Mama to get a kit out of him as hes the only y-holder. Im 100% sure its R1a

Just get a Y12 (12 Y-STRs) test from FTDNA or YSEQ-Alpha (18 Y-STRs) test for your mama and infer his STRs. That's your cheapest route. Both routes are about USD65-70 inc. shipping.

This way, if you pay then he may be more likely to play ball.

Afterwards, you can pay for SNP testing from the matching company if you want a more detailed result.

vishankar
05-17-2019, 03:00 PM
message edited

Kart
05-17-2019, 11:27 PM
hi dear light eyes are seen in south kerala too!!!....maybe not so common but definitely there!

Yep... Actor Ratheesh who's an Ezhava had blue eyes. His daughter Parvathy also has blue eyes.

Censored
05-18-2019, 01:47 AM
I get people from all over the subcontinent except the east like Bengal. They tend to be Muslim more often than not. I thought they were mostly Hyderabadis but they're from all over including a surprising number of Gujarati Muslims many seemingly from east Africa. I wonder if I might have Gujarati ancestry down the line because I also commonly show Gujarati in nmonte oracles as well.

There are a couple Indian punjabis there too. Some Indo-Carribeans. One Mongolian, one Chinese guy, one Mexican, 2-3 Turks. And a lot of white people.

traject
05-18-2019, 01:51 AM
@bmoney

Light eyes is uncommon but not that rare in my opinion. Green eyes runs in my family and I myself am recessive for it.

bmoney
05-18-2019, 02:21 AM
^ I dislike the term "Syrian Christian" for us non-knanaya folks in the south who don't have any ethnic ties to them. It's really misleading lol

My family by and large resembles the Nairs/Ezhavas that neighbored us

Fair enough, i don't really know the terminology to use, a lot of what I don't know I refer to wikipedia which calls the community St Thomas Christians.

How would you classify the Christian community?

bmoney
05-18-2019, 02:23 AM
Just get a Y12 (12 Y-STRs) test from FTDNA or YSEQ-Alpha (18 Y-STRs) test for your mama and infer his STRs. That's your cheapest route. Both routes are about USD65-70 inc. shipping.

This way, if you pay then he may be more likely to play ball.

Afterwards, you can pay for SNP testing from the matching company if you want a more detailed result.

yeah ive offered to pay already haha no way i couldve got any movement without that condition.

he said he was skeptical because information on the mtdna marker i told him we carried, which he looked up on wikipedia, was a mess (which it is)

bmoney
05-18-2019, 02:26 AM
hi dear light eyes are seen in south kerala too!!!....maybe not so common but definitely there!

i didnt mean light eyes per se, i meant the combination of features skin and hair

could you edit your post to remove my quote thanks

bmoney
05-18-2019, 02:27 AM
Light eyes is uncommon but not that rare in my opinion. Green eyes runs in my family and I myself am recessive for it.

yep, as i said to vishankar im sure light eyes exist in South Kerala.

Ive seen Sri Lankan Tamils with light eyes, I meant the combination of phenotypical features that form a profile if you will

Could you unquote my post thanks

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 02:39 AM
Fair enough, i don't really know the terminology to use, a lot of what I don't know I refer to wikipedia which calls the community St Thomas Christians.

How would you classify the Christian community?

It's been a trend among the avid churchgoers to call themselves "Suriyani/Suriyanikal" or even "Nasrani" to more strongly associate with the original propagators in Kerala...but ethnically the group comes from diverse communities. Depending on the region the community could be more or less ethnically homogenous. We're mostly "mixed" from different hindu high or middle castes in antiquity. There isn't really homogeneity in any one denomination apart from Knanayas and some Anglican churches. Lower caste converts tend to be anglican but there are many who are also part of older/eastern churches.

Unfortunately in my family's region it's usually known whether or not a Christian's family line is originally low/scheduled caste, and people treat them accordingly regardless of their denomination.

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 02:46 AM
Light eyes is uncommon but not that rare in my opinion. Green eyes runs in my family and I myself am recessive for it.

It's pretty rare in south Kerala among Christians. North seems to be more mixed, I've seen people with such unfamiliar phenotypes in Malabar churches where most people come from that region. Just guessing, I could be wrong.

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 03:25 AM
Fair enough, i don't really know the terminology to use, a lot of what I don't know I refer to wikipedia which calls the community St Thomas Christians.

How would you classify the Christian community?

I really think the base term is "Syrian Christians" (related to religious identity not ethnic) and under that you have two ethnic groups: St. Thomas Christians and Knanaya. I'm not sure why the Knanaya are always classified as a sub-sect of the St. Thomas Christians, even in the earliest records by the Portuguese they write that in Kerala there are two ethnic groups of Christians, those of St. Thomas the Apostle and those of merchant Thomas of Cana (Knay Thoma). I think later European writers generalized and classified the Knanaya as St. Thomas Christians.

Speaking on the topic of phenotypes, here's a Knanaya ammachi with blue eyes. Also I don't know if this is seen with Syrian Christians or even Keralites as a whole but I've noticed alot of Knanaya have freckles. My mother has this trait as well.

30488

bmoney
05-18-2019, 03:32 AM
I really think the base term is "Syrian Christians" and under that you have two ethnic groups: St. Thomas Christians and Knanaya. I'm not sure why the Knanaya are always classified as a sub-sect of the St. Thomas Christians, even in the earliest records by the Portuguese they write that in Kerala there are two ethnic groups of Christians, those of St. Thomas the Apostle and those of merchant Thomas of Cana (Knay Thoma). I think later European writers generalized and classified the Knanaya as St. Thomas Christians.

Speaking on the topic of phenotypes, here's a Knanaya ammachi with blue eyes. Also I don't know if this is seen with Syrian Christians or even Keralites as a whole but I've noticed alot of Knanaya have freckles. My mother has this trait as well.

30488

Im not sure if thats blue eyes or corneal arcus which i have seen among elders with formerly brown eyes

https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-causes-a-ring-around-the-pupil-3421924

Separately i know a 'Mendez' Christian from Kochi who I met in university. He said he was Anglo Indian haha but the name seems Spanish not British or even Portuguese which has 'Mendes da silva'

EDIT: im 100% sure its corneal arcus because a relative of my MGM had the same condition (almost exact eyes as your quoted pic) in older age but had brown eyes in youth

Also blue eyes are a very rare variant in South Asians, i still cant tell/know for sure if there are any pure South Asians with this mutation.

