PDA

View Full Version : Kerala Y-DNA Distribution



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8

thorin
10-01-2019, 02:42 PM
curious, which hindu caste do you belong?

I'm from the Nair caste in Kerala. Historically we've been involved in military conflicts in the region. We are an odd caste in that we are low and high caste at the same time. The brahmins considered us shudras but in practice we actually formed the leadership ranks of society historically. The closest analogy I can think of is Jats from haryana and punjab - considered low caste but in reality run the show.

We also have unique social customs that are distinct from other groups including matrilineal inheritance and serpent worship. There are many theories about our origins in the region including speculation that we are descended from naga scythians from ahichatra.

What caste are you? Or are you from another region? I noticed we have the same haplogroups.

Yggdrasi^
10-01-2019, 03:04 PM
I'm from the Nair caste in Kerala. Historically we've been involved in military conflicts in the region. We are an odd caste in that we are low and high caste at the same time. The brahmins considered us shudras but in practice we actually formed the leadership ranks of society historically. The closest analogy I can think of is Jats from haryana and punjab - considered low caste but in reality run the show.

We also have unique social customs that are distinct from other groups including matrilineal inheritance and serpent worship. There are many theories about our origins in the region including speculation that we are descended from naga scythians from ahichatra.

What caste are you? Or are you from another region? I noticed we have the same haplogroups.


Thank you! I'm from kerala too, syrian christian.

Honestly, i do not know much of the jati/varna system of the past. So I am trying find out as who we were generations ago.

You input definitely helps.

The knowledgeable members of this forum is of the opinion that I belong to an IVC shifted population group. My harappaworld results - maybe this helps:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.37
2 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.83
3 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.97
4 tamil (harappa) 4.13
5 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.14
6 karnataka (harappa) 4.31
7 tharu (metspalu) 4.6
8 rajasthani (harappa) 4.63
9 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.69
10 up (harappa) 5.21
11 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.29
12 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.39
13 velama (reich) 5.75
14 velama (metspalu) 5.86
15 bihari (harappa) 6.03
16 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.04
17 dharkar (metspalu) 6.3
18 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 6.33
19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.34
20 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.38


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.4% velama (metspalu) + 7.6% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.97
2 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
3 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
4 91.5% velama (metspalu) + 8.5% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.03
5 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 2.03
6 92.2% velama (metspalu) + 7.8% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 2.04
7 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% adygei (hgdp) @ 2.07
8 74.6% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 25.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.12
9 74% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 26% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.15
10 60.5% vysya (reich) + 39.5% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.19
11 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% lezgin (behar) @ 2.19
12 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.2
13 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 2.21
14 80.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.21
15 77.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 22.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.24
16 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% azeri (harappa) @ 2.29
17 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk (behar) @ 2.29
18 94.4% karnataka (harappa) + 5.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.3
19 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 2.31
20 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 2.34



Would i be correct in assuming that both your father/mother's family were Nairs?

R-Z93 roots are obviously widely debated. I am curious about U1a3 origins as well. I have not been able to make a satisfactory conclusion after conducting different tests/calculators - sometimes the results are contradictory or confusing :)

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-haplogroup-U1a3-originate-from

vishankar
10-01-2019, 03:15 PM
Thank you! I'm from kerala too, syrian christian.

Honestly, i do not know much of the jati/varna system of the past. So I am trying find out as who we were generations ago.

You input definitely helps.

The knowledgeable members of this forum is of the opinion that I belong to an IVC shifted population group. My harappaworld results - maybe this helps:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.37
2 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.83
3 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.97
4 tamil (harappa) 4.13
5 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.14
6 karnataka (harappa) 4.31
7 tharu (metspalu) 4.6
8 rajasthani (harappa) 4.63
9 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.69
10 up (harappa) 5.21
11 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.29
12 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.39
13 velama (reich) 5.75
14 velama (metspalu) 5.86
15 bihari (harappa) 6.03
16 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.04
17 dharkar (metspalu) 6.3
18 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 6.33
19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.34
20 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.38


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.4% velama (metspalu) + 7.6% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.97
2 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
3 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
4 91.5% velama (metspalu) + 8.5% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.03
5 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 2.03
6 92.2% velama (metspalu) + 7.8% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 2.04
7 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% adygei (hgdp) @ 2.07
8 74.6% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 25.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.12
9 74% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 26% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.15
10 60.5% vysya (reich) + 39.5% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.19
11 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% lezgin (behar) @ 2.19
12 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.2
13 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 2.21
14 80.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.21
15 77.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 22.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.24
16 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% azeri (harappa) @ 2.29
17 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk (behar) @ 2.29
18 94.4% karnataka (harappa) + 5.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.3
19 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 2.31
20 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 2.34



Would i be correct in assuming that both your father/mother's family were Nairs?

R-Z93 roots are obviously widely debated. I am curious about U1a3 origins as well. I have not been able to make a satisfactory conclusion after conducting different tests/calculators - sometimes the results are contradictory or confusing :)

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-haplogroup-U1a3-originate-from

hi friend,
can you post your harappa components? i.e asi, baloch, ne europe etc?

Yggdrasi^
10-01-2019, 03:27 PM
hi friend,
can you post your harappa components? i.e asi, baloch, ne europe etc?

Hi, here you go:

Population

S-Indian 51.89 Pct
Baloch 34.48 Pct
Caucasian 6.54 Pct
NE-Euro 1.68 Pct
SE-Asian 1.28 Pct
Siberian 0.13 Pct
NE-Asian 1.23 Pct
Papuan 0.27 Pct
American -
Beringian 1.59 Pct
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 0.86 Pct
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

my PCA looks like this:

33527

thorin
10-01-2019, 03:30 PM
Thank you! I'm from kerala too, syrian christian.

Honestly, i do not know much of the jati/varna system of the past. So I am trying find out as who we were generations ago.

You input definitely helps.

The knowledgeable members of this forum is of the opinion that I belong to an IVC shifted population group. My harappaworld results - maybe this helps:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.37
2 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.83
3 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.97
4 tamil (harappa) 4.13
5 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.14
6 karnataka (harappa) 4.31
7 tharu (metspalu) 4.6
8 rajasthani (harappa) 4.63
9 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.69
10 up (harappa) 5.21
11 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.29
12 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.39
13 velama (reich) 5.75
14 velama (metspalu) 5.86
15 bihari (harappa) 6.03
16 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.04
17 dharkar (metspalu) 6.3
18 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 6.33
19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.34
20 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.38


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.4% velama (metspalu) + 7.6% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.97
2 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
3 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
4 91.5% velama (metspalu) + 8.5% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.03
5 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 2.03
6 92.2% velama (metspalu) + 7.8% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 2.04
7 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% adygei (hgdp) @ 2.07
8 74.6% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 25.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.12
9 74% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 26% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.15
10 60.5% vysya (reich) + 39.5% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.19
11 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% lezgin (behar) @ 2.19
12 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.2
13 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 2.21
14 80.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.21
15 77.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 22.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.24
16 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% azeri (harappa) @ 2.29
17 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk (behar) @ 2.29
18 94.4% karnataka (harappa) + 5.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.3
19 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 2.31
20 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 2.34



Would i be correct in assuming that both your father/mother's family were Nairs?

R-Z93 roots are obviously widely debated. I am curious about U1a3 origins as well. I have not been able to make a satisfactory conclusion after conducting different tests/calculators - sometimes the results are contradictory or confusing :)

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-haplogroup-U1a3-originate-from

Yes both my parents were Nair and both were from traditional families (i.e tharavad house with sarpa kavu, etc) which is why I suspect we've probably been Nairs for quite some time.

Did you get similar scores for SW Asian and Caucasian? I assume that is why people say you're IVC shifted. I suspect I'm IVC shifted as well. It sort of makes sense that upper caste non-brahmin groups from Southwestern India (like Nairs and Syrian Christians) would be IVC shifted. I suspect our ancestors moved south sometime in the iron age.

Haplogroup wise that obviously comes from the north. Most likely Nairs were part of some northern army that came south and merged in with the IVC shifted elites - when or in what context that happened who knows. I wasn't surprised by the yDNA given Nair history but the mtDNA was a surprise. I expected that to be haplogroup M. The U is likely an IVC lineage. I know the Rakhigarhi woman they recently sequenced was also U (U2b if I recall).

I also suspect that Syrian Christians are mostly Nair converts with some variation. And given the preponderance of R-Z93 in your yDNA I suspect the conversion occurred well after the northern Nair's merged in with the post-IVC elites.

Hope that helps.

vishankar
10-01-2019, 03:41 PM
Yes both my parents were Nair and both were from traditional families (i.e tharavad house with sarpa kavu, etc) which is why I suspect we've probably been Nairs for quite some time.

Did you get similar scores for SW Asian and Caucasian? I assume that is why people say you're IVC shifted. I suspect I'm IVC shifted as well. It sort of makes sense that upper caste non-brahmin groups from Southwestern India (like Nairs and Syrian Christians) would be IVC shifted. I suspect our ancestors moved south sometime in the iron age.

Haplogroup wise that obviously comes from the north. Most likely Nairs were part of some northern army that came south and merged in with the IVC shifted elites - when or in what context that happened who knows. I wasn't surprised by the yDNA given Nair history but the mtDNA was a surprise. I expected that to be haplogroup M. The U is likely an IVC lineage. I know the Rakhigarhi woman they recently sequenced was also U (U2b if I recall).

I also suspect that Syrian Christians are mostly Nair converts with some variation. And given the preponderance of R-Z93 in your yDNA I suspect the conversion occurred well after the northern Nair's merged in with the post-IVC elites.

Hope that helps.

hi..actuallyeven i am mtdna u- U1A1C to be precise....south kerala has a very heavy U presence, just check out the U mtdna map...

thorin
10-01-2019, 03:43 PM
hi..actuallyeven i am mtdna u- U1A1C to be precise....south kerala has a very heavy U presence, just check out the U mtdna map...

Thanks! Do you have a link to that?

Yggdrasi^
10-01-2019, 03:53 PM
Yes both my parents were Nair and both were from traditional families (i.e tharavad house with sarpa kavu, etc) which is why I suspect we've probably been Nairs for quite some time.

Did you get similar scores for SW Asian and Caucasian? I assume that is why people say you're IVC shifted. I suspect I'm IVC shifted as well. It sort of makes sense that upper caste non-brahmin groups from Southwestern India (like Nairs and Syrian Christians) would be IVC shifted. I suspect our ancestors moved south sometime in the iron age.

Haplogroup wise that obviously comes from the north. Most likely Nairs were part of some northern army that came south and merged in with the IVC shifted elites - when or in what context that happened who knows. I wasn't surprised by the yDNA given Nair history but the mtDNA was a surprise. I expected that to be haplogroup M. The U is likely an IVC lineage. I know the Rakhigarhi woman they recently sequenced was also U (U2b if I recall).

I also suspect that Syrian Christians are mostly Nair converts with some variation. And given the preponderance of R-Z93 in your yDNA I suspect the conversion occurred well after the northern Nair's merged in with the post-IVC elites.

Hope that helps.


Thank you, this been very helpful. I did not know of this possibility at all.


Our Caucasian results look similar, but SW Asian - i have a lesser %


My G25 looks like this (This is before the narasimhan/rakhigarhi paper was released).

[1] "distance%=2.6896"

IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,86.4
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,7
WHG,2
Han,1.8
Jarawa,1.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,1

BMG
10-01-2019, 04:21 PM
Is it know to exist among any other group in Kerala?

Apart from Syrian Christians we have a very small sample size . There is a Hindu R1b sample in the ftdna project .

BMG
10-01-2019, 04:24 PM
Not true at all. The vast majority of West Euro R1b specifically comes under R-L51. Other subclades of R1b are more common in other areas than they are in Europe:

R-Z2103 (most common in West Asia)

R-M73 (most common in Siberia)

R-V88 (most common in Central Africa)

R-PH155 (most common in Asia)

Your comment is fairly valid for R-L51 (an Indian with this lineage is most likely paternally descended from a British man who was in India during the British Raj), but there are other subclades of R1b that don't have a particularly strong association with Europe.

Distinguishing between subclades is very important, as putting all R1b (or any haplogroup for that matter) in the same basket isn't particularly productive.
Add to that our Joshi who is PH155- and L784- .

BMG
10-01-2019, 04:32 PM
Thank you! I'm from kerala too, syrian christian.

Honestly, i do not know much of the jati/varna system of the past. So I am trying find out as who we were generations ago.

You input definitely helps.

The knowledgeable members of this forum is of the opinion that I belong to an IVC shifted population group. My harappaworld results - maybe this helps:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.37
2 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 3.83
3 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.97
4 tamil (harappa) 4.13
5 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.14
6 karnataka (harappa) 4.31
7 tharu (metspalu) 4.6
8 rajasthani (harappa) 4.63
9 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.69
10 up (harappa) 5.21
11 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.29
12 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.39
13 velama (reich) 5.75
14 velama (metspalu) 5.86
15 bihari (harappa) 6.03
16 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.04
17 dharkar (metspalu) 6.3
18 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 6.33
19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.34
20 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.38


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.4% velama (metspalu) + 7.6% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.97
2 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
3 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 1.99
4 91.5% velama (metspalu) + 8.5% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.03
5 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) @ 2.03
6 92.2% velama (metspalu) + 7.8% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 2.04
7 92.5% velama (metspalu) + 7.5% adygei (hgdp) @ 2.07
8 74.6% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 25.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.12
9 74% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 26% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.15
10 60.5% vysya (reich) + 39.5% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.19
11 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% lezgin (behar) @ 2.19
12 91.8% velama (metspalu) + 8.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.2
13 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 2.21
14 80.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.21
15 77.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 22.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.24
16 91.6% velama (metspalu) + 8.4% azeri (harappa) @ 2.29
17 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk (behar) @ 2.29
18 94.4% karnataka (harappa) + 5.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.3
19 91.9% velama (metspalu) + 8.1% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 2.31
20 92.1% velama (metspalu) + 7.9% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 2.34



Would i be correct in assuming that both your father/mother's family were Nairs?

R-Z93 roots are obviously widely debated. I am curious about U1a3 origins as well. I have not been able to make a satisfactory conclusion after conducting different tests/calculators - sometimes the results are contradictory or confusing :)

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-haplogroup-U1a3-originate-from

The malayali U1a1c4 is due to a high founder effect . It is common among south Indian and Sinhalese but among malayalis it is found at a high percentage . One old study done at neendakara island near kollam found almost 70% of the samples had U1 Mtdna .

BMG
10-01-2019, 04:37 PM
Alright just ran harappaworld on gedmatch... what the heck is baloch? is south indian aasi and baloch is iran-farmer related? Am i reading that correctly?

33526

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.22
2 Baloch 37.03
3 Caucasian 6.12
4 SW-Asian 5.07
5 NE-Asian 1.6
6 NE-Euro 0.9
7 Papuan 0.59
8 American 0.35
9 Pygmy 0.1
10 Mediterranean 0.01
11 SE-Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 4.13
2 kerala-nair (harappa) 4.6
3 rajasthani (harappa) 5.37
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.57
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.73
6 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.81
7 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.89
8 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.15
9 maharashtrian (harappa) 6.41
10 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.5
11 ap-reddy (harappa) 6.65
12 meghawal (reich) 6.93
13 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 7.1
14 gujarati (harappa) 7.19
15 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 7.21
16 tamil (harappa) 7.4
17 up (harappa) 7.42
18 kerala-muslim (harappa) 7.6
19 karnataka (harappa) 7.99
20 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 8.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74% naidu (reich) + 26% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.94
2 72.4% naidu (reich) + 27.6% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.05
3 63.8% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) + 36.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.09
4 71.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 28.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.26
5 70.3% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 29.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.31
6 59% tn-dalit (xing) + 41% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.34
7 64.8% sakilli (chaubey) + 35.2% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.36
8 63.1% sakilli (chaubey) + 36.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.37
9 74% naidu (reich) + 26% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.45
10 62.1% ap-madiga (xing) + 37.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.46
11 65.2% kamsali (reich) + 34.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.48
12 77.6% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 22.4% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.49
13 62% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) + 38% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.49
14 71.9% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 28.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.51
15 76.2% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 23.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.54
16 66.9% kamsali (reich) + 33.1% brahui (hgdp) @ 2.54
17 72.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 27.6% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.56
18 64.9% sakilli (chaubey) + 35.1% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.64
19 70.8% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 29.2% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.64
20 74.5% kurumba (metspalu) + 25.5% makrani (hgdp) @ 2.66

Which part of Kerala is your family from ?

thorin
10-01-2019, 04:48 PM
Which part of Kerala is your family from ?

Father is from Vechoor and my mom is from Ettumanoor - both are satellite towns near Kottayam and Vaikom. I was born there as well. Where are you from? Are you also a Nair and do you have harappa results you can share?

Yggdrasi^
10-01-2019, 06:18 PM
The malayali U1a1c4 is due to a high founder effect . It is common among south Indian and Sinhalese but among malayalis it is found at a high percentage . One old study done at neendakara island near kollam found almost 70% of the samples had U1 Mtdna .


Does that mean there was a source population which came from elsewhere?


Snippet from an an old paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828245/

U1a, comprises a series of sub-clades (U1a1, U1a2, U1a3, and U1a4) dating to 13–15 kya;

it was found across Southwest and South Asia, the Caucasus region and Europe, but at least one lineage within U1a3, which we called here U1a3b, was restricted to Iran.

It is characterized by coalescence age estimates of about 10–16 kya thus placing its origin to postglacial or Late Glacial time.

It should be noted, that the Persian-specific U1a3a branch is also found in Sardinians, and its estimated age of 8–10 kya points to a long-standing link between them.

What is interesting was:


Wiki: Several studies have been carried out on the genetics of the Sardinian population, in light of the way such peculiarities can also further research on some pathologies to which the Sardinians seem to be predisposed,[168][169][170] like diabetes mellitus type 1,[171] beta thalassemia and favism,[172] multiple sclerosis and coeliac disease.

I am noob in all matters genetics, but it is strange that my many members of maternal side of my family suffers from these conditions! Strange coincidence?

aaronbee2010
10-01-2019, 08:22 PM
Add to that our Joshi who is PH155- and L784- .

I'm assuming you meant L754 (L784 comes under R1a). This makes sense considering his 67 STR's on FTDNA turn up as an unsupported subclade. On ISOGG 2019 and YFull, he would be a genuine R1b-M343* (xR1b1-L754, R1b2-PH155).

That man needs a Big Y-700! There are loads of men who would pay for it, if he was okay with it. I have a feeling he was probably already asked before though, but that's just my guess.

Edit: The India FTDNA Project put me under R1b. Words cannot describe my anger >:(

Rustyshakelford
10-01-2019, 10:12 PM
Father is from Vechoor and my mom is from Ettumanoor - both are satellite towns near Kottayam and Vaikom. I was born there as well. Where are you from? Are you also a Nair and do you have harappa results you can share?

My paternal family traces their roots back to Kaipuzha which lays along the route between vechoor and ettumanoor.

BMG
10-02-2019, 02:57 AM
Father is from Vechoor and my mom is from Ettumanoor - both are satellite towns near Kottayam and Vaikom. I was born there as well. Where are you from? Are you also a Nair and do you have harappa results you can share?

My family is from southern part of alapuzha district except for my maternal grandfather who is from ranni. I am a Syrian Christian . My family harappa results are already posted here in the below link
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2891-Kerala-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=508041&viewfull=1#post508041

Varun R
10-02-2019, 04:27 AM
Alright makkale - adding my 23andme results - anyone have any insight from this info? Can we glean anything from just this? Look pretty useless to me actually - 24% malayalee makes no sense should be 100%. Also how do i use this to get harappaworld results?

33503

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwWXPh6-EspSTnZwcXU2djZqZWVvRi1PRjNuS3Z4TUFzbGlR

I know it doesn't add up to 100 but the rest was "broadly central and south asian" whatever that means...

This result kind of makes sense to me. I expected Nair to have a good amount of 'Southern Indian Subgroup' due to shared history

Also noticed your SW Asian on Harappa is on the high side

BMG
10-02-2019, 04:38 PM
Does that mean there was a source population which came from elsewhere?


Snippet from an an old paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828245/

U1a, comprises a series of sub-clades (U1a1, U1a2, U1a3, and U1a4) dating to 13–15 kya;

it was found across Southwest and South Asia, the Caucasus region and Europe, but at least one lineage within U1a3, which we called here U1a3b, was restricted to Iran.

It is characterized by coalescence age estimates of about 10–16 kya thus placing its origin to postglacial or Late Glacial time.

It should be noted, that the Persian-specific U1a3a branch is also found in Sardinians, and its estimated age of 8–10 kya points to a long-standing link between them.

What is interesting was:


Wiki: Several studies have been carried out on the genetics of the Sardinian population, in light of the way such peculiarities can also further research on some pathologies to which the Sardinians seem to be predisposed,[168][169][170] like diabetes mellitus type 1,[171] beta thalassemia and favism,[172] multiple sclerosis and coeliac disease.

I am noob in all matters genetics, but it is strange that my many members of maternal side of my family suffers from these conditions! Strange coincidence?
The diversity of U1 is at near east and around meditteranean coast . U1a1c4 could have reached south Asia and went on to have a founder effect along with haplogroups like HV14a1 and H13a2a1 . My guess is these haplogroups might have been part of the IVC populations and would have spread south with agiriculture expansions .

vishankar
10-02-2019, 06:42 PM
I have a phased genome to represent my grandfather . Since no sibling's are alive i have run a phased genome through harappa calc to represent my maternal grandfather . He is seemingly in line with general syrian christians results . There was no expected high NE Asian so the maternal uncle's geno 2.0 NE Asian is just noise due to low markers . I have made into a single table all the grandparent's result .




PGF
PGM
MGF
MGM


Y
R-L657
C-P92
L-M357
J-L26


mt
HV
J1b1a1
M5a
R30a


S-Indian
47.73
48.97
50.03
48.69


Baloch
35.98
34.62
33.92
37.24


Caucasian
5.11
3.8
6.35
3.72


NE-Euro
4.38
4.95
2.27
2.96


SE-Asian
1.62
0.65
1.03
0.66


Siberian
0.73
1.52
1.42
1.61


NE-Asian
1.23
0.44
0.98
1.16


Papuan
0.45
1.29
0.77
1.23


American
0.99
0
0.42
0.38


Beringian
0.17
0.33
1.11
0


Mediterranean
1.14
0.09
0
0.91


SW-Asian
0.22
3.34
1.7
1.44


E-African
0.05
0
0
0



hi....
great work! how do you do this phased genome analysis??

BMG
10-03-2019, 04:55 PM
hi....
great work! how do you do this phased genome analysis??
I used genomes of father and daughters genome and got phased genome of the mother who was the sister of my maternal grandfather . There was one phasing tool available online . It is essentially dividing your genome into mother's strand and father's strand . If we know the genome of one of the parent we can infer the gene inherited from them . Obviously the other one will give the other parents contribution .
For eg . If you have CG for a particular snp and your father is CC obviously you got your G from your mother .

vishankar
10-07-2019, 04:46 PM
harappa oracles and components of nambudiri lady from taliparamba, kannur-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.51
2 Baloch 34.05
3 Caucasian 9.19
4 NE-Euro 6.77
5 Beringian 1.47
6 Siberian 0.93
7 American 0.64
8 NE-Asian 0.38
9 SW-Asian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.36
2 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.82
3 rajasthani (harappa) 4.9
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.9
5 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.95
6 meghawal (reich) 5.41
7 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.42
8 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.7
9 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 5.73
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 6.08
11 kerala-christian (harappa) 6.13
12 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.23
13 gujarati (harappa) 6.25
14 up (harappa) 6.38
15 vaish (reich) 6.55
16 gujarati-b (hapmap) 6.85
17 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 6.87
18 bihari (harappa) 7.1
19 srivastava (reich) 7.26
20 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% chamar (metspalu) + 45.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.74
2 66.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 33.4% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.86
3 66.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 33.8% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.87
4 66.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 33.6% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 2.02
5 50.5% madiga (reich) + 49.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.02
6 67.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 32.1% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.06
7 52.1% kalash (hgdp) + 47.9% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.06
8 64.9% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 35.1% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 2.07
9 52.9% bhil (reich) + 47.1% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.07
10 67.1% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 32.9% mala (reich) @ 2.07
11 68.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 31.6% mala (reich) @ 2.11
12 65.1% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 34.9% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 2.12
13 86% tharu (metspalu) + 14% lezgin (behar) @ 2.12
14 85.8% tharu (metspalu) + 14.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.13
15 50.7% ap-madiga (xing) + 49.3% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.17
16 64.3% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 35.7% madiga (reich) @ 2.19
17 67.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 32.9% kurumba (reich) @ 2.19
18 63.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 36.1% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 2.2
19 61.6% kol (metspalu) + 38.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.2
20 60.4% hallaki (reich) + 39.6% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.22

client
10-07-2019, 06:00 PM
harappa oracles and components of nambudiri lady from taliparamba, kannur-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.51
2 Baloch 34.05
3 Caucasian 9.19
4 NE-Euro 6.77
5 Beringian 1.47
6 Siberian 0.93
7 American 0.64
8 NE-Asian 0.38
9 SW-Asian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.36
2 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.82
3 rajasthani (harappa) 4.9
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.9
5 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.95
6 meghawal (reich) 5.41
7 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.42
8 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.7
9 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 5.73
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 6.08
11 kerala-christian (harappa) 6.13
12 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.23
13 gujarati (harappa) 6.25
14 up (harappa) 6.38
15 vaish (reich) 6.55
16 gujarati-b (hapmap) 6.85
17 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 6.87
18 bihari (harappa) 7.1
19 srivastava (reich) 7.26
20 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% chamar (metspalu) + 45.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.74
2 66.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 33.4% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.86
3 66.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 33.8% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.87
4 66.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 33.6% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 2.02
5 50.5% madiga (reich) + 49.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.02
6 67.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 32.1% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.06
7 52.1% kalash (hgdp) + 47.9% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.06
8 64.9% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 35.1% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 2.07
9 52.9% bhil (reich) + 47.1% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.07
10 67.1% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 32.9% mala (reich) @ 2.07
11 68.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 31.6% mala (reich) @ 2.11
12 65.1% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 34.9% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 2.12
13 86% tharu (metspalu) + 14% lezgin (behar) @ 2.12
14 85.8% tharu (metspalu) + 14.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.13
15 50.7% ap-madiga (xing) + 49.3% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.17
16 64.3% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 35.7% madiga (reich) @ 2.19
17 67.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 32.9% kurumba (reich) @ 2.19
18 63.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 36.1% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 2.2
19 61.6% kol (metspalu) + 38.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.2
20 60.4% hallaki (reich) + 39.6% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.22

Clear NW type affinity as per the mixed mode oracles.

vishankar
10-07-2019, 08:10 PM
Clear NW type affinity as per the mixed mode oracles.

yes...nambudiri brahmins, as per the keralopathi they migrated from the area around western UP, but i guess there should be some affinities with brahmins from the northwest too...

aaronbee2010
10-08-2019, 12:58 AM
I have a phased genome to represent my grandfather . Since no sibling's are alive i have run a phased genome through harappa calc to represent my maternal grandfather . He is seemingly in line with general syrian christians results . There was no expected high NE Asian so the maternal uncle's geno 2.0 NE Asian is just noise due to low markers . I have made into a single table all the grandparent's result .




PGF
PGM
MGF
MGM


Y
R-L657
C-P92
L-M357
J-L26


mt
HV
J1b1a1
M5a
R30a


S-Indian
47.73
48.97
50.03
48.69


Baloch
35.98
34.62
33.92
37.24


Caucasian
5.11
3.8
6.35
3.72


NE-Euro
4.38
4.95
2.27
2.96


SE-Asian
1.62
0.65
1.03
0.66


Siberian
0.73
1.52
1.42
1.61


NE-Asian
1.23
0.44
0.98
1.16


Papuan
0.45
1.29
0.77
1.23


American
0.99
0
0.42
0.38


Beringian
0.17
0.33
1.11
0


Mediterranean
1.14
0.09
0
0.91


SW-Asian
0.22
3.34
1.7
1.44


E-African
0.05
0
0
0



Bro, you found all of those haplogroups?!?!?! Holy s**t I feel like a novice now XD

I need to step up my game and get some more family members swabbed when I go to India next time :P

BMG
10-08-2019, 01:32 AM
Bro, you found all of those haplogroups?!?!?! Holy s**t I feel like a novice now XD

I need to step up my game and get some more family members swabbed when I go to India next time :P
Two of the y lines are not from near relatives but from the relatives in the family tree . The will represent my line only if family tree is right ie if there no NPE .

parasar
10-10-2019, 05:34 PM
yes...nambudiri brahmins, as per the keralopathi they migrated from the area around western UP, but i guess there should be some affinities with brahmins from the northwest too...

