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vishankar
06-05-2019, 04:28 PM
here is the latest run on the updated kerala list, thanks to bmoney too who was very generous with funding!30792

vishankar
06-05-2019, 05:28 PM
these results should be interpreted with caution a s there is only 1 sample each of the the thiyya and the vaniya....as BMG remarked earlier the thiyyas may be expected to show some genetic variability,given their number and history, but my hunch is the north malabar vaniya may not deviate much from the sample available!

Rustyshakelford
06-05-2019, 06:03 PM
Vaniya seems to be closest to the nambudiri based on Checkfits. Is there a history of sambandam there? I would imagine nambudiri to be most distant from all of us.

vishankar
06-05-2019, 07:52 PM
Vaniya seems to be closest to the nambudiri based on Checkfits. Is there a history of sambandam there? I would imagine nambudiri to be most distant from all of us.

i dare not ask ha ha ha!!!!.....But i dont think so!....

my grouping would go thus-

1) Knanaya- in my opinion is different from the others-

then Nambudiris who may have some similarity with nairs based on sambandham, who in turn may have similarities with syrian christians based on the nasrani history of conversion from nair/nambudiri groups.
the thiyyas form a different group- probably the original proto dravidian + AASI mix, with very little or nil steppe input.
the vaniya, i feel is a group with history of migration from the north in proto historic times, hence the steppe component,( of course i am planning to get more vaniya samples)
In the book" Nayars of Malabar- Fred Fawcett, it is mentioned that the Chakkala Nair( Vaniya of today) had no sambandham with Nambuthiris.
Fawcett was a police official stationed in Malabar, so he should have known!

scobar
06-05-2019, 10:25 PM
here is the latest run on the updated kerala list, thanks to bmoney too who was very generous with funding!30792

Submitting Kerala_Mappila set of 1 sample..though these runs seem..off? Compared to what you posted, my fit is much better than the averages, plus I believe it's scoring lower iran-n & higher steppe than the last run bmoney posted? I used unscaled, free-tier..so the reference groups use nmonte3-behavior, which means it must be picking some individuals and not average of the group I suppose. The v2 are my G25 co-ordinates based on Ancestry V2 raw data, which has been giving me better fits across GedMatch calcs and G25 ancients/moderns models fyi.

30808
30809

bmoney
06-06-2019, 02:54 AM
I suggest a few things re nmonte - dont run averages, run individuals as there isnt that much scale in Kerala users yet and averages behave funny in checkfits

Sintashta should be dropped given Paniyas score it too and it barely differs among us - it seems to be adding non-steppe ANE

Run using default pen as Huijbrecht suggested, i can run the required loops using my tier 5 membership tonight to get more accurate runs

Maybe something realistic for reference samples like:

Srubnaya_MLBA (similar to an Indo-Aryan vector as Turkeminstan IA was modelled half Srubnaya half Namazga by Davidski)

Namazga (as per Damgaard) We observe that although South Asian Dravidian speakers can be modeled as a mixture of Onge and Namazga_CA, an additional source related to Late Bronze Age steppe groups is required for IE speakers - this will mop up the ancient ANE too hopefully

Onge (as per Damgaard) We observe that although South Asian Dravidian speakers can be modeled as a mixture of Onge and Namazga_CA, an additional source related to Late Bronze Age steppe groups is required for IE speakers - we dont have issues like Bengali and Oriya users where actual SE Asian is inflating Onge (as Onge also has significant SE Asian ancestry)

ME source for Knanaya and some Syrian Christians - has to be modern - Rusty, Thomas48 what is the modern ME pop that corresponds historically which gives Knanaya the lowest fit? use this

Mappila foreign ancestry modern pop for scobar who definitely has ME ancestry - have no idea, maybe you guys can suggest if different to the above pop?

Rustyshakelford
06-06-2019, 03:23 AM
ME source for Knanaya and some Syrian Christians - has to be modern - Rusty, Thomas48 what is the modern ME pop that corresponds historically which gives Knanaya the lowest fit? use this

Mappila foreign ancestry modern pop for scobar who definitely has ME ancestry - have no idea, maybe you guys can suggest if different to the above pop?

Iraq Jew/Assyrian gets the best fits and makes most sense historically for Knanaya and Syrian Christians. I would guess scobars would be a bit different. His ME is probably Arabian/Yemeni related which makes sense since Kerala mapillas unlike other Indian Muslims belong primarily to the shafi madhab which is more connected with those areas. I feel like scobars ME admix is more recent since it’s actually detected on 23andme unlike ours.

scobar
06-06-2019, 05:05 AM
Iraq Jew/Assyrian gets the best fits and makes most sense historically for Knanaya and Syrian Christians. I would guess scobars would be a bit different. His ME is probably Arabian/Yemeni related which makes sense since Kerala mapillas unlike other Indian Muslims belong primarily to the shafi madhab which is more connected with those areas. I feel like scobars ME admix is more recent since it’s actually detected on 23andme unlike ours.

Are we talking about mixing modern and ancient pops for this model?

scobar
06-06-2019, 05:12 AM
Also if you've had a chance to see it, what did you guys think of the updated model/datasheet posted on this thread?

Datasheet & spreadsheet - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16787-Sorcelow-Ancient-K18-Calculator&p=571177&viewfull=1#post571177

My results - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16787-Sorcelow-Ancient-K18-Calculator&p=571777#post571777

Rustyshakelford
06-06-2019, 05:44 AM
Are we talking about mixing modern and ancient pops for this model?

Moderns, since we don’t have ancients from that region.

bmoney
06-06-2019, 06:39 AM
Moderns, since we don’t have ancients from that region.

yep, a mix also because the middle-east migrations were moderish pops, not iron age or earlier like steppe namazga and onge (proxy for AASI)

using ancients to represent Mappila migrations will bleed components into each other and you wont be able to get a good proxy

this will also happen in the modern/ancient mix but less so

bmoney
06-06-2019, 06:50 AM
Also if you've had a chance to see it, what did you guys think of the updated model/datasheet posted on this thread?

Datasheet & spreadsheet - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16787-Sorcelow-Ancient-K18-Calculator&p=571177&viewfull=1#post571177

My results - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16787-Sorcelow-Ancient-K18-Calculator&p=571777#post571777

yeah not bad, an ancients view - although steppe is a category too broad for South Asians who broadly lack Yamna (damgaard) and instead have late MLBA steppe Indo-Aryan ancestry (not all South Asians) as well as old school AASI related MA-1 ANE that might inflate the steppe

Actually now that i think about it, i would add MA-1 to my previous proposed model as DMXX showed it present in AASI and AASI dominant tribals IIRC bringing down the fit compared to Sintashta

vishankar
06-06-2019, 09:32 AM
Submitting Kerala_Mappila set of 1 sample..though these runs seem..off? Compared to what you posted, my fit is much better than the averages, plus I believe it's scoring lower iran-n & higher steppe than the last run bmoney posted? I used unscaled, free-tier..so the reference groups use nmonte3-behavior, which means it must be picking some individuals and not average of the group I suppose. The v2 are my G25 co-ordinates based on Ancestry V2 raw data, which has been giving me better fits across GedMatch calcs and G25 ancients/moderns models fyi.

30808
30809

thanks...i was trying to locate your coordinates!..thanks again!...hoping to get some mapilla samples from malappuram from my students!

bmoney
06-06-2019, 01:00 PM
ok so a lot of damn tinkering and using checkfits to extrapolate realistic sources, while trying to line up with papers - god damn my evening is gone now

things im not sure about is how realistic Iran_Hotu mesolithic is as a source for South Asians - i used it here as a bucket for excess Iran_N, and whether these samples really universally score Srubna in such unexpectedly high levels

and i still couldnt kill Paniya Srubna using MA-1 - so it seems legit

Anyway, Assyrian and Iraq Jew was getting scored by everyone so I had to separate the runs - first for Hindu samples using the Nambudiri sample checkfit to search for realistic source pops

Fits are pretty good considering were purely using MLBA and earlier samples

EDIT: removed Iran_Hotu as Iran_N was varying unrealistically between it and Namazga among similar samples

https://i.imgur.com/M6cSMg5.png

bmoney
06-06-2019, 01:43 PM
Couldnt really separate the Kna and the Syrian Christians we have, though overall the Kna prefer more Assyrian and less Srubna

https://i.imgur.com/i3Lawrs.png

aaronbee2010
06-06-2019, 03:14 PM
yeah not bad, an ancients view - although steppe is a category too broad for South Asians who broadly lack Yamna (damgaard) and instead have late MLBA steppe Indo-Aryan ancestry (not all South Asians) as well as old school AASI related MA-1 ANE that might inflate the steppe

Actually now that i think about it, i would add MA-1 to my previous proposed model as DMXX showed it present in AASI and AASI dominant tribals IIRC bringing down the fit compared to Sintashta

I believe ANE (i.e. MA1) is also present in the Iran_N component too.

I don't have a lot of proof of this, but Iran_N was dominated by R2a (which was the result of basal R2 migrants from around North Afghanistan migrating there). These North Afghani men likely descended from a broad area west of where MA1 was found (that area at the time would've likely contained R(xR1)).

What are your thoughts on my theory?

agent_lime
06-06-2019, 07:18 PM
Couldnt really separate the Kna and the Syrian Christians we have, though overall the Kna prefer more Assyrian and less Srubna

https://i.imgur.com/i3Lawrs.png

Can you try with Levant_Canaanite_MBA_Averaged and Iraqi Jew? I want to see if it will improve fits.

scobar
06-06-2019, 08:22 PM
yep, a mix also because the middle-east migrations were moderish pops, not iron age or earlier like steppe namazga and onge (proxy for AASI)

using ancients to represent Mappila migrations will bleed components into each other and you wont be able to get a good proxy

this will also happen in the modern/ancient mix but less so

A model based on Modern + ancients tends to favor/overfit on the modern component in the population from what I've seen.

pnb123
06-06-2019, 08:31 PM
I believe ANE (i.e. MA1) is also present in the Iran_N component too.

I don't have a lot of proof of this, but Iran_N was dominated by R2a (which was the result of basal R2 migrants from around North Afghanistan migrating there). These North Afghani men likely descended from a broad area west of where MA1 was found (that area at the time would've likely contained R(xR1)).

What are your thoughts on my theory?
I kinda of agree with you. Some of the Iran_N type admix seen in South Asians could be because of earlier Central Asian migrations as well. I think this also explains why tribals are scoring noticeable amounts of Iran_N? I think there was a wave of immigrants that descended south from Siberia and contributed to South Central Asians and also to basal rich groups in West Asia (like CHG and Iran_N). However it’s interesting that ANF doesn’t score any ANE. ANF is likely derived from Dzudzuana cave types, and they lived very close to where they found CHG samples as well. They were dated to 1000 years before CHG, yet don’t show any trace of ANE. This was published in Dzudzuana paper.

aaronbee2010
06-06-2019, 08:37 PM
I kinda of agree with you. Some of the Iran_N type admix seen in South Asians could be because of earlier Central Asian migrations as well. I think this also explains why tribals are scoring noticeable amounts of Iran_N? I think there was a wave of immigrants that descended south from Siberia and contributed to South Central Asians and also to basal rich groups in West Asia (like CHG and Iran_N). However it’s interesting that ANF doesn’t score any ANE. ANF is likely derived from Dzudzuana cave types, and they lived very close to where they found CHG samples as well. They were dated to 1000 years before CHG, yet don’t show any trace of ANE. This was published in Dzudzuana paper.

Iran_N itself most likely originated from farmers migrating from South/Central Asia, who themselves were descended from people who were from South of Siberia (broadly).

pnb123
06-06-2019, 08:45 PM
Iran_N itself most likely originated from farmers migrating from South/Central Asia, who themselves were descended from people who were from South of Siberia (broadly).
Yeah but there’s also the basal Eurasian component to Iran_N, which is shared by other farmers as well. So probably high ANE Siberian types mixing with basal Eurasians who possibly lived in Middle East makes more sense. Kostenki 14 also had some kind of basal input to it despite being very ancient. So I guess they probably lived unmixed before farming culture and contributed to both Anatolian Neolithic Farmers and Iranian Neolithic Farmers, but are not found in pure form anymore.

pnb123
06-06-2019, 08:57 PM
......

aaronbee2010
06-06-2019, 09:01 PM
Yeah but there’s also the basal Eurasian component to Iran_N, which is shared by other farmers as well. So probably high ANE Siberian types mixing with basal Eurasians who possibly lived in Middle East makes more sense. Kostenki 14 also had some kind of basal input to it despite being very ancient. So I guess they probably lived unmixed before farming culture and contributed to both Anatolian Neolithic Farmers and Iranian Neolithic Farmers, but are not found in pure form anymore.

I'm not saying Iran_N farmers are 100% ANE. I'm just saying they had some ANE. G2a1a was found in one Iran_N sample, which suggests that there mixing between the ANE-rich South/Central migrants and the basal Eurasian locals.

bmoney
06-07-2019, 12:43 AM
I believe ANE (i.e. MA1) is also present in the Iran_N component too.

I don't have a lot of proof of this, but Iran_N was dominated by R2a (which was the result of basal R2 migrants from around North Afghanistan migrating there). These North Afghani men likely descended from a broad area west of where MA1 was found (that area at the time would've likely contained R(xR1)).

What are your thoughts on my theory?

this is correct, but ancient pseudo MA-1 was also present in AASI which is what i was trying to isolate

Gonur2 in that nmonte should mop up all the Iran N but i could be wrong

bmoney
06-07-2019, 12:48 AM
I kinda of agree with you. Some of the Iran_N type admix seen in South Asians could be because of earlier Central Asian migrations as well. I think this also explains why tribals are scoring noticeable amounts of Iran_N? I think there was a wave of immigrants that descended south from Siberia and contributed to South Central Asians and also to basal rich groups in West Asia (like CHG and Iran_N). However it’s interesting that ANF doesn’t score any ANE. ANF is likely derived from Dzudzuana cave types, and they lived very close to where they found CHG samples as well. They were dated to 1000 years before CHG, yet don’t show any trace of ANE. This was published in Dzudzuana paper.

actually its the other way, tribals score more ANE than their low Iran_N levels suggest, (40% x Iran_N/Ganj Dareh) which i will say again for the 1000th time

yes Iran_N was 40% ANE, but the Namazga/Gonur2 component would capture that

MA-1 affinity in excess of Iran_N exists in the Paniya, which you can see either in the MA-1 component or Srubna and their low Gonur component in contrast (which also has ANE btw)

Its highly likely ANE entered South Asia before Iran_N did even if the bulk did come from Iran_N and Steppe

Yep Dzudzuana has no ANE IIRC

bmoney
06-07-2019, 12:53 AM
Iran_N itself most likely originated from farmers migrating from South/Central Asia, who themselves were descended from people who were from South of Siberia (broadly).

Not sure who brought the farming, the Dzu component or ANE mammoth hunters who traditionally did not farm but yes R2 is an ANE related hap found in Ganj Dareh

J2 would be the Dzu contribution y-dna wise

All the SIS samples were J2a though, so not 100% sure if all R2 in South Asia came via Iran_N

bmoney
06-07-2019, 01:15 AM
@vishankar could you do y and mtdna tests on your male Nair and Nambudiri kits please

and mtdna on the females

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 01:19 AM
Not sure who brought the farming, the Dzu component or ANE mammoth hunters who traditionally did not farm but yes R2 is an ANE related hap found in Ganj Dareh

J2 would be the Dzu contribution y-dna wise

All the SIS samples were J2a though, so not 100% sure if all R2 in South Asia came via Iran_N

All R2a most likely came directly from West Iran, most likely with J2b. These migrations probably came before J2a (which appears to have entered S/SC Asia afterwards) did?

bmoney
06-07-2019, 01:24 AM
All R2a most likely came directly from West Iran, most likely with J2b. These migrations probably came before J2a (which appears to have entered S/SC Asia afterwards) did?

That is disproved by the fact that Paniya score higher ANE than their Iran N levels - they are roughly 25% Iran N which should mean 10% ANE if their ANE source was purely Iran_N

Instead they are nearly double that ANE - check the Davidski Basak K sheet on Eurogenes as i cant download google drive files at work

So obviously - aside from IE steppe which might be legit, there is something more ancient and ANE related which DMXX detected using MA-1 which exists in South Asia. Even in the AASI component itself

Its not just the Paniya, all South Asians are relatively higher ANE than their Iran_N levels would suggest - look at the excess MA-1 everyone scored on the run aside from Gonur, which is already a WSHG shifted version of Iran_N

So the y-dna from that excess ANE has to be R related or maybe P or earlier if R2 was strictly Iran N

EDIT: i just checked, P1 is almost nonexistent in South Asia, so the earlier ANE must have be R2 as there is no other candidate

Chad Rohlfsen
06-07-2019, 01:31 AM
Iran has excess ENA not covered by ANE. That's probably causing the issue. Iran is essentially ANE, ENA, and BE.

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 01:32 AM
That is disproved by the fact that Paniya score higher ANE than their Iran N levels - they are roughly 25% Iran N which should mean 10% ANE if their ANE source was purely Iran_N

Instead they are nearly double that ANE - check the Davidski Basak K sheet on Eurogenes as i cant download google drive files at work

So obviously - aside from IE steppe which might be legit, there is something more ancient and ANE related which DMXX detected using MA-1 which exists in South Asia. Even in the AASI component itself

Its not just the Paniya, all South Asians are relatively higher ANE than their Iran_N levels would suggest - look at the excess MA-1 everyone scored on the run aside from Gonur, which is already a WSHG shifted version of Iran_N

So the y-dna from that excess ANE has to be R related or maybe P or earlier if R2 was strictly Iran N

R2a most likely originated in or near the Zagros region, so it's extremely unlikely that there were any waves of R2a into South Asia before the Iran_N wave we're familiar with.

All I said a few posts back was that some ANE would've been present in Iran_N. I never said anywhere that this was the only non-IE source of ANE in South Asia. There could've been another source of ANE somewhere - possibly within AASI as you've said.

bmoney
06-07-2019, 01:34 AM
Iran has excess ENA not covered by ANE. That's probably causing the issue. Iran is essentially ANE, ENA, and BE.

Thats true but that would make the mismatch between Paniya ANE levels and ANE sourced via Iran_N even greater

You're saying you don't detect any ANE affinity outside Iran_N/Steppe in South Asia in your models?

bmoney
06-07-2019, 01:37 AM
R2a most likely originated in or near the Zagros region, so it's extremely unlikely that there were any waves of R2a into South Asia before the Iran_N wave we're familiar with.

All I said a few posts back was that some ANE would've been present in Iran_N. I never said anywhere that this was the only non-IE source of ANE in South Asia. There could've been another source of ANE somewhere - possibly within AASI as you've said.

I get what youre saying but let me break down what im saying

so it's extremely unlikely that there were any waves of R2a into South Asia before the Iran_N wave we're familiar with.

My question to you is, what did this excess ANE have as a y-lineage? it couldnt have been P1 as it basically is nonexistent in South Asia and neither is basal R in South Asia or the world

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 01:52 AM
I get what youre saying but let me break down what im saying

so it's extremely unlikely that there were any waves of R2a into South Asia before the Iran_N wave we're familiar with.

My question to you is, what did this excess ANE have as a y-lineage? it couldnt have been P1 as it basically is nonexistent in South Asia and neither is basal R in South Asia or the world

That's a really difficult question - I don't know for sure!

It's most likely true that ANE in South Asia predates R2 but before that time, the Y-DNA in South Asia would've only consisted of a few groups (C, H (including subclades previously classed as F*), K2a - let me know what other groups may have been there - I don't think O was in South Asia at this time but I could be wrong) at the time. Would it be reasonable to consider mtDNA here as well?

This will be quite a fun guessing game we're about to have xD

bmoney
06-07-2019, 01:56 AM
Iran has excess ENA not covered by ANE. That's probably causing the issue. Iran is essentially ANE, ENA, and BE.

out of curiosity, how much is their ENA level in your best fit model?

looking at the paper with the original result, this is all i could find

We compared GD13a with a number of other ancient genomes and modern populations6,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,2 7, using principal component analysis (PCA)28, ADMIXTURE29 and outgroup f3 statistics30 (Fig. 1). GD13a did not cluster with any other early Neolithic individual from Eurasia in any of the analyses. ADMIXTURE and outgroup f3 statistics identified Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers of Western Georgia, just north of the Zagros mountains, as the group genetically most similar to GD13a (Fig. 1B,C), whilst PCA also revealed some affinity with modern Central South Asian populations such as Balochi, Makrani and Brahui (Fig. 1A and Fig. S4). Also genetically close to GD13a were ancient samples from Steppe populations (Yamanya & Afanasievo) that were part of one or more Bronze age migrations into Europe, as well as early Bronze age cultures in that continent (Corded Ware)16,21, in line with previous relationships observed for the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers24.

bmoney
06-07-2019, 02:05 AM
That's a really difficult question - I don't know for sure!

It's most likely true that ANE in South Asia predates R2 but before that time, the Y-DNA in South Asia would've only consisted of a few groups (C, H (including subclades previously classed as F*), K2a - let me know what other groups may have been there - I don't think O was in South Asia at this time but I could be wrong) at the time. Would it be reasonable to consider mtDNA here as well?

This will be quite a fun guessing game we're about to have xD

tbh Arronbee, if i was betting man there is no contender outside R2 - the gap between R2 and its predecessors in age is huge and theres no geographical trail in South Asia

I reckon more R2a study would solve that to find subclades and lineage splits etc

For mtdna, which i show barely anything about, someone mentioned some U subclades that were quite old I think it was Pegasus

pnb123
06-07-2019, 02:10 AM
Not sure who brought the farming, the Dzu component or ANE mammoth hunters who traditionally did not farm but yes R2 is an ANE related hap found in Ganj Dareh

J2 would be the Dzu contribution y-dna wise

All the SIS samples were J2a though, so not 100% sure if all R2 in South Asia came via Iran_N
It started with Nautifians, but large scale farming was first done by Neolithic Anatolians and Neolithic Iranians. Nautifians were basically 75% Dzudzuana like + 25% Ancient North African (Iberomaurusian). Farming definitely did not start in Central Asia, but the haplogroup R2 associated with Iran_N most likely migrated from South Central Asia to Middle East and maybe also to South Asia. South Asia also got it later via neolithic migration.

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 02:23 AM
tbh Arronbee, if i was betting man there is no contender outside R2 - the gap between R2 and its predecessors in age is huge and theres no geographical trail in South Asia

I reckon more R2a study would solve that to find subclades and lineage splits etc

For mtdna, which i show barely anything about, someone mentioned some U subclades that were quite old I think it was Pegasus

Most South Asian R2a comes either under R2a2a-FGC13203 or R2a2b1b-Y8766. R2-FGC13203 in South Asia seems to be tied to the BMAC, so I would rule that out entirely.

R2-Y8766 can be sorted into its branches - R2-Y5080, R2-SK2142, R2-L295 and R2-Y26630.

The vast majority of R2-Y8766 comes under R2-L295, which appears to have entered no earlier than the Iran_N wave with J-Z2432 according to TMRCA estimates. R2-Y26630 most likely entered with R2-L295.

R2-Y5080 also appears to be linked to R2-L295 but I need more samples of this subclade before I can say anything with confidence.

R2-SK2142 (my subclade) has caused me no end of trouble trying to figure it out. There appear to be multiple waves of it that came during and after the first L295-rich wave, but not before.

Even if there was an older wave of R2a, I don't think any branch of R2a associated with this hypothetical older wave would've entered South Asia in high enough numbers to account for the excess (non-IE and non-Iran_N) ANE seen in South Asia. It's no secret that R2 is generally rare globally.

More study on R2 as a whole would be really good, as no scientific paper solely dedicated to R2 currently exists yet :( maybe more study could give you your answer but I don't think it's likely.

Funny you mention U, I was thinking that U2i was a good candidate perhaps?

This really is a mystery.

bmoney
06-07-2019, 02:34 AM
^ yes good point, we cant discount y-lineages that have gone extinct given how y-dominated the Iran_N and Steppe waves were

But yes a full deep y and mtdna study on tribes like the Paniya, Nihali, North Kannadi etc might turn something up

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 02:52 AM
I don't think I mentioned extinct Y-DNA but now that you mention it that's a good point!

The only problem I can think of is, what lineage could've been prevalent enough in South Asia to increase ANE levels this much, then be driven to extinction? A real Scooby Doo mystery right here.

As you've said, a direct study on Paniyas (and others) may answer this question.

Chad Rohlfsen
06-07-2019, 03:00 AM
Thats true but that would make the mismatch between Paniya ANE levels and ANE sourced via Iran_N even greater

You're saying you don't detect any ANE affinity outside Iran_N/Steppe in South Asia in your models?

I've had good luck adding additional ANE to Dravidians. It's definitely there. We see it in the Eneolithic and BA farmers around there too.

You can see models on my blog. I think the one on Pinharbasi has some deep modeling.

parasar
06-07-2019, 03:13 AM
I get what youre saying but let me break down what im saying

so it's extremely unlikely that there were any waves of R2a into South Asia before the Iran_N wave we're familiar with.

My question to you is, what did this excess ANE have as a y-lineage? it couldnt have been P1 as it basically is nonexistent in South Asia and neither is basal R in South Asia or the world

P M45 xM207 xM242 is absent almost everywhere.

But it is present in TN who also have M207 xR1xR2a (likely some type of R2). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44

That would explain how early ANE shows up.

thejkhan
06-07-2019, 03:18 AM
P M45 xM207 xM242 is absent almost everywhere.

But it is present in TN who also have M207 xR1xR2a (likely some type of R2). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44

That would explain how early ANE shows up.

In the table you will see some Q among the lower castes and hill tribes (peaking in HTC) but none among the 4 Brahmin (or equivalent status) groups. So some lesser known Q clade could be another likely candidate.

bmoney
06-07-2019, 06:24 AM
P M45 xM207 xM242 is absent almost everywhere.

But it is present in TN who also have M207 xR1xR2a (likely some type of R2). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44

That would explain how early ANE shows up.

good find

bmoney
06-07-2019, 06:32 AM
I don't think I mentioned extinct Y-DNA but now that you mention it that's a good point!

The only problem I can think of is, what lineage could've been prevalent enough in South Asia to increase ANE levels this much, then be driven to extinction? A real Scooby Doo mystery right here.

As you've said, a direct study on Paniyas (and others) may answer this question.

You didnt but i jumped a step(pe?) ahead as your statement about R2-L295 entering no earlier than Iran_N in South Asia makes sense and leads to the fact that:

we'd have to look for minor/extinct lineages as both earlier Dravidian(?) and later Indo-Aryan waves were heavily male dominated and likely out-competed previous males wherever they expanded, which led to large anti-selection on local ys but minimal impact on local mtdna (mtdna M etc)

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 02:04 PM
P M45 xM207 xM242 is absent almost everywhere.

But it is present in TN who also have M207 xR1xR2a (likely some type of R2). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44

That would explain how early ANE shows up.

The R-M207* in this study is M17- and M124-. Those samples could be either R1b, an obscure basal R1a(xM17) subclade or R2(pre-M124 or R2b).

R1b is generally rare in South Asia, and it's mainly seen in the North, so I would probably rule it out. R1b(xM269) (most likely R1b-M73) is an uncommon group and is mainly clustered around Central Asia, with levels in South Central Asia being low - the current TMRCA of values suggests that it's unlikely that this subclade predates R2a in South Asia. The TMRCA date is around 8000 years, and this man would've lived around South Russia/North Kazakhstan. I don't believe this lineage would've reaches South Asia before R2a.

R1b-M269 (most likely R1b-Z2103) appears to be a lineage tied either to J2a-M410 or R1a-Z93, so I think it's far too recent in South Asia to have influenced ANE before R2a/J2b did. Overall, I think it's safe enough to rule out R1b as a whole.

R1a(xM17) is rare globally, even more so in South Asia (only one YFull sample). This specific sample belongs to R1a-YP4132, which has a 5300 year TMRCA and consists of the South Asian and a cluster of people in the British Isles. Presumably this MRCA lived somewhere around West Asia but it's hard to pin down where considering the British cluster only has a 900 year TMRCA, however the sister branch of YP4132 (R1a-YP5018) has a West Asian distribution. It may be the case that this R1a branch would have a very ancient presence in South Asia (before R2a). I'm not completely sure about this (given the West Asian and European distrubition of nearby subclades) but it having a presence in South Asia before R2a isn't something I can write off entirely.

R2(xM124) seems to be mainly observed in C/SC/S Asia. In South Asia, it's mostly restricted to the NW. This one may also be a potential candidate perhaps?

TL;DR: The M207 (xM17, M124) subclades that are the most likely to have contributed to ANE levels with AASI appear to be some branches of R2.

As thejkhan as mentioned, there are some Q subclades that may also be potential candidates. Maybe even multiple Y-lineages could be responsible for the elevated ANE within AASI, who knows? I'm not an expert regarding Q so I can't say a lot here.

Q + R* is found in small but significant levels in Hill Tribes (in some cases, exceeding R2a). Maybe both of these lineages were responsible (i.e. Q + R2(xM124) and possibly + R1a(xM17)))?

Let me know what your thoughts are regarding basal R1a in South Asia.

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 02:06 PM
You didnt but i jumped a step(pe?) ahead as your statement about R2-L295 entering no earlier than Iran_N in South Asia makes sense and leads to the fact that:

I see what you did there xD lul


we'd have to look for minor/extinct lineages as both earlier Dravidian(?) and later Indo-Aryan waves were heavily male dominated and likely out-competed previous males wherever they expanded, which led to large anti-selection on local ys but minimal impact on local mtdna (mtdna M etc)

You might want to read the post I made above this one. Let me know what you think

parasar
06-07-2019, 03:02 PM
...
As thejkhan as mentioned, there are some Q subclades that may also be potential candidates. Maybe even multiple Y-lineages could be responsible for the elevated ANE within AASI, who knows? I'm not an expert regarding Q so I can't say a lot here.

Q + R* is found in small but significant levels in Hill Tribes (in some cases, exceeding R2a). Maybe both of these lineages were responsible (i.e. Q + R2(xM124) and possibly + R1a(xM17)))?

Let me know what your thoughts are regarding basal R1a in South Asia.

There is some basal R1a in South Asia, but I think that presence is not early but dates to the the common period of bulk Z93 influx when some trace lines also made it in.
Eg. R1a - M420 xM459 YP4132+ Punjabi
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=465163&viewfull=1#post465163

Also the subcontinent has some very basal R1b lines.
H2014-bhu-0984 (Bhutan), Joshi, Raza
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=354845&viewfull=1#post354845

aaronbee2010
06-07-2019, 03:59 PM
There is some basal R1a in South Asia, but I think that presence is not early but dates to the the common period of bulk Z93 influx when some trace lines also made it in.
Eg. R1a - M420 xM459 YP4132+ Punjabi
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=465163&viewfull=1#post465163

Also the subcontinent has some very basal R1b lines.
H2014-bhu-0984 (Bhutan), Joshi, Raza
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=354845&viewfull=1#post354845

The R1a South Asian I was referring to in my previous post was the YP1432+ one you just mentioned, but as you've said, this line probably entered alongside Z93, so wouldn't have been in South Asia before M124.

Considering the R1b you mentioned is L389- and V88-, he either comes under R1b-L754* (unlikely) or R1b-PH155. This clade is very rare even in the region it most likely originated in (Central/East Asia), so I'm not sure if men carrying this Y-DNA would've had much of an affect on ANE levels in AASI. I'm assuming this man is PH200- considering that R1b-PH200 seems to mainly be observed in West Asia.

vishankar
06-08-2019, 03:53 AM
@vishankar could you do y and mtdna tests on your male Nair and Nambudiri kits please

and mtdna on the females

hi dear,
way too expensive,i am afraid.....may be slowly , over many months!!1

vishankar
06-08-2019, 03:56 AM
the adding of Srubnaya has , brought some clarity to matters!!...as they say in Hindi- Doodh Ka Doodh aur Paani ka Paani!...Scobar's results were not updated using Srubnaya?

vishankar
06-08-2019, 05:00 PM
Using 1 population approximation:
1 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 3.503272
2 sinhalese_harappa @ 3.802676
3 tamil_harappa @ 4.278462
4 karnataka_harappa @ 4.517232
5 south-african-indian_harappa @ 4.740963
6 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 4.828378
7 tamil-nadar_harappa @ 4.900196
8 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 5.227755
9 tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 5.801742
10 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.903985
11 tharu_metspalu @ 6.258561
12 sourastrian_harappa @ 6.293498
13 lodi_reich @ 6.437100
14 kurumba_metspalu @ 6.450500
15 up-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 6.539405
16 velama_reich @ 6.553320
17 dusadh_metspalu @ 6.558280
18 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.658587
19 lambadi_metspalu @ 6.681867
20 velama_metspalu @ 6.717782


The thiyya males oracles....sinhalese at number 2, there is more than a grain of truth in their origin from sri lanka i guess!

scobar
06-08-2019, 09:11 PM
the adding of Srubnaya has , brought some clarity to matters!!...as they say in Hindi- Doodh Ka Doodh aur Paani ka Paani!...Scobar's results were not updated using Srubnaya?