On the other hand green eyes are rare but present because as I understand it, they are just an expression of brown eyes with less brown melanin and dont require the blue eye mutation which requires descent from one individual near the Caspian Sea who carried the initial mutation

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 03:38 AM
I really think the base term is "Syrian Christians" (related to religious identity not ethnic) and under that you have two ethnic groups: St. Thomas Christians and Knanaya. I'm not sure why the Knanaya are always classified as a sub-sect of the St. Thomas Christians, even in the earliest records by the Portuguese they write that in Kerala there are two ethnic groups of Christians, those of St. Thomas the Apostle and those of merchant Thomas of Cana (Knay Thoma). I think later European writers generalized and classified the Knanaya as St. Thomas Christians.

Speaking on the topic of phenotypes, here's a Knanaya ammachi with blue eyes. Also I don't know if this is seen with Syrian Christians or even Keralites as a whole but I've noticed alot of Knanaya have freckles. My mother has this trait as well.


I've not noticed anything about eyecolor but a lot of Knanaya have a different skin tone and look different in general. Some of the ones I've seen had big noses, foreheads and/or were very pale with brown hair.

Apologies for veering off topic lol. Its all conjecture.

bmoney
05-18-2019, 03:58 AM
I've not noticed anything about eyecolor but a lot of Knanaya have a different skin tone and look different in general. Some of the ones I've seen had big noses, foreheads and/or were very pale with brown hair.

Apologies for veering off topic lol. Its all conjecture.

Whats a way to tell a Knanaya from a surname, ie a Knanaya exclusive surname

Im not sure if ive ever met one, any famous examples?

What community is Asin? she is one of the few cute Mallu actresses IMO

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 04:03 AM
I've not noticed anything about eyecolor but a lot of Knanaya have a different skin tone and look different in general. Some of the ones I've seen had big noses, foreheads and/or were very pale with brown hair.

Apologies for veering off topic lol. Its all conjecture.

I've heard alot of people say this, I personally feel that Knanaya people just look like Malayalee's but there's been so many cases of people saying we look different (I even found something like 5 historical European sources saying Knanaya are distinguished in their phenotype). In my own experience, upon meeting other Malayalee's, they've asked if I was Knanaya even before I told them, and when I ask why they thought this, the response I always get is "light skin". There's actually this Knanaya man in my local community who literally looks like a white guy, as in he is pale as can be and has brown/reddish hair and for that reason is dubbed as "Sayip Uncle" XD. I've also seen other examples of this really white skin and reddish/brown hair combo but it's a minority recessive trait without a doubt.

traject
05-18-2019, 04:05 AM
What community is Asin? she is one of the few cute Mallu actresses IMO

I remember hearing that she was Knanaya but I could be wrong. I actually don't know much about her or what she does but, because she overlaps surname wise with many of my family members, I remember looking up her background a while ago.

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 04:11 AM
Yeah, I usually can't tell most Knanaya from other Malayalis tbh. But there are some that stick out and it happens more often with Knanayas than other christian groups, but not so sure if that has more to do with region, being endogamous or mixed ancestry. Same goes with names, they are either biblical or village names like other christians. I've seen unique surnames like Makil and Edath.

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 04:16 AM
I remember hearing that she was Knanaya but I could be wrong. I actually don't know much about her or what she does but, because she overlaps surname wise with many of my family members, I remember looking up her background a while ago.

Thottunkal seems to be one of those cryptic tharavad names based on geography. There are Jacobite/orthodox families with that name.

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 04:17 AM
The only unique surname that I know of is Kinan/Kinen, generally found among Knanaya in Kaduthuruthy, which was basically the communities capitol after they fled Cranganore. It was likely adapted from Knay (Kinan, Knai) Thoma's name sometime in history. This is probably the most foreign surname among us that I know of. There are also a few native house names that I think are unique to the Knanaya such as Makil, Kunnasserry, Poothathil, etc but many of our house names are found in some variation among the Syrian Christians as a whole. My own house name is even found among Hindus. To my knowledge tho, this is common among Malayalee's. People of all religions from one region will sometimes have a house name from a geographic feature in that region. There's a big hill/mountain next to where my family is from and some of the Knanaya and Hindu families from that region have surnames derived from the name of the hill, perhaps these were the first and or founding families in the region?

traject
05-18-2019, 04:23 AM
It's pretty rare in south Kerala among Christians. North seems to be more mixed, I've seen people with such unfamiliar phenotypes in Malabar churches where most people come from that region. Just guessing, I could be wrong.

One reason that I've heard from those family members was that it was traditionally seen as a negative characteristic (I think the translated term used was cat-eyes; correct me if I'm wrong).

Rustyshakelford
05-18-2019, 04:29 AM
I've heard alot of people say this, I personally feel that Knanaya people just look like Malayalee's but there's been so many cases of people saying we look different (I even found something like 5 historical European sources saying Knanaya are distinguished in their phenotype). In my own experience, upon meeting other Malayalee's, they've asked if I was Knanaya even before I told them, and when I ask why they thought this, the response I always get is "light skin". There's actually this Knanaya man in my local community who literally looks like a white guy, as in he is pale as can be and has brown/reddish hair and for that reason is dubbed as "Sayip Uncle" XD. I've also seen other examples of this really white skin and reddish/brown hair combo but it's a minority recessive trait without a doubt.

Lol I have a cousin with reddish brown hair, brown eyes and light skin. people in our fam jokingly call him “kochu sayippu”. In Castes and Tribes of South India Edgar Thurston also mentions how some knas had reddish hair/whiskers. It’s funny you mention freckles, I’ve heard from older relatives that other Syrian Christian used to tease knas by calling the freckles ‘paranki koothu’ (Portuguese dots).

I’ve never seen blue or green eyes among us but I had a Syrian Christian friend in high school who’s brother had green eyes.

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 04:29 AM
One reason that I've heard from those family members was that it was traditionally seen as a negative characteristic (I think the translated term used was cat-eyes; correct me if I'm wrong).