Not sure about Nambuthiri brahmans specifically, but apparently there is little IBD segment sharing between Southern and Northern brahmans. So the separation looks to be over 2500 years old. The Reich group estimates the separation at iron age or earlier. But within the group itself, there is very high IBD segment sharing.

client
10-11-2019, 03:19 AM
Not sure about Nambuthiri brahmans specifically, but apparently there is little IBD segment sharing between Southern and Northern brahmans. So the separation looks to be over 2500 years old. The Reich group estimates the separation at iron age or earlier. But within the group itself, there is very high IBD segment sharing.

Maybe the separation isn't that old but northern Brahmins became Scythianised unlike Sakyapareen southern Brahmins :)

thejkhan
10-11-2019, 04:05 AM
Not sure about Nambuthiri brahmans specifically, but apparently there is little IBD segment sharing between Southern and Northern brahmans. So the separation looks to be over 2500 years old. The Reich group estimates the separation at iron age or earlier. But within the group itself, there is very high IBD segment sharing.

I have always said there is a possibility Southern Brahmins are Sanskritized Indus upper castes - both the Rakhigarhi woman and the Katelai outliers are very close to them except for some extra Steppe in the Southern Brahmins that probably came along with the assimilated R1a men.

client
10-11-2019, 04:50 AM
I have always said there is a possibility Southern Brahmins are Sanskritized Indus upper castes - both the Rakhigarhi woman and the Katelai outliers are very close to them except for some extra Steppe in the Southern Brahmins that probably came along with the assimilated R1a men.

But the point is, how would you both semantically and practically distinguish between Sanskritized Indus upper castes with 'external' Steppe ancestry from R1a carriers and Northern Indian Brahmins who moved south of the Vindhyas and mixed with the locals? The former is just a paraphrased version of the latter, if you think about it, since
everyone who isn't a Jat or a Ror is technically an "assimilated Indus person"(to varying degrees).
You have to have a rigorous definition of "ethnic identity", that which prevails after 'mixing'.
Patrilineality is the kinship system followed by Brahmins(everywhere) and IE people in general, and as per that all Brahmins ideally have the same "origins".

thejkhan
10-11-2019, 05:58 AM
But the point is, how would you both semantically and practically distinguish between Sanskritized Indus upper castes with 'external' Steppe ancestry from R1a carriers and Northern Indian Brahmins who moved south of the Vindhyas and mixed with the locals? The former is just a paraphrased version of the latter, if you think about it, since

The point is the Southern Brahmins may have preserved an autosomal signature that's very close to Indus upper caste and that would not be the case if they were simply a mixture of Southern mid caste and Northern Brahmins - even if same Harappa score can be attained both ways.

client
10-11-2019, 06:15 AM
The point is the Southern Brahmins may have preserved an autosomal signature that's very close to Indus upper caste and that would not be the case if they were simply a mixture of Southern mid caste and Northern Brahmins - even if same Harappa score can be attained both ways.
But attaining the same Harappan score is exactly the same as preserving a specific autosomal signature?
What I am saying is, regardless of what or whom they resemble autosomally, their "identity" (cultural, ethnic, etc) is not affected by it.

Take the case of Mycenaean Greeks who probably had as much if not less Corded ware(or Catacomb, this hasn't been established per se) admixture as Southern Indian Brahmins - ie were essentially largely of Minoan type extraction, but were obviously 'Indo-European'

Also, Indus samples are outside the Indian cline, but yes Southern Brahmins are among the closest groups to them among moderns(but aren't particularly close either).

https://i.imgur.com/hwr9gHW.png


Identity is determined through paternity in our cultures, and that paternity is traditionally assumed (and to an extent established to be - through haplogroups) the same/similar to that of other Brahmins for Southern ones.

agent_lime
10-11-2019, 06:15 AM
Not sure about Nambuthiri brahmans specifically, but apparently there is little IBD segment sharing between Southern and Northern brahmans. So the separation looks to be over 2500 years old. The Reich group estimates the separation at iron age or earlier. But within the group itself, there is very high IBD segment sharing.

Wait.. you think the Southern Brahmins have been their own thing for 2500 years? I thought it was a lot of migration in the last 2000 years.

tipirneni
10-11-2019, 12:00 PM
Wait.. you think the Southern Brahmins have been their own thing for 2500 years? I thought it was a lot of migration in the last 2000 years.

South Brahmins especially Tamil & Telugu are highly mixed with local castes. Some of the South Brahmins might be local castes performing brahmin like work before

parasar
10-11-2019, 04:18 PM
Wait.. you think the Southern Brahmins have been their own thing for 2500 years? I thought it was a lot of migration in the last 2000 years.

Perhaps not sufficient enough to be seen in IBD. Clearer evidence will be from Y data.

If their Y too has split >2500 ybp that would be a confirmation.
Chaubey's upcoming paper is showing that M780 incld. L657 line is the vast majority of R1a in the south at 77%. Looks like pretty robust data from 698 samples from southern India. The diversity is higher in the gangetic plains, though.

An upcoming paper is supposed to single out Catholic Brahmins among the southern Brahmans as having outside IBD sharing. Another group perhaps to be studied would the Saurashtran Brahmans of TN.

thejkhan
10-12-2019, 04:45 AM
But attaining the same Harappan score is exactly the same as preserving a specific autosomal signature?


Not really, because the same Harappa component can come from different sources. I doubt the 12% Caucasus in Irula and the Caucasus in a Kashmiri is from same source.




Also, Indus samples are outside the Indian cline, but yes Southern Brahmins are among the closest groups to them among moderns(but aren't particularly close either).


Identity is determined through paternity in our cultures, and that paternity is traditionally assumed (and to an extent established to be - through haplogroups) the same/similar to that of other Brahmins for Southern ones.

I don't disagree about the focus on paternal lines, but you'll notice Southern Brahmins have significant J, L and G (which is super rare among Northern Brahmins) - which indicate the elite Indus paternal lines survived among them to a great extent.

client
10-12-2019, 05:19 AM
Not really, because the same Harappa component can come from different sources. I doubt the 12% Caucasus in Irula and the Caucasus in a Kashmiri is from same source.



I don't disagree about the focus on paternal lines, but you'll notice Southern Brahmins have significant J, L and G (which is super rare among Northern Brahmins) - which indicate the elite Indus paternal lines survived among them to a great extent.

But how are Gotras among Southern Indian Brahmins(other than niche/ small ones I guess, but those too would be derivatives of larger ones) the same as those among Northern Indian brahmins, did the former independently develop a Gotra system of their own where they chose to give clans the same names?
Why do they even have knowledge of the Vedas, Sanskrit, etc etc.
Basically how did they replicate Brahminhood in the south without influence from the North

I find this argument to be purely semantic, if you are claiming that South Indian Brahmins genetically resemble Indus valley "Elites" or "Upper castes", to a greater extent than Northern Indian Brahmins, I could agree with you, but I don't understand what extrapolations you are drawing regarding culture. Southern Indian and Northern Indian Brahmins follow the same culture, are you trying to say that both groups arrived at this independently of each other(simultaneously)?
Whether "they" are Indus Valley Castes who were "Brahminised"(arbitrary concept) or Brahmins who were "IVCised" is a matter of semantics and there is no real answer to the question other than that of cultural affiliation.

Also its important to note that Iron Age Northern Indian Brahmins =/= Modern day North Indian Brahmins, the former are a group that were ancestral to all Brahmins, the latter are their derivatives(whether they resemble them more closely or not), as anyone else. This is akin to how both IE speaking(say, Balto-Slavic) Europeans and Indians are linguistic derivatives of Corded Ware, the former aren't Corded Ware people themselves(as they have ceased to exist)

agent_lime
10-12-2019, 08:51 AM
Perhaps not sufficient enough to be seen in IBD. Clearer evidence will be from Y data.

If their Y too has split >2500 ybp that would be a confirmation.
Chaubey's upcoming paper is showing that M780 incld. L657 line is the vast majority of R1a in the south at 77%. Looks like pretty robust data from 698 samples from southern India. The diversity is higher in the gangetic plains, though.

An upcoming paper is supposed to single out Catholic Brahmins among the southern Brahmans as having outside IBD sharing. Another group perhaps to be studied would the Saurashtran Brahmans of TN.

I'm just going off my Indian history lessons but didn't a lot of the kingdoms import Brahmins. How would that corelate to Indo Aryans moving all the way from Upper Gangetic plains/ SWAT/ Kashmir all the way down to Tamil Nadu. They shouldn't be getting segment matches with NI Brahmins then.

JTM
10-19-2019, 03:27 AM
South Brahmins especially Tamil & Telugu are highly mixed with local castes. Some of the South Brahmins might be local castes performing brahmin like work before
That is
too much imagination!

tipirneni
10-21-2019, 01:05 AM
That is
too much imagination!

How can keralite group living in highly unchanged way of life for past 1000 years talk about imagination among other groups where social changes have been vast during Medieval time frame

Mandoos
10-21-2019, 02:22 AM
How can keralite group living in highly unchanged way of life for past 1000 years talk about imagination among other groups where social changes have been vast during Medieval time frame

has it really become a Kerala vs AP feud now. Lol we are more similar than different brother.

Censored
10-21-2019, 02:23 AM
has it really become a Kerala vs AP feud now. Lol we are more similar than different brother.

Fr though, you and I are practically the same autosomally.

tipirneni
10-21-2019, 02:28 AM
has it really become a Kerala vs AP feud now. Lol we are more similar than different brother.

I see similarity but some of these one off guys make wide statements without checking data, also lot of the nmonte data being uploaded doesnt has the GED ids or any other 3rd party site to correlate. Some times it is time waste to write even single line

vishankar
10-21-2019, 03:08 AM
I see similarity but some of these one off guys make wide statements without checking data, also lot of the nmonte data being uploaded doesnt has the GED ids or any other 3rd party site to correlate. Some times it is time waste to write even single line

hi [email protected] tipirneni...I too did not understand JTM's statement completely...perhaps he needs to clarify what he meant?....Peace to all!!!

bmoney
10-22-2019, 03:29 AM
Regarding all ANF being via steppe: iirc all the Dravidian castes (with low/nil steppe) including the velamas/kammas and the Kerala samples scored higher than expected ANF on G25. Is it possible that this is some kind of pseudo-ANF being picked up due to more ancient affinities with a related component? Similar to how the paniya and Irula were scoring steppe due to ancient ANE affinity. Not sure if this is a possible given the phylogeny of these components and how diverged they are but I’m curious to hear your take on it.

no idea tbh and speculation is a waste of time, the science is pretty slow and these days i follow Razibs blog to see if anything has really changed

yeah it could be pseudo ANF/Dzu. I used to get African in various calculators which pegasus mentioned was Basal Eurasian related

the non-steppe possibilities are:

- Actual ANF as L and G, (look at T lol) always come with ANF in every ancient sample so far, J2 covers more ground but very likely to be involved (not in all cases)
- Pseudo ANF like how Iran N in South Asia is diverged from Iranian Iran N which had a higher basal+WHG ratio compared to higher ANE in South Asian Iran N (even for the NWers lol damn not as exotic)
- Just a higher Basal to ANE ratio being picked up as pseudo ANF with the WHG being noise - no idea how it would work tbh

im 100% sure that non-steppe ANF or pseudoANF was present and the stuff implied ad nauseaum in this forum about the steppe Indo-Aryan godz being the only ones able to cross the impenetrable physical barriers of South Asia and the circular convos is making me disengage until new papers show up. Tipirnenis shared segments (i agree with u m8, there were a lot of soldier based migrations all over South Asia inc the South, and South Brahmins esp a large subset of Iyers seem to be significantly mixed with local elites or something Gujarati Patel like, and Karnataka and Kerala Brahmins retaining the most Gangetic Brahmin signature overall)

the high ANF/low-nill steppe samples like Kush/Midi would point to a non Iran N non Steppe source to deduce the ANF contrib

my updated 23andme results for data contribution to this thread, i dont think much changed since the beta for me:

Southern South Asian: 45.6%
- Malayali (Syrian Christians from USA) - 18.8%
- Southern Indian & Sri Lankan - 16.8% (Tamil Nadu is highlighted for me)
- Broadly Southern South Asian - 9.9%

Southern Indian Subgroup - 33% (Southern Brahmins in USA) my biggest segment and the one 23andme suggests as the basis for my origin

Central Asian Northern Indian and Pakistani - 9.6%
- Northern Indian - 6.5% -Punjab is highlighted for me
- Bengali & Northeast Indian -1% no highlight
- Broadly Central Asian Northern Indian and Pakistani -2.1%

Broadly Central Asian & South Asian - 11.4%

Trace

Broadly Northwestern European - 0.1%

Unassigned - 0.3%

Any other Kerala users with v5 kits? scobars was interesting, mostly N Indian IIRC

vishankar
10-22-2019, 03:34 PM
no idea tbh and speculation is a waste of time, the science is pretty slow and these days i follow Razibs blog to see if anything has really changed

yeah it could be pseudo ANF/Dzu. I used to get African in various calculators which pegasus mentioned was Basal Eurasian related

the non-steppe possibilities are:

- Actual ANF as L and G, (look at T lol) always come with ANF in every ancient sample so far, J2 covers more ground but very likely to be involved (not in all cases)
- Pseudo ANF like how Iran N in South Asia is diverged from Iranian Iran N which had a higher basal+WHG ratio compared to higher ANE in South Asian Iran N (even for the NWers lol damn not as exotic)
- Just a higher Basal to ANE ratio being picked up as pseudo ANF with the WHG being noise - no idea how it would work tbh

im 100% sure that non-steppe ANF or pseudoANF was present and the stuff implied ad nauseaum in this forum about the steppe Indo-Aryan godz being the only ones able to cross the impenetrable physical barriers of South Asia and the circular convos is making me disengage until new papers show up. Tipirnenis shared segments (i agree with u m8, there were a lot of soldier based migrations all over South Asia inc the South, and South Brahmins esp a large subset of Iyers seem to be significantly mixed with local elites or something Gujarati Patel like, and Karnataka and Kerala Brahmins retaining the most Gangetic Brahmin signature overall)

the high ANF/low-nill steppe samples like Kush/Midi would point to a non Iran N non Steppe source to deduce the ANF contrib

my updated 23andme results for data contribution to this thread, i dont think much changed since the beta for me:

Southern South Asian: 45.6%
- Malayali (Syrian Christians from USA) - 18.8%
- Southern Indian & Sri Lankan - 16.8% (Tamil Nadu is highlighted for me)
- Broadly Southern South Asian - 9.9%

Southern Indian Subgroup - 33% (Southern Brahmins in USA) my biggest segment and the one 23andme suggests as the basis for my origin

Central Asian Northern Indian and Pakistani - 9.6%
- Northern Indian - 6.5% -Punjab is highlighted for me
- Bengali & Northeast Indian -1% no highlight
- Broadly Central Asian Northern Indian and Pakistani -2.1%

Broadly Central Asian & South Asian - 11.4%

Trace

Broadly Northwestern European - 0.1%

Unassigned - 0.3%

Any other Kerala users with v5 kits? scobars was interesting, mostly N Indian IIRC

hi dear, i did a V5 conversion of my ft tree DNA raw data..is it of any use to you???

BMG
10-24-2019, 03:21 PM
Just for fun

I have logged into my ftdna account after a long time and I just complied the haplogroup distribution of my matches there excluding relatives

For Ydna

F-M89 -1

G-M201 -1

H-Z5890 -1
H-FGC43814 -1
H-M69 -1
H-M82 -1

Total H -4

J-M241 -1
J-L534 -1
J-L243 -1
J-M172 -1

Total J-4

L-M76-1
L-M20 -3

Total L-4


Q-Y763 -1
Q-F1893-1
Q-M242 -1

Total Q -3

R-L657 -2
R-Z2123 -1
R-Y40 -2
R-M512 -3
R-M198 -4

Total R1a -12

R-M124 (L295-) -2
R-P267 -2

Total R2- 4

R-M269 -1

Total -34

mtdna

H -1
HV -1
M -9
M2-1
M5-4
M6-3
M52-2
M44-2
M35-1
N-1
R5-2
R6-1
U1-7
Total - 35

BMG
10-25-2019, 04:00 AM
I repeated the same procedure for ydna among gedmatch first 500 matches . It was difficult to prune out non syrian christian matches there ,so i went by name and guessed for few doubtful ones . Nevertheless it came to similar conclusion .

R1a-9
J2a-5
R2-5
L1a-4
C5-2
L1c-2
H-2
Q-2
J2b-1
Total-32

BMG
10-25-2019, 12:10 PM
Y-hg distribution of some select groups

Parsee
E-4/86
G-4/86
H1a-1/86
J2a-37/86
J2b-3/86
L1b-5/86
Q1-1/86
Q1a-1/86
R1b/R2*-9/86
R1a-12/86
R2a-9/86

Goud Saraswat

C5 -1/94
G -1/94
H1a -1/94
H2 -7/94
J2b -5/94
L1a-11/94
L1c-1/94
Q1a-1/94
R1b/R2*-1/94
R1a-63/94

Kodava
C5-1/50
F -1/50
H1a-4/50
J2a-6/50
J2b-2/50
L1a-7/50
L1c-2/50
R1a-19/50
R2a-8/50

Bunt
F-2/74
G-2/74
H* -2/74
H1-2/74
H1a -8/74
H2 -2/74
J2a -3/74
J2b -5/74
L1a -8/74
L1c-1/74
Q1a -4/74
R1b/R2* - 5/74
R1a -22/74
R2a -8/74

Maratha
H* -2/43
H1a -5/43
H2-1/43
J2a-2/43
L1a-3/43
Q1-1/43
Q1a-2/43
R1a-19/43
R2-8/43

Kamma
C5-1/91
F-7/91
G-2/91
H1a-23/91
J2a -2/91
J2b -9/91
L1a-21/91
O2a-1/91
Q* -1/91
R2*/R1b - 1/91
R1a - 12/91
R2a -10/91

BMG
10-25-2019, 12:22 PM
Parsee are from Gujarat .They seem to be very iranian like in their paternal side . They are autosomally about 15-20% southindian at harappa all of which could be mixing with local female after reaching here . Same way the Goud saraswats seems to be like gangetic plain brahmins with respect to ydna though they are hardly differernt from other brahmins in their region autosomally .

The Kodava , Bunts and Maratha who are influential in their regions tend to be high on R1a and R2 . All of the non brahmin upper castes of the west coast seems to be similar in the ydna makeup. While the east coast kamma have more of H1a and L1a and lower R1a/R2

parasar
10-25-2019, 03:19 PM
Parsee are from Gujarat .They seem to be very iranian like in their paternal side . They are autosomally about 15-20% southindian at harappa all of which could be mixing with local female after reaching here . Same way the Goud saraswats seems to be like gangetic plain brahmins with respect to ydna though they are hardly differernt from other brahmins in their region autosomally .

The Kodava , Bunts and Maratha who are influential in their regions tend to be high on R1a and R2 . All of the non brahmin upper castes of the west coast seems to be similar in the ydna makeup. While the east coast kamma have more of H1a and L1a and lower R1a/R2

That is quite high: R1a1 at 67%
R1a-63/94

Perhaps gives credence to their Gour name.
"Dwelling in Trihotra, and belonging to the Pancha Gauda"
https://books.google.com/books?id=-B9DOCCzWxEC&pg=PA9

Tirhut~Vaisali , Bihar area.

But others have disagreed:
"one should reappraise and reconsider R. B. Gunjikar’s suggestion in Sarasvati Mandala (1884) that Trihotra is Tirhut in Bihar, which appears to be founded entirely on
tonal resemblance between the words and not supported by any other scriptural, literary, historical or archeological evidences ... The word Trihotra, Trihotrapura and Gaudapradesha are not found in any earlier scriptural or historical records but only in Skanda Purana, composed in later times"
http://www.nageshsonde.com/Dakshinatya-Sarasvats.pdf

"The association of these sixty-six families with Mithila is not explicitly mentioned,20 but, Madhav Deshpande suggests that Trihotra refers to the Tirhut region of Bihar.21 In addition to the supposed migration of Trihotra Brahmins, it is reported that seventy-five Brahmin families migrated from Mithila westward to Mathura, Agra, andother cities in the Braja region in the early 14th century and have resided there until the present." https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/110341/pandey_1.pdf?sequence=1

BMG
10-25-2019, 03:30 PM
Numbers are from this study which vishankar has earlier shared on this thread
https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/137860

tipirneni
10-25-2019, 06:18 PM
Numbers are from this study which vishankar has earlier shared on this thread
https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/137860
This is very high level study that assumes that
The NRY (HG R1a1a) and mtDNA (M*, M6 and U*)
composition of Indo European speakers suggest their autochthonus origin in India. The data collection seems to be highly localized not statistical.

vishankar
10-26-2019, 09:10 PM
This is very high level study that assumes that
The NRY (HG R1a1a) and mtDNA (M*, M6 and U*)
composition of Indo European speakers suggest their autochthonus origin in India. The data collection seems to be highly localized not statistical.

...and possibly that is why it was not published!

tipirneni
10-26-2019, 09:35 PM
...and possibly that is why it was not published!

For a Phd thesis Syama did a good job publishing the network diagrams etc.. but it is not a nationwide study. Since 2012 due to the massive increase personal genomics sites, we know the haplogroups of quite a number of castes & groups. But since India is still not an advanced country & can't afford to use national facilities for useless stats studies there is no initiative to do a statistical analysis of populations.

BMG
10-27-2019, 03:24 AM
Whatever be the shortcomings it gave us a good idea regarding bunts , kodavas and other west coast groups which are understudied . The trend is that the west coast people tend to have more R1a in them .As per bmoney even the nairs are heavy in R1a/R2 from his matches in 23andme . There seem to be an extra indo-aryan (or indo-aryan brahmin) like input to these western coastal belt .

In the early middle ages there have been a significant presence of buddhism and jainism not only in karnataka and kerala but also in AP and TN areas too . I think these people who bought the religions from the ganga plains are the ones who spread R1a down to south india . These buddhsist/jain merchants/scholars need not be steppe rich as the brahmins and it would have been further diluted with mixing with native south indians but still manage to pass on R1a ydna . It might explain why many south indians have R1a with nil to negiligible steppe in autosomal dna . But in west coast commmunities the R1a share is generally higher with a noticleable amount of steppe in the autosomal dna which could be due to mixing with the indo-aryan brahmins who migrated en masse duting the brahminical revival . While the kerala nambutiri brahmins meke less than 1% (which is mostly like due to their custom of marrying only the eldest son ) the udupi region almost have 20% of the population as brahmins .

These people might have come along with the medievial kings who came from the north who often required brahmins for conducting their rituals . My guess is almost all of the royal clans from kadambas , hoyslalas , Vijayangara and even the ays , mushikas and second cheras from kerala along with their local chiefs have their origins from north . The northern kingdoms had superior warfare techniques imbibed probably from the succesive conqueres who invaded north and west of the subcontinent and their less fortunate branches who might have lost in the internal conflict for power might have looked for new pastures and went south and could have easily defeated the native kings . These ruling clans who have established in south always needed the brahmins for their religious and ritual needs . Apart from that these educated brahmins also served as their ministers and guides and some of them exterted a huge power over these ruling clans .

The additonal steppe in those non-brahmin upper castes like nairs nad bunts could be due to assimilation of the brahmins into them . It might be due to the exogamy of few brahmins and considering the strict rules of purity which reached an insane level among south indian brahmins (probably because they viewed the locals as unclean or non-aryan ) the children from these exogamous marriages will be excluded from being a brahmin . I also think clans like nambiars to be the originally a brahmin sub-caste who lost their ritual high postions due to some reasons . The excluded brahmins still continued to be upper caste and could have merged into the socially upward castes like nairs , bunts etc .

tipirneni
10-27-2019, 03:45 AM
Whatever be the shortcomings it gave us a good idea regarding bunts , kodavas and other west coast groups which are understudied . The trend is that the west coast people tend to have more R1a in them .As per bmoney even the nairs are heavy in R1a/R2 from his matches in 23andme . There seem to be an extra indo-aryan (or indo-aryan brahmin) like input to these western coastal belt .

In the early middle ages there have been a significant presence of buddhism and jainism not only in karnataka and kerala but also in AP and TN areas too . I think these people who bought the religions from the ganga plains are the ones who spread R1a down to south india . These buddhsist/jain merchants/scholars need not be steppe rich as the brahmins and it would have been further diluted with mixing with native south indians but still manage to pass on R1a ydna . It might explain why many south indians have R1a with nil to negiligible steppe in autosomal dna . But in west coast commmunities the R1a share is generally higher with a noticleable amount of steppe in the autosomal dna which could be due to mixing with the indo-aryan brahmins who migrated en masse duting the brahminical revival . While the kerala nambutiri brahmins meke less than 1% (which is mostly like due to their custom of marrying only the eldest son ) the udupi region almost have 20% of the population as brahmins .

These people might have come along with the medievial kings who came from the north who often required brahmins for conducting their rituals . My guess is almost all of the royal clans from kadambas , hoyslalas , Vijayangara and even the ays , mushikas and second cheras from kerala along with their local chiefs have their origins from north . The northern kingdoms had superior warfare techniques imbibed probably from the succesive conqueres who invaded north and west of the subcontinent and their less fortunate branches who might have lost in the internal conflict for power might have looked for new pastures and went south and could have easily defeated the native kings . These ruling clans who have established in south always needed the brahmins for their religious and ritual needs . Apart from that these educated brahmins also served as their ministers and guides and some of them exterted a huge power over these ruling clans .

The additonal steppe in those non-brahmin upper castes like nairs nad bunts could be due to assimilation of the brahmins into them . It might be due to the exogamy of few brahmins and considering the strict rules of purity which reached an insane level among south indian brahmins (probably because they viewed the locals as unclean or non-aryan ) the children from these exogamous marriages will be excluded from being a brahmin . I also think clans like nambiars to be the originally a brahmin sub-caste who lost their ritual high postions due to some reasons . The excluded brahmins still continued to be upper caste and could have merged into the socially upward castes like nairs , bunts etc .

R1a came in many waves & looking at the distribution is not exclusively Brahmin. Many non-brahmin castes that may have outside source still have different clades of R1a.

BMG
10-27-2019, 04:00 AM
R1a came in many waves & looking at the distribution is not exclusively Brahmin. Many non-brahmin castes that may have outside source still have different clades of R1a.
I didn't say it is excusively brahmin either

Thomas48
10-30-2019, 11:17 PM
Hey guys! I recently got a new Knanaya sample. Thought I'd share, it's basically a match to the others. Any idea what the population match to Kerala_Harappa means? Is that just a broad match to Kerala ethnic groups?


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.27
2 Baloch 34.61
3 Caucasian 10.10
4 SW-Asian 3.82
5 NE-Euro 1.74
6 W-African 1.50
7 Papuan 1.40

Using 1 population approximation:
1 kerala_harappa @ 4.810942
2 kerala-christian_harappa @ 5.455326
3 cochin-jew_behar @ 5.473989
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 7.177245
5 maharashtrian_harappa @ 7.222280
6 tn-brahmin_xing @ 7.249656
7 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 7.305646
8 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 7.989450
9 goan_harappa @ 8.075098
10 meghawal_reich @ 8.095234
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 8.159595
12 kerala-nair_harappa @ 8.586155
13 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.634916
14 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 8.716166
15 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 8.951887
16 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 9.116628
17 up_harappa @ 9.212049
18 ap-brahmin_xing @ 9.219221
19 gujarati_harappa @ 9.238842
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 9.507617

bmoney
11-07-2019, 01:50 AM
Hey guys! I recently got a new Knanaya sample. Thought I'd share, it's basically a match to the others. Any idea what the population match to Kerala_Harappa means? Is that just a broad match to Kerala ethnic groups?