Here they are using the (approx/free-tier version of) models bmoney ran earlier. I also ran the modern pop against the ancient components to help see overlaps -

30862

30863

30864

30865

vishankar
06-09-2019, 04:33 AM
Here they are using the (approx/free-tier version of) models bmoney ran earlier. I also ran the modern pop against the ancient components to help see overlaps -

30862

30863

30864

30865

thanks dear!

vishankar
06-09-2019, 06:11 AM
here are 3 nmonte scaled from davidski....most recent dna raw data i had provided-

payyanur_poduval_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,80.6
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,8.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,8.2
Han,1
WHG,1
Nganassan,0.6

[1] "distance%=2.6184"

Bunt_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,86.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,4
Levant_PPNB,3.6
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,2.6
WHG,2
Jarawa,1

[1] "distance%=2.8016"

trivandrum nair_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,84.8
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,6.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,4.2
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,3.6
WHG,0.8
Han,0.4

bmoney
06-11-2019, 12:19 AM
the adding of Srubnaya has , brought some clarity to matters!!...as they say in Hindi- Doodh Ka Doodh aur Paani ka Paani!...Scobar's results were not updated using Srubnaya?

i didnt know what middle east pop to model him with, ill leave this for traject or rusty

bmoney
06-11-2019, 12:44 AM
here are 3 nmonte scaled from davidski....most recent dna raw data i had provided-

payyanur_poduval_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,80.6
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,8.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,8.2
Han,1
WHG,1
Nganassan,0.6

[1] "distance%=2.6184"

Bunt_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,86.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,4
Levant_PPNB,3.6
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,2.6
WHG,2
Jarawa,1

[1] "distance%=2.8016"

trivandrum nair_scaled

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,84.8
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,6.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,4.2
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,3.6
WHG,0.8
Han,0.4

The Bunt and Trivandrum Nair score very similar

Could you ask Poi to upload the Bunt to his tool

I want to run the checkfit distances

vishankar
06-11-2019, 03:26 AM
The Bunt and Trivandrum Nair score very similar

Could you ask Poi to upload the Bunt to his tool

I want to run the checkfit distances


You are dead right bmoney bhai!!!....i will send the coordinates to Poi

bmoney
06-12-2019, 02:27 AM
on second thoughts, the Bunt has Kurmi and Lambadi (Banjara) at closest distance - both UP low caste shifted Gangetic groups (which is what Nair/Bunt origin should be based on texts) along with local affinities

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.77
2 Baloch 36.09
3 Caucasian 5.07
4 NE-Euro 2.07
5 Mediterranean 1.56
6 NE-Asian 1.47
7 Papuan 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 2.703794
2 lambadi_metspalu @ 3.559701
3 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.766765
4 meghawal_metspalu @ 3.771550
5 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.080914
6 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.305325
7 ap-reddy_harappa @ 4.592040
8 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.716404
9 goan_harappa @ 4.716485
10 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.838844
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.970234
12 karnataka_harappa @ 4.992394
13 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.069695
14 tharu_metspalu @ 5.219707
15 tn-brahmin_xing @ 5.277253
16 up_harappa @ 5.301436
17 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.389155
18 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 5.535128
19 tamil_harappa @ 5.675836
20 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 5.687748

So maybe the Ahichatra theory is alive

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-Nair-community

bmoney
06-14-2019, 02:01 AM
What Thiyyas (both samples from North Kerala) and presumable Ezhavas score like in comparison

This sample models as 95% Tamil schedule caste with 5% extra Levant

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 55.21
2 Baloch 30.79
3 Caucasian 3.46
4 SW-Asian 2.97
5 Mediterranean 2.07
6 SE-Asian 2.01
7 Siberian 1.41
8 Papuan 1.29
9 Beringian 0.46
10 W-African 0.33

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 3.28
2 sinhalese (harappa) 3.54
3 tamil (harappa) 3.99
4 karnataka (harappa) 4.17
5 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 4.45
6 tamil-nadar (harappa) 4.51
7 kerala-muslim (harappa) 4.85
8 tamil-vellalar (harappa) 5.33
9 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 5.42
10 tharu (metspalu) 5.77
11 kurumba (metspalu) 5.9
12 lodi (reich) 5.9
13 dusadh (metspalu) 5.99
14 up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 6
15 velama (reich) 6.04
16 velama (metspalu) 6.17
17 ap-reddy (harappa) 6.24
18 naidu (reich) 6.44
19 up-muslim (metspalu) 6.56
20 dharkar (metspalu) 6.85

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.9% ap-mala (xing) + 28.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.82
2 71.6% mala (reich) + 28.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.85
3 74.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 25.1% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.89
4 94.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.3% algeria (henn2012) @ 1.89
5 94.9% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.1% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 1.9
6 96% sinhalese (harappa) + 4% libya (henn2012) @ 1.95
7 96.2% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.8% mozabite (hgdp) @ 1.98
8 96.1% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.9% algeria (henn2012) @ 1.99
9 94.4% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.6% morocco-jew (behar) @ 1.99
10 94.9% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.1% mozabite (hgdp) @ 1.99
11 94.8% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.2% moroccan (behar) @ 2
12 96.2% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.8% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 2
13 96.1% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.9% moroccan (behar) @ 2.01
14 95.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 4.8% tunisia (henn2012) @ 2.01
15 96.3% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.7% saharawi (henn2012) @ 2.02
16 96.4% sinhalese (harappa) + 3.6% tunisia (henn2012) @ 2.06
17 95% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5% saharawi (henn2012) @ 2.06
18 94.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 5.3% libya (henn2012) @ 2.08
19 95.4% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 4.6% sardinian (hgdp) @ 2.09
20 94.4% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 5.6% morocco-jew (behar) @ 2.1

This sample models as 80% Syrian Christian with 20% Tamil Nadu SC

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.1
2 Baloch 34.29
3 Caucasian 5.22
4 SW-Asian 3.11
5 Papuan 1.93
6 NE-Euro 1.66
7 SE-Asian 1.07
8 NE-Asian 0.7
9 Beringian 0.64
10 W-African 0.4
11 Mediterranean 0.37
12 American 0.36
13 Pygmy 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 2.47
2 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.91
3 rajasthani (harappa) 4.24
4 tamil (harappa) 4.26
5 kerala-muslim (harappa) 4.3
6 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 4.33
7 up (harappa) 4.79
8 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.8
9 karnataka (harappa) 4.95
10 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.97
11 ap-brahmin (xing) 5.18
12 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.44
13 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.58
14 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 5.7
15 tharu (metspalu) 5.71
16 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.71
17 bihari (harappa) 5.8
18 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.91
19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.17
20 up-muslim (metspalu) 6.2

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.2% sakilli (chaubey) + 31.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.51
2 67.5% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 32.5% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.55
3 70.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 29.9% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.56
4 81.7% kerala-christian (harappa) + 18.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.57
5 71.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 28.2% karnataka (harappa) @ 1.66
6 74.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 25.8% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.66
7 83.5% kerala-christian (harappa) + 16.5% tamil-nadar (harappa) @ 1.67
8 85.9% kerala-christian (harappa) + 14.1% naidu (reich) @ 1.69
9 65.1% north-kannadi (chaubey) + 34.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.72
10 83.2% kerala-christian (harappa) + 16.8% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.72
11 85.3% kerala-christian (harappa) + 14.7% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.73
12 70.6% kamsali (reich) + 29.4% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.76
13 61.9% tn-dalit (xing) + 38.1% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.76
14 87.3% kerala-christian (harappa) + 12.7% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.77
15 84.9% kerala-christian (harappa) + 15.1% lodi (reich) @ 1.77
16 67.1% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) + 32.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.78
17 87.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 12.2% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.78
18 68.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 31.9% punjabi (harappa) @ 1.78
19 90.4% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 9.6% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.78
20 89% kerala-christian (harappa) + 11% vysya (reich) @ 1.79


My guess is these peoples represent the Tamilakam type population prior to the 2nd Chera era, with some variance

The second sample scores Syrian Christians as top single distance match, though seems a bit more south shifted in the mixed oracle (20% more represented by Tamil SC)

Syrian Christians seem to be more North Indian shifted overall (and ME shifted in some cases) which might mean they mixed with northern migrants more than Ezhavas/Thiyyas, along with input from assimilated conversions from the former

bmoney
06-14-2019, 02:15 AM
Bunt mixed mode

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.7% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 32.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.17
2 71.3% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 28.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.28
3 73.2% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 26.8% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.46
4 80.1% karnataka (harappa) + 19.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.46
5 76.8% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 23.2% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.48
6 67.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 32.5% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 1.55
7 53.1% karnataka (harappa) + 46.9% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 1.58
8 68.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 31.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.6
9 77.6% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 22.4% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.62
10 80.1% karnataka (harappa) + 19.9% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 1.65
11 82.9% karnataka (harappa) + 17.1% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.67
12 80.9% karnataka (harappa) + 19.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.71
13 65.5% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 34.5% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.71
14 84.2% karnataka (harappa) + 15.8% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.71
15 75.1% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 24.9% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.72
16 86.6% karnataka (harappa) + 13.4% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.73
17 74.3% velama (metspalu) + 25.7% up-muslim (harappa) @ 1.74
18 51.7% karnataka (harappa) + 48.3% tn-brahmin (xing) @ 1.75
19 88.8% velama (metspalu) + 11.2% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 1.76
20 64.5% tn-brahmin (xing) + 35.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.76

Nambudiri Brahmins NW Brahmin shift is perplexing when they are meant to resemble UP Brahmins with local admix

Nambudiri Brahmin 1 mixed mode

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 31.6% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.62
2 70.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 29.2% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.81
3 67.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 32.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.83
4 69.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 30.2% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.85
5 56.7% bhatia (harappa) + 43.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.86
6 68.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 31.4% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.86
7 64.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 35.3% chenchu (metspalu) @ 1.89
8 72.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 27.8% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.93
9 70% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 30% madiga (reich) @ 1.94
10 66% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 34% kamsali (reich) @ 1.95
11 63.1% up-muslim (metspalu) + 36.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.95
12 72.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 27.9% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.96
13 70.9% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 29.1% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.99
14 70.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 29.2% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 2.05
15 71.9% up-muslim (metspalu) + 28.1% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.05
16 70.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 29.2% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 2.08
17 72.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 27.3% mala (reich) @ 2.08
18 56.8% up-muslim (metspalu) + 43.2% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.08
19 71.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 28.5% kurumba (reich) @ 2.1
20 72.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 27.4% mala (reich) @ 2.1

Nambudiri Brahmin 2 mixed mode:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.8% lodi (reich) + 40.2% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.76
2 65.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 34.5% vysya (reich) @ 1.82
3 59.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 40.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.88
4 64.3% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 35.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.92
5 63.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 36.2% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.96
6 61.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 38.1% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.99
7 69% tharu (metspalu) + 31% kalash (hgdp) @ 2
8 63.4% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 36.6% vysya (reich) @ 2.04
9 94.1% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 5.9% urkarah (xing) @ 2.06
10 92.3% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 7.7% urkarah (xing) @ 2.07
11 92.5% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 7.5% lezgin (behar) @ 2.11
12 69.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 30.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 2.11
13 50.9% vysya (reich) + 49.1% pathan (hgdp) @ 2.12
14 59.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 40.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.12
15 57.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 42.5% sinhalese (harappa) @ 2.13
16 58.3% dusadh (metspalu) + 41.7% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.14
17 77.1% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 22.9% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.14
18 69.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 30.1% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.15
19 95.9% meghawal (reich) + 4.1% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 2.15
20 96.1% meghawal (reich) + 3.9% georgian (behar) @ 2.15

bmoney
06-14-2019, 02:25 AM
Malabar Nair oracles (only Kookal is confirmed Malabar Nair, rest have Hindu names)-

sample 1 my top match

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.8% lodi (reich) + 46.2% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.45
2 56.3% bhatia (harappa) + 43.7% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.46
3 52.7% hallaki (reich) + 47.3% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.46
4 56.9% dusadh (metspalu) + 43.1% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.5
5 56.2% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 43.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.51
6 68.7% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 31.3% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.56
7 58.4% lodi (reich) + 41.6% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.58
8 79.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 20.5% pashtun (harappa) @ 1.59
9 54% bhatia (harappa) + 46% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.61
10 73.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 26.5% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.63
11 52.3% dusadh (metspalu) + 47.7% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.67
12 54.8% bhatia (harappa) + 45.2% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.7
13 73.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 26.2% mala (reich) @ 1.73
14 53.9% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 46.1% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.74
15 59.3% bhatia (harappa) + 40.7% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.74
16 68.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 31.4% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.74
17 56.5% bhatia (harappa) + 43.5% madiga (reich) @ 1.74
18 71.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 28.9% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.76
19 63.7% tharu (metspalu) + 36.3% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.77
20 55.2% naidu (reich) + 44.8% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.77

top match 2 - kookal

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 38.3% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.54
2 53% punjabi (harappa) + 47% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.65
3 77.4% meghawal (reich) + 22.6% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.75
4 57.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 42.7% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.8
5 50.1% sindhi (harappa) + 49.9% vysya (reich) @ 1.81
6 55.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 44.3% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.82
7 59.8% sinhalese (harappa) + 40.2% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.84
8 63.2% sinhalese (harappa) + 36.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.87
9 53.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 46.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.87
10 58.2% tamil (harappa) + 41.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.87
11 64.1% sinhalese (harappa) + 35.9% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.88
12 83.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 16.7% pashtun (harappa) @ 1.9
13 69.5% karnataka (harappa) + 30.5% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.91
14 77.6% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 22.4% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.92
15 60.3% punjabi (harappa) + 39.7% vysya (reich) @ 1.92
16 50.9% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 49.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.92
17 69.2% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 30.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.93
18 65.5% karnataka (harappa) + 34.5% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.94
19 54.5% vysya (reich) + 45.5% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.95
20 90.7% meghawal (reich) + 9.3% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.97

top match 3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 8.7% urkarah (xing) @ 1.13
2 57.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 42.8% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.21
3 63.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 36.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.25
4 56.5% lodi (reich) + 43.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.29
5 56.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 43.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.31
6 91.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 8.5% lezgin (behar) @ 1.36
7 50.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 49.1% vysya (reich) @ 1.37
8 65.3% lodi (reich) + 34.7% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.44
9 64% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 36% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.47
10 51.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 48.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.47
11 63% lodi (reich) + 37% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.49
12 54.3% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 45.7% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.5
13 56.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 43.1% hallaki (reich) @ 1.51
14 67.6% tharu (metspalu) + 32.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.52
15 94.5% ap-brahmin (xing) + 5.5% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.54
16 55.8% bhatia (harappa) + 44.2% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.54
17 56.9% hallaki (reich) + 43.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.54
18 94.7% ap-brahmin (xing) + 5.3% georgian (behar) @ 1.55
19 95.5% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 4.5% georgian (behar) @ 1.57
20 50.3% bhatia (harappa) + 49.7% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.59


me

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.2% lodi (reich) @ 1.52
2 53.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 46.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.67
3 51.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.9% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.69
4 56% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 44% kol (metspalu) @ 1.7
5 60.3% tharu (metspalu) + 39.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74
6 56.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 43.3% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.8
7 53% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 47% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.8
8 66.8% up-muslim (metspalu) + 33.2% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.8
9 51.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.8% lodi (reich) @ 1.81
10 58.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 41.2% vysya (reich) @ 1.81
11 67.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 32.9% madiga (reich) @ 1.82
12 61% up-muslim (metspalu) + 39% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.84
13 96.6% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 3.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.85
14 65.3% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 34.7% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.85
15 51.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.3% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.85
16 51.1% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) + 48.9% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 1.86
17 73.5% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 26.5% vaish (reich) @ 1.89
18 64.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 35.3% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.9
19 97% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 3% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.91
20 97.1% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 2.9% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 1.92

vishankar
06-14-2019, 05:23 AM
Malabar Nair oracles (only Kookal is confirmed Malabar Nair, rest have Hindu names)-

sample 1 my top match

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.8% lodi (reich) + 46.2% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.45
2 56.3% bhatia (harappa) + 43.7% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.46
3 52.7% hallaki (reich) + 47.3% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.46
4 56.9% dusadh (metspalu) + 43.1% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.5
5 56.2% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 43.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.51
6 68.7% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 31.3% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.56
7 58.4% lodi (reich) + 41.6% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.58
8 79.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 20.5% pashtun (harappa) @ 1.59
9 54% bhatia (harappa) + 46% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.61
10 73.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 26.5% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.63
11 52.3% dusadh (metspalu) + 47.7% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.67
12 54.8% bhatia (harappa) + 45.2% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.7
13 73.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 26.2% mala (reich) @ 1.73
14 53.9% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 46.1% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.74
15 59.3% bhatia (harappa) + 40.7% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.74
16 68.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 31.4% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.74
17 56.5% bhatia (harappa) + 43.5% madiga (reich) @ 1.74
18 71.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 28.9% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.76
19 63.7% tharu (metspalu) + 36.3% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.77
20 55.2% naidu (reich) + 44.8% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.77

top match 2 - kookal

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 38.3% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.54
2 53% punjabi (harappa) + 47% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.65
3 77.4% meghawal (reich) + 22.6% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.75
4 57.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 42.7% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.8
5 50.1% sindhi (harappa) + 49.9% vysya (reich) @ 1.81
6 55.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 44.3% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.82
7 59.8% sinhalese (harappa) + 40.2% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.84
8 63.2% sinhalese (harappa) + 36.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.87
9 53.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 46.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.87
10 58.2% tamil (harappa) + 41.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.87
11 64.1% sinhalese (harappa) + 35.9% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.88
12 83.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 16.7% pashtun (harappa) @ 1.9
13 69.5% karnataka (harappa) + 30.5% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.91
14 77.6% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 22.4% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.92
15 60.3% punjabi (harappa) + 39.7% vysya (reich) @ 1.92
16 50.9% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 49.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.92
17 69.2% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 30.8% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.93
18 65.5% karnataka (harappa) + 34.5% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.94
19 54.5% vysya (reich) + 45.5% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.95
20 90.7% meghawal (reich) + 9.3% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.97

top match 3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 8.7% urkarah (xing) @ 1.13
2 57.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 42.8% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 1.21
3 63.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 36.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.25
4 56.5% lodi (reich) + 43.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.29
5 56.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 43.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.31
6 91.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 8.5% lezgin (behar) @ 1.36
7 50.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 49.1% vysya (reich) @ 1.37
8 65.3% lodi (reich) + 34.7% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.44
9 64% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 36% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.47
10 51.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 48.3% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.47
11 63% lodi (reich) + 37% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.49
12 54.3% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 45.7% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.5
13 56.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 43.1% hallaki (reich) @ 1.51
14 67.6% tharu (metspalu) + 32.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.52
15 94.5% ap-brahmin (xing) + 5.5% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.54
16 55.8% bhatia (harappa) + 44.2% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.54
17 56.9% hallaki (reich) + 43.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.54
18 94.7% ap-brahmin (xing) + 5.3% georgian (behar) @ 1.55
19 95.5% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 4.5% georgian (behar) @ 1.57
20 50.3% bhatia (harappa) + 49.7% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.59


me

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.2% lodi (reich) @ 1.52
2 53.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 46.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.67
3 51.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.9% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.69
4 56% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 44% kol (metspalu) @ 1.7
5 60.3% tharu (metspalu) + 39.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74
6 56.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 43.3% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 1.8
7 53% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 47% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.8
8 66.8% up-muslim (metspalu) + 33.2% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.8
9 51.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 48.8% lodi (reich) @ 1.81
10 58.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 41.2% vysya (reich) @ 1.81
11 67.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 32.9% madiga (reich) @ 1.82
12 61% up-muslim (metspalu) + 39% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.84
13 96.6% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 3.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.85
14 65.3% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 34.7% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.85
15 51.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 48.3% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.85
16 51.1% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) + 48.9% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 1.86
17 73.5% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 26.5% vaish (reich) @ 1.89
18 64.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 35.3% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.9
19 97% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 3% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.91
20 97.1% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 2.9% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 1.92



regarding the nambudiri brahmin- my query is whether there is any significant difference b/w the north west brahmin( punjabi) and the UP brahmin in the first place???

bmoney
06-17-2019, 02:17 AM
regarding the nambudiri brahmin- my query is whether there is any significant difference b/w the north west brahmin( punjabi) and the UP brahmin in the first place???

Yes from the few samples ive seen Punjabi Brahmins are less steppe and AASI enriched and more Iran N enriched (as is typical for their region) compared to UP and Bengal Brahmins

client
06-18-2019, 03:09 PM
@bmoney
the NW shift of Nambudiris is not unusual at all, south Indian brahmins as a whole do not simply look like UP brahmins + local SI admixture. They are too Iran_N shifted for that to be.

(Sakili is a SC group)
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.624,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 68.33,
"Sakilli": 31.67,
"closestDistances": [
"Brahmin_Gujarat:undefined: 4.283568",
"Sakilli:undefined: 9.195839"

Model doesn't really work with UP Brahmin, despite it actually being closer distance wise(due to extra AASI presumably)
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 2.4224,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 80,
"Sakilli": 20,
"closestDistances": [
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:undefined: 3.301201",
"Sakilli:undefined: 9.195839"

In the case of Iyers/Tamil Brahmins it is apparently theorised that migrations happened from places like Gujarat. Perhaps similarly for Nambudiris.

models like this also 'work' but seem unrealistic
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.759,
"Velamas": 71.67,
"Ror": 28.33,

bmoney
06-19-2019, 01:55 AM
I do not dispute the Nambudiri results and am perplexed by them - but do not think UP can be discarded as the (y-dna) source for them at all

Gujarat has very little to do with Kerala culturally in the modern era (2k years) apart from ancient genetic IVC ancestry commonality and Dravidian influence/place names along the west coast - there are no Srauta Nambudiri/Havyaka Brahmin like castes there that Nambudiris could descend from

a few things support the UP Brahmin link:

- Nambudiri Brahmin texts (they are the best we have even if its heavily dosed with mythology) - nothing is ever mentioned about Gujarat
- Some Southern Brahmins like Varun (half Karnataka) do score closer to UP Brahmins than Punjabi Brahmins
- You could still get a Nambudiri from modelling a UP Brahmin receiving Iran_N and AASI enrichment from a Gujarati Patel like elite-Dravidian source, the Iran N pointing them more towards the West than UP
- the castes that 2412314 mentions that could have Nagar Brahmin ancestry are likely a subset and not applicable to Kerala or Havyaka Brahmins

Iyers are probably the most Dravidian-elite admixed Brahmin caste there is (high Iran N low steppe, less R1a %) hence I would not use their results to model Nambudiris. Also Nambudiris and Tulu Brahmins are not related to Iyer migrations (the former are likely more recent) and historically considered Iyers impure/polluting/foreign

correct me if im wrong factwise

Exact facts about Havyaka's origin are hard to come by since there are very little research available. However, the scientific school of thought places the date of Havyaka's immigration back to about 1300 years ago i.e.around 9'th A.D. The Brahmin king Mayooravarma-2'nd of 9'th A.D. was instrumental in bringing the first Brahmin families. It is believed that second Kadamba dynasty brought many Brahmins in to perform the royal rituals and the related functions of the empirical government from a place called Ahichchathra in the state of Uttar Pradesh. Thus the first few families were settled in Banavasi, the capital of the Kadambas and the place adored by Pampa.[3] King Mayooravarma -2'nd act of inviting Brahmins to Banavasi has been inscribed on a stone stab(Shilashasana), which now lies near the village of Varadahalli in Sagara. It is now assumed and claimed that these Brahmin families brought from ahichchathra might be those of present-day havyaka families

bmoney
06-19-2019, 02:13 AM
Modern Keralas shared history with Tamil identity (Tamilakam) changes after northern migrations related to the Rashtrakuta 2nd Chera dynasty era:

language, genetics (my hypothesis inferred from the data) and writing script all change after/during this point and made Kerala truly distinct from TN, whereas it was previously a Western extension of Tamil peoples

An identity different from the Tamil-speaking people to the east of the Western Ghats gradually emerged in Kerala in the medieval period. Oldest forms of Malayalam language and earliest signs of increased Namboothiri Brahmin influence are also attested in this period. A new indigenous calendar system, known as Kollam Era (825 CE), is also seen in medieval Kerala.[4][113][114]

client
06-19-2019, 03:39 AM
I do not dispute the Nambudiri results and am perplexed by them - but do not think UP can be discarded as the (y-dna) source for them at all

Gujarat has very little to do with Kerala culturally in the modern era (2k years) apart from ancient genetic IVC ancestry commonality and Dravidian influence/place names along the west coast - there are no Srauta Nambudiri/Havyaka Brahmin like castes there that Nambudiris could descend from

That's possible


a few things support the UP Brahmin link:

- Nambudiri Brahmin texts (they are the best we have even if its heavily dosed with mythology) - nothing is ever mentioned about Gujarat

I assumed western coastline origin or something like that.
Vadama Iyers(certain subsets of them?) revere the Narmada River afaik
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Narmada_river_map.jpg/1280px-Narmada_river_map.jpg



- Some Southern Brahmins like Varun (half Karnataka) do score closer to UP Brahmins than Punjabi Brahmins

scoring closer to UP brahmins doesn't give you the whole picture. In the post I made, Iyers are distance wise closer to UP brahmins than to Gujarati ones, possibly due to UP ones being extra AASI shifted.
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:undefined: 3.301201"
"Brahmin_Gujarat:undefined: 4.283568",
The member Varun is half Palakkad Iyer too I don't think we know how his two sides of ancestry differ(unless he has tested them?)


- You could still get a Nambudiri from modelling a UP Brahmin receiving Iran_N and AASI enrichment from a Gujarati Patel like elite-Dravidian source, the Iran N pointing them more towards the West than UP
-
the castes that 2412314 mentions that could have Nagar Brahmin ancestry are likely a subset and not applicable to Kerala or Havyaka Brahmins

that is likely, Iran_N rich castes do exist in abundance in that area.

Iyers are probably the most Dravidian-elite admixed Brahmin caste there is (high Iran N low steppe, less R1a %) hence I would not use their results to model Nambudiris.

I've seen R1a levels of Vadama Iyers from some study and they're around 47% iirc, Iyengars were a little less.

Though regarding Iran_N admixture from Middle caste dravidians, I'm not sure about that, because such Iran rich castes(Mudaliars ~ 5%,around the same as Brahmins) are a small minority in Tamil Nadu(unlike other Dravidian states). I reckon they're more like Gujarati Brahmin + mid-low caste dravidian
somewhere between Sakili(SC Tamil) model and this one-
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.6878,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
"Maratha": 37.5,

I think we'd need to do more research on gotras to ascertain these things, but in the case of Tamil Nadu at least, I think multiregional origins are possible.


Also Nambudiris and Tulu Brahmins are not related to Iyer migrations (the former are likely more recent) and historically considered Iyers impure/polluting/foreign


The 'impurity' thing is because of internal Namboothiri-Iyer feuds, not admixture proportions LOL.
Namboothiris refused to coronate Nair royalty as they considered them false Kshatriyas, leading to Nairs import Iyers from TN, forming the Palakkad /Other Kerala Iyer group. Iyers actually outnumber Namboothiris in Kerala, ironically.

bmoney
06-19-2019, 04:58 AM
That's possible

I assumed western coastline origin or something like that.
Vadama Iyers(certain subsets of them?) revere the Narmada River afaik
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Narmada_river_map.jpg/1280px-Narmada_river_map.jpg


scoring closer to UP brahmins doesn't give you the whole picture. In the post I made, Iyers are distance wise closer to UP brahmins than to Gujarati ones, possibly due to UP ones being extra AASI shifted.
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:undefined: 3.301201"
"Brahmin_Gujarat:undefined: 4.283568",
The member Varun is half Palakkad Iyer too I don't think we know how his two sides of ancestry differ(unless he has tested them?)

that is likely, Iran_N rich castes do exist in abundance in that area.

I've seen R1a levels of Vadama Iyers from some study and they're around 47% iirc, Iyengars were a little less.

Though regarding Iran_N admixture from Middle caste dravidians, I'm not sure about that, because such Iran rich castes(Mudaliars ~ 5%,around the same as Brahmins) are a small minority in Tamil Nadu(unlike other Dravidian states). I reckon they're more like Gujarati Brahmin + mid-low caste dravidian
somewhere between Sakili(SC Tamil) model and this one-
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.6878,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
"Maratha": 37.5,

I think we'd need to do more research on gotras to ascertain these things, but in the case of Tamil Nadu at least, I think multiregional origins are possible.


The 'impurity' thing is because of internal Namboothiri-Iyer feuds, not admixture proportions LOL.
Namboothiris refused to coronate Nair royalty as they considered them false Kshatriyas, leading to Nairs import Iyers from TN, forming the Palakkad /Other Kerala Iyer group. Iyers actually outnumber Namboothiris in Kerala, ironically.

I agree with the modelling aspect - who knows what pulls Nambudiris away from UP Brahmins - is it more steppe and AASI admixture in the latter post-Nambudiri exodus due to Scythians? is it due to Nambudiris mixing with low-mid caste Dravidians in various proportions? (more likely) - Im sure some Iyers can overlap with Nambudiris due to similar ratios too - I score closest to Iyers on G25 but Tamil culture has nothing to do with our history there is 0% chance of any Tamil ancestry whether Brahmin or non-Brahmin (except the local Western Tamil type). So to say UP is definitely not a source for Nambudiris requires proof

I'm pretty skeptical of a Gujarat origin for Nambudiris - likely it was the other way UP Brahmins went outwards to Gujarat as Gujarati Brahmins can easily be modelled as UP Brahmins enriched with local Iran N - they also score a lower steppe ratio than UP Brahmins as I have showed in the nmonte thread

Ditto for Punjab
Ditto for Maharashtra
Ditto for Tamil Nadu

A subset of Iyers might have come from Gujarat, but its more likely that the numerical bulk of Iyers are related to one of the earlier Brahmin migrations out of an initially bottlenecked Brahmin pop likely in the vicinity of the Ganges. Iyers probably are the most admixed outwards from this group, perhaps due to timeline

Re Iyer R1a

27.6%

Iyengar - 30%

This is even lower than Nairs from what Ive seen

L in Iyers - 20%, Iyengar 16.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I highly doubt Nambudiris, Tulu Brahmins or Havyak Brahmins will have this y-dna distribution

Rather they would have greater UP related R1a/R2/H IMO given how orthodox and patrilineal they are

Re Vadama Iyers - sure that might be the case but again I don't see Iyers and Nambudiris linked to the same migration. You cant extrapolate Nambudiri history using Iyer history

In terms of rivalry in Kerala, yes that's probably the case but it is also likely that as Nambudiris are unrelated patrilineally to Iyers, the lack of verification of Brahmin statushood might also play a part in their 'pollution' classification.

There is also the fact that Iyers always spoke Tamil, not the Sanskrit influenced western Tamil now called Malayalam - another reason why the groups were probably initially not known to each other

Yes Nairs and Bunts are Sudras, not Kshatriyas, though migrating Sudras who lost the thread originally as per Brahmin texts, which actually plays quite well with that Bunt harappa result and with most Nair results.

In contrast, the likely preexisting Tamilakam Thiyyas/Ezhavas were considered without varna (avarna), and outside the caste system by Nambudiris ie they were not recognised

In Kerala, many local castes also assimilated into the community but these castes were never married into by other subsets. This doesnt mean that local admixture doesnt exist among the preexisting Nair populace, it definitely did as with Bunts and probably in significant amounts, but when communities assimilated wholesale like Tamil Padam Nairs - they stayed segregated due to endogamical rigidity

Yep some Nairs did elevate themselves into Kshatriyahood from Sudras by paying for a hiranyagarbha ceremony performed by Tulu and Tamil Brahmins as you mention and it is ironic that Nambudiri Brahmins are numerically smaller due to their strict marriage and recognition practices


I think we'd need to do more research on gotras to ascertain these things, but in the case of Tamil Nadu at least, I think multiregional origins are possible.

exactly, similar proportions of Iran_N, Steppe, AASI can be modelled using various ratios of source pops and hypothetical combos, but it has to be combined with some historical likelihood/theory to get a better picture

Gujarat Brahmins model well no doubt, but UP ancestry cant be excluded in either Iyer or Nambudiri origins (though separate migrations)

bmoney
06-19-2019, 07:20 AM
@vishankar your inbox is full so im replying here in relation to your query about the H Nambiar

Brahmins are not 100% R1a, they certainly can carry various haplogroups including H

in this case given Nambiars historically don't have Brahmin ancestry, we can infer that mostly likely the H is from a non-Brahmin ancestor

H is not common among Brahmins generally but UP Brahmins are 16% H and 67% R1a in a study - so they can carry this lineage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

client
06-19-2019, 12:36 PM
I agree with the modelling aspect - who knows what pulls Nambudiris away from UP Brahmins - is it more steppe and AASI admixture in the latter post-Nambudiri exodus due to Scythians? is it due to Nambudiris mixing with low-mid caste Dravidians in various proportions? (more likely)
I'm not sure what you mean, but my point was that UP brahmins are closer to South Indian Brahmins than Gujarati, Punjabi etc etc Brahmins are.
This is because of AASI drift lines being longer than that of intra-western eurasian ones. The only way to test individual affinities would be to look at the western eurasian shell alone.



- Im sure some Iyers can overlap with Nambudiris due to similar ratios too - I score closest to Iyers on G25 but Tamil culture has nothing to do with our history there is 0% chance of any Tamil ancestry whether Brahmin or non-Brahmin (except the local Western Tamil type). So to say UP is definitely not a source for Nambudiris requires proof

I did not claim that anywhere in my previous post. I said, that I (perhaps erroneously) assumed a western coastline origin for them - but perhaps it is not so.


I'm pretty skeptical of a Gujarat origin for Nambudiris - likely it was the other way UP Brahmins went outwards to Gujarat as Gujarati Brahmins can easily be modelled as UP Brahmins enriched with local Iran N - they also score a lower steppe ratio than UP Brahmins as I have showed in the nmonte thread

Ditto for Punjab
Ditto for Maharashtra
Ditto for Tamil Nadu

The UP Brahmin samples on the g25 spreadsheet are a bit dodgy. They behave a bit weirdly and are not particularly useful in models. But I doubt Punjabi Brahmins can be modeled as steppe dilutions of UP Brahmins, anyway. I think you are confusing the hypothetical Ror-like Gangetic Brahmins for present day UP Brahmins. Higher "Steppe ratio" does not have to translate to greater net steppe(and it doesn't, in this case)



A subset of Iyers might have come from Gujarat, but its more likely that the numerical bulk of Iyers are related to one of the earlier Brahmin migrations out of an initially bottlenecked Brahmin pop likely in the vicinity of the Ganges.
What in particular suggests that?