That's a superstition all over India lol. In the north they are called "billi eyes"

traject
05-18-2019, 04:32 AM
That's a superstition all over India lol. In the north they are called "billi eyes"

Yeah, had no idea how widespread that belief was; only heard it was seen as bad for some reason.

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 04:54 AM
Lol I have a cousin with reddish brown hair, brown eyes and light skin. people in our fam jokingly call him “kochu sayippu”. In Castes and Tribes of South India Edgar Thurston also mentions how some knas had reddish hair/whiskers. It’s funny you mention freckles, I’ve heard from older relatives that other Syrian Christian used to tease knas by calling the freckles ‘paranki koothu’ (Portuguese dots).

I’ve never seen blue or green eyes among us but I had a Syrian Christian friend in high school who’s brother had green eyes.

Oh wow that's interesting, I had no idea it was so common of a trait that Knas were teased for it.

Rustyshakelford
05-18-2019, 04:58 AM
Whats a way to tell a Knanaya from a surname, ie a Knanaya exclusive surname

Im not sure if ive ever met one, any famous examples?

What community is Asin? she is one of the few cute Mallu actresses IMO

There’s no surnames in particular but There are certain names which are common among Syrian Christians but are completely absent among Knas. Some examples are varghese, mammen, varkey, devasia, ninan, kappen, koshy, etc. if you see someone with one of these they are likely not kna.

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 05:10 AM
There’s no surnames in particular but There are certain names which are common among Syrian Christians but are completely absent among Knas. Some examples are varghese, mammen, varkey, devasia, ninan, kappen, koshy, etc. if you see someone with one of these they are likely not kna.

I think there's somewhat of a split between Syrian Catholics and Syrian Orthodox as a whole in Kerala in naming conventions for some names. I know among the Syrian Orthodox, Varghese (George) is 10x more prevalent then among the Syrian Catholics. Nearly all of my Jacobite/Orthodox friends in the U.S. have the last name Varghese but it's non-existent as a surname among my Syro Malabar friends. Same can be said for the female Shoshamma (Susan) which is really prevalent among Syrian Orthodox and not so much among the Catholics. Than again these short more concise names are a more of a new thing (last 50 years or so) for the Syrian Christians. Historically we had names like Ittythomman Avram Yawsep (Thoma Abraham Joseph), whereas in the modern day that becomes Thomas Joseph lol.

bmoney
05-18-2019, 07:45 AM
I think there's somewhat of a split between Syrian Catholics and Syrian Orthodox as a whole in Kerala in naming conventions for some names. I know among the Syrian Orthodox, Varghese (George) is 10x more prevalent then among the Syrian Catholics. Nearly all of my Jacobite/Orthodox friends in the U.S. have the last name Varghese but it's non-existent as a surname among my Syro Malabar friends. Same can be said for the female Shoshamma (Susan) which is really prevalent among Syrian Orthodox and not so much among the Catholics. Than again these short more concise names are a more of a new thing (last 50 years or so) for the Syrian Christians. Historically we had names like Ittythomman Avram Yawsep (Thoma Abraham Joseph), whereas in the modern day that becomes Thomas Joseph lol.

Where does a name like Mendez fit (origin Ernakulam dist i think)

Mandoos
05-18-2019, 08:12 AM
^ most likely Roman or Malabar Catholic, some have latinized/Portuguese names

BMG
05-18-2019, 12:38 PM
Though this thread has become discuss anything about kerala thread i urge members not to post pictures and make this who is fairer kind of discussion .

Kart
05-18-2019, 01:02 PM
I really think the base term is "Syrian Christians" (related to religious identity not ethnic) and under that you have two ethnic groups: St. Thomas Christians and Knanaya. I'm not sure why the Knanaya are always classified as a sub-sect of the St. Thomas Christians, even in the earliest records by the Portuguese they write that in Kerala there are two ethnic groups of Christians, those of St. Thomas the Apostle and those of merchant Thomas of Cana (Knay Thoma). I think later European writers generalized and classified the Knanaya as St. Thomas Christians.

Speaking on the topic of phenotypes, here's a Knanaya ammachi with blue eyes. Also I don't know if this is seen with Syrian Christians or even Keralites as a whole but I've noticed alot of Knanaya have freckles. My mother has this trait as well.

30488

I'm sure there are people with light eyes..but that Ammachi in the pic has something called arcus senilis, not blue eyes.

Kart
05-18-2019, 01:03 PM
Where does a name like Mendez fit (origin Ernakulam dist i think)

Latin Catholic. They were converted by the Portuguese in the 1800s.

BMG
05-18-2019, 01:23 PM
Not sure, he said rural Kasaragod, which is pretty much most of Kasaragod

And his maternal family are migrants from Calicut district

Also FYI northern Kasaragod is different to southern Kasaragod (south of the Chandragiri i presume). Id say southern is where Malayalam native influence is still supreme and northern is where Kannadiga/Tulu influence starts and Malayalam loses its dominance. Maybe this shows genetically

No Nambiar tharavads are found in northern Kasaragod which I assume is where Bunt/Nadava territory begins

I've never been to places like Kumble (where Anil Kumble gets his name) aside from road trips to Mangalore airport

The muslims in northern kasaragod speak malayalam or beary (which is still almost malayalam) . I have been to places like Mogral , Meenja ,Talapady Hosangady etc and in these places muslims dominate and they speak and understand malayalam . Many of the Havyaks there speak kannada and do not speak or understand tulu . Other hindus like tulu brahmins , bunts and billavas speak tulu and many are often trlingual in malayalam and kannada as well . In much more rural area like vorkadi ,bandadka ,perla etc are often hindu dominated and many do not understand malayalam at all.

BMG
05-18-2019, 01:44 PM
The O-CTS4658 guy is Kna, he shows up as a close match and I recognize the family name. Is it possible the O is wrongly assigned Q? I have a number of Q matches on gedmatch.
He mtdna is M33a2 as well . He is a genuine O it seems .

vishankar
05-18-2019, 03:10 PM
i got talking to a senior doctor( a colleague of mine about my interest in genetics )....he is a Nasrani and gave his version about the knanayas-
a) according to lore they migrated from the area around armenia/ persia.
b) there were 2 ships carrying these folks...only one made it!.
c)he says knanayas are very much concentrated in his are i.e Kottayam.
d) if the ship arrived at harbour near present day cochin,cherthala , allapuzha., how come there are no Knanayas in these areas?..pertinent point!
e) he describes Knanayas as highly endogamous!
f) plenty of business acumen!!!!

vishankar
05-18-2019, 03:13 PM
I'm sure there are people with light eyes..but that Ammachi in the pic has something called arcus senilis, not blue eyes.

actually one of my distant uncles has light eyes- we call them poocha kanna, not only him as i write i remember a chechi( cousin sister) of mine in changanacherry having grey eyes....i dont think this has to with any haplogroups epecially given that light eyes have been noted in australian aborigines as well!