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.27
2 Baloch 34.61
3 Caucasian 10.10
4 SW-Asian 3.82
5 NE-Euro 1.74
6 W-African 1.50
7 Papuan 1.40

Using 1 population approximation:
1 kerala_harappa @ 4.810942
2 kerala-christian_harappa @ 5.455326
3 cochin-jew_behar @ 5.473989
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 7.177245
5 maharashtrian_harappa @ 7.222280
6 tn-brahmin_xing @ 7.249656
7 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 7.305646
8 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 7.989450
9 goan_harappa @ 8.075098
10 meghawal_reich @ 8.095234
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 8.159595
12 kerala-nair_harappa @ 8.586155
13 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.634916
14 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 8.716166
15 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 8.951887
16 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 9.116628
17 up_harappa @ 9.212049
18 ap-brahmin_xing @ 9.219221
19 gujarati_harappa @ 9.238842
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 9.507617

A less exotic kna sample ie more mainstream nasrani mix

Kerala Harappa seems to be a Syrian Christian

bmoney
11-07-2019, 01:55 AM
I didn't say it is excusively brahmin either

I think gangetic Kshatriya to lower caste is plausible given my uncle scores up kshatriya at no 2 on Harappa and my top match in lukasz eurogenes calc report after iyer is up kshatriya

Up Kshatriyas themselves score like some southern Brahmins but the latter seem to be more enriched with the local Iran n elite flavour

Y distribution in Nairs is more gangetic than gujarat r1a r2 h q vs j and L like gujarat and the toda

Censored
11-07-2019, 02:07 AM
I think gangetic Kshatriya to lower caste is plausible given my uncle scores up kshatriya at no 2 on Harappa and my top match in lukasz eurogenes calc report after iyer is up kshatriya

Up Kshatriyas themselves score like some southern Brahmins but the latter seem to be more enriched with the local Iran n elite flavour

Y distribution in Nairs are more gangetic than gujarat r1a r2 h q vs j and L like gujarat and the toda

Son, why aren't you posting in the southern section anymore?

bmoney
11-07-2019, 02:08 AM
Amateur anthropologists from other regions who think all of south India is the same do not understand that in south India ritually low yet wealthy and influential castes like Nairs and Syrian Christians exist who document their own history and also have Western anthropologist coverage in regions like central Kerala

Nambiars have no shortage of historical records given we were the largest landlords in northern Kerala and collectively we know we are not Brahmins and never were and tbh I have yet to see a live Nambudiri, they are that rare in our region. Often we man our own likely unvedic clandestine Hindu temples or use non Brahmins like Ambalavasis who probably have the same low to mid caste Gangetic origin

We do know we had a martial history and that the keralolpathi and Brahmin self-description of history matches almost exactly with both timelines, 2nd chera, and our background as low caste enforcers for Brahmins from the same original region (DNA matches) so Occam’s razor definitely favours this origin compared to to Brahmin harem products which mathematically is not possible as we have Brahmin samples with 5% ne euro and Nairs with higher than that

Also all Keralites inc Brahmins have local Thiyya Ezhava ‘base’ mix and plenty of communities of various mixes have become Nairs and Syrian Christians due to titleage of caste in the former and conversion/assimilation in the latter of Nairs Ezhava and Brahmins in some rare cases I’m sure

There are plenty of historical examples of soldiers and migrating communities in the south. The historical examples tipirneni mentions, Saurashtrians, Banjara, Baniya etc a non-elite is much more likely to migrate in search of wealth than an elite like a Brahmin and these communities have largely genetically and culturally assimilated locally over 100s of years like the UP Jatts speak the same language compared to a UP baniya from the same village despite dramatic genetic differences (this is an extreme genetic example, in the south the genetics are more subtle)

bmoney
11-07-2019, 02:26 AM
Son, why aren't you posting in the southern section anymore?

Most of the broad south Asian questions have been answered haven’t they?

Anything new the forum has figured out RE south asians?

I mostly get updates via eurogenes and razib

Btw is that new g25 tool poi’s work?

Censored
11-07-2019, 02:43 AM
Most of the broad south Asian questions have been answered haven’t they?

Anything new the forum has figured out RE south asians?

I mostly get updates via eurogenes and razib

Btw is that new g25 tool poi’s work?

oh. there was discussion about a paper that came out a few months ago but thats it.

And no i dont think its pois

vishankar
11-07-2019, 03:48 AM
Hi friends!...i just received the Y-12 results of my Bunt sample...from the given data he is Haplogoup H -mostly M-69 ,like my father in law!

BMG
11-10-2019, 01:50 PM
The Malayali muslim L1c belong to below subgroup
https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y31218/

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2019, 04:21 AM
https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%E2%80%99s%E2%80%99_time,_persecution _continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_beliefs_and_c laims_1.pdf

Someone compiled a list of Y-DNA and mtDNA of Knanaya people on 23andme. Note that some of the individuals are mixed and some aren’t kna at all.

Still no R2 :/ @aaronbee

Rustyshakelford
11-19-2019, 04:22 AM
......

BMG
11-20-2019, 10:57 AM
https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%E2%80%99s%E2%80%99_time,_persecution _continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_beliefs_and_c laims_1.pdf

Someone compiled a list of Y-DNA and mtDNA of Knanaya people on 23andme. Note that some of the individuals are mixed and some aren’t kna at all.

Still no R2 :/ @aaronbee
Knanaya mtdna is like 90% M33a2 9%U1a3 1% other

Ydna seem to be diverse with L-M357 and L-M27 topping the list . Among R1a there are 4 Y6 samples including the author but no Y7 . The G samples belong to G1 . The G among non knanaya Syrian Christians are G1(2 samples) or G-P303(1 sample) . The Q sub clade is L939 which is different from all the Q subclades found in Kerala . Closest is L933* elengical .There are three O samples O-Page23 and O-F8(which is under Page23) are subclades of O-M122 . O-B418 is under O-M95 .

BMG
11-20-2019, 10:59 AM
https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%E2%80%99s%E2%80%99_time,_persecution _continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_beliefs_and_c laims_1.pdf

Someone compiled a list of Y-DNA and mtDNA of Knanaya people on 23andme. Note that some of the individuals are mixed and some aren’t kna at all.

Still no R2 :/ @aaronbee

Do you have any R2 among your matches ?

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2019, 12:51 PM
Do you have any R2 among your matches ?

Nope not a single one. In the spreadsheet above there’s one individual listed as R-L266 but he’s labeled as “Trinidad mix” and it doesn’t clarify if he’s paternally kna.

Rustyshakelford
11-20-2019, 01:10 PM
Knanaya mtdna is like 90% M33a2 9%U1a3 1% other

Ydna seem to be diverse with L-M357 and L-M27 topping the list . Among R1a there are 4 Y6 samples including the author but no Y7 . The G samples belong to G1 . The G among non knanaya Syrian Christians are G1(2 samples) or G-P303(1 sample) . The Q sub clade is L939 which is different from all the Q subclades found in Kerala . Closest is L933* elengical .There are three O samples O-Page23 and O-F8(which is under Page23) are subclades of O-M122 . O-B418 is under O-M95 .
The Y-DNA pattern seems heavy on L and J but much less R1a compared to the non-Knanaya Syrian Christians. In its place we have more Q and surprisingly O. Never would have thought there are three different O subclades found among us. Even though my Harappa SI is relatively low I do score a decent amount of SE-asian and I’ve noticed this in some of the other Knanaya kits as well, wonder if it’s related to these O founders.
What can we make of the G and Q subclades?

BMG
11-20-2019, 04:50 PM
I think G1 and T are potential candidates for the west asian ancestral line . With L and J it is difficult to say without knowing exact subclade. Q in South Asia seems diverse and we do not have many who have tested. I think it is nothing unusual .

I forgot there was a G-M283 as well among Syrian Christians

aaronbee2010
11-20-2019, 05:47 PM
https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%E2%80%99s%E2%80%99_time,_persecution _continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_beliefs_and_c laims_1.pdf

Someone compiled a list of Y-DNA and mtDNA of Knanaya people on 23andme. Note that some of the individuals are mixed and some aren’t kna at all.

Still no R2 :/ @aaronbee

To be honest, it's only a list of relatives from one person on 23andMe. Looking at relatives from my own caste on 23andMe, I have one R-L266 relative and three R-L295 relatives (all tested with the v5 chip). I know your feels :(

If multiple Knanayas contribute to one pool of data, you might find your R2 one day :P


The Y-DNA pattern seems heavy on L and J but much less R1a compared to the non-Knanaya Syrian Christians. In its place we have more Q and surprisingly O. Never would have thought there are three different O subclades found among us. Even though my Harappa SI is relatively low I do score a decent amount of SE-asian and I’ve noticed this in some of the other Knanaya kits as well, wonder if it’s related to these O founders.
What can we make of the G and Q subclades?

What's interesting is that in Kerala, J2 isn't much more common than R2, but Knanayas having very low R2 levels appears to suggest a founder effect for them, where L and J2 levels grew and R2 levels lowered.

My caste has pretty decent levels of R2-L295 but other branches of R2 are rare, including mine.

I've even identified two clans in my caste, one with R2-L295 as their main line (but with some other assimilated lineages, which is expected as this is one of our biggest clans) and one smaller clan that has so far been found to exclusively come under R2-L295, although other lines could appear as more samples are discovered.

BMG
11-21-2019, 04:29 AM
Regarding the J subclades J-M68 is essentially south Asian and J-M241 can be westasian if it is L283 and south Asian if Z2432 . Someone has to test for the subclade . The is yemenite jew L283 at yfull and a few Syrian Christians from Thrissur and Ernakulam belong to J-Z628 which is under L283 . All the instances of J-M241 in non knanaya Syrian Christians so far belong to Z628 . The knanaya ones definitely do not belong to that particular subgroup by looking at the STR values . But somebody has to check to confirm .

BMG
11-21-2019, 04:42 AM
The Z628 sample further belong to below subgroup
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

Rustyshakelford
11-21-2019, 05:33 AM
Regarding the J subclades J-M68 is essentially south Asian and J-M241 can be westasian if it is L283 and south Asian if Z2432 . Someone has to test for the subclade . The is yemenite jew L283 at yfull and a few Syrian Christians from Thrissur and Ernakulam belong to J-Z628 which is under L283 . All the instances of J-M241 in non knanaya Syrian Christians so far belong to Z628 . The knanaya ones definitely do not belong to that particular subgroup by looking at the STR values . But somebody has to check to confirm .

What about J-L24 and J-L25? I noticed a few of those also. Where did you find the STRs are they available on the FTDNA page ?

BMG
11-21-2019, 09:59 AM
What about J-L24 and J-L25? I noticed a few of those also. Where did you find the STRs are they available on the FTDNA page ?
J-L24 can be middle eastern or south asian depending on the subclade . Among the Syrian Christians only the L243 subclade can be considered as of middle eastern origin and others seem to be rather south asian.
In the ftdna page kit no 134734 is a knanaya kit

Rustyshakelford
11-21-2019, 10:24 AM
J-L24 can be middle eastern or south asian depending on the subclade . Among the Syrian Christians only the L243 subclade can be considered as of middle eastern origin and others seem to be rather south asian.
In the ftdna page kit no 134734 is a knanaya kit

A relative of mine has tested as J-M319 does this fall into one of the above categories?

BMG
11-21-2019, 10:49 AM
A relative of mine has tested as J-M319 does this fall into one of the above categories?
No it doesn't . J-M319 is mostly from West Asia and South Europe . So it could be of recent outside origin

BMG
11-24-2019, 10:19 AM
Nair results - Nair family from kuttipuram

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.38
2 Baloch 36.82
3 Caucasian 5.06
4 NE-Euro 3.7
5 SW-Asian 3.36
6 Siberian 1.29
7 Beringian 1.12
8 Papuan 0.39
9 Pygmy 0.35
10 American 0.3
11 W-African 0.22

Her mtdna in U4a

BMG
11-24-2019, 11:29 AM
Another Nair R1a-Y7 M2b1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.44
2 Baloch 38.33
3 Caucasian 7.35
4 NE-Asian 1.68
5 SW-Asian 1.49
6 Beringian 1.07
7 NE-Euro 1.01
8 Mediterranean 0.75
9 American 0.28
10 Siberian 0.26
11 W-African 0.21
12 Papuan 0.13

Malayali L1a-M27 U1a3
Population Percent
1 S-Indian 49.55
2 Baloch 34.08
3 Caucasian 6.73
4 SE-Asian 2.81
5 NE-Euro 2.33
6 SW-Asian 1.69
7 Siberian 1.5
8 NE-Asian 1.04
9 American 0.22
10 Mediterranean 0.05

BMG
11-24-2019, 11:46 AM
Menon

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.27
2 Baloch 33.75
3 Caucasian 8.82
4 SW-Asian 3.09
5 NE-Euro 3.04
6 Papuan 1.98
7 San 1.5
8 SE-Asian 0.94
9 Siberian 0.9
10 American 0.49
11 Beringian 0.14
12 E-African 0.09

BMG
11-26-2019, 03:20 AM
A relative of mine has tested as J-M319 does this fall into one of the above categories?

J-M319 is found in ancient minoans .
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/y-snp-calls-for-minoans-and-mycenaeans/

vishankar
11-28-2019, 02:51 AM
kerala nair from palakkad-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 58.61
2 Baloch 30.68
3 SE-Asian 2.2
4 SW-Asian 1.9
5 Papuan 1.73
6 Mediterranean 1.42
7 W-African 1.24
8 NE-Asian 1.19
9 Siberian 0.6
10 Beringian 0.43

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 tamil-nadar (harappa) 2.73
2 dusadh (metspalu) 3.2
3 sinhalese (harappa) 3.63
4 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 3.64
5 tamil-vellalar (harappa) 4
6 lodi (reich) 4.08
7 naidu (reich) 4.1
8 singapore-indian-a (sgvp) 4.14
9 kurumba (metspalu) 4.18
10 up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 4.5
11 kol (metspalu) 4.64
12 piramalai-kallar (metspalu) 4.92
13 hallaki (reich) 5.51
14 vysya (reich) 6
15 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 6.05
16 karnataka (harappa) 6.18
17 velama (metspalu) 6.93
18 velama (reich) 7.09
19 tharu (metspalu) 7.31
20 kanjar (metspalu) 7.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98.4% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.6% fulani (henn2012) @ 2.36
2 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% yoruba (1000genomes) @ 2.41
3 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% dogon (xing) @ 2.41
4 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% bambaran (xing) @ 2.41
5 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% african-caribbean (1000genomes) @ 2.41
6 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% brong (henn2012) @ 2.41
7 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% igbo (henn2012) @ 2.42
8 98.7% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.3% african-american (1000genomes) @ 2.42
9 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% mandenka (hgdp) @ 2.42
10 98.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.1% hausa (henn2012) @ 2.42
11 98.4% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.6% morocco-s (henn2012) @ 2.42
12 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% bamoun (henn2012) @ 2.42
13 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% kongo (henn2012) @ 2.43
14 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% fang (henn2012) @ 2.44
15 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% kaba (henn2012) @ 2.44
16 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% bantusouthafrica (hgdp) @ 2.47
17 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% pedi (xing) @ 2.47
18 98.8% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.2% nguni (xing) @ 2.47
19 63.9% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 36.1% dusadh (metspalu) @ 2.48
20 98.3% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 1.7% siddi (reich) @ 2.48

vishankar
11-28-2019, 02:52 AM
the most ASI shifted nair i have seen....gave me a history of having vilakithilla nairs( nairs who perform the tonsuring function) as one of his relatives..

vishankar
11-28-2019, 05:20 PM
and now, for the first woman in my life)))
my mom's result!

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.33
2 Baloch 37.37
3 Caucasian 6.11
4 NE-Euro 5.76
5 Beringian 1.95
6 Papuan 1.13


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.693453
2 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 2.723293
3 maharashtrian_harappa @ 2.820487
4 meghawal_reich @ 2.861290
5 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 2.989951
6 gujarati_harappa @ 3.181061
7 goan_harappa @ 3.374932
8 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.553251
9 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 3.943249
10 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.100727
11 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 4.324140
12 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.566823
13 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 4.696203
14 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.803999
15 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 5.671856
16 kerala-christian_harappa @ 6.205321
17 vaish_reich @ 6.295721
18 up_harappa @ 6.526339
19 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 6.635822
20 kerala-brahmin_harappa @ 6.845340

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% punjabi-brahmin_harappa +50% tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 2.104701


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% goan_harappa +25% meghawal_metspalu +25% up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.923476


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_hapmap + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-khatri_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.839897
2 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.852996
3 goan_harappa + gujarati-b_hapmap + punjabi-khatri_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.856928
4 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.875586
5 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + madiga_reich + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.877855
6 gujarati-a_hapmap + punjabi-khatri_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.891877
7 gujarati-a_hapmap + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-khatri_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.897486
8 goan_harappa + gujarati-b_hapmap + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 1.913193
9 gujarati-patel_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-khatri_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.919282
10 goan_harappa + gujarati_harappa + punjabi-khatri_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.920212
11 goan_harappa + goan_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.923476
12 gujarati-patel_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-khatri_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.929812
13 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + kamsali_reich @ 1.933711
14 goan_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-brahmin_harappa + singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 1.935200
15 karnataka_harappa + punjabi-brahmin_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa + velama_reich @ 1.938249
16 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + sakilli_chaubey + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.939863
17 goan_harappa + goan_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.945429
18 kurmi_metspalu + punjabi-brahmin_harappa + punjabi-brahmin_harappa + vysya_reich @ 1.946060
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + punjabi-khatri_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.946100
20 goan_harappa + goan_harappa + rajasthani_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.946383

Done.

Elapsed time 4.9422 seconds.

vishankar
11-28-2019, 05:24 PM
this was very surprising,,... as the recent history of nambudiri admixture is not there , unlike my father whose grandpa was a nambudiri, my mom's family has its root in cherthala/allapuzha with connection to madoms- brahmin agrahara type settlements....and a vague tulu brahmin( embran ) connection!
PS- one of her matches on family tree DNA is Adiga- Tulu Shivalli brahmin!

tipirneni
11-28-2019, 05:35 PM
this was very surprising,,... as the recent history of nambudiri admixture is not there , unlike my father whose grandpa was a nambudiri, my mom's family has its root in cherthala/allapuzha with connection to madoms- brahmin agrahara type settlements....and a vague tulu brahmin( embran ) connection!
PS- one of her matches on family tree DNA is Adiga- Tulu Shivalli brahmin!

Some of then look very pure & unmixed like right from UP

BMG
12-01-2019, 06:33 AM
My non Syrian Christian south asian matches at gedmatch within 6.00 generations .
Pakistani Punjabi Muslim at 4.74
Pakistani Punjabi Muslim at 5.07
Tulu Brahmin at 5.19
Kerala Nair at 5.20
Konkani Brahmin at 5.23
Kerala Brahmin at 5.32
Kerala Muslim at 5.71

BMG
12-01-2019, 07:24 AM
In understanding the Syrian Christian community origins i had speculated who are the people adopted Christianity during the earlier centuries . The earliest Christians of Kerala would be prior to the second cheras .
The first people they could have encountered are the vanik groups in the port towns and main inland towns .Who are these vanik groups ? One of the possibility is that they are baniya like people who bought along their jain religion to south india . The other possibility is that they are elite among the rich farming communities during those days who were vellala like .

These vanik groups have vanished from Kerala . But similar communities have persisted in other south indian states . So the possibility of these vaniks to have converted to Christianity and later to Islam . We have to note the Mangalore Muslims are called Byari which is shortened form of Vyapari ( which means trader) . In the later centuries these Muslims and Christian population filled the vaccum of baniya like population .

The second group who could have encountered these early Christian missionaries are the farmers who I presume to be vellala like population who were involved in wetland rice farming . They could have been following early Dravidian hindu customs with considerable influence of Buddhism in some pockets . The Tamil vellalars are genetically similar to Syrian Christians who i think was a Dravidian elite . ( These people lack steppe but often have high Baloch+ Caucasian in harappaworld . )

BMG
12-03-2019, 05:12 PM
My non Syrian Christian south asian matches at gedmatch within 6.00 generations .
Pakistani Punjabi Muslim at 4.74
Pakistani Punjabi Muslim at 5.07
Tulu Brahmin at 5.19
Kerala Nair at 5.20
Konkani Brahmin at 5.23
Kerala Brahmin at 5.32
Kerala Muslim at 5.71

For Comparison i have taken 3 more kits . Again lots of syrian christian matches but less other matches

Vaidyan
Konkani Christian 5.56
Tamil Vellalar 5.62
SI Brahmin 5.95

Muthalaly
Tyagi(NI brahmin) 5.33
Singh(Rajput?) 5.49
Sikh Punjabi 5.56
Sharma(NI brahmin)-5.85

Panicker
Pakistani Punjabi Muslim 5.20
South Indian Hindu 5.52
Bengali Muslim 5.55

I have also taken 3 hindu nair kits

Nair Kit 1 - South

Nair 4.47
Tamil Brahmin 4.82
Nair 4.85
Tamil Brahmin 5.02
Tamil Brahmin 5.15
64% SI Kit - 5.21
Kerala Brahmin 5.37
Sikh Punjabi - 5.86

No Syrian Christian match at below 6.00 gen

Nair Kit 2 - Central
Half British/Indian 5.19
Syrian Christian 5.55
NI Muslim 5.80

Nair Kit 3 - North
Malayali 4.60
SI Brahmin 4.73
Konkani Christian 5.09
NI Muslim 5.53
Syrian Christian 5.63
South Indian Christian - 5.95

The 2 kerala brahmin kits seems to have lot of matches . I don't know why .So limited the matches to 5.20

Kerala Brahmin 1

Half Kerala Nair -4.27
Syrian Christian 4.77
Poduval 4.78
Nair 4.84
Nair 5.10
Bengali Brahmin 5.13
Konkani Brahmin 5.14
Syrian Christian 5.14
Nair 5.15
Nair 5.18
Punjabi Sikh 5.18
Tamil Brahmin 5.18

Kerala Brahmin 2

Kerala Brahmin 3.45
Kerala Brahmin 3.61
Nair 3.76
Nair 4.21
Poduval 4.26
Poduval 4.37
Nair?? 4.42
Poduval 4.42
Nair 4.66
Bhat 4.66
Syrian Christian 4.82
Nair 4.93
SI Brahmin(Rao) 5.00
Poduval 5.07
Poduval 5.08
Kerala Brahmin 5.12
NI Muslim 5.16

2nd kit and all his Poduval and Kerala Brahmin matches are uploaded by our doctor . Are all the poduvals related ?

BMG
12-03-2019, 05:31 PM
These are already posted in this thread by vishankar but i thought all the nambudiri and poduval kit harappa results in 1 post will be easier

Kerala Brahmin 1

1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Kerala Brahmin 2

1 S-Indian 46.23
2 Baloch 35.18
3 Caucasian 5.51
4 NE-Euro 4.99
5 American 2.75
6 SW-Asian 2.24
7 SE-Asian 1.31
8 Mediterranean 0.72
9 Papuan 0.51
10 Siberian 0.45
11 E-African 0.11

Kerala Brahmin 3

1 S-Indian 44.73
2 Baloch 35.3
3 Caucasian 7.85
4 NE-Euro 7.64
5 NE-Asian 1.97
6 Papuan 0.81
7 American 0.55
8 Beringian 0.42
9 SW-Asian 0.39
10 E-African 0.34

Kerala Brahmin 4

1 S-Indian 46.51
2 Baloch 34.05
3 Caucasian 9.19
4 NE-Euro 6.77
5 Beringian 1.47
6 Siberian 0.93
7 American 0.64
8 NE-Asian 0.38
9 SW-Asian 0.05

Kerala Brahmin 5

1 S-Indian 44.42
2 Baloch 37.25
3 Caucasian 8.26
4 NE-Euro 6.89
5 SE-Asian 1.37
6 Papuan 0.51
7 American 0.4
8 Beringian 0.28
9 NE-Asian 0.25
10 Siberian 0.17
11 San 0.15
12 SW-Asian 0.05


Poduval 1

1 S-Indian 44.7
2 Baloch 37.23
3 Caucasian 8.16
4 NE-Euro 3.03
5 Mediterranean 2.01
6 Siberian 1.94
7 Papuan 1.42
8 SE-Asian 1.19
9 NE-Asian 0.23
10 Pygmy 0.08

Poduval 2

1 S-Indian 48.56
2 Baloch 34.01
3 Caucasian 6.44
4 NE-Euro 5.51
5 Siberian 2.4
6 SW-Asian 1.2
7 NE-Asian 1.13
8 Mediterranean 0.62
9 Pygmy 0.15

Poduval 3

1 S-Indian 45.52
2 Baloch 35.17
3 Caucasian 6.08
4 Mediterranean 3.45
5 NE-Euro 2.04
6 SW-Asian 2.02
7 Papuan 1.48
8 American 1.33
9 Siberian 1.32
10 W-African 0.98
11 SE-Asian 0.61

Poduval 4

1 S-Indian 46.85
2 Baloch 31.68
3 Caucasian 9.15
4 NE-Euro 4.73
5 SW-Asian 3.53
6 SE-Asian 1.67
7 Papuan 0.88
8 Beringian 0.77
9 San 0.44
10 American 0.18
11 W-African 0.11

Poduval 5

1 S-Indian 45.45
2 Baloch 37.44
3 NE-Euro 7
4 Caucasian 4.71
5 Siberian 2.02
6 SE-Asian 1.54
7 SW-Asian 1.46
8 W-African 0.29
9 Beringian 0.08

vishankar
12-03-2019, 06:30 PM
These are already posted in this thread by vishankar but i thought all the nambudiri and poduval kit harappa results in 1 post will be easier

Kerala Brahmin 1

1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Kerala Brahmin 2

1 S-Indian 46.23
2 Baloch 35.18
3 Caucasian 5.51
4 NE-Euro 4.99
5 American 2.75
6 SW-Asian 2.24
7 SE-Asian 1.31
8 Mediterranean 0.72
9 Papuan 0.51
10 Siberian 0.45
11 E-African 0.11

Kerala Brahmin 3

1 S-Indian 44.73
2 Baloch 35.3
3 Caucasian 7.85
4 NE-Euro 7.64
5 NE-Asian 1.97
6 Papuan 0.81
7 American 0.55
8 Beringian 0.42
9 SW-Asian 0.39
10 E-African 0.34

Kerala Brahmin 4

1 S-Indian 46.51
2 Baloch 34.05
3 Caucasian 9.19
4 NE-Euro 6.77
5 Beringian 1.47
6 Siberian 0.93
7 American 0.64
8 NE-Asian 0.38
9 SW-Asian 0.05

Kerala Brahmin 5

1 S-Indian 44.42
2 Baloch 37.25
3 Caucasian 8.26
4 NE-Euro 6.89
5 SE-Asian 1.37
6 Papuan 0.51
7 American 0.4
8 Beringian 0.28
9 NE-Asian 0.25
10 Siberian 0.17
11 San 0.15
12 SW-Asian 0.05


Poduval 1

1 S-Indian 44.7
2 Baloch 37.23
3 Caucasian 8.16
4 NE-Euro 3.03
5 Mediterranean 2.01
6 Siberian 1.94
7 Papuan 1.42
8 SE-Asian 1.19
9 NE-Asian 0.23
10 Pygmy 0.08

Poduval 2

1 S-Indian 48.56
2 Baloch 34.01
3 Caucasian 6.44
4 NE-Euro 5.51
5 Siberian 2.4
6 SW-Asian 1.2
7 NE-Asian 1.13
8 Mediterranean 0.62
9 Pygmy 0.15

Poduval 3

1 S-Indian 45.52
2 Baloch 35.17
3 Caucasian 6.08
4 Mediterranean 3.45
5 NE-Euro 2.04
6 SW-Asian 2.02
7 Papuan 1.48
8 American 1.33
9 Siberian 1.32
10 W-African 0.98
11 SE-Asian 0.61

Poduval 4

1 S-Indian 46.85
2 Baloch 31.68
3 Caucasian 9.15
4 NE-Euro 4.73
5 SW-Asian 3.53
6 SE-Asian 1.67
7 Papuan 0.88
8 Beringian 0.77
9 San 0.44
10 American 0.18
11 W-African 0.11

Poduval 5

1 S-Indian 45.45
2 Baloch 37.44
3 NE-Euro 7
4 Caucasian 4.71
5 Siberian 2.02
6 SE-Asian 1.54
7 SW-Asian 1.46
8 W-African 0.29
9 Beringian 0.08

dear BMG,
the poduvals are heavily inbred( i a m planning to write abook on them)....intermarriage till recently with only nambudiris or poduvals....

tipirneni
12-04-2019, 03:35 AM
What do you mean by 'pure' and how are you able to tell? I don't know if many Palakkad Iyers are descended from "Vadamas" who are the most recent Northern migrants.
Vidya Balan, Trisha Krishnan, Shankar Mahadevan, Adah Sharma are some famous/semi-famous personalities.
There aren't any really dark looking or different caste looking Palakkad Iyers. Iyers especially are used to multiple wives from different castes in the past. It might not have happened among Palakkad Iyers

parasar
12-04-2019, 04:07 PM
I have relatives that are Palghat/Palakkad Iyers - Malayalam and Tamil speaking.

From Chattapuram agrahar in the Kalpathy area.

chekkan
12-21-2019, 09:06 PM
I have seen many discussions about the Knanaya people. Is the practice of endogamy is going to hurt the community? I haven't seen many genetic problems. Can DNA tests prove conversion? Do Knanaya people relate to high caste Hindus or Hindus in general? I know they have South Asian.

tipirneni
12-26-2019, 07:37 PM
I have seen many discussions about the Knanaya people. Is the practice of endogamy is going to hurt the community? I haven't seen many genetic problems. Can DNA tests prove conversion? Do Knanaya people relate to high caste Hindus or Hindus in general? I know they have South Asian.