Iyers probably are the most admixed outwards from this group, perhaps due to timeline

Most southern/AASI shifted does not mean most non-Brahmin "admixed", these are two separate things.
For instance Namboothiris could be some A% "progenitor" brahmin + B% local Kerala group, while Tamil Brahmins could be X% "progenitor" Brahmin(assuming groups are the same on paper for the sake of this argument) + Y% local TN group.
Now even if, Namboothiris are closer to UP brahmins on paper, it does not necessarily mean that B<Y, because the local substrate in question is obviously not the same.
Nairs themselves, as you said are "canonically" Iyers on paper, so admixture with them would definitely not be as "deviant" as caste Tamil admixture.
---
Going by harappa due to lack of samples:

Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%

middle caste tamils

Tamil Nadar 62% 30% 0% 0%
Tamil Nadar 59% 32% 3% 0%
Tamil Nadar 55% 30% 3% 0%
Tamil Vellalar 50% 35% 6% 1%
Tamil Vellalar 51% 32% 5% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 32% 5% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 33% 0% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 56% 36% 0% 0%


UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
Even if you assume a bit of that Baloch is a part of "steppic" admixture or something(which Tamil Brahmins already only have scant amounts of), they are still too Iran shifted to have acquired their admixture solely from MC groups. UP Brahmin obviously doesn't suffice either(proportions, steppe baloch)

OTOH, Nairs:

Kerala Nair 48% 40% 4% 0%
Kerala Nair 47% 38% 5% 5%
----


Re Iyer R1a
27.6%

Iyengar - 30%

This is even lower than Nairs from what Ive seen

L in Iyers - 20%, Iyengar 16.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I highly doubt Nambudiris, Tulu Brahmins or Havyak Brahmins will have this y-dna distribution

Rather they would have greater UP related R1a/R2/H IMO given how orthodox and patrilineal they are


different sources will tell you different things, and I'd generally approach haplogroup studies/the topic of haplogroups with caution.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MnAdGbGupQ8/ULo6hAjj8_I/AAAAAAAABWo/7DLTiIXotug/s1600/TamilNaduT2b.png

Haplogroups are easily bottlenecked too, take the case of Bengali Brahmins, they have among the highest incidences of R1a1a. Doesn't exactly mean they are "proto-Brahmins".



Re Vadama Iyers - sure that might be the case but again I don't see Iyers and Nambudiris linked to the same migration. You cant extrapolate Nambudiri history using Iyer history

I did not claim so, and of course, that cannot be done.



In terms of rivalry in Kerala, yes that's probably the case but it is also likely that as Nambudiris are unrelated patrilineally to Iyers, the lack of verification of Brahmin statushood might also play a part in their 'pollution' classification.


Namboodiris practiced untouchability against Tulu Brahmins as well:
https://www.namboothiri.com/articles/sudham.htm

Tulu Brahmanans are known as Embraanthiris (or Embraans in short) in Kerala. If a Namboothiri happens to touch or comes in physical contact with an Embraanthiri, he gets the Embraan Sudham, which is supposed to be one step lower in rank among various types of purity of Namboothiris. Widows and boys (before Upanayanam) should avoid this Asudham. It is taboo for Brahmachaaris (boys between Upanayanam and Samaavarthanam). But it is not compulsory that an adult male Namboothiri should bathe before performing "sandhyaavandanam" if he is polluted due to "Embraan sudham".





There is also the fact that Iyers always spoke Tamil, not the Sanskrit influenced western Tamil now called Malayalam - another reason why the groups were probably initially not known to each other


Tamil Brahmins speak a specific dialect of Tamil, known as Brahmin Tamil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin_Tamil), which is a Sanskritised Tamil of sorts, though distinct to Malayalam, of course.


In Kerala, many local castes also assimilated into the community but these castes were never married into by other subsets. This doesnt mean that local admixture doesnt exist among the preexisting Nair populace, it definitely did as with Bunts and probably in significant amounts, but when communities assimilated wholesale like Tamil Padam Nairs - they stayed segregated due to endogamical rigidity

I wouldn't be so sure of this stuff, but perhaps to an extent, maybe.

bmoney
06-20-2019, 01:44 AM
i think were on the same page here - a lot of what i was positing wasnt a strawman of your argument or in response to per se, i just wanted to clear my position

My latest theory is that a migration from Karnataka with different ancestry to the pre-existing population of Kerala sweeped the region, and Nambudiri history to key to that, given the timelines coincide


I'm not sure what you mean, but my point was that UP brahmins are closer to South Indian Brahmins than Gujarati, Punjabi etc etc Brahmins are.
This is because of AASI drift lines being longer than that of intra-western eurasian ones. The only way to test individual affinities would be to look at the western eurasian shell alone.

The west eurasian shell is actually way more complex/nuanced and should not be used as a metric- which is what ive been previously ranting on in the forum. Iyer SISBA2+3 dominance might not be fully the same source as a large part of the genome of the heavily Yamna affinity Ror (with additional Siberian) - they shouldnt be grouped together as West Eurasian because sources can be different and significantly apart by timeline. No doubt the Iyers have this pseudo Ror component, but its smaller than for all other Brahmins hence the dilution was likely local admix using Occams razor which also makes sense given their IranN levels are higher than modern UP pops

you are right about AASI bringing UP Brahmins and Iyers closer, but the steppe to Iran N ratio is closer for Iyers and Gujarati Brahmins, and similarly closer for UP and Nepali Brahmins - they are in different segments when you look at Steppe to Iran N ratio, which was what i was getting at


The UP Brahmin samples on the g25 spreadsheet are a bit dodgy. They behave a bit weirdly and are not particularly useful in models. But I doubt Punjabi Brahmins can be modeled as steppe dilutions of UP Brahmins, anyway. I think you are confusing the hypothetical Ror-like Gangetic Brahmins for present day UP Brahmins. Higher "Steppe ratio" does not have to translate to greater net steppe(and it doesn't, in this case)

yep this is why remains of proto-Brahmin would be much more illuminative - but even with modern UP/Nepal/Bengal Brahmins - the pseudo-ror contribution compared to the SISBA1/2/3 contribution is higher than it is for Southern, Western or NW Brahmins.

Punjabi Brahmins can absolutely be modelled as UP Brahmin and local Khatri (extrapolating from HAP but you can use Rahul (Potohar Brahmin) on G25) just like Sikh Jatts can be modelled as UP Jatt with Khatri. Steppe to Iran N ratio dilutions not 'steppe dilutions' which is what ive been trying to communicate


Most southern/AASI shifted does not mean most non-Brahmin "admixed", these are two separate things.Now even if, Namboothiris are closer to UP brahmins on paper, it does not necessarily mean that B<Y, because the local substrate in question is obviously not the same.
Nairs themselves, as you said are "canonically" Iyers on paper, so admixture with them would definitely not be as "deviant" as caste Tamil admixture.

I extrapolated this from steppe ratio, yes Iyers have the lowest steppe proportion of their genome compared to any Brahmin on average in G25 - you can run this yourself

I agree with your point that depending on the mix of the local substrate or AASI levels that UP Brahmins score, an individual Iyer might score closer to UP Brahmin than a Nambudiri (my hunch is not on an average level when we have a robust dataset) - but the point still stands that Nambudiri and Iyer migrations were different timelines and this is likely to play out in average differentials between the groups as they are distinct, as well as broadly different y proportions despite your point that y-dna is heavily founder effected and subject to sample bias (i agree) - i cant prove this without data (a robust y-study on Nambudiris for example), its just a hunch for me

Re Tulu Brahmins - yes you are correct about that, but Shivalli Brahmins also have the Ahichatra/Mayuravarma invitation origin myth, unlike Iyers hence Iyers are more likely to be foreign to Nambudiris than Embranthiris were. Also the case that the first Nambudiri settlements (in North Kerala) are virtually next to Tulu lands and further from Tamil Nadu


What in particular suggests that?

just a hunch that the pseudo-Ror R1a heavy proto-Brahmin spread from Nepal and UP and not Gujarat for example - data is not inconsistent with this

All Brahmins, inc Iyers are likely to have descent from this group given how important lineage and patrilineality were to Brahmins.

Whether Brahmins like Nagar Brahmins later migrated to other regions and became a subset of Iyers is relevant to their particular subcastes too if there is oral or written history

26284729292
06-20-2019, 03:01 AM
i think were on the same page here - a lot of what i was positing wasnt a strawman of your argument or in response to per se, i just wanted to clear my position

My latest theory is that a migration from Karnataka with different ancestry to the pre-existing population of Kerala sweeped the region, and Nambudiri history to key to that, given the timelines coincide



The west eurasian shell is actually way more complex/nuanced and should not be used as a metric- which is what ive been previously ranting on in the forum. Iyer SISBA2+3 dominance might not be fully the same source as a large part of the genome of the heavily Yamna affinity Ror (with additional Siberian) - they shouldnt be grouped together as West Eurasian because sources can be different and significantly apart by timeline. No doubt the Iyers have this pseudo Ror component, but its smaller than for all other Brahmins hence the dilution was likely local admix using Occams razor which also makes sense given their IranN levels are higher than modern UP pops

you are right about AASI bringing UP Brahmins and Iyers closer, but the steppe to Iran N ratio is closer for Iyers and Gujarati Brahmins, and similarly closer for UP and Nepali Brahmins - they are in different segments when you look at Steppe to Iran N ratio, which was what i was getting at



yep this is why remains of proto-Brahmin would be much more illuminative - but even with modern UP/Nepal/Bengal Brahmins - the pseudo-ror contribution compared to the SISBA1/2/3 contribution is higher than it is for Southern, Western or NW Brahmins.

Punjabi Brahmins can absolutely be modelled as UP Brahmin and local Khatri (extrapolating from HAP but you can use Rahul (Potohar Brahmin) on G25) just like Sikh Jatts can be modelled as UP Jatt with Khatri. Steppe to Iran N ratio dilutions not 'steppe dilutions' which is what ive been trying to communicate



I extrapolated this from steppe ratio, yes Iyers have the lowest steppe proportion of their genome compared to any Brahmin on average in G25 - you can run this yourself

I agree with your point that depending on the mix of the local substrate or AASI levels that UP Brahmins score, an individual Iyer might score closer to UP Brahmin than a Nambudiri (my hunch is not on an average level when we have a robust dataset) - but the point still stands that Nambudiri and Iyer migrations were different timelines and this is likely to play out in average differentials between the groups as they are distinct, as well as broadly different y proportions despite your point that y-dna is heavily founder effected and subject to sample bias (i agree) - i cant prove this without data (a robust y-study on Nambudiris for example), its just a hunch for me

Re Tulu Brahmins - yes you are correct about that, but Shivalli Brahmins also have the Ahichatra/Mayuravarma invitation origin myth, unlike Iyers hence Iyers are more likely to be foreign to Nambudiris than Embranthiris were. Also the case that the first Nambudiri settlements (in North Kerala) are virtually next to Tulu lands and further from Tamil Nadu



just a hunch that the pseudo-Ror R1a heavy proto-Brahmin spread from Nepal and UP and not Gujarat for example - data is not inconsistent with this

All Brahmins, inc Iyers are likely to have descent from this group given how important lineage and patrilineality were to Brahmins.

Whether Brahmins like Nagar Brahmins later migrated to other regions and became a subset of Iyers is relevant to their particular subcastes too if there is oral or written history

Great discussion by both of you. Curious to see where it goes...

client
06-20-2019, 03:40 AM
@bmoney, I'll give you a proper response when I get the time, but what I am essentially saying at the moment is that the Iran-Steppe skew of Tamil Brahmins may be a result of their migration pattern and not necessarily a result of admixture acquired in TN.
That is, they were already skewed when they arrived, as local populations do not seem to have the right sort of proportions to produce this effect.
Of course we're not even factoring in intra-Tamil Brahmin variation while discussing this, like the clear cut distinction between subsects
Vadama Iyer(later entrants) vs Chozhiar Iyer(earlier entrants, or even largely assimilated locals)
Vadakalai Iyengar vs Thenkalai Iyengar(same as above)
etc etc.

Looking at specific individuals, I even see types that appear to AASI-diluted far NW types(chalc signal, unusually low steppe). Sort of like slightly extra AASI/IVC versions of member Sudkol.

Will elaborate later on, reg the other things being discussed too.

26284729292
06-20-2019, 08:18 AM
@bmoney, I'll give you a proper response when I get the time, but what I am essentially saying at the moment is that the Iran-Steppe skew of Tamil Brahmins may be a result of their migration pattern and not necessarily a result of admixture acquired in TN.
That is, they were already skewed when they arrived, as local populations do not seem to have the right sort of proportions to produce this effect.
Of course we're not even factoring in intra-Tamil Brahmin variation while discussing this, like the clear cut distinction between subsects
Vadama Iyer(later entrants) vs Chozhiar Iyer(earlier entrants, or even largely assimilated locals)
Vadakalai Iyengar vs Thenkalai Iyengar(same as above)
etc etc.

Looking at specific individuals, I even see types that appear to AASI-diluted far NW types(chalc signal, unusually low steppe). Sort of like slightly extra AASI/IVC versions of member Sudkol.

Will elaborate later on, reg the other things being discussed too.

I mean gujarat brahmin and piramalai could do it. But marathas offer the closest fit with GBR and they are certainly not common in tamil nadu IIRC.

bmoney
06-21-2019, 01:53 AM
I mean gujarat brahmin and piramalai could do it. But marathas offer the closest fit with GBR and they are certainly not common in tamil nadu IIRC.

im open to that and what client is saying based on our current dataset but we have to keep in mind:

- Most Iyers (outside Vadama?) do not have oral or written history of western or northern migration. Nambudiris on the other hand have oral and written history that they are migrants - and not from West India

- Iyers likely married the elite of the local populace, like Sudkols high Iran N can be derived from a Kush-like Reddy pop (Kush regularly scores Baloch in his mixed mode at significant levels and is high Iran N, much more so than Piramalai)

- Chances of the bulk of Iyers going to W/NW first for their Iran_N/AASI levels and then the South is way harder to prove (with no written or oral evidence) than the proposal that they migrated down from UP and mixed with either proto Tamil (or Telugu) high Iran N IVC elites - just because we don't have a high Iran_N Tamil caste on G25 doesn't mean they don't exist in TN or never did, when they do in AP for example (Reddy)

- Brahmins (presumably Iyers) are mentioned in the Sangam literature

http://kauniyansri.blogspot.com/2014/10/brahmins-in-sangam-literature-17.html

The Sangam literature (Tamil: சங்க இலக்கியம், Sanga ilakkiyam) is the ancient Tamil literature of the period in the history of south India (known as the Thamizhagam or the Tamilagam) spanning from c. 300 BCE to 300 CE

This is fairly ancient and its hard to say Iyers received no local admixture since this period

Maybe its the case that the Tamil high Iran N IVC elite simply merged with the Brahmins and castes like the Piramalai, who didnt, remained

Nambudiris on the other hand were paternally extremely rigid (racist), they did not mix with Sudra Nairs or Avarna locals (unless via sambandham where the offspring were not allowed to eat with the father and still considered sudra) as established and known policy as recent as 100 years ago - any local mixture was likely to be female mediated at the founding stages

Nambudiri results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.73
2 Baloch 35.3
3 Caucasian 7.85
4 NE-Euro 7.64
5 NE-Asian 1.97
6 Papuan 0.81
7 American 0.55
8 Beringian 0.42
9 SW-Asian 0.39
10 E-African 0.34

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.42
2 Baloch 37.25
3 Caucasian 8.26
4 NE-Euro 6.89
5 SE-Asian 1.37
6 Papuan 0.51
7 American 0.4
8 Beringian 0.28
9 NE-Asian 0.25
10 Siberian 0.17
11 San 0.15
12 SW-Asian 0.05

Iyer & Iyengar results - definite overlap but the Nambudiri samples would be among the most NE Euro + Caucasian and least SI shifted Iyer samples but nothing dramatic suggesting similarish levels of local admix:

SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro

Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%

UP Brahmin - The Nambudiris and NE Euro+Caucasian shifted Iyers + Iyengars are not that far off from the top 2 samples - the bottom sample almost overlaps with the high steppe ratio of Nepali Brahmins

UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%

bmoney
06-21-2019, 03:06 AM
Interesting - most Iyers score exactly like this UP Kayastha sample with roughly 1-2% extra NE Euro

SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro
UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%

Telugu Brahmin similar to the bulk of Iyers with 1% extra SI - AP Brahmin (Xing, N = 25) 49% 36% 3% 6%

client
06-21-2019, 03:41 AM
I shall look more into origin hypotheses for Tamil Brahmins, but for the time being I am somewhat confident that the UP origin theory may not hold for most of us.
I too was originally convinced of a direct gangetic origin for us, but I recall member 26284729292 posting something that made me reconsider that notion(Gujarati-Maratha model + extra info). If he could reiterate what he had said and share extra info that would be useful. Member Pegasus had shared his thoughts too iirc.

a few, quick runs, with the underlying assumption that SIS3-type castes did exist in abundance:
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 2.3153,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 72.5,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 27.5,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.5834,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 37.5,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.8795,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 63.33,
"Ror": 36.67


Reg Velama etc, they seem to have some Indo-Aryan input as well, as in, non-negligible steppe admixture that cannot be neglected. Entirely possible that their SiS3-ness is somehow a result of IA admixture reducing the AASI levels to the correct proportions.

To my knowledge, Member Kush does not have sufficient Iran_N or the BMAC-ness that would be required to arrive at Sudkol's proportions. Sudkol is a Telugu Brahmin, anyway, and is among the most northern shifted SI brahmin samples(more northern than Varun iirc). He seems like a Kashmiri Pandit + local Dravidian type of thing.

Furthermore, the extent to which one has deviated from the Brahmin form, both wrt "original" Brahmins and local "progenitor" Brahmins is something that cannot easily be arrived at empirically.
Take the case of Kashmiri Pandits who are largely iterations of SGPT types

Karkuns who form the main population of Kashmiri Pandits are autochthonous they cluster towards Swat/SPGT populations. The closest Gangetic influence would be via Purbis from Himachal and they arrive in the medieval period. As to when the area was Brahmanized is speculative as the area by the mid Iron Age was a strong center of Buddhist and Sanskrit learning, Charsada and Taxila to the west even more so.

"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 1.46,
"PAK_Swat_Udegram_IA": 85,
"RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA": 7.5,
"Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX": 5,
"NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 2.5,
"closestDistances": [

Is this to say that they are largely local Dards who were assimilated into Brahminism(presumably by some gangetic wave), with the retention of their Dardic(non-Indic) tongue? I would think so. Even on Harappa, the Kashmiri Pandit samples vary a lot, there are some samples with very little NE euro(2-3%) too, which is strange for any brahmin. Might be an artifact of the calculator (confusion between NE euro and Caucasus) though.
Same, with all other Brahmins, we cannot be certain of the extent to which they are deviated, especially in the North/NW because of the existence of on-paper similar populations.

Another question on a similar note: Given the nature of the Keralan populace, How can one say verily that Nambudiris in their current state aren't something like 80% Nair + 20%"Progenitor Brahmin" (random proportions), as Nairs are already very northern shifted? This coupled with what you said earlier, Nambudiri proportions being inadequate to provide all of the IA admixture in Nairs.


Side note, Member parasar had mentioned the R1a lines among Tamil Brahmins being Z2123/2124, and not the mainstream Indic L657, maybe this would give us some clues. Would be great if he could elaborate.
I see some of these lines among Sri Lankans too, perhaps Ceylon Brahmins? Who knows.

--
I posted from mobile, I hadn't seen that you had updated your post, I will discuss that bit later.

26284729292
06-21-2019, 05:26 AM
I shall look more into origin hypotheses for Tamil Brahmins, but for the time being I am somewhat confident that the UP origin theory may not hold for most of us.
I too was originally convinced of a direct gangetic origin for us, but I recall member 26284729292 posting something that made me reconsider that notion(Gujarati-Maratha model + extra info). If he could reiterate what he had said and share extra info that would be useful. Member Pegasus had shared his thoughts too iirc.

a few, quick runs, with the underlying assumption that SIS3-type castes did exist in abundance:
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 2.3153,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 72.5,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 27.5,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.5834,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 37.5,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.8795,
"Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 63.33,
"Ror": 36.67


Reg Velama etc, they seem to have some Indo-Aryan input as well, as in, non-negligible steppe admixture that cannot be neglected. Entirely possible that their SiS3-ness is somehow a result of IA admixture reducing the AASI levels to the correct proportions.

To my knowledge, Member Kush does not have sufficient Iran_N or the BMAC-ness that would be required to arrive at Sudkol's proportions. Sudkol is a Telugu Brahmin, anyway, and is among the most northern shifted SI brahmin samples(more northern than Varun iirc). He seems like a Kashmiri Pandit + local Dravidian type of thing.

Furthermore, the extent to which one has deviated from the Brahmin form, both wrt "original" Brahmins and local "progenitor" Brahmins is something that cannot easily be arrived at empirically.
Take the case of Kashmiri Pandits who are largely iterations of SGPT types


Is this to say that they are largely local Dards who were assimilated into Brahminism(presumably by some gangetic wave), with the retention of their Dardic(non-Indic) tongue? I would think so. Even on Harappa, the Kashmiri Pandit samples vary a lot, there are some samples with very little NE euro(2-3%) too, which is strange for any brahmin. Might be an artifact of the calculator (confusion between NE euro and Caucasus) though.
Same, with all other Brahmins, we cannot be certain of the extent to which they are deviated, especially in the North/NW because of the existence of on-paper similar populations.

Another question on a similar note: Given the nature of the Keralan populace, How can one say verily that Nambudiris in their current state aren't something like 80% Nair + 20%"Progenitor Brahmin" (random proportions), as Nairs are already very northern shifted? This coupled with what you said earlier, Nambudiri proportions being inadequate to provide all of the IA admixture in Nairs.


Side note, Member parasar had mentioned the R1a lines among Tamil Brahmins being Z2123/2124, and not the mainstream Indic L657, maybe this would give us some clues. Would be great if he could elaborate.
I see some of these lines among Sri Lankans too, perhaps Ceylon Brahmins? Who knows.

--
I posted from mobile, I hadn't seen that you had updated your post, I will discuss that bit later.

Yeah I posted the fit with Marathas +GBR. The gist of it was that similarities in marathi brahmins/their samples which I've seen and overlap between marathi brahmins and nagar brahmins in terms of region (which I corroborated with some town/city names and history) basically alluded to the possibility that GBR (nagar brahmins) were marathi/SI brahmin progenitors in that they may have mixed with marathas moving down the west coast of india, for a presumably political alliance, or something of that sort. The closest fit I've seen for Iyers/south indian brahmins with moderns are GBR+maratha. I won't use my harappa/nmonte as an example because my family has weird admix throughout, but I've seen iyengar/karanataka brahmin/chitpavan/deshastha brahmin samples that all score fairly similarly so to assume that most SI brahmins have a common-ish point of origin certainly isn't out of the question. I will be curious to see my V3 nmonte, as the preliminary fit (as I wrote in the other thread) is already more yamna/barcin/han shifted (about 4% more) than my V5 kit.

26284729292
06-21-2019, 05:30 AM
Yeah I posted the fit with Marathas +GBR. The gist of it was that similarities in marathi brahmins/their samples which I've seen and overlap between marathi brahmins and nagar brahmins in terms of region (which I corroborated with some town/city names and history) basically alluded to the possibility that GBR (nagar brahmins) were marathi/SI brahmin progenitors in that they may have mixed with marathas moving down the west coast of india, for a presumably political alliance, or something of that sort. The closest fit I've seen for Iyers/south indian brahmins with moderns are GBR+maratha. I won't use my harappa/nmonte as an example because my family has weird admix throughout, but I've seen iyengar/karanataka brahmin/chitpavan/deshastha brahmin samples that all score fairly similarly so to assume that most SI brahmins have a common-ish point of origin certainly isn't out of the question. I will be curious to see my V3 nmonte, as the preliminary fit (as I wrote in the other thread) is already more yamna/barcin/han shifted (about 4% more) than my V5 kit.


Re: bmoney's point, I have a few gedmatch relatives (both marathi brahmin surnames and iyer surnames) with extremely heavy SNP overlap with me that have `40% south indian, 38% baloch 8% NE Euro and 8% Caucasian, which are close to GBR proportions, similar to varun.

I think due to SNP's and questionable levels of full endogamy/inter sect differences that may or may not be present in iyer/iyengar subgroupings, there is some natural variation that goes beyond some of the harappa samples that we've been quoting.

TLDR the nambudiri and iyer samples seem to be different, but I have iyer relatives on gedmatch with similar scores to the nambudiri samples, meaning I doubt there's an extremely large difference in ethnogenesis. Now if we could get some more south indian brahmin samples on nmonte...

I have a chitpavan friend I want to get DNA tested.

bmoney
06-24-2019, 01:09 AM
.


To my knowledge, Member Kush does not have sufficient Iran_N or the BMAC-ness that would be required to arrive at Sudkol's proportions. he does actually, model sudkol using UP Brahmin and Kush. Kush has more IranN than UP, Bengali and Nepali Brahmins (ie the Brahmins with the Ror-like Steppe to Iran N ratio) - whether thats BMAC or IVC elite Dravidian (he has more than SISBA3) i dont know. Sudkol is less steppe enriched than Varun and more BMAC/Iran N enriched, hence he pulls more NW than UP and Varun pulls more UP

theres no conclusive argument here, the numbers just arent obvious enough to say anything including proving my per theories as you suggest - G25 runs wont do much right now at this level, getting Gujarat Brahmin w SISBA3 at lower fit than UP Brahmin just means this representation better models the proportions in Iyers - im sure lower fit combos can exist using UP Brahmin and something else and Gujarat Brahmin and something else, so on and so forth - we have to use texts/oral evidence as well

Pegasus point that Gangetic input pulled KPs towards the Ganges - my theory is Brahmins (separate to Vedic mention) had a core brotherhood component related by y-dna (R1a and perhaps R2 heavy and low L/J/H) - likely emerging in the Kuru period out of the Western Gangetic region (Haryana/West UP) but yes people were assimilated into this brotherhood (Manipuri Brahmin etc) or perhaps faked their way in, but the core genetic component from this brotherhood is detectable and IMO absolutely cray given how much endogamy had to take place to keep this signature alive after 1-2k years- my speculation here for all of this

Regardings @282s point - Nambudiris and Iyers are unrelated yep, this is a fact, their similar proportions are due to similar admix ratios

Regarding @282s point on his matches - yes subcastes would matter among Iyers given the earliest ones are literally part of the ethnogenesis of Tamil society side note: this shows Razibs underappreciated point (speculated years ago) that R1a Indo-Aryans were part of the Dravidian exodus south from the start and what we know as Tamil Dravidian culture had a heavy dose of South Asian IA cultural influence in its genesis from these R1a migrant companions (Rishi Agastya from the bloody Rg Veda lmao OG South Asian Indo-Aryan) Likely other Iyers/Iyengars came later and have history of this. Nambudiris are not related to Nagar Brahmins despite what they model as. Marathas score similar to Piramalai and just represent mid-caste Dravidians with a tribal shift (run checkfit on Maratha average to see) - it doesnt say much about Marathi ancestry unless tied to oral/written history

@re R1a - not the expert, parasar is but I doubt R1a z93 lines say anything given all 3 Souh Asian lines (3?) are present everywhere at various proportions. Maybe parasar can read into it but i guarantee youll see UP Brahmin high frequency related R1a lines in Southern Brahmins

@again Gujarat Brahmins - you guys have seen Patel scores - they score basically exacly like Reddys - Gujarat Brahmins (particularly the ones that score like Iyers) are way more likely to be a mix of Brahmins and these Patels than the scenario of Sangam era Iyers being Gujarat Brahmin imports and not mixing for 2k years - to that point, yes it goes deeper than HAP where they look similar on paper but are due to different mixes

bmoney
06-24-2019, 01:15 AM
Yeah I posted the fit with Marathas +GBR. The gist of it was that similarities in marathi brahmins/their samples which I've seen and overlap between marathi brahmins and nagar brahmins in terms of region (which I corroborated with some town/city names and history) basically alluded to the possibility that GBR (nagar brahmins) were marathi/SI brahmin progenitors in that they may have mixed with marathas moving down the west coast of india, for a presumably political alliance, or something of that sort. The closest fit I've seen for Iyers/south indian brahmins with moderns are GBR+maratha. I won't use my harappa/nmonte as an example because my family has weird admix throughout, but I've seen iyengar/karanataka brahmin/chitpavan/deshastha brahmin samples that all score fairly similarly so to assume that most SI brahmins have a common-ish point of origin certainly isn't out of the question. I will be curious to see my V3 nmonte, as the preliminary fit (as I wrote in the other thread) is already more yamna/barcin/han shifted (about 4% more) than my V5 kit.

yep they do have commonish point of origin - West UP origin R1a heavy Brahmin founders mixing with local elites at different levels - at different timelines :P

Not all related to Nagar Brahmins from Gujarat like your subcaste (i know this is not your position but making my point clear)

26284729292
06-24-2019, 01:43 AM
he does actually, model sudkol using UP Brahmin and Kush. Kush has more IranN than UP, Bengali and Nepali Brahmins (ie the Brahmins with the Ror-like Steppe to Iran N ratio) - whether thats BMAC or IVC elite Dravidian (he has more than SISBA3) i dont know

theres no conclusive argument here, the numbers just arent obvious enough to say anything including proving my per theories as you suggest - G25 runs wont do much right now at this level, getting Gujarat Brahmin w SISBA3 at lower fit than UP Brahmin just means this representation better models the proportions in Iyers - im sure lower fit combos can exist using UP Brahmin and something else and Gujarat Brahmin and something else, so on and so forth - we have to use texts/oral evidence as well

Pegasus point that Gangetic input pulled KPs towards the Ganges - my theory is Brahmins (separate to Vedic mention) had a core brotherhood component related by y-dna (R1a and perhaps R2 heavy and low L/J/H) - likely emerging in the Kuru period out of the Western Gangetic region (Haryana/West UP) but yes people were assimilated into this brotherhood (Manipuri Brahmin etc) or perhaps faked their way in, but the core genetic component from this brotherhood is detectable and IMO absolutely cray given how much endogamy had to take place to keep this signature alive after 1-2k years- my speculation here for all of this

Regardings @282s point - Nambudiris and Iyers are unrelated yep, this is a fact, their similar proportions are due to similar admix ratios

Regarding @282s point on his matches - yes subcastes would matter among Iyers given the earliest ones are literally part of the ethnogenesis of Tamil society side note: this shows Razibs underappreciated point (speculated years ago) that R1a Indo-Aryans were part of the Dravidian exodus south from the start and what we know as Tamil Dravidian culture had a heavy dose of South Asian IA cultural influence in its genesis from these R1a migrant companions (Rishi Agastya from bloody Rg Veda lmao OG South Asian Indo-Aryan) Likely other Iyers/Iyengars came later and have history of this. Nambudiris are not related to Nagar Brahmins despite what they model as. Marathas score similar to Piramalai and just represent mid-caste Dravidians with a tribal shift (run checkfit on Maratha average to see) - it doesnt say much about Marathi ancestry unless tied to oral/written history

@re R1a - not the expert, parasar is but I doubt R1a z93 lines say anything given all 3 Souh Asian lines (3?) are present everywhere at various proportions. Maybe parasar can read into it but i guarantee youll see UP Brahmin high frequency related R1a lines in Southern Brahmins

@again Gujarat Brahmins - you guys have seen Patel scores - they score basically exacly like Reddys - Gujarat Brahmins (particularly the ones that score like Iyers) are way more likely to be a mix of Brahmins and these Patels than the scenario of Sangam era Iyers being Gujarat Brahmin imports and not mixing for 2k years - to that point, yes it goes deeper than HAP where they look similar on paper but are due to different mixes

You have some fair points. Theoretically, we can arrive from point A to point B with 2 different founding groups, e.g. Gujarati Brahmin+X=iyer, or UP brahmin+Y=iyer.

The problem is I can't think of a good group that would "dilute" the step reasonably severely while keeping the AASI reasonably the same. Do you have any UP brahmin +Y models?

I know that tamil nadu has inflow from the west coast of India. UP is certainly possible, but I haven't seen the literature for it.

26284729292
06-24-2019, 01:43 AM
yep they do have commonish point of origin - West UP origin R1a heavy Brahmin founders mixing with local elites at different levels - at different timelines :P

Not all related to Nagar Brahmins from Gujarat like your subcaste (i know this is not your position but making my point clear)

Yeah of course. I gotcha. It's a good discourse overall.

bmoney
06-24-2019, 02:11 AM
@re Nambudiris being Nairs plus 20% Brahmin - theres a long history here which i pieced together over a long time using a lot of data (including genetic here) to speculate to answer this. its actually quite relevant to the history of Kerala as I mentioned earlier, their separation from original Tamil culture, and due to the caste madness Swami Vivekananda commented on when he visited Kerala

the facts are:

Some Nairs (like me), model as 95% Nambudiri lets say. However i am fortunate that our family keeps records and we have no Brahmin heritage both orally (explicitly so due to rivalry according to some relatives) and via documentation 4 generations not one Brahmin ancestor. Some of the most North shifted Nairs Vishankar posted (also model as near complete Nambudiri) are from my community or region and also have no Brahmin ancestry. so at GGG stage (5th) i might have one or more, but their contribution (3.12% times 2 or 3 at most) is not enough to make me score like a 90% Nambudiri.