Rustyshakelford
05-18-2019, 04:08 PM
i got talking to a senior doctor( a colleague of mine about my interest in genetics )....he is a Nasrani and gave his version about the knanayas-
a) according to lore they migrated from the area around armenia/ persia.
b) there were 2 ships carrying these folks...only one made it!.
c)he says knanayas are very much concentrated in his are i.e Kottayam.
d) if the ship arrived at harbour near present day cochin,cherthala , allapuzha., how come there are no Knanayas in these areas?..pertinent point!
e) he describes Knanayas as highly endogamous!
f) plenty of business acumen!!!!

Traditional narrative has always been connected with kodungalor (cranganore) not with Cochin or its harbor. There was a gradual movement southward and for a time there was a large community in udayamperoor/thripunithara area near Cochin , although those people moved down to kaduthuruthy by the 1800s. Nowadays the two main population centers are kaduthuruthy and it’s environs and Ranni in the south.

Thomas48
05-18-2019, 04:48 PM
Traditional narrative has always been connected with kodungalor (cranganore) not with Cochin or its harbor. There was a gradual movement southward and for a time there was a large community in udayamperoor/thripunithara area near Cochin , although those people moved down to kaduthuruthy by the 1800s. Nowadays the two main population centers are kaduthuruthy and it’s environs and Ranni in the south.

From what I’ve read, right before the Portuguese get here Kna’s are found in four places Cranganore, Kaduthurthy, Udiamperoor, and a trade outlet in Chunkom. After Cranganore is destroyed, they all flee to mainly Kaduthurthy and Udiamperoor and portion to Chunkom. To my knowledge Udiamperoor and Kaduthurthy were settlements founded at least in the Medival Era, both churches are considered ancient Kaduthurthy dated to C.E. 500 and Udiamperoor C.E. 1000, thought I doubt Kaduthurthy is that old, it was likely constructed sometime between 1000-1300 since the community has a long history there. They were also in Chunkom for a long time as merchants deep in the interior, who had relations with the Tamil kingdom of Madurai. There are some historical notations about the Knanaya in Chunkom, stating they eventually became powerful tax collectors and by 1579 built a Church here is as well.

By 1550 Kna’s were only officially (had churches) in the two areas of Kaduthurthy and Udiamperoor. 1550 changed everything because the Kingdom of Kaduthurthy (Vadakkankur) was attacked by the Kingdom of Cochin aided by the Portuguese who won and defeated the King Veera Manikattachan. In retaliation for killing the king, the Vadakkankur army formed in chaver (suicide squads) and sought to kill all the Christians, seeing them as co-religionist of the Portuguese. The Tharakan, Kunchacko Kunnasserry was a Knanaya minister to the Kingdom of Vadakkankur and hearing about this plan gathered all the Knanaya and Syrian Christians and led them to Mulanthuruthy, where he built a church and founded a community. During this same time, some Kna’s fled instead to Kottayam where they founded a church and community, which was the seeds of the large community their today. Many likely went to Chunkom too and joined the small merchant community their. Eventually the ones in Mulanthuruthy were called back to Kaduthurthy by the descendants of the royal family of Vadakkankur and left the Mulanthuruthy Church in the protection of the Syrian Christians who are still there today. There’s actually a legend surrounding the war in Vadakkankur that states it was Kunchacko Tharakan himself that killed King Veera Manikattachan for attempting to assault his wife.

vishankar
05-18-2019, 05:32 PM
Traditional narrative has always been connected with kodungalor (cranganore) not with Cochin or its harbor. There was a gradual movement southward and for a time there was a large community in udayamperoor/thripunithara area near Cochin , although those people moved down to kaduthuruthy by the 1800s. Nowadays the two main population centers are kaduthuruthy and it’s environs and Ranni in the south.

HMMM..perhaps he did mention Cranganore, i may not have heard him out properly!

bmoney
05-20-2019, 01:27 AM
The muslims in northern kasaragod speak malayalam or beary (which is still almost malayalam) . I have been to places like Mogral , Meenja ,Talapady Hosangady etc and in these places muslims dominate and they speak and understand malayalam . Many of the Havyaks there speak kannada and do not speak or understand tulu . Other hindus like tulu brahmins , bunts and billavas speak tulu and many are often trlingual in malayalam and kannada as well . In much more rural area like vorkadi ,bandadka ,perla etc are often hindu dominated and many do not understand malayalam at all.

This sounds correct to me, thanks for the info

Surprising how little Malayalis know about areas outside their immediate ancestry! even the same district - it again hints to me that by and large there is no cultural/civilisational history that links all Malayalis with the land

My take on this is that Kerala is a product of migrations and mixing, which genetic calculators now show

What business took you to northern Kasaragod? the place isnt known for tourist attractions - Bekal, which is probably the most famous attraction is in southern Kasaragod

bmoney
05-20-2019, 01:33 AM
actually one of my distant uncles has light eyes- we call them poocha kanna, not only him as i write i remember a chechi( cousin sister) of mine in changanacherry having grey eyes....i dont think this has to with any haplogroups epecially given that light eyes have been noted in australian aborigines as well!

Blue eyes are definitely linked to one ancestor, who most South Asians are unlikely to be related to:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

Green eyes are basically brown eyes with less brown melanin.

This is not linked to one ancestor like blue eyes, however it is more common among families (my MGF family is noted in the community for having much higher than usual % and I have also observed this) suggesting some genetic link. Traject mentioned he carried an allele for green eyes which presumably was not expressed due to one parent (brown eyes are dominant)

It can be found anywhere in South Asia but is likely more common in the North and correlates with West Eurasian ancestry as East Asians have very low to nil levels (aside from West Eurasian mixed communities like the Uyghurs presumably)

Also FYI Australian Aboriginals, aside from very remote communities, tend to all have varying levels of British ancestry like African Americans, who by and large have varying levels of European ancestry.

