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vishankar
07-25-2020, 03:24 PM
Hi folks, i posted the harappa results of a Bunt( shetty) gentleman from Udupi...here is the link..https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page374&highlight=harappa+world.....!

BMG
07-25-2020, 04:45 PM
Hi folks, i posted the harappa results of a Bunt( shetty) gentleman from Udupi...here is the link..https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page374&highlight=harappa+world.....!

Bunts are consistently south shifted compared to Nairs. I guess Nairs overtime had more brahmin mix and became more brahmin shifted . Not considering nambiar like sub groups who appear to be of full brahmin descent . Is the uniparental results of this person available ?

vishankar
07-25-2020, 05:01 PM
Bunts are consistently south shifted compared to Nairs. I guess Nairs overtime had more brahmin mix and became more brahmin shifted . Not considering nambiar like sub groups who appear to be of full brahmin descent . Is the uniparental results of this person available ?

Hi....how do you get that?...

BMG
07-25-2020, 06:02 PM
Hi....how do you get that?...
If the company test for it . Basic tests of Living DNA and 23andme will give haplogroups as well .

vishankar
07-25-2020, 06:49 PM
If the company test for it . Basic tests of Living DNA and 23andme will give haplogroups as well .

oh.. this was done from ancestry DNA...i dont think they would have done it...may be i could aks them?

Thomas48
07-29-2020, 11:37 PM
Guys, I may have found a Kerala Christian who was part of the Mar Sapor and Mar Proth mission. She has mtDNA group HV, which is common in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and other Levantine countries. This is extremely rare for a Kerala Christian to have. I'll have more details later. Thomas48 might find this of interest. Also, she is NOT Knanaya, which is why I believe this. Her church was built by Mar Sapor and Mar Proth themselves.

It’s actually rather interesting when you look at primary sources during the Portuguese era they give two lineages among the Christians of India. They state one group are the Christians of St. Thomas (majority) and the others the Knai Thoma party (minority). They also undoubtedly state that Knai Thoma had children and a family with a St. Thomas Christian woman, I think this was likely done to establish himself among the local community as was common historically, using marriage for alliances etc. From testimony the Portuguese state the original St. Thomas Christians lived in Mailapur, Tamil Nadu (the shrine of St. Thomas) and later moved to Kerala due to persecution by the Hindus in Tamil Nadu. Interestingly in the ledgers of Marco Polo he mentions that Christians of India in 1293 venerated "since time immemorial" the tomb of St. Thomas in Mailapur. In this way the original St. Thomas Christians it seems were originally from Mailapur and later settled Kodungallur. This community would be supplemented by a number of West Asian Christian merchants, likely originally from various traditions.

Though traditionally the Knanaya claim to have arrived in 345, contemporary studies, even by third parties seem to be aligning Knai Thoma's arrival in the early 9th century which coincides with the second Chera Dynasty of Kodungallur (the Cochin Jews too had actually thought for almost the entirety of their history that they arrived in the 4th century (379), it was only within the last few decades that their Joseph Rabban copper plate was accurately dated to 1000 C.E. by M.G.S Narayanan)

In the later 9th century (849) the Sabor/Proth party arrived and settled in Kollam. What’s fascinating is that colonial records of the Kollam plates mention in the 4/5th plate a brief from the Knai Thoma copper plate as a notation of the previous rights given to the Christians. In this way I think we will see that the 9th century is in reality the major advent of Syriac Christianity in Kerala with the arrival of these two groups and their influence in the port kingdoms of Kodungallur and Kollam. I think the major difference between these two migrant parties is simply that one held ideals of endogamy and the other did not (perhaps this could be because of the Jewish heritage claim of the Knanaya?). Scholar of medieval and maritime India Dr. Pius Malekandathil expresses that the Kollam party integrated with the native St. Thomas Christians, which is in all likelihood why they don't exist as a distinct ethnic identity today.

At the moment there is a actually a major study being conducted on the lost Knai Thoma plates and the Kollam plates by third party scholars, namely Dr. Istvan Perczel (Hungarian professor and scholar of early Christianity) and associates. I was invited to join a seminar on this but unfortunately I could not make it. From what I heard in the recorded seminar, they are honing in on the 9th century as the major Christian proliferation of Kerala.

Not to give too much credit to Christian merchants but these groups arriving in the 9th century suggests that Christian merchants played a pivotal role in the establishment of the second Cheras in Kodungallur.

JTM
07-30-2020, 05:28 PM
Guys, I may have found a Kerala Christian who was part of the Mar Sapor and Mar Proth mission. She has mtDNA group HV, which is common in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and other Levantine countries. This is extremely rare for a Kerala Christian to have. I'll have more details later. Thomas48 might find this of interest. Also, she is NOT Knanaya, which is why I believe this. Her church was built by Mar Sapor and Mar Proth themselves.

Which one is that particular church built by Sabor & Afrath? Thanks

BMG
07-30-2020, 05:35 PM
Which one is that particular church built by Sabor & Afrath? Thanks

Hi JTM
I remember you have tested through 23andme . If possible can you share the haplogroups of kits appearing in matches list.

BMG
07-30-2020, 05:56 PM
I don't think Syrian Christians came from Mylapore .First of all there is no tradition of Mylapore or of martyr of St Thomas among Syrian Christians prior to Portugese . If there is a migration there should be some kind of reminiscence in the stories or traditions.

Marcopolo doesn't mention Mylapore by name but as a remote place in Mabaar which is the Coromandel coast . Further the story of martyr mentions hunter people called Govi has killed him mistaking for a peacock . The story seems similar to Lord Krishna's death. The Govi hunters might be related to Govi people of Srilanka and the place mentioned can be the near the palk strait which is the place where Marco Polo actually visited .

The Portugese accounts does not tell of migration of Christians from Mylapore to Malabar but just says that the christian community at Mylapore is no more.

JTM
07-30-2020, 09:50 PM
Hi JTM
I remember you have tested through 23andme . If possible can you share the haplogroups of kits appearing in matches list.

Hi BMG,

All my matches seems Christian names from Kerala

Some of the Y DNA & mtDNA haplogroups are as followed

1) R-Z93 M35a1
2) F-M89 M2a1
3) R-Y7 M5a1
4) J-M241 U1a3
5) H-Z14258 U1a3
6)J-M241 R5a2b4
7) F-M89 M5a5
8) J-L283 R0

Thomas48
07-30-2020, 10:39 PM
I don't think Syrian Christians came from Mylapore .First of all there is no tradition of Mylapore or of martyr of St Thomas among Syrian Christians prior to Portugese . If there is a migration there should be some kind of reminiscence in the stories or traditions.

Marcopolo doesn't mention Mylapore by name but as a remote place in Mabaar which is the Coromandel coast . Further the story of martyr mentions hunter people called Govi has killed him mistaking for a peacock . The story seems similar to Lord Krishna's death. The Govi hunters might be related to Govi people of Srilanka and the place mentioned can be the near the palk strait which is the place where Marco Polo actually visited .

The Portugese accounts does not tell of migration of Christians from Mylapore to Malabar but just says that the christian community at Mylapore is no more.

Bishop Francis Ros states the following in 1603-1604

“So that, already long before the coming of Thomas Cananeo, there were St. Thomas Christians in this Malavar, who had come from Mailapur, the town of St. Thomas. And the chief families are four in number: Cotur, Catanal, Onamturte, Narimaten, which are known among all these Christians, who became multiplied and extended through the whole of this Malavar, also adding to themselves some of the gentios who would convert themselves.”

He spent over 20 years with the Christians of India and became so ingrained into the local culture and history that he took the time to learn Syriac. Ros’ account has to be based off the testimony and local histories he heard from the Syrian Christians he worked with. But yes it’s true that migration from Mylapur could just be tradition and not factual history.

JTM
07-31-2020, 01:06 AM
Bishop Francis Ros states the following in 1603-1604

“So that, already long before the coming of Thomas Cananeo, there were St. Thomas Christians in this Malavar, who had come from Mailapur, the town of St. Thomas. And the chief families are four in number: Cotur, Catanal, Onamturte, Narimaten, which are known among all these Christians, who became multiplied and extended through the whole of this Malavar, also adding to themselves some of the gentios who would convert themselves.”

He spent over 20 years with the Christians of India and became so ingrained into the local culture and history that he took the time to learn Syriac. Ros’ account has to be based off the testimony and local histories he heard from the Syrian Christians he worked with. But yes it’s true that migration from Mylapur could just be tradition and not factual history.

Ros was a Catalan Jesuit who arrived in India in 1584.
His narrations are just like age old fantasy stories circulated among Syrian Christians.

JTM
07-31-2020, 01:37 AM
Cont'd

9) R L266 U1A3
10) NO M2313 U1A3
11)R L 266 R5a2b4
12)GM342 M4c
13) R31b H 2 l 3871
14)RM 512 M5a1
15) R Z93 M64
16) L M27 M5a1
17) J M241 R5a2b4
18) R Z93 M5a
19) R M417 M5a2a
20) L M27 M2b1

All these people seems Syrian Christians from Kerala

BMG
07-31-2020, 03:03 PM
Bishop Francis Ros states the following in 1603-1604

“So that, already long before the coming of Thomas Cananeo, there were St. Thomas Christians in this Malavar, who had come from Mailapur, the town of St. Thomas. And the chief families are four in number: Cotur, Catanal, Onamturte, Narimaten, which are known among all these Christians, who became multiplied and extended through the whole of this Malavar, also adding to themselves some of the gentios who would convert themselves.”

He spent over 20 years with the Christians of India and became so ingrained into the local culture and history that he took the time to learn Syriac. Ros’ account has to be based off the testimony and local histories he heard from the Syrian Christians he worked with. But yes it’s true that migration from Mylapur could just be tradition and not factual history.

Ros came later and after the portugese propogated Mylapore myth . Furthermore he was one among who wanted to use the St Thomas myths to legitimise the Kerala church and to bring it under Rome. Earlier Portugese historians like Joao de barros and Duerte Barbosa does not mention about this .

Thomas48
08-02-2020, 02:59 AM
Ros came later and after the portugese propogated Mylapore myth . Furthermore he was one among who wanted to use the St Thomas myths to legitimise the Kerala church and to bring it under Rome. Earlier Portugese historians like Joao de barros and Duerte Barbosa does not mention about this .

There are always semblances of truth in tradition. I’m not so sure if we should take a possible Christian center in Mylapore to be mere myth or fantasy. The documentary “Doubting Thomas” mentions that the the bones of the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore were excavated and dated by Oxford University. Interestingly the bones date between 130-330 C.E. This seems to establish that even though it wasn’t Thomas the Apostle, Christians of India were venerating someone at Mylapore. The question of who is trivial but perhaps a Christian missionary of India who arrived in the time frame established? Perhaps another martyr named Thomas who was later associated as Thomas the Apostle?

Way before Ros the Syrian priest simply labeled in his works by the title Abuna also mentions the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore:

"A Christian merchant came on pilgrimage from the land of Canane to this city of Mailapur where the body of the Apostle lay buried" (Abuna, 1533)

Abuna was actually one of 13 witnesses ordered by Portuguese King John III to explain and give information regarding the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore. All of this stated, I do not think the contemporary opinion that the tradition of St. Thomas in India was crafted by the Portuguese is factual. The Portuguese themselves were learning information about this tradition from the native Christians.