Ezhavas/Thiyyas (mid caste Kerala) however do not score like this subset of Nairs (near 100 position for me on checkfit, I even get WB Brahmin before) probably even further from the more north shifted Nambiars on checkfit

Sambandham happened (wikipedia) - but it was a minority among the Nair community (wikipedia), and either not known or uncommon among subsets of the community or regions. My community (Nambiars) I heard of it from wikipedia and upon broaching it with family, distaste was expressed at the concept and said our caste do not practice it

the fact that Nambudiris speculate on Nair/Bunt origins as from a similar location to them in their texts (i think specifically to Kiriath Nairs?) and recognise them as Sudras speaks to the fact that their migration pattern was the same and actually plays to their texts suggesting migrating Sudras. There is no way Nambudiris would engineer a downfall of the Dravidian Cheras and put themselves as top of the food chain in Kerala without an army and I speculate that this army was the Nairs who:

- do not mix with other Kerala castes and do not share an origin history with Ezhava/Thiyyas who have a Buddhist origin

- show ridiculous reverence to Brahmins often mocked by other castes, which makes no sense if they were dispossessed by Brahmin invaders who turned Kerala inside out by throwing books? why would they lay down their arms and religiously enforce Brahmin pollution rules against their Dravidian brothers, give their women for Brahmin purification and maintain Hinduism and Vedic study because some northern Brahmin migrants told them to? The alternate theory posits that Nairs were local Dravidians who Brahmins hired for protection, but where did Brahmins get this wealth and reverence if not from conquest?

- Pre-Brahmin Dravidian rulers have no reason rationally to again fawn over Brahmins and give away all of their lands and adopt a Hindu religious system (pre Hindu Kerala was Jain/Buddhist/Agamic) where they become Sudras in the new system lower than Brahmins, unless they were planted/installed there as part of the same conquest of Dravidian Kerala. This meant they obviously were on the same side as the Brahmins due similar culture/appreciation and due to antagonism of local rulers who they took over from, and were recognized as low caste by their co-migrationists who knew of their origins. The previous rules who were called Cheras were of Ay/Villavar ancestry and spoke Tamil. The wealthier of these new Nair rulers/usurpers of low caste northern origin remained Sudra in Brahmin eyes and therefore spent real money buying legitimate Kshatriyahood. This behaviour would make no sense/irrational for the pre-existing rulers who had their own system and religion

- Ezhavas have a history of being kings in their past and of Buddhist origin, whereas some Nairs clans actually run village Hindu temples without Brahmin presence and as such were integral to the establishment/promotion of Hinduism in the land - both the castes origins (Nairs and Ezhavas) and their 'sides' were antagonistic. Ezhavas were also dumped into Avarnahood in the new system and largely outcasted into polluting occupations like alcohol fermentation (toddy tapping) whereas they formerly were rulers, warriors, vaidya practitioners (some subcastes kept their occupations though still considered avarna)

- Nairs dont score like Ezhavas, though it is likely that the most distinct Nairs from Ezhavas genetically are northern (ie closer to the original Brahmin settlements) and of the higher subdivisions of the community - as they were extremely distrustful of other Nair castes and did not mix, perhaps due to knowing assimilations taking place in the Nair community. They also were desperate to outrank their low caste Nair nature and give themselves new titles to separate themselves from the Nair masses such as 'Samanta Kshatriya' or Samantan. There is no doubt Nairs have various levels of Dravidian mix though, as do Bunts, my y-dna for example

- Some Nairs and Bunts do model as low to mid caste UP with local admixture

So long answer to a short question is no, Nambudiris arent Nairs with UP Brahmin admix, rather Nairs (proto Nair/Bunt) are northern migrants of mid/low caste origin with local Dravidian mix in various levels. The Nair community also assimilated local groups as eventually in Kerala Nair/soldier became synonymous whereas in Tulu Nadu Bunts remained as an ethnic caste

The reason I score like an Iyer is related to how Iyers and UP Kayastha (mid caste) score similar in Harappa - UP mid-castes score like Iyers and Nairs received their UP/Indo-Aryan shift from a UP mid-low caste base as per texts (overall reliability is dubious however genetic data lines up in this case)

bmoney
06-24-2019, 05:06 AM
You have some fair points. Theoretically, we can arrive from point A to point B with 2 different founding groups, e.g. Gujarati Brahmin+X=iyer, or UP brahmin+Y=iyer.

The problem is I can't think of a good group that would "dilute" the step reasonably severely while keeping the AASI reasonably the same. Do you have any UP brahmin +Y models?

I know that tamil nadu has inflow from the west coast of India. UP is certainly possible, but I haven't seen the literature for it.

Could you elaborate on the West Coast link in regards to Iyers?

kush
06-24-2019, 05:17 AM
Could you elaborate on the West Coast link in regards to Iyers?

I think someone brought this up already but don't iyers score high baloch and caucasian unlike UP brahmins so that might be indicating a western origin for tamil brahmins?

bmoney
06-24-2019, 05:28 AM
I think someone brought this up already but don't iyers score high baloch and caucasian unlike UP brahmins so that might be indicating a western origin for tamil brahmins?

yes, which i think can be modelled with Iyers mixing with a Patel like Dravidian Tamil elite source just like Sudkol can be modelled realistically using Reddy + UP Brahmin.

For Iyers to be pure Gujarat Brahmins which can they modelled as almost fully (AASI/Iran N shifted GBR samples exist), it would require them to not to mix with Tamils for 2k years which is unrealistic

If Gujarat is to be presented as a source you would need some level of historical/oral nature which I believe exists for some subcastes but not the whole

Also the fact that Brahmins have been there from the start of Tamil literary history, I think is more likely Brahmins of that era came from the source of Brahmins, which doesnt seem to be low steppe Gujarat and more likely to be high Ror to IranN Haryana/West UP Brahmins - which is also a region of historical significance for Indo-Aryan culture and the location of the first organised IA kingdom in South Asia the Kuru kingdom

But yes Gujarat could be the source who knows, all speculation here

client
06-24-2019, 08:59 AM
member sudkol cannot be modeled as member Kush + UP brahmin
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 3.5206,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 85.83,
"Kush": 14.17,

but-
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 1.8759,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 74.17,
"Kush": 25.83,

sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 2.1864,
"Kashmiri_Pandit": 51.67,
"Kush": 48.33,
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 2.1065,
"Kush": 50.83,
"Khatri": 49.17,

he clearly has an NW pull as is apparent from his harappa results-

1 S-Indian 42.04
2 Baloch 34.09
3 Caucasian 9.98
4 NE-Euro 6.56
5 SE-Asian 1.26
6 Mediterranean 1.18
7 Beringian 1.18
8 SW-Asian 1.13
9 NE-Asian 1.07
10 Papuan 0.71
11 American 0.55
12 Siberian 0.26


His "South Indian" is already UP Brahmin tier so he can't be modeled with a group that is more SI shifted. I doubt "Ror-like" proto brahmins ever directly entered southern India.
--

I don't understand why you mention Iyers separately, when they are not a monolith. Vadama, Brahacharanam, Vathima, Ashtasahasram subsects all arrived after Choliya and Sivacharyars(the groups you say are mentioned in early texts). The latter were overwhelmed by the former. They were some of the earliest pancha Dravida Brahmins.
(Vadakalai) Iyengars who trace their origin to Ramanuja's period formed later on as a Vadama offshoot:

The Vaishnavite spiritual leader Ramanuja is generally believed to have been born a Vadama. Under his tutelage, numerous Vadamas adopted Vaishnavism and are believed to have given rise to the Vadakalai Iyengar community.

Thenkalai Iyengars are more focused on Tamil-based scripture, while Vadakalai place emphasis on Sanskrit. Also:


Scholars offer divergent views on the relative approach of the two sub-traditions on caste and gender. Raman states that Tenkalai did not recognize caste barriers and were more liberal in assimilating people from all castes, possibly because this had been the tradition at Srirangam from the earliest days of Sri Vaishnavism.[90] In contrast, Sadarangani states that it was Vatakalai who were more liberal and who did not recognize caste barriers, possibly because they were competing with the egalitarian Vira-Shaiva Hindus (Lingayatism) of Karnataka.[91]

The Thenkalai tradition brought into their fold artisanal castes (Shudras) into community-based devotional movements, and writes Raman, "it can almost be said that the Tenkalai represented the anti-caste tendencies while the Vadakalai school championed the cause of purity of the Vedic tenets."[90] The Tenkalai held, adds Raman, that anyone can be a spiritual teacher regardless of caste
These groups often clash due to their conflicting beliefs.

I personally couldn't care less about the religious specifics, and obviously beliefs alone needn't reflect in genetic profile, but it serves as a plausible parameter. I don't even know what sect I belong to.


meme material:
muh endogamy

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"closestDistances": [
"Onge:undefined: 25.15776",
"Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 29.28541"

"sample": "Test2:Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh",
"closestDistances": [
"Onge:undefined: 26.97834",
"Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 27.56268"

vishankar
06-24-2019, 04:04 PM
@re Nambudiris being Nairs plus 20% Brahmin - theres a long history here which i pieced together over a long time using a lot of data (including genetic here) to speculate to answer this. its actually quite relevant to the history of Kerala as I mentioned earlier, their separation from original Tamil culture, and due to the caste madness Swami Vivekananda commented on when he visited Kerala

the facts are:

Some Nairs (like me), model as 95% Nambudiri lets say. However i am fortunate that our family keeps records and we have no Brahmin heritage both orally (explicitly so due to rivalry according to some relatives) and via documentation 4 generations not one Brahmin ancestor. Some of the most North shifted Nairs Vishankar posted (also model as near complete Nambudiri) are from my community or region and also have no Brahmin ancestry. so at GGG stage (5th) i might have one or more, but their contribution (3.12% times 2 or 3 at most) is not enough to make me score like a 90% Nambudiri.

Ezhavas/Thiyyas (mid caste Kerala) however do not score like this subset of Nairs (near 100 position for me on checkfit, I even get WB Brahmin before) probably even further from the more north shifted Nambiars on checkfit

Sambandham happened (wikipedia) - but it was a minority among the Nair community (wikipedia), and either not known or uncommon among subsets of the community or regions. My community (Nambiars) I heard of it from wikipedia and upon broaching it with family, distaste was expressed at the concept and said our caste do not practice it

the fact that Nambudiris speculate on Nair/Bunt origins as from a similar location to them in their texts (i think specifically to Kiriath Nairs?) and recognise them as Sudras speaks to the fact that their migration pattern was the same and actually plays to their texts suggesting migrating Sudras. There is no way Nambudiris would engineer a downfall of the Dravidian Cheras and put themselves as top of the food chain in Kerala without an army and I speculate that this army was the Nairs who:

- do not mix with other Kerala castes and do not share an origin history with Ezhava/Thiyyas who have a Buddhist origin

- show ridiculous reverence to Brahmins often mocked by other castes, which makes no sense if they were dispossessed by Brahmin invaders who turned Kerala inside out by throwing books? why would they lay down their arms and religiously enforce Brahmin pollution rules against their Dravidian brothers, give their women for Brahmin purification and maintain Hinduism and Vedic study because some northern Brahmin migrants told them to? The alternate theory posits that Nairs were local Dravidians who Brahmins hired for protection, but where did Brahmins get this wealth and reverence if not from conquest?

- Pre-Brahmin Dravidian rulers have no reason rationally to again fawn over Brahmins and give away all of their lands and adopt a Hindu religious system (pre Hindu Kerala was Jain/Buddhist/Agamic) where they become Sudras in the new system lower than Brahmins, unless they were planted/installed there as part of the same conquest of Dravidian Kerala. This meant they obviously were on the same side as the Brahmins due similar culture/appreciation and due to antagonism of local rulers who they took over from, and were recognized as low caste by their co-migrationists who knew of their origins. The previous rules who were called Cheras were of Ay/Villavar ancestry and spoke Tamil. The wealthier of these new Nair rulers/usurpers of low caste northern origin remained Sudra in Brahmin eyes and therefore spent real money buying legitimate Kshatriyahood. This behaviour would make no sense/irrational for the pre-existing rulers who had their own system and religion

- Ezhavas have a history of being kings in their past and of Buddhist origin, whereas some Nairs clans actually run village Hindu temples without Brahmin presence and as such were integral to the establishment/promotion of Hinduism in the land - both the castes origins (Nairs and Ezhavas) and their 'sides' were antagonistic. Ezhavas were also dumped into Avarnahood in the new system and largely outcasted into polluting occupations like alcohol fermentation (toddy tapping) whereas they formerly were rulers, warriors, vaidya practitioners (some subcastes kept their occupations though still considered avarna)

- Nairs dont score like Ezhavas, though it is likely that the most distinct Nairs from Ezhavas genetically are northern (ie closer to the original Brahmin settlements) and of the higher subdivisions of the community - as they were extremely distrustful of other Nair castes and did not mix, perhaps due to knowing assimilations taking place in the Nair community. They also were desperate to outrank their low caste Nair nature and give themselves new titles to separate themselves from the Nair masses such as 'Samanta Kshatriya' or Samantan. There is no doubt Nairs have various levels of Dravidian mix though, as do Bunts, my y-dna for example

- Some Nairs and Bunts do model as low to mid caste UP with local admixture

So long answer to a short question is no, Nambudiris arent Nairs with UP Brahmin admix, rather Nairs (proto Nair/Bunt) are northern migrants of mid/low caste origin with local Dravidian mix in various levels. The Nair community also assimilated local groups as eventually in Kerala Nair/soldier became synonymous whereas in Tulu Nadu Bunts remained as an ethnic caste

The reason I score like an Iyer is related to how Iyers and UP Kayastha (mid caste) score similar in Harappa - UP mid-castes score like Iyers and Nairs received their UP/Indo-Aryan shift from a UP mid-low caste base as per texts (overall reliability is dubious however genetic data lines up in this case)



I agree that the nambudiris could not have made it to kerala, without a band of faithful bodyguards/ retainers- possibly the proto -nair,similar would be the case of the tulu shivalli brahmins- Bunts,I am planning to read the Keralolpathi, which is the story of Nambudiri migration TO READ WHAT IT REALLY SAYS!, this ahichatra theory has to be substantiated,again I doubt whether the nambudiris started from present day UP with Kerala as their destination,( unless the legendary Parashuram, directed them to settle in Kerala, as the scriptures say!)
regarding the bunt nair genetics, the unmixed with brahmin samples appear to be the Bunt in my data set as well the Trivandrum Nair lady,the Bunts are fiercely endogamous! as for the trivandrum sample, as far as I am given to understand it is from the southern most trivandrum where Nambudiris are very scarce, if at all sambandham has occured it would be with Tamil Brahmins!
Again my own co- brother( surname Adiyodi- Kiriyath Nair- ) co- brother is indianized english for sister-in -law husband!) , his maternal grandpa is a nambuthiri and another wife's relative, Nair from Taliparamba has a living Nambuthiri blood relative!, so to generalise Kiriyath Nairs as lacking Nambudiri admixture is wishful thinking!
It has not occured on the scale of south and central kerala, but it definitely has occured in North Malabar!
I would think it is dependent on families of kiriyath Nairs- Nambiars on whether they wished to allow Sambandham.

bmoney
06-25-2019, 12:44 AM
member sudkol cannot be modeled as member Kush + UP brahmin
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 3.5206,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 85.83,
"Kush": 14.17,

but-
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 1.8759,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 74.17,
"Kush": 25.83,

sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 2.1864,
"Kashmiri_Pandit": 51.67,
"Kush": 48.33,
"sample": "Test1:sudkol_AGUser",
"fit": 2.1065,
"Kush": 50.83,
"Khatri": 49.17,

he clearly has an NW pull as is apparent from his harappa results-

1 S-Indian 42.04
2 Baloch 34.09
3 Caucasian 9.98
4 NE-Euro 6.56
5 SE-Asian 1.26
6 Mediterranean 1.18
7 Beringian 1.18
8 SW-Asian 1.13
9 NE-Asian 1.07
10 Papuan 0.71
11 American 0.55
12 Siberian 0.26


His "South Indian" is already UP Brahmin tier so he can't be modeled with a group that is more SI shifted. I doubt "Ror-like" proto brahmins ever directly entered southern India.
--

I don't understand why you mention Iyers separately, when they are not a monolith. Vadama, Brahacharanam, Vathima, Ashtasahasram subsects all arrived after Choliya and Sivacharyars(the groups you say are mentioned in early texts). The latter were overwhelmed by the former. They were some of the earliest pancha Dravida Brahmins.
(Vadakalai) Iyengars who trace their origin to Ramanuja's period formed later on as a Vadama offshoot:


Thenkalai Iyengars are more focused on Tamil-based scripture, while Vadakalai place emphasis on Sanskrit. Also:


These groups often clash due to their conflicting beliefs.

I personally couldn't care less about the religious specifics, and obviously beliefs alone needn't reflect in genetic profile, but it serves as a plausible parameter. I don't even know what sect I belong to.


meme material:
muh endogamy

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"closestDistances": [
"Onge:undefined: 25.15776",
"Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 29.28541"

"sample": "Test2:Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh",
"closestDistances": [
"Onge:undefined: 26.97834",
"Sintashta_MLBA:undefined: 27.56268"


Use Nepali Brahmin or Mahadev Dubey instead and give it a go for sudkol, ill model something tonight

And i specifically referred to Iyer subcastes being different. Im not really sure what a proportion the subcastes make up but the majority of HAP and G25 Tamil_Brahmin and Iyer samples score similar so likely not a huge % (assuming no major sampling bias)


I doubt "Ror-like" proto brahmins ever directly entered southern India.

based on what?

- I have already shown that Ror-like ancestry is enriched in Nepali, WB, UP, Rajasthan Brahmins in comparison to their more Swat_IA like autosome, Gujarati and Konkan Brahmins show a different profile
- Nambudiris, Havyaka, Shivalli Brahmins claim to be from Ahichatra, near the border of Pahari and Gangetic lands, not Gujarat. As I showed, Nambudiris score very similar to UP Brahmins on HAP
- where are the West Coast literary/oral references to Iyer origins?
- sudkol is more northern (NW not Gangetic) shifted than most Iyers, it might be the case that he has NW Brahmin ancestry - im not ruling it out, just saying look at all the possibilities, i have already asked him if his subcaste has a distinct nature to Telugu Brahmins, he said no IIRC. Telugu Brahmins on HAP score like Iyers and not like his HAP score at all
- you keep using Gujarat Brahmins to model Iyers, yes they fit well, yet virtually genetically Reddy Patels exist in Gujarat and some GBRs score like Iyers which implies that Iyers have to be straight imports with minimal Tamil admix
- Gujarat Brahmins can model all South Indian mid+high castes well too, it doesnt mean they are all from Gujarat, You can even run Syrian Christian members here with good fit using GBR + Piramalai or Maratha

bmoney
06-25-2019, 01:02 AM
I agree that the nambudiris could not have made it to kerala, without a band of faithful bodyguards/ retainers- possibly the proto -nair,similar would be the case of the tulu shivalli brahmins- Bunts,I am planning to read the Keralolpathi, which is the story of Nambudiri migration TO READ WHAT IT REALLY SAYS!, this ahichatra theory has to be substantiated,again I doubt whether the nambudiris started from present day UP with Kerala as their destination,( unless the legendary Parashuram, directed them to settle in Kerala, as the scriptures say!)
regarding the bunt nair genetics, the unmixed with brahmin samples appear to be the Bunt in my data set as well the Trivandrum Nair lady,the Bunts are fiercely endogamous! as for the trivandrum sample, as far as I am given to understand it is from the southern most trivandrum where Nambudiris are very scarce, if at all sambandham has occured it would be with Tamil Brahmins!
Again my own co- brother( surname Adiyodi- Kiriyath Nair- ) co- brother is indianized english for sister-in -law husband!) , his maternal grandpa is a nambuthiri and another wife's relative, Nair from Taliparamba has a living Nambuthiri blood relative!, so to generalise Kiriyath Nairs as lacking Nambudiri admixture is wishful thinking!
It has not occured on the scale of south and central kerala, but it definitely has occured in North Malabar!
I would think it is dependent on families of kiriyath Nairs- Nambiars on whether they wished to allow Sambandham.

- Youre right, we dont have reliable stats on Sambandham prevalence, i read a previous version of the wikpedia Nair article which said it was a small % but you might have a better estimate

-
again I doubt whether the Nambudiris started from present day UP with Kerala as their destination actually they score nothing like Ezhava/Thiyyas and almost resemble the less steppe shifted UP Brahmins thousands of kilometres away (Harappa) who they are much closer to than most Kerala inhabitants to this day. They brought a new language Manipravalam and brought the shift from Tamil-Grantha Tamil script used by the Ay/Villavar Kingdom to Tigalari Grantha derived Vatulettu script in Kerala, both again quite contrasting to what was there before. Who else used the Tigalari script? Shivalli and Havyak Brahmins again suggesting the same origin

It was used by Tulu-speaking Brahmins like Shivalli Brahmins and Kannada speaking Havyaka Brahmins and Kota Brahmins to write Vedic mantras and other Sanskrit religious texts.

It later evolved into Tigalari-Malayalam script was used by the Malayali, Havyaka Brahmins and Tulu Brahmin people, but was originally only applied to write Sanskrit. This script split into two scripts: Tigalari and Malayalam.

The generally held view is that Malayalam was the western coastal dialect of Tamil[20] and separated from Tamil sometime between the 9th and 13th centuries.[21]

This is why we have genetics, and surprisingly it seems to validate that Brahmin texts do have elements of truth. Same with R1a correlation with Brahmins loosely reflecting the gotra patrilineal system. So basically the native inhabitants of Kerala have a very divergent genetic profile to Brahmins - and also contrasts when you compare Ezhavas to Paniyas who again score nothing alike - something like 3 waves of genetic profiles seem likely for the state, Narasimhans ASI (Paniya), a SISBA3 type profile South-Dravidian (Ezhavas/Thiyyas) wave building the base for Kerala, and a minor steppe infusion and language/culture/religion shift from the 2nd Chera era to shift Kerala distinctively from Tamil culture. Distance doesnt seem to be huge determinant of genetics in some cases when you get Kamma resembling populations in SE Iran (Shahr i Sokhta) and Rajasthani lower caste derived pops in the UK (Romanichal)

Of course the Eastern Christian wave also hugely impacted the state as did migrating traders from the Middle East - minimally genetically, but significantly culturally

- Sambandham didnt occur in any significance in Nambiars, im related to the largest clans by numbers of the region and there is literally no mention or memory of this anywhere. Nambiars did mix with Varmas like Nileshwar Rajas (who are likely Nair by genetics). Regarding Ambalavasis and non-Nambiar/Nayanar Nair clans like Vaniya, maybe you are correct.

- Also separately Ambalavasis are also likely of the same origin as Nairs and contrast with Ezhava/Thiyyas

26284729292
06-25-2019, 01:17 AM
yes, which i think can be modelled with Iyers mixing with a Patel like Dravidian Tamil elite source just like Sudkol can be modelled realistically using Reddy + UP Brahmin.

For Iyers to be pure Gujarat Brahmins which can they modelled as almost fully (AASI/Iran N shifted GBR samples exist), it would require them to not to mix with Tamils for 2k years which is unrealistic

If Gujarat is to be presented as a source you would need some level of historical/oral nature which I believe exists for some subcastes but not the whole

Also the fact that Brahmins have been there from the start of Tamil literary history, I think is more likely Brahmins of that era came from the source of Brahmins, which doesnt seem to be low steppe Gujarat and more likely to be high Ror to IranN Haryana/West UP Brahmins - which is also a region of historical significance for Indo-Aryan culture and the location of the first organised IA kingdom in South Asia the Kuru kingdom

But yes Gujarat could be the source who knows, all speculation here

I'm not sure politically who the dravidian elite in tamil nadu were. The state lacks true Kshatriyas and kallars/mudialars hardly have been considered a ruling group IIRC at any point.

Remember that "tamil" brahmins are just brahmins that live in tamil nadu, rather than tamilians who happen to be brahmin. I know you know this. But it is a very important distinction to make.

I do think it was more likely that tambrams came in in their "fully formed" ethnic state, than came directly into tamil nadu and then mixed with the dravidian elite. This is especially true because brahmins in karnataka score quite similarly. I would have to look into karnataka brahmins a bit more, but this may provide a credible link.

I could be wrong, but considering the sheer distance between the NW/gangetic plains and the state, this seems most likely.

For most iyer/iyengar groupings, there's a frustrating lack of direct evidence IIRC. I'll have to look into it more.

bmoney
06-25-2019, 01:31 AM
I'm not sure politically who the dravidian elite in tamil nadu were. The state lacks true Kshatriyas and kallars/mudialars hardly have been considered a ruling group IIRC at any point.

Remember that "tamil" brahmins are just brahmins that live in tamil nadu, rather than tamilians who happen to be brahmin. I know you know this. But it is a very important distinction to make.

I do think it was more likely that tambrams came in in their "fully formed" ethnic state, than came directly into tamil nadu and then mixed with the dravidian elite. This is especially true because brahmins in karnataka score quite similarly. I would have to look into karnataka brahmins a bit more, but this may provide a credible link.

I could be wrong, but considering the sheer distance between the NW/gangetic plains and the state, this seems most likely.

For most iyer/iyengar groupings, there's a frustrating lack of direct evidence IIRC. I'll have to look into it more.

Iyer and Karnataka Brahmin similarity or any southern Brahmin similarity could be due to a proto-South-Brahmin diffusion as client and you speculate, but I think its more likely a UP Brahmin like pop mixing with the local elite, as UP Brahmins are not that different on Harappa and each Brahmin caste appear at different timelines, for example Nambudiris are mentioned far later than Iyers in TN- they only become a recognisable segment at the close of the 8th Century AD

Tradition has it that Brahmanans (Namboothiri) were established in Kerala in sixtyfour villages. However, in this context Kerala means the land between Gokarnam and Kanyakumari. Thirtytwo of them are said to be between Gokarnam Perumpuzha in Tulunadu.In seeking to identify the remaining 32, to the south of Perumpuzha river in Kerala proper, it could be seen that eighteen have yielded inscriptions from the locality itself mentioning the village settlement, four figure prominently in inscriptions from other places, three are mentioned in contemporary or near-contemporary wors and six have carried to this day their continuing Brahmanical traditions and temples. In fact twentythree of them survive today. Thirtyone out of thirtytwo could, therefore, be identified satisfactorily. Apart from these thirtytwo original villages, several others emerged by fusing together elements from the already existing ones. Thus, many Upagramams and other independent settlements developed, constituting a network throughout Kerala, with command over land, a large number of tenants and the entailing feudal privileges. In fact, by the close of the eighth century, the Brahmanan settlements had become a vital force in society to such an extent that society itself was completely reoriented with these groups as the superior elements. This has been shown to be one of the causative factors in the revival of the Chera kingdom. The power of these settlements was expressed through the king's council known as the Nalu Tali, which represented the brahmanan settlements of Kerala in the Chera capital, Mahodayapuram. (Click Here for a full list of 32 villages.)

The Brahmin influenced language shift happened around the same time, lining up exactly, the start of the 9th century

The generally held view is that Malayalam was the western coastal dialect of Tamil[20] and separated from Tamil sometime between the 9th and 13th centuries.[21]

Again most Iyers/Iyengars score the same, a subset score more northern. Soulblighter IIRC scores like the bulk Iyers and hes Vadama, also most Iyengars score like the bulk of Iyers in HAP as I posted before. Im pretty sure the numerical majority are less northern shifted than Varun and by this I derive that their genetic base has been in Tamil Nadu for a long time, which lines up with the fact that they are mentioned in the Sangam era

Kallars/Mudalaliars might not work, but Reddys/Kammas exist in AP and I speculate that a class like this mixed with proto-Iyer

Separately i think our mtdna M30 is a more recent northern South Asian haplogroup and might indicate more recent (than the initial Dravidian wave) ancestry

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-25-2019, 01:51 AM
I'm not sure politically who the dravidian elite in tamil nadu were. The state lacks true Kshatriyas and kallars/mudialars hardly have been considered a ruling group IIRC at any point.

Remember that "tamil" brahmins are just brahmins that live in tamil nadu, rather than tamilians who happen to be brahmin. I know you know this. But it is a very important distinction to make.

I do think it was more likely that tambrams came in in their "fully formed" ethnic state, than came directly into tamil nadu and then mixed with the dravidian elite. This is especially true because brahmins in karnataka score quite similarly. I would have to look into karnataka brahmins a bit more, but this may provide a credible link.

I could be wrong, but considering the sheer distance between the NW/gangetic plains and the state, this seems most likely.

For most iyer/iyengar groupings, there's a frustrating lack of direct evidence IIRC. I'll have to look into it more.

Do Tamil and Malayali Brahmins not have a common origin? and where do they tie in with Karnataka Brahmins? or are Karnataka Brahmins partially or fully Tamil Brahmin emigres?

client
06-25-2019, 03:40 AM
What are the R1a lines among Nairs, Nambudiris, Tulu Brahmins etc etc?

Member parasar had stated in this a while ago:

:)
Unlike us though the Tamil Brahmans happen to be predominantly on the parallel Z2124 line - Z2123 mainly. This the type that is all over the steppe, not our line. This distribution has been surprising - where the Tamil Brahmans and northern Indus Pakhtoons, Kalash, etc are predominantly Z2124 and the southern Indus and Gangetic R1a1 are mainly L657. So I think perhaps L657 made it to South Asia bypassing Andronovo.

I see some Z2124 lines among Sri Lankans too(Ceylon Brahmins? Mudaliars?).

It's entirely possible that early R1a lines among Vedic folk were diverse but L657 prevailed in the north, but the founding populations of Tamil Brahmins were of a different line and Z2124s prevailed among them through bottlenecks

bmoney
06-26-2019, 12:49 AM
What are the R1a lines among Nairs, Nambudiris, Tulu Brahmins etc etc?

Member parasar had stated in this a while ago:


I see some Z2124 lines among Sri Lankans too(Ceylon Brahmins? Mudaliars?).

It's entirely possible that early R1a lines among Vedic folk were diverse but L657 prevailed in the north, but the founding populations of Tamil Brahmins were of a different line and Z2124s prevailed among them through bottlenecks

Cant say if R1a subclade will prove it but Vishankar (Nair) is L657. But yes to your implication, i do expect Havyak/Shivalli/Nambudiri/Nair R1a subclades proportions to more match UP Brahmins due to more recent timeframes

I think Iyers will also have every subclade probably and any subclade proportional prevalence is due to bottleneck/founder signatures rather than origins. Im sure Gangetic Brahmins have Z2124

Its better to look at R1a/nonR1a split and certainly i expect Nambudiris/Tulu/Havyak Brahmins to be higher R1a% than Iyer/Iyengars who might have more G/J/L as a proportion due to more elite Dravidian paternal contribution

G/J/L is low in the Gangetic region except for J2b. South Indians, Gujaratis and NW'ers are majority J2a compared to J2b

@parasar what do these R1a Nairs fall under:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

I have funded Vishankar to get a Nambudiri and a Nambiar y-signature analysed, he should come back with an update soon

Suku
06-26-2019, 04:27 PM
- Youre right, we dont have reliable stats on Sambandham prevalence, i read a previous version of the wikpedia Nair article which said it was a small % but you might have a better estimate

- actually they score nothing like Ezhava/Thiyyas and almost resemble the less steppe shifted UP Brahmins thousands of kilometres away (Harappa) who they are much closer to than most Kerala inhabitants to this day. They brought a new language Manipravalam and brought the shift from Tamil-Grantha Tamil script used by the Ay/Villavar Kingdom to Tigalari Grantha derived Vatulettu script in Kerala, both again quite contrasting to what was there before. Who else used the Tigalari script? Shivalli and Havyak Brahmins again suggesting the same origin

It was used by Tulu-speaking Brahmins like Shivalli Brahmins and Kannada speaking Havyaka Brahmins and Kota Brahmins to write Vedic mantras and other Sanskrit religious texts.

It later evolved into Tigalari-Malayalam script was used by the Malayali, Havyaka Brahmins and Tulu Brahmin people, but was originally only applied to write Sanskrit. This script split into two scripts: Tigalari and Malayalam.

The generally held view is that Malayalam was the western coastal dialect of Tamil[20] and separated from Tamil sometime between the 9th and 13th centuries.[21]

This is why we have genetics, and surprisingly it seems to validate that Brahmin texts do have elements of truth. Same with R1a correlation with Brahmins loosely reflecting the gotra patrilineal system. So basically the native inhabitants of Kerala have a very divergent genetic profile to Brahmins - and also contrasts when you compare Ezhavas to Paniyas who again score nothing alike - something like 3 waves of genetic profiles seem likely for the state, Narasimhans ASI (Paniya), a SISBA3 type profile South-Dravidian (Ezhavas/Thiyyas) wave building the base for Kerala, and a minor steppe infusion and language/culture/religion shift from the 2nd Chera era to shift Kerala distinctively from Tamil culture. Distance doesnt seem to be huge determinant of genetics in some cases when you get Kamma resembling populations in SE Iran (Shahr i Sokhta) and Rajasthani lower caste derived pops in the UK (Romanichal)

Of course the Eastern Christian wave also hugely impacted the state as did migrating traders from the Middle East - minimally genetically, but significantly culturally

- Sambandham didnt occur in any significance in Nambiars, im related to the largest clans by numbers of the region and there is literally no mention or memory of this anywhere. Nambiars did mix with Varmas like Nileshwar Rajas (who are likely Nair by genetics). Regarding Ambalavasis and non-Nambiar/Nayanar Nair clans like Vaniya, maybe you are correct.