Knanay people might have been originally servants supplied by the Ay/Yadu kings & their offsprings with the Syrian/Arab merchants since we know there is mtDNA bottleneck of high U1 etc... Ancient times Kerala had vast sea trade at Pattanam carried out by these kings with foreign power. Slowly these trade quarters built by the king might have seen prosperity & over the time new class of people supporting this trade emerged.
https://www.muzirisheritage.org/images/pattanam-gal-001.jpg

https://www.muzirisheritage.org/pattanam.php

Rustyshakelford
12-27-2019, 04:25 AM
Knanay people might have been originally servants supplied by the Ay/Yadu kings & their offsprings with the Syrian/Arab merchants since we know there is mtDNA bottleneck of high U1 etc... Ancient times Kerala had vast sea trade at Pattanam carried out by these kings with foreign power. Slowly these trade quarters built by the king might have seen prosperity & over the time new class of people supporting this trade emerged.
https://www.muzirisheritage.org/images/pattanam-gal-001.jpg

https://www.muzirisheritage.org/pattanam.php

Lol why are all deviations from the norm automatically ascribed to concubinage and ancient harems?

tipirneni
12-27-2019, 01:08 PM
Lol why are all deviations from the norm automatically ascribed to concubinage and ancient harems?
It is not about deviations. It is about the vastness of the ancient trade & huge infrastructure provided by the Indian Kings to sustain it that shows up in the archaeological investigations
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/aug/10/lost-cities-3-muziris-india-kerala-ancient-port-black-pepper
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b224d2cd693bbe591fc9a52ac4e4eeac1074a88f/0_0_1288_930/master/1288.jpg?width=860&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

The Roman author Pliny, in his Natural History, called Muziris “the first emporium of India”. The city appears prominently on the Tabula Peutingeriana, a fifth-century map of the world as seen from Rome.

Rustyshakelford
12-27-2019, 11:00 PM
It is not about deviations. It is about the vastness of the ancient trade & huge infrastructure provided by the Indian Kings to sustain it that shows up in the archaeological investigations
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/aug/10/lost-cities-3-muziris-india-kerala-ancient-port-black-pepper
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b224d2cd693bbe591fc9a52ac4e4eeac1074a88f/0_0_1288_930/master/1288.jpg?width=860&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

The Roman author Pliny, in his Natural History, called Muziris “the first emporium of India”. The city appears prominently on the Tabula Peutingeriana, a fifth-century map of the world as seen from Rome.

How are you able to imply the social context of these interactions or the origin of specific groups?

tipirneni
12-27-2019, 11:37 PM
How are you able to imply the social context of these interactions or the origin of specific groups?

The scope of that is a big historical text which requires more study of the excavations & interactions of specific groups within these trading ports. I haven't seen any one interested in doing so. There are few academic historians like Cherian but they are way behind in these things to elucidate the society interactions of ancient time

https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/all_current_projects/indian_ocean_trade.aspx

BMG
12-28-2019, 02:59 AM
The scope of that is a big historical text which requires more study of the excavations & interactions of specific groups within these trading ports. I haven't seen any one interested in doing so. There are few academic historians like Cherian but they are way behind in these things to elucidate the society interactions of ancient time

https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/all_current_projects/indian_ocean_trade.aspx

Reply to his question please

tipirneni
12-28-2019, 04:22 AM
Reply to his question please
There is a big research spending by Govt of Kerala. More than 50 full time and many part-time person working on it. If you guys need answer go ask those expert. But since it is a govt organization with many international collaboration, even if some of the analyzed information is not palatable for few top level managers so not published, it is already out in international circles.
1, http://kchr.ac.in/articles/87/Pattanam-Archaeological-Research.html
2, http://basas.org.uk/research-groups/ports-and-ocean-exchanges/

there are noises over this already. But looking at the papers look like a white wash even though the experts from Oxford and Durham univ are already there on the panel. Sooner or less it is gonna come out in international papers on the low quality and political bias of the directors on this subject where norms for elucidating scientific knowledge not done properly

1,
https://pattanam-muziris-pattanam.blogspot.com/2011/10/why-pjcherian-imports-experts-from.html

2,
St.Thomas and Pattanam Church man makes newer frauds
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/213272/kerala-artists-oppose-international-festival.html

Binale Festival Aimed to Internationally Market Pattanam Archaeology Meet Strong Resistance
Kerala artists oppose international festival
Thiruvananthapuram, Dec 20, DHNS
Around 25 leading artists from the state, including Kanai Kunhuraman and C L Porinjukkutty, alleged at a press conference here on Tuesday that norms are being violated to facilitate the event. No Kerala-based artist will be participating in the event, they said. The Rs 75-crore government aid promised for the event organised by a private trust violates all norms. The dissidents demanded a govern

BMG
12-28-2019, 06:01 AM
There is a big research spending by Govt of Kerala. More than 50 full time and many part-time person working on it. If you guys need answer go ask those expert. But since it is a govt organization with many international collaboration, even if some of the analyzed information is not palatable for few top level managers so not published, it is already out in international circles.
1, http://kchr.ac.in/articles/87/Pattanam-Archaeological-Research.html
2, http://basas.org.uk/research-groups/ports-and-ocean-exchanges/

there are noises over this already. But looking at the papers look like a white wash even though the experts from Oxford and Durham univ are already there on the panel. Sooner or less it is gonna come out in international papers on the low quality and political bias of the directors on this subject where norms for elucidating scientific knowledge not done properly

1,
https://pattanam-muziris-pattanam.blogspot.com/2011/10/why-pjcherian-imports-experts-from.html

2,
St.Thomas and Pattanam Church man makes newer frauds
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/213272/kerala-artists-oppose-international-festival.html

Binale Festival Aimed to Internationally Market Pattanam Archaeology Meet Strong Resistance
Kerala artists oppose international festival
Thiruvananthapuram, Dec 20, DHNS
Around 25 leading artists from the state, including Kanai Kunhuraman and C L Porinjukkutty, alleged at a press conference here on Tuesday that norms are being violated to facilitate the event. No Kerala-based artist will be participating in the event, they said. The Rs 75-crore government aid promised for the event organised by a private trust violates all norms. The dissidents demanded a govern

The question was why you came to the conclusion in post#1611. Only you can answer it because you are the one who said it ? You are inferring too many things with little to no data .So what you post sounds more like fantasy .

tipirneni
12-28-2019, 12:28 PM
The question was why you came to the conclusion in post#1611. Only you can answer it because you are the one who said it ? You are inferring too many things with little to no data .So what you post sounds more like fantasy .

There is a highlevel conspiracy to take over public data and whitewash it for petty politics for small group of people. when you guys using huge govt infrastructure for private purpose why should I come with pleasant whitewashed conclusions that is floating around. I don't want to fuel the whims and fantasy of small group of people where the govt money is already being misused without oversight.


That's why I said go ask those 100 people drawing monthly salaries from public money. Why should I reveal my sources when historical altruistic activities benefiting society are not being recognized by small sections of people.

Also regarding fantasy show me any instance of caste or subcaste taking over state historical boards for their own petty politics other than happened in Kerala. Why should poor country support 100 historical people for whitewashing some historical event so small group of people are shown as messiahs when there is no such support for public emergencies like flooding or aid etc..

BMG
12-28-2019, 01:06 PM
There is a highlevel conspiracy to take over public data and whitewash it for petty politics for small group of people. when you guys using huge govt infrastructure for private purpose why should I come with pleasant whitewashed conclusions that is floating around. I don't want to fuel the whims and fantasy of small group of people where the govt money is already being misused without oversight.


That's why I said go ask those 100 people drawing monthly salaries from public money. Why should I reveal my sources when historical altruistic activities benefiting society are not being recognized by small sections of people.

Also regarding fantasy show me any instance of caste or subcaste taking over state historical boards for their own petty politics other than happened in Kerala. Why should poor country support 100 historical people for whitewashing some historical event so small group of people are shown as messiahs when there is no such support for public emergencies like flooding or aid etc..

I can't ask anybody else about things you have said . You make some ridiculous claim and when questioned you are telling me ask somebody else and you can't share your sources etc . I don't understand the logic here .

Also i can't make head or tail of the conspiracy theory you are talking about or how is it even related to what i have asked . I request you not to post any nonsense . If you have any valid point please convey it in a concise and precise manner so people can understand what you are pointing out .

Rustyshakelford
12-28-2019, 07:02 PM
I can't ask anybody else about things you have said . You make some ridiculous claim and when questioned you are telling me ask somebody else and you can't share your sources etc . I don't understand the logic here .

Also i can't make head or tail of the conspiracy theory you are talking about or how is it even related to what i have asked . I request you not to post any nonsense . If you have any valid point please convey it in a concise and precise manner so people can understand what you are pointing out .

This is his usual routine nothing out of the ordinary. We’ve seen this on many threads before

1) make strange claims
2) post a flurry of hyperlinks that in no way prove his claim
3) if pressed for clarification either deflect or allude to some conspiracy theory
4) rinse repeat

BMG
12-29-2019, 04:39 AM
I am all for different opinions whether right or wrong even an absurd one . But if you put forth a hypothesis you should be able to explain the rationale behind it .

And one should refrain from presenting their hypothesis as a fact however right it may be unless it is already accepted. If you do that other people reading this forum will be misguided inadvertently.

When people start posting nonsense without any proof the overall quality of the forum will go down .

pegasus
12-29-2019, 05:25 AM
Knanay people might have been originally servants supplied by the Ay/Yadu kings & their offsprings with the Syrian/Arab merchants since we know there is mtDNA bottleneck of high U1 etc... Ancient times Kerala had vast sea trade at Pattanam carried out by these kings with foreign power. Slowly these trade quarters built by the king might have seen prosperity & over the time new class of people supporting this trade emerged.
https://www.muzirisheritage.org/images/pattanam-gal-001.jpg

https://www.muzirisheritage.org/pattanam.php

LOL where in the world did you get that idea ?? Most of these Knanya people fall in the realm of Rumi/Greek Orthodoxy during sustained contact with the Byzantine world not with Classical Romans who are not even Christians , nor were Levantines and Arabs at that time. Are you insinuating that this community was born out of sex slavery to reinforce trade relations ?? That would not make sense at all given the locals on the Malabar coast had the upper hand, it was a bottomless market and the demand for Indian spices and other goods was immeasurable both in the Roman period and later ones. The picture you posted of olive oil and wine amphora was pretty worthless to locals and they demanded gold and amassed an enormous amount of it.

From what I recall and I will look at their Nmonte later but the Knanya from priest families had more Near Eastern ancestry, that does not gel with your theory at all. Also they are not some hybrid population via sexual servitude, rather a local population which accrued minor Near Eastern ancestry .

tipirneni
12-29-2019, 03:38 PM
LOL where in the world did you get that idea ?? Most of these Knanya people fall in the realm of Rumi/Greek Orthodoxy during sustained contact with the Byzantine world not with Classical Romans who are not even Christians , nor were Levantines and Arabs at that time. Are you insinuating that this community was born out of sex slavery to reinforce trade relations ?? That would not make sense at all given the locals on the Malabar coast had the upper hand, it was a bottomless market and the demand for Indian spices and other goods was immeasurable both in the Roman period and later ones. The picture you posted of olive oil and wine amphora was pretty worthless to locals and they demanded gold and amassed an enormous amount of it.

From what I recall and I will look at their Nmonte later but the Knanya from priest families had more Near Eastern ancestry, that does not gel with your theory at all. Also they are not some hybrid population via sexual servitude, rather a local population which accrued minor Near Eastern ancestry .
https://newindian.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=134804&p=3&topicID=65187961

Archaeology as a tool for evangelization and balkanization of India

In an interview to Malayalam weekly Madhyamam on October 15, 2018, Prof. Vasanth Shinde, veteran archaeologist and Vice Chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, premier institution of archaeological research in India, has dismissed excavations carried out at Pattanam in Kerala by Kerala Council of Historical Research as “dubious”.
Experts pointed out that the methodology used was dubious and reports false. Its links with questionable Church organizations in India and abroad and funding thereof had raised many eyebrows in the academic circles.


Many fringe groups spending unimaginable amount of money & unethical methods with dubious analysis to claim their supposed priestly ancestry

tipirneni
12-29-2019, 03:55 PM
Fansy statement from a church claiming St Thomas started the civilization in Pattanam so implying the DNA & civilization started from the ship route. Whereas the analysis of most members reveal underlying Kuruman/Yakka like autosome bottleneck who were the main soldier/servent population for the Ay/Yadu kings of the Kerala.

http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/images/lrc_text.gif

tipirneni
12-29-2019, 04:33 PM
http://www.nationalmuseumindia.gov.in/pdfs/pattanam-catalogue-masterlayout-05122014.pdf
Fansy catalog produced after spending Millions of dollars money supposed to go for urban planning & food aid found out there were some Jain marks on the port but didn't find any evidence of St Thomas on the port. The pottery found was distinct from that of the Keezadhi site of Tamil Urban civilization. ASI suspended KCHR license in 2015 to excavate the area since it had allegations of church politicizing the issue to make statements for its self propaganda

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/history-lost-twice-muziris-excavations-in-kerala-s-pattanam-face-right-wing-wrath/story-or4fnlWRmNZXxeR8VsYQqN.html

Rustyshakelford
12-30-2019, 01:27 AM
https://newindian.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=134804&p=3&topicID=65187961

Archaeology as a tool for evangelization and balkanization of India

In an interview to Malayalam weekly Madhyamam on October 15, 2018, Prof. Vasanth Shinde, veteran archaeologist and Vice Chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, premier institution of archaeological research in India, has dismissed excavations carried out at Pattanam in Kerala by Kerala Council of Historical Research as “dubious”.
Experts pointed out that the methodology used was dubious and reports false. Its links with questionable Church organizations in India and abroad and funding thereof had raised many eyebrows in the academic circles.


Many fringe groups spending unimaginable amount of money & unethical methods with dubious analysis to claim their supposed priestly ancestry

some quotes from the article you linked:

The CPI(M) which launched Pattanam has openly supported Amarnath Ramakrishna who supervised Keezhadi which shows how the notorious nexus between Church and Left historians. It is alleged that Amarnath submitted a favourable report for Pattanam excavations.


There are serious allegations that the linking of these Tamil Nadu sites with Pattanam is designed to provide a Dravidian Christian identity for Southern India and help the Church raise political claims. The Left historians have always been the aggressive promoters of the Aryan-Dravidian binary. They propagated the theory of British linguists Francis Ellis and Alexander Campbell that South Indian languages fell into a different category far removed from the Aryan languages.

Well now that we have an idea of your political leanings your previous posts suddenly make a lot more sense. Its a shame that you're out here spreading ultra-nationalist conspiracy theories.

BMG
12-30-2019, 04:30 PM
Fansy statement from a church claiming St Thomas started the civilization in Pattanam so implying the DNA & civilization started from the ship route. Whereas the analysis of most members reveal underlying Kuruman/Yakka like autosome bottleneck who were the main soldier/servent population for the Ay/Yadu kings of the Kerala.

http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/images/lrc_text.gif

The bolded statement is actually not there in the news article you attached . Do not put deliberate misleading statements.

BMG
12-30-2019, 04:49 PM
https://newindian.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=134804&p=3&topicID=65187961

Archaeology as a tool for evangelization and balkanization of India

In an interview to Malayalam weekly Madhyamam on October 15, 2018, Prof. Vasanth Shinde, veteran archaeologist and Vice Chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, premier institution of archaeological research in India, has dismissed excavations carried out at Pattanam in Kerala by Kerala Council of Historical Research as “dubious”.
Experts pointed out that the methodology used was dubious and reports false. Its links with questionable Church organizations in India and abroad and funding thereof had raised many eyebrows in the academic circles.


Many fringe groups spending unimaginable amount of money & unethical methods with dubious analysis to claim their supposed priestly ancestry

Conspiracy theory hatched by politically motivated people .

Kulin
12-31-2019, 12:21 AM
Just a reminder for everyone to stick to the topic of y dna from kerala and to refrain from needless arguements.

Thomas48
01-04-2020, 04:38 AM
Knanay people might have been originally servants supplied by the Ay/Yadu kings & their offsprings with the Syrian/Arab merchants since we know there is mtDNA bottleneck of high U1 etc... Ancient times Kerala had vast sea trade at Pattanam carried out by these kings with foreign power. Slowly these trade quarters built by the king might have seen prosperity & over the time new class of people supporting this trade emerged.
https://www.muzirisheritage.org/images/pattanam-gal-001.jpg

https://www.muzirisheritage.org/pattanam.php

No need to put stock into conspiracy theories. From the data we’ve compiled here and the most likely origins based on history, Knanaya and other Syrian Christians in all likelihood are the descendants of Middle Eastern Christian merchants and the people they admixed with and converted who centered around the spice-trading city centers of Cranganore and Kollam. The people still use blended Syriac in their common Malayalam parlance and of course in their liturgies. Their culture , history, and now genetics all seem to suggest this most probable origin as the descendants of Middle Eastern merchants which is extremely probable when considering Kerala’s position as the leading world spice hub.

Thomas48
01-18-2020, 05:45 PM
Sample of a Syrian Christian family who claim descent from the Mar Sapor/Proth Migration 9th Century:

Family Finder:

Central/South Asian 93%
Middle Eastern: Asia Minor 4%

Trace Results:

East Central Africa < 1%
Sephardic < 1%
Oceania < 1%
North and Central America < 1%
West Middle East < 1%

Y-DNA:
H-M69

vishankar
01-24-2020, 08:34 AM
posting a kerala maniyani( yadava) lady's harappa score and oracles-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.45
2 Baloch 36.02
3 Caucasian 7.33
4 NE-Euro 2.50
5 Mediterranean 2.18
6 Beringian 1.29
7 American 1.19
8 Papuan 1.10
9 SW-Asian 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tn-brahmin_xing @ 3.807381
2 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.201227
3 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.435697
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.672824
5 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.674590
6 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.793781
7 goan_harappa @ 4.797945
8 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.024075
9 meghawal_reich @ 5.093552
10 kerala_harappa @ 5.106095
11 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.665808
12 gujarati_harappa @ 5.679139
13 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.766735
14 ap-brahmin_xing @ 6.115019
15 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 6.508644
16 up_harappa @ 6.723506
17 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.785043
18 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 6.934909
19 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 6.976820
20 cochin-jew_behar @ 7.725198

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% hallaki_reich +50% punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.617840


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-muslim_harappa +25% gujarati-patel_harappa +25% hallaki_reich @ 1.991805


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + kalash_hgdp @ 1.936872
2 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.952001
3 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 1.958261
4 ap-hyderabad_harappa + cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 1.974807
5 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 1.975180
6 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.978163
7 bene-israel-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + meena_metspalu + singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 1.990479
8 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich @ 1.991805
9 ap-hyderabad_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + karnataka_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.998249
10 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kerala_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.999976
11 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 2.007636
12 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 2.015070
13 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kurumba_metspalu @ 2.028135
14 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + kashmiri_harappa @ 2.030125
15 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 2.032901
16 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.040113
17 bene-israel-jew_behar + goan_harappa + gujarati_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa @ 2.046207
18 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 2.046392
19 gujarati-muslim_harappa + hallaki_reich + punjabi-arain_xing + velama_reich @ 2.047335
20 gujarati-muslim_harappa + kerala_harappa + meena_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 2.049186

vishankar
01-24-2020, 08:36 AM
the maniyanis ( like most other castes) have a tradition of migration from the north...and they are concentrated in northern malabar and kasargod...and considered as a non nambiar variety nair.

tipirneni
01-24-2020, 02:39 PM
posting a kerala maniyani( yadava) lady's harappa score and oracles-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.45
2 Baloch 36.02
3 Caucasian 7.33
4 NE-Euro 2.50
5 Mediterranean 2.18
6 Beringian 1.29
7 American 1.19
8 Papuan 1.10
9 SW-Asian 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tn-brahmin_xing @ 3.807381
2 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.201227
3 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 4.435697
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 4.672824
5 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.674590
6 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 4.793781
7 goan_harappa @ 4.797945
8 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.024075
9 meghawal_reich @ 5.093552
10 kerala_harappa @ 5.106095
11 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.665808
12 gujarati_harappa @ 5.679139
13 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.766735
14 ap-brahmin_xing @ 6.115019
15 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 6.508644
16 up_harappa @ 6.723506
17 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.785043
18 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 6.934909
19 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 6.976820
20 cochin-jew_behar @ 7.725198

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% hallaki_reich +50% punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.617840


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-muslim_harappa +25% gujarati-patel_harappa +25% hallaki_reich @ 1.991805


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + kalash_hgdp @ 1.936872
2 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 1.952001
3 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 1.958261
4 ap-hyderabad_harappa + cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 1.974807
5 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 1.975180
6 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu @ 1.978163
7 bene-israel-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + meena_metspalu + singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 1.990479
8 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich @ 1.991805
9 ap-hyderabad_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + karnataka_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.998249
10 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kerala_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.999976
11 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 2.007636
12 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 2.015070
13 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kurumba_metspalu @ 2.028135
14 cochin-jew_behar + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka_harappa + kashmiri_harappa @ 2.030125
15 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp @ 2.032901
16 cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.040113
17 bene-israel-jew_behar + goan_harappa + gujarati_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa @ 2.046207
18 gujarati-muslim_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 2.046392
19 gujarati-muslim_harappa + hallaki_reich + punjabi-arain_xing + velama_reich @ 2.047335
20 gujarati-muslim_harappa + kerala_harappa + meena_metspalu + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 2.049186

Looks real mix
ap-hyderabad_harappa + gujarati-muslim_harappa + karnataka_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.998249
cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kerala_harappa + meena_metspalu @ 1.999976
cochin-jew_behar + goan_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.040113

vishankar
01-24-2020, 03:26 PM
do these oracles indicate that the population ( 4 components ) have gone to creating the index population..??...
The Maniyani are said to be migrants from Sourashtra ( as the Vaniya ) as well as Gollas from AP and Karnataka...so would not be surprised....and also they intermarry with Nairs!.
This lady has 5th cousins on ft dna - Nambiars, Poduvals and also a slighlty more distant Thiyya sample!

vishankar
01-24-2020, 03:29 PM
now my 2nd Bunt SAMPLE)))-

SHETTY male from mangalore-


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 51.55
2 Baloch 37.88
3 NE-Euro 3.42
4 Caucasian 2.02
5 Mediterranean 1.62
6 Siberian 1.34
7 Papuan 1.00


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 3.781574
2 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.996059
3 meghawal_metspalu @ 4.704327
4 dharkar_metspalu @ 4.790303
5 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.901215
6 gujarati-a_1000genomes @ 4.911925
7 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.130502
8 ap-reddy_harappa @ 5.207832
9 tharu_metspalu @ 5.483655
10 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.487324
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.542544
12 lambadi_metspalu @ 5.608017
13 gujarati-a_hapmap @ 5.640445
14 goan_harappa @ 5.869544
15 rajasthani_harappa @ 5.950861
16 karnataka_harappa @ 6.074136
17 tn-brahmin_xing @ 6.276835
18 kanjar_metspalu @ 6.321253
19 gujarati-patel_harappa @ 6.344362
20 up_harappa @ 6.355569

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-a_hapmap +50% up_harappa @ 1.901868


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-patel_harappa +25% sourastrian_harappa +25% up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.319748
2 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144
3 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.356322
4 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.392654
5 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.402748
6 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.460165
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + maharashtrian_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.471080
8 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.475501
9 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.490929
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.495896
11 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka-brahmin_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.501004
12 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.509784
13 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.517528
14 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + tn-brahmin_xing @ 1.519715
15 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.527393
16 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sinhalese_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.537613
17 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + vaish_reich @ 1.540713
18 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.549298
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.551297
20 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.552526

Done.

Elapsed time 8.5799 seconds.

vishankar
01-24-2020, 03:29 PM
He gets kerala nair 7th on oracle....seems very similar to many of the nairs i have posted!

vishankar
01-24-2020, 05:14 PM
And now i have a kerala nair( Pillai) from Kollam....

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.91
2 Baloch 37.70
3 Caucasian 6.34
4 NE-Euro 3.20
5 SW-Asian 1.37


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 goan_harappa @ 2.985134
2 tn-brahmin_xing @ 3.159017
3 kerala-nair_harappa @ 3.397125
4 rajasthani_harappa @ 3.421621
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 3.438341
6 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 3.550660
7 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 3.845390
8 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.971873
9 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.181257
10 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.692429
11 maharashtrian_harappa @ 4.721082
12 meghawal_reich @ 4.946966
13 meghawal_metspalu @ 5.326735
14 gujarati_harappa @ 5.331937
15 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.686673
16 kurmi_metspalu @ 6.057458
17 up_harappa @ 6.330217
18 kerala_harappa @ 6.838670
19 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.936471
20 lambadi_metspalu @ 6.989666

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% goan_harappa +50% kerala-christian_harappa @ 2.259869


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal_metspalu +25% punjabi-arain_xing +25% velama_reich @ 1.716817


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_1000genomes + punjabi-khatri_harappa + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.247483
2 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich + velama_reich @ 1.349086
3 gujarati-a_1000genomes + punjabi-khatri_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.378496
4 gujarati-a_hapmap + punjabi-khatri_harappa + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.380813
5 pathan_hgdp + velama_metspalu + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.392214
6 sindhi_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.401263
7 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich + velama_reich @ 1.402167
8 kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.408037
9 sindhi_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.418933
10 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.422631
11 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.436714
12 pathan_hgdp + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.438045
13 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kurumba_metspalu + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 1.439036
14 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich + velama_reich @ 1.447986
15 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.460144
16 gujarati-a_hapmap + kurumba_metspalu + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 1.466648
17 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + velama_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.470437
18 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich + velama_metspalu @ 1.479263
19 goan_harappa + punjabi_harappa + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.480122
20 goan_harappa + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.494949

vishankar
01-24-2020, 05:14 PM
very Nairish:) for want of a better word!!!

Rustyshakelford
01-26-2020, 04:55 PM
Kerala Thiyya from Kannur: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/eu3bnp/results_indian_malayali_here/

YDNA: J-M172
MtDNA: U1a3

Harrappa in the comments

vishankar
01-27-2020, 02:34 PM
he also appears to be having the same mix as many non brahmin hindus!... ahigher ASI fraction though!....i think in Harappa we have to be cautious about attributing NE europe entirely to Steppe , as possible Saami mixture would be there too!...Lukazsc 47 and K16 seem to give a clearer picture....! ( abot european genes) , admixture studio 2.4 has Tolan's modern which is useful....but it runs very erratically!.
overall the young man from reditt appears to be of significant Levantine ancestry!

Censored
01-27-2020, 08:11 PM
he also appears to be having the same mix as many non brahmin hindus!... ahigher ASI fraction though!....i think in Harappa we have to be cautious about attributing NE europe entirely to Steppe , as possible Saami mixture would be there too!...Lukazsc 47 and K16 seem to give a clearer picture....! ( abot european genes) , admixture studio 2.4 has Tolan's modern which is useful....but it runs very erratically!.
overall the young man from reditt appears to be of significant Levantine ancestry!

How would we acquire Saami admixture?

Censored
01-27-2020, 08:30 PM
Kerala Thiyya from Kannur: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/eu3bnp/results_indian_malayali_here/

YDNA: J-M172
MtDNA: U1a3

Harrappa in the comments

I am going to make one of my own.

bmoney
01-29-2020, 05:41 AM
now my 2nd Bunt SAMPLE)))-

SHETTY male from mangalore-


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 51.55
2 Baloch 37.88
3 NE-Euro 3.42
4 Caucasian 2.02
5 Mediterranean 1.62
6 Siberian 1.34
7 Papuan 1.00


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 3.781574
2 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.996059
3 meghawal_metspalu @ 4.704327
4 dharkar_metspalu @ 4.790303
5 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.901215
6 gujarati-a_1000genomes @ 4.911925
7 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.130502
8 ap-reddy_harappa @ 5.207832
9 tharu_metspalu @ 5.483655
10 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.487324
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.542544
12 lambadi_metspalu @ 5.608017
13 gujarati-a_hapmap @ 5.640445
14 goan_harappa @ 5.869544
15 rajasthani_harappa @ 5.950861
16 karnataka_harappa @ 6.074136
17 tn-brahmin_xing @ 6.276835
18 kanjar_metspalu @ 6.321253
19 gujarati-patel_harappa @ 6.344362
20 up_harappa @ 6.355569

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-a_hapmap +50% up_harappa @ 1.901868


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-patel_harappa +25% sourastrian_harappa +25% up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.319748
2 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144
3 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.356322
4 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.392654
5 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.402748
6 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.460165
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + maharashtrian_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.471080
8 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.475501
9 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.490929
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.495896
11 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka-brahmin_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.501004
12 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.509784
13 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.517528
14 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + tn-brahmin_xing @ 1.519715
15 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.527393
16 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sinhalese_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.537613
17 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + vaish_reich @ 1.540713
18 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.549298
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.551297
20 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.552526

Done.