The Thomas tradition seems to pre-date the Portuguese era as well. The Syriac manuscript of Deacon Zacharias (1301) states the following:

"This holy book was written in the royal, renowned and famous city of Chingala (Cranganore) in Malabar in the time of the great captain and director of the holy catholic church of the East.. our blessed and holy Father Mar Yahd Alaha V and in the time of bishop Mar Jacob, Metropolitan and director of the holy see of the Apostle Mar Thoma, that is to say, our great captain and the director of the entire holy church of Christian India"

Now one could argue that Deacon Zacharias is stating the see of the Apostle Mar Thoma in relation to the Church of the East which also venerates St. Thomas the Apostle as the founder of the church but his reference here is local regarding the See of Kodungallur. This seems to suggest veneration of St. Thomas by the Christians of India but again this could simply be that the local Christians are venerating Thomas as the founder of their Church (Church of the East).

BMG
08-02-2020, 02:15 PM
There are always semblances of truth in tradition. I’m not so sure if we should take a possible Christian center in Mylapore to be mere myth or fantasy. The documentary “Doubting Thomas” mentions that the the bones of the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore were excavated and dated by Oxford University. Interestingly the bones date between 130-330 C.E. This seems to establish that even though it wasn’t Thomas the Apostle, Christians of India were venerating someone at Mylapore. The question of who is trivial but perhaps a Christian missionary of India who arrived in the time frame established? Perhaps another martyr named Thomas who was later associated as Thomas the Apostle?

Way before Ros the Syrian priest simply labeled in his works by the title Abuna also mentions the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore:

"A Christian merchant came on pilgrimage from the land of Canane to this city of Mailapur where the body of the Apostle lay buried" (Abuna, 1533)

Abuna was actually one of 13 witnesses ordered by Portuguese King John III to explain and give information regarding the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore. All of this stated, I do not think the contemporary opinion that the tradition of St. Thomas in India was crafted by the Portuguese is factual. The Portuguese themselves were learning information about this tradition from the native Christians.

The Thomas tradition seems to pre-date the Portuguese era as well. The Syriac manuscript of Deacon Zacharias (1301) states the following:

"This holy book was written in the royal, renowned and famous city of Chingala (Cranganore) in Malabar in the time of the great captain and director of the holy catholic church of the East.. our blessed and holy Father Mar Yahd Alaha V and in the time of bishop Mar Jacob, Metropolitan and director of the holy see of the Apostle Mar Thoma, that is to say, our great captain and the director of the entire holy church of Christian India"

Now one could argue that Deacon Zacharias is stating the see of the Apostle Mar Thoma in relation to the Church of the East which also venerates St. Thomas the Apostle as the founder of the church but his reference here is local regarding the See of Kodungallur. This seems to suggest veneration of St. Thomas by the Christians of India but again this could simply be that the local Christians are venerating Thomas as the founder of their Church (Church of the East).

I am not questioning the St Thomas tradition of suriyanis but the martyrdom of St Thomas and his tomb at St Thomas mount . As I have said in earlier post Marco Polo have written that he had visited the St Thomas resting place and the presence of Christians there . But the problem is he did not go north of palk strait . So my contention is the place he visited is somewhere between the palk strait and the port of kollam. Again if we see the John of Marignoli who have stayed in Quilon for at around 4 months have also visited the tomb of St Thomas . He again have quoted the same peacock story about the death of apostle . He mentioned the place as Mirapolis and have noted both Christians and Muslims generated the saint .

Interestingly enough the first Portugese to write about Mylapore is Duarte Barabosa . He again narrates the same story of man who walked with the peacocks . He also tells that the place is maintained by a muslim fakir now .Whether he actually visited the place or whether he had heard the story . It is to be noted the Portugese already know about the St Thomas is india due to Marco Polo's works .The first person to narrate the story of martyr of St Thomas with a lance is Diego Fernandes Periera .He himself was not a writer but is quoted as narrated the story . At least by 1523 the martyr of St Thomas story and they have even found the spear which is used to kill St Thomas which was not even there in the original story

Thomas48
08-03-2020, 12:38 AM
I am not questioning the St Thomas tradition of suriyanis but the martyrdom of St Thomas and his tomb at St Thomas mount . As I have said in earlier post Marco Polo have written that he had visited the St Thomas resting place and the presence of Christians there . But the problem is he did not go north of palk strait . So my contention is the place he visited is somewhere between the palk strait and the port of kollam. Again if we see the John of Marignoli who have stayed in Quilon for at around 4 months have also visited the tomb of St Thomas . He again have quoted the same peacock story about the death of apostle . He mentioned the place as Mirapolis and have noted both Christians and Muslims generated the saint .

Interestingly enough the first Portugese to write about Mylapore is Duarte Barabosa . He again narrates the same story of man who walked with the peacocks . He also tells that the place is maintained by a muslim fakir now .Whether he actually visited the place or whether he had heard the story . It is to be noted the Portugese already know about the St Thomas is india due to Marco Polo's works .The first person to narrate the story of martyr of St Thomas with a lance is Diego Fernandes Periera .He himself was not a writer but is quoted as narrated the story . At least by 1523 the martyr of St Thomas story and they have even found the spear which is used to kill St Thomas which was not even there in the original story

I don’t disagree with you at all here. I think it would be rather interesting to find out who is actually buried in this tomb. I strongly feel that it was the “actual” first missionary of India that was later confused with Thomas the Apostle. It was very likely a Syriac Christian by the name of Thomas who lived between 130-330.

BMG
08-03-2020, 02:59 AM
I don’t disagree with you at all here. I think it would be rather interesting to find out who is actually buried in this tomb. I strongly feel that it was the “actual” first missionary of India that was later confused with Thomas the Apostle. It was very likely a Syriac Christian by the name of Thomas who lived between 130-330.

I actually don't believe Mylapore or St Thomas mount has anything to do with Christianity till the Portugese . The reasons are
1. As the earlier records both Christians and Muslim worshipped at the place and a Muslim was managing the place and Muslims claim the saint as one of their own. That description doesn't match with Mylapore as it was an abandoned structure when Portugese found it.
2. The place was associated with healing powers but there is no such story related with Mylapore area.
3. The Portugese persons who allegedly found the tomb Deigo Fernandes and his brother were actually deserters from the Portugese who wanted to make a fortune of their own .They were also the persons who identified the place of Santhome church as St Thomas shrine. But their initial claim was not completely accepted since there was no body remains there which actually go against earlier descriptions.
4. They went on to search the place for the tomb . Few years later they found the tomb at St Thomas mount . Then they modified the St Thomas story in the form acceptable to church and the King . For the proof they even appropriated the lance in the tomb to corroborate the story .
5.They also found the bleeding cross which St Thomas was said to be holding which the apostle will not be having if he actually came here in 1st century.
6.The Only thing which can be certain as a proof for Christian presence is the nestorian cross found there which had Pahlavi inscription . But Nestorian crosses are made only in 7th century. If it is actually excavated from there it would show a Nestorian presence . But given their background they might have planted it there which they originally found some where in the west coast.

As for the shrine mentioned by Marco Polo and Marignoli it can be one of many dargahs facing the sea in the eastern coast . One such dargah is Muthupet dargah which is almost 1000 years old and is suitably located at a place where Marcopolo might have visited . Earlier bishops or delegates visited before marco polo also might have searched for apostle's tomb given the tradition among locals and might have appropriated one of the old dargah as St Thomas tomb seeing some similar traditions of rituals . So the Christians also might have started visiting the place along with Muslims .

My belief is that the tradition of Thomas evangelisation of locals is imported from Soqotrans who might have their version of Nestorian Christianity in Malabar Coast along with other Arab traders. That said we can't completely deny St Thomas has visited India , it is just that we don't have any proof to be sure of the same . If at all St Thomas had come to India and died in India his resting place will be at a place we don't know .

vishankar
08-23-2020, 06:10 PM
Dear all, i have posted two Thiyya results , a husband and wife from Kozhikode....https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page391&highlight=kerala

vishankar
08-29-2020, 06:43 AM
Dear friends, i have posted a thodupuzha vellala on the south asian harappa thread-ttps://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page398&highlight=kerala
His caucasian score is surprisingly high for someone who has no NE euro...

vishankar
09-13-2020, 05:49 PM
i had posted the harappa result of a Mappila gentleman with roots in Tanur , Mallapuram who is probably Malay / indonesian mixed...his Y-dna is L-FT173918 according to FTDNA and Y-DNA L-Y182445 in YFULL.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L?iframe=yresults..... the name listed as Pareekutty musaliyar is the earliest known paternal ancestor.

vishankar
09-20-2020, 07:13 AM
i had ordered for a SNP pack-keeping my ancestry in mind-
so after the results-
i am-
L-657 -positive.
Z-93 -positive.
Z-94 - positive .
everything else negative.
and the paternal Y- DNA haplogroup is refined to R-Y30.

BMG
09-20-2020, 10:56 AM
i had ordered for a SNP pack-keeping my ancestry in mind-
so after the results-
i am-
L-657 -positive.
Z-93 -positive.
Z-94 - positive .
everything else negative.
and the paternal Y- DNA haplogroup is refined to R-Y30.
So you are Y7 like me.

vishankar
09-20-2020, 01:54 PM
So you are Y7 like me.

yes...)))

vishankar
09-20-2020, 01:55 PM
So you are Y7 like me.

@BMG-any idea about this lineage dear?..widespread in India I presume..

BMG
09-20-2020, 02:37 PM
@BMG-any idea about this lineage dear?..widespread in India I presume..

Widespread in South Asia. L657 is especially high in gangetic belt. Out of major subclades of L657 Y6 have a skew in peripheral areas of south,east and west like in Bengalis in the east,Telugus in the south and Balochis and Pashtuns in the west. In other areas Y7 is more dominant like in Punjabis, Sindhis,Gujaratis, Konkanis etc. But we don't know about gangetic plains since they are undertested. We have small sample size for L657 in Kerala. Afaik both Y6 and Y7 are equally present in Kerala.

Among L657 Nairs two I know are Y6 but you are Y7. In Syrian Christians L657 divides equally onto Y6 and Y7. Three each. One Kerala muslim sample is Y7 and another Kerala muslim academic sample belong to Y6. The Only namboodiri L657 I know is also Y7. The Knanaya R1a is almost exclusively Y6.

discreetmaverick
10-07-2020, 04:36 PM
In understanding the Syrian Christian community origins i had speculated who are the people adopted Christianity during the earlier centuries . The earliest Christians of Kerala would be prior to the second cheras .
The first people they could have encountered are the vanik groups in the port towns and main inland towns .Who are these vanik groups ? One of the possibility is that they are baniya like people who bought along their jain religion to south india . The other possibility is that they are elite among the rich farming communities during those days who were vellala like .