- Also separately Ambalavasis are also likely of the same origin as Nairs and contrast with Ezhava/Thiyyas

Vaniya didn't had sambandham since it was auxiliary nair group

In keralolpathy it is mentioned that they won't accept food from any caste that is lower than of brahmins but even dhobis won't eat their food (That is they consider themselves as dwija vyshyas and ranks above every caste but just below brahmins but in kerala other castes including true nairs don't agree with this)
Such migrant castes have their own perceptions about their rank in kerala caste system (So cannot possibly say they are lower nairs, since In reality they are not even nairs but got nair status and treatment from other castes)

Suku
06-26-2019, 04:28 PM
- Youre right, we dont have reliable stats on Sambandham prevalence, i read a previous version of the wikpedia Nair article which said it was a small % but you might have a better estimate

- actually they score nothing like Ezhava/Thiyyas and almost resemble the less steppe shifted UP Brahmins thousands of kilometres away (Harappa) who they are much closer to than most Kerala inhabitants to this day. They brought a new language Manipravalam and brought the shift from Tamil-Grantha Tamil script used by the Ay/Villavar Kingdom to Tigalari Grantha derived Vatulettu script in Kerala, both again quite contrasting to what was there before. Who else used the Tigalari script? Shivalli and Havyak Brahmins again suggesting the same origin

It was used by Tulu-speaking Brahmins like Shivalli Brahmins and Kannada speaking Havyaka Brahmins and Kota Brahmins to write Vedic mantras and other Sanskrit religious texts.

It later evolved into Tigalari-Malayalam script was used by the Malayali, Havyaka Brahmins and Tulu Brahmin people, but was originally only applied to write Sanskrit. This script split into two scripts: Tigalari and Malayalam.

The generally held view is that Malayalam was the western coastal dialect of Tamil[20] and separated from Tamil sometime between the 9th and 13th centuries.[21]

This is why we have genetics, and surprisingly it seems to validate that Brahmin texts do have elements of truth. Same with R1a correlation with Brahmins loosely reflecting the gotra patrilineal system. So basically the native inhabitants of Kerala have a very divergent genetic profile to Brahmins - and also contrasts when you compare Ezhavas to Paniyas who again score nothing alike - something like 3 waves of genetic profiles seem likely for the state, Narasimhans ASI (Paniya), a SISBA3 type profile South-Dravidian (Ezhavas/Thiyyas) wave building the base for Kerala, and a minor steppe infusion and language/culture/religion shift from the 2nd Chera era to shift Kerala distinctively from Tamil culture. Distance doesnt seem to be huge determinant of genetics in some cases when you get Kamma resembling populations in SE Iran (Shahr i Sokhta) and Rajasthani lower caste derived pops in the UK (Romanichal)

Of course the Eastern Christian wave also hugely impacted the state as did migrating traders from the Middle East - minimally genetically, but significantly culturally

- Sambandham didnt occur in any significance in Nambiars, im related to the largest clans by numbers of the region and there is literally no mention or memory of this anywhere. Nambiars did mix with Varmas like Nileshwar Rajas (who are likely Nair by genetics). Regarding Ambalavasis and non-Nambiar/Nayanar Nair clans like Vaniya, maybe you are correct.

- Also separately Ambalavasis are also likely of the same origin as Nairs and contrast with Ezhava/Thiyyas

Vaniya didn't had sambandham, They practice endogamy even nowadays (That is not marrying even from other nair subcastes)
They are grouped as not nair but hindu vayshya caste by government of kerala(other being vanika vyshya and vanika ) and roughly have a population of 5 lakhs mainly concentrated in kannur (Thus also classified as hindu minority caste in kerala)

The story of origin among them is about a migration from sourashtra region
Even ritually ranked lower than nambiars people from vaniya caste are taller in general ( Obviously they are not real nair but grouped as a subcaste) They usually claim they are vaishyas and no they are not chakkala nair as like a common perception and they don't marry them (Even though one of caste profession oil sale is common) They are also called kavil nairs and kacheri nairs (Since they have their own worship places called muchilottu and they also do other small scale trading other than oil production and sale respectively )

They collaborate with vanika vyshya regarding programs (Which is another vyshya group in kerala located mainly in trivandrum region) but don't have marital relationships maybe because of different origins (One beings from norrh and other being from Tamil nadu)

Leela group founder krishnan nair and famous IAS officer Prashanth k nair(Known as collector bro) are from vaniya community

bmoney
06-26-2019, 11:34 PM
Vaniya didn't had sambandham, They practice endogamy even nowadays (That is not marrying even from other nair subcastes)
They are grouped as not nair but hindu vayshya caste by government of kerala(other being vanika vyshya and vanika ) and roughly have a population of 5 lakhs mainly concentrated in kannur (Thus also classified as hindu minority caste in kerala)

The story of origin among them is about a migration from sourashtra region
Even ritually ranked lower than nambiars people from vaniya caste are taller in general ( Obviously they are not real nair but grouped as a subcaste) They usually claim they are vaishyas and no they are not chakkala nair as like a common perception and they don't marry them (Even though one of caste profession oil sale is common) They are also called kavil nairs and kacheri nairs (Since they have their own worship places called muchilottu and they also do other small scale trading other than oil production and sale respectively )

They collaborate with vanika vyshya regarding programs (Which is another vyshya group in kerala located mainly in trivandrum region) but don't have marital relationships maybe because of different origins (One beings from norrh and other being from Tamil nadu)

Leela group founder krishnan nair and famous IAS officer Prashanth k nair(Known as collector bro) are from vaniya community

To corroborate your Vaishya assertion, the Vaniya result @vishankar posted score more like North Indian caste groups than Thiyyas - so you could be right

Different origin to Nairs, but a more recent northern background might explain the steppe levels

vishankar
06-27-2019, 02:58 AM
To corroborate your Vaishya assertion, the Vaniya result @vishankar posted score more like North Indian caste groups than Thiyyas - so you could be right

Different origin to Nairs, but a more recent northern background might explain the steppe levels

there is only one vaniya sample upto now, but i am hopeful of getting more..!

scobar
06-27-2019, 04:08 AM
hey all..posted a couple of models here in case some of you want to try them out.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17559-Compact-Moderns-Ancients-model-amateur-version

The first post describes what it's trying to explore, but was using an individuals model. I posted another datasheet later in the thread using pop averages which some prefer -

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17559-Compact-Moderns-Ancients-model-amateur-version&p=576741#post576741

parasar
06-27-2019, 06:03 PM
Cant say if R1a subclade will prove it but Vishankar (Nair) is L657 ...

@parasar what do these R1a Nairs fall under:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

I have funded Vishankar to get a Nambudiri and a Nambiar y-signature analysed, he should come back with an update soon

Thanks! No doubt further SNP testing will clarify.

86036 Nair India R-M512
Likely L657+ Y7+

vishankar
06-28-2019, 01:58 PM
@bmoney and parasar, the nambiar result-my wife's uncle( first cousin's father- ) is R1-M198 from family tree DNA.so that is essentially R1a!....
so already we have are having 2 different paternal lines among two nambiars- my father in law- H-M69, and uncle-R1-M198 who stay adjacent to each other!

vishankar
06-29-2019, 05:17 AM
hi guys...i also received the nambudiri y-dna report- R1-M198....so R1a here too!
interestingly on the close matches of fttree dna, my wife's uncle- nambiar-kallara kambikath tharavad comes in as a 2nd to 4th cousin of the namboodiri ,who stays a couple of houses away!

vishankar
06-29-2019, 05:18 AM
hi guys...i also received the nambudiri y-dna report- R1-M198....so R1a here too!
interestingly on the close matches of fttree dna, my wife's uncle- nambiar-kallara kambikath tharavad comes in as a 2nd to 4th cousin of the namboodiri ,who stays a couple of houses away!

bmoney
06-30-2019, 11:56 PM
Damn in getting good at this

R1a is the largest, followed by R2a and H.

J/L is actually quite low in the Nairs IMO

Do we know if the Nambudiri and Nambiar are L657?

vishankar
07-01-2019, 03:33 PM
a quick update on the trivandrum nair sample-she said,to the best of her knowledge she has no recent( past3 generations) nambudiri admixture- according to her parents!
and she is not from Trivandrum LOL))))....Kottayam and Idukki parentage!

bmoney
07-02-2019, 04:32 AM
what did that Nair score like?

Also any progress on the R1a subclades of the Nambiar + Nambudiri sample

vishankar
07-20-2019, 02:44 PM
my heritage has receuved my next sample set- 1 moosari( artisan caste),2 thiyas, 1 nambudiri , 1 payyanur poduval and one nair....getting excited!

bmoney
07-22-2019, 01:02 AM
my uncles sample is incoming too, interestingly he showed me a book excerpt that said that the kodoth/vengayil family is originally from Guruvaryoor in Thrissur district, but settled in southern Karnataka as part of a military conquest, and then to Kerala. To be fair our traditional weddings have always been done in Guruvayoor despite the fact that its 2x as far as Coorg is from us for example

And he believes if Nairs came in via a northern migration, it was via the Palghat pass and not from the north - which would make the Central Kerala Nairs ground zero of proto-Nair in Kerala

bmoney
07-22-2019, 01:06 AM
@vishankar have you got an indicator of the Nambiar and Nambudiri R1a subtype?

if you send me the kits, i can use morley to get a prediction

vishankar
07-22-2019, 02:37 AM
@vishankar have you got an indicator of the Nambiar and Nambudiri R1a subtype?

if you send me the kits, i can use morley to get a prediction

yup... i will send it to you.

BMG
07-27-2019, 03:55 AM
There is a new G1 member in Syrian Christian project . IN60971 .Thomas48 any idea whether he is knanaya or non-knanaya ?

bmoney
08-05-2019, 10:43 AM
so i got my mama harappa'd

Kodoth paternally

His ydna is R2a1 - i expected R1a1 due to my matches, but thats probably from my Dads side

Regardless, Nambiar dna is mostly R1a, R2a and H as ive mentioned before, closer to Gangetic patterns

and his NE Euro is the highest ive seen in a Kerala sample thus far. He almost scores exactly like a UP Kshatriya

Even further from the Nair reference than me (17th vs 13th for me), so i guess my paternal side is heavier on the local Dravidian elite IranN (i score higher Caucasian)

Syrian Christians are not even in his top 20

So i guess the Keralolpathi has a bit of truth to it after all

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.58
2 Baloch 35.89
3 NE-Euro 8.25
4 Caucasian 4
5 NE-Asian 1.92
6 American 1.12
7 SE-Asian 1.05
8 Papuan 0.96
9 San 0.78
10 SW-Asian 0.35
11 E-African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 3
2 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 3.18
3 gujarati (harappa) 3.34
4 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.47
5 vaish (reich) 3.47
6 meghawal (reich) 3.68
7 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 4.13
8 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.28
9 ap-brahmin (xing) 4.29
10 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.36
11 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.58
12 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.69
13 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.81
14 rajasthani (harappa) 5.12
15 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 5.16
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 5.29
17 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.93
18 bihari (harappa) 6.09
19 up (harappa) 6.2
20 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 6.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 31.9% ap-reddy (harappa) @ 2.16
2 57.4% tharu (metspalu) + 42.6% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.3
3 76.4% ap-brahmin (xing) + 23.6% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.3
4 97.2% gujarati (harappa) + 2.8% finnish (1000genomes) @ 2.32
5 65.8% gujarati (harappa) + 34.2% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.33
6 55.4% nepalese-a (xing) + 44.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.36
7 54.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 45.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) @ 2.37
8 51.9% gujarati (harappa) + 48.1% vaish (reich) @ 2.4
9 66% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 34% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 2.4
10 61.7% nepalese-a (xing) + 38.3% vysya (reich) @ 2.4
11 58% kanjar (metspalu) + 42% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 2.41
12 57.1% ap-brahmin (xing) + 42.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.41
13 71% kanjar (metspalu) + 29% bhatia (harappa) @ 2.42
14 54.1% nepalese-a (xing) + 45.9% lodi (reich) @ 2.46
15 67.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 32.8% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.47
16 55% nepalese-a (xing) + 45% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.49
17 69.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 30.5% karnataka (harappa) @ 2.5
18 97% gujarati (harappa) + 3% russian (behar) @ 2.51
19 61.6% vaish (reich) + 38.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 2.52
20 51.1% rajasthani (harappa) + 48.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.52

aaronbee2010
08-05-2019, 12:51 PM
His ydna is R2a1

If you're referring to R-L295 then it's currently R2a2b1b2b.

You are welcome :>

bmoney
08-05-2019, 02:02 PM
If you're referring to R-L295 then it's currently R2a2b1b2b.

You are welcome :>

cheers moite, morley shows this, using both methods (ISOGG and the other one) - probably L295+?

https://i.imgur.com/thMfMUf.png

aaronbee2010
08-05-2019, 02:42 PM
cheers moite, morley shows this, using both methods (ISOGG and the other one) - probably L295+?

https://i.imgur.com/thMfMUf.png

Yes. L295 is in green so your maternal uncle is confirmed L295+ (red means confirmed negative).

Morleys experimental tree is based off an older version of the ISOGG tree (the ISOGG tree on Morley is also outdated), which as you can see, is pretty terrible. The R2 tree didn't expand until 2016.

Also, the fact you still have R2a1 on your profile is triggering me xD

bmoney
08-05-2019, 03:00 PM
Yes. L295 is in green so your maternal uncle is confirmed L295+ (red means confirmed negative).

Morleys experimental tree is based off an older version of the ISOGG tree (the ISOGG tree on Morley is also outdated), which as you can see, is pretty terrible. The R2 tree didn't expand until 2016.

Also, the fact you still have R2a1 on your profile is triggering me xD

thanks bruv, will change now

aaronbee2010
08-05-2019, 03:16 PM
thanks bruv, will change now

How did you confirm your uncle L294+? What company did you test with?

BMG
08-05-2019, 04:15 PM
so i got my mama harappa'd

Kodoth paternally

His ydna is R2a1 - i expected R1a1 due to my matches, but thats probably from my Dads side

Regardless, Nambiar dna is mostly R1a, R2a and H as ive mentioned before, closer to Gangetic patterns

and his NE Euro is the highest ive seen in a Kerala sample thus far. He almost scores exactly like a UP Kshatriya

Even further from the Nair reference than me (17th vs 13th for me), so i guess my paternal side is heavier on the local Dravidian elite IranN (i score higher Caucasian)

Syrian Christians are not even in his top 20

So i guess the Keralolpathi has a bit of truth to it after all

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.58
2 Baloch 35.89
3 NE-Euro 8.25
4 Caucasian 4
5 NE-Asian 1.92
6 American 1.12
7 SE-Asian 1.05
8 Papuan 0.96
9 San 0.78
10 SW-Asian 0.35
11 E-African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 3
2 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 3.18
3 gujarati (harappa) 3.34
4 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.47
5 vaish (reich) 3.47
6 meghawal (reich) 3.68
7 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 4.13
8 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.28
9 ap-brahmin (xing) 4.29
10 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.36
11 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.58
12 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.69
13 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.81
14 rajasthani (harappa) 5.12
15 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 5.16
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 5.29
17 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.93
18 bihari (harappa) 6.09
19 up (harappa) 6.2
20 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 6.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 31.9% ap-reddy (harappa) @ 2.16
2 57.4% tharu (metspalu) + 42.6% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.3
3 76.4% ap-brahmin (xing) + 23.6% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.3
4 97.2% gujarati (harappa) + 2.8% finnish (1000genomes) @ 2.32
5 65.8% gujarati (harappa) + 34.2% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.33
6 55.4% nepalese-a (xing) + 44.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.36
7 54.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 45.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) @ 2.37
8 51.9% gujarati (harappa) + 48.1% vaish (reich) @ 2.4
9 66% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 34% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 2.4
10 61.7% nepalese-a (xing) + 38.3% vysya (reich) @ 2.4
11 58% kanjar (metspalu) + 42% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 2.41
12 57.1% ap-brahmin (xing) + 42.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.41
13 71% kanjar (metspalu) + 29% bhatia (harappa) @ 2.42
14 54.1% nepalese-a (xing) + 45.9% lodi (reich) @ 2.46
15 67.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 32.8% nepalese-a (xing) @ 2.47
16 55% nepalese-a (xing) + 45% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.49
17 69.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 30.5% karnataka (harappa) @ 2.5
18 97% gujarati (harappa) + 3% russian (behar) @ 2.51
19 61.6% vaish (reich) + 38.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 2.52
20 51.1% rajasthani (harappa) + 48.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.52

Is he your maternal grandfather ? The NE Euro seems to be on higher end even for South Indian Brahmins .

bmoney
08-05-2019, 11:37 PM
Is he your maternal grandfather ? The NE Euro seems to be on higher end even for South Indian Brahmins .

no my maternal uncle, my mums brother ie mama

he has no Brahmin ancestry which is documented back 3 or 4 generations from him. only Varuns NE Euro result is higher from what ive seen among South Brahmins

also notable is his Gangetic type low Baloch/Caucasian + SW Asian which is flipped among Syrian Christians, hence his distance from them

My Dad (different subcaste) has to score significantly more of the latter (more like Kart for example) to counter the former as i score higher Caucasian than NE Euro more typical of ANF with low/no steppe type profile communities like Syrian Christians, Gujarati Patels, Gujarati Muslims, Sindhis etc

My uncle on the other hand scores a diluted version of that Ror/high steppe like component that Gangetic Brahmins score, see his mixed mode where he gets nepalese a (Nepali Brahmin) and UP Brahmin quite frequently

The keralolpathi + grama padathi mentions Ahichatra, also the source for Nambudiris, Bunts, Havyaka & Shivalli Brahmins which would fall near the Himayalan region of UP - so my take which ive communicated to my uncle is that Nambiar clans are extensively inbred (cousin marriage for land purposes extended to my grandmothers gen) and highly distrustful of exogamy - hence have maintained an almost entirely Gangetic mid/high caste profile from potentially 700AD

bmoney
08-05-2019, 11:47 PM
How did you confirm your uncle L294+? What company did you test with?

23andme v5

aaronbee2010
08-05-2019, 11:53 PM
23andme v5

MorleyDNA says he wasn't tested for L294.

You can double check by opening his 23andMe file and looking for "2888632" and looking for the genotype.

Also, was your maternal grandfather the one with green eyes? He's making R2 look good d00d

bmoney
08-06-2019, 12:58 AM
MorleyDNA says he wasn't tested for L294.

You can double check by opening his 23andMe file and looking for "2888632" and looking for the genotype.

Also, was your maternal grandfather the one with green eyes? He's making R2 look good d00d

that snp is not in the txt file, just checked - i derived it from morley which was red on one of the subclades and not red on the other - R-L294, which i took to mean at least R-L294? correct me if im wrong

tbh my mama(ji) was teased by my mum for being a darkie, hes the darkest guy in my immediate family. My dad who likely scores 3%ish NE Euro given my 5.7% score is lighter skinned than me, my Mum and my mama

this reminds me of the Bargoti UP Jatt dude who was probably 30% Steppe and was teased in school for being the Australian image of what Indians look like (ie Sri Lankan Tamil like), whereas id just slink away into ambiguity and not self-disclose

That guy and his cousins were really dark though, probably outliers for UP Jatts given what prashant looks like

Point being steppe isnt particularly correlated to phenotype in South Asia, though there is a loose correlation. Look at pnb for example

Indus natives like Khatris are strikingly light skinned (some are dark though) - its possible that their BMAC component (or more likely ANF vs ANE shifted pre bronze age Central Asians) plays a larger part in what we call exotic (West Asian) looking. And I do recall seeing Pahari/hill people like Nepali Brahmins with freckles and brown hair and a family driver we had in Delhi who was from Uttarakhand with a pseudo-European look (as opposed to West Asian) but my main point is phenotypically that Peter Varghese guy who probably has 0% steppe and Knanaya people on that basketball photo in the chehra thread look more exotic than my mama

aaronbee2010
08-06-2019, 01:27 AM
that snp is not in the txt file, just checked - i derived it from morley which was red on one of the subclades and not red on the other - R-L294, which i took to mean at least R-L294? correct me if im wrong

tbh my mama(ji) was teased by my mum for being a darkie, hes the darkest guy in my immediate family. My dad who likely scores 3%ish NE Euro given my 5.7% score is lighter skinned than me, my Mum and my mama

this reminds me of the Bargoti UP Jatt dude who was probably 30% Steppe and was teased in school for being the Australian image of what Indians look like (ie Sri Lankan Tamil like), whereas id just slink away into ambiguity and not self-disclose

That guy and his cousins were really dark though, probably outliers for UP Jatts given what prashant looks like

Point being steppe isnt particularly correlated to phenotype in South Asia, though there is a loose correlation. Look at pnb for example

Indus natives like Khatris are strikingly light skinned (some are dark though) - its possible that their BMAC component (or more likely ANF vs ANE shifted pre bronze age Central Asians) plays a larger part in what we call exotic (West Asian) looking. And I do recall seeing Pahari/hill people like Nepali Brahmins with freckles and brown hair and a family driver we had in Delhi who was from Uttarakhand with a pseudo-European look (as opposed to West Asian) but my main point is phenotypically that Peter Varghese guy who probably has 0% steppe and Knanaya people on that basketball photo in the chehra thread look more exotic than my mama

That's incorrect. He's been confirmed L295+ but all downstream SNP's are no-calls, apart from L723, which is negative. L294 is not red but that doesn't mean it must be green. It just appears to not have been tested. You can test for L294 individually from YSEQ if you wish. He could be positive or negative for L294, for all we know.

I agree that correlating Steppe levels with phenotypes is nonsensical, but you didn't answer my question though :P was it your maternal grandfather who had green eyes?

bmoney
08-06-2019, 01:40 AM
That's incorrect. He's been confirmed L295+ but all downstream SNP's are no-calls, apart from L723, which is negative. L294 is not red but that doesn't mean it must be green. It just appears to not have been tested. You can test for L294 individually from YSEQ if you wish. He could be positive or negative for L294, for all we know.

I agree that correlating Steppe levels with phenotypes is nonsensical, but you didn't answer my question though :P was it your maternal grandfather who had green eyes?

ok ill change it again haha - how much does a yseq go for these days?

yeah my mgf did

wait hold on if hes tested 295+ and one of the available two options below 295 is red, that must mean hes the other logically?

Also i might be coming to Lund-on early next year - wouldnt mind meeting up Reza and yourself and grab a fresh microwaved warm beer - keep you posted

vishankar
08-06-2019, 03:14 AM
nice to see a flurry of activity on this thread again)))...my wife's relative - maternal side - mother in law's cousin tested form my heritage- NE euro -7 %, this is payyanur poduval...hopefully iw ill put up the harappa scores in a couple of days time...

vishankar
08-06-2019, 03:17 AM
i had tested a thiyya lady, nair male( both from telicherry) , a payyanur poduval, a nambudiri and a moosari( artisan) ...the resluts are more or less on expected lines...both the nair male and thiyya lady belong to Pinarayi in rural thalassery and there is no close DNA relationship between the two....
like BMG said in an earlier post, the caste system has created micropopulations genetically still distinct!...phenotypically I would say not much difference...

bmoney
08-06-2019, 03:51 AM
i had tested a thiyya lady, nair male( both from telicherry) , a payyanur poduval, a nambudiri and a moosari( artisan) ...the resluts are more or less on expected lines...both the nair male and thiyya lady belong to Pinarayi in rural thalassery and there is no close DNA relationship between the two....
like BMG said in an earlier post, the caste system has created micropopulations genetically still distinct!...phenotypically I would say not much difference...

could you post the HAP scores if you havent before for any of those samples? Also vishankar if you could keep a shared spreadsheet of Kerala kit numbers on Google drive; ethnicity, village/district and Harappa scores that would be great and can be used for reference purposes. it likely will be the most comprehensive ancestry related document available for Malayalis by default given the lack of research in the area

yep, if phenotype worked for Kerala, Nambudiri Brahmins would stand out - but they more or less blend in with a few exotic types here and there

having said that the vast majority of Malayalis are of Ezhava/Thiyya stock (likely most Nairs and Syrian Christians too) hence standard 'South Indian' Malayali look is probably correlated to their ancestral profile

One of the Thiyya samples get AP (Andhra Pradesh mid caste) and Tamil (likely mid-caste) as their first few oracles, so the Thiyya/Ezhava peoples were likely once part of the same predominantly SISBA3 like South+SouthCentral Dravidian speaking farmer wave that make up the numerical majority of South India and formed the cultural base.

I dont think the Paniya originally spoke Dravidian, and probably did not farm. They were probably displaced by this South + South/Central Dravidian farmer wave and adopted the latter's language along with genetic input. Their initial tongue was likely to be an isolate like Nihali, and they speak highly derived languages (Paniya is an offshoot of Malayalam which is a relatively modern offshoot of Tamil) with no archaic retained proto-Dravidian features shared by Brahui

The other Thiyya gets Syrian Christian at number 1 so likely had the same profile as the former Thiyya sample but with additional Indo-Aryan and/or coastal merchant ancestry

Kerala and South India also got separate migrations via the coast, Gangetics, pre-Aryan SISBA1 type ancestry from the NW to add to this Thiyya/Ezhava ancestral base. Thiyya/Ezhavas themselves show a bit of variation, absorbing waves of migration

vishankar
08-06-2019, 04:09 PM
yup i will post the HAP scores...just a bit busy with my hospital work)))......

aaronbee2010
08-06-2019, 11:23 PM
that snp is not in the txt file, just checked - i derived it from morley which was red on one of the subclades and not red on the other - R-L294, which i took to mean at least R-L294? correct me if im wrong

ISOGG 2015 tree for R2-L295:

https://i.gyazo.com/b8f5ce73a813ca3d977b1bdb40661ee3.png

ISOGG 2016 tree for R2-L295 (all the new SNPs under R2-L295 discovered in 2016 are in red):

https://i.gyazo.com/2a38054889b46174922306cd5fabd2a5.png

YFull tree for R2-L295: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L295

As you can see, there are plenty of subclades of R2-L295 that have South Asian samples on the YFull tree other than R2-L294. Your father could come anywhere on that tree. The MorleyDNA tree is based on an outdated version of the ISOGG tree. The 23andMe v5 tree for R2 is a complete hecking failure based on the same outdated tree that MorleyDNA is, so 23andMe won't test for any of the newer SNPs, so you can use MorleyDNA to see what your maternal uncle's positive SNPs in that older tree are, but then you need to apply those results to the newer trees.

On another note, it's possible for someone to come under one subclade, but be negative for all subclades underneath it. For example, someone can be Y1331+, but also Y20020- and Y26635- at the same time. He would belong to the R2-Y1331* paragroup (paragroup means that he's positive for a subclade, but negative for all of its daughter [wouldn't it be son in this case? lel] subclades). He would just belong to a subclade that hasn't yet been discovered. He would need to have his Y-DNA sequenced for new subclade discovery.

I'm in the R2-Y1383* paragroup on YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1383/), as I'm Y1383+ but Y154917-. I'm currently awaiting my sequencing results from Dante Labs (PLEASE DO NOT TEST WITH THIS COMPANY EVER), so YFull should find SNPs that they've never seen before until analysing my results. I would need another sample on there who matches me for YFull to add a new subclade though.

vishankar
08-07-2019, 07:04 PM
the thiyya lady from rural thalassery-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 52.86
2 Baloch 33.37
3 Caucasian 4.82
4 SW-Asian 2.21
5 American 1.54
6 NE-Euro 1.35
7 Siberian 1.20
8 Beringian 1.16


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tamil_harappa @ 2.238674
2 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 2.561240
3 meghawal_metspalu @ 2.785587
4 karnataka_harappa @ 3.381847
5 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 3.396463
6 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 4.406160
7 tharu_metspalu @ 4.460852
8 ap-reddy_harappa @ 4.621362
9 sourastrian_harappa @ 4.650151
10 lambadi_metspalu @ 4.979434
11 kurmi_metspalu @ 4.995738
12 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 5.017968
13 kerala-christian_harappa @ 5.149902
14 velama_reich @ 5.388123
15 up-muslim_metspalu @ 5.590765
16 velama_metspalu @ 5.670594
17 sinhalese_harappa @ 5.732484
18 up_harappa @ 5.816164
19 bengali_metspalu @ 6.134166
20 dharkar_metspalu @ 6.159883

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal_metspalu +50% tamil_harappa @ 1.590703


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-christian_harappa +25% meghawal_metspalu +25% piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.534500


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++
1 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.521946
2 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.534500
3 andhra-pradesh_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.555059
4 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.558292
5 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.571476
6 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.585381
7 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + naidu_reich + tamil_harappa @ 1.590677
8 meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.590703
9 andhra-pradesh_harappa + andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu @ 1.591544
10 andhra-pradesh_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.600692
11 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu @ 1.603290
12 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu @ 1.604351
13 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + naidu_reich @ 1.607768
14 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.617837
15 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.618221
16 ap-hyderabad_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.618263
17 andhra-pradesh_harappa + andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.618325
18 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + sinhalese_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.627472
19 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.627829
20 kerala-christian_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tn-brahmin_xing @ 1.638220

Done.

Elapsed time 6.0553 second

vishankar
08-07-2019, 07:07 PM
this result is from my heritage....and here is the nair from the same rural thalassery locality-

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.23
2 Baloch 37.18
3 Caucasian 5.60
4 NE-Euro 3.75
5 Papuan 2.59
6 SW-Asian 2.25
7 American 1.29


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.971315
2 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 3.306738
3 kerala-nair_harappa @ 3.450630
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 3.875433
5 maharashtrian_harappa @ 3.898620
6 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 3.904447
7 goan_harappa @ 3.957776
8 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.994598
9 meghawal_reich @ 4.178505
10 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.372464
11 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.415631
12 gujarati_harappa @ 4.613211
13 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 4.826589
14 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 4.914835
15 kerala_harappa @ 5.939998
16 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.200456
17 up_harappa @ 6.469637
18 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.527215
19 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 6.601354
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 6.749644

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% piramalai-kallar_metspalu +50% punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.659284


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-nair_harappa +25% punjabi_harappa +25% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.382028


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bhatia_harappa + kerala-nair_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.273305
2 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.289634
3 bhatia_harappa + kerala-nair_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.293818
4 bhatia_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.295949
5 kerala-nair_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.306252
6 kerala-nair_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.311446
7 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.314574
8 gujarati-a_1000genomes + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 2.326339
9 bhatia_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.328565
10 bhatia_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.331104
11 bhatia_harappa + iyer-brahmin_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.331353
12 bhatia_harappa + karnataka_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.345650
13 iyer-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.354543
14 kerala-nair_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.356761
15 iyer-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.361974
16 meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu + tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.369396
17 bhatia_harappa + iyer-brahmin_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.370789
18 bhatia_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.373027
19 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kerala_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 2.373809
20 iyer-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + sindhi_hgdp + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 2.376512

Done.

Elapsed time 5.2871 seconds.

aaronbee2010
08-07-2019, 11:05 PM
ok ill change it again haha - how much does a yseq go for these days?

yeah my mgf did

wait hold on if hes tested 295+ and one of the available two options below 295 is red, that must mean hes the other logically?

Also i might be coming to Lund-on early next year - wouldnt mind meeting up Reza and yourself and grab a fresh microwaved warm beer - keep you posted

YSEQ test individual SNPs for $18 plus $6 for shipping a swab out to you. If you have tests after the first one, you can tell them to reuse the swab and they won't charge you shipping.

I would actually recommend testing for Y1334 first, as that seems to be the L295 branch clustered around the western coast of the subcontinent. Rustyshakelford comes under R2-Y1357 on YFull, so your maternal Y-DNA may be the same - who knows lel

I live 100+ miles away from Le Capitul, and I'll be busy with my last year of uni. Can I get an F for respects pls?

Bruh look how awesome this looks:

https://i.gyazo.com/57c1c0398859cc0ce795a594b26c657b.png

vishankar
08-11-2019, 07:46 PM
a payyanur poduval -

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.45
2 Baloch 37.44
3 NE-Euro 7.00
4 Caucasian 4.71
5 Siberian 2.02
6 SE-Asian 1.54
7 SW-Asian 1.46


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 meghawal_reich @ 2.072534
2 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 3.285072
3 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 3.288649
4 gujarati_harappa @ 3.416765
5 maharashtrian_harappa @ 3.436388
6 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.462276
7 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 3.529619
8 tn-brahmin_xing @ 3.889197
9 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 3.928402
10 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 3.933866
11 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.705670
12 vaish_reich @ 5.053835
13 rajasthani_harappa @ 5.097318
14 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 5.184153
15 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.445467
16 goan_harappa @ 5.550188
17 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 5.764151
18 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 6.447814
19 meena_metspalu @ 6.528069
20 oriya_harappa @ 6.552756

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal_reich +50% meghawal_reich @ 2.072534


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-b_hapmap +25% kerala-brahmin_harappa +25% srivastava_reich @ 2.029135


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bengali_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.843888
2 bengali_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_reich + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.875987
3 gujarati-a_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + pushtikar-brahmin_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.882640
4 bengali_metspalu + iyengar-brahmin_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.910864
5 gujarati-a_hapmap + sindhi_harappa + srivastava_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.930600
6 gujarati-b_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.931404
7 bengali_metspalu + brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_reich @ 1.935058
8 bengali_metspalu + brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + gujarati-b_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 1.935076
9 kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.936209
10 bengali_metspalu + iyengar-brahmin_harappa + iyengar-brahmin_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 1.956326
11 bengali_metspalu + brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.958089
12 bengali_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + tn-brahmin_xing + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.978009
13 iyengar-brahmin_harappa + sindhi_hgdp + srivastava_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.981040
14 kerala-brahmin_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + singapore-indian-b_sgvp + srivastava_reich @ 2.001107
15 bengali_metspalu + gujarati-b_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.002249
16 bengali_metspalu + iyer-brahmin_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.019248
17 kerala-brahmin_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + srivastava_reich + srivastava_reich @ 2.027541
18 gujarati-b_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 2.029135
19 gujarati-a_1000genomes + sindhi_harappa + srivastava_reich + srivastava_reich @ 2.029167
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_reich + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.031883

Done.

vishankar
08-11-2019, 07:48 PM
he scores higher NE euro than my latest nambudiri brahmin...marrying nairs only since the past one generation( due to scarcityof both brides and grooms!)...
historically these poduvals ara thought to be - paradeshis, ( pardesis)

bmoney
08-12-2019, 05:23 AM
the thiyya lady from rural thalassery-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 52.86
2 Baloch 33.37
3 Caucasian 4.82
4 SW-Asian 2.21
5 American 1.54
6 NE-Euro 1.35
7 Siberian 1.20
8 Beringian 1.16


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tamil_harappa @ 2.238674
2 andhra-pradesh_harappa @ 2.561240
3 meghawal_metspalu @ 2.785587
4 karnataka_harappa @ 3.381847
5 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 3.396463
6 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 4.406160
7 tharu_metspalu @ 4.460852
8 ap-reddy_harappa @ 4.621362
9 sourastrian_harappa @ 4.650151
10 lambadi_metspalu @ 4.979434
11 kurmi_metspalu @ 4.995738
12 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 5.017968
13 kerala-christian_harappa @ 5.149902
14 velama_reich @ 5.388123
15 up-muslim_metspalu @ 5.590765
16 velama_metspalu @ 5.670594
17 sinhalese_harappa @ 5.732484
18 up_harappa @ 5.816164
19 bengali_metspalu @ 6.134166
20 dharkar_metspalu @ 6.159883

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal_metspalu +50% tamil_harappa @ 1.590703


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-christian_harappa +25% meghawal_metspalu +25% piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.534500


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++
1 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.521946
2 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.534500
3 andhra-pradesh_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.555059
4 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.558292
5 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.571476
6 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.585381
7 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + naidu_reich + tamil_harappa @ 1.590677
8 meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.590703
9 andhra-pradesh_harappa + andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu @ 1.591544
10 andhra-pradesh_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.600692
11 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu @ 1.603290
12 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + meghawal_metspalu @ 1.604351
13 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + naidu_reich @ 1.607768
14 kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.617837
15 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil_harappa @ 1.618221
16 ap-hyderabad_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 1.618263
17 andhra-pradesh_harappa + andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.618325
18 kerala-christian_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + sinhalese_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 1.627472
19 andhra-pradesh_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 1.627829
20 kerala-christian_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + tamil_harappa + tn-brahmin_xing @ 1.638220

Done.