Elapsed time 8.5799 seconds.

thats the Bunt sample i was looking for - Gangetic Kurmi/Kunbi like

vishankar
01-30-2020, 09:24 PM
How would we acquire Saami admixture?

the saami are the indigenous finno ugric people of scandinavia, i presume with some definite influence in Estonia, and their DNA make up is different from the yamna DNA which makes up steppe.Modern Saami have some 2.5 % yamna....

BMG
02-01-2020, 06:16 PM
now my 2nd Bunt SAMPLE)))-

SHETTY male from mangalore-


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 51.55
2 Baloch 37.88
3 NE-Euro 3.42
4 Caucasian 2.02
5 Mediterranean 1.62
6 Siberian 1.34
7 Papuan 1.00


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 3.781574
2 kurmi_metspalu @ 3.996059
3 meghawal_metspalu @ 4.704327
4 dharkar_metspalu @ 4.790303
5 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.901215
6 gujarati-a_1000genomes @ 4.911925
7 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.130502
8 ap-reddy_harappa @ 5.207832
9 tharu_metspalu @ 5.483655
10 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.487324
11 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.542544
12 lambadi_metspalu @ 5.608017
13 gujarati-a_hapmap @ 5.640445
14 goan_harappa @ 5.869544
15 rajasthani_harappa @ 5.950861
16 karnataka_harappa @ 6.074136
17 tn-brahmin_xing @ 6.276835
18 kanjar_metspalu @ 6.321253
19 gujarati-patel_harappa @ 6.344362
20 up_harappa @ 6.355569

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-a_hapmap +50% up_harappa @ 1.901868


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-patel_harappa +25% sourastrian_harappa +25% up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.319748
2 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.323144
3 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.356322
4 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + srivastava_reich @ 1.392654
5 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.402748
6 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.460165
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + maharashtrian_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.471080
8 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.475501
9 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.490929
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-patel_harappa + sourastrian_harappa + vaish_reich @ 1.495896
11 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + karnataka-brahmin_harappa + srivastava_reich @ 1.501004
12 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_hapmap + sourastrian_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.509784
13 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.517528
14 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + srivastava_reich + tn-brahmin_xing @ 1.519715
15 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.527393
16 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + sinhalese_harappa + up-brahmin_harappa @ 1.537613
17 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_metspalu + vaish_reich @ 1.540713
18 gujarati-patel_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + meghawal_reich + sourastrian_harappa @ 1.549298
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.551297
20 gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-a_1000genomes + gujarati-b_hapmap + south-african-indian_harappa @ 1.552526

Done.

Elapsed time 8.5799 seconds.

The bunt results are as expected by me . They are actually like southern shifted nairs .
Do you know their uniparental markers?

Amber29
02-01-2020, 08:23 PM
Kerala Thiyya from Kannur: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/eu3bnp/results_indian_malayali_here/

YDNA: J-M172
MtDNA: U1a3

Harrappa in the comments

I went through the some DNA matches in my list which is coming through my mother, I knows how 3 of the matches (all whom are christians, have the same haplogroup mtdna: U1A3 was in common, but ydna was y6 AND Y7..all high in malayali - wonder if its all the same mother line?

Rustyshakelford
02-01-2020, 09:25 PM
I went through the some DNA matches in my list which is coming through my mother, I knows how 3 of the matches (all whom are christians, have the same haplogroup mtdna: U1A3 was in common, but ydna was y6 AND Y7..all high in malayali - wonder if its all the same mother line?

U1a3 seems to be really common in Kerala. Few of the members here belong to this clade and I’ve seen a number of other malayalees on Reddit and Facebook also. Higher presence in Christians is probably just founder effect.

Amber29
02-01-2020, 09:34 PM
U1a3 seems to be really common in Kerala. Few of the members here belong to this clade and I’ve seen a number of other malayalees on Reddit and Facebook also. Higher presence in Christians is probably just founder effect.

im more curious about my connection even though i see it through my grandad (maternal grandad) - also the matches do show some egyptian coptic admix? kind of interesting. makes me wonder if some of the admix came from them but never know untill more proof. - suprisingly there is alot of kerala people in dna matches - with admix from of brahmin and christian and maybe one 2 occasions a jewish connection (the matches show this and dad shows a common jewish with some matches on that same segment.. this is what ive gathered but until further notice but im not too sure yet ofcourse just a speculation which i connected the dots and all. - its confusing but VERY interesting to see. wonder it could be through maternal grandfathers mother i dont know - if I find anything to ill share more on this page.

bmoney
02-02-2020, 01:59 AM
Kerala Thiyya from Kannur: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/eu3bnp/results_indian_malayali_here/

YDNA: J-M172
MtDNA: U1a3

Harrappa in the comments

whats interesting is his Malayali % in 23andme. its lower than mine.

I would have assumed the inverse since he is Thiyya

It seems Syrian Christians (Malayali sample in 23andme) have either/or/both a high caste Hindu signature or some Middle-East pseudo ANF signature that Ezhava/Thiyyas do not score. Also there seems to be a lot of heterogeneity in Ezhava/Thiyya results

Anyway a couple of interesting things I wanted to share:

This ancestry timeline 23andme suggests for me reflects a North (Gangetic see Bengal as earliest in my timeline) to South migration. I will note about the Southern subgroup in my analysis (South Brahmins from USA) who are likely overwhelmingly Telugu/Tam Brams and not Karnataka/Kerala Brahmins, that its providing noise in my profile as its likely just a combined package of North/South genes that have been bundled out due to the algorithm they use as a false positive in this case. I suspect if 23andme ruled it out, my North/Gangetic % in earlier stages would be higher. We definitely have records from 1900+ (southern subgroup 23andme timeline inference suggest the mixture is from 1900 at the earliest so very recent) my grandparents had living ancestors born then and they were not Brahmins and definitely not from AP/TN like the southern Brahmin USA sample set in 23andme

This will likely be a similar analysis for Coorghis, Bunts and most Malabar Nairs and a non-majority of South Kerala Nairs (without Brahmin heritage) who resemble the hypothetical proto-Nair-Bunt UP low-mid caste substrate into Kerala coinciding with Tulu alphabet turnover and language shift from Tamil to Malayalam and Hindu cultural domination of Kerala from Agamic/Buddhist/Nasrani pre-dominance


https://i.imgur.com/IL5u4mm.png

Also another datapoint that i dont know what to make of. Razib recently modelled Inpe based on the latest Reich lab paper on the samples in his dataset which drastically lowered my steppe even compared to Tam Brams but put me ('high caste nair1' apologise for the crass naming Razib asked my what subset i was among Nairs and i said something like 'higher subdivision' and thats how he named my sample) as #2 Inpe among all South Asian samples except a Punjabi Arain. The Coorghi + Varma (Nair origin mainly) sample resembled me the most and came out #10 in terms of Inpe% not far from me in terms of Inpe. The Punjabi Arain seems to be quite a bit ahead in terms of Inpe compared to everyone though but it checks out: farming/herding non-elite in the vicinity of the Indus with some geographical isolation reducing steppe % from the Indo-Aryan wave compared to nearby pops. The IVC is alive and well in terms of genetics if not culture

So, if this analysis is the most accurate, as you can see by colour gradient highlights - Inpe is clearly the most important genetic signal in all South Asians except tribal outliers or steppe outliers like UP Jatts. What language did the pop speak, what culture was definitively associated with this ancestry?

https://i.imgur.com/NRjPJaP.png

Anywho incidentally i (and some Nairs, Bunts & Coorghis) definitely look more Gujju/Marathi(coastal not inland)/Konkan than any other South Asian pop so phenotype seems to correlate to some extent with Inpe ancestry but this is not factual just an opinion

client
02-02-2020, 02:37 AM
thats the Bunt sample i was looking for - Gangetic Kurmi/Kunbi like

Kurmi, Kanbi(Patidar), Kunbi(Maratha), and possibly Kudumbar, Kapu, Kamma, etc are related agriculturist groups. Some even link Kurumba/Kurubas, Devendrakula Vellalarsa(as a whole, not just Kudumars) etc to this faction but I am unsure of their relationship.



...
This ancestry timeline 23andme suggests for me reflects a North (Gangetic see Bengal as earliest in my timeline) to South migration. I will note about the Southern subgroup in my analysis (South Brahmins from USA) who are likely overwhelmingly Telugu/Tam Brams and not Karnataka/Kerala Brahmins, that its providing noise in my profile as its likely just a combined package of North/South genes that have been bundled out due to the algorithm they use as a false positive in this case. I suspect if 23andme ruled it out, my North/Gangetic % in earlier stages would be higher. We definitely have records from 1900+ (southern subgroup 23andme timeline inference suggest the mixture is from 1900 at the earliest so very recent) my grandparents had living ancestors born then and they were not Brahmins and definitely not from AP/TN like the southern Brahmin USA sample set in 23andme
...



Unfortunately even Chitpavan Brahmins are scoring close to 100% of this Southern Subgroup
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/cn1ywv/south_asian_beta_98_southern_indian_subgroup/

AP/TN Brahmins probably have varied origins compared to West Coast Brahmins who are all from northwestern India:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14255-Central-Asian-component-in-Dravidian-Speaker&p=408830#post408830

Rustyshakelford
02-02-2020, 05:35 AM
whats interesting is his Malayali % in 23andme. its lower than mine.

I would have assumed the inverse since he is Thiyya

It seems Syrian Christians (Malayali sample in 23andme) have either/or/both a high caste Hindu signature or some Middle-East pseudo ANF signature that Ezhava/Thiyyas do not score. Also there seems to be a lot of heterogeneity in Ezhava/Thiyya results

Anyway a couple of interesting things I wanted to share:

This ancestry timeline 23andme suggests for me reflects a North (Gangetic see Bengal as earliest in my timeline) to South migration. I will note about the Southern subgroup in my analysis (South Brahmins from USA) who are likely overwhelmingly Telugu/Tam Brams and not Karnataka/Kerala Brahmins, that its providing noise in my profile as its likely just a combined package of North/South genes that have been bundled out due to the algorithm they use as a false positive in this case. I suspect if 23andme ruled it out, my North/Gangetic % in earlier stages would be higher. We definitely have records from 1900+ (southern subgroup 23andme timeline inference suggest the mixture is from 1900 at the earliest so very recent) my grandparents had living ancestors born then and they were not Brahmins and definitely not from AP/TN like the southern Brahmin USA sample set in 23andme

This will likely be a similar analysis for Coorghis, Bunts and most Malabar Nairs and a non-majority of South Kerala Nairs (without Brahmin heritage) who resemble the hypothetical proto-Nair-Bunt UP low-mid caste substrate into Kerala coinciding with Tulu alphabet turnover and language shift from Tamil to Malayalam and Hindu cultural domination of Kerala from Agamic/Buddhist/Nasrani pre-dominance


https://i.imgur.com/IL5u4mm.png

Also another datapoint that i dont know what to make of. Razib recently modelled Inpe based on the latest Reich lab paper on the samples in his dataset which drastically lowered my steppe even compared to Tam Brams but put me ('high caste nair1' apologise for the crass naming Razib asked my what subset i was among Nairs and i said something like 'higher subdivision' and thats how he named my sample) as #2 Inpe among all South Asian samples except a Punjabi Arain. The Coorghi + Varma (Nair origin mainly) sample resembled me the most and came out #10 in terms of Inpe% not far from me in terms of Inpe. The Punjabi Arain seems to be quite a bit ahead in terms of Inpe compared to everyone though but it checks out: farming/herding non-elite in the vicinity of the Indus with some geographical isolation reducing steppe % from the Indo-Aryan wave compared to nearby pops. The IVC is alive and well in terms of genetics if not culture

So, if this analysis is the most accurate, as you can see by colour gradient highlights - Inpe is clearly the most important genetic signal in all South Asians except tribal outliers or steppe outliers like UP Jatts. What language did the pop speak, what culture was definitively associated with this ancestry?

https://i.imgur.com/NRjPJaP.png

Anywho incidentally i (and some Nairs, Bunts & Coorghis) definitely look more Gujju/Marathi(coastal not inland)/Konkan than any other South Asian pop so phenotype seems to correlate to some extent with Inpe ancestry but this is not factual just an opinion

Interesting, iirc the varma sample, your sample, the kodava, and the iyer/tambrahms all scored similar amounts of the Lithuanian component in his other model. In this one though steppe plummeted for you guys while the Iyer/tambrams retained theirs. Don’t know what to make of that.
Btw is surname Varma used in north kerala too or is it just a Travancore/Cochin thing?

vishankar
02-02-2020, 05:43 AM
there are varmas in north kerala....the nileshwar rajas use that surname... and so do some Tulu royalty, in northernmost Kasargod!

bmoney
02-02-2020, 11:07 PM
there are varmas in north kerala....the nileshwar rajas use that surname... and so do some Tulu royalty, in northernmost Kasargod!

Yep grandmas grandad was the Nileshwar raja, apparently they married Nairs for land. However great gdad
side of the family were considered Nair class and couldn’t keep the Varma title due to
Maternal nair heritage.

If the Nileshwar Raja’s are related to kolathiris and not empowered Nair origin clans like the Zamorins then they are likely more genetically similar to Thiyyas as they are of pre-Malayalam Kerala stock

bmoney
02-02-2020, 11:11 PM
Kurmi, Kanbi(Patidar), Kunbi(Maratha), and possibly Kudumbar, Kapu, Kamma, etc are related agriculturist groups. Some even link Kurumba/Kurubas, Devendrakula Vellalarsa(as a whole, not just Kudumars) etc to this faction but I am unsure of their relationship.




Unfortunately even Chitpavan Brahmins are scoring close to 100% of this Southern Subgroup
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/cn1ywv/south_asian_beta_98_southern_indian_subgroup/

AP/TN Brahmins probably have varied origins compared to West Coast Brahmins who are all from northwestern India:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14255-Central-Asian-component-in-Dravidian-Speaker&p=408830#post408830


It’s clear southern subgroup can create false positives as shown in my case. It’s my largest ancestral group. In the case of the Chitpawan I’m certain they share ancestry with AP/TN Brahmins but this 100% level evidently also includes some false positive matching as it would suggest Chitpawans and TN/AP Brahmins have not had any local substrate admix. I’m surprised this got past you

There is historical similarity between Srauta Brahmins linked to southern Karnataka and 23andmes algos would probably find the pattern once they have enough samples though since these pops are small and underrepresented in the west chances of that are sli

Regarding your NW India comment if you’re relating it to Kerala/Karnat Brahmins. Ahichatra is not in the NW. It’s in the Indo-Nepalese border of Western UP. This was likely very close to the middle Indo-Aryan orthodox seat of power hence the importance Nambudiris place to in adherence to Srauta rituals

Go to the namboodiri website and read what Nambudiris say about their own history

bmoney
02-02-2020, 11:34 PM
Bunts don’t look that distinct genetically but the only Brahmin work that mentions their origin, the grama padati, lines up with this sample. They could have been a relatively later entrant to the south but yes all of those Kurmi castes seem to be linked but certainly different timelines and directions of travel

Do the Brahmins of South Karnataka, Kerala, some Nairs, Bunts and possible Coorghis have similar links to Karnataka and then to further north and particularly Ahichatra? Yes and likely to the same migration imo

bmoney
02-03-2020, 12:34 AM
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vRwS6FmS2g0C&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=grama+padathi&source=bl&ots=RGbuPyU5cT&sig=ACfU3U1rzT9I_zBVwdPuQxYpwUT2cyXF4g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwzqTXkLTnAhUDzTgGHYZ5DZYQ6AEwAHoECAYQA Q

bmoney
02-03-2020, 12:48 AM
Interesting, iirc the varma sample, your sample, the kodava, and the iyer/tambrahms all scored similar amounts of the Lithuanian component in his other model. In this one though steppe plummeted for you guys while the Iyer/tambrams retained theirs. Don’t know what to make of that.
Btw is surname Varma used in north kerala too or is it just a Travancore/Cochin thing?

Exactly, to me it makes more sense as Brahmins would be expected to have more actual Sintashta indo-aryan steppe. It shows that sometimes the ANE we score from our Turanian Iran N farmer component of IVC (don’t believe the rest of the south Asian exoticness forum South Indians score plenty of it and it’s hard to say still what’s BMAC or not when you take out the AHG component as both BMAC and IVC had the Turanian Ane influenced Iran N without ANF) as the Yamna scored so much ANE given it’s large Eastern ancestral component it’s easy for ANE levels to boost steppe as seen in the Paniya if you don’t model optimally for it. or the ANF you guys score (Kna) coming up as sintashta steppe in this notice? But yeah Kna have very little South tribal ancestry at least according to AHG look at the low %ages it suggests they married into high IVC level elites in Kerala and carried over their ME ANF

client
02-03-2020, 02:24 AM
It’s clear southern subgroup can create false positives as shown in my case. It’s my largest ancestral group. In the case of the Chitpawan I’m certain they share ancestry with AP/TN Brahmins but this 100% level evidently also includes some false positive matching as it would suggest Chitpawans and TN/AP Brahmins have not had any local substrate admix. I’m surprised this got past you


IMO, it could be your largest ancestral group or at least it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were, especially looking at your uncle's genetic profile. You may not have recent attestable ancestry but you may have had it from all sides from before you have records.
I checked Tamil Mid results(low-mid 50s SI range - Nattu Gounder, Kongu Vellalar etc) , and they literally score more North India/Pakistani (4/5%) than Southern Subgroup(≈2%).
I personally think Southern Brahmins aren't all that different from what they were upon arrival to Southern India, its not like they were Kalash or Ror who married Sakilli women on day 1 to arrive at the modern genetic profile - probably a gradual diffusion and gradual acquisition of admixture. This is why we don't see much variation in SI levels across state boundaries (say Maharashtra to TN) despite differences in local population, but it is significant at the subsect level(in AP/TN).




There is historical similarity between Srauta Brahmins linked to southern Karnataka and 23andmes algos would probably find the pattern once they have enough samples though since these pops are small and underrepresented in the west chances of that are sli
They also share similarities with the Sangam era Brahmins that lived in Tamil Nadu(Dikshitar, Chozhiar, etc)
From Sudkol's post



In the twentieth century, the Bhandarkar Institute in Pune standardized the Mahabharata text by collecting all the different versions available across the subcontinent. The following versions were collected-

1. codex in Sarada script in Kashmir valley
2. Kashmiri version of Mahabharata (Sanskrit in Sarada script, gloss and commentary in Kashmiri)
3. Devanagari version
4. Bengali version (Sanskrit in Bangla script, commentary in Bengali)
5. Maithili version
6. Nepali version
7. Malayalam version
8. Telugu-Grantha version
9. Tamil version

The briefest of all these versions was the Sarada codex which probably served as the archetype for all the other versions. And surprisingly, among all the other versions, it's the Malayalam version that corresponds the closest to the Sarada codex.
...

In Tamil literature of the Sangam era 50 BC - 250 CE, there is mention of Brahman immigrants from the north who wore their tufts to the front (purvashikhas). These are brahmans, predominantly of the Vasishtha gotra who are documented in Vedic literature as wearing their kapardi on the right front of the heads. So, Mahadevan concludes that the group that started from Kuru carrying the same version that reached Kashmir are none other than the Purvashikhas who reached Tamil Kingdom around the beginning of the Common Era. A subset of these brahmans moved to Malabar region via Palghat during the Kalabhra kingdom 4th - 7th century CE since Kalabhras were anti-Brahman patrons of Jainism. This subset carried the original version which ended up becoming the version in Malayalam script found in 1920s. This subset of the Purvashikha brahmans who moved to Kerala came to be known in later centuries as Namboothiri brahmins.

But then, there was yet another well-documented series of migrations starting from around the 5th century CE and going on almost till 1500 CE. These brahmans are described as Aparashika wearing their tuft at the back of their head as Brahmans are commonly depicted these days. These Srauta brahmans brought with them a new version of the Mahabharata, that was redacted possibly during the Sunga empire. The older version which was also the one that ended up in Kerala hosted this new version which is why in the Tamil and Telugu versions of the epic, you seem an amalgamation of elements from the Kashmiri-Malayalam version and the eastern Devanagari versions. In other words, there was admixture between two traditions. In fact, the Telugu-Grantha version shows the greatest degree of such admixture.

bmoney
02-03-2020, 02:29 AM
IMO, it could be your largest ancestral group or at least it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were, especially looking at your uncle's genetic profile. You may not have recent attestable ancestry but you may have had it from all sides from before you have records.
I checked Tamil Mid results(low-mid 50s SI range - Nattu Gounder, Kongu Vellalar etc) , and they literally score more North India/Pakistani (4/5%) than Southern Subgroup(≈2%).
I personally think Southern Brahmins aren't all that different from what they were upon arrival to Southern India, its not like they were Kalash or Ror who married Sakilli women on day 1 to arrive at the modern genetic profile - probably a gradual diffusion and gradual acquisition of admixture. This is why we don't see much variation in SI levels across state boundaries (say Maharashtra to TN) despite differences in local population, but it is significant at the subsect level(in AP/TN).




They also share similarities with the Sangam era Brahmins that lived in Tamil Nadu(Dikshitar, Chozhiar, etc)
From Sudkol's post

Haha bruh you’re clutching at straws here when youre argument rests on rejecting My own recent ancestry. I can ask my grandma bro lol. My uncle doesn’t score like Iyers at all, he has less Iran n and shows up as majority Steppe enriched Nepalese A (Nep Brahmin) in mixed mode indicative of Gangetic ancestry being the most parsimonious explanation. His closest fit is Karnataka Brahmin as well

There is also no way chitpawans are almost identical to Tn Brahmins over a 1000 years or thereabouts. It’s obviously the algorithm trying its best to fit available samples

Also your information regarding cultural similarity, which I do not reject,
still does not change the fact that Nambudiris arrived later in Kerala much later than Brahmins were mentioned in TN as well as disregarding their own history and they are culturally significantly different and not Smartha

Are all South Indian Brahmins genetically very close, yes absolutely like you say, they have similar mix of north/south ancestry but their timelines and small signatures are definitely more nuanced so please let us find out more Kerala history in the Kerala thread

client
02-03-2020, 02:48 AM
Why aren't you reading my posts!

1)Nambudiris arrived much later than the first layer of Brahmins in TN(purvashika-wearing tuft of hair on the front of the head, this practice was adopted by many castes in Kerala, imitating the Brahmins) because they are the same group. They migrated to Kerala from TN(at least in part, there may have been migrants from elsewhere as well like parasar had once talked about Bharoch)

The later migrants into Tamil Nadu(Aparashika - hair tuft at the back of the head) that include the majority of Tamil Brahmin sects(Vadama, Brahacharanam, Ashtasahasram , etc) arrive later and do not enter Kerala until they were invited by local Nair Royalty for coronation.

2)What I am saying is exactly the opposite of Chitpavans being exactly the same as TN/AP Brahmins. I am saying a portion of TN/AP Brahmins would be related to those on the west coast and a portion would have different origin, this is at susbect level.
From my understanding showing up as X% of southern subgroup means you greatly share with certain samples on the dataset not that you resemble everyone simultaneously(if there is variation within the group). Otherwise all castes/tribes would be getting results all over the place.

3)Yeah your uncle is probably mostly Namboothiri by ancestry, Iyers or Tulu Brahmins wouldn''t mix with Nairs(very rarely) in Kerala. I doubt Nairs have Nepali ancestry.

And there is a lot of variation in Tamil and Telugu Brahmin scores from subsect to subsect(compared to West Coast Brahmins who are more uniform)
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-Post-HarappaWorld-results&p=629451#post629451

client
02-03-2020, 03:09 AM
Soliya is an alternate spelling for Chozhia(Chola era) Brahmin. They along with Dikshitars represent the first wave of Brahmins into Tamilakam both being purvashika(along with Nambudiris).

My specific thesis with respect to the Brahman migrations of the two groups and
the epic is that what Sukthankar isolates as the Śārada text, his archetype for the epic and
basis for the CE of Mahābhārata epic or a text very close to it, say *Śārada version, came
to the Tamil country with the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans by the beginnings of the Common
Era (CE): these Brahmans with their fronted tuft are well attested in the Sangam poetry,
ca. 50 BCE to 250 CE, and they created from the *Śārada text what has come down to us
as SR in the first four or five centuries of CE. I will designate this *Pūrvaśikhā text of
the SR of the Mahābhārata.
-----
I show that two distinct waves of Brahmans arrived in the
Tamil-Kerala country in the pre-modern period from the Vedic regions of Northern India,
adhering to two separate śrauta praxises, the first wearing their traditional hair tuft--
kuṭumi in Tamil--in front and thus collectively known as Pūrvaśikhā, and the second,
Aparaśikhā, wearing it toward the back, as a pony tail

This *Śārada text present in the Sangam Tamil country,
being made in the first half of the millennium CE into the *Pūrvaśikhā SR text, supplied
the knowledge of the epic displayed in the poetry of the Sangam anthologies, these
perhaps being composed simultaneously with the *Pūrvaśikhā text, the basis perhaps
even for a Sangam Era translation of the epic, Perutēvanār’s lost Pāratam.
6
At the close
of the Sangam period of Tamil history, brought about by the Kaḷabhra Interregnum, ca.
4
th to 7th CE, a far-reachingly disruptive moment in Tamil history, a branch of the
Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans moved to the Malabar region of Kerala, later the historical
Nambudiri Brahmans of Kerala, through the Palghat gaps, a travel route already in long
use,7
with the *Pūrvaśikhā text, the text remaining there in relative isolation till 1920’s
when summoned to Poona for the CE. Further, the *Pūrvaśikhā text remained behind in
the Tamil country as well with the rump Pūrvaśikhā group, the historically Tamil speaking Śōḻiya Brahmans,

https://scontent.fmaa2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/84742638_631881257563638_7309938843489140736_n.png ?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ohc=sv28XFF2idIAX-yfj0C&_nc_ht=scontent.fmaa2-2.fna&oh=f990a2206b8f8669795ce9257d635c07&oe=5ECC612A

https://crossasia-journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/ejvs/article/view/327

bmoney
02-03-2020, 03:23 AM
IMO, it could be your largest ancestral group or at least it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were, especially looking at your uncle's genetic profile. You may not have recent attestable ancestry but you may have had it from all sides from before you have records.
I checked Tamil Mid results(low-mid 50s SI range - Nattu Gounder, Kongu Vellalar etc) , and they literally score more North India/Pakistani (4/5%) than Southern Subgroup(≈2%).
I personally think Southern Brahmins aren't all that different from what they were upon arrival to Southern India, its not like they were Kalash or Ror who married Sakilli women on day 1 to arrive at the modern genetic profile - probably a gradual diffusion and gradual acquisition of admixture. This is why we don't see much variation in SI levels across state boundaries (say Maharashtra to TN) despite differences in local population, but it is significant at the subsect level(in AP/TN).




They also share similarities with the Sangam era Brahmins that lived in Tamil Nadu(Dikshitar, Chozhiar, etc)
From Sudkol's post


Why aren't you reading my posts!

1)Nambudiris arrived much later than the first layer of Brahmins in TN(purvashika-wearing tuft of hair on the front of the head, this practice was adopted by many castes in Kerala, imitating the Brahmins) because they are the same group. They migrated to Kerala from TN(at least in part, there may have been migrants from elsewhere as well like parasar had once talked about Bharoch)

The later migrants into Tamil Nadu(Aparashika - hair tuft at the back of the head) that include the majority of Tamil Brahmin sects(Vadama, Brahacharanam, Ashtasahasram , etc) arrive later and do not enter Kerala until they were invited by local Nair Royalty for coronation.

2)What I am saying is exactly the opposite of Chitpavans being exactly the same as TN/AP Brahmins. I am saying a portion of TN/AP Brahmins would be related to those on the west coast and a portion would have different origin, this is at susbect level.
From my understanding showing up as X% of southern subgroup means you greatly share with certain samples on the dataset not that you resemble everyone simultaneously(if there is variation within the group). Otherwise all castes/tribes would be getting results all over the place.

3)Yeah your uncle is probably mostly Namboothiri by ancestry, Iyers or Tulu Brahmins wouldn''t mix with Nairs(very rarely) in Kerala. I doubt Nairs have Nepali ancestry.

And there is a lot of variation in Tamil and Telugu Brahmin scores from subsect to subsect(compared to West Coast Brahmins who are more uniform)
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-Post-HarappaWorld-results&p=629451#post629451

No 1 I’ll take Nambudiri written history and Havyak who coincidentally have the same history (adjusting for mythology) as the authority for their history thanks. They did not come from TN they came from southern Karnataka and brought the old Tulu script with them which previously was not used in Kerala. Their first settlement was Northern Kerala adjacent to Karnataka not TN. One hairstyle is not proof. In addition, they perform orthodox Aryan rituals not known in TN

2 makes sense to me, can’t disagree with that.