I doubt that the remote non-European ancestry Aboriginal communities have green eyes at any higher levels than extremely rare

bmoney
05-20-2019, 01:41 AM
From what I’ve read, right before the Portuguese get here Kna’s are found in four places Cranganore, Kaduthurthy, Udiamperoor, and a trade outlet in Chunkom. After Cranganore is destroyed, they all flee to mainly Kaduthurthy and Udiamperoor and portion to Chunkom. To my knowledge Udiamperoor and Kaduthurthy were settlements founded at least in the Medival Era, both churches are considered ancient Kaduthurthy dated to C.E. 500 and Udiamperoor C.E. 1000, thought I doubt Kaduthurthy is that old, it was likely constructed sometime between 1000-1300 since the community has a long history there. They were also in Chunkom for a long time as merchants deep in the interior, who had relations with the Tamil kingdom of Madurai. There are some historical notations about the Knanaya in Chunkom, stating they eventually became powerful tax collectors and by 1579 built a Church here is as well.

By 1550 Kna’s were only officially (had churches) in the two areas of Kaduthurthy and Udiamperoor. 1550 changed everything because the Kingdom of Kaduthurthy (Vadakkankur) was attacked by the Kingdom of Cochin aided by the Portuguese who won and defeated the King Veera Manikattachan. In retaliation for killing the king, the Vadakkankur army formed in chaver (suicide squads) and sought to kill all the Christians, seeing them as co-religionist of the Portuguese. The Tharakan, Kunchacko Kunnasserry was a Knanaya minister to the Kingdom of Vadakkankur and hearing about this plan gathered all the Knanaya and Syrian Christians and led them to Mulanthuruthy, where he built a church and founded a community. During this same time, some Kna’s fled instead to Kottayam where they founded a church and community, which was the seeds of the large community their today. Many likely went to Chunkom too and joined the small merchant community their. Eventually the ones in Mulanthuruthy were called back to Kaduthurthy by the descendants of the royal family of Vadakkankur and left the Mulanthuruthy Church in the protection of the Syrian Christians who are still there today. There’s actually a legend surrounding the war in Vadakkankur that states it was Kunchacko Tharakan himself that killed King Veera Manikattachan for attempting to assault his wife.

Around what date did the Kna progenitors land in Kerala? when I say date I mean mainstream historian estimate

Garvan
05-20-2019, 02:49 AM
<<snip>> (brown eyes are dominant)<<snip>>

Thai school children are taught that the very dark colored eyes found in South East Asians, called 'black' in the local languages, and 'dark brown' in English, are recessive. The lighter brown eyes, more common further east, are dominant. Mixed marriages between blue eyed and 'black' eyed couples can have blue eyed children.

Thomas48
05-21-2019, 02:53 AM
Around what date did the Kna progenitors land in Kerala? when I say date I mean mainstream historian estimate

4th century (345), according to folk history/traditions and translations made of the Knay Thoma copper plate. However alot of scholars, even the Knanaya ones, believe the migration may have been much later, even as late as the 8th century.

vishankar
05-24-2019, 02:11 AM
here is the harappa of my solitary Bunt sample....please feel free to comment , surname is Rai30571

bmoney
05-24-2019, 03:42 AM
here is the harappa of my solitary Bunt sample....please feel free to comment , surname is Rai30571

Numbers and oracles bhai!

vishankar
05-24-2019, 09:24 AM
Numbers and oracles bhai!

here it is!
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.77
2 Baloch 36.09
3 Caucasian 5.07
4 NE-Euro 2.07
5 Mediterranean 1.56
6 NE-Asian 1.47
7 Papuan 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 2.703794
2 lambadi_metspalu @ 3.559701
3 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.766765
4 meghawal_metspalu @ 3.771550
5 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.080914
6 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.305325
7 ap-reddy_harappa @ 4.592040
8 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.716404
9 goan_harappa @ 4.716485
10 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.838844
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.970234
12 karnataka_harappa @ 4.992394
13 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.069695
14 tharu_metspalu @ 5.219707
15 tn-brahmin_xing @ 5.277253
16 up_harappa @ 5.301436
17 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.389155
18 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 5.535128
19 tamil_harappa @ 5.675836
20 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 5.687748

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% goan_harappa +50% karnataka_harappa @ 1.517561


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% karnataka_harappa +25% kashmiri-pahari_harappa +25% tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.265260


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.061486
2 lambadi_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.102697
3 lambadi_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.139337
4 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.147851
5 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-muslim_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.161163
6 lambadi_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.175924
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.178234
8 kashmiri-pahari_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.208663
9 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-muslim_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.210198
10 kashmiri-pahari_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.211289
11 lambadi_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-vellalar_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.249790
12 karnataka_harappa + karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.265260
13 goan_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.271049
14 goan_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sakilli_chaubey @ 1.273762
15 goan_harappa + sakilli_chaubey + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.274624
16 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + velama_metspalu @ 1.274896
17 karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.276894
18 karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.278059
19 lambadi_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + velama_reich @ 1.288450
20 kurumba_metspalu + lambadi_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.288478

Done.

Elapsed time 6.1080 seconds.