These vanik groups have vanished from Kerala . But similar communities have persisted in other south indian states . So the possibility of these vaniks to have converted to Christianity and later to Islam . We have to note the Mangalore Muslims are called Byari which is shortened form of Vyapari ( which means trader) . In the later centuries these Muslims and Christian population filled the vaccum of baniya like population .

The second group who could have encountered these early Christian missionaries are the farmers who I presume to be vellala like population who were involved in wetland rice farming . They could have been following early Dravidian hindu customs with considerable influence of Buddhism in some pockets . The Tamil vellalars are genetically similar to Syrian Christians who i think was a Dravidian elite . ( These people lack steppe but often have high Baloch+ Caucasian in harappaworld . )

Were are tamil vellavars are concentrated in Kerala, is it near and around palakkad gap?

BMG
10-07-2020, 06:46 PM
Were are tamil vellavars are concentrated in Kerala, is it near and around palakkad gap?

I was not talking about actual tamil vellalars but agiriculturist like them who might have migrated to kerala at similar period. There is no similar population to vellala in kerala as far as i know other than maybe recent migration from tamil nadu or maybe bordering towns. I am not sure.

discreetmaverick
10-07-2020, 07:40 PM
I was not talking about actual tamil vellalars but agiriculturist like them who might have migrated to kerala at similar period. There is no similar population to vellala in kerala as far as i know other than maybe recent migration from tamil nadu or maybe bordering towns. I am not sure.

I don't get, you mean no agriculturist mean no farming caste in Kerala? at a similar period mean what period? during neolithic or when vellavars reached tamil nadu?

vishankar
10-07-2020, 08:21 PM
I don't get, you mean no agriculturist mean no farming caste in Kerala? at a similar period mean what period? during neolithic or when vellavars reached tamil nadu?

Vellalas are agriculturists par excellence!..but the actual work is carried out by PALLANS i think!..similarly nairs are also agriculturists along with ezhavas , but they have an equally important military function!....In kerala all communities are farmers!...rich farmers lease out their land to tenants!..in Tamil Nadu, the military function i carriied out by Kallars/ maravars.

Rustyshakelford
10-10-2020, 05:59 AM
Were are tamil vellavars are concentrated in Kerala, is it near and around palakkad gap?

There are some vellalar in the eastern parts of kottayam district. I believe they are considered Nairs but not sure if other Nairs intermarry with them. You can also find Tamil Muslims in these regions as well. Iíd assume these groups migrated through the kumily pass and moved further inland.

discreetmaverick
10-10-2020, 07:34 AM
Vellalas are agriculturists par excellence!..but the actual work is carried out by PALLANS i think!..similarly nairs are also agriculturists along with ezhavas , but they have an equally important military function!....In kerala all communities are farmers!...rich farmers lease out their land to tenants!..in Tamil Nadu, the military function i carriied out by Kallars/ maravars.


This was discussed on before - Every caste can be considered as a "basic agricultural community". Some of every caste members would have either worked as agri labors or owned some land and did farming. does that mean every caste is a farming caste ?

you could find more here and a few previous and subsequent posts

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19841-Sage-Agasthya-and-Southern-Migration&p=658608&viewfull=1#post658608

In South Canara, Holeya (Hola - Field, Holeya - one who works in the field) are equivalents of Pallans, Mala in Telangana/AP. Who in Kerala are equivalents of them?

https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/194080/13/13_chapter4.pdf

vishankar
10-10-2020, 03:15 PM
This was discussed on before - Every caste can be considered as a "basic agricultural community". Some of every caste members would have either worked as agri labors or owned some land and did farming. does that mean every caste is a farming caste ?

you could find more here and a few previous and subsequent posts

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19841-Sage-Agasthya-and-Southern-Migration&p=658608&viewfull=1#post658608

In South Canara, Holeya (Hola - Field, Holeya - one who works in the field) are equivalents of Pallans, Mala in Telangana/AP. Who in Kerala are equivalents of them?

https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/194080/13/13_chapter4.pdf



the equivalent is the Pulaya....holeya in kannada~ becomes pulaya in malayalam!

discreetmaverick
10-10-2020, 05:03 PM
the equivalent is the Pulaya....holeya in kannada~ becomes pulaya in malayalam!

Who are equivalent of Kanbi/Kunbi/Kurmi/kapu etc ?

vishankar
10-10-2020, 05:14 PM
Who are equivalent of Kanbi/Kunbi/Kurmi/kapu etc ?


this is tricky...all the above with tthe exception of Kapu are farmers who are not landowners..so maybe like ezhava/ thiyya!..Kapu would be like Nair!

discreetmaverick
10-10-2020, 05:33 PM
this is tricky...all the above with tthe exception of Kapu are farmers who are not landowners..so maybe like ezhava/ thiyya!..Kapu would be like Nair!

Are you saying : Landowner: Nairs, Tenant farmer: ezhava/ thiyya, Agricultural worker: pulaya?

vishankar
10-10-2020, 05:50 PM
Are you saying : Landowner: Nairs, Tenant farmer: ezhava/ thiyya, Agricultural worker: pulaya?


yes..precisely!...in north malabar some thiyyas also own land as do some ezhava families in south kerala, but the above classification is by and large the norm!

discreetmaverick
10-10-2020, 06:27 PM
yes..precisely!...in north malabar some thiyyas also own land as do some ezhava families in south kerala, but the above classification is by and large the norm!

how is it with christians and muslims of kerala?

vishankar
10-11-2020, 07:27 AM
how is it with christians and muslims of kerala?

Same story, you have landlords and landless tenant farmers among them too!....really not caste based !

discreetmaverick
10-11-2020, 07:37 AM
Same story, you have landlords and landless tenant farmers among them too!....really not caste based !

What about Syrian Christians? Are they mainly landowners, tenant farmers, or agricultural workers?

discreetmaverick
10-11-2020, 08:16 AM
this is tricky...all the above with tthe exception of Kapu are farmers who are not landowners..so maybe like ezhava/ thiyya!..Kapu would be like Nair!

40172

It caste-wise distribution of land in AP

Is land ownership of Nair like Reddy or Kamma or is it like Kapu ?

https://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

vishankar
10-11-2020, 05:41 PM
What about Syrian Christians? Are they mainly landowners, tenant farmers, or agricultural workers?

I think BMG is better qualified to answer this , but from what i have seen they are predominantly landowners!

vishankar
10-11-2020, 05:44 PM
40172

It caste-wise distribution of land in AP

Is land ownership of Nair like Reddy or Kamma or is it like Kapu ?

https://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

Dunno dear)))...land and land ownership in Kerala is very different from AP and telangana!

naruto
10-11-2020, 11:17 PM
Are pallakad iyers mixed with keralite groups? Or are they mostly endogamous?

tipirneni
10-12-2020, 02:13 AM
40172

It caste-wise distribution of land in AP

Is land ownership of Nair like Reddy or Kamma or is it like Kapu ?

https://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

As mobile ‘knowledge workers’, Kammas may be more comparable to the Tamil Brahmins (Fuller & Narasimhan, 2014), but an important difference is that they are a dominant agrarian community that continues to have a strong foothold in rural areas with considerable ownership of agricultural land—a social profile that inflects their transnational migration and forms of engagements with the home region.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0260107918770954

Also forward integrated their ancient farmer heritage into newer things like Biggest masonary dam (Nagarjuna Sagar), Biggest milk producers in South, Biggest poultry producers in South, Biggest aqua seeds, aqua exporters, Biggest textile equipment manufacturers, pumpset manufacturers, Biggest chili exporters, tobacco exporters, fruit producers in South, Biggest studios in Asia for movies, Pharma exports, largest grain producers other than punjab-up,bengal etc...

There are more than 30 Medical colleges and Dental, and more than 200 Engg colleges many big universities 100% owned by Kamma educationalists.



There are around 22.2 M Kamma/Velama/Reddy people spread out in Andhra/Telangana/TN/Karnataka/Orissa & Bombay/Surat/Ahmedabad etc.. areas

BMG
10-17-2020, 05:39 AM
What about Syrian Christians? Are they mainly landowners, tenant farmers, or agricultural workers?
If you go back few centuries a minority of them were landowners who inherited the property traditionally.(~10%). Majority of them were traders or tenant farmers. In Urban areas they were into some or other kind of business like traders,middle men or craftsmen. In the rural areas they were mostly tenant farmers and share croppers. Over the years they started acquiring land and by early 20th century almost 50% of them were landholding agriculturists. Main crops were rice, coconut, tea, cashewnut, sugarcane,diarying and aqua farming.

discreetmaverick
10-17-2020, 06:56 PM
If you go back few centuries a minority of them were landowners who inherited the property traditionally.(~10%). Majority of them were traders or tenant farmers. In Urban areas they were into some or other kind of business like traders,middle men or craftsmen. In the rural areas they were mostly tenant farmers and share croppers. Over the years they started acquiring land and by early 20th century almost 50% of them were landholding agriculturists. Main crops were rice, coconut, tea, cashewnut, sugarcane,diarying and aqua farming.

Do you have Y DNA and Mt DNA distribution of Syrian Christians?

BMG
10-18-2020, 11:33 AM
Do you have Y DNA and Mt DNA distribution of Syrian Christians?
In the first page of this thread there is a link to ftdna project. There are no academic studies done so far.

BMG
10-29-2020, 02:32 PM
I been looking through the thread/s and I could not get any real confirmation on knanaya y haplogroups. Is there any R1bs among them?

From the below link we get rough idea about the Knanaya ydna haplogroups. It is more diverse than their mtdna but it does reflect the limited number of founding fathers.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%25E2%2580%2599s%25E2%2580%2599_time, _persecution_continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_b eliefs_and_claims_1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwig_eDR99nsAhWV73MBHV57BeUQFjAEegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0lRsceyh8rX1S0DggvBVHL

I have tabulated the ydna distribution as below

L1a1-M27 - >15(probably more than 1 founders)
L1a2-M357 ->12(possibly single founder)
C5-M356 ->8(Two founders with one under K96 & another under Y152667)
J2b2-M241 ->8(Possibly one founder)
H-M69 ->8(one founder under Z14258)
R1a-M417 ->8(probably one founder under Y6)
J2a->5(M68-3,L24-2)
Q1a-M346 ->4(one founder under L939)
G1-M342 ->3(one founder under CTS11562)
O->3(Page3,F8 and B418)
R2-M479 -> 1
T-M70 -> 1

Three forum members so far belong L-M357,Q-L939 & R2.
There is no R1b so far but not improbable.

Killergram
10-31-2020, 11:37 AM
From the below link we get rough idea about the Knanaya ydna haplogroups. It is more diverse than their mtdna but it does reflect the limited number of founding fathers.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.knanayareform.com/static/kana/as_in_galileo%25E2%2580%2599s%25E2%2580%2599_time, _persecution_continues_in_knanaya_based_on_false_b eliefs_and_claims_1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwig_eDR99nsAhWV73MBHV57BeUQFjAEegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0lRsceyh8rX1S0DggvBVHL

I have tabulated the ydna distribution as below

L1a1-M27 - >15(probably more than 1 founders)
L1a2-M357 ->12(possibly single founder)
C5-M356 ->8(Two founders with one under K96 & another under Y152667)
J2b2-M241 ->8(Possibly one founder)
H-M69 ->8(one founder under Z14258)
R1a-M417 ->8(probably one founder under Y6)
J2a->5(M68-3,L24-2)
Q1a-M346 ->4(one founder under L939)
G1-M342 ->3(one founder under CTS11562)
O->3(Page3,F8 and B418)
R2-M479 -> 1
T-M70 -> 1

Three forum members so far belong L-M357,Q-L939 & R2.
There is no R1b so far but not improbable.