No 3 again you fall into the but all indo aryan ancestry came via Brahmins trap. So I’m guessing all the steppe present in non Brahmin south samples from Razibs modelling is from Brahmins? My uncle scored up kshatriya at no 2 (and I in Lukasz modelling) my point regarding nep a (check where Ahichatra is in modern day terms) was that there’s a steppe enriched/lower Iran n component in him showing up in mixed mode which exists in castes like up kshatiya and other gangetic castes due to influence from the middle indo aryan kingdom stronghold in that region, and shows up as a slightly higher steppe % overall in Nambudiris compared to Iyers who have more Iran N ancestry on average. To me a higher Gangetic % of ancestry due to more recent arrival of Kerala Brahmins is the only available explanation, name another. Some high Iran N Nambudiri samples could be from Gujarat, no evidence but can’t be ruled out as parasar says but the first batch were from south Karnataka. Their first known settlement again was adjacent to Karnataka.

Also quick mafs my uncle scores higher Ne euro than all known Namb samples, yet our southern Brahmin % is less than half (mine is, he deleted his 23andme account due to privacy reasons and his result Came out before the updated regional analysis). All Gangetic samples score steppe not just Brahmins. Brahmins there score very high levels, much above what my uncle scores but middle and low castes score less which, again, lines up with the scarce texts we have available regarding Nair (only Kiriath nairs are considered part of this origin theory) and Bunt history

Of course TN/AP Brahmins are varied I never implied they were a monolith and came together in one migration. I know a subset came from Gujarat

client
02-03-2020, 03:49 AM
I guess I'll take neutral analysis of scriptures in published articles(by those who have spent their lives studying this)+external evidence

One subset of TN Brahmins is what Nambudiris are descended from, and the later subsets are from various places(for more detail refer to the paper I posted). This doesn't mean they're not related to "Havyaks" or whatever(I haven't said that anywhere).
Nambudiri ritualism is quite similar to Dikshitars and Soliyars from what I have read, but maybe not to the majority of Tamil Brahmin sects that are Aparashika.

Also from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambudiri#Vedic_learning

The following Vedic recensions are attested among them.[12]

Rigveda, the Śākala recension which is the only extant recension of the Rigveda across India. The Nambudiris follow both the Āśvalāyana and Śāṅkhāyana Śrauta Sūtras. The latter, called the Kauṣītaki tradition among Nambudiris is restricted to them.
Yajurveda, the Taittirīya śākhā with the Baudhāyana, Vādhūla and Āgniveśya srauta sutras.
Samaveda in the Jaiminīya recension, which is elsewhere found only among the Śōḻiya Brahmans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakha#Sama_Veda


Furthermore from
On the Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography

We have enough evidence to link
the Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās, historically attested today in Kerala—and so linked to that
area as to appear autochthonous--to the Tamil country: We encounter, for instance, the
uniquely Pūrvaśikhā epigraphic term, “paviḻiya” (or pakaḻiya) for the bahuvṛcaĀśvalāyana tradition, occurring in Taṇṭantoṭṭam Plates of the Pallavas, dated to 790 CE:
four families (items 23 [kāśyapa gotra; Nimbēi Vaugaśarma-trivedi]; 97 [bhāradvāja
gotra; Aṇappūr Bhavarudra-caturvedin; 128 [rathītara gotra; Mēṟṟamaṅgalam
Uttarakaraṇika alias Ayyan Parameśvaran; 134 [gārga gotra; Vaṅgippāru Damodara
Bhaṭṭa]; Mahalingam 1988: 289-313; see below) adhering to this sūtra are part of the
brahmadeya deed, living in the Toṇṭaimaṇṭalam area of the Tamil country, in the southern
parts of today’s Andhra Pradesh. Today, the term has survived only among the
Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās, designating the Āśvalāyana tradition, placing the Nambudiri
Pūrvaśikhās thus in north-eastern part of the Tamil country as late as the 8th century CE
(see below for a fuller discussion of the Pallava epigraphy and significance of the
occurrence of the term paviḻiya this far north and northeast). We know as well that a
Vedic ritualist like Hastiśarman—of Kāśyapa gotra and Jaiminīya Sūtra--of Vasiṣṭhakuṭi,
thus with the historical identity of a Śōḻiya Pūrvaśikhā and from the southern parts of the
Toṇṭaimaṇṭalam area in the Tamil country, could arrive at Kerala and become a
“Nambūdiri” Pūrvaśikhā there in roughly the same period: the impediment of the
language and the alienation from long separation having not yet arisen.56 All of this
would also explain the ‘anomalous’ alignment between the Śārada text and the
Malayalam version, the latter being almost identical to the *Pūrvaśikhā text, rising
directly from the template of the Śārada text, but leaving the Tamil country proper with
the historical Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās at the Kaḷabhra Interregnum. As I elaborate
elsewhere, it is possible the Pūrvaśikhā group which moves to Malabar to become the
historical Nambudiri Brahmans, were already concentrated in the Karur region of the
Cēra kingdom during the Sangam period, facing the Palghat gaps and arriving in the
Malabar country through those gaps at the Kaḷabhra Interregnum, their settlements
literally ballooning into Malabar from the Tamil country

____

It is in this changed landscape that the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans’ extant historical
identities seem to begin to shape. One broad division is that of language, dividing the
group into two historical divisions, Tamil-speaking and Malayalam-speaking, but only
from ca. 9th century CE, reaching its final shape by the 11th century CE. As noted,
intercourse existed between the Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās and the Tamil Pūrvaśikhās well
into 8th century CE, but by the middle ages of Tamil history, the different segments had
begun to acquire their historical characteristics, defining broadly four extant groups: the
Malayalam-speaking Nambudiri Brahmans; the Tamil-speaking Śōḻiya Brahmans (with
many sub-divisions); the Dīkṣitar Brahmans of the Chidambaram Śiva temple; and the
Mukkāṇi Brahmans of the Tiruchendur Murukan temple.

bmoney
02-03-2020, 04:07 AM
I guess I'll take neutral analysis of scriptures in published articles(by those who have spent their lives studying this)+external evidence

One subset of TN Brahmins is what Nambudiris are descended from, and the later subsets are from various places(for more detail refer to the paper I posted). This doesn't mean they're not related to "Havyaks" or whatever(I haven't said that anywhere).
Nambudiri ritualism is quite similar to Dikshitars and Soliyars from what I have read, but maybe not to the majority of Tamil Brahmin sects that are Aparashika.

Also from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambudiri#Vedic_learning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakha#Sama_Veda


Furthermore from
On the Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography

Havyaka Brahmins, Shivalli Brahmins, Nambudiri Brahmins, kiriath Nairs, Bunts (latter two based on semi mythological Brahmin texts) all similar timelines of mention in the record. All with not one mention of Tamil origin.

All self histories rejected in favour of one text supporting your theory. Could you provide more details on Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography. I want to have a look

bmoney
02-03-2020, 04:08 AM
@bmg what are your thoughts on the matter

client
02-03-2020, 04:28 AM
I already posted the link
https://crossasia-journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/ejvs/article/view/327

Nair-Bunts may have common (Northern) origins, but I don't think they're necessarily related to their respective Brahmins. The Brahmins may have created up a record so as to facilitate their matrimonial alliances with Nair-Bunts.

If you actually read my posts it essentially about a cultural sphere across the region between Western TN and Malabar, Tamil and Malayalam aren't even in the picture.

We know as well that a
Vedic ritualist like Hastiśarman—of Kāśyapa gotra and Jaiminīya Sūtra--of Vasiṣṭhakuṭi,
thus with the historical identity of a Śōḻiya Pūrvaśikhā and from the southern parts of the
Toṇṭaimaṇṭalam area in the Tamil country, could arrive at Kerala and become a
“Nambūdiri” Pūrvaśikhā there in roughly the same period: the impediment of the
language and the alienation from long separation having not yet arisen

So those Shivalli, Havyaka, Nambudiri, and Tamil Purvashikas may be related groups or, Nambudiris form through interaction between Tamil Purvashikas and the former, I am unsure. There is no rejection of self-histories.

And my "text" is not an account, but an analysis of the (variation in) texts carried by the various Brahmins. I haven't read the entire article in detail as of yet.

pnb123
02-03-2020, 07:34 AM
Haha bruh you’re clutching at straws here when youre argument rests on rejecting My own recent ancestry. I can ask my grandma bro lol. My uncle doesn’t score like Iyers at all, he has less Iran n and shows up as majority Steppe enriched Nepalese A (Nep Brahmin) in mixed mode indicative of Gangetic ancestry being the most parsimonious explanation. His closest fit is Karnataka Brahmin as well

There is also no way chitpawans are almost identical to Tn Brahmins over a 1000 years or thereabouts. It’s obviously the algorithm trying its best to fit available samples

Also your information regarding cultural similarity, which I do not reject,
still does not change the fact that Nambudiris arrived later in Kerala much later than Brahmins were mentioned in TN as well as disregarding their own history and they are culturally significantly different and not Smartha

Are all South Indian Brahmins genetically very close, yes absolutely like you say, they have similar mix of north/south ancestry but their timelines and small signatures are definitely more nuanced so please let us find out more Kerala history in the Kerala thread
According to Vanshawali I read on my mother's surname, they didn't migrate from Gangetic Plains at all. They claim to have migrated from NW very earlier (like in the period of 0-300 AD) to Nepal via Himalayan route. Their story is, when Yavanas (could be Shakas or Greeks) attacked NW, they fled towards the mountains & eventually ended up in Nepal. My maternal grandmother's Vanshwali says they migrated from Badrinath(Uttarakhand) like 700 years ago or so. Idk how true this is but they claim that they were Shakas who migrated Eastwards into Himalayas, while most Shakas ended up migrating and settling in Punjab/Sindh region. They definitely did mix with more IVC type folks. Perhaps, those folks were also present in Western Himalayas at that time. They got land grants from Khas Kings of Far Western Nepal hills to settle in Nepal & it's even written in inscription.

You have to find Proto-Brahmin like population if you want to link us with other Brahmins, as Gangetic Brahmins are usually less Steppe shifted compared to us. If they've more Steppe than us, they have lower Iran Neolithic/BMAC than us. I think the theory of Proto-Brahmin population might hold some water, as Brahmins I'm sharing with are not from immediate South of Nepal or immediate Southwest, but spread all over the place. 2 guys are from Uttarakhand (Chamoli & Joshi), 1 Chitpavan guy (Patwardhan), 1 Tamil Brahmin (Ramalingam), 1 Punjabi or Himachal Brahmin (Kalia).

client
02-03-2020, 09:04 AM
@pnb123
I heard a story from a 'Vadadesa Vadama (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadama)' Iyer who said his patrilineal ancestors were Brahmins from around Peshawar who had come to perform "Sarpa Yajna" and various other rituals in Southern India, for Arjuna's great grandson or something, and were asked to stay by Tamil rulers who granted them land.
I cannot vouch for its veracity but it might explain the elevated incidence of Z2123/2124 over L657(in that sect I believe) as some mentioned here.


Also speaking of 'steppic' and proto-Brahmin this Bhumihar seems unusually 'steppic'
. Indus_Periphery Steppe AHG
Bihar_Babhan_1 0.442 0.352 0.206

pnb123
02-03-2020, 04:30 PM
@pnb123
I heard a story from a 'Vadadesa Vadama (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadama)' Iyer who said his patrilineal ancestors were Brahmins from around Peshawar who had come to perform "Sarpa Yajna" and various other rituals in Southern India, for Arjuna's great grandson or something, and were asked to stay by Tamil rulers who granted them land.
I cannot vouch for its veracity but it might explain the elevated incidence of Z2123/2124 over L657(in that sect I believe) as some mentioned here.


Also speaking of 'steppic' and proto-Brahmin this Bhumihar seems unusually 'steppic'
. Indus_Periphery Steppe AHG
Bihar_Babhan_1 0.442 0.352 0.206
Arjun’s great grandson from Mahabharat? I think migration is possible, as Brahmins were spread all over South Asia at that time. We need more samples from real life people & compare against nMonte imo. I see different Steppe % on different calculators for the same sample.

parasar
02-03-2020, 06:10 PM
@pnb123
I heard a story from a 'Vadadesa Vadama (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadama)' Iyer who said his patrilineal ancestors were Brahmins from around Peshawar who had come to perform "Sarpa Yajna" and various other rituals in Southern India, for Arjuna's great grandson or something, and were asked to stay by Tamil rulers who granted them land.
I cannot vouch for its veracity but it might explain the elevated incidence of Z2123/2124 over L657(in that sect I believe) as some mentioned here.


Also speaking of 'steppic' and proto-Brahmin this Bhumihar seems unusually 'steppic'
. Indus_Periphery Steppe AHG
Bihar_Babhan_1 0.442 0.352 0.206

See also:
UP_mohajjir_3 0.423 0.368 0.209

Very likely a Babhan convert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bhumihar) or a Pathan.

parasar
02-04-2020, 05:46 PM
That is quite high: R1a1 at 67%
R1a-63/94

Perhaps gives credence to their Gour name.
"Dwelling in Trihotra, and belonging to the Pancha Gauda"
https://books.google.com/books?id=-B9DOCCzWxEC&pg=PA9

Tirhut~Vaisali , Bihar area.

But others have disagreed:
"one should reappraise and reconsider R. B. Gunjikar’s suggestion in Sarasvati Mandala (1884) that Trihotra is Tirhut in Bihar, which appears to be founded entirely on
tonal resemblance between the words and not supported by any other scriptural, literary, historical or archeological evidences ... The word Trihotra, Trihotrapura and Gaudapradesha are not found in any earlier scriptural or historical records but only in Skanda Purana, composed in later times"
http://www.nageshsonde.com/Dakshinatya-Sarasvats.pdf

"The association of these sixty-six families with Mithila is not explicitly mentioned,20 but, Madhav Deshpande suggests that Trihotra refers to the Tirhut region of Bihar.21 In addition to the supposed migration of Trihotra Brahmins, it is reported that seventy-five Brahmin families migrated from Mithila westward to Mathura, Agra, andother cities in the Braja region in the early 14th century and have resided there until the present." https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/110341/pandey_1.pdf?sequence=1
https://journal.fi/store/article/view/65156/30582
Patityagramanirṇaya Brahmans and the Parasuram connection

"The Pātityagrāmanirṇaya is about communities of fallen Brahmans, which is to say, polluted
Brahmans of untouchable status, in southwestern India. Such groups can be found throughout
India, though, with surprising frequency."

"Many of the stories in the Pātityagrāmanirṇaya also involve Paraśu-Rāma, used as a deus ex
machina, who, on the other hand, raises the status of Brahmans who have sinned.

Other than this, though, the stories appear to have historical basis.

Four of the stories, for instance, clearly involve Brahmans of the 32 villages established in South Kanara for Brahmans
King Mayūravarman brought from Ahichatra, the capital of Pańcāla, in northern India.

A story similar to one of these stories is told by a small community of Kōta Brahmans in Karnataka
reported by Thurston (1909/IV: 31) and Ananthakrishna Iyer (1928–1936/II: 313–314).

Another story has a parallel with regard to the history of a Kerala community of fallen Brahmans, or
polluted Brahmans of untouchable status, reported by Thurston (1909/IV: 32), and of a different
group reported by Enthoven (1920–1922/I: 249). The two stories of pregnant widows also find
parallels. See, for instance, the same reference in Enthoven (1920–1922/I: 249).

The bringing of Brahmans from Ballabhī in Saurashtra by King Mayūravarman, mentioned
in adhyāya 15, is noted elsewhere in a text in verse treating the life of Mayūravarman in a
manuscript of fragments in the India Office Library (Keith 1935: 1570a–1571b (MS. 4104)).
This manuscript notes as well that Mayūravarman was born in Ballabhī, where his father had
gone on pilgrimage and then ended his days (Warder 1972–2011/VI: 31–32). Ballabhī was an
important centre of learning in Saurashtra, and it is where the Śvetāmbara Jain canon was settled
on and put into writing in the fifth century. It was destroyed in the eighth century (Basham
1954: 289; Warder 1972–2011/VI: 32). [cf. the Arab invasion of Ballabhi, Gurjarat, Malwa, Dakshinpath and the battle of Nausari]

That Mayūravarman brought Brahmans from the north, though, is standardly taken to
refer to his having brought Brahmans from Ahichatra, as mentioned above. For instance, Gail
(1977: 204) notes that the arrival of Brahmans from Ahichatra is a historical fact of which
we have inscriptional evidence from the tenth century.

Gail notes that the tradition that it was Mayūravarman who first brought Brahmans from Ahichatra to the region was first set down
in epigraphical sources in the eleventh century. The important literary tradition regarding
this settlement of Brahmans from Ahichatra by Mayūravarman in his kingdom is related in
many versions. For such literary tradition, see, for instance, the Sahyādrikhaṇḍa’s uttarārdha,
adhyāya 8 and the last few verses of adhyāya 7, which mention that these Brahmans were
settled in South Kanara in 32 villages. That such a literary tradition may have its origin before
the mid-tenth century Kadamba dynasty, which had lost sight of its origins, may explain the
simple Sanskrit of adhyāya 8. Alternatively, such a tradition may be dated to some time after
the mid-tenth century.3

Warder suggests that the tradition of Mayūravarman bringing Brahmans from Ballabhī is
a rival tradition to that of Mayūravarman bringing Brahmans from Ahichatra, and is the older
of the two.

The two groups of Brahmans were settled in different areas, though: those from
Ballabhī were settled in Goa on the basis of the Sahyādrikhaṇḍa’s uttarārdha, adhyāya 15,
while those from Ahichatra were settled in South Kanara.

... Vijayanagar viceroy Vīra Bhūpati, who was given dominion over a city in
Karnataka, his “provincial capital”, in 1386 ce. ...

in Sahyādrikhaṇḍa uttarārdha, adhyāya 15, discussed above, he would have Brahmans created by
Paraśu-Rāma to have been kept in a place called Ballabhī by King Mayūravarman (Rao 2005:
157), instead of having learned Brahmans being brought from Ballabhī by Mayūravarman, who
then parcelled out a few villages to the Brahmans who had been brought to the area by Paraśu-
Rāma at an earlier date."

tipirneni
02-04-2020, 10:40 PM
https://journal.fi/store/article/view/65156/30582
Patityagramanirṇaya Brahmans and the Parasuram connection


in Sahyādrikhaṇḍa uttarārdha, adhyāya 15, discussed above, he would have Brahmans created by
Paraśu-Rāma to have been kept in a place called Ballabhī by King Mayūravarman (Rao 2005:
157), instead of having learned Brahmans being brought from Ballabhī by Mayūravarman, who
then parcelled out a few villages to the Brahmans who had been brought to the area by Paraśu-
Rāma at an earlier date."

Many claim heritage from Mayurvarman but also there is a lost case of Shalankayanas of Krishna/Guntur Dt around the same time.

All the Shalankayana kings were devotees of the god Chitraratha i.e.shiva.

They flourished between AD 300 and 500.

Towards the close of the sixth centuryAD Vakataka Harishena defeated the Shalankayana ruler, deposed him and gave the kingdom to the Vishnukundin king maharaja Govindavarma.

These Shalankayanas go out of trace after losing to Brahmin Vakataka dynasty from Deccan. They might have moved with Kadambas or Pallavas down south.

client
02-05-2020, 02:46 AM
@parasar

is that "degraded" status related to this

Sir W. W. Hunter30 speaks of the Nambūtiris as “a despised class,” they having had fishermen ancestors. The little ceremony of catching fish, which is a very important item in the marriage rites, may look like preservation in meaningless ceremonial of something real in the past, but it only shows that, in an endeavour to interpret ceremonial, we must be far from hasty. Among the Shivalli Brāhmans of South Canara, the marriage mat is taken to a tank in procession. The bride and bridegroom make a pretence of catching fish, and, with linked fingers, touch their foreheads. It is recorded, in the Manual of South Canara, that “all Tulu chronicles agree in ascribing the creation of Malabar and Canara, or Kērala, Tuluva, and Haiga, to Parasu Rāma, who reclaimed from the sea as much land as he could cover by hurling his battle-axe from the top of the western ghauts. According to Tulu traditions, after a quarrel with Brāhmans who used to come to him periodically from Ahi-Kshētra, Parasu Rāma procured new Brāhmans for the reclaimed tract by taking the nets of some fishermen, and making a number of Brāhmanical threads [204]with which he invested the fishermen, and thus turned them into Brāhmans, and retired to the mountains to meditate, after informing them that, if they were in distress, and called on him, he would come to their aid. After the lapse of some time, during which they suffered no distress, they were curious to know if Parasu Rāma would remember them, and called upon him in order to find out. He promptly appeared, but punished their thus mocking him by cursing them, and causing them to revert to their old status of Sudras.”

parasar
02-05-2020, 04:49 PM
@parasar

is that "degraded" status related to this

... fishermen, and thus turned them into Brāhmans ...


Yes possible.

I had mentioned a Vishwaphurji to you who looks to be a Licchavi/Kushan/Hoon and is called variously - Viswasphurti, Viswasphani, Viswaspharni, Viswasphati, Viswasphatika.

Fishermen are mentioned as having being elevated by him.
"In Magadha, a sovereign named Viswasphatika will establish other tribes: he will extirpate the Kshattriya (or martial) race, and elevate fishermen [Kaivarta] ..."

So elevation of fishermen may have been a common theme.

discreetmaverick
02-08-2020, 06:30 AM
Double post

discreetmaverick
02-08-2020, 06:33 AM
[QUOTE]Sir W. W. Hunter30 speaks of the Nambūtiris as “a despised class,” they having had fishermen ancestors. The little ceremony of catching fish, which is a very important item in the marriage rites, may look like preservation in meaningless ceremonial of something real in the past, but it only shows that, in an endeavour to interpret ceremonial, we must be far from hasty. Among the Shivalli Brāhmans of South Canara, the marriage mat is taken to a tank in procession. The bride and bridegroom make a pretence of catching fish, and, with linked fingers, touch their foreheads. It is recorded, in the Manual of South Canara, that “all Tulu chronicles agree in ascribing the creation of Malabar and Canara, or Kērala, Tuluva, and Haiga, to Parasu Rāma, who reclaimed from the sea as much land as he could cover by hurling his battle-axe from the top of the western ghauts. According to Tulu traditions, after a quarrel with Brāhmans who used to come to him periodically from Ahi-Kshētra, Parasu Rāma procured new Brāhmans for the reclaimed tract by taking the nets of some fishermen, and making a number of Brāhmanical threads [204]with which he invested the fishermen, and thus turned them into Brāhmans, and retired to the mountains to meditate, after informing them that, if they were in distress, and called on him, he would come to their aid. After the lapse of some time, during which they suffered no distress, they were curious to know if Parasu Rāma would remember them, and called upon him in order to find out. He promptly appeared, but punished their thus mocking him by cursing them, and causing them to revert to their old status of Sudras.”


Does this indicate a once pescatarian diet of West coast brahmins?

Of different subsects of West coast brahmins of Goa, Karnataka, and Kerala only GSB eat Fish, among GSB Madhva Vaishnavite are Vegetarians.


The Saraswat Brahmins of the Konkan region eat fish as part of their diet.[8] Gaud Saraswats eat fish,[9][10][11] but Madhva Vaishnavite Gaud Saraswat Brahmins from coastal districts of Karnataka are vegetarians.[12][13]

Smartha brahmins of West Coast follow Shankaracharya while Smartha Gaud Saraswats follow Shri Goudapadacharya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudapada


they were followers of Monism or Advaita as preached by Shri Goudapadacharya

https://www.arcjournals.org/pdfs/ijhcs/v3-i1/4.pdf

Is it due to the later influence of Shankaracharya and Madhavacharya that the Vegetarian diet is followed now?

BMG
02-08-2020, 07:36 AM
@bmg what are your thoughts on the matter

Nambudiris along with shivalli ,kota ,Havyak and chitpavan make the major Brahmin community of the west coast . They all share the parashuram myth as well . They are part of one of the earliest Brahmin migration to south india. Their folklore says they came from ahichhatra which i think was one of the early major centre for Brahmins . The supposed migration might have started by 4th to 5th century AD . The earlier Brahmin class present in Kerala and Tamilnadu before may not have strictly followed the Vedic tradition or they might be of buddhist or any other Dravidian priestly traditions and they could have merged into incoming ahichhatra camp . Parappans mentioned in the sangam texts are said to be Brahmins. So my take is that early Tamil Brahmins would have common ancestry with nambudiris which doesn't mean they came from TN but they are part of ahichhatra camp . Bulk of TN Brahmins arrived later during medievial kingdoms . Nambudiris largely lack ancestry from these later Brahmins except few families who indeed claim to have migrated like one i know claim descent from Vaidiki Brahmins of Andhra .

If the Vedic shakhas followed by south indian Brahmins does give any clue there seems to be a variation between west coast and other brahmins . The west coast Brahmins mainly followed two shakhas . They were of Asvalayana Rigvedis and Boudhayana Yajurvedins of Taittiriya shakha . Chitpavans and Shivalli are mainly Asvalayana Rigvedis .Few Chitpavans follow other rigvedic traditions along with Boudhayana Yajurveda . The Goud Saraswats almost all follow Asvalayana shakha and majority of Havyaks follow Boudhayana tradition and most of the rest follow Asvalayana tradition.
The nambudiris are mostly Boudhayana Yajurvedins along with Rigvedis of both of Kousitaki and Asvalayana traditions. A minority of nambudiris,Shivalli along with Chozhiyars are Jaiminiya Samavedins.
On the other hand the Desasthas are mostly follow Shukla Madhyandhin Yajurveda along with Rigveda(don't know whether they follow Asvalayana ) . The Niyogi and Vaidiki Brahmins of Andhra mostly follow Apastamba sutra of Krishna Yajurvedic tradition . Iyers and Iyengars are also mostly Yajurvedins of Taittiriya Apastamba tradition but some are also Shukla Kanvas or Shukla Madhyandhins. Also among them are Asvalayana Rigvedis , Kauthuma Samavedins and some even follow atharvaveda shakhas which is rare in South India .
Since i am not a Brahmin and not even a hindu i may have understood it wrongly .Feel free to correct me .

discreetmaverick
02-10-2020, 06:53 PM
Bunts - Nairs, Shivalli Brahmins - Namboodhiri are not only the related castes between Coastal Karnataka and Kerala.

Billava - Thiyya/Ezhava, Ambalvasi - Devadiga etc. Even the relative populations are also similar.

Billavas are the largest caste, the second largest are the bunts.

It would be interesting to compare the related group's genetics. I suspect it would be similar.

It is similar in Goa as well, probably the whole of Konkan coast

Bunts - Naik Maratha, Billava - Bhandari ( where they are again single largest )

Naiks are designated as Maratha, Similarly, Bunts are considered Vokkaligas. In both cases as a sub-caste and have been endogamous.

South and North Canara doesn't exactly mean South Karnataka and North Karnataka, but South Coastal Karnataka and North Coastal Karnataka,

Things that are similar in western coast region - Culture, Caste dynamics, Food, genetics plus western ghats separates Coast from Inland but the difference is the language.

Could it be possible once the western coast spoke the same or similar languages? Now, Tulu is only left.

In the Kundapura region of Udupi ( Coastal Karnataka ) residents speak a dialect of Kannada called Kunda Kannada not spoken anywhere else, but it is believed they spoke Tulu before. So change might likely have happened during some Kannada dynasty.

Likewise, Malayalam which is part of Tamil- Kodugu is later entrant and replaced Tulu or Tulu related?

Was not sure whether to post this here or in South Asian regional languages thread? Since some of the related discussions had taken place here, so posted here.

parasar
02-18-2020, 05:45 PM
Numbers are from this study which vishankar has earlier shared on this thread
https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/137860

This data-set shows them skewed to L657.
"16 male representatives of Brahmin founder families of ancient vangors in the towns of Lotli and Kudtari of Salcete province provided cheek swabs under informed consent. Their DNA was analyzed and compared with controls as described in Section 2 and their identifying characteristics are summarized in Table 1. All GSB samples (save for one Q1a3 individual, who was not studied further) were mapped to the Z93 L342.2 subclade, and 12 males were, additionally, L657. Ten individuals were of the LPKSTR haplotype, based on STR profile."
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/651415/#supplementary-materials

ThaYamamoto
02-18-2020, 08:15 PM
Due to L-M357 being present in both Keralites and in the Irula, is its spread associated with the IranN/Zagrosians first contact with AASI? Is it still found in Iran?

Thomas48
02-24-2020, 11:26 PM
Razib Khan did a second post focusing on the Knanaya Community (I gave him 12 more samples). Interestingly the Kna's generally maintain Middle Eastern ancestry at the same rates as Jewish migrant groups in India (which is variable, some Knas and Jews maintain higher rates than others), likely because of rigorous cultural endogamy. One thing that I found rather interesting is that some Knanaya samples maintain nearly the same level of Middle Eastern ancestry as the Mumbai Jews. The Mumbai Jews arrived in India in the 18th century from the Middle East. I'm not sure if I'm comprehending this right but how is it possible that the Kna's who arrived sometime in the medieval era maintain almost the same rate as ME ancestry as the Mumbai Jews who arrived in the 18th century. Is this simply a feature of extreme endogamy among the Knanaya? Again this was not seen among all the Kna samples but only the samples who maintain highest rates. It makes sense that the Cochin Jews would maintain high percentages similar to the Mumbai Jews because to my knowledge even during the colonial era Middle Eastern Jews arrived to Kerala and admixed with the Cochini's but the Kna's dont claim that any Syrians joined the community after their arrival in the medieval era.