BMG
05-24-2019, 03:55 PM
here it is!
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.77
2 Baloch 36.09
3 Caucasian 5.07
4 NE-Euro 2.07
5 Mediterranean 1.56
6 NE-Asian 1.47
7 Papuan 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 2.703794
2 lambadi_metspalu @ 3.559701
3 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.766765
4 meghawal_metspalu @ 3.771550
5 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.080914
6 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.305325
7 ap-reddy_harappa @ 4.592040
8 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.716404
9 goan_harappa @ 4.716485
10 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.838844
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.970234
12 karnataka_harappa @ 4.992394
13 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.069695
14 tharu_metspalu @ 5.219707
15 tn-brahmin_xing @ 5.277253
16 up_harappa @ 5.301436
17 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.389155
18 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 5.535128
19 tamil_harappa @ 5.675836
20 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 5.687748

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% goan_harappa +50% karnataka_harappa @ 1.517561


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% karnataka_harappa +25% kashmiri-pahari_harappa +25% tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.265260


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.061486
2 lambadi_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.102697
3 lambadi_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.139337
4 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.147851
5 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-muslim_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.161163
6 lambadi_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.175924
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.178234
8 kashmiri-pahari_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.208663
9 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-muslim_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.210198
10 kashmiri-pahari_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.211289
11 lambadi_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-vellalar_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.249790
12 karnataka_harappa + karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.265260
13 goan_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + lambadi_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.271049
14 goan_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sakilli_chaubey @ 1.273762
15 goan_harappa + sakilli_chaubey + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.274624
16 gujarati-patel_harappa + kashmiri_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + velama_metspalu @ 1.274896
17 karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.276894
18 karnataka_harappa + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.278059
19 lambadi_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + velama_reich @ 1.288450
20 kurumba_metspalu + lambadi_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.288478

Done.

Elapsed time 6.1080 seconds.

The results have been as expected . I have seen two more bunt samples for which i don't have permission to post results here . One of them have similar harappa results and the another who is a jain bunt is more south shifted than this sample . I have two of my friends tested and i will post their results if they are willing to share . The bunt results are also similar to one gowda and one gounder samples i came across gedmatch . i will not post their results here .If you are interested PM me .

bmoney
05-27-2019, 02:16 AM
The results have been as expected . I have seen two more bunt samples for which i don't have permission to post results here . One of them have similar harappa results and the another who is a jain bunt is more south shifted than this sample . I have two of my friends tested and i will post their results if they are willing to share . The bunt results are also similar to one gowda and one gounder samples i came across gedmatch . i will not post their results here .If you are interested PM me .

wow that has smacked me sideways - so Bunts are basically identical to Kannada mid-castes like Gowdas?

well that certainly makes the case for a Dravidian mid-caste origin for the Nairs - as they are definitely related to the Bunts culturally

BMG could you PM me their results

vishankar
05-27-2019, 06:13 AM
wow that has smacked me sideways - so Bunts are basically identical to Kannada mid-castes like Gowdas?

well that certainly makes the case for a Dravidian mid-caste origin for the Nairs - as they are definitely related to the Bunts culturally

BMG could you PM me their results

This Bunt result has me perplexed!...the subject in question belongs to an elite Bunt family of Mangalore...he has kerala nair 8th in Harappa oracle, but what I understand from his Harappa is more genetic similarity to Vokkaligas than to nairs..culturally similiar to nairs but genetically not similar!....of course i plan to get more Bunts( slowly of course!) for testing!

vishankar
05-27-2019, 03:11 PM
here are some of the last dna results update from davidski-

nambudiri payyannur_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,76.2
Yamnaya_Samara,11
Barcin_N,5.2
Ganj_Dareh_N,4
WHG,2.2
Han,1.4

[1] "distance%=2.6079"

vaniya lady kanhangad_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,73.4
Yamnaya_Samara,9.6
Barcin_N,8
Ganj_Dareh_N,6
Jarawa,2.2
Han,0.4
WHG,0.4

[1] "distance%=2.4236"

nambiar lady payyanur_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,80.8
Yamnaya_Samara,9
Barcin_N,7.8
WHG,1.8
Han,0.6

[1] "distance%=2.8842"

nair lady badagara_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,82
Armenia_EBA,8
WHG,3
Ganj_Dareh_N,2
Barcin_N,1.4
Clovis,1.2
Levant_N,0.8
Yamnaya_Samara,0.8
Dinka,0.4
Han,0.4

vishankar
05-30-2019, 03:16 PM
thiyya male from kozhikode - harappa with oracle.


Kit Num: ZB8718132
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 55.21
2 Baloch 30.79
3 Caucasian 3.46
4 SW-Asian 2.97
5 Mediterranean 2.07
6 SE-Asian 2.01
7 Siberian 1.41
8 Papuan 1.29


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 3.503272
2 sinhalese_harappa @ 3.802676
3 tamil_harappa @ 4.278462
4 karnataka_harappa @ 4.517232
5 south-african-indian_harappa @ 4.740963
6 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 4.828378
7 tamil-nadar_harappa @ 4.900196
8 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 5.227755
9 tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 5.801742
10 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.903985
11 tharu_metspalu @ 6.258561
12 sourastrian_harappa @ 6.293498
13 lodi_reich @ 6.437100
14 kurumba_metspalu @ 6.450500
15 up-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 6.539405
16 velama_reich @ 6.553320
17 dusadh_metspalu @ 6.558280
18 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.658587
19 lambadi_metspalu @ 6.681867
20 velama_metspalu @ 6.717782

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% tamil_harappa +50% tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.852067


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% ap-mala_xing +25% brahui_hgdp +25% sakilli_chaubey @ 2.069763


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 ap-mala_xing + balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + malayan_behar @ 1.741541
2 balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + mala_reich + malayan_behar @ 1.772138
3 cochin-jew_behar + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.888309
4 ap-mala_xing + brahui_hgdp + malayan_behar + velama_metspalu @ 1.908897
5 brahui_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + madiga_reich + paniya_chaubey @ 1.936914
6 cochin-jew_behar + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.937255
7 brahui_hgdp + mala_reich + malayan_behar + velama_metspalu @ 1.941179
8 ap-mala_xing + brahui_hgdp + kurumba_reich + sakilli_chaubey @ 1.949892
9 cochin-jew_behar + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.951162
10 cochin-jew_behar + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.960385
11 cochin-jew_behar + naidu_reich + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.964031
12 balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + malayan_behar + tn-dalit_xing @ 1.964061
13 brahui_hgdp + kurumba_metspalu + madiga_reich + malayan_behar @ 1.973397
14 cochin-jew_behar + naidu_reich + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.980663
15 cochin-jew_behar + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.981901
16 brahui_hgdp + madiga_reich + malayan_behar + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.984337
17 brahui_hgdp + chamar_metspalu + malayan_behar + vysya_reich @ 1.985910
18 cochin-jew_behar + dusadh_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.991668
19 cochin-jew_behar + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.992072
20 brahui_hgdp + malayan_behar + sakilli_chaubey + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.994063

Done.