These all confirmed right?

BMG
10-31-2020, 12:38 PM
These all confirmed right?

Many are confirmed by the author and other close relatives with mtdna M33a2 are also included by me.

BMG
11-06-2020, 05:46 PM
2 Syrian Christian kits with ydna G1

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 50.4
2 Baloch 33.93
3 NE-Euro 3.96
4 Caucasian 3.89
5 SW-Asian 3.62
6 American 1.39
7 NE-Asian 1.2
8 San 0.93
9 Papuan 0.38
10 Beringian 0.22
11 W-African 0.09


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.5
2 Baloch 35.25
3 Caucasian 6.64
4 SW-Asian 4.16
5 NE-Euro 2.77
6 Papuan 1.6
7 NE-Asian 0.6
8 Siberian 0.57
9 Mediterranean 0.5
10 American 0.24
11 E-African 0.18

vishankar
11-06-2020, 06:14 PM
Any idea how the national geographic Y-DNA results were in terms of accuracy?...it has nairs, ezhavas and Vellalas as having individuals with Y-DNA Haplogroup I( from David Mahal's paper), which is almost always an indicator of a north european paternal line!....possibly the Hazara of afghanistan has a very small percentage too!

BMG
11-06-2020, 06:27 PM
Any idea how the national geographic Y-DNA results were in terms of accuracy?...it has nairs, ezhavas and Vellalas as having individuals with Y-DNA Haplogroup I( from David Mahal's paper), which is almost always an indicator of a north european paternal line!....possibly the Hazara of afghanistan has a very small percentage too!

David Mahal paper is not reliable. They have used somekind of prediction software I guess.

vishankar
11-07-2020, 03:15 AM
David Mahal paper is not reliable. They have used somekind of prediction software I guess.

Yes...the Whit athey haplogroup predictor, and a retrospectie study, too!

Jatt1
11-07-2020, 03:59 AM
Any idea how the national geographic Y-DNA results were in terms of accuracy?...it has nairs, ezhavas and Vellalas as having individuals with Y-DNA Haplogroup I( from David Mahal's paper), which is almost always an indicator of a north european paternal line!....possibly the Hazara of afghanistan has a very small percentage too!

My brother had Geno 2.0 test, there was nothing wrong with it.

vishankar
11-07-2020, 03:13 PM
My brother had Geno 2.0 test, there was nothing wrong with it.

Thanks...)))...but how to validate the presence of Y-DNA haplogroup I in India?....in that study, even Jats were found to have Y-DNA I..i will post a snapshot!

vishankar
11-07-2020, 03:19 PM
here it is....ezhava, nair.vellala, Haryana Jat, Jat sikh and the Hazara...41029...
from what i gather both I1 AND I2 were characterised in northern and north west europe......my reference is eupedia, but i guess i need to read it more in-depth!

Coldmountains
11-07-2020, 03:22 PM
Any idea how the national geographic Y-DNA results were in terms of accuracy?...it has nairs, ezhavas and Vellalas as having individuals with Y-DNA Haplogroup I( from David Mahal's paper), which is almost always an indicator of a north european paternal line!....possibly the Hazara of afghanistan has a very small percentage too!

Pashtuns and Tajiks have I2a too. Rare for sure (0-2%) but exists definetly in most Afghan ethnic groups. Hazara seem to have quite lot I2a for the region and it shows up in most studies. Even I1a1a was found among Afghans but this seems to from some kind of recent event/migration (Huns?). .

In South Asia I2a was already found in Swat_IA and some modern Punjabi samples afaik. So it is not so surprising to find some I deeper in the continent. I2a was a minor lineage among Proto-Indo-Iranians and Proto-Indo-Aryans, so we can expect to find more I2a among ancient and modern samples from South Asia.

Coldmountains
11-07-2020, 03:24 PM
here it is....ezhava, nair.vellala, Haryana Jat, Jat sikh and the Hazara...41029...
from what i gather both I1 AND I2 were characterised in northern and north west europe......my reference is eupedia, but i guess i need to read it more in-depth!

Almost all I in South Asia should be under I2a and related to Indo-Iranian migrations. I1 should be rare or absent but it could be that some basal I1 somehow exists there (unlikely)

Helves
11-07-2020, 03:33 PM
Has G1 been found in Kerala Christians?

davit
11-07-2020, 03:38 PM
Pashtuns and Tajiks have I2a too. Rare for sure (0-2%) but exists definetly in most Afghan ethnic groups. Hazara seem to have quite lot I2a for the region and it shows up in most studies. Even I1a1a was found among Afghans but this seems to from some kind of recent event/migration (Huns?). .

In South Asia I2a was already found in Swat_IA and some modern Punjabi samples afaik. So it is not so surprising to find some I deeper in the continent. I2a was a minor lineage among Proto-Indo-Iranians and Proto-Indo-Aryans, so we can expect to find more I2a among ancient and modern samples from South Asia.

Interesting. What clade of I2a is found among South Asians? Also what do you think of the I2c in Armenians?

BMG
11-07-2020, 03:54 PM
Thanks...)))...but how to validate the presence of Y-DNA haplogroup I in India?....in that study, even Jats were found to have Y-DNA I..i will post a snapshot!
That are samples collected through geographic project which
may include Geno2.0 testers who provided consent . That David Mahal study uses STR not Geno 2.0 chip data anyway. So they wrongly predicted the haplogroups.
Geno 2.0 test themselves gave wrong haplogroup to many testers but that was due to wrong interpretation of the data. Some H was given as R1b or N and C was given I.

BMG
11-07-2020, 04:03 PM
Has G1 been found in Kerala Christians?

Yes. G1 is found among Kerala Christians. 23andme gives the haplogroup as G-CTS11562. I think they don't test any SNP beyond that.So far at least 6 people has tested as G1. An earlier study by Arunkumar et al had showed southern Kerala groups like Ezhava and Nadar also have G1 among them.

Helves
11-07-2020, 04:41 PM
Yes. G1 is found among Kerala Christians. 23andme gives the haplogroup as G-CTS11562. I think they don't test any SNP beyond that.So far at least 6 people has tested as G1. An earlier study by Arunkumar et al had showed southern Kerala groups like Ezhava and Nadar also have G1 among them.

That's too bad, I wonder if these Kerala Christians fall under G-GG362 which includes some Gujaratis or if it's under G-GG313 like me and Humanist(Assyrian originally from Iran who used to be active here).

vishankar
11-07-2020, 05:49 PM
That are samples collected through geographic project which
may include Geno2.0 testers who provided consent . That David Mahal study uses STR not Geno 2.0 chip data anyway. So they wrongly predicted the haplogroups.
Geno 2.0 test themselves gave wrong haplogroup to many testers but that was due to wrong interpretation of the data. Some H was given as R1b or N and C was given I.

Did the Geno 2.0 guys admit this mistake??...they had one of the more expensive tests going around!

BMG
11-08-2020, 03:22 AM
Did the Geno 2.0 guys admit this mistake??...they had one of the more expensive tests going around!

They have rechecked for those who complained but most of them didn't know what they received were wrong unless someone checked their raw data.

vishankar
12-10-2020, 03:51 AM
I got the Y-12 results for one of my kits- a Thiyya male from Kozhikode..L-M20....can anybody post the lik to y-full tree for this haplogroup here....appears to be closely related to the IVC population..seen in a high frequency in south india( Kallars) as well as 37 % Jats!

Rustyshakelford
12-12-2020, 11:55 PM
An interesting thing about the M33a2 ,the knanaya subclade is that it is indeed found in middle East .
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M33a2/
All the unmarked samples are from india though . Their specific subclade M33a2a is found in a iraqi marsh arab sample .

Y-full has re-classified my subclade as M33a2b1 which is shared with a Sri Lankan Tamil sample (ID: HG03642). The TMRCA is 2100 Ybp, so relatively recent.

BMG
12-13-2020, 02:20 PM
I got the Y-12 results for one of my kits- a Thiyya male from Kozhikode..L-M20....can anybody post the lik to y-full tree for this haplogroup here....appears to be closely related to the IVC population..seen in a high frequency in south india( Kallars) as well as 37 % Jats!

Is he L1a1 or L1a2 ?

pegasus
12-13-2020, 05:35 PM
I got the Y-12 results for one of my kits- a Thiyya male from Kozhikode..L-M20....can anybody post the lik to y-full tree for this haplogroup here....appears to be closely related to the IVC population..seen in a high frequency in south india( Kallars) as well as 37 % Jats!

I don't know what the subclade is for this individual but if its L1c, I doubt it is an IVC clade. If you look at Haryana Jats/Rors , Steppe ancestry is heavily male biased so that makes L1c an IVC marker all the more tenuous coupled with a dearth of Steppe mtDNA markers they have. Given the current admixture patterns, one sees between autosomes and X chromosomes it strongly suggests their Indo-Aryan progenitors were L1c along with R1a-L657 of course. The most Steppe shifted Jats/Rors I have seen thus far are all L1c. Also its overall occurrence in Indian populations is exceedingly low. Thats not the case though with L1a which I would associate with the IVC and is far more ubiquitous. Ultimately its a Kili Gul - Merhgarh marker IMO.

Interestingly in the new Baloch samples from Iran, one with the highest Iran_N and lowest ANF ratio, was L1a.

Iran our lab L1a 9AQ100

ThaYamamoto
12-13-2020, 05:48 PM
I don't know what the subclade is for this individual but if its L1c, I doubt it is an IVC clade. If you look at Haryana Jats/Rors , Steppe ancestry is heavily male biased so that makes L1c an IVC marker all the more tenuous coupled with a dearth of Steppe mtDNA markers they have. Given the current admixture patterns, one sees between autosomes and X chromosomes it strongly suggests their Indo-Aryan progenitors were L1c along with R1a-L657 of course. The most Steppe shifted Jats/Rors I have seen thus far are all L1c. Also its overall occurrence in Indian populations is exceedingly low. Thats not the case though with L1a which I would associate with the IVC and is far more ubiquitous. Ultimately its a Kili Gul - Merhgarh marker IMO.

Interestingly in the new Baloch samples from Iran, one with the highest Iran_N and lowest ANF ratio, was L1a.

Iran our lab L1a 9AQ100

never really been that interested in my Y, but does what you're saying make it a BMAC lineage or was it always already present in the steppe [unlikely?]

pegasus
12-13-2020, 06:10 PM
never really been that interested in my Y, but does what you're saying make it a BMAC lineage or was it always already present in the steppe [unlikely?]