Link to the Razib's Second Post:
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/02/06/the-knanaya-of-kerala-do-seem-a-bit-more-near-eastern-than-other-st-thomas-christians/

Edit: Nvm! Though the Kna samples with the highest ME rates show almost a near Yemenite figure to the Mumbai Jews, the Mumbai Jews maintain a much higher Armenian component, didn’t notice this earlier.

BMG
02-26-2020, 05:54 PM
Razib Khan did a second post focusing on the Knanaya Community (I gave him 12 more samples). Interestingly the Kna's generally maintain Middle Eastern ancestry at the same rates as Jewish migrant groups in India (which is variable, some Knas and Jews maintain higher rates than others), likely because of rigorous cultural endogamy. One thing that I found rather interesting is that some Knanaya samples maintain nearly the same level of Middle Eastern ancestry as the Mumbai Jews. The Mumbai Jews arrived in India in the 18th century from the Middle East. I'm not sure if I'm comprehending this right but how is it possible that the Kna's who arrived sometime in the medieval era maintain almost the same rate as ME ancestry as the Mumbai Jews who arrived in the 18th century. Is this simply a feature of extreme endogamy among the Knanaya? Again this was not seen among all the Kna samples but only the samples who maintain highest rates. It makes sense that the Cochin Jews would maintain high percentages similar to the Mumbai Jews because to my knowledge even during the colonial era Middle Eastern Jews arrived to Kerala and admixed with the Cochini's but the Kna's dont claim that any Syrians joined the community after their arrival in the medieval era.

Link to the Razib's Second Post:
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/02/06/the-knanaya-of-kerala-do-seem-a-bit-more-near-eastern-than-other-st-thomas-christians/

Edit: Nvm! Though the Kna samples with the highest ME rates show almost a near Yemenite figure to the Mumbai Jews, the Mumbai Jews maintain a much higher Armenian component, didn’t notice this earlier.

No , the bnei Israel are not 18th century migrants but were identified as jews by David Rahabi ,a cochin jew of Baghdadi descent in 18th century . Prior to that they were existing as a hindu caste and were called shanivar teli . The jews migrated in 18th and 19th century to Mumbai are Baghdadi Jews who hardly mixed with bnei Israelis . They adopted British lifestyle and mingled with other European and Sephardic jews settled in Indian cities during colonial rule.

Thomas48
02-26-2020, 07:39 PM
No , the bnei Israel are not 18th century migrants but were identified as jews by David Rahabi ,a cochin jew of Baghdadi descent in 18th century . Prior to that they were existing as a hindu caste and were called shanivar teli . The jews migrated in 18th and 19th century to Mumbai are Baghdadi Jews who hardly mixed with bnei Israelis . They adopted British lifestyle and mingled with other European and Sephardic jews settled in Indian cities during colonial rule.

Didn’t know this, thank you!

thejkhan
02-26-2020, 07:44 PM
Nvm..

vishankar
03-13-2020, 05:27 PM
i have posted some new harappa results of my brother , a fellow nair pillai, a thiyya lady and an ezhava male on the post harappa results thread.

BMG
03-14-2020, 04:17 PM
i have posted some new harappa results of my brother , a fellow nair pillai, a thiyya lady and an ezhava male on the post harappa results thread.
In the oracles the ezhava came up as 50% gujarati patel 50% Sinhalese . IVC farmers mixed with srilankan buddhists . Srilankan origin theorists would be happy

vishankar
03-15-2020, 03:14 AM
In the oracles the ezhava came up as 50% gujarati patel 50% Sinhalese . IVC farmers mixed with srilankan buddhists . Srilankan origin theorists would be happy

Hi,
the ezhava and thiyya samples i have do have sinhalese in their top 10 oracle!!!....one nair pillai too had, he seems to be an outlier!

client
03-15-2020, 03:35 AM
Hi,
the ezhava and thiyya samples i have do have sinhalese in their top 10 oracle!!!....one nair pillai too had, he seems to be an outlier!

Sir this is because of their mid-low 50s "SI" and the presence of the "SE Asian".
There may be a real link, but we can't really be sure based on HarappaWorld oracles alone.

What about haplogroups, is there a link with them?

vishankar
03-16-2020, 04:59 PM
Hi, dear, I have not checked the haplogroups....you mean Y-DNA right?? and mt DNA...tOo expensive LOL))0

discreetmaverick
03-16-2020, 09:36 PM
This will likely be a similar analysis for Coorghis, Bunts and most Malabar Nairs and a non-majority of South Kerala Nairs (without Brahmin heritage) who resemble the hypothetical proto-Nair-Bunt UP low-mid caste substrate into Kerala coinciding with Tulu alphabet turnover and language shift from Tamil to Malayalam and Hindu cultural domination of Kerala from Agamic/Buddhist/Nasrani pre-dominance



The Tigalari-Malayalam script is called Western Grantha (west Tamil Nadu, Kerala). This type of Grantha was used by Cholas approximately from 650 CE to 950 CE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grantha_script#Western_Grantha

Isn't it reverse? Tilagari reached Tulunadu from Kerala.

BMG
03-17-2020, 04:34 PM
Post at phylogeographer regarding the Syrian Christian J-L283

https://phylogeographer.com/some-syrian-christians-of-india-descend-from-roman-era-levantine-fgc64029/

vishankar
03-20-2020, 12:44 PM
I am taking to this thread to show the superiority of Davidski's eurogenes -coordinates he provides and the infereneces derived, compared to the much used admixture calculator( even my go-to-calc) the Harappa World!.

for starters here is the harappa for my mom.....
36892


now here is Davidski's inferences, based on her coordinates-
target: _scaled
Distance: 2.1970% / 0.02196951
75.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
13.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
5.4 TJK_Sarazm_En
2.0 Jarawa
2.0 Levant_PPNB
1.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.8 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

vishankar
03-20-2020, 12:46 PM
another one-

ezhava male thodupuzha-

36893

now take his coordinates and Davidski's inferences...

4.0859% / 0.04085870
84.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.8 Jarawa
3.2 Levant_PPNB
1.8 WHG
0.8 TJK_Sarazm_En

vishankar
03-20-2020, 12:48 PM
Finally a Thiyya male from Payyanur-

36894.


his coordinate based inference from Davidski's-

Distance: 2.7401% / 0.02740115
84.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.4 Levant_PPNB
4.2 Jarawa
1.0 WHG

vishankar
03-20-2020, 12:54 PM
The point i wish to bring to the fore here is , looking at their Harappa, one would be tempted to state that all of them have steppe admixture, but the ancient admixture based coordinates clearly bring out the presence of sintashta only in the nair lady!( my mom).
Harappa suffers from being a mixture of both ancient and modern components!

I hope to bring out similar inferences when more of the raw data gets processed by Davidski!

discreetmaverick
03-24-2020, 07:05 PM
There aren't any really dark looking or different caste looking Palakkad Iyers. Iyers especially are used to multiple wives from different castes in the past. It might not have happened among Palakkad Iyers

Can you share source/s?

discreetmaverick
03-24-2020, 07:11 PM
Of course TN/AP Brahmins are varied I never implied they were a monolith and came together in one migration. I know a subset came from Gujarat

Which one?

tipirneni
03-24-2020, 09:15 PM
Can you share source/s?

How many Iyers do you know ? When you look at the data, you got to validate against the people too.

IF you look at the Iyer set on G25 in terms of diversity it probably covers whole of South India pretty full. when I checked my file against them, I was getting 1 or 2 % extra from distant Islands.

client
03-25-2020, 03:07 AM
How many Iyers do you know ? When you look at the data, you got to validate against the people too.

IF you look at the Iyer set on G25 in terms of diversity it probably covers whole of South India pretty full. when I checked my file against them, I was getting 1 or 2 % extra from distant Islands.

I'm not sure we're looking at the same dataset in this case, in terms of absolute PCA distances there is barely any variation along the AASI cline, meanwhile the Gujarati Brahmin dataset encompasses the entire Brahmin variation

Distance to: Chenchu
0.05926316 tipirneni_AGUser
0.07281610 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-20
0.07424476 Iyer:IR-1-20
0.07661713 Iyer:IR-1-19
0.08072567 Iyer:IR-1-2
0.08550528 Iyer:IR-1-9
0.08559532 Iyer:IR-1-21
0.08567250 Iyer:IR-1-1
0.08737884 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-15
0.08742138 Iyer:IR-1-14
0.08817123 Iyer:IR-1-5
0.08837343 Iyer:IR-1-11
0.08972420 Iyer:IR-1-22
0.09006179 Iyer:IR-1-10
0.09064511 Iyer:IR-1-7
0.09155015 Iyer:IR-1-18
0.09179281 Iyer:IR-1-17
0.09190122 Iyer:IR-1-13
0.09293854 Iyer:IR-1-12
0.09564256 Iyer:IR-1-6
0.09670017 Iyer:IR-1-8
0.09732340 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-19
0.09860515 Iyer:IR-1-15
0.09894509 Iyer:IR-1-4
0.10345140 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-3
0.12357778 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-12
0.12835237 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-21
0.12981446 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-6
0.13165634 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-9
0.13457647 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-18
0.13484534 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-10
0.13513296 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-1
0.13548855 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-2
0.13760069 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-4
0.13766231 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-14
0.13801607 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-5
0.13883513 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-8
0.14004259 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-11
0.14348373 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-16
0.15948109 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-17
0.16479652 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-13


And if Iyers were taking multiple wives from random castes, said random castes (or any caste) would be getting sizeable amounts of southern subgroup on 23andme, but Tamil(low 50 SI) castes for example, get null-negligible amounts.

discreetmaverick
03-25-2020, 10:22 AM
In Tamil literature of the Sangam era 50 BC - 250 CE, there is mention of Brahman immigrants from the north who wore their tufts to the front (purvashikhas). These are brahmans, predominantly of the Vasishtha gotra who are documented in Vedic literature as wearing their kapardi on the right front of the heads.




I guess I'll take neutral analysis of scriptures in published articles(by those who have spent their lives studying this)+external evidence

One subset of TN Brahmins is what Nambudiris are descended from, and the later subsets are from various places(for more detail refer to the paper I posted). This doesn't mean they're not related to "Havyaks" or whatever(I haven't said that anywhere).
Nambudiri ritualism is quite similar to Dikshitars and Soliyars from what I have read, but maybe not to the majority of Tamil Brahmin sects that are Aparashika.

Also from Wikipedia


Rigveda, the Śākala recension which is the only extant recension of the Rigveda across India. The Nambudiris follow both the Āśvalāyana and Śāṅkhāyana Śrauta Sūtras. The latter, called the Kauṣītaki tradition among Nambudiris is restricted to them.
Yajurveda, the Taittirīya śākhā with the Baudhāyana, Vādhūla and Āgniveśya srauta sutras.
Samaveda in the Jaiminīya recension, which is elsewhere found only among the Śōḻiya Brahmans.



Furthermore from
On the Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography

Vashista Gotra is found among all west coast brahmins - From Chitapavan to Namboodiri

Jaimini is also found among Shivalli Brahmins

36945

https://shivallibrahmins.com/family-names/list-of-all-shivalli-family-names/

tipirneni
03-25-2020, 02:10 PM
I'm not sure we're looking at the same dataset in this case, in terms of absolute PCA distances there is barely any variation along the AASI cline, meanwhile the Gujarati Brahmin dataset encompasses the entire Brahmin variation

Distance to: Chenchu
0.05926316 tipirneni_AGUser
0.07281610 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-20
0.07424476 Iyer:IR-1-20
0.07661713 Iyer:IR-1-19
0.08072567 Iyer:IR-1-2
0.08550528 Iyer:IR-1-9
0.08559532 Iyer:IR-1-21
0.08567250 Iyer:IR-1-1
0.08737884 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-15
0.08742138 Iyer:IR-1-14
0.08817123 Iyer:IR-1-5
0.08837343 Iyer:IR-1-11
0.08972420 Iyer:IR-1-22
0.09006179 Iyer:IR-1-10
0.09064511 Iyer:IR-1-7
0.09155015 Iyer:IR-1-18
0.09179281 Iyer:IR-1-17
0.09190122 Iyer:IR-1-13
0.09293854 Iyer:IR-1-12
0.09564256 Iyer:IR-1-6
0.09670017 Iyer:IR-1-8
0.09732340 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-19
0.09860515 Iyer:IR-1-15
0.09894509 Iyer:IR-1-4
0.10345140 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-3
0.12357778 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-12
0.12835237 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-21
0.12981446 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-6
0.13165634 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-9
0.13457647 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-18
0.13484534 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-10
0.13513296 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-1
0.13548855 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-2
0.13760069 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-4
0.13766231 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-14
0.13801607 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-5
0.13883513 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-8
0.14004259 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-11
0.14348373 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-16
0.15948109 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-17
0.16479652 Brahmin_Gujarat:GBR-13


And if Iyers were taking multiple wives from random castes, said random castes (or any caste) would be getting sizeable amounts of southern subgroup on 23andme, but Tamil(low 50 SI) castes for example, get null-negligible amounts.

Some of the real native looking specimens I don't see them in the Iyer subset available public. In terms of variation, Iyers have big range from Keralite looking to Kannada looking, Maratha Smartha looking, Telugu H1 like looking, North looking, Palakad, Tamil looking etc... It ll probably happened over thousands of years but again caste endogamy which tends to lessen those outside mix.

Gujarat Brahmin specimens probably better represent their population

discreetmaverick
03-25-2020, 07:57 PM
this was very surprising,,... as the recent history of nambudiri admixture is not there , unlike my father whose grandpa was a nambudiri, my mom's family has its root in cherthala/allapuzha with connection to madoms- brahmin agrahara type settlements....and a vague tulu brahmin( embran ) connection!
PS- one of her matches on family tree DNA is Adiga- Tulu Shivalli brahmin!

Adiga Surname is used by Kannada Kota Brahmin, though considered with a subgroup of Shivallu brahmin there are differences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kota_Brahmins

26284729292
03-25-2020, 08:04 PM
Some of the real native looking specimens I don't see them in the Iyer subset available public. In terms of variation, Iyers have big range from Keralite looking to Kannada looking, Maratha Smartha looking, Telugu H1 like looking, North looking, Palakad, Tamil looking etc... It ll probably happened over thousands of years but again caste endogamy which tends to lessen those outside mix.

Gujarat Brahmin specimens probably better represent their population

Are you saying that we don't have the samples publicly available or that they haven't been sampled?

tipirneni
03-25-2020, 11:56 PM
Are you saying that we don't have the samples publicly available or that they haven't been sampled?

I am of opinion that The sampling done for the whole group didn't cover a lot of outlier like groups withing Iyers.

26284729292
03-25-2020, 11:59 PM
I am of opinion that The sampling done for the whole group didn't cover a lot of outlier like groups withing Iyers.

They do span a lot of regions. It’s certainly possible. I already talked about my “urban vs rural” SI Brahmin theory. We need more sampling to see how true it is...

discreetmaverick
03-26-2020, 03:28 AM
They do span a lot of regions. It’s certainly possible. I already talked about my “urban vs rural” SI Brahmin theory. We need more sampling to see how true it is...

Could you share the link to that page?

26284729292
03-26-2020, 03:29 AM
Could you share the link to that page?

I'll PM you...

client
03-26-2020, 08:34 AM
Vashista Gotra is found among all west coast brahmins - From Chitapavan to Namboodiri

I am pretty sure it is found in the east coast as well, but I think it is more common in the western side of India in general.
I recall a Tamil Brahmin member called Vasishta on other forums with Y-DNA G2a3b1(I think)


Jaimini is also found among Shivalli Brahmins

36945

https://shivallibrahmins.com/family-names/list-of-all-shivalli-family-names/
They may all be related to Choliyars

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____



There aren't any really dark looking or different caste looking Palakkad Iyers. Iyers especially are used to multiple wives from different castes in the past. It might not have happened among Palakkad Iyers


Some of the real native looking specimens I don't see them in the Iyer subset available public. In terms of variation, Iyers have big range from Keralite looking to Kannada looking, Maratha Smartha looking, Telugu H1 like looking, North looking, Palakad, Tamil looking etc... It ll probably happened over thousands of years but again caste endogamy which tends to lessen those outside mix.

Gujarat Brahmin specimens probably better represent their population

I suppose your entire assessment is based on phenotype?

Here is what Western Anthropologists studying Palakkad Iyers said(will remove if in violation of ToS, let me know) in contrast to that


https://scontent.fbom19-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/90842804_221829669198083_3763952692167180288_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=JauA-QDBI2wAX8xBpSx&_nc_ht=scontent.fbom19-1.fna&oh=28a0687a57c551b85f8cc821720d1ea0&oe=5EA16442

https://scontent.fbom19-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/91070149_1137654966573576_1294691563229675520_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=Jl1F4-bi8PIAX_aaNHx&_nc_ht=scontent.fbom19-2.fna&oh=1f9c25dd1ed9ae7aeca663ad72133828&oe=5EA16AFE


admittedly this is very unscientific.

I think there could be subsect and maybe regional variation since Iyer is basically a title. On G25 there are peculiar samples like IR-14 who doesn't seem more AHG shifted than the average but seems to lack/have very little Steppic ancestry, while some have a reasonably high Steppe:Iran ratio.

on gedmatch(I can PM the kit numbers) I recall an Iyer kit with for eg 39% SI(unsure if recently mixed), and another Tamil Brahmin sounding kit with 54% SI(and 6% NE Euro). The mode is probably 47%.

discreetmaverick
03-26-2020, 04:33 PM
I am pretty sure it is found in the east coast as well, but I think it is more common in the western side of India in general.
I recall a Tamil Brahmin member called Vasishta on other forums with Y-DNA G2a3b1(I think)

They may all be related to Choliyars


you mean a Tamil brahmin with vasishta gotta with Y-DNA G2a3b1?

Somayaji- Families who have performed Somayaga

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthanika_Brahmins


Somayaji (Telugu: సోమయాజి) is a title within the Brahmin community for those that perform the Somayaga srauta ritual, or descendants of such people. The surname is most commonly seen amongst Nambudiri Brahmins from Kerala and Telugu Vaidiki Brahmins

Somiaya surname is also used by Lohana

Kirit Somiaya - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirit_Somaiya

Not sure if these communities also follow Jaimini shakha


Jaimini was an ancient Indian scholar who founded the
Mīmāṃsā school of Hindu philosophy. He was a disciple of sage Veda Vyasa, the son of Parashara. Traditionally attributed to be the author of the Mimamsa Sutras [2][3] and Jaimini Sutras,[4][5] he is estimated to have lived around the 4th-century BCE.[1]

So, it is a school of thought, it is not like sect anyone could follow Jaimini or Mimamsa. Some of those who were following Ashwalyana or Boudayana can switch over to Jaimini shaka

parasar
03-26-2020, 08:16 PM
I am pretty sure it is found in the east coast as well, but I think it is more common in the western side of India in general.
I recall a Tamil Brahmin member called Vasishta on other forums with Y-DNA G2a3b1(I think)

...

Don't recall his Y line, but even though he went by that moniker, his gotr was not Vasishth.

Thomas48
03-26-2020, 09:18 PM
Hey guys so I ordered a Q backbone Y-DNA test from FtDNA for my Q-M242. Turns out my Q-M242 became Q-Y4801.

parasar
03-26-2020, 09:28 PM
Hey guys so I ordered a Q backbone Y-DNA test from FtDNA for my Q-M242. Turns out my Q-M242 became Q-Y4801.

Appears to be a very old line in South Asia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2659/

tipirneni
03-27-2020, 12:32 AM
Appears to be a very old line in South Asia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2659/

I suspect this is the Chalcolithic migration spread along Arabian sea into Srilanka & S Coast migration then spread along with H1. There are many AP Q clades, those I suspect some of them may be within this branch

BMG
03-27-2020, 02:32 AM
Hey guys so I ordered a Q backbone Y-DNA test from FtDNA for my Q-M242. Turns out my Q-M242 became Q-Y4801.

If you are in the same line as other knanaya and if 23andme designation is correct you might belong to

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L939/

BMG
03-27-2020, 02:36 AM
Appears to be a very old line in South Asia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y2659/

With the exception of Z5902 subclade none of the other look like old south asian lines . He most probably is L939 which is 5400 years old as per yfull

discreetmaverick
03-27-2020, 08:01 PM
Don't recall his Y line, but even though he went by that moniker, his gotr was not Vasishth.

Choliyal though seem to have Vasishta gotra, as per this blog post

There common Gotra of choliyal include Bharadvaja, Atreya, Vasishta, Angirasa, Kashyapa,Koushika , Rowshayadana ,Agestaya and Srivasta.

https://sholiyar.blogspot.com/2008/11/sholiyar-or-chozhiyas-or-choliyal.html

discreetmaverick
03-28-2020, 05:34 AM
I'll PM you...

You don't seem to have space in your PM

26284729292
03-28-2020, 08:27 AM
You don't seem to have space in your PM

Will clear!

discreetmaverick
03-29-2020, 09:57 PM
The point i wish to bring to the fore here is , looking at their Harappa, one would be tempted to state that all of them have steppe admixture, but the ancient admixture based coordinates clearly bring out the presence of sintashta only in the nair lady!( my mom).
Harappa suffers from being a mixture of both ancient and modern components!

I hope to bring out similar inferences when more of the raw data gets processed by Davidski!

After looking at your G25 results between Ezhawa and Nair, Correct me if I am wrong, It looks like Nairs are derived from Ezhava who later received additional aryan/saka admixture to account for Sinhasta. Is it?

in Tulunadu/ Kerala , Billava/Ezhava are the single largest caste, popularly classified as Toddy tapping, while large section are involved in farming. Farming communities are the single largest in almost every state.

Maybe you classify Ezhava are farming caste, but I was confused with toddy tapping. Toppy tapping may be a side profession.

I am thinking if Bunts/Billava and Nair/Ezhava are like Kuli Maratha/Kunbi - *(Kshytria/Warrior)/Farming

Bunts/Nair/Kuli Maratha are classified as Forward caste while Billava/Ezhava/Kunbi come under OBC

Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are seen as one due to politicians, especially, Kuli Maratha politicians selling Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are the same caste for vote bank.

Some of which are discussed here,

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14820-Gedmatch-Harrapaworld-and-oracle-results-for-gujarati-patel&p=649381&viewfull=1#post649381

tipirneni
03-29-2020, 11:04 PM
After looking at your G25 results between Ezhawa and Nair, Correct me if I am wrong, It looks like Nairs are derived from Ezhava who later received additional aryan/saka admixture to account for Sinhasta. Is it?

in Tulunadu/ Kerala , Billava/Ezhava are the single largest caste, popularly classified as Toddy tapping, while large section are involved in farming. Farming communities are the single largest in almost every state.

Maybe you classify Ezhava are farming caste, but I was confused with toddy tapping. Toppy tapping may be a side profession.

I am thinking if Bunts/Billava and Nair/Ezhava are like Kuli Maratha/Kunbi - *(Kshytria/Warrior)/Farming

Bunts/Nair/Kuli Maratha are classified as Forward caste while Billava/Ezhava/Kunbi come under OBC

Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are seen as one due to politicians, especially, Kuli Maratha politicians selling Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are the same caste for vote bank.

Some of which are discussed here,

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14820-Gedmatch-Harrapaworld-and-oracle-results-for-gujarati-patel&p=649381&viewfull=1#post649381

Have you attended any of those caste meeting or officiated any marriages between those communities ? How can you guess that they are separate ? There are some marriages going on there. You have to try get an official view from those groups before coming to quick conclusions based on third party biased views. This is especially important since many groups are going above their means to show up their importance.

vishankar
03-30-2020, 04:21 AM
After looking at your G25 results between Ezhawa and Nair, Correct me if I am wrong, It looks like Nairs are derived from Ezhava who later received additional aryan/saka admixture to account for Sinhasta. Is it?

in Tulunadu/ Kerala , Billava/Ezhava are the single largest caste, popularly classified as Toddy tapping, while large section are involved in farming. Farming communities are the single largest in almost every state.

Maybe you classify Ezhava are farming caste, but I was confused with toddy tapping. Toppy tapping may be a side profession.

I am thinking if Bunts/Billava and Nair/Ezhava are like Kuli Maratha/Kunbi - *(Kshytria/Warrior)/Farming

Bunts/Nair/Kuli Maratha are classified as Forward caste while Billava/Ezhava/Kunbi come under OBC

Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are seen as one due to politicians, especially, Kuli Maratha politicians selling Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are the same caste for vote bank.

Some of which are discussed here,

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14820-Gedmatch-Harrapaworld-and-oracle-results-for-gujarati-patel&p=649381&viewfull=1#post649381


that is one of the theories....but i would put in this fashion
nair=IVC+AASI+Steppe( from vedic brahmin+ or- sakas)
ezhava= IVC+AASI+ minimal steppe( not completely absent,but very minute!
they definitely have different histories,if you go by the vaddakan pattukal, keralolpathi...i mean migration histories,
and on my dataset the thiyya( the corresponding castee to ezhava in north kerala, has sinhalese in their top 10 oracles)
bunts - the 2 male samples i have ( are both having kerala nair in their top 10)

discreetmaverick
03-30-2020, 05:05 AM
Have you attended any of those caste meeting or officiated any marriages between those communities ? How can you guess that they are separate ? There are some marriages going on there. You have to try get an official view from those groups before coming to quick conclusions based on third party biased views. This is especially important since many groups are going above their means to show up their importance.

Have you?

Are you saying Bunts and Billava are same caste? Similarly, Nair and Ezhava are same caste? Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are same ?

you yourself liked/thanked for this post


Marathas are an amalgamation of tribes. The original 96 kuli (clan) Maratha included various lower caste groups like shepherds and peasants (including "kunbis"), that had served in the armies of the Deccan sultanates and Mughals, which separated them from their "civilian" counterparts. Nowadays, Marathas are still a separate group from most Kunbis, but politicians from major parties have tried to conflate interior Kunbis in Maharasthra and Marathas as being the same to increase their vote bank.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14820-Gedmatch-Harrapaworld-and-oracle-results-for-gujarati-patel&p=649325&viewfull=1#post649325

"Marathas and Kunbis are not the same but are two distinct classes. The Maratha community dominates politics, whereas we are lagging behind. Marathas also don't inter-marry with Kunbis," Patil charged.

https://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-kunbis-oppose-obc-status-for-marathas-2656204

Which of these groups is going above means to show their importance? I mentioned it nowhere.

tipirneni
03-30-2020, 02:00 PM
Have you?

Are you saying Bunts and Billava are same caste? Similarly, Nair and Ezhava are same caste? Kuli Maratha and Kunbi are same ?

you yourself liked/thanked for this post



https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14820-Gedmatch-Harrapaworld-and-oracle-results-for-gujarati-patel&p=649325&viewfull=1#post649325

"Marathas and Kunbis are not the same but are two distinct classes. The Maratha community dominates politics, whereas we are lagging behind. Marathas also don't inter-marry with Kunbis," Patil charged.

https://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-kunbis-oppose-obc-status-for-marathas-2656204

Which of these groups is going above means to show their importance? I mentioned it nowhere.

Most of the stuff I have written in depth is first hand, meaning I have seen the social groups, how they intermarry and their associations. I don't want to spread slander saying some one is OBC or big caste with out even seeing them first hand or attending their meeting. I have seen the pics of Maratha andolan where even Kunbis participated. Similarly some small caste groups spend millions on putting out nice pamplets which might not be true. Billava have similar H1a clade to other bigger castes, I noticed on FTDNA few of them, which might be due to matrilineal society but still in modern day same clade mean same people.

discreetmaverick
03-30-2020, 04:44 PM
Most of the stuff I have written in depth is first hand, meaning I have seen the social groups, how they intermarry and their associations. I don't want to spread slander saying some one is OBC or big caste with out even seeing them first hand or attending their meeting. I have seen the pics of Maratha andolan where even Kunbis participated. Similarly some small caste groups spend millions on putting out nice pamplets which might not be true. Billava have similar H1a clade to other bigger castes, I noticed on FTDNA few of them, which might be due to matrilineal society but still in modern day same clade mean same people.

Forward caste is not a big caste or OBC is not a slander. It is based on Government classification. Govt has/had not given OBC status to Kuli Maratha/ Bunts/ Nair either they did not seek or were not eligible. Now, Kuli Maratha are seeking for it or got it. They all claim ruling clans in respective regions or kshatriya type.

Better read and seek clarifications before coming to conclusions. Don't put words in someone's mouth.