Elapsed time 7.9328 seconds.

vishankar
05-30-2019, 03:28 PM
nambuthiri male- from taliparamba ( malliseri illam)
Kit Num: HX5673827
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.42
2 Baloch 37.25
3 Caucasian 8.26
4 NE-Euro 6.89
5 SE-Asian 1.37


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 meghawal_reich @ 4.011538
2 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.289030
3 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.312746
4 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 4.497970
5 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 4.721113
6 tn-brahmin_xing @ 4.752687
7 gujarati_harappa @ 4.985986
8 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 5.127223
9 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.408474
10 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 5.606068
11 goan_harappa @ 5.796714
12 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.836341
13 rajasthani_harappa @ 6.200136
14 vaish_reich @ 6.250638
15 meena_metspalu @ 6.633925
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu @ 6.874615
17 ap-brahmin_xing @ 6.936018
18 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 7.132016
19 kerala-nair_harappa @ 7.161299
20 bengali-brahmin_harappa @ 7.290336

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% pathan_hgdp +50% vysya_reich @ 2.298681


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-b_hapmap +25% kalash_hgdp +25% sakilli_chaubey @ 1.803539


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++
1 kalash_hgdp + rajasthani-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.654170
2 kalash_hgdp + rajasthani-brahmin_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.690260
3 kalash_hgdp + lodi_reich + punjabi-brahmin_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.721435
4 gujarati-b_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + srivastava_reich + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.729702
5 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.757979
6 kalash_hgdp + rajasthani-brahmin_harappa + velama_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.761415
7 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu + brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + vysya_reich @ 1.771244
8 kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + singapore-indian-b_sgvp + srivastava_reich @ 1.775162
9 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + srivastava_reich + velama_metspalu @ 1.775785
10 kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-b_sgvp + up-brahmin_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.778954
11 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + goan_harappa + kalash_hgdp + vysya_reich @ 1.780687
12 kalash_hgdp + lodi_reich + up-brahmin_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.789541
13 gujarati-b_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + sakilli_chaubey @ 1.803539
14 kalash_hgdp + rajasthani-brahmin_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.817461
15 kalash_hgdp + lodi_reich + singapore-indian-c_sgvp + vysya_reich @ 1.820776
16 goan_harappa + kalash_hgdp + srivastava_reich + tharu_metspalu @ 1.828214
17 kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.828479
18 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + srivastava_reich + velama_reich @ 1.835739
19 kalash_hgdp + lodi_reich + up-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.837866
20 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-b_sgvp + vysya_reich @ 1.846707

Done.

Elapsed time 6.4052 seconds.

vishankar
05-30-2019, 03:42 PM
payyanur poduval male from payyanur-

Kit Num: UX1414608
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.71
2 Baloch 35.16
3 Caucasian 8.84
4 NE-Euro 4.86
5 Siberian 2.28
6 SW-Asian 1.35


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.231820
2 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.349312
3 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.376000
4 tn-brahmin_xing @ 4.844989
5 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.895466
6 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.072596
7 meghawal_reich @ 5.292083
8 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.537409
9 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.639026
10 goan_harappa @ 5.852848
11 kerala_harappa @ 5.930327
12 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 6.040182
13 ap-brahmin_xing @ 6.383587
14 gujarati_harappa @ 6.475783
15 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 6.700120
16 kerala-nair_harappa @ 6.746670
17 up_harappa @ 6.784593
18 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 6.952671
19 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 7.299744
20 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 7.364900

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% kashmiri-pandit_reich +50% kurumba_metspalu @ 2.392878


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% sindhi_harappa +25% tn-dalit_xing +25% velama_reich @ 2.064693


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + tn-dalit_xing + vysya_reich @ 1.920507
2 kashmiri-pandit_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.936781
3 kashmiri-pandit_reich + pathan_hgdp + tn-dalit_xing + velama_reich @ 2.011697
4 kalash_hgdp + mala_reich + sindhi_harappa + vysya_reich @ 2.062953
5 sindhi_harappa + sindhi_harappa + tn-dalit_xing + velama_reich @ 2.064693
6 ap-madiga_xing + kashmiri-pandit_reich + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.078076
7 ap-hyderabad_harappa + ap-hyderabad_harappa + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich @ 2.082014
8 kashmiri-pandit_reich + mala_reich + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.087948
9 mala_reich + sindhi_harappa + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.098202
10 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + sindhi_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.100996
11 kalash_hgdp + kashmiri-pandit_reich + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + vysya_reich @ 2.101356
12 ap-hyderabad_harappa + pathan_hgdp + sourastrian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.103828
13 kashmiri-pandit_reich + sindhi_harappa + tn-dalit_xing + velama_reich @ 2.107286
14 ap-hyderabad_harappa + ap-hyderabad_harappa + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.115751
15 kalash_hgdp + kashmiri-pahari_harappa + mala_reich + velama_reich @ 2.121010
16 hakkipikki_metspalu + kashmiri-pandit_reich + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.128064
17 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu + kalash_hgdp + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.129602
18 kashmiri-pandit_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.140150
19 kashmiri-pandit_reich + pathan_hgdp + tn-dalit_xing + velama_metspalu @ 2.144023
20 kashmiri-pandit_reich + punjabi-khatri_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.144130

Done.

Elapsed time 8.8290 seconds.

vishankar
05-30-2019, 03:44 PM
the more i see this the more I am convinced that we Indians( malayalis included) are a set of diverse populations which live side by side without much mixing!

BMG
05-30-2019, 03:58 PM
thiyya male from kozhikode - harappa with oracle.