Elapsed time 6.0553 second

top 2 oracles this sample scores is what i mean about one largely similar genetic group constituting the South Dravidian wave which likely brought farming to peninsular India (after IVC collapse) and displaced pre-existing hunter gatherers likely connected to the neolithic Ashmound culture

bmoney
08-12-2019, 05:26 AM
he scores higher NE euro than my latest nambudiri brahmin...marrying nairs only since the past one generation( due to scarcityof both brides and grooms!)...
historically these poduvals ara thought to be - paradeshis, ( pardesis)

interesting, scores similar to my uncle

Like i said before, Ambalavasis and Nairs are probably the same peoples genetically (at the proto NairBunt stage) organised around functions

Censored
08-12-2019, 05:29 AM
top 2 oracles this sample scores is what i mean about one largely similar genetic group constituting the South Dravidian wave which likely brought farming to peninsular India (after IVC collapse) and displaced pre-existing hunter gatherers likely connected to the neolithic Ashmound culture

I suspect that Dravidoid wave involved Baloch like people.

bmoney
08-12-2019, 06:18 AM
YSEQ test individual SNPs for $18 plus $6 for shipping a swab out to you. If you have tests after the first one, you can tell them to reuse the swab and they won't charge you shipping.

I would actually recommend testing for Y1334 first, as that seems to be the L295 branch clustered around the western coast of the subcontinent. Rustyshakelford comes under R2-Y1357 on YFull, so your maternal Y-DNA may be the same - who knows lel

I live 100+ miles away from Le Capitul, and I'll be busy with my last year of uni. Can I get an F for respects pls?

Bruh look how awesome this looks:

https://i.gyazo.com/57c1c0398859cc0ce795a594b26c657b.png

ok so why L-M27 instead of L1a1?

and why R2-L295 when you mentioned my uncle was 295+ (ie not basal) and one of the two subclades under 295 was red, which leaves one possible outcome left in the tree, 294 which doesnt need to be tested for as its the only option left?

bmoney
08-12-2019, 06:19 AM
I suspect that Dravidoid wave involved Baloch like people.

me too, or that the initial Dravidoid wave was buffed by pre-steppe Turanian.

I think R2 295+ precedes ANF linked haplogroups, so Iran N likely came in waves

the Brahui are more BMAC-like than any NW sample we have

aaronbee2010
08-12-2019, 08:33 AM
ok so why L-M27 instead of L1a1?

If you're going to have "R2-L295" ("Haplogroup-Terminal SNP" format) then you might as well be consistent with that. You could also have L1a1/R2a2b1b2b (ISOGG haplogroups) but that won't fit properly. Look at mine, even with the shorter format it still doesn't fit properly. Anthrogenica should have seperate sections for maternal Y-DNA and paternal mtDNA where applicable. I might make a suggestion on that actually.

ISOGG haplogroups change from time to time (i.e. R2-L295 changing from R2a1 to R2a2b1b2b), so it just makes more sense to have the "Haplogroup-Terminal SNP" format, as this pretty much never needs to be changed (obviously you'll need to change it when your maternal uncle is confirmed for another SNP downstream of R2-L295). I think "L-M27/R2-L295" looks pretty clean, personally :D


and why R2-L295 when you mentioned my uncle was 295+ (ie not basal) and one of the two subclades under 295 was red, which leaves one possible outcome left in the tree, 294 which doesnt need to be tested for as its the only option left?

Like I said before, the Morley tree is outdated. There are a lot more subclades underneath R2-L295 now. R2-L723 and R2-L294 are but a couple of the numerous subclades out there.

Also, I mentioned that it's possible for someone to come under a subclade but be negative for all of the subclades beneath it. That person would come under a paragroup of the latest subclade he comes under.

https://i.gyazo.com/0049b2c50999277f49270283d7517e0b.png

Looking at the above sample for R2-Y1331, you have two samples who are positive for the SNPs under R2-Y1331 but negative for the SNPs of all the subclades beneath it (R2-Y20020 and R2-Y26635).

Those two samples come under the R2-Y1331* paragroup (a paragroup consists of samples under a subclade but none of the ones beneath it). The PK-JK sample on there is VintageSky from Anthrogenica, by the way.

Also, I would say that if you test with YSEQ, I recommend testing for Y1334 first, as this seems to be the main cluster of R2-L295 observed around the west coast of the subcontinent.

bmoney
08-12-2019, 09:39 AM
If you're going to have "R2-L295" ("Haplogroup-Terminal SNP" format) then you might as well be consistent with that. You could also have L1a1/R2a2b1b2b (ISOGG haplogroups) but that won't fit properly. Look at mine, even with the shorter format it still doesn't fit properly. Anthrogenica should have seperate sections for maternal Y-DNA and paternal mtDNA where applicable. I might make a suggestion on that actually.

ISOGG haplogroups change from time to time (i.e. R2-L295 changing from R2a1 to R2a2b1b2b), so it just makes more sense to have the "Haplogroup-Terminal SNP" format, as this pretty much never needs to be changed (obviously you'll need to change it when your maternal uncle is confirmed for another SNP downstream of R2-L295). I think "L-M27/R2-L295" looks pretty clean, personally :D



Like I said before, the Morley tree is outdated. There are a lot more subclades underneath R2-L295 now. R2-L723 and R2-L294 are but a couple of the numerous subclades out there.

Also, I mentioned that it's possible for someone to come under a subclade but be negative for all of the subclades beneath it. That person would come under a paragroup of the latest subclade he comes under.

https://i.gyazo.com/0049b2c50999277f49270283d7517e0b.png

Looking at the above sample for R2-Y1331, you have two samples who are positive for the SNPs under R2-Y1331 but negative for the SNPs of all the subclades beneath it (R2-Y20020 and R2-Y26635).

Those two samples come under the R2-Y1331* paragroup (a paragroup consists of samples under a subclade but none of the ones beneath it). The PK-JK sample on there is VintageSky from Anthrogenica, by the way.

Also, I would say that if you test with YSEQ, I recommend testing for Y1334 first, as this seems to be the main cluster of R2-L295 observed around the west coast of the subcontinent.

thanks for that - yeah will pass on the YSEQ for now

bmoney
08-12-2019, 12:06 PM
@Censored @bmoney
Got any reliable models for Thiyyas? How do they score wrt Velamas or Piramalai for example?
I don't understand why people keep using non-Tamil groups to model Tamil Brahmins, granted we don't have enough samples on G25 of Non-Brahmin Tamils(only Piramalai - mid caste and Sakilli - Scheduled Caste).
The substrate Brahmins would have met with in Tamil Nadu is completely different to what they would have met in Kerala. As it has been established on this forum most Malayalis come from either the Levant, Gulf or Gangetic plains - while Tamil castes are Dravidians from Adichallanur.

Tamil groups like Mudaliars that score close to Brahmin(or Nair)-tier(without the NE Euro), have as small a population as Brahmins do(if not smaller). Most mid-caste Tamils are likely around the Velama-Piramalai-Maratha level
I've picked out UPB closest to Mahadev Dubey ji for these models as the UPB average is a little dodgy(weird samples). This individual is among the least AASI UPBs-
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 2.0702,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 59.17,
"Maratha": 40.83,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.6576,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 57.5,
"Piramalai": 42.5,

"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.6326,
"Velamas": 54.17,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 45.83,
"Sakilli": 0,


However the moment one adds GBR -
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.6069,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 57.5,
"Velamas": 25.83,
"Sakilli": 15,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 1.67,

And standard caste Tamil being ~60% Velama + 40% Sakilli sounds very reasonable to me - almost Piramalai tier. However this model seems to imply that GBR directly entered Tamil-Nadu which in itself is a little iffy, but anyway
similarly -
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 0.8024,
"Brahmin_Gujarat": 50,
"Piramalai": 38.33,
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 11.67,



Meanwhile, the substrate in the case of Kerala is (much) less AASI to begin with. We don't, for example, know how much Steppe_MLBA ancestry present in Nairs is of Brahmin origin, as we have already established that cases like your maternal uncle are already more Steppic than most South Indian Brahmins(incl Nambudiris).

Nairs are around 15% of Kerala, and are the local elites, shudra or not. Nambudiris have a history of mixing with them, we don't know for sure if Nambudiris aren't(using member parasar, as I am forced to perform this run on the standard runner and lack nair/thiyya/nambudiri/namboothiri coords):

"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 2.1373,
"Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,


"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 1.8597,
"Kerala_Nair": 72.5,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 27.5,

or

"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 3.3543,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 63.33,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 36.67,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 2.5976,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 58.33,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 41.67,




I'd wager that they're somewhere between these two.
Of course, if you attempted to model Iyers with Nairs in the mix, Iyers would come out 100% Nair because they are identical proportions wise. But since Iyer and Nair have never come into contact at any time in history, it makes no sense to do this. Same with Thiyyas.

Nambudiris are less AASI than Iyers indeed, but that is completely besides the point here when differences in substrate are accounted for.

Firstly i have no knowledge of TN or Tamil culture. Ive been to Chennai airport once but thats it. 298123 and yourself know much more than I do

The substrate Brahmins would have met with in Tamil Nadu is completely different to what they would have met in Kerala. As it has been established on this forum most Malayalis come from either the Levant, Gulf or Gangetic plains - while Tamil castes are Dravidians from Adichallanur.

This comment makes no sense to me, when did anyone say anything about Malayalis or Tamils in this forum? in fact Malayalis are self aware that our origins are varied, even the wiki page says so. The term Malayali is hardly ever used on this forum. Kerala, a geographical term, is used more frequently

I know a couple of 2nd gen Iyers in the West, but im not joking when i say northern Kerala has next to no Tamil influence but does have Kannada and Tulu influence (certain parts of my family grew up bilingual in Tulu). Areas like Palakkad do have Tamil influence, but ive only met Palakkad Iyers in the West and ive been to Ottapalam once in my life

The fact is that Nambudiris, Shivalli and Havyak Brahmins have the same mythological origin, which cant be coincidental, and a different timeline of origin (much later). I cant say ive read that Iyers and Iyengars share this history (and I know that there are various different subcastes present in Iyer/Iyrengars). If you guys have origin texts please share it, id be interested

Nambudiris, who we have samples of, can be modelled as UP Brahmins and Thiyyas. I have read about their history extensively as they also mention Nairs (Kiriathil) as of the same geographic origin as them in their written works, and based on my uncles result whos top mixed mode is 2/3 UP Brahmin + Reddy (literally), the genetics line up with the text

In fact Thiyyas themselves show variation, one has clear Indo-Aryan steppe ancestry of an unknown source. Syrian Christians like Traject also score significant steppe so there is some low level Indo-Aryan signal happening in Kerala which I have hypothesized before as related to perhaps Asokan Buddhist times

Kerala pops

https://i.imgur.com/yWULar1.png

Tamil pops

https://i.imgur.com/LEgfiH8.png

Regarding the local Reddy like pop that Iyers could be modelled with, i dont know, like you said we have a dearth of Tamil mid caste samples on G25 so I have no ideas on what it could be, but it needs to be a Gujarat Patel shifted high Iran N pop like Reddy IMO

GBR could be the source, but that would require almost 100% GBR ancestry as some GBRs actually score like full Iyers on G25, which could imply that Iyers did not mix with Tamils in 2k years. This seems unlikely to me.

Also i havent read anything about Gujarati culture or origin references among Iyer origin theories, but ill leave Iyer origins and/or substrate mix hypothesis to you guys

bmoney
08-13-2019, 11:19 AM
Nair average makes no sense, might as well make a Singh average or Thakur average. My uncle gets Nair at 17th position on Harappa, literally the whole gamut of North Indian communities 1000s of kms away and unrelated Southern Brahmins before he gets Nair

If youre trying to represent the pre-Brahmin population of Kerala, Thiyya are a better representative as 'Nair' were not mentioned before Brahmins arrived in the record

Nairs are a mixed lot with some clearly having purely local ancestry (either the Reddy type or the Piramalai Ezhava/Thiyya type), some enriched for Gangetic ancestry and most in the middle. One of the Kerala Nairs in the HAP average is 0% NE Euro but scores similar to Reddys, ie Baloch/Caucasian shift that can easily play as substrate for a West Indian shift

My position is that a section of Nair/Ambalavasis/Bunts migrated with Brahmins as Hindus compared to the outcasted formerly Buddhist+Agamic Ezhava/Thiyya, which means Nairs (some endogamous communities who score similar to each other such as Nambiars) require a model of local admixture too, being something UP Kshatriya like initially before admixing with pops like high Iran N Syrian Christians along with assimilated castes who were granted the title Nair when it became synonymous with soldier in Kerala. There is a subcaste called Tamil Padam Nair who are Nairs but likely entirely of Tamil non-Brahmin descent. There are also mixed samples like Vishankar who are actual Brahmin mixes which further complicates and makes redundant any use of the Nair average on G25.

Further to those endogamous divisions, unlike TN, Kerala historically has no to minimal interaction between regions (broadly delineated to kingdoms such as Cochin Travancore etc, although Malabar district which was part of Madras State had distinct subregions within it), not sure why, and real cities form a small % of the pop unlike megacities like Chennai. People generally only mix or interact within their own regions almost to this day and this plays out in genetics

People from Kottayam likely have never interacted with people from Kasargod outside cities (probably outside Kerala) and Kerala cities dont really have the economic leverage to pull Malayalis across from other regions. The closest big city from where im from, Kannur, literally to this day is likely >95% (Malayalis) from adjoining districts or out of state army or labourers such as Oriya. The Nambiar cousins of my generation in India/Middle East are still marrying Nambiars (mostly) from Bangalore, Mangalore, Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai etc. The first time i went to Kochi was as an adult because my relative married a Syrian Christian from Delhi in the army (the family speaks Hindi at home) and she had family in the region so they decided to retire there. Castes of similar characteristics from different regions like Thiyyas (Malabar) and Ezhavas (rest of Kerala) maintain endogamy and claim to be distinct, and likely they are genetically though not on a large scale

Most Malayalis i meet in the West my age dont know where Kannur is or what a Nambiar is, some didnt know Hindus exist in Kerala, so outside of actual family or distant relatives, we have no Malayali friends. The bulk of the pop here (like elsewhere in the West) is of Syrian Christian ancestry from Kottayam and Malayali associations here are usually from the Kochi area

My dad likely scores quite different to my uncle (hes from an adjoining region and subcaste who my mums region historically did not interact with) as I have higher Baloch/Caucasian than my uncle and my NE Euro is 60% of his (excl my Med which might or might not be steppe related). I assume my Dad is a lot closer to the high Iran N elite Malayali pop and would get Syrian Christian in top 10 oracle range

Re GBR, my point was more that if a 100% GBR can score within Iyer range, its more an argument for artificial similarity rather than descent when culture, language or custom makes no mention of the land of Gujarat. Remember GBRs were probably a mixed pop too since Gujarati Patels can vary significantly from them. GBRs require a steppe source that Gujarati Muslim (Baloch shift) or Patel (both likely more numerous and therefore a better representative of Gujarat) cant provide


Old Gujarātī (જૂની ગુજરાતી; also called ગુજરાતી ભાખા Gujarātī bhākhā or ગુર્જર અપભ્રંશ Gurjar apabhraṃśa, 1000 CE1500 CE), the ancestor of modern Gujarati and Rajasthani,[2] was spoken by the Gurjars, who were residing and ruling in Gujarat, Punjab, Rajputana and central India.[3][4] The language was used as literary language as early as the 12th century. Texts of this era display characteristic Gujarati features such as direct/oblique noun forms, postpositions, and auxiliary verbs.[5] It had three genders, as Gujarati does today, and by around the time of 1300 CE, a fairly standardized form of this language emerged. While generally known as Old Gujarati, some scholars prefer the name of Old Western Rajasthani, based on the argument that Gujarati and Rajasthani were not yet distinct.

Regarding your Nambudiri modelling, the really Baloch shifted Nambudiri sample that the HAP average is based off (who btw scores significantly different to the NE Euro shifted Nambudiri sample) can be modelled with a high Iran N substrate who can be found all over Kerala, look at Scobars result for example (though he probably has ME mix). Yes a higher Iran and lower AASI substrate can be found in Kerala but my argument is it can be found in TN too. What are the pseudo-Kshatriya like pops in TN? Mudaliars?

client
08-13-2019, 02:17 PM
Nair average makes no sense, might as well make a Singh average or Thakur average. My uncle gets Nair at 17th position on Harappa, literally the whole gamut of North Indian communities 1000s of kms away and unrelated Southern Brahmins before he gets Nair


Agreed, this was a mistake on my part, I did not use the Nair average, but Nair Individual References(as I am a free-tier user, and do not have Nair or Nambudiri coordinates to use on freeform - would be great if you could share them). Regardless, the fit was better with the Nair Individuals in place of Thiyya Individuals.



If youre trying to represent the pre-Brahmin population of Kerala, Thiyya are a better representative as 'Nair' were not mentioned before Brahmins arrived in the record


Between the two questions - identity of non-Brahmin substrate in Nambudiris vs who was present in Kerala when, the former takes precedence in this debate(as it is the entire point of the debate). Notice how the two questions I have posed are different to each other.



Nairs are a mixed lot with some clearly having purely local ancestry (either the Reddy type or the Piramalai Ezhava/Thiyya type), some enriched for Gangetic ancestry and most in the middle. One of the Kerala Nairs in the HAP average is 0% NE Euro but scores similar to Reddys, ie Baloch/Caucasian shift that can easily play as substrate for a West Indian shift

My position is that a section of Nair/Ambalavasis/Bunts migrated with Brahmins as Hindus compared to the outcasted formerly Buddhist+Agamic Ezhava/Thiyya, which means Nairs (some endogamous communities who score similar to each other such as Nambiars) require a model of local admixture too, being something UP Kshatriya like initially before admixing with pops like high Iran N Syrian Christians along with assimilated castes who were granted the title Nair when it became synonymous with soldier in Kerala. There is a subcaste called Tamil Padam Nair who are Nairs but likely entirely of Tamil non-Brahmin descent. There are also mixed samples like Vishankar who are actual Brahmin mixes which further complicates and makes redundant any use of the Nair average on G25.

Nair nuances can be discussed separately IMO, what is being discussed is the question I posed earlier. The samples labelled "Nair" here(whatever they may be, no matter how they are different) on individual references provide a crisper fit when used in place of Thiyya. The point here is that the people labelled Nairs are inhabitants of Kerala, no matter how they differ, where they plot, etc etc.



Further to that, unlike TN, Kerala generally has no interaction between regions and real cities form a small % of the pop unlike megacities like Chennai. People generally only mix into their own regions to this day and this plays out in genetics


I do not know enough about the population dynamics of Tamil Nadu or Kerala to concur.


People from Kottayam likely have never interacted with people from Kasargod outside cities and Kerala cities dont really have the economic leverage to pull Malayalis across from regions. The closest big city from where im from, Kannur, literally to this day is likely >95% (Malayalis) from adjoining districts or out of state army or labourers such as Oriya. The Nambiar cousins of my generation in Kerala are still marrying Nambiars from Bangalore, Mangalore, Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai etc. The first time i went to Kochi was as an adult because my relative married a Syrian Christian from Delhi in the army (the family speaks Hindi at home) and she had family in the region so they decided to retire there

Most Malayalis i meet in the West my age dont know where Kannur is or what a Nambiar is, some didnt know Hindus exist in Kerala, so outside of actual family or distant relatives, we have no Malayali friends. The bulk of the pop here (like elsewhere in the West) is of Syrian Christian ancestry from Kottayam and Malayali associations here are usually from the Kochi area


Let us discuss this at length, at a later date.



My dad likely scores quite different to my uncle (hes from an adjoining region and subcaste who my mums caste historically never married into) as I have higher Baloch/Caucasian than my uncle and my NE Euro is 60% of his (excl my Med which might or might not be steppe related). I assume my Dad is a lot closer to the high Iran N elite Malayali pop and would get Syrian Christian in top 10 oracle range

Interesting.



Re GBR, my point was more that if a 100% GBR can score within Iyer range,


Mate, I already mentioned that I used the GBR Average(on freeform nmonte), and not the few Iyer-like outlier Gujaratis individually. Take this Gujarati average as a distinct individual for the sake of this argument. This GujaratiAverage hypothetical Individual is not Iyer-like at all, and is actually more distant to Iyer than the UP Brahmin average.
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"closestDistances": [
"Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:undefined: 3.301201",
"Brahmin_Gujarat:undefined: 4.283568"
]
Iyer is as distant to GBR(Average) as it is to Velama. Ror and Kalash are closer to each other than Iyer and GBR(Average).

So it is of no consequence whatsoever how some GBR outliers are with respect to any models I have done so far.


its more an argument for artificial similarity rather than descent when culture, language or custom makes no mention of the land of Gujarat.


For the fifth and last time, I request you to bestow upon me all your knowledge of Iyer/Iyengar/Tamil Brahmin culture/language/customs, sparing no detail.

I have already stated that the Narmada river reverence is a likely a vestigial custom referring to the Gujarat area, at least among some sects.
If you claim to have literary knowledge of the origin of (the other sects of)Tamil Brahmins(which I do not), please do not withhold it any further.



Remember GBRs were probably a mixed pop too since Gujarati Patels can vary significantly from them. GBRs require a steppe source that Gujarati Muslim (Baloch shift) or Patel (both likely more numerous and therefore a better representative of Gujarat) cant provide

All Brahmins, whether UP or Gujarati or Iyer or Nambudiri, are mixed. The key difference is the substrate they interacted with and the diffusion distance from the epicenter. To claim that only specific subsets of the Brahmin populace have acquired any non-Brahmin admixture since the Brahmin ethnogenesis would
be fallacious.



Old Gujarātī (જૂની ગુજરાતી; also called ગુજરાતી ભાખા Gujarātī bhākhā or ગુર્જર અપભ્રંશ Gurjar apabhraṃśa, 1000 CE–1500 CE), the ancestor of modern Gujarati and Rajasthani,[2] was spoken by the Gurjars, who were residing and ruling in Gujarat, Punjab, Rajputana and central India.[3][4] The language was used as literary language as early as the 12th century. Texts of this era display characteristic Gujarati features such as direct/oblique noun forms, postpositions, and auxiliary verbs.[5] It had three genders, as Gujarati does today, and by around the time of 1300 CE, a fairly standardized form of this language emerged. While generally known as Old Gujarati, some scholars prefer the name of Old Western Rajasthani, based on the argument that Gujarati and Rajasthani were not yet distinct.
Indeed, Tamil Brahmins don't speak Gujarati, but they don't speak Hindi either. Do Nambudiris and Nairs speak Hindi though?



Regarding your Nambudiri modelling, the really Baloch shifted Nambudiri sample that the HAP average is based off (who btw scores significantly different to the NE Euro shifted Nambudiri sample) can be modelled with a high Iran N substrate who can be found all over Kerala, look at Scobars result for example (though he probably has ME mix). Yes a higher Iran and lower AASI substrate can be found in Kerala but my argument is it can be found in TN too. What are the pseudo-Kshatriya like pops in TN? Mudaliars?

I don't know about the HAP average I only know the two Nambudiris(one is spelt Namboothiri, and therefore is listed separately) from Kannur and Payyannur on poi's nMonte Runner. Since they are listed separately, I have run them independently to avoid confusion.

Using individual references:

"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 2.1375,
"Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 1.8564,
"Kerala_Nair": 71.67,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 28.33,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,



(using harappaworld conventions)
There are no actual Kshatriya like pops in Tamil Nadu to my knowledge, and Mudaliars(though this is technically a title) who score closest to Brahmins(low 50s SI) have a population of around 4% tops.
In Tamil Nadu, the only groups that score <50% SI and significant NE Euro are the Brahmins, while in Kerala <50% SI + significant NE Euro scoring groups are abundant, as you have illustrated. Make of this what you will.

26284729292
08-13-2019, 05:45 PM
Just because a few GBR overlap wtih iyers, doesn't mean that GBR didn't migrate to TN. Especially because we don't know all the GBR sub branches. Some may be more NW shifted than others. In addition, some Iyers are more NW shifted than others due to endogamy, time of migration, etc. Same with Iyengars, I assume.

Again maybe it's an artificial similarity, but the GBR fit is `.6, while the UP brahmin fit is ~2. If Karnataka Brahmin and Deshastha Brahmin samples score similarly with the same GBR-maratha/pirmalai type model, wouldn't this indicate a diffusion of GBR ancestry down the coast for SOME brahmin groups?

And to your point about endogamy, I don't have a hard time believing some iyers have not mixed into the local population substantially at all, if that's your point based on varun and a few of the more NW shifted iyer/tambram samples. Creating an iyer from a up brahmin base would be very difficult. Hence the fits being poorer.

bmoney
08-14-2019, 03:49 AM
Indeed, Tamil Brahmins don't speak Gujarati, but they don't speak Hindi either. Do Nambudiris and Nairs speak Hindi though?

They brought Sanskrit and infused it into the local version of Tamil initially. the epicentre of Sanskrit promotion was the Western Ganges even though by and large prakrit was spoken by the masses

Sanskrit was spoken both by Nambudiris and Iyers

I dont need to prove that Gujarati tradition existed in Iyer culture, but Gujarati origin does not even exist as a single mention in Iyer related info pages. The onus is on you as the Brahmin epicentre of the Gangetic region (going by Ror-like Indo-Aryan ancestry) requires less logical steps than a Ganges to Gujarat to TN migration. A Narmada river reference might play into it but isnt enough on its on to even form a theory

Cases may exist for subcastes that im not aware of as 213123 raises

You use GBRs for modelling. How about this, model ANY South Indian with 50% or less AASI and see the amount of Gujarati pops coming up in the oracle, so see the fit when using Gujarat Patel compared to UP Yadav for example. Chances are that using the former pop will result in much tighter fits for these IranN enriched South Indian samples

Based on the strength of your argument, all of these South Indian samples can also be of Gujarati origin as they have as much written or oral history as being from Gujarat (aka none). I find that unlikely and think it is due to common IVC ancestry or similar ratios than actual Gujarat ancestry

The common Iran N/AASI ratios that pull these pops closer is the same case with GBRs playing better in Iyer models, because GBRS have higher Iran N than UP Brahmin

Its like saying AASI South is from AASI NW because both are predominantly AASI

As referenced by others in this forum, a 2 distance model is well within realistic fits (two people from the same ethnic group can be a 2 fit) and a fit below 1 would normally be called overfitting

client
08-14-2019, 07:26 AM
I'm not sure you understand what fit distances mean, they are the euclidean distance from the reference combination to the target. Overfitting occurs when one uses too many similar references creating a "really close fit". I hadn't used more than the necessary number of parameters at all, a really crisp fit is acquired with simply 2-3 parameters.
This overfitting question will go away once we begin modelling Individual Iyers in the same model(they'll have fits of 1-2, which is ideal)

All brahmins should ideally have origins from the UP-Haryana area, the question is regarding the intermediaries involved. Somehow, the GBR sample creates the most crisp models, perhaps by chance. But let's assume the GBR origin theory is pure nonsense(neglecting the evidence that exists for some sects), and let's disregard it completely.

(on individual references runner, where there are three similar piramalai samples)
"sample": "Iyer:Average",
"fit": 1.1835,
"Piramalai": 65,
"Jatt_Pathak": 35,

on freeform using piramalai average(so only 2 references involved, before you say this is overfitted somehow)
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.3173,
"Piramalai": 63.33,
"Jatt_Pathak": 36.67,

Now, Jaat/ror like hypothetical Brahmins didn't teleport to all parts of India simultaneously and begin mixing with the substrate there, it was a gradual diffusion from the Gangetic epicenter. My point being, that Proto Iyers were already x*Jaat/Ror + y*Piramalai before having set foot in Tamilakam.

"sample": "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:mahadev_dubey_AGUser",
"fit": 1.6674,
"Jatt_Pathak": 57.5,
"Piramalai": 42.5,



Doing the math based on this rough model(forced to do this due to lack of individual coords, and the strange nature of the UPB average)
Jatt_Pathak ancestry is exclusively from the Brahmin side so 35/57.5 ≈ 60% UP Brahmin(individual) + 40% Piramalai(≈Standard Tamil) = Iyer(Average)

If you want to talk in terms of the Bhumihar sample(member parasar)-
"sample": "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar:parasar_AGUser",
"fit": 2.8351,
"Jatt_Pathak": 59.17,
"Piramalai": 40.83,

(very close)
"sample": "Iyer:Average",
"fit": 1.4964,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 59.17,
"Piramalai": 40.83,



However, Tamil Brahmin origin is not what I am concerned with, I want you to empirically dismantle my claim that Nambudiris are(could be) 70-80% Nair and 20-30% UP/Bihari Brahmin.

"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 2.1375,
"Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 1.8564,
"Kerala_Nair": 71.67,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 28.33,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

In terms of Jatt_Pathak
"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 1.9343,
"Kerala_Nair": 87.5,
"Jatt_Pathak": 12.5,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 2.0064,
"Kerala_Nair": 90.83,
"Jatt_Pathak": 9.17,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

What we know:
- Proto Nambudiris and Proto Nairs walked hand in hand into Kerala(based on what I have read on this forum).
- It is an integral part of Nambudiri/Nair culture to mix with Nair/Nambudiris.
- Proto-Nairs were likely Indo-Aryan(as you say, UP Kshatriya), and therefore their IA ancestry isn't(by far) simply the result of Sambandam.

bmoney
08-14-2019, 08:46 AM
overfitting also in this forum has been used to describe scenarios where artificial combinations provide better fits, which is what i was describing.

As i said before, South Indian Iran N enriched pops gravitate towards Gujarat, it doesnt require actual Gujarati Indo-Aryan origin.

This is my position regarding the BMAC, was there BMAC ancestry or something prior to that widespread in South Asia? i dont know, but something that models like them

As i suggested, run Kerala Syrian Christians and use a UP pop of similar rank vs Gujarati Patels

How do they model?

Look at this Kerala Brahmin sample

kerala-brahmin
harappa
1
43% S Indian
39% Baloch
4% Caucasian
6% NE Euro
1% SE Asian
1% Siberian
2% NE Asian
0% Papuan
0% American
1% Beringian
0% Mediterranean
4% SW Asian
0% San
0% E African
0% Pygmy
0% W African

This sample will model better (lower distance) than most Iyers using the best fit run you did for Iyers. Does this mean its from Gujarat?

Iran N shift with 40-50 range South Indian pushes any sample towards Gujarat or similar Iran N shift with less South Indian pushes you towards NW pops like Gujjars

High Baloch seen in mixed mode oracles in samples like Kush is artificial Iran N shift, unless Reddys from Kushes caste have a tradition of being Balochi migrants


However, Tamil Brahmin origin is not what I am concerned with, I want you to empirically dismantle my claim that Nambudiris are(could be) 70-80% Nair and 20-30% UP/Bihari Brahmin.

You can also model UP Kshatriyas using UP Brahmins and lower caste pop

UP Yadavs using UP Brahmins and a lower caste pop

Nambudiris as UP Brahmins and Kurmis

Have you considered populations of different castes (ie an actual representative sample of a group from a region) from the same region migrated together?

Yes sambandham (which i first heard of from wikipedia) exists - but this is known to families who partook in it. Some Nair castes take pride in it, as it sets their ritual status higher than other castes

There is no reason to hide this mixing, hence it is documented where it exists. I dont see why Nair is needed to model Nambudiris when many castes either in the Ganges or Kerala can be used


It is an integral part of Nambudiri/Nair culture to mix with Nair/Nambudiris.