No it's not exclusively a BMAC marker, it also occurs in that Jiroft sample , in fact, the rare but sporadic occurrence of it in SW India is associated with that sample but that particular subclade is not the same as the one found in Rors/Haryana Jats. In other words, it has more complex diffusion. So somewhere between the Murghab and the Suleiman range, it was picked up by Indo Aryans.

Jatt1
12-13-2020, 11:10 PM
I got the Y-12 results for one of my kits- a Thiyya male from Kozhikode..L-M20....can anybody post the lik to y-full tree for this haplogroup here....appears to be closely related to the IVC population..seen in a high frequency in south india( Kallars) as well as 37 % Jats!

37 % Jats are L-M20?

vishankar
12-14-2020, 02:33 AM
37 % Jats are L-M20?

hi..i got that info from wikipedia)...

vishankar
12-14-2020, 02:35 AM
Is he L1a1 or L1a2 ?

i got this from the Y-12 markers from family tree dna....any other method of knowing whether he is L1a1 or L1a2?

Jatt1
12-14-2020, 04:41 AM
hi..i got that info from wikipedia)...

L Jatts are mainly under L-M357 and some are under L-M27

BMG
12-14-2020, 09:06 AM
i got this from the Y-12 markers from family tree dna....any other method of knowing whether he is L1a1 or L1a2?
12 markers are enough to know whether he is L1a1 or L1a2. Pm me the data

vishankar
12-14-2020, 04:28 PM
12 markers are enough to know whether he is L1a1 or L1a2. Pm me the data

yup, i will!...will just check the SNP's myself too!

vishankar
12-14-2020, 05:07 PM
in NEVGEN it came as L1aM27.

discreetmaverick
12-18-2020, 07:29 AM
Does anyone know which community from Kerala this person belongs to, the only subclade that comes under the J2b2 - L283, as all other South Asians fall under Z2432

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146401*/

BMG
12-18-2020, 08:14 AM
Does anyone know which community from Kerala this person belongs to, the only subclade that comes under the J2b2 - L283, as all other South Asians fall under Z2432

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146401*/

He is a Syrian Christian.

discreetmaverick
12-18-2020, 09:51 AM
He is a Syrian Christian.

Since, no other South Asian is part of L283, other than Syrian Christian, who have some West Asian/middle eastern ancestry or lineages, this could be part of it.

So, Z2432 was not brought by Indo-Europeans who entered South Asia, maybe it did not even present in that part of the steppe at that time?

Eupedia mentions,


The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe.The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.



Has any j2b2 samples been found in Ancient samples from Steppe regions from where IR groups entered South Asia.

I believe it was not found in SIS BA samples or was it found in any SWAT sample? Indus periphery or others?

It seems as this Eupedia article, associates with possibly Indo-greeks, but is from 2103 that could be dated.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29229-Phylogeographical-Analysis-of-the-J2b2-M241-Geno-2-0-Heatmap?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=b1dc64da381d65e6e9743c 7582be0d70ae1590b8-1608283906-0-ASOuP9jxBN7oMjOjSX_e0gR0AfkRC9swcX7ZnLriJlNZpax-gaPhNY27mLYy9a9ORwDPgVt0glDv_e74_oIVqwG_FlyvZpm5gP qBzZjpnTGaNB4RFP6mTqR78AKoB7KqZ0re1Dg57jeGMfQjLxbt DSImavFvBT5mLLECfIL-2KH13QOsNfXdScfhH73MpgNwYiIcYqfUt_OLPDSO9WRXQHF8a4 fSZmOWCk0CUV1ty5p7k_DeJYqsjhAF6hbSqMt3DV8UHYeqT371 dspDkNlgQQZjiYGfe0vn2upQIFRH-He26iVz8R_J6JKB4wWrPCj3G6QB6UtHrP0hGpcxlCMjKU_ysH-lPZT4yWjBzao81g2-cEt6GGeTHmQNV1dwtSDd_Roe2NVeQcFfV28kvP2eIOvO4SHYxS DDTvOBkWBDzoHB

Is it anyway z432 or some of the clades associated with yona/parthian, who have a history of presence in the near east. It could be later carried by Saka/huns from Centrel asia/North west asia?

discreetmaverick
12-21-2020, 03:39 AM
Cousin marriage in Kerala seems to have been practiced to one degree or another by most Hindu castes except Brahmins. Muslims also have cousin marriage but this is probably not a Dravidian influence. Syrian Christians on the other hand seem pretty averse to it. even Knanaya people disallow it for first and second cousins.

Thereís a lot of strang practices like polyandry which had things like all the brothers in one family sharing the same wife. Although I think this was mostly practiced amongst lower castes like ezhava.

A lot of these practices would be deemed deviant by todayís standards. It might be worth reading some of the old ethnographic studies of Kerala from the early 1900s as they detail a lot of old customs that are no longer practiced, I feel like I remember reading something about puberty ceremonies.

Interesting, cousin marriage has been practiced by Coastal Karnataka brahmins, I have seen this among others as well. The only exogamy is based on gotra/pravara, based on gotra/pravara some cousin marriages are prohibited but not all.

vishankar
12-21-2020, 03:35 PM
Interesting, cousin marriage has been practiced by Coastal Karnataka brahmins, I have seen this among others as well. The only exogamy is based on gotra/pravara, based on gotra/pravara some cousin marriages are prohibited but not all.

Hmm...the nairs were alleged polyandrists( if such a word exists LOL)...many nairs of note denied this....but come to think of it....the nambudiri "husband" of a nair lady was not the only male partner....there were others too...!

bmoney
12-29-2020, 12:57 AM
Hi Bmoney do most of the Nair samples on your 23andMe have much larger Malayali subgroup % than this low scoring Thiyya individual? Thanks

yeah, but my adjusted/updated results have been downgraded to 15% Malayali (Syrian Christian USA) now - I have a feeling the Thiyya result might change too after the algorithm update

as an aside now 23andme is basically calling me a TamBram (71% Southern Subgroup - regional likelihood 1 TN 2 Karnataka)

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:02 AM
I don't know what the subclade is for this individual but if its L1c, I doubt it is an IVC clade. If you look at Haryana Jats/Rors , Steppe ancestry is heavily male biased so that makes L1c an IVC marker all the more tenuous coupled with a dearth of Steppe mtDNA markers they have. Given the current admixture patterns, one sees between autosomes and X chromosomes it strongly suggests their Indo-Aryan progenitors were L1c along with R1a-L657 of course. The most Steppe shifted Jats/Rors I have seen thus far are all L1c. Also its overall occurrence in Indian populations is exceedingly low. Thats not the case though with L1a which I would associate with the IVC and is far more ubiquitous. Ultimately its a Kili Gul - Merhgarh marker IMO.

Interestingly in the new Baloch samples from Iran, one with the highest Iran_N and lowest ANF ratio, was L1a.

Iran our lab L1a 9AQ100

interesting that makes sense, though how do you reconcile this with the fact that the few ancient samples that are L1a1 have significant ANF (likely non-steppe related) unlike say IVC associated y-dna R2 ancient samples

My opinion is that R2 represents the indigenous ANE/West Siberian HG influence in ancient Central Asia with L1a making an early eastern migration from West Asia (where T largely remains) bringing with it some level of ANF or something Basal Eurasian that predates ANF

Of course this non-steppe ANF could have been brought into Mehrgarh pre-steppe migration

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:16 AM
just to let other members know, posted a nair nambiar harappa result on the harappa south asian thread...https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-South-Asian-HarappaWorld-results/page368&highlight=kerala.
regards!

scores very similar to my uncle

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:21 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grantha_script#Western_Grantha

Isn't it reverse? Tilagari reached Tulunadu from Kerala.

My understanding was that preTulu alphabet in Kerala was similar to Tamil script when Kerala inhabitants spoke Western Tamil

Malayalam was first written in the Vatteluttu alphabet, an ancient script of Tamil. However, the modern Malayalam script evolved from the Grantha alphabet, which was originally used to write Sanskrit. Both Vatteluttu and Grantha evolved from the Tamil-Brahmi, but independently.

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:24 AM
That is suprising considering the significant presence of L on the SW coast. How about the Nambuthiris?

its not - ive posted multiple times about how Nair y-dna from ftdna and my own 23andme matches have barely any L or J (less than 5%)

Nair distribution when it comes to upper caste Nairs (i presume the data is from this subset) follows Gangetic R1a/R2/H y-dna patterns

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:33 AM
According to Vanshawali I read on my mother's surname, they didn't migrate from Gangetic Plains at all. They claim to have migrated from NW very earlier (like in the period of 0-300 AD) to Nepal via Himalayan route. Their story is, when Yavanas (could be Shakas or Greeks) attacked NW, they fled towards the mountains & eventually ended up in Nepal. My maternal grandmother's Vanshwali says they migrated from Badrinath(Uttarakhand) like 700 years ago or so. Idk how true this is but they claim that they were Shakas who migrated Eastwards into Himalayas, while most Shakas ended up migrating and settling in Punjab/Sindh region. They definitely did mix with more IVC type folks. Perhaps, those folks were also present in Western Himalayas at that time. They got land grants from Khas Kings of Far Western Nepal hills to settle in Nepal & it's even written in inscription.

You have to find Proto-Brahmin like population if you want to link us with other Brahmins, as Gangetic Brahmins are usually less Steppe shifted compared to us. If they've more Steppe than us, they have lower Iran Neolithic/BMAC than us. I think the theory of Proto-Brahmin population might hold some water, as Brahmins I'm sharing with are not from immediate South of Nepal or immediate Southwest, but spread all over the place. 2 guys are from Uttarakhand (Chamoli & Joshi), 1 Chitpavan guy (Patwardhan), 1 Tamil Brahmin (Ramalingam), 1 Punjabi or Himachal Brahmin (Kalia).

im not sure if its correlation or causation (migration from Ganges) but steppe shifted UP Brahmins and Nepal A from HAP score similarly (high steppe shift with lower IVC). Nepal A does not score like Punjabi Brahmin HAP or Jammu Brahmin

bmoney
12-29-2020, 01:40 AM
I already posted the link
https://crossasia-journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/ejvs/article/view/327

Nair-Bunts may have common (Northern) origins, but I don't think they're necessarily related to their respective Brahmins. The Brahmins may have created up a record so as to facilitate their matrimonial alliances with Nair-Bunts.

If you actually read my posts it essentially about a cultural sphere across the region between Western TN and Malabar, Tamil and Malayalam aren't even in the picture.


So those Shivalli, Havyaka, Nambudiri, and Tamil Purvashikas may be related groups or, Nambudiris form through interaction between Tamil Purvashikas and the former, I am unsure. There is no rejection of self-histories.

And my "text" is not an account, but an analysis of the (variation in) texts carried by the various Brahmins. I haven't read the entire article in detail as of yet.

Are Tamil Purvashikas a large % of the TamBram population? again historical records attest to the fact that Brahmins were in TN long before they were in Kerala

J Man
12-29-2020, 03:52 AM
What are the most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Kerala Christians?

cardinale389
12-30-2020, 12:00 AM
What are the most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Kerala Christians?