Kit Num: ZB8718132
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 55.21
2 Baloch 30.79
3 Caucasian 3.46
4 SW-Asian 2.97
5 Mediterranean 2.07
6 SE-Asian 2.01
7 Siberian 1.41
8 Papuan 1.29


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 3.503272
2 sinhalese_harappa @ 3.802676
3 tamil_harappa @ 4.278462
4 karnataka_harappa @ 4.517232
5 south-african-indian_harappa @ 4.740963
6 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 4.828378
7 tamil-nadar_harappa @ 4.900196
8 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 5.227755
9 tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 5.801742
10 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.903985
11 tharu_metspalu @ 6.258561
12 sourastrian_harappa @ 6.293498
13 lodi_reich @ 6.437100
14 kurumba_metspalu @ 6.450500
15 up-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 6.539405
16 velama_reich @ 6.553320
17 dusadh_metspalu @ 6.558280
18 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.658587
19 lambadi_metspalu @ 6.681867
20 velama_metspalu @ 6.717782

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% tamil_harappa +50% tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.852067


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% ap-mala_xing +25% brahui_hgdp +25% sakilli_chaubey @ 2.069763


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 ap-mala_xing + balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + malayan_behar @ 1.741541
2 balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + mala_reich + malayan_behar @ 1.772138
3 cochin-jew_behar + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.888309
4 ap-mala_xing + brahui_hgdp + malayan_behar + velama_metspalu @ 1.908897
5 brahui_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + madiga_reich + paniya_chaubey @ 1.936914
6 cochin-jew_behar + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.937255
7 brahui_hgdp + mala_reich + malayan_behar + velama_metspalu @ 1.941179
8 ap-mala_xing + brahui_hgdp + kurumba_reich + sakilli_chaubey @ 1.949892
9 cochin-jew_behar + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.951162
10 cochin-jew_behar + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.960385
11 cochin-jew_behar + naidu_reich + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.964031
12 balochi_hgdp + gujarati-patel_harappa + malayan_behar + tn-dalit_xing @ 1.964061
13 brahui_hgdp + kurumba_metspalu + madiga_reich + malayan_behar @ 1.973397
14 cochin-jew_behar + naidu_reich + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.980663
15 cochin-jew_behar + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.981901
16 brahui_hgdp + madiga_reich + malayan_behar + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.984337
17 brahui_hgdp + chamar_metspalu + malayan_behar + vysya_reich @ 1.985910
18 cochin-jew_behar + dusadh_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.991668
19 cochin-jew_behar + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + south-african-indian_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.992072
20 brahui_hgdp + malayan_behar + sakilli_chaubey + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.994063

Done.

Elapsed time 7.9328 seconds.

This thiyya is similar to the ezhava results I have posted earlier in the thread . But i am surprised a bit though . I think they will have more varied results if many gets tested .

BMG
05-30-2019, 04:18 PM
the more i see this the more I am convinced that we Indians( malayalis included) are a set of diverse populations which live side by side without much mixing!

I agree with you . This fucked up caste system has deep roots it seems .

How are you able to encourage people to take the test . I had a hard time convincing my relatives .

And by the way many of your samples are showing as matches to each other in gedmatch . Are they your relatives ? Is the Kodoth one your kits .He is one of the least South Indian Nair kit . I have only seen one palakkad nair have less South Indian than him .

vishankar
05-30-2019, 04:46 PM
I agree with you . This fucked up caste system has deep roots it seems .

How are you able to encourage people to take the test . I had a hard time convincing my relatives .

And by the way many of your samples are showing as matches to each other in gedmatch . Are they your relatives ? Is the Kodoth one your kits .He is one of the least South Indian Nair kit . I have only seen one palakkad nair have less South Indian than him .

hi....i have not put a surname kodoth in any of my kits, most are my wifes relatives i.e nambiars and poduvals, one wyanad nair ( who is also a nambiar)!...need to get some nairs from elesewhere too ;)
A s a doctor i have some privileges lol...as long as they are not footing the bill, they are ready to get their cheeks scraped!!!!
by the way there is on trivandrum nair lady in my dataset....harappa shows her to more or less like other nairs...but more on that when i get her g25 coordinates

vishankar
05-30-2019, 04:47 PM
I agree with you . This fucked up caste system has deep roots it seems .

How are you able to encourage people to take the test . I had a hard time convincing my relatives .

And by the way many of your samples are showing as matches to each other in gedmatch . Are they your relatives ? Is the Kodoth one your kits .He is one of the least South Indian Nair kit . I have only seen one palakkad nair have less South Indian than him .

dear BMG could you pm me that kodoth kit gedmatch number>>>???

BMG
05-30-2019, 05:13 PM
hi....i have not put a surname kodoth in any of my kits, most are my wifes relatives i.e nambiars and poduvals, one wyanad nair ( who is also a nambiar)!...need to get some nairs from elesewhere too ;)
A s a doctor i have some privileges lol...as long as they are not footing the bill, they are ready to get their cheeks scraped!!!!
by the way there is on trivandrum nair lady in my dataset....harappa shows her to more or less like other nairs...but more on that when i get her g25 coordinates
So you are paying for the tests . I can't do that lol . I already have few relatives tested with my funds and have convinced a few to order on their own

vishankar
05-30-2019, 05:16 PM
So you are paying for the tests . I can't do that lol . I already have few relatives tested with my funds and have convinced a few to order on their own

ha ha ...i am getting some grants too...so not much burden!!!!

vishankar
05-30-2019, 08:14 PM
This thiyya is similar to the ezhava results I have posted earlier in the thread . But i am surprised a bit though . I think they will have more varied results if many gets tested .

perhaps....my take is that the the northern thiyyas will be somewhat similar to nairs( only a hypothesis)...of course the two results i have had do not show that!
this is just on assumption going by phenotype, staying in malabar my observation is that the thiyyas phenotypically can look similar to nairs,generally however they tend to be darker and shorter( only minutely of course!)....this assumption of mine trying to correlate genes and phenotype was shattered to smithereens by the report of my bunt friend....i had expected a high steppe component and low ASI in him , but that does not seem to be the case!
my take on this is that genes for skin, eye ,hair colour express themselves randomly,possibly based on climate and isolated mutations....i stand corrected by other knowledgeables on this forum...

Thomas48
05-31-2019, 08:27 PM
Got a new Knanaya sample:

FTDNA:
South/Central Asian: 70%
Central Asia: 19%
Middle Eastern (Asia Minor): 10%

Harappa:
Population
S-Indian 44.74 Pct
Baloch 34.26 Pct
Caucasian 11.63 Pct
NE-Euro 2.13 Pct
SE-Asian 3.81 Pct
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.40 Pct
American 0.28 Pct
Beringian 0.71 Pct
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 2.03 Pct
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

vishankar
06-05-2019, 04:27 PM
a big thanks to poi for continously adding coordinates despite his busy schedule!!!