Whatever you say or anyone says cannot be taken as a final word. Everyone needs to share evidence.

vishankar
03-30-2020, 05:18 PM
Forward caste is not a big caste or OBC is not a slander. It is based on Government classification. Govt has/had not given OBC status to Kuli Maratha/ Bunts/ Nair either they did not seek or were not eligible. Now, Kuli Maratha are seeking for it or got it. They all claim ruling clans in respective regions or kshatriya type.

Better read and seek clarifications before coming to conclusions. Don't put words in someone's mouth.

Whatever you say or anyone says cannot be taken as a final word. Everyone needs to share evidence.

Relax Guys!!...cool down)))

ThaYamamoto
03-30-2020, 05:26 PM
Is the L-M357 found in Kerala analogous to that found in Balochis/Pashtuns/Jatts ?

Rustyshakelford
03-31-2020, 12:01 AM
Post at phylogeographer regarding the Syrian Christian J-L283

https://phylogeographer.com/some-syrian-christians-of-india-descend-from-roman-era-levantine-fgc64029/

Seems to be found in Cochin Jews too, although different subclade
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

BMG
03-31-2020, 03:45 PM
Seems to be found in Cochin Jews too, although different subclade
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/
I have already mentioned it in this thread once . That sample seems to a paradesi jew since that subclade is a Ashkenazi levite one .

vishankar
03-31-2020, 06:46 PM
Is the L-M357 found in Kerala analogous to that found in Balochis/Pashtuns/Jatts ?

Hi...
unfortunately in nair dataset on ft tree dna there are no L.
user bmoney is L, but not M357-but m295 ( according to his profile)...you may like to check with him!
regards

parasar
03-31-2020, 08:24 PM
Hi...
unfortunately in nair dataset on ft tree dna there are no L.
user bmoney is L, but not M357-but m295 ( according to his profile)...you may like to check with him!
regards

That is suprising considering the significant presence of L on the SW coast. How about the Nambuthiris?

vishankar
04-01-2020, 02:42 AM
That is suprising considering the significant presence of L on the SW coast. How about the Nambuthiris?

hi....i have a few , but the cost of y-testing is prohibitive!!!....i may have to take Wilhelms assitance( from dnagenics.com) ...he will do it cheap!
will get back to you with the results!

BMG
04-01-2020, 03:13 PM
Is the L-M357 found in Kerala analogous to that found in Balochis/Pashtuns/Jatts ?

We have only one Kerala muslim and an irula sample who have tested for subclade

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/

ERR1395550 is the irula sample and YF67140 is the Kerala muslim .

BMG
04-01-2020, 03:36 PM
We have only one Kerala muslim and an irula sample who have tested for subclade

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/

ERR1395550 is the irula sample and YF67140 is the Kerala muslim .

For comparison ERR327412 is Kalasha ,ERR1395548 and ERR1395614 are Pamiri Tajiks , ERR1019081 is baloch ,ERR445341 and ERR445343 are Punjabi sikh ,ERR445270 is Konkani . The Lankan samples are srilankan tamils .There is an Afghan sample from Kandahar as well which is close to baloch sample .

ThaYamamoto
04-01-2020, 03:50 PM
For comparison ERR327412 is Kalasha ,ERR1395548 and ERR1395614 are Pamiri Tajiks , ERR1019081 is baloch ,ERR445341 and ERR445343 are Punjabi sikh ,ERR445270 is Konkani . The Lankan samples are srilankan tamils .There is an Afghan sample from Kandahar as well which is close to baloch sample .

Fascinating, thanks. I myself have the subclade, but where it comes from is anyones guess. Im assuming Baloch but South India is also a very likely possibility.

BMG
04-01-2020, 04:26 PM
Fascinating, thanks. I myself have the subclade, but where it comes from is anyones guess. Im assuming Baloch but South India is also a very likely possibility.
What is your paternal ancestry ? My maternal grandfather is also L-M357 .

vishankar
04-03-2020, 02:28 PM
Fascinating, thanks. I myself have the subclade, but where it comes from is anyones guess. Im assuming Baloch but South India is also a very likely possibility.

Hi..i just saw the haplogroup derivations from seema nair's paper-
1) brahmin-1/3 ( one out of 3 samples was Hap L.
2)nair- 7/37 had haplogroup L.
3) ezhava-15/110 had hap L.
4) christians( RC)-nil out of 7 samples.
5)muslims- 1/9.

i had used the haplogroup predictor on the internet,but i did not go deeper into subclade derivation!

vishankar
04-03-2020, 08:10 PM
here is some more data on presence of L-M20, an unpublished thesis, retrieved from shodhganga.....possibly there were deficiencies in the work, as discussed on this forum earlier!

1)pulaya- 4% of L-M20.

2)saliya- 18%.
3) thiyya- 16.
4)nair- 16.
5) vannar- 20.
5)kerala brahmin- 22.
6)mappila- 22.
7)kammalar- 32.
8) maniyani- 39.

the last mentioned couple of castes are artisans( carpenters) and milkmen.shepherds...

Orchid
04-20-2020, 10:49 PM
whats interesting is his Malayali % in 23andme. its lower than mine.

I would have assumed the inverse since he is Thiyya

It seems Syrian Christians (Malayali sample in 23andme) have either/or/both a high caste Hindu signature or some Middle-East pseudo ANF signature that Ezhava/Thiyyas do not score. Also there seems to be a lot of heterogeneity in Ezhava/Thiyya results


Hi Bmoney do most of the Nair samples on your 23andMe have much larger Malayali subgroup % than this low scoring Thiyya individual? Thanks

vishankar
04-25-2020, 06:29 AM
i am posting the link of the harappa score of an an ezhava gentleman from thrissur who was gracious enough to let me access his GEDMATCH and raw DNA .https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page327&highlight=kerala&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=9b4ff7b6d22818c6cfa2e4c56e579c 0158859267-1587795440-0-AaYBPBq5oo0y7s3IwppI-QFbJgo_Q23BWxBsFBsdO_h3HQoxo759XTsVI6wmc3AjEzzZPdP pR8hX53rkYWVVxDxlbCuVg1MD4VsLT9YLfUrcKQ3_yH8sfwYct _jyFhS7mtglwkpXtwjdrGun_fuFH7UxSWVtULcAhe14D05mZ-jAAobf7sBb2Sx0qh45qBQbkTaq-OUjA4AOCJyTF0HNDy9WDoLEbStBm1cdjduW7BcDGZ6f1-ljE3VpxI2eL0DwfofWlHFIcBMmQW3tjdqpQzNDq16zWx9N8RlD 83MF-dFR112OFMdjYLdr0v0DwaUSKgs1_cGEwxC4KeQD-5taODIkwmC3QZzn5z01e2s31lGzQjJEA29d8-pP83NrMKtPfQ

discreetmaverick
04-30-2020, 05:15 PM
Vashista Gotra is found among all west coast brahmins - From Chitapavan to Namboodiri




I am pretty sure it is found in the east coast as well, but I think it is more common in the western side of India in general.
I recall a Tamil Brahmin member called Vasishta on other forums with Y-DNA G2a3b1(I think)





Don't recall his Y line, but even though he went by that moniker, his gotr was not Vasishth.


Choliyal though seem to have Vasishta gotra, as per this blog post

There common Gotra of choliyal include Bharadvaja, Atreya, Vasishta, Angirasa, Kashyapa,Koushika , Rowshayadana ,Agestaya and Srivasta.

https://sholiyar.blogspot.com/2008/11/sholiyar-or-chozhiyas-or-choliyal.html




Vashishta: Vashishta, Shaktya, Parashar


Vasista Gotra Pravara : Vashishta: Vashishta, Shaktya, Parashar ( I believe this is in North /Centrel/ East India, others can correct me )

Vashishta gotra pravara of Chitpavan brahmins - Vaasishtha: Vaasishtha Indrapramada Bharadwasu

Vashishta gotra pravara of Shivhalli Brahmins - Vashista: Vashista-Maitraavaruna-Kaundinya

Vashishta gotra pravara of Namboodiri Brahmins- Vaasishtam, Indrapradamam, Aabharaswath


It is surprising that Pravara of Vasshita gotra is actually pravara of Kaundinya gotra among other sects, that is likely in among rest of India as well. that means Vasista gotra doesn't exist among Shivalli brahmins

Sources are Chitpavan and Shivalli is quite solid with surname, gotra and pravara, while Namboodiri one probably needs confirmation if someone is aware of gotra and pravara of Namboodiri can confirm it.

As Pravara are different for chitpavan and Namboodir and Wiki article pravara for Vasishta are not the same. However,

Vasista gotra pravara : Vashishta, Shaktya, Parashar seems to be accurate as Shaktya was son of Vashista and Parashar was son of Shaktya and grand son of Vashista.

Other one found among Chitpavan and Namboodiri - Vaasishtha: Vaasishtha Indrapramada Bharadwasu and Vaasishtam, Indrapradamam, Aabharaswath respectively.

Could not find anything about Indrapramada, but wisdomlib mentions pramada was son of Vasista, no info available on Bharadwasu. Similarly no info Aabharaswath as well.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pramada

Could not find pravara for choliyar or any other southern brahmin subsects.

Vasista gotra of North/ Centrel/Central and South may or may be not same, because of difference in pravara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravaras

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aakti_Mahar%E1%B9%A3i

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashara

http://www.nasikchitpavan.org/gotras.php

http://shivallibrahmins.com/family-names/list-of-all-shivalli-family-names/

https://www.namboothiri.com/articles/identification.htm

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pramada

parasar
04-30-2020, 05:55 PM
...

Could not find anything about Indrapramada, but wisdomlib mentions pramada was son of Vasista ...

...
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/indrapramati

Thomas48
05-06-2020, 09:20 PM
Hey guys, hope you've been well with everything that's going on. Here's a Kerala Mappila sample I received recently.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.65
2 Baloch 34.54
3 Caucasian 5.44
4 SW-Asian 3.07
5 Siberian 2.60
6 NE-Euro 2.46
7 NE-Asian 1.75


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 kerala-christian_harappa @ 2.565196
2 rajasthani_harappa @ 3.342359
3 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 4.727886
4 up_harappa @ 4.884918
5 kerala_harappa @ 4.976520
6 ap-hyderabad_harappa @ 5.265058
7 meghawal_metspalu @ 5.290564
8 ap-brahmin_xing @ 5.292882
9 maharashtrian_harappa @ 5.344755
10 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.379262
11 kerala-nair_harappa @ 5.393868
12 tn-brahmin_xing @ 5.480040
13 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 5.555285
14 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 5.575864
15 tamil_harappa @ 5.641292
16 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 5.959555
17 kerala-muslim_harappa @ 6.076047
18 goan_harappa @ 6.194246
19 bihari_harappa @ 6.253580
20 lambadi_metspalu @ 6.309537

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% kerala-christian_harappa +50% rajasthani_harappa @ 2.499174


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% ap-hyderabad_harappa +25% kerala-brahmin_harappa +25% kerala-christian_harappa @ 2.280115


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 ap-reddy_harappa + naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.040520
2 ap-hyderabad_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.087772
3 kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.145751
4 naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.205192
5 kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa + tamil_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.208431
6 balochi_hgdp + maharashtrian_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.223042
7 balochi_hgdp + meghawal_reich + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.225031
8 kerala-christian_harappa + naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.232435
9 ap-reddy_harappa + sindhi_harappa + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + tamil_harappa @ 2.240489
10 ap-reddy_harappa + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa + tamil-nadar_harappa @ 2.246064
11 ap-reddy_harappa + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.261259
12 ap-reddy_harappa + kerala-muslim_harappa + naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa @ 2.262614
13 balochi_hgdp + rajasthani_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.264611
14 ap-reddy_harappa + naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa + south-african-indian_harappa @ 2.265949
15 ap-reddy_harappa + kurumba_metspalu + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.267951
16 ap-hyderabad_harappa + ap-hyderabad_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + kerala-christian_harappa @ 2.280115
17 balochi_hgdp + karnataka-brahmin_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.285937
18 ap-hyderabad_harappa + kerala-brahmin_harappa + rajasthani_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.288944
19 andhra-pradesh_harappa + naidu_reich + sindhi_harappa + tamil_harappa @ 2.289113
20 balochi_hgdp + bihari-muslim_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa + tamil-vishwakarma_harappa @ 2.289189

tipirneni
05-07-2020, 05:05 PM
The following kerala samples match me on GED

Nair
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.97
2 Baloch 37.27
3 Caucasian 6.06
4 NE-Euro 2.76
5 Papuan 1.15
6 SE-Asian 0.86
7 Siberian 0.44
8 Pygmy 0.25
9 E-African 0.12
10 Mediterranean 0.09
11 Beringian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 2.98
2 rajasthani (harappa) 4.07
3 kerala-christian (harappa) 4.47
4 kerala-nair (harappa) 4.48
5 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.51
6 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.56
7 ap-brahmin (xing) 4.82
8 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 4.87
9 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.87
10 ap-reddy (harappa) 5.01
11 karnataka (harappa) 5.38
12 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 5.56
13 tharu (metspalu) 5.58
14 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.71
15 up (harappa) 5.82
16 tamil (harappa) 6.05
17 meghawal (reich) 6.15
18 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 6.19
19 velama (metspalu) 6.19
20 gujarati (harappa) 6.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.8% velama (metspalu) + 24.2% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 1.54
2 74.3% velama (reich) + 25.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.54
3 83.5% velama (metspalu) + 16.5% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.56
4 79.3% velama (metspalu) + 20.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 1.64
5 74.9% velama (metspalu) + 25.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.66
6 73.5% velama (reich) + 26.5% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 1.7
7 82.5% velama (metspalu) + 17.5% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.73
8 73.9% velama (reich) + 26.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 1.74
9 79.4% velama (reich) + 20.6% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.74
10 75% velama (reich) + 25% punjabi (harappa) @ 1.81
11 58.9% tn-brahmin (xing) + 41.1% velama (reich) @ 1.84
12 78.3% velama (metspalu) + 21.7% kashmiri (harappa) @ 1.85
13 74.8% velama (metspalu) + 25.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.86
14 75.2% velama (metspalu) + 24.8% punjabi (harappa) @ 1.88
15 77.3% velama (metspalu) + 22.7% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 1.9
16 79.8% velama (metspalu) + 20.2% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.94
17 77.2% velama (reich) + 22.8% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.95
18 80.3% velama (reich) + 19.7% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.96
19 59.4% vysya (reich) + 40.6% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 1.96
20 80.6% velama (metspalu) + 19.4% sindhi (harappa) @ 1.98

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++
1 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + vysya_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.363206
2 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.441601
3 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + vysya_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.459393
4 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + vysya_reich + vysya_reich @ 1.460483
5 kashmiri-pandit_reich + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.484008
6 singapore-indian-c_sgvp + velama_reich + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.493606
7 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.495257
8 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_reich @ 1.512681
9 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + velama_reich + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.514230
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.526239
11 kashmiri-pandit_reich + velama_metspalu + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.527426
12 kashmiri-pandit_reich + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.552323
13 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kurumba_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.578179
14 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + sakilli_chaubey + velama_metspalu @ 1.578478
15 singapore-indian-c_sgvp + velama_metspalu + velama_reich + velama_reich @ 1.581234
16 gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + piramalai-kallar_metspalu + vysya_reich @ 1.588710
17 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + vysya_reich @ 1.590063
18 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + singapore-indian-a_sgvp + vysya_reich @ 1.611337
19 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + sakilli_chaubey + velama_reich @ 1.627478
20 punjabi-brahmin_harappa + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu + velama_metspalu @ 1.643943


Namboodri

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.17
2 meghawal (reich) 4.7
3 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.77
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.82
5 gujarati (harappa) 4.97
6 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.1
7 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.21
8 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.52
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.53
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.97
11 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.11
12 rajasthani (harappa) 6.43
13 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.73
14 kerala-christian (harappa) 7.18
15 bihari-muslim (harappa) 7.39
16 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.53
17 vaish (reich) 7.75
18 up (harappa) 8.41
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.81
20 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% karnataka (harappa) + 45.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.27
2 81.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 18.2% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.3
3 53.5% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.41
4 58.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 41.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 2.5
5 54% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.58
6 60.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 39.6% vysya (reich) @ 2.61
7 50.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 49.2% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.62
8 83.7% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 16.3% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.62
9 56.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 43.4% kurumba (metspalu) @ 2.62
10 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 2.63
11 57.9% karnataka (harappa) + 42.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.64
12 55.8% punjabi-arain (xing) + 44.2% dusadh (metspalu) @ 2.73
13 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% hallaki (reich) @ 2.73
14 69.4% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 30.6% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.75
15 54.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 45.6% lodi (reich) @ 2.75
16 51.7% velama (metspalu) + 48.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.76
17 55.7% sindhi (hgdp) + 44.3% hallaki (reich) @ 2.76
18 54% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 46% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.76
19 65.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 34.6% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.8
20 91.3% tn-brahmin (xing) + 8.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.83

tipirneni
05-07-2020, 05:08 PM
Kunjumoidu


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.65
2 Baloch 35.72
3 SE-Asian 4.65
4 SW-Asian 3.6
5 Papuan 2.41
6 Caucasian 2.38
7 NE-Euro 0.71
8 NE-Asian 0.56
9 Pygmy 0.53
10 E-African 0.3
11 American 0.3
12 Mediterranean 0.19
13 W-African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.8
2 kerala-christian (harappa) 5.84
3 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 6.04
4 ap-reddy (harappa) 6.59
5 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.63
6 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.79
7 rajasthani (harappa) 6.87
8 up (harappa) 6.87
9 tamil (harappa) 6.95
10 karnataka (harappa) 7.1
11 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 7.23
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 7.33
13 tn-brahmin (xing) 7.33
14 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 7.44
15 bihari (harappa) 7.64
16 maharashtrian (harappa) 7.66
17 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 7.74
18 dharkar (metspalu) 7.95
19 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 7.95
20 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 7.99

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.8% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.2% samoan (xing) @ 3.19
2 93.9% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.1% tongan (xing) @ 3.25
3 94.6% ap-reddy (harappa) + 5.4% iban (xing) @ 3.82
4 91.7% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 8.3% tongan (xing) @ 3.84
5 82.5% sinhalese (harappa) + 17.5% brahui (hgdp) @ 3.85
6 93.7% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.3% singapore-malay (sgvp) @ 3.88
7 91.8% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 8.2% samoan (xing) @ 3.88
8 61.2% ap-mala (xing) + 38.8% brahui (hgdp) @ 3.89
9 79.6% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 20.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 3.93
10 90.5% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 9.5% brahui (hgdp) @ 3.95
11 93.8% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.2% cambodian (hgdp) @ 4.02
12 89.2% kerala-nair (harappa) + 10.8% juang (chaubey) @ 4.05
13 82.8% sinhalese (harappa) + 17.2% makrani (hgdp) @ 4.06
14 89.3% kerala-nair (harappa) + 10.7% bonda (chaubey) @ 4.07
15 81.7% sinhalese (harappa) + 18.3% balochi (hgdp) @ 4.08
16 93.1% ap-reddy (harappa) + 6.9% thai (xing) @ 4.1
17 81% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 19% brahui (hgdp) @ 4.12
18 78.6% tamil-nadar (harappa) + 21.4% balochi (hgdp) @ 4.12
19 64.6% madiga (reich) + 35.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 4.14
20 90.3% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 9.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 4.15

discreetmaverick
05-07-2020, 05:58 PM
Namboodri

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.82
2 Baloch 38.98
3 Caucasian 6.85
4 Mediterranean 3.2
5 NE-Euro 3.16
6 SE-Asian 1.66
7 American 1.07
8 SW-Asian 0.71
9 Papuan 0.55

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.17
2 meghawal (reich) 4.7
3 gujarati-b (hapmap) 4.77
4 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.82
5 gujarati (harappa) 4.97
6 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.1
7 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.21
8 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.52
9 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.53
10 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.97
11 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.11
12 rajasthani (harappa) 6.43
13 ap-brahmin (xing) 6.73
14 kerala-christian (harappa) 7.18
15 bihari-muslim (harappa) 7.39
16 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.53
17 vaish (reich) 7.75
18 up (harappa) 8.41
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.81
20 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% karnataka (harappa) + 45.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.27
2 81.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 18.2% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.3
3 53.5% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 2.41
4 58.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 41.4% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) @ 2.5
5 54% punjabi-arain (xing) + 46% tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 2.58
6 60.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 39.6% vysya (reich) @ 2.61
7 50.8% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 49.2% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.62
8 83.7% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 16.3% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.62
9 56.6% punjabi-arain (xing) + 43.4% kurumba (metspalu) @ 2.62
10 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) @ 2.63
11 57.9% karnataka (harappa) + 42.1% sindhi (hgdp) @ 2.64
12 55.8% punjabi-arain (xing) + 44.2% dusadh (metspalu) @ 2.73
13 59.3% punjabi-arain (xing) + 40.7% hallaki (reich) @ 2.73
14 69.4% gujarati-patel (harappa) + 30.6% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.75
15 54.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 45.6% lodi (reich) @ 2.75
16 51.7% velama (metspalu) + 48.3% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.76
17 55.7% sindhi (hgdp) + 44.3% hallaki (reich) @ 2.76
18 54% gujarati-a (1000genomes) + 46% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 2.76
19 65.4% punjabi-arain (xing) + 34.6% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.8
20 91.3% tn-brahmin (xing) + 8.7% balochi (hgdp) @ 2.83

This person has high Mediterranean of 3 and above and higher than NE-Euro.

tipirneni
05-07-2020, 06:38 PM
This person has high Mediterranean of 3 and above and higher than NE-Euro.

I see a lot of E haplogroup matches. Maybe like one of those swat sample like. Except 1 Caucasian population there is no other foreign in mixed mode. It is a high Caucasian/Balooch mixed sample.

ThaYamamoto
05-13-2020, 03:33 AM
What is your paternal ancestry ? My maternal grandfather is also L-M357 .

Forgot about this man, yeah I'm L-M357, I think of the Balochi variety but there's no way to no unless I test I guess. Think its dope how its also found in South India...could possibly be due to long history between East Africa where I'm from, and South India, in particular with Konkani folks.

discreetmaverick
05-13-2020, 05:40 PM
I see a lot of E haplogroup matches. Maybe like one of those swat sample like. Except 1 Caucasian population there is no other foreign in mixed mode. It is a high Caucasian/Balooch mixed sample.

What is Swat like sample

vishankar
05-22-2020, 04:58 PM
i am not posting the autosomal results of this kerala nair ( kannur nambiar+ malappuram nair) lady her, as there is another thread on south asian harappa, but here is the link anyways!
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page350

tipirneni
05-23-2020, 04:28 AM
What is Swat like sample

Did you hear about Vishnugupta aka Chanakya?

discreetmaverick
05-23-2020, 05:04 AM
Did you hear about Vishnugupta aka Chanakya?

Yes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya#Identification_with_Kau%E1%B9%ADilya_or_V ishnugupta

SWAT-like Samples resemble Vishnugupta or Maurya's?

tipirneni
05-25-2020, 11:10 PM
Yes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya#Identification_with_Kau%E1%B9%ADilya_or_V ishnugupta

SWAT-like Samples resemble Vishnugupta or Maurya's?

Unless some one find an ancient tooth to claim otherwise.

vishankar
06-22-2020, 06:18 PM
most of the calculators using unscaled coordinates may be inferior to nmonte population runs( now on genoplot) but i did a run on ph2ters eurocentric unscaled for some ezhavas, thiyyas and nairs. and kindred folk...what surprised me and caught my eye was the Zagros component,present in one of my Bunt samples( i did not use the other one) and in my north malabar nambiar sample....it led me to think that these 2 communities the north malabar nair and the tulu speaking Bunt may be actually related and distinct from the southern nairs!.... read about the earliest middle east farmers in this link-https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/ancient-farmers-had-two-distinct-roots/

i will upload the excel sheet of the eurocentric calculator results!38113

tipirneni
06-22-2020, 07:20 PM
most of the calculators using unscaled coordinates may be inferior to nmonte population runs( now on genoplot) but i did a run on ph2ters eurocentric unscaled for some ezhavas, thiyyas and nairs. and kindred folk...what surprised me and caught my eye was the Zagros component,present in one of my Bunt samples( i did not use the other one) and in my north malabar nambiar sample....it led me to think that these 2 communities the north malabar nair and the tulu speaking Bunt may be actually related and distinct from the southern nairs!.... read about the earliest middle east farmers in this link-https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/ancient-farmers-had-two-distinct-roots/

i will upload the excel sheet of the eurocentric calculator results!38113

Bunts also seem to have that extra WHG found among Kamma and Gowdas. There is this Oetzi like component which is rich in WHG and Brachythephaly-like cranial features not present among Nairs as far as Know. I am getting like 46cM on enhanced matches with Oetzi on myTa, which might give some idea of that much admix. There are also high WHG reported from samples up north.

alan
06-22-2020, 07:40 PM
Bunts also seem to have that extra WHG found among Kamma and Gowdas. There is this Oetzi like component which is rich in WHG and Brachythephaly-like cranial features not present among Nairs as far as Know. I am getting like 46cM on enhanced matches with Oetzi on myTa, which might give some idea of that much admix. There are also high WHG reported from samples up north.

Did Oetzi have CHG component? I vaguely remember someone saying he did but I am not sure if that was right or not.

tipirneni
06-22-2020, 08:37 PM
Did Oetzi have CHG component? I vaguely remember someone saying he did but I am not sure if that was right or not.

https://bga101.blogspot.com/2014/09/eurogenes-ane-k7.html
Says Oetzi has around 40% WHG-UHG

vishankar
07-06-2020, 10:08 AM
just to let other members know, posted a nair nambiar harappa result on the harappa south asian thread...https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page368&highlight=kerala.
regards!

simsim1000
07-21-2020, 01:07 AM
Guys, I may have found a Kerala Christian who was part of the Mar Sapor and Mar Proth mission. She has mtDNA group HV, which is common in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and other Levantine countries. This is extremely rare for a Kerala Christian to have. I'll have more details later. Thomas48 might find this of interest. Also, she is NOT Knanaya, which is why I believe this. Her church was built by Mar Sapor and Mar Proth themselves.

BMG
07-21-2020, 02:29 AM
Guys, I may have found a Kerala Christian who was part of the Mar Sapor and Mar Proth mission. She has mtDNA group HV, which is common in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and other Levantine countries. This is extremely rare for a Kerala Christian to have. I'll have more details later. Thomas48 might find this of interest. Also, she is NOT Knanaya, which is why I believe this. Her church was built by Mar Sapor and Mar Proth themselves.

HV is rare among Syrian Christians but not necessarily indicative of west asian origins .We need to know the exact Subclade. HV14 is widespread in South India HV2 is more common in north west india but still present in South India as well. Both the subclades are found among Syrian Christians .
Do you have her autosomal results ? Is her family from Thevalakkara ?

parasar
07-21-2020, 02:33 AM
Guys, I may have found a Kerala Christian who was part of the Mar Sapor and Mar Proth mission. She has mtDNA group HV, which is common in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and other Levantine countries. This is extremely rare for a Kerala Christian to have. I'll have more details later. Thomas48 might find this of interest. Also, she is NOT Knanaya, which is why I believe this. Her church was built by Mar Sapor and Mar Proth themselves.

HV* or HV2?
My dad's maternal line is HV2. R0 or pre-HV is quite likely a western Asian coastal line with early branches in Soqotra and the Kalash.

From 23andme: person related to my father's mother (same female line)
Y-R1a L657
mt HV2

So all related males L657 (almost certainly Y9xY7)
Female lines U2b2 (mother), HV2, U2c - all likely Indus Valley Civ lines.

"The distribution of the three sister clades within haplogroup U2 (U2a, U2b, and U2c) is essentially restricted to the Indo-Pakistani regions (fig. 5a–c). They have not been observed in Europe and the Near East and, according to our data, they are absent in the Iranian plateau and Central Asian populations. They are, however, common in populations from Pakistan and India. The estimated coalescence times for these haplogroups are: 45,700 ± 14,400 years for U2a, 35,900 ± 9000 years for U2b, and 45,200 ± 10,400 years for U2c. The R5 lineage showed a similar distribution to the U2 subclades (fig. 5d), but its root types are more concentrated in the Indus Valley region, with the derivatives in central and southern India. The estimated time depth of this lineage is 51,800 ± 13,800 years."

"The phylogeography of haplogroups HV2 and R2 resembles that of U7 but has a more restricted geographic distribution. Both haplogroups are concentrated in southern Pakistan and India, with some overflow into adjacent areas, including the Near East/Caucasus region, the Iranian plateau, the Arabian Peninsula, and Central Asia, where most of the derived types are observed (fig. 4a and ​and4b).4b). The coalescence times were estimated at 27,700 ± 9600 years for HV2 and 31,200 ± 8200 years for R2."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181978/