The most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Kerala Christians are J2, H, R1a, L, R2, and Q. Mtdna seems to be mostly tribal Indian.

J Man
12-30-2020, 12:17 AM
The most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Kerala Christians are J2, H, R1a, L, R2, and Q. Mtdna seems to be mostly tribal Indian.

Interesting thank you...Is the J2 mostly J2a or J2b do you know?

cardinale389
12-30-2020, 12:44 AM
Interesting thank you...Is the J2 mostly J2a or J2b do you know?

It's mostly J2a as far as I know.

J Man
12-30-2020, 12:57 AM
It's mostly J2a as far as I know.

Ok thanks...So then is J2a the most common haplogroup among the tested Kerala Christians so far? Or is H or R1a the most common so far?

cardinale389
12-30-2020, 01:10 AM
Ok thanks...So then is J2a the most common haplogroup among the tested Kerala Christians so far? Or is H or R1a the most common so far?

Yes, the most common among the tested ones is J2a followed by L and R1a.

BMG
12-31-2020, 05:09 PM
Ok thanks...So then is J2a the most common haplogroup among the tested Kerala Christians so far? Or is H or R1a the most common so far?

R1a is most common haplogroup among Kerala Syrian Christians. (30-35%). All of those belong to one of the south asian subclades of L657,Z2125 or Y40.
L1a including both M27 and M357 will be around 20-25%. J2a is found around 15-20% which is mostly under M68,PF5197 and L24

Killergram
02-05-2021, 11:13 AM
Hey, Would you provide an estimate of these percentages of Y dna patterns in the Gangetic Plains.

1938helerich
02-13-2021, 04:42 PM
Hi, I am a Kerala Christian (Nasrani) and my paternal haplogroup is L-M357 and maternal haplogroup is U1a3. Does anyone know the origin of these haplogroups? Thanks.

vishankar
02-13-2021, 06:26 PM
Hi, I am a Kerala Christian (Nasrani) and my paternal haplogroup is L-M357 and maternal haplogroup is U1a3. Does anyone know the origin of these haplogroups? Thanks.

hi..your paternal haplogroup is a subclade of L-M20....found in higher numbers in baluchistan,afghanistan and south india....as for your maternal haplogroup-

"The small amount of data available clearly indicates that U1a has its highest frequencies in parts of the middle east. The haplogroup as a whole ranges from India (eg Kerala, Pakistan) to the Mediterranean and to the rest of Europe. It is extremely rare at the northern fringes of Europe (such as the UK of Scandinavia). Its sister clade U1b seems to mirror some of the distribution, though it is usually rarer: it doesn't seem to appear in India, and is clearly less common in the Mediterranean than U1a. However, there seems to be a little more U1b than U1a in certain parts of Eastern Europe."

tipirneni
02-13-2021, 07:22 PM
Hi, I am a Kerala Christian (Nasrani) and my paternal haplogroup is L-M357 and maternal haplogroup is U1a3. Does anyone know the origin of these haplogroups? Thanks.

Your population mix looks very close to Kamma caste

BMG
02-14-2021, 08:05 AM
Hi, I am a Kerala Christian (Nasrani) and my paternal haplogroup is L-M357 and maternal haplogroup is U1a3. Does anyone know the origin of these haplogroups? Thanks.

L-M357 is found among Kerala Syrian Christians at around 3-5%. Knanaya Christians and Kunnumkulam Christians seems to have a higher proportion on L-M357 among them. My maternal grandfather is also L-M357. He is from Ranni, Pathanamthitta District although the direct ancestral line have supposedly migrated to there from Kundara,Kollam sometime in late 18th century.

U1a3 is a very common haplogroup in Kerala.

1938helerich
02-14-2021, 10:02 AM
L-M357 is found among Kerala Syrian Christians at around 3-5%. Knanaya Christians and Kunnumkulam Christians seems to have a higher proportion on L-M357 among them. My maternal grandfather is also L-M357. He is from Ranni, Pathanamthitta District although the direct ancestral line have supposedly migrated to there from Kundara,Kollam sometime in late 18th century.

U1a3 is a very common haplogroup in Kerala.

Thanks!

1938helerich
02-15-2021, 01:11 AM
I've sent Jacob an email, I'll share his response.

Also I've collected two more Knanaya samples:


Knanaya #30
Population
S-Indian 46.65
Baloch 34.48
Caucasian 8.83
NE-Euro 0.31
SE-Asian 0.95
Siberian 1.76
NE-Asian 0.44
Papuan 0.94
American 0.28
Beringian 1.08
Mediterranean 1.83
SW-Asian 2.46
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Knanaya #31
Population
S-Indian 45.16
Baloch 32.83
Caucasian 10.16
NE-Euro 2.55
SE-Asian 1.64
Siberian -
NE-Asian 0.96
Papuan 0.69
American 1.61
Beringian -
Mediterranean 0.42
SW-Asian 3.92
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

I know this post is from a while back, but from browsing this thread, my Harappa percentages seem very similar to Knanayas even though I am not Knanaya. From what I've heard, Knanayas only marry within their own community:

For comparison, my Harappa percentages:

1 S-Indian 46.57
2 Baloch 34.56
3 Caucasian 9.99
4 Siberian 3.37
5 SW-Asian 1.40
6 NE-Asian 1.13
7 NE-Euro 1.05

BMG
02-15-2021, 02:14 PM
I know this post is from a while back, but from browsing this thread, my Harappa percentages seem very similar to Knanayas even though I am not Knanaya. From what I've heard, Knanayas only marry within their own community:

For comparison, my Harappa percentages:

1 S-Indian 46.57
2 Baloch 34.56
3 Caucasian 9.99
4 Siberian 3.37
5 SW-Asian 1.40
6 NE-Asian 1.13
7 NE-Euro 1.05

Your SW Asian score is too low for a Knanaya. Still it is possible to have some low level of Knanaya ancestry even when without known ancestors due to mixing with excommunicated ones over the generations especially if you are from Kottayam district. I have seen a few cases like that.

1938helerich
02-15-2021, 02:21 PM
Your SW Asian score is too low for a Knanaya. Still it is possible to have some low level of Knanaya ancestry even when without known ancestors due to mixing with excommunicated ones over the generations especially if you are from Kottayam district. I have seen a few cases like that.

yes, you are right, Knanayas seem to have 2-4% SW Asian. My mom is from Champakulam, my dad from Chengannur.

BMG
02-15-2021, 03:46 PM
yes, you are right, Knanayas seem to have 2-4% SW Asian. My mom is from Champakulam, my dad from Chengannur.

My paternal grandparents are from Chengannur and Venmony. My maternal grandmother is from Mavelikkara. Interesting that despite being close geographically we get slightly different results

vishankar
02-15-2021, 05:18 PM
is that 2-4 sw asian which distinguishes knanayas??.....they seem to have slighly less ASI too on harappa compared to other keralites?....despite their low NE euro(as compared to kerala nambuthiris and nairs)...when i did an nmonte run comparing kerala communities with north west indian jats and khatris, the knanaya seemed to show some affinity surprisiingly....of course i will have to run it again, and share it here!!

1938helerich
02-15-2021, 05:29 PM
is that 2-4 sw asian which distinguishes knanayas??.....they seem to have slighly less ASI too on harappa compared to other keralites?....despite their low NE euro(as compared to kerala nambuthiris and nairs)...when i did an nmonte run comparing kerala communities with north west indian jats and khatris, the knanaya seemed to show some affinity surprisiingly....of course i will have to run it again, and share it here!!

Looking at the results, Knanayas seem to have 8-10% Caucasian, 43-46% SI, and 2-4% SW Asian. Their N.European is low, so I am assuming they don't have much steppe ancestry.

Does the South Indian in Harappa correspond to ASI ancestry?

Rustyshakelford
02-15-2021, 08:13 PM
I know this post is from a while back, but from browsing this thread, my Harappa percentages seem very similar to Knanayas even though I am not Knanaya. From what I've heard, Knanayas only marry within their own community:

For comparison, my Harappa percentages:

1 S-Indian 46.57
2 Baloch 34.56
3 Caucasian 9.99
4 Siberian 3.37
5 SW-Asian 1.40
6 NE-Asian 1.13
7 NE-Euro 1.05


Hereís a Knanaya persons results that are very similar to yours (Harappa in the comments). He is also L-M357:

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/lbwcp4/my_parents_were_mad_i_spent_100_on_something_they/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

I would check your closest matches on gedmatch.

Rustyshakelford
02-15-2021, 08:27 PM
Your SW Asian score is too low for a Knanaya. Still it is possible to have some low level of Knanaya ancestry even when without known ancestors due to mixing with excommunicated ones over the generations especially if you are from Kottayam district. I have seen a few cases like that.

In the Chengannur area there were some Knanaya Jacobite priests along with their families who joined the Marthoma church during the reformation movement. Although the chances are low itís not impossible. since it was from over 100 years ago I doubt the descendants are even aware of it.

1938helerich
02-15-2021, 10:14 PM
In the Chengannur area there were some Knanaya Jacobite priests along with their families who joined the Marthoma church during the reformation movement. Although the chances are low it’s not impossible. since it was from over 100 years ago I doubt the descendants are even aware of it.

Thanks. My parents are both Syro Malankara Catholics.

1938helerich
02-15-2021, 10:19 PM
Here’s a Knanaya persons results that are very similar to yours (Harappa in the comments). He is also L-M357:

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/lbwcp4/my_parents_were_mad_i_spent_100_on_something_they/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

I would check your closest matches on gedmatch.

On 23andme, I got 99.7% Malayali. Seems like 100% Malayali is only scored by Knanayas, like the guy on reddit.

Killergram
02-16-2021, 03:43 AM
I thought malayalee subgroup was a syrian christian thing.

vishankar
02-17-2021, 05:04 PM
I thought malayalee subgroup was a syrian christian thing.

i have never used 23and me..not shipping to india....but looks like their references are limited.

Rustyshakelford
02-23-2021, 11:41 PM
Not sure if this has been posted before but here’s a Kerala Vishwakarma

Ydna: H-Z5890
MtDNA: M64

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/kiycmg/100_southern_south_asian_zero_indoeuropean/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

vishankar
02-26-2021, 06:55 PM
Not sure if this has been posted before but here’s a Kerala Vishwakarma

Ydna: H-Z5890
MtDNA: M64

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/kiycmg/100_southern_south_asian_zero_indoeuropean/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

can u obtain his/ her's harappa score?

Rustyshakelford
02-26-2021, 07:11 PM
can u obtain his/ her's harappa score?

43557

He has it posted there if you swipe on the pictures, itís one of the 7.

1938helerich
02-26-2021, 11:17 PM
43557

He has it posted there if you swipe on the pictures, it’s one of the 7.

wow, he has 70% South Indian. Very similar to tribal people from the South.

BMG
02-27-2021, 04:08 AM
43557

He has it posted there if you swipe on the pictures, itís one of the 7.

Are they a dalit community ?

Rustyshakelford
02-27-2021, 04:55 AM
Are they a dalit community ?