No it is not an integral part

All Nambiars that vishankar has posted, have indicated they have no Brahmin mix

To support that, the Brahmin population barely exists in northern Kerala, the numerical bulk of them and their settlements are in Central Kerala which is who Nair history on wikipedia is derived from (Central Kerala Nairs) as stated in the article

there are village Hindu temples in northern Kerala that have no Brahmins (unheard of in Indo-Aryan society) and are manned by either Nambiar patrons or Poduvals and other Ambalavasi (another caste likely with the same origin as proto-Nair) possibly due to low Brahmin numbers

client
08-14-2019, 08:56 AM
All I asked was to prove that Nambudiris aren't 80% Nair and 20% Brahmin, which clearly you are unable to do.

Are you seriously asking why Nair should be used in a model that concerns Nambudiri? If so, we have reached a dead end. I will not pursue this discussion any further.

bmoney
08-14-2019, 09:27 AM
All I asked was to prove that Nambudiris aren't 80% Nair and 20% Brahmin, which clearly you are unable to do.

Are you seriously asking why Nair should be used in a model that concerns Nambudiri? If so, we have reached a dead end. I will not pursue this discussion any further.

im not trying to be harsh here, i do appreciate the modelling as way to falsify a scenario and im never going to challenge the actual numbers, so ive edited my post

i dont need to prove it, i dont doubt your model - i just think its hypothetical given no such mixes existed and the amount of evidence youll need to prove that this was the foundation of Nambudiris, using a Nair sample which could represent proto-Nair but chances are it wont

UP Brahmins can be modelled as UP Kshatriya plus a higher steppe-enriched source, also a hypothetical but likely just components jumping around to better fit proportions

Much more likely scenario, proto-Nambudiri + Kerala pop of higher rank in various proportions (probably maternally) which reduces steppe and increases Iran N and a bit of AASI and shifts Nambudiris towards Iyers in terms of fit (who i wont speculate on)

A scenario for proto Nair/Bunt (where not assimilated), UP Kshatriya (or something thereabouts as this was 1300 years ago) mix with local population X who range from high Iran shifted like Reddys (like one of the HAP Nair samples) to Ezhavas who score more like Piramalai and Maratha also accounting for the probably pre-Brahmin steppe seen all over Kerala

bmoney
08-14-2019, 09:55 AM
some sources for Sambandham and other facts that provide context:

These people lived, and continue to live, in the area which is now the Indian state of Kerala. Their internal caste behaviours and systems are markedly different between the people in the northern and southern sections of the area, although there is not very much reliable information on those inhabiting the north.[4]

The Nambudiri Brahmin tradition which limited the extent of marriage within their own caste led to the practice of hypergamy. Gough notes that
These hypergamous unions were regarded by Brahmans as socially acceptable concubinage, for the union was not initiated with Vedic rites, the children were not legitimized as Brahmans, and neither the woman nor her child was accorded the rights of kin.

Although it is certain that in theory hypergamy can cause a shortage of marriageable women in the lowest ranks of a caste and promote upwards social movement from the lower Nair subdivisions, the numbers involved would have been very small. It was not a common practice outside the higher subcaste groups.[128] Fuller, Christopher John (Winter 1975). "The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste". Journal of Anthropological Research.

And were talking Central Kerala Nairs here, where the bulk of the practice and Brahmin numbers existed, it was small even there

regarding Thiyyas (called Tiar), the last section which outlines what happened to a Nambudiri fornicating with a lower caste, against Pegasus widespread Brahmin insemination for South India R1a scenario (also Brahmins are too late on the scene in many areas of South India 700 AD+ to cause a rapid rise in R1a to top 4 status)

https://i.imgur.com/AZq6wSX.png

vishankar
08-14-2019, 02:59 PM
HI....ha ha " fornicating"""..i ilike the word!!!
however nambudiris as per my info spreading their seed among thiyyas was extremely rare,but outcasted Nambudiri women were taken and given refuge by a particular thiyya titular head- the Mannanars , possibly taken as spouses too...there is an interesting article, a thesis i think-" STAIN OF WHITE", which speaks about thiyya intermarriage with europeans- possiblyin one generation in British Malabar, i do remember one thiyya lady being mentioned as having a nair paramour,a British army officer and also a thiyya husband...but this phenomenon was possibly limited to few families of tellicherry and kannur!.

vishankar
08-14-2019, 03:03 PM
interestingly two of the three thiyya samples i have , a male from kozhikode and a female from tellicherry have sinhalese in their top 20 on harappa oracle, it gives credence to the sinhalese origins of the thiyyas, i dont think i have seen sinhalese among other HAP samples from India.
the sinhalese themselves were migrants from present day orissa and possible Magadha in Bihar , and this may explain the small NE euro ( in the 1.0-1.5 ) range, which we see in the thiyya samples so far!

vishankar
08-14-2019, 03:13 PM
another couple of nuggets of information i have collected by oral accounts-
1) Vaniyas in Kasargod are not given nair status.they are just Vaniyas.
2) However in Kannur- they are designated nairs, and even attach nair as a surname.
3)there is a nair subcaste -Adiyodi in northern Kannur and adjoining areas which has extensive nambudiri admixture ( my cobrother-local terminology for sisters- in law husband is one such individual).to the last generation, they have nambudiri connubial relations and take great pride in differentiating themselves from Nambiars as " more Brahmin ".
4)there are a significant number of nairs ( not vaniya, etc) but proper nairs who are not nambiars , but considered just a little below..phew!!!

BMG
08-14-2019, 03:50 PM
some sources for Sambandham and other facts that provide context:

These people lived, and continue to live, in the area which is now the Indian state of Kerala. Their internal caste behaviours and systems are markedly different between the people in the northern and southern sections of the area, although there is not very much reliable information on those inhabiting the north.[4]

The Nambudiri Brahmin tradition which limited the extent of marriage within their own caste led to the practice of hypergamy. Gough notes that
These hypergamous unions were regarded by Brahmans as socially acceptable concubinage, for the union was not initiated with Vedic rites, the children were not legitimized as Brahmans, and neither the woman nor her child was accorded the rights of kin.

Although it is certain that in theory hypergamy can cause a shortage of marriageable women in the lowest ranks of a caste and promote upwards social movement from the lower Nair subdivisions, the numbers involved would have been very small. It was not a common practice outside the higher subcaste groups.[128] Fuller, Christopher John (Winter 1975). "The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste". Journal of Anthropological Research.

And were talking Central Kerala Nairs here, where the bulk of the practice and Brahmin numbers existed, it was small even there

regarding Thiyyas (called Tiar), the last section which outlines what happened to a Nambudiri fornicating with a lower caste, against Pegasus widespread Brahmin insemination for South India R1a scenario (also Brahmins are too late on the scene in many areas of South India 700 AD+ to cause a rapid rise in R1a to top 4 status)

https://i.imgur.com/AZq6wSX.png

Another thing about central Kerala Nairs are that they have marital alliances with ruling families . Few of such Nair families are given kshatriya status by these rulers and considered them at par with themselves . The situation was similar is Calicut where Samudiri families also married Nairs rather than other royal families (excluding other Samudiri families ) .The Samudiri title was held by the head of any of those families and the next heir was decided by these families . It helped them to contain the power within themselves for many centuries .
Conversely in South Kerala the royal families married only brahmins . The heir to the throne was current ruler's sisters son not his own son and the sister will be married to a brahmin and their son will be next ruler .This system allowed brahmins to have major control over the royal families.

vishankar
08-16-2019, 06:36 PM
here is the dna.land result of my wife's aunt- nambiar lady.32489

vishankar
08-16-2019, 06:50 PM
kozhikode thiyya male-32490

vishankar
08-16-2019, 06:59 PM
my sole bunt sample-32491

vishankar
08-16-2019, 07:09 PM
just a few observations- nairs and nambiars seem to consistently get a ne / or north west euro component( at least all the samples i have uploaded n dna.land do,)
the thiyya lady whic i posted a little while back had sardinian aside from the ubiquitous dravidian which we all have)))...sardinian- a hall mark of the first neolithic farmer migrants to europe.
the bunt was puzzling- no european at all!!!!...but high INDO- IRANIAN AT 26%!..
dear friends, more than a penny for your thoughts!

tipirneni
08-16-2019, 09:16 PM
just a few observations- nairs and nambiars seem to consistently get a ne / or north west euro component( at least all the samples i have uploaded n dna.land do,)
the thiyya lady whic i posted a little while back had sardinian aside from the ubiquitous dravidian which we all have)))...sardinian- a hall mark of the first neolithic farmer migrants to europe.
the bunt was puzzling- no european at all!!!!...but high INDO- IRANIAN AT 26%!..
dear friends, more than a penny for your thoughts!

Maybe you got rare samples but not the common ones that indicate average phenotype

vishankar
08-17-2019, 02:52 AM
Maybe you got rare samples but not the common ones that indicate average phenotype

ha ha ))...not very rare...have to get some more bunts, it is not easy!nairs and thiyyas - we will soon have a pattern going by the number of samples i have collected ,but the single Bunt sample is not of much use-phenotypically he is a tall and fair, so yet again genotype stumps phenotype!

JTM
08-19-2019, 05:34 AM
Hi there,
I am new to this forum. I am planning to take a DNA test, however a little skeptical about which test should I take. I have seen companies offering autosomal test, ydna test and mtdna test. Which one will be useful for me to trace the ethnicity? By the way my family(Kerala Christian) history says about a Hindu origin . However I just want to see my genetics. Would appreciate your valuable suggestions. Thank you.

vishankar
08-19-2019, 02:24 PM
Hi there,
I am new to this forum. I am planning to take a DNA test, however a little skeptical about which test should I take. I have seen companies offering autosomal test, ydna test and mtdna test. Which one will be useful for me to trace the ethnicity? By the way my family(Kerala Christian) history says about a Hindu origin . However I just want to see my genetics. Would appreciate your valuable suggestions. Thank you.

i have used family tree dna , there is an offer on right now!...till august 31st. check out the website!...if you stay out of India , even 23and me is a good option!

client
08-19-2019, 02:42 PM
i have used family tree dna , there is an offer on right now!...till august 31st. check out the website!...if you stay out of India , even 23and me is a good option!
FTDNA ships to India?? Are all their services available in India?

JTM
08-19-2019, 03:53 PM
Well, Thank U. Just want to confirm whether FTDNA offers mtdna and ydna haplo group information also.

Thanks

BMG
08-19-2019, 04:10 PM
Hi there,
I am new to this forum. I am planning to take a DNA test, however a little skeptical about which test should I take. I have seen companies offering autosomal test, ydna test and mtdna test. Which one will be useful for me to trace the ethnicity? By the way my family(Kerala Christian) history says about a Hindu origin . However I just want to see my genetics. Would appreciate your valuable suggestions. Thank you.
Is there anything specific you want to particularly confirm. Autosomal data would be enough for recent ancestry . FTDNA is better option if you want to take only the autosomal test .
Where is your home in Kerala ?

BMG
08-19-2019, 04:11 PM
FTDNA ships to India?? Are all their services available in India?

Yes all their services are available in India

Amber29
08-19-2019, 04:23 PM
FTDNA ships to India?? Are all their services available in India?

I sent mine too pakistan with dry swab kits for my grandparents.... shipping and all cost i sent three kits. Plus i couldnt send the liquid preservation with it due to the restrictin where my cousin lives.. but it being sent back today

Just double check the restrictions and then speak to the team and go ahead 😄

vishankar
08-19-2019, 04:34 PM
FTDNA ships to India?? Are all their services available in India?

yes...both ft dna and my heritage do ship...but i had a huge financial headache and customs problem with my heritage..I would recommend ft dna

BMG
08-19-2019, 04:40 PM
yes...both ft dna and my heritage do ship...but i had a huge financial headache and customs problem with my heritage..I would recommend ft dna
Have you tested for R1a subclades . Do you know any other Nair tested for R1a subclades ?

Arlus
08-19-2019, 05:06 PM
yes...both ft dna and my heritage do ship...but i had a huge financial headache and customs problem with my heritage..I would recommend ft dna

That's bad. I purchased a myheritage kit in 2017, I had no problem with customs. If things are still the same then one has to specially request FTDNA if they wish to pay via PAYPAL which was a problem in my case (FTDNA was my first choice). I think most companies declare the value of their kits around 5USD which shouldn't attract any custom duties. Familyfinder & myheritage would have similar prices anyways.

JTM
08-19-2019, 08:39 PM
Thanks for the reply. I am from Eastern side of Ernakulam district; Muvattupuzha.
1)My family history claims a Hindu conversion especially a higher caste. Is it true or not? We could use modern methods to prove it or not?
2) My maternal grand mother look like middle eastern, extremely fair with long nose and all their family members are very fair color ( you will notice it ). So is there any way to trace their origin with my mt dna?
Thanks

Censored
08-19-2019, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the reply. I am from Eastern side of Ernakulam district; Muvattupuzha.
1)My family history claims a Hindu conversion especially a higher caste. Is it true or not? We could use modern methods to prove it or not?
2) My maternal grand mother look like middle eastern, extremely fair with long nose and all their family members are very fair color ( you will notice it ). So is there any way to trace their origin with my mt dna?
Thanks

With haplogroups alone you can't. Autosomal ancestry is needed for that. Case in point both my haplogroups are west eurasian in origin but i am one of the more southern shifted members.

JTM
08-19-2019, 10:32 PM
Thanks. Would you suggest me to go for an autosomal DNA testing?
If so what could I learn from the result? thanks

Censored
08-19-2019, 11:18 PM
Thanks. Would you suggest me to go for an autosomal DNA testing?
If so what could I learn from the result? thanks

Im not familiar on how haplogroup-only tests work or how they turn out, but you will get both haplogroups and autosomal ancestry from most major companies anyway. Your results can tell you where your ancestors have lived in the last 1000 years.

JTM
08-20-2019, 12:19 AM
OK Thank you. So if I go for FTDNA $59 Family finder test; that will be ok?

BMG
08-20-2019, 02:14 AM
Thanks for the reply. I am from Eastern side of Ernakulam district; Muvattupuzha.
1)My family history claims a Hindu conversion especially a higher caste. Is it true or not? We could use modern methods to prove it or not?
2) My maternal grand mother look like middle eastern, extremely fair with long nose and all their family members are very fair color ( you will notice it ). So is there any way to trace their origin with my mt dna?
Thanks
If you are a jacobite I would be interested in your results as well . Are you from Cheerathottam family ? It is only family from that area I know who claim a high caste conversion story .

If you have recent Brahmin ancestry then you will have higher steppe ancestry than Syrian Christian average . However if it is more than 3 generations it would drastically reduced . But again a higher steppe cannot confirm a recent Hindu ancestry as in my case .I have a higher steppe ancestry than average which is more similar to Nairs and my father's side have even higher but at least upto 5 generations all my ancestors identified as Syrian. Christians only .
Again if you have recent Hindu ancestry you might get some Hindu matches which can confirm it for you but since few Hindus from Kerala has tested the chances are less .

In your case then I think family finder Should be enough

JTM
08-20-2019, 12:12 PM
If you are a jacobite I would be interested in your results as well . Are you from Cheerathottam family ? It is only family from that area I know who claim a high caste conversion story .

If you have recent Brahmin ancestry then you will have higher steppe ancestry than Syrian Christian average . However if it is more than 3 generations it would drastically reduced . But again a higher steppe cannot confirm a recent Hindu ancestry as in my case .I have a higher steppe ancestry than average which is more similar to Nairs and my father's side have even higher but at least upto 5 generations all my ancestors identified as Syrian. Christians only .
Again if you have recent Hindu ancestry you might get some Hindu matches which can confirm it for you but since few Hindus from Kerala has tested the chances are less .

In your case then I think family finder Should be enough

Yes I am a Jacobite Christian. However my family is not recently converted. Family history says 5 generations ago a member from Pakalomattom family of Kuravilangad church shifted to Muvattupuzha especially during the time of Coonan cross oath .
So if I do family fonder test, would I get any information about haplogroups? Thanks

BMG
08-20-2019, 02:10 PM
Yes I am a Jacobite Christian. However my family is not recently converted. Family history says 5 generations ago a member from Pakalomattom family of Kuravilangad church shifted to Muvattupuzha especially during the time of Coonan cross oath .
So if I do family fonder test, would I get any information about haplogroups? Thanks
Pakalomattom story is a too common folklore concoted by many families that is hardly believable . 5 generations from coonan cross oath doesn't make sense at all so don't put too much weight on the story . We have results of three so called pakalomattom family descendants . Their ydna belong to J2a-L534 ,L1a-M27 and R2a-L295 .Which one is actual pakalomattom descendant in anybody's guess . You can test your ydna and check if you belong to either of above three .

JTM
08-20-2019, 02:44 PM
Pakalomattom story is a too common folklore concoted by many families that is hardly believable . 5 generations from coonan cross oath doesn't make sense at all so don't put too much weight on the story . We have results of three so called pakalomattom family descendants . Their ydna belong to J2a-L534 ,L1a-M27 and R2a-L295 .Which one is actual pakalomattom descendant in anybody's guess . You can test your ydna and check if you belong to either of above three .

Yes, I know most of the family history is vague and ambiguous. I wont like to give much stress on such stories. However I would like to know my paternal line is from India or not. Just omitting the Pakalomattom story.

BMG
08-20-2019, 02:52 PM
Yes, I know most of the family history is vague and ambiguous. I wont like to give much stress on such stories. However I would like to know my paternal line is from India or not. Just omitting the Pakalomattom story.
If you want test only the basic level you can opt for 23andme kit which will test ydna and mtdna along with autosomal dna. For further testing in ydna you can used YSEQ customized options.

vishankar
08-20-2019, 03:02 PM
Have you tested for R1a subclades . Do you know any other Nair tested for R1a subclades ?

i only went for an upgrade- Y67 , i was a bit disappointed !...nothing much to add)...i am waiting to see if if morleys-ydna autosomal extract will be of some use....!
Wilhelm of DNA kit studio says he could help with Morleys to find out Y- hapgps, but he is on vacation and will arrive by august end!

JTM
08-20-2019, 03:19 PM
If you want test only the basic level you can opt for 23andme kit which will test ydna and mtdna along with autosomal dna. For further testing in ydna you can used YSEQ customized options.

Thanks. I don't really understand what u mean by basic level. Could u explain it a bit. Thanks

BMG
08-20-2019, 03:36 PM
Thanks. I don't really understand what u mean by basic level. Could u explain it a bit. Thanks
You will get basic haplogroup assignment for ydna and mt which will be ok for beginners . They will not test for deeper subclades which will give a recent timeline for your particular line of descent .The autosomal test of 23andme is not as good as ftdna or 23andme but it would suffice to give you ancestral breakdown and for using many third party tools available online which will you more information than the test itself . Plus you have a good community here with whom you can discuss your results and get more understanding .

JTM
08-20-2019, 03:40 PM
You will get basic haplogroup assignment for ydna and mt which will be ok for beginners . They will not test for deeper subclades which will give a recent timeline for your particular line of descent .The autosomal test of 23andme is not as good as ftdna or 23andme but it would suffice to give you ancestral breakdown and for using many third party tools available online which will you more information than the test itself . Plus you have a good community here with whom you can discuss your results and get more understanding .

Thanks

parasar
08-25-2019, 06:29 PM
I'm not sure you understand what fit distances mean, they are the euclidean distance from the reference combination to the target. Overfitting occurs when one uses too many similar references creating a "really close fit". I hadn't used more than the necessary number of parameters at all, a really crisp fit is acquired with simply 2-3 parameters.
This overfitting question will go away once we begin modelling Individual Iyers in the same model(they'll have fits of 1-2, which is ideal)

All brahmins should ideally have origins from the UP-Haryana area, the question is regarding the intermediaries involved. Somehow, the GBR sample creates the most crisp models, perhaps by chance. But let's assume the GBR origin theory is pure nonsense(neglecting the evidence that exists for some sects), and let's disregard it completely.

(on individual references runner, where there are three similar piramalai samples)
"sample": "Iyer:Average",
"fit": 1.1835,
"Piramalai": 65,
"Jatt_Pathak": 35,

on freeform using piramalai average(so only 2 references involved, before you say this is overfitted somehow)
"sample": "Test1:Iyer",
"fit": 1.3173,
"Piramalai": 63.33,
"Jatt_Pathak": 36.67,

Now, Jaat/ror like hypothetical Brahmins didn't teleport to all parts of India simultaneously and begin mixing with the substrate there, it was a gradual diffusion from the Gangetic epicenter. My point being, that Proto Iyers were already x*Jaat/Ror + y*Piramalai before having set foot in Tamilakam.

"sample": "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:mahadev_dubey_AGUser",
"fit": 1.6674,
"Jatt_Pathak": 57.5,
"Piramalai": 42.5,



Doing the math based on this rough model(forced to do this due to lack of individual coords, and the strange nature of the UPB average)
Jatt_Pathak ancestry is exclusively from the Brahmin side so 35/57.5 ≈ 60% UP Brahmin(individual) + 40% Piramalai(≈Standard Tamil) = Iyer(Average)

If you want to talk in terms of the Bhumihar sample(member parasar)-
"sample": "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar:parasar_AGUser",
"fit": 2.8351,
"Jatt_Pathak": 59.17,
"Piramalai": 40.83,

(very close)
"sample": "Iyer:Average",
"fit": 1.4964,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 59.17,
"Piramalai": 40.83,



However, Tamil Brahmin origin is not what I am concerned with, I want you to empirically dismantle my claim that Nambudiris are(could be) 70-80% Nair and 20-30% UP/Bihari Brahmin.

"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 2.1375,
"Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 1.8564,
"Kerala_Nair": 71.67,
"Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 28.33,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

In terms of Jatt_Pathak
"sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
"fit": 1.9343,
"Kerala_Nair": 87.5,
"Jatt_Pathak": 12.5,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

"sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
"fit": 2.0064,
"Kerala_Nair": 90.83,
"Jatt_Pathak": 9.17,
"Kerala_Thiyya": 0,

What we know:
- Proto Nambudiris and Proto Nairs walked hand in hand into Kerala(based on what I have read on this forum).
- It is an integral part of Nambudiri/Nair culture to mix with Nair/Nambudiris.
- Proto-Nairs were likely Indo-Aryan(as you say, UP Kshatriya), and therefore their IA ancestry isn't(by far) simply the result of Sambandam.

Sastrangakars?
https://books.google.com/books?id=IYF-lsBwZnYC&pg=PT105
"The banks of the Nerbudda, the Krishna, and the Kāveri are believed to have given Brāhmans to Malabar. I have come across Nambūtiris who have referred to traditions in their families regarding villages on the east coast whence their ancestors originally came, and the sub-divisions of the Smarta caste, Vadama, Brihatcharanam, Ashtasahasram, Sankēti, etc., to which they belonged. Even to this day, an east coast Brāhman of the Vadadesattu Vadama caste has to pour water into the hands of a Nambūtiri Sanyāsi as part of the latter's breakfast ritual. Broach in Kathiwar, one of the greatest emporiums of trade in the middle ages, is also mentioned as one of the ancient recruiting districts of the Nambūtiri Brāhmans. Broach was the ancient Bhrigucachchha,where Parasu Rāma made his avabhritasnāna (final bathing) after his great triumph over the kshatriyas, and where to this day a set of people called Bhargava Brāhmans live. Their comparatively low social status is ascribed to the original sin of their Brāhman progenitor or founder having taken to the profession of arms. The date of the first settlement of the Nambūtiris is not known. Orthodox tradition would place it in the Trētāyuga, or the second great Hindu cycle. The reference to the grāmams of Chovvur and Panniyūr contained in the Manigrāmam Syrian Christian grant of the eighth century, and its absence in the Jewish, have suggested to antiquarians some time between the seventh and eighth centuries as the probable period. The writings of Ptolemy and the Periplus furnish evidence of Brāhman settlements on the Malabar coast as early as the first century, and it is probable that immigrant Brāhman families began to pour in with the ascendancy of the Western Chalukya kings in the fourth and fifth centuries, and became gradually welded with the pre-existing Nambūtiris. All these Nambūtiris were grouped under two great sections: — (a) the Vaishnavites or Panniyur Grāmakkar, who came with the patronage of the Vaishnavites of the Chalukya dynasty with the boar as their royal emblem; {b) the Saivites or Chovvūr Grāmakkar, who readily accepted the Saivite teachings from the Chēra, Chōla, and Pāndya kings who followed the Chalukyans. They included in all sixty-four grāmams, which, in many cases, were only families. Of these, not more than ten belong to modern Travancore. These grāmams constituted a regular autocracy, with four talis or administrative bodies having their head-quarters at Cranganore. It appears that a Rāja or Perumāl, as he was called, from the adjoining Chēra kingdom, including the present districts of Salem and Coimbatore, was, as an improved arrangement, invited to rule for a duodecennial period, and was afterwards confirmed, whether by the lapse of time or by a formal act of the Brāhman owners it is not known. The Chēra Viceroys, by virtue of their isolation from their own fatherland, had then to arrange for marital alliances being made, as best they could, with the highest indigenous caste, the Nambūtiris, the males consorting with Sūdra women. The matriarchal form of inheritance was thus a necessary consequence. Certain tracts of Kērala, however, continued under direct Brāhman sovereignty, of which the Ettappalli chief is almost the only surviving representative."
Writing in the eighteenth century, Hamilton observes *[3]that "the Nambouries are the first in both capacities of Church and State, and some of them are Popes, being Sovereign Princes in both."

See also: Adisathrus, Ptolemy, Eastern Ghats.

BMG
08-25-2019, 06:30 PM
The Kerala Christian Y40 sample have a konkani Christian also in his subgroup Y61616 having a tmrca of 2900 ybp but Tamil Y40 is in the paragroup .

client
08-26-2019, 03:32 AM
Sastrangakars?
https://books.google.com/books?id=IYF-lsBwZnYC&pg=PT105
"The banks of the Nerbudda, the Krishna, and the Kāveri are believed to have given Brāhmans to Malabar. I have come across Nambūtiris who have referred to traditions in their families regarding villages on the east coast whence their ancestors originally came, and the sub-divisions of the Smarta caste, Vadama, Brihatcharanam, Ashtasahasram, Sankēti, etc., to which they belonged. Even to this day, an east coast Brāhman of the Vadadesattu Vadama caste has to pour water into the hands of a Nambūtiri Sanyāsi as part of the latter's breakfast ritual. Broach in Kathiwar, one of the greatest emporiums of trade in the middle ages, is also mentioned as one of the ancient recruiting districts of the Nambūtiri Brāhmans. Broach was the ancient

Very interesting, this actually leaves me with more questions than answers. Is it saying that the Nambudiris derive from East Coast("Tamil") Brahmins, or from Brahmin arrivals from Bharuch(Broach)?
What I can make of that is that the original set of Nambudiri Brahmins arrived from Bharuch/Kathiawar and had links with their counterparts on the Eastern coast(of whom the sects mentioned are ones that overwhelmed the preexisting Brahmins of Chola country). I think the theory of a much later arrival(700AD) of Nambudiris(or misc. Kerala Brahmins?) is debatable as we have evidence for earlier settlements of Nambudiris as per Sangam literature. Perhaps they are a result of multiple arrivals to the region as applicable to brahmins of most regions, for that matter.


An origin from that region explains the West/NW shifted genetic profile of Nambudiris, in my opinion.

parasar
08-26-2019, 03:47 AM
Very interesting, this actually leaves me with more questions than answers. Is it saying that the Nambudiris derive from East Coast("Tamil") Brahmins, or from Brahmin arrivals from Bharuch(Broach)?
...

Both.
"The banks of the Nerbudda, ("Broach in Kathiwar, one of the greatest emporiums of trade in the middle ages, is also mentioned as one of the ancient recruiting districts of the Nambūtiri Brāhmans")
[and]
the Krishna, and the Kāveri are believed to have given Brāhmans to Malabar"

vishankar
08-27-2019, 05:39 PM
thanks to Poi.. A BIG THANKS- the bunt coordinates and sample is put up on global 25 nmonte-here is a nmonte run of bunt in comparison with nairs using AASI-south, Ganj Dareh and sintashta....please feel free to comment!
32758

vishankar
09-02-2019, 09:12 AM
hi...i posted my latest ( and last i guess, for some time to come!!!) Thiyya result....it is there on the harappa thread, but in thought it would be prudent to share here too..https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-Post-HarappaWorld-results/page88&highlight=kerala

vishankar
09-09-2019, 05:09 PM
i got a couple of mt dna results from Wilhelm of admixture studio-

1) Thiyya male from kozhikode-M13a'b.

2) Bunt male from Mangalore- M80'd.

vishankar
09-09-2019, 05:10 PM
It is time for Onam festivities in kerala)))0:)....A very happy Onam to all Mallus and Non - mALLUS HERE!!!

JTM
09-17-2019, 04:27 PM
Hi there,
Today I got my DNA test result from 23&me.
My Paternal Haplogroup is RY-6
My MaternalHaplogroup is M35a1
Autosomal result is 99.4% South Asian - (regions matching in India are Kerala, Andra Pradesh, Goa, Punjab, UttarPradesh) 0.1 % African Hunter gatherer, 0.1% Sub Saharan African 0.4% unassigned (at 90% confidence level)

vishankar
09-17-2019, 07:24 PM
Hi there,
Today I got my DNA test result from 23&me.
My Paternal Haplogroup is RY-6
My MaternalHaplogroup is M35a1
Autosomal result is 99.4% South Asian - (regions matching in India are Kerala, Andra Pradesh, Goa, Punjab, UttarPradesh) 0.1 % African Hunter gatherer, 0.1% Sub Saharan African 0.4% unassigned (at 90% confidence level)


Hi, why dont you do a harappa oracle score - after going to GEDMATCH ( and uploading your raw data) and share it with the rest of us, dear??

JTM
09-17-2019, 07:54 PM
Population
S-Indian 47.50 Pct
Baloch 36.70 Pct
Caucasian 2.29 Pct
NE-Euro 4.64 Pct
SE-Asian 2.05 Pct
Siberian 0.64 Pct
NE-Asian -
Papuan 1.60 Pct
American -
Beringian 1.19 Pct
Mediterranean 0.82 Pct
SW-Asian 1.92 Pct
San -
E-African 0.65 Pct
Pygmy -
W-African

This is the GEDMATCH Oracle score

vishankar
09-17-2019, 08:33 PM
Population
S-Indian 47.50 Pct
Baloch 36.70 Pct
Caucasian 2.29 Pct
NE-Euro 4.64 Pct
SE-Asian 2.05 Pct
Siberian 0.64 Pct
NE-Asian -
Papuan 1.60 Pct
American -
Beringian 1.19 Pct
Mediterranean 0.82 Pct
SW-Asian 1.92 Pct
San -
E-African 0.65 Pct
Pygmy -
W-African

This is the GEDMATCH Oracle score

similar to many nairs .....what are ur close matches on the harappa oracle?

vishankar
09-17-2019, 08:37 PM
friends i am posting a nair pillai... a settler in Kannur from Kottayam...the result suggests he is an outlier-
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 54.27
2 Baloch 35.05
3 Caucasian 4.77
4 SE-Asian 2.35
5 Papuan 1.1
6 SW-Asian 0.94
7 NE-Euro 0.68
8 American 0.38
9 W-African 0.31
10 Pygmy 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 karnataka (harappa) 2.02
2 velama (metspalu) 3.21
3 ap-reddy (harappa) 3.34
4 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 3.41
5 velama (reich) 3.43
6 tamil (harappa) 4.01
7 tharu (metspalu) 4.39
8 sinhalese (harappa) 4.84
9 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 4.88
10 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.04
11 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 5.35
12 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.4
13 tamil-vellalar (harappa) 5.47
14 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.86
15 dharkar (metspalu) 6.06
16 kerala-christian (harappa) 6.2
17 kanjar (metspalu) 6.57
18 tamil-nadar (harappa) 6.67
19 lodi (reich) 6.8
20 rajasthani (harappa) 7.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.8% velama (reich) + 3.2% samoan (xing) @ 1.56
2 96.8% velama (reich) + 3.2% tongan (xing) @ 1.65
3 96.5% velama (reich) + 3.5% singapore-malay (sgvp) @ 1.67
4 97% velama (reich) + 3% iban (xing) @ 1.67
5 96.5% velama (reich) + 3.5% cambodian (hgdp) @ 1.72
6 96.1% velama (reich) + 3.9% thai (xing) @ 1.74
7 82.7% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 17.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.8
8 83.8% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 16.2% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.8
9 96.4% velama (reich) + 3.6% khmer-cambodian (xing) @ 1.82
10 98.9% karnataka (harappa) + 1.1% georgian (behar) @ 1.84
11 98.9% karnataka (harappa) + 1.1% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.84
12 96.9% velama (reich) + 3.1% dai (hgdp) @ 1.84
13 98.2% karnataka (harappa) + 1.8% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.85
14 96.4% velama (metspalu) + 3.6% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.85
15 96.4% velama (metspalu) + 3.6% adygei (hgdp) @ 1.85
16 94.4% velama (metspalu) + 5.6% romanian-b (behar) @ 1.85
17 98.1% karnataka (harappa) + 1.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.85
18 96% velama (metspalu) + 4% stalskoe (xing) @ 1.85
19 82.3% velama (metspalu) + 17.7% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.85
20 97.8% karnataka (harappa) + 2.2% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.86

vishankar
09-17-2019, 08:38 PM
i had cross checked with him and his son whether he is a Tamil Vellala Pillai prior to acquiring his cheek swab- they replied in the negative.
he appears to be a pure proto dravidian-IVC variety!

JTM
09-17-2019, 08:51 PM
similar to many nairs .....what are ur close matches on the harappa oracle?

Thanks,however my family oral tradition says a Brahmin converted ;Does it match with that?