I believe they are classified as an OBC group by the government, although this individuals results resemble that of Dalit groups like the Pulayar.
My understanding is that ‘Vishwakarma’ is a catch all term that encompasses many different artisan castes. They seem to have consolidated around this ‘viswakarma’ identity probably quite recently as a result of Sanskritization. I suspect there will be significant variation between individuals of this group.

BMG
02-27-2021, 05:43 AM
I believe they are classified as an OBC group by the government, although this individuals results resemble that of Dalit groups like the Pulayar.
My understanding is that ‘Vishwakarma’ is a catch all term that encompasses many different artisan castes. They seem to have consolidated around this ‘viswakarma’ identity probably quite recently as a result of Sanskritization. I suspect there will be significant variation between individuals of this group.

That makes sense. I have heard about castes like Asari(carpenter), Thattan(Goldsmith),Kollan(Blacksmith) etc but maybe vishwakrama is a new bigger identity. If that is the case this result is an unexpected one.

discreetmaverick
02-27-2021, 06:07 AM
That makes sense. I have heard about castes like Asari(carpenter), Thattan(Goldsmith),Kollan(Blacksmith) etc but maybe vishwakrama is a new bigger identity. If that is the case this result is an unexpected one.

High SI found among Tamil Vishwakarma

tamil-vishwakarma harappa 2 68% 24% 2% 0% 1% 1% 2% 1% 0% 0% 0% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=0

Maybe there are differences in the 5 subcastes of Vishwakarma or regional variation in some regions of Vishwakarma are tribal shifted.

Rustyshakelford
02-27-2021, 07:11 AM
That makes sense. I have heard about castes like Asari(carpenter), Thattan(Goldsmith),Kollan(Blacksmith) etc but maybe vishwakrama is a new bigger identity. If that is the case this result is an unexpected one.

Vishwakarma seems to be the new ‘official’ name used by their caste organizations, but terms like Kollan, Thattan, Asari etc are still the norm in rural areas, at least in my experience. In fact I’ve never heard of the term vishwakarma used in daily conversation.

In general the artisan castes are afforded a much better position within the local caste hierarchy than the Dalits who usually experience far worse exclusion from public life. What’s interesting about this individual is that he does not differ much at all ancestry wise from the Dalits.

Goes to show that caste and genetics are not always so well correlated as evidenced by this example and some of the high ASI Nair sub-castes.

vishankar
02-27-2021, 04:24 PM
I must tell a small tale here, derived from mythology!..that of the great architect of the Asuras- Mayasura...he was an architect par excellence, but an Asura, a non aryan..so artisans and blacksmiths, goldsmiths have been an integral part of non aryan society....contrast with the daivajna brahmins of goa, maharashtra, karnataka, who are essentially known as shets~shreshti~sonar( goldsmith)....we dont have daivajna harappa oracles, but i suppose it resembles the GSB konkanis!..so expect the kerala vishwakarma and tamil vishwakarma to be high in ASI....we dont have a lore of artisan migration to the south from the north!

Rustyshakelford
02-27-2021, 06:29 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/l9016x/got_my_results_today_was_expecting_100_south/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Kerala Hindu individual with Anglo Ancestry. From the comments it appears he is a descendant of the marital unions between British men and Thiyya women in Thalassery. Thiyyas are matrilineal so the children of these unions followed the mothers religion and remained in her community, unlike the Luso-Indians in Kochi and Alappuzha.

vishankar
02-28-2021, 01:30 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/l9016x/got_my_results_today_was_expecting_100_south/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Kerala Hindu individual with Anglo Ancestry. From the comments it appears he is a descendant of the marital unions between British men and Thiyya women in Thalassery. Thiyyas are matrilineal so the children of these unions followed the mothers religion and remained in her community, unlike the Luso-Indians in Kochi and Alappuzha.

so it seems...is it possible to get his harappa i dont think it is there in the images he uploaded!

BMG
03-14-2021, 09:47 AM
I have tried to compile harappaworld of syrian christians to check the internal variations within them. Very few have only responded to my mails to have a meaningful analysis.
But Still i thought i will share the average of harappaworld district wise.

Thrissur District
Only 8 samples and out of that 6 are from Kunnamkulam.

S.Indian 47.65%
Baloch 35.54%
Caucasian 7.47%
NE Euro 2.26%
SW Asian 1.61%
SE Asian 1.55%

Ernakulam District.
I have only 3 samples so waiting for more responses.

Kottayam District
15 samples from there but majority of respondents(10) are from Kottayam,Changanasherry area. Two responsdents from Pala tended to score high NE Euro than usual. Many of them also have close Knanaya matches even without known knanaya ancestry.

S.Indian 49.10%
Baloch 35.08%
Caucasian 6.11%
NE Euro 2.62%
SW Asian 1.68%
SE Asian 1.37%

Alapuzha District
14 samples.All are from south alapuzha region from Kuttanad to southern regions

S.Indian 49.06%
Baloch 34.62%
Caucasian 6.03%
NE Euro 2.79%
SW Asian 2.13%
SE Asian 1.31%

Pathanamthitta District
15 samples

S.Indian 49.62%
Baloch 34.84%
Caucasian 6.07%
NE Euro 2.08%
SW Asian 2.07%
NE Asian 1.23%

Kollam District
8 samples(includes the respondents from Vaidhyan and Muthalaly families)

S.Indian 48.60%
Baloch 34.79%
Caucasian 7.06%
SW Asian 2.34%
NE Asian 2.05%
NE Euro 1.67%

vishankar
03-14-2021, 04:51 PM
I have tried to compile harappaworld of syrian christians to check the internal variations within them. Very few have only responded to my mails to have a meaningful analysis.
But Still i thought i will share the average of harappaworld district wise.

Thrissur District
Only 8 samples and out of that 6 are from Kunnamkulam.

S.Indian 47.65%
Baloch 35.54%
Caucasian 7.47%
NE Euro 2.26%
SW Asian 1.61%
SE Asian 1.55%

Ernakulam District.
I have only 3 samples so waiting for more responses.

Kottayam District
15 samples from there but majority of respondents(10) are from Kottayam,Changanasherry area. Two responsdents from Pala tended to score high NE Euro than usual. Many of them also have close Knanaya matches even without known knanaya ancestry.

S.Indian 49.10%
Baloch 35.08%
Caucasian 6.11%
NE Euro 2.62%
SW Asian 1.68%
SE Asian 1.37%

Alapuzha District
14 samples.All are from south alapuzha region from Kuttanad to southern regions

S.Indian 49.06%
Baloch 34.62%
Caucasian 6.03%
NE Euro 2.79%
SW Asian 2.13%
SE Asian 1.31%

Pathanamthitta District
15 samples

S.Indian 49.62%
Baloch 34.84%
Caucasian 6.07%
NE Euro 2.08%
SW Asian 2.07%
NE Asian 1.23%

Kollam District
8 samples(includes the respondents from Vaidhyan and Muthalaly families)

S.Indian 48.60%
Baloch 34.79%
Caucasian 7.06%
SW Asian 2.34%
NE Asian 2.05%
NE Euro 1.67%

an excellent endeavour) ..BMG.
REGARDS.

vishankar
04-01-2021, 07:53 PM
friends, i dont post harappa results on this thread anymore, but please check out the kUrichiya sample on the harappa thread!....a rare sample i managed to obtain!

Killergram
04-02-2021, 10:17 AM
friends, i dont post harappa results on this thread anymore, but please check out the kUrichiya sample on the harappa thread!....a rare sample i managed to obtain!

Just skimming through the pages everywhere, this is probs not entirely correct, but using two populations is this roughly correct right?

- Nairs : 75% vellama-like + 25% kashmiri
- Namboothiris : 75% UP Brahmin + 25% Vellama (From what Razib says)
- Nasranis: 80% nairs + 20% Ezhavas ????? Plus 5% ME admixture!
- Knanayas: 80% Vellama + 20% ME
- Ezhavas: Like more AASI Vellamas?

Is this roughly correct?

vishankar
04-02-2021, 03:05 PM
Just skimming through the pages everywhere, this is probs not entirely correct, but using two populations is this roughly correct right?

- Nairs : 75% vellama-like + 25% kashmiri
- Namboothiris : 75% UP Brahmin + 25% Vellama (From what Razib says)
- Nasranis: 80% nairs + 20% Ezhavas ????? Plus 5% ME admixture!
- Knanayas: 80% Vellama + 20% ME
- Ezhavas: Like more AASI Vellamas?

Is this roughly correct?

roughly..yes....how did you arrive at this?....alo do you mean to say Ezhavas are more AASI shifted than Velamas?

Killergram
04-02-2021, 07:37 PM
roughly..yes....how did you arrive at this?....alo do you mean to say Ezhavas are more AASI shifted than Velamas?

Oh just looking through pages and pages of results on anthrogenica lol, especially from you haha. Arent Ezhavas just AASI shifted Velamas tho? Like less IVC and more AASI. I might be completely mistaken. Also do u know how close I am for the Nasranis? I have a feeling they are more nair...

vishankar
04-02-2021, 08:35 PM
Oh just looking through pages and pages of results on anthrogenica lol, especially from you haha. Arent Ezhavas just AASI shifted Velamas tho? Like less IVC and more AASI. I might be completely mistaken. Also do u know how close I am for the Nasranis? I have a feeling they are more nair...

Hi..yes..u are right)....the kurichiya i posted on the harappa thread would appear to be the most AASI hifted!....but i have not got his coordinates and of course Pulaya would be even more AASI shifted i guess....u givem me an idea to model these populations on genoplot and see the fit)...and yes nasranis are quite similar to nairs!

Killergram
04-03-2021, 04:48 AM
Hi..yes..u are right)....the kurichiya i posted on the harappa thread would appear to be the most AASI hifted!....but i have not got his coordinates and of course Pulaya would be even more AASI shifted i guess....u givem me an idea to model these populations on genoplot and see the fit)...and yes nasranis are quite similar to nairs!

Actually, maybe not. Looking at the PCA it shows that thiyyas are actually ivc shifted velamas, not aasi. Nasranis are between Gujaratis and Nair! I forgot to put them in, but when I did, Tamil Brahmins were between nairs and Namboothiris. This took that average of all the samples. Perhaps the Nasranis and ezhavas have too small of sample size to make anything out of it. Just curious if anyone knows if there are any other people in India who are closer to IVC than Knanayas.

Edit: Sorry I could not upload the PCA, can someone show me?

vishankar
04-03-2021, 05:54 AM
Actually, maybe not. Looking at the PCA it shows that thiyyas are actually ivc shifted velamas, not aasi. Nasranis are between Gujaratis and Nair! I forgot to put them in, but when I did, Tamil Brahmins were between nairs and Namboothiris. This took that average of all the samples. Perhaps the Nasranis and ezhavas have too small of sample size to make anything out of it. Just curious if anyone knows if there are any other people in India who are closer to IVC than Knanayas.

Edit: Sorry I could not upload the PCA, can someone show me?

dear friend,
take a snapshot and post it here)))
regards!

Killergram
04-04-2021, 06:35 PM
dear friend,
take a snapshot and post it here)))
regards!

S44148

Killergram
04-04-2021, 06:36 PM
dear friend,
take a snapshot and post it here)))
regards!