Also what u mean by close matches in harappa oracle? thanks

vishankar
09-17-2019, 08:51 PM
a thiyya male from ezhilode,payyanur district-seems similar to the above nair,

admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.43
2 Baloch 32.9
3 Caucasian 6.62
4 SW-Asian 2.83
5 Papuan 2.07
6 NE-Asian 1.57
7 American 0.96
8 SE-Asian 0.74
9 Siberian 0.63
10 Beringian 0.58
11 NE-Euro 0.48
12 E-African 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 2.94
2 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.65
3 tamil (harappa) 3.78
4 kerala-muslim (harappa) 4.33
5 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.96
6 rajasthani (harappa) 5.31
7 karnataka (harappa) 5.39
8 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.58
9 ap-reddy (harappa) 5.75
10 up (harappa) 5.82
11 tharu (metspalu) 6.54
12 bihari (harappa) 6.62
13 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.86
14 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.87
15 up-muslim (metspalu) 6.98
16 kerala-nair (harappa) 7.11
17 maharashtrian (harappa) 7.18
18 tn-brahmin (xing) 7.2
19 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 7.27
20 velama (reich) 7.31

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.7% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 33.3% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.76
2 94.9% kerala-christian (harappa) + 5.1% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.82
3 94.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 5.2% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.83
4 90.7% kerala-christian (harappa) + 9.3% kurumba (reich) @ 1.86
5 86.4% kerala-christian (harappa) + 13.6% chenchu (metspalu) @ 1.86
6 89% kerala-christian (harappa) + 11% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.88
7 94.9% kerala-christian (harappa) + 5.1% irula (xing) @ 1.9
8 90.5% kerala-christian (harappa) + 9.5% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.91
9 90.7% kerala-christian (harappa) + 9.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.93
10 88.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 11.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.95
11 91.4% kerala-christian (harappa) + 8.6% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.95
12 90.1% kerala-christian (harappa) + 9.9% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.95
13 91.6% kerala-christian (harappa) + 8.4% mala (reich) @ 1.97
14 87.8% kerala-christian (harappa) + 12.2% kamsali (reich) @ 1.98
15 91.6% kerala-christian (harappa) + 8.4% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.98
16 90.4% kerala-christian (harappa) + 9.6% madiga (reich) @ 2
17 80.6% kerala-christian (harappa) + 19.4% tamil-nadar (harappa) @ 2.01
18 92.6% karnataka (harappa) + 7.4% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) @ 2.02
19 91.8% karnataka (harappa) + 8.2% iraqi-arab (harappa) @ 2.03
20 68.1% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 31.9% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.03

vishankar
09-18-2019, 03:03 AM
Thanks,however my family oral tradition says a Brahmin converted ;Does it match with that?

Also what u mean by close matches in harappa oracle? thanks

hi ..it could well be that a brahmin did convert,going by your harappa score....especially the NE euro and lower SW asian values,of course even here we can only speculate, but from my preliminary obervation , this score suggests a brahmin/upper caste nair/ambalavasi base...
the oracle is derived from the rectangular box immediately after your score is calculated on GEDMATCH.i will send an example.

JTM
09-18-2019, 03:49 AM
hi ..it could well be that a brahmin did convert,going by your harappa score....especially the NE euro and lower SW asian values,of course even here we can only speculate, but from my preliminary obervation , this score suggests a brahmin/upper caste nair/ambalavasi base...
the oracle is derived from the rectangular box immediately after your score is calculated on GEDMATCH.i will send an example.

Thanks. Please do send.

JTM
09-18-2019, 03:05 PM
This is my population sharing in Harappa Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.5
2 Baloch 36.7
3 NE-Euro 4.64
4 Caucasian 2.29
5 SE-Asian 2.05
6 SW-Asian 1.92
7 Papuan 1.6
8 Beringian 1.19
9 Mediterranean 0.82
10 E-African 0.65
11 Siberian 0.64

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.03
2 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.05
3 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 3.32
4 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.85
5 tn-brahmin (xing) 3.9
6 meghawal (reich) 3.92
7 kerala-nair (harappa) 3.95
8 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.97
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.04
10 gujarati (harappa) 4.06
11 rajasthani (harappa) 4.11
12 up (harappa) 4.41
13 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.66
14 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.25
15 kerala-christian (harappa) 5.38
16 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.77
17 bihari (harappa) 5.8
18 dharkar (metspalu) 6.17
19 vaish (reich) 6.5
20 srivastava (reich) 6.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.8% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2.2% tongan (xing) @ 2.33
2 97.9% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2.1% samoan (xing) @ 2.37
3 87.4% dharkar (metspalu) + 12.6% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.46
4 86.6% dharkar (metspalu) + 13.4% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.47
5 87.6% dharkar (metspalu) + 12.4% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.49
6 98.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.6% melanesian (hgdp) @ 2.51
7 84.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 15.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.53
8 98.3% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.7% iban (xing) @ 2.57
9 83.2% kanjar (metspalu) + 16.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.58
10 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% singapore-malay (sgvp) @ 2.59
11 98.3% ap-brahmin (xing) + 1.7% tongan (xing) @ 2.6
12 84.3% kanjar (metspalu) + 15.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.6
13 98.3% ap-brahmin (xing) + 1.7% samoan (xing) @ 2.62
14 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% cambodian (hgdp) @ 2.63
15 98.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.6% aus (reich) @ 2.64
16 50.8% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 49.2% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.66
17 98.8% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.2% papuan (hgdp) @ 2.66
18 98% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2% thai (xing) @ 2.66
19 56.6% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 43.4% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 2.68
20 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% khmer-cambodian (xing) @ 2.68


By the way I belong to Jacobite Syrian Christian sect from Muvattupuzha, Ernakulam Dt.

JTM
09-18-2019, 04:20 PM
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.50
2 Baloch 36.70
3 NE-Euro 4.64
4 Caucasian 2.29
5 SE-Asian 2.05
6 SW-Asian 1.92
7 Papuan 1.60
8 Beringian 1.19


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 ap-brahmin_xing @ 3.112822
2 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.156978
3 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 3.518255
4 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 4.119912
5 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.167521
6 tn-brahmin_xing @ 4.199157
7 meghawal_reich @ 4.249287
8 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.298376
9 gujarati_harappa @ 4.305812
10 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 4.318696
11 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.422825
12 up_harappa @ 4.765823
13 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.970241
14 goan_harappa @ 5.181097
15 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 5.615931
16 kerala-christian_harappa @ 5.944977
17 oriya_harappa @ 6.051915
18 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.236619
19 bihari_harappa @ 6.237714
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 6.630754

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% dharkar_metspalu +50% kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 2.520785


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-brahmin_harappa +25% oriya_harappa +25% sinhalese_harappa @ 2.166473


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bengali_metspalu + bengali-brahmin_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 1.991285
2 bengali_metspalu + gujarati-patel_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + vaish_reich @ 2.023319
3 bengali_metspalu + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kerala-brahmin_harappa + vaish_reich @ 2.032120
4 bengali_metspalu + bengali-brahmin_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 2.052379
5 kerala-brahmin_harappa + meena_metspalu + oriya_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.064399
6 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kerala-brahmin_harappa + south-african-indian_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.079672
7 bengali_metspalu + bengali-brahmin_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 2.082104
8 bengali_metspalu + gujarati-a_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + vaish_reich @ 2.087778
9 gujarati-patel_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + south-african-indian_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.096929
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + kerala-brahmin_harappa + south-african-indian_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 2.104146
11 bengali_metspalu + dharkar_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 2.116686
12 karnataka_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_reich + oriya_harappa @ 2.121408
13 bengali_metspalu + kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-nair_harappa + oriya_harappa @ 2.127751
14 gujarati-a_hapmap + kerala_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa @ 2.127756
15 kerala-brahmin_harappa + meghawal_reich + oriya_harappa + sinhalese_harappa @ 2.143000
16 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kerala_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa @ 2.146307
17 gujarati-patel_harappa + kerala_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa @ 2.155842
18 ap-reddy_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa + up_harappa @ 2.164145
19 kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa + sinhalese_harappa @ 2.166473
20 iyengar-brahmin_harappa + karnataka_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + oriya_harappa @ 2.180377

JTM
09-18-2019, 04:29 PM
Hi there,

What you think about these results? Thanks

BMG
09-18-2019, 04:43 PM
This is my population sharing in Harappa Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.5
2 Baloch 36.7
3 NE-Euro 4.64
4 Caucasian 2.29
5 SE-Asian 2.05
6 SW-Asian 1.92
7 Papuan 1.6
8 Beringian 1.19
9 Mediterranean 0.82
10 E-African 0.65
11 Siberian 0.64

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.03
2 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.05
3 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 3.32
4 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.85
5 tn-brahmin (xing) 3.9
6 meghawal (reich) 3.92
7 kerala-nair (harappa) 3.95
8 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.97
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.04
10 gujarati (harappa) 4.06
11 rajasthani (harappa) 4.11
12 up (harappa) 4.41
13 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.66
14 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.25
15 kerala-christian (harappa) 5.38
16 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.77
17 bihari (harappa) 5.8
18 dharkar (metspalu) 6.17
19 vaish (reich) 6.5
20 srivastava (reich) 6.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.8% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2.2% tongan (xing) @ 2.33
2 97.9% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2.1% samoan (xing) @ 2.37
3 87.4% dharkar (metspalu) + 12.6% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.46
4 86.6% dharkar (metspalu) + 13.4% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.47
5 87.6% dharkar (metspalu) + 12.4% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.49
6 98.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.6% melanesian (hgdp) @ 2.51
7 84.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 15.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.53
8 98.3% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.7% iban (xing) @ 2.57
9 83.2% kanjar (metspalu) + 16.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.58
10 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% singapore-malay (sgvp) @ 2.59
11 98.3% ap-brahmin (xing) + 1.7% tongan (xing) @ 2.6
12 84.3% kanjar (metspalu) + 15.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.6
13 98.3% ap-brahmin (xing) + 1.7% samoan (xing) @ 2.62
14 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% cambodian (hgdp) @ 2.63
15 98.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.6% aus (reich) @ 2.64
16 50.8% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 49.2% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.66
17 98.8% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.2% papuan (hgdp) @ 2.66
18 98% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 2% thai (xing) @ 2.66
19 56.6% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 43.4% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 2.68
20 98.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 1.9% khmer-cambodian (xing) @ 2.68

You are one of those Brahmin shifted Syrian Christian .So either you might have recent Brahmin ancestors or they have preserved such an ancestry to an extent . As I told my paternal grandparents also have similar results but they do not have any recent non Syrian Christian ancestry

vishankar
09-18-2019, 05:34 PM
Hi there,

What you think about these results? Thanks

Hi...so you are a syrian christian from muvatapuzha??...my mom had many syrian christian friends there...and i do remember the talk going around in our household that most of these nasranis are Brahmin converts!

JTM
09-18-2019, 07:47 PM
You are one of those Brahmin shifted Syrian Christian .So either you might have recent Brahmin ancestors or they have preserved such an ancestry to an extent . As I told my paternal grandparents also have similar results but they do not have any recent non Syrian Christian ancestry

For at least 6-7 generations we were syrian christians and we have no idea of any body converted. My paternal family is Alappattu Pakalomattom originally from Kuravilangad (Kottayam Dt) shifted to Muvattupuzha during Coonan Cross Oath and joined Kadamattom Church (Kadamattathu Kathanar) Ernakulam.

My maternal family is from Kothamangalam (Ernakulam Dt). Their oral tradition is a Namboothiri called Pattanathu(Mahadevar Pattanam) Namboodiri converted to Christianity long ago.

After all these are just oral folklores . However now I think there may be some truth somewhere...

JTM
09-18-2019, 07:55 PM
Hi...so you are a syrian christian from muvatapuzha??...my mom had many syrian christian friends there...and i do remember the talk going around in our household that most of these nasranis are Brahmin converts!

I do agree that some percentage of Nasranis are Brahmin converted , some are Nair converted and even some others from different castes. WE cannot generalize a community with a few results.
However we could definitely say there are Brahmin converts among syrian christians.

tipirneni
09-18-2019, 10:57 PM
i had cross checked with him and his son whether he is a Tamil Vellala Pillai prior to acquiring his cheek swab- they replied in the negative.
he appears to be a pure proto dravidian-IVC variety!

Interesting mix of Caucausian, Europe & Papuan might be close to Shahr-i-Sokhte2 I11459 sample.

J Man
09-19-2019, 12:03 AM
Does anyone here know of any Baloch Y-DNA results that are not part of any academic study? Individuals that tested at FTDNA or 23andne?

Kulin
09-19-2019, 02:46 AM
Does anyone here know of any Baloch Y-DNA results that are not part of any academic study? Individuals that tested at FTDNA or 23andne?

You should ask Khanabadoshi.

JTM
09-19-2019, 03:27 AM
Hi there,
Could you please shed some light onto R Y6 YDNA haplogroup & M35a1 MtDNA haplogroup? Thanks

BMG
09-19-2019, 04:02 PM
Hi there,
Could you please shed some light onto R Y6 YDNA haplogroup & M35a1 MtDNA haplogroup? Thanks
Y6 is branch of L657 subclades which is the most common subgroup of R1a found in India. R1a ultimately reached South Asia through Indo European migrations from steppes . Among Syrian Christians along with L657 other R1a subclades of Z2123 and Y40 are also found .These three subclades combined makes 99% of R1a found in South Asia .
Y9 and Y6 are major subdivisions within L657 . Both are found extensively in South Asia .I belong to Y7 which is within the Y9 subgroup .

BMG
09-19-2019, 04:16 PM
M35 is deep rooted South Asian mtdna haplogroup. M35a1 isespecially frequent among malayalis and tamils among the publicly tested .
Mt tree of M35A1 from yfull

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M35/

BMG
09-19-2019, 04:20 PM
For at least 6-7 generations we were syrian christians and we have no idea of any body converted. My paternal family is Alappattu Pakalomattom originally from Kuravilangad (Kottayam Dt) shifted to Muvattupuzha during Coonan Cross Oath and joined Kadamattom Church (Kadamattathu Kathanar) Ernakulam.

My maternal family is from Kothamangalam (Ernakulam Dt). Their oral tradition is a Namboothiri called Pattanathu(Mahadevar Pattanam) Namboodiri converted to Christianity long ago.

After all these are just oral folklores . However now I think there may be some truth somewhere...
Are you related to alappatt family from thrissur . Their family ydna is J-Z628 though .

JTM
09-19-2019, 04:50 PM
Are you related to alappatt family from thrissur . Their family ydna is J-Z628 though .

No. My family history says one of the members of pakalomattom family of Kuravilangad shifted to Muvattupuzha during the days of Coonan cross oath. By the way Pakalomattom family claims a Brahmin heritage.
Before you said many members of Pakalomattom family has different y lineage. I am confused!
Again cross checked and found that Thrissur Alapattu is not related to Pakalomattom family

BMG
09-19-2019, 06:35 PM
Before you said many members of Pakalomattom family has different y lineage. I am confused!

I said different families claiming pakalomattom heritage have different ydna. So they don't actually descent from the same family .

JTM
09-19-2019, 06:54 PM
I said different families claiming pakalomattom heritage have different ydna. So they don't actually descent from the same family .

The possible reason for this is
There was/ is a practice called DATHU NILKKAL in Northern Travancore. When the influential wealthy family has only girl children, they adopt males from other families still continuing the same family name. This was a common practice until now.

In such cases ,even though they carry the Pakalomatton family name, they won't bear the original Pakalomattom Y DNA.

JTM
09-20-2019, 04:26 AM
Y6 is branch of L657 subclades which is the most common subgroup of R1a found in India. R1a ultimately reached South Asia through Indo European migrations from steppes . Among Syrian Christians along with L657 other R1a subclades of Z2123 and Y40 are also found .These three subclades combined makes 99% of R1a found in South Asia .
Y9 and Y6 are major subdivisions within L657 . Both are found extensively in South Asia .I belong to Y7 which is within the Y9 subgroup .

Your paternal line stems from a branch of R-M420 called R-M512. Today, the men who share your haplogroup are most common in Eastern Europe, Russia and Ukraine. The lineage is also quite common in Poland, but decreases in frequency toward the Mediterranean countries. Farther to the west, about one-third of Norwegian men and a quarter of men from the far northern British Isles carry R-M512. Their ancestors arrived with various groups over the past 2,000 years, including with the Anglo-Saxons from central Europe in the 5th century and the Vikings who came from Scandinavia beginning about 800 CE.

Additionally, the haplogroup is still relatively common in the Middle East, as well as in Central and South Asia where it reaches levels of up to 60% among the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks.

On the internet, R-M512 is more commonly known as R1a1a.

Thus R Y6 is a a branch of R1a1a

Is this information correct?

JTM
09-20-2019, 08:06 PM
Hi there,

DNA.LAND gives these results

West Eurasian 100%


South Asian 78%------- Dravidian 76%
Gujarati 1.9%

Central Asian 18%------ Indus Valley 13%
Indo-Iranian 4.6%

Finnish 2.5%
Northwest European 1.6%

bmoney
09-21-2019, 06:09 AM
Good work on the samples guys - Vishankar thanks for all the great work.
Btw those Nambiar and Nambudiri kits couldn’t be y-dna processed by Morley. I don’t think
Ftdna (? Can’t recall) Works with it

But safe bet to say they are l657

bmoney
09-21-2019, 06:14 AM
i had cross checked with him and his son whether he is a Tamil Vellala Pillai prior to acquiring his cheek swab- they replied in the negative.
he appears to be a pure proto dravidian-IVC variety!

Yeah Dravidian farmer south migration ‘Vel’ type. The ones who were responsible for a functioning urban society in the south postdating IVC collapse and collecting AASI from local HGs on the way

Funny how Narasimhans papers literally supported everything I’ve ever intuited in this forum

I wonder how the gangetic hindu nationalists are taking it

Anyway news to see that the ane influenced turanian Iran n (probably Dravidian speaking) is distinct to actual Western Iranian ancestry distinct due to Anatolian ancestry but I still suspect that not all ANF came via steppe and came in interim migrations involving L/J/G subclades via Balochistan and from the Iranian plateau probably also the Arabian Sea seen in some Nasrani samples

Rustyshakelford
09-21-2019, 07:41 AM
Yeah Dravidian farmer south migration ‘Vel’ type. The ones who were responsible for a functioning urban society in the south postdating IVC collapse and collecting AASI from local HGs on the way

Funny how Narasimhans papers literally supported everything I’ve ever intuited in this forum

I wonder how the gangetic hindu nationalists are taking it

Anyway news to see that the ane influenced turanian Iran n (probably Dravidian speaking) is distinct to actual Western Iranian ancestry distinct due to Anatolian ancestry but I still suspect that not all ANF came via steppe and came in interim migrations involving L/J/G subclades via Balochistan and from the Iranian plateau probably also the Arabian Sea seen in some Nasrani samples

Regarding all ANF being via steppe: iirc all the Dravidian castes (with low/nil steppe) including the velamas/kammas and the Kerala samples scored higher than expected ANF on G25. Is it possible that this is some kind of pseudo-ANF being picked up due to more ancient affinities with a related component? Similar to how the paniya and Irula were scoring steppe due to ancient ANE affinity. Not sure if this is a possible given the phylogeny of these components and how diverged they are but I’m curious to hear your take on it.

vishankar
09-21-2019, 03:01 PM
Yeah Dravidian farmer south migration ‘Vel’ type. The ones who were responsible for a functioning urban society in the south postdating IVC collapse and collecting AASI from local HGs on the way

Funny how Narasimhans papers literally supported everything I’ve ever intuited in this forum

I wonder how the gangetic hindu nationalists are taking it

Anyway news to see that the ane influenced turanian Iran n (probably Dravidian speaking) is distinct to actual Western Iranian ancestry distinct due to Anatolian ancestry but I still suspect that not all ANF came via steppe and came in interim migrations involving L/J/G subclades via Balochistan and from the Iranian plateau probably also the Arabian Sea seen in some Nasrani samples

Hi...great to hear from you!!!.. been quite on this forum for sometime now)))...although i am a BJP sympathiser i am not on the same page as the Hindutva historians!....we are a diverse people..more salad than stew)

vishankar
09-21-2019, 03:02 PM
Good work on the samples guys - Vishankar thanks for all the great work.
Btw those Nambiar and Nambudiri kits couldn’t be y-dna processed by Morley. I don’t think
Ftdna (? Can’t recall) Works with it

But safe bet to say they are l657

Ft DNA gys are clever....wilhelm of admixture studio informed me that y- dna cant be inferred from their family finder raw DNA data, the hard way is to buy the y- dna test((

tipirneni
09-21-2019, 03:27 PM
Regarding all ANF being via steppe: iirc all the Dravidian castes (with low/nil steppe) including the velamas/kammas and the Kerala samples scored higher than expected ANF on G25. Is it possible that this is some kind of pseudo-ANF being picked up due to more ancient affinities with a related component? Similar to how the paniya and Irula were scoring steppe due to ancient ANE affinity. Not sure if this is a possible given the phylogeny of these components and how diverged they are but Im curious to hear your take on it.

It is not Pseudo ANF. Some of the kits like Barcin8 & Anatolia EF have really elevated match with Kamma kits. Some Telugu/Tamil Brahmins also scored bigger segments on these kits. The calculators don't include all the kits, but base on only few major kits, so it doesn't show up in the calculators

vishankar
09-22-2019, 07:57 PM
Interesting mix of Caucausian, Europe & Papuan might be close to Shahr-i-Sokhte2 I11459 sample.

i could not resist sharing Davidski's runs of 3 kits-

kOTTAYAM nair pillai-

Distance: 2.6212% / 0.02621165
Aggregated
86.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
5.8 Jarawa
4.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.4 WHG
0.2 Levant_PPNB.

Kannur thiyya- i mentioned earlier to be an outlier-

80.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
8.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 Jarawa
0.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.2 WHG


thalassery rural nair-

81.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
6.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
5.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.2 Levant_PPNB
2.0 WHG
1.0 Jarawa
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Tipirneni was spot on the first sample- the kottayam nair pillai has a the most SISB3 admixture...

vishankar
09-26-2019, 02:14 AM
here is a mallapuram muslim mappila's harappa score...interesting!
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.07
2 Baloch 32.87
3 NE-Euro 4.86
4 Caucasian 3.68
5 SE-Asian 2.3
6 E-African 2.22
7 SW-Asian 1.41
8 Siberian 0.98
9 Mediterranean 0.83
10 Papuan 0.47
11 Beringian 0.27
12 NE-Asian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 up (harappa) 3.11
2 bihari (harappa) 3.26
3 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.99
4 srivastava (reich) 4.19
5 ap-brahmin (xing) 4.35
6 caribbean-indian (harappa) 4.42
7 rajasthani (harappa) 4.63
8 up-muslim (metspalu) 4.72
9 dharkar (metspalu) 4.74
10 tharu (metspalu) 4.75
11 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 4.95
12 tamil (harappa) 5.1
13 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.1
14 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 5.22
15 kerala-christian (harappa) 5.26
16 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.36
17 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 5.43
18 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.68
19 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.71
20 kanjar (metspalu) 5.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.4% meghawal (reich) + 26.6% satnami (reich) @ 2.23
2 85.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 14.9% sahariya (reich) @ 2.24
3 77.6% meghawal (reich) + 22.4% gond (metspalu) @ 2.35
4 89.6% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 10.4% ho (chaubey) @ 2.36
5 88.6% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 11.4% santhal (reich) @ 2.36
6 89.7% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 10.3% savara (chaubey) @ 2.36
7 89.7% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 10.3% kharia (reich) @ 2.36
8 82.4% meghawal (reich) + 17.6% nihali (metspalu) @ 2.37
9 88.2% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 11.8% asur (chaubey) @ 2.38
10 83.9% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 16.1% sahariya (reich) @ 2.43
11 89.8% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 10.2% kharia (chaubey) @ 2.44
12 72.6% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 27.4% tharu (reich) @ 2.47
13 95% tharu (metspalu) + 5% tygray (pagani) @ 2.49
14 77.5% sinhalese (harappa) + 22.5% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 2.49
15 95.1% tharu (metspalu) + 4.9% amhara (pagani) @ 2.5
16 84.8% meghawal (reich) + 15.2% asur (chaubey) @ 2.5
17 66.4% meghawal (reich) + 33.6% tharu (reich) @ 2.51
18 82.5% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 17.5% gond (metspalu) @ 2.52
19 95.1% tharu (metspalu) + 4.9% afar (pagani) @ 2.52
20 79.1% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) + 20.9% satnami (reich) @ 2.53

BMG
09-29-2019, 02:45 AM
One of the J-L243 Syrian Christian turned out to be J-FGC30243+ L590-
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC30343/

BMG
09-29-2019, 04:48 PM
An interesting thing about the M33a2 ,the knanaya subclade is that it is indeed found in middle East .
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M33a2/
All the unmarked samples are from india though . Their specific subclade M33a2a is found in a iraqi marsh arab sample .

Rustyshakelford
09-30-2019, 12:36 AM
One of the J-L243 Syrian Christian turned out to be J-FGC30243+ L590-
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC30343/

Are the R1b samples on the Syrian Christian project really of Syrian Christians or those who joined mistakenly? The names are ambiguous. I would imagine R1b to be extremely rare in south India.

aaronbee2010
09-30-2019, 01:19 AM
Are the R1b samples on the Syrian Christian project really of Syrian Christians or those who joined mistakenly? The names are ambiguous. I would imagine R1b to be extremely rare in south India.

I've analysed their (the Indian sample and unknown sample) Y-STR's with NEVGEN. The Indian appears to come under R1b-Z2103, which most South Asian R1b's appear to come under (including my uncle). The other one appears to come under R1b-L51, which is mainly seen in Western Europe, so this sample appears to not be Indian. Both samples are only Y37, so I can't really guess deeper subclades than what I've already suggested.

BMG
09-30-2019, 01:45 AM
Are the R1b samples on the Syrian Christian project really of Syrian Christians or those who joined mistakenly? The names are ambiguous. I would imagine R1b to be extremely rare in south India.

There are at least 2 confirmed R1b samples among Syrian Christians .The Philip kit is a family finder match for me and is fully Syrian Christian and have mtdna U1 . Yet another R1b match is there at 23andme who is also at least paternally Syrian Christian as he has confirmed .They both might be Z2103 as aaronbee suggested

Rustyshakelford
09-30-2019, 02:05 AM
There are at least 2 confirmed R1b samples among Syrian Christians .The Philip kit is a family finder match for me and is fully Syrian Christian and have mtdna U1 . Yet another R1b match is there at 23andme who is also at least paternally Syrian Christian as he has confirmed .They both might be Z2103 as aaronbee suggested

Is it know to exist among any other group in Kerala?

vishankar
09-30-2019, 06:54 PM
R1b is so western european....!!! and to my knowledge no malayalis i know have it!!..may be there among anglo indians though!

vishankar
09-30-2019, 06:56 PM
i did a conversion of my kit to 23 and me format, courtesy dna admixture studio and here is the harappa result-
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 49.7
2 Baloch 33.56
3 Caucasian 7.68
4 NE-Euro 4
5 NE-Asian 1.44
6 SW-Asian 1.18
7 Papuan 1.02
8 Beringian 0.49
9 Mediterranean 0.34
10 Siberian 0.32
11 San 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.22
2 rajasthani (harappa) 3.29
3 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.76
4 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 4.3
5 up (harappa) 4.61
6 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.82
7 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.01
8 ap-brahmin (xing) 5.08
9 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.17
10 bihari (harappa) 5.18
11 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.24
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 5.24
13 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.39
14 tamil (harappa) 5.62
15 caribbean-indian (harappa) 5.78
16 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.91
17 tharu (metspalu) 6.03
18 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.11
19 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 6.16
20 kerala-muslim (harappa) 6.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.5% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 40.5% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.55
2 57% vysya (reich) + 43% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.59
3 63% kurumba (metspalu) + 37% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.6
4 66.8% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 33.2% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.6
5 61.5% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 38.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.68
6 54.4% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 45.6% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.7
7 55.1% sakilli (chaubey) + 44.9% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.71
8 63.4% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 36.6% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.74
9 56.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 43.1% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 1.75
10 90.1% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 9.9% irula (xing) @ 1.76
11 63.8% hallaki (reich) + 36.2% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.76
12 85.1% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 14.9% urkarah (xing) @ 1.77
13 60.1% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 39.9% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.79
14 68.6% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 31.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.8
15 60.9% sakilli (chaubey) + 39.1% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.81
16 62.1% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 37.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.82
17 90.3% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) + 9.7% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.83
18 65% kurumba (metspalu) + 35% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.83
19 67.5% vysya (reich) + 32.5% pashtun (harappa) @ 1.86
20 51.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 48.4% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.86

vishankar
09-30-2019, 06:57 PM
the oracle matches seem to have changed, and i have marginally less ASI here, for south asians which is better-ftdna or 23 and me???

Coldmountains
09-30-2019, 07:33 PM
R1b is so western european....!!! and to my knowledge no malayalis i know have it!!..may be there among anglo indians though!

Some clades of R1b are very eastern. R1b-PH155 which was frequent among Huns orginated probably in Siberia or at the very eastern end of Europe. Also R1b expanded first eastwards. R1a-M417 actually arrived later in Central Asia and Siberia

thorin
10-01-2019, 12:54 AM
Alright makkale - adding my 23andme results - anyone have any insight from this info? Can we glean anything from just this? Look pretty useless to me actually - 24% malayalee makes no sense should be 100%. Also how do i use this to get harappaworld results?

33503

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwWXPh6-EspSTnZwcXU2djZqZWVvRi1PRjNuS3Z4TUFzbGlR

I know it doesn't add up to 100 but the rest was "broadly central and south asian" whatever that means...

Rustyshakelford
10-01-2019, 03:37 AM
Alright makkale - adding my 23andme results - anyone have any insight from this info? Can we glean anything from just this? Look pretty useless to me actually - 24% malayalee makes no sense should be 100%. Also how do i use this to get harappaworld results?

33503
.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwWXPh6-EspSTnZwcXU2djZqZWVvRi1PRjNuS3Z4TUFzbGlR

I know it doesn't add up to 100 but the rest was "broadly central and south asian" whatever that means...

23andme results won’t tell you much. I’m guessing you’re not a Kerala Christian which is why the malayalee percentage is so low. Syrian Christians have tested at a much higher rate than others so the 23andme malayalee category is skewed towards them.
To get Harappa results you can download the raw file from 23andme then make an account with gedmatch and upload the file there. Then you can select harappaworld from the list of available admixture calculators

JTM
10-01-2019, 04:30 AM
You are one of those Brahmin shifted Syrian Christian .So either you might have recent Brahmin ancestors or they have preserved such an ancestry to an extent . As I told my paternal grandparents also have similar results but they do not have any recent non Syrian Christian ancestry

Now I came to know that my father's maternal family is a Bhattathiri converted 5 generations ago.

aaronbee2010
10-01-2019, 12:18 PM
R1b is so western european....!!! and to my knowledge no malayalis i know have it!!..may be there among anglo indians though!

Not true at all. The vast majority of West Euro R1b specifically comes under R-L51. Other subclades of R1b are more common in other areas than they are in Europe:

R-Z2103 (most common in West Asia)

R-M73 (most common in Siberia)

R-V88 (most common in Central Africa)

R-PH155 (most common in Asia)

R-M343* (only found in one man, a Maharashtran Brahmin)

Your comment is fairly valid for R-L51 (an Indian with this lineage is most likely paternally descended from a British man who was in India during the British Raj), but there are other subclades of R1b that don't have a particularly strong association with Europe.

Distinguishing between subclades is very important, as putting all R1b (or any haplogroup for that matter) in the same basket isn't particularly productive.

thorin
10-01-2019, 01:20 PM
23andme results won’t tell you much. I’m guessing you’re not a Kerala Christian which is why the malayalee percentage is so low. Syrian Christians have tested at a much higher rate than others so the 23andme malayalee category is skewed towards them.
To get Harappa results you can download the raw file from 23andme then make an account with gedmatch and upload the file there. Then you can select harappaworld from the list of available admixture calculators

I'm kerala hindu. Ive requested a download from 23andme of data and i'll open up a gedmatch account - thanks for the heads up!

thorin
10-01-2019, 01:46 PM
Alright just ran harappaworld on gedmatch... what the heck is baloch? is south indian aasi and baloch is iran-farmer related? Am i reading that correctly?

33526

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.22
2 Baloch 37.03
3 Caucasian 6.12
4 SW-Asian 5.07
5 NE-Asian 1.6
6 NE-Euro 0.9
7 Papuan 0.59
8 American 0.35
9 Pygmy 0.1
10 Mediterranean 0.01
11 SE-Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 4.13
2 kerala-nair (harappa) 4.6
3 rajasthani (harappa) 5.37
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.57
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.73
6 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.81
7 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.89
8 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.15
9 maharashtrian (harappa) 6.41
10 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.5
11 ap-reddy (harappa) 6.65
12 meghawal (reich) 6.93
13 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 7.1
14 gujarati (harappa) 7.19
15 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 7.21
16 tamil (harappa) 7.4
17 up (harappa) 7.42
18 kerala-muslim (harappa) 7.6
19 karnataka (harappa) 7.99
20 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 8.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74% naidu (reich) + 26% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.94
2 72.4% naidu (reich) + 27.6% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.05
3 63.8% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) + 36.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.09
4 71.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 28.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.26
5 70.3% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 29.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.31
6 59% tn-dalit (xing) + 41% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.34
7 64.8% sakilli (chaubey) + 35.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.36
8 63.1% sakilli (chaubey) + 36.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.37
9 74% naidu (reich) + 26% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.45
10 62.1% ap-madiga (xing) + 37.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.46
11 65.2% kamsali (reich) + 34.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.48
12 77.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 22.4% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.49
13 62% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) + 38% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.49
14 71.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 28.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.51
15 76.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 23.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.54
16 66.9% kamsali (reich) + 33.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.54
17 72.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 27.6% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.56
18 64.9% sakilli (chaubey) + 35.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.64
19 70.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 29.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.64
20 74.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 25.5% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.66

Yggdrasi^
10-01-2019, 02:30 PM
I'm kerala hindu. Ive requested a download from 23andme of data and i'll open up a gedmatch account - thanks for the heads up!

curious, which hindu caste do you belong?