44148
44149
I did a zoom out and a zoom in one.

Killergram
04-14-2021, 03:56 AM
Hey @Vishankar,
I have been playing around in the pca plot at https://genoplot.com/pca. I dont know if this is meant to be for the g25 thread, but something intriguing happens when you add aasi. This is it without aasi.
44301
As you can see, pretty standard graph, I used iraqis as the ME extreme because they were the southern most 'northern' arabs, so I hoped it will take into account both sides of people in SA with ME ancestory. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of Brahmins are shifting towards the bottom right, towards sintashta, as opposed to populations in pakistan that are more shifted towards IVC. Anyways I did a zoom in:
44302
As you can see, I thought this would mean that Thiyyas were IVC shifted Velamas. However, after adding the simulated AASi:
44303
44304
It actually looks like thiyyas are ME shifted Velamas (Similar to Knanayas, but I think the source is closer to Yemen than IRaq), Syrian Christians look like a mix of 70-80% nair +20-30% Velama (Not thiyya!), and Nairs themselves you could say are a mix of kshatriya (I believe UP) + thiyya or Vaniya + Velama. This maybe completely wrong, but please correct me if I am.

vishankar
04-14-2021, 05:15 AM
Hey @Vishankar,
I have been playing around in the pca plot at https://genoplot.com/pca. I dont know if this is meant to be for the g25 thread, but something intriguing happens when you add aasi. This is it without aasi.
44301
As you can see, pretty standard graph, I used iraqis as the ME extreme because they were the southern most 'northern' arabs, so I hoped it will take into account both sides of people in SA with ME ancestory. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of Brahmins are shifting towards the bottom right, towards sintashta, as opposed to populations in pakistan that are more shifted towards IVC. Anyways I did a zoom in:
44302
As you can see, I thought this would mean that Thiyyas were IVC shifted Velamas. However, after adding the simulated AASi:
44303
44304
It actually looks like thiyyas are ME shifted Velamas (Similar to Knanayas, but I think the source is closer to Yemen than IRaq), Syrian Christians look like a mix of 70-80% nair +20-30% Velama (Not thiyya!), and Nairs themselves you could say are a mix of kshatriya (I believe UP) + thiyya or Vaniya + Velama. This maybe completely wrong, but please correct me if I am.

Hi...you are doing great work with those coordinates)))...well even i am learning...personally i would not add simulated AASI...it is a ghost population and just gives better fits...why not add chenchu, paniya, onge, chokhopani?....real populations with high AASI...
Cming to the second part of your query....i believe the Thiyyas could be modeled with an earlier source from the middle east..like the older arab populations...( let us see hadramaut arab, ).....the Knanayas have a history of migration from Mesopotamia...in the 4th/8th century..so my presumption is they would be closer to the Iraqis..as for the nairs....the modern day nair is a mixture of Brahmins( nambuthiri> embranthiri> tamil brahmin) with an original proto nair ..who may not be a thiyya / velama , but possibly a mix of these communities with small groups of non brahmin northerners, tamils, kannada ,telugu speakers who assumed a nair identity( i have written about this in a previous post) ...possibly a neolithic dravidian speaker base + multiple levels of admixture with non kerala genetic sources!

Killergram
04-14-2021, 05:54 AM
Hi...you are doing great work with those coordinates)))...well even i am learning...personally i would not add simulated AASI...it is a ghost population and just gives better fits...why not add chenchu, paniya, onge, chokhopani?....real populations with high AASI...
Cming to the second part of your query....i believe the Thiyyas could be modeled with an earlier source from the middle east..like the older arab populations...( let us see hadramaut arab, ).....the Knanayas have a history of migration from Mesopotamia...in the 4th/8th century..so my presumption is they would be closer to the Iraqis..as for the nairs....the modern day nair is a mixture of Brahmins( nambuthiri> embranthiri> tamil brahmin) with an original proto nair ..who may not be a thiyya / velama , but possibly a mix of these communities with small groups of non brahmin northerners, tamils, kannada ,telugu speakers who assumed a nair identity( i have written about this in a previous post) ...possibly a neolithic dravidian speaker base + multiple levels of admixture with non kerala genetic sources!

The real reason why I didnt add any of those groups is because they have an east-asian shift, which is not seen in the pulliyar. Plus, when it comes to kerala, or perhaps even the whole of South India, only Pulliyar is relevant as a source of aasi ancestory. If you can see my first graph, you could draw a line between the pulliyar and indus (which is hard to make out but is the pink dot left of kerala knanaya), and the velama is just underneath that line. This is pretty much what Razib had if I remember correctly, that Velama is a mix of aasi and IVC, with 10% sintashta.

44305
I think this is the one

Edit: Sorry
I meant
44306

Killergram
04-14-2021, 06:23 AM
Hi...you are doing great work with those coordinates)))...well even i am learning...personally i would not add simulated AASI...it is a ghost population and just gives better fits...why not add chenchu, paniya, onge, chokhopani?....real populations with high AASI...
Cming to the second part of your query....i believe the Thiyyas could be modeled with an earlier source from the middle east..like the older arab populations...( let us see hadramaut arab, ).....the Knanayas have a history of migration from Mesopotamia...in the 4th/8th century..so my presumption is they would be closer to the Iraqis..as for the nairs....the modern day nair is a mixture of Brahmins( nambuthiri> embranthiri> tamil brahmin) with an original proto nair ..who may not be a thiyya / velama , but possibly a mix of these communities with small groups of non brahmin northerners, tamils, kannada ,telugu speakers who assumed a nair identity( i have written about this in a previous post) ...possibly a neolithic dravidian speaker base + multiple levels of admixture with non kerala genetic sources!

i was also wondering if you have any g25s of nepali Brahmins and Chhetris. Just wanted to try it out with nairs to find any correlation due to the history of nairs (i think). Also do u know which caste vaniya and periyar is. I heard from somewhere they are 'upper echelon' nairs, but i maybe wrong.

vishankar
04-14-2021, 08:36 AM
i was also wondering if you have any g25s of nepali Brahmins and Chhetris. Just wanted to try it out with nairs to find any correlation due to the history of nairs (i think). Also do u know which caste vaniya and periyar is. I heard from somewhere they are 'upper echelon' nairs, but i maybe wrong.

i think the last few threads of the global 25 nmonte for south asians..contains lots of nepali brahmin coordinates..if u dont find , let me see)

vishankar
04-14-2021, 08:44 AM
i was also wondering if you have any g25s of nepali Brahmins and Chhetris. Just wanted to try it out with nairs to find any correlation due to the history of nairs (i think). Also do u know which caste vaniya and periyar is. I heard from somewhere they are 'upper echelon' nairs, but i maybe wrong.

vaniya is actually " vatakkadan nair"....considered low in the nair hierachy, poduval is very high...i think they have degenerated from being ambalavasis to nairs..and the payyanur poduval freely marries nairs and eats non vegetarian food!

Killergram
04-15-2021, 03:33 AM
vaniya is actually " vatakkadan nair"....considered low in the nair hierachy, poduval is very high...i think they have degenerated from being ambalavasis to nairs..and the payyanur poduval freely marries nairs and eats non vegetarian food!

Yeah they are an interesting group. They seem to be, atleast in the non-aasi run, IVC shifted Nambuthiris or Tamil Brahmins. If you see the post I did after that, where I posted Razib's findings, this kind of makes sense I guess.

Killergram
04-17-2021, 05:38 PM
Hey guys I am not going to be posting for a while cause of uni :( . So I decided to do this one post with PCA plots. Take into consideration not everything is probably correct with the information.
So this is the Plot zoomed out:
44368
Its interesting that all Indians (including Pulliyar) and all iranians (including Northern Arabs like iraqis) form a 'V' with kalash at the centre of it. I'm certain someone has already mentioned this before, but kalash maybe the progenitors of all indo-iranians or 'Aryans'. Anyways to more Kerala-related items, I decided to see the Middle Eastern Connections of Kerala:

44369

I removed some of the labels because it was getting hard to read. In terms of thiyyas, there were three samples only, and I have a good feelings these are all in coastal regions of Kerala. I believe one of them was from calicut. They are perhaps more Velama like the closer you get to inland, and less ME. I know you probably cant see in the image, but the orange dot in the top-right corner is 'Yemenite Arman'. I should have put in more middle eastern samples in foresight. I tried to use both Kamma (AP) and Velama to model these thiyyas, but none of them got close to the Yemenis. So I did a line between Yemenis and Thiyyas, and they appear like slightly IVC shifted velamas as the 'base' for these thiyyas. I know it is probably more complicated than this, with more than two ways of mixing, but my IQ does not exceed 130 to figure a 3-way admixture out! For Knanayas, the velamas and Kammas are probably not the base population, given the ME admix looks iranian with velama/kamma as base (which it isnt according to Razib). The red dot it crosses over are Punjabi Lahore, which I am guessing is Punjabi Dalits mixed with IVC shifted populations (like Sindhs/Baloch) upon conversion to Islam. I am assuming punjabi dalits are like the uttar Pradesh sample on the first PCA on this post. Alternatively they are IVC shifted Velamas/Kammas. From what I gathered Previously on this thread, Knanaya are characterised by No steppe and low AASI. Perhaps the dravidian 'upper class' before the second cheras resembled this 'base' for Knanayas. Now on Nairs:
44370

I want to give a big shout out to Kaazi for giving me the 'ghost population' of the Chhetris. This is basically Chhetris with the NE Asian removed (they are like 25% East Asian). You can find the co-ordinates here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14155-Global25-automated-nMonte-for-South-Central-Asian-members&p=762616&viewfull=1#post762616 . When I had pure chhetris on the graph as well as Newars, their 'East asianess' made iraqis cluster closely with Steppe and Knanaya looked like Nambuthiris! As you can see, it is possible for (proto-)chhetris to be the progenitors of Nairs with a thiyya base. If im not mistaken, i believe some nairs on this thread picked up slight ME ancestory, but I might be wrong. Alternatively (to ruin it!) they could be Jats or Kashmiri Pandits mixed with a more velama shifted thiyyas. To understand this more, we may need to see if there are any subcastes within Ezhavas, and if it is possible. There maybe a positive correlation with ME ancestory, the higher your subcaste within Ezhavas. From what i observed, Nairs are ~70% thiyya, ~30% proto-chhetri. Whatever Nasranis we have, they were not ME shifted as some of the ones I have previously seen. From what I can guestimate, they are like 80% Nair + 20% Velama. I was wrong about Vaniyas and Payyinur in them being IVC shifted Brahmins. I checked the 3D graph as well, to see if there is any difference, but there isnt. Either way, they are more 'northerly' than nairs, albeit, more in an iranian way (Naga-Scythians lol).

Edit: I guess Back in the day, we were flexing with IVC ancestory before Steppe became the new hype :) :)

vishankar
04-18-2021, 03:40 AM
Hey guys I am not going to be posting for a while cause of uni :( . So I decided to do this one post with PCA plots. Take into consideration not everything is probably correct with the information.
So this is the Plot zoomed out:
44368
Its interesting that all Indians (including Pulliyar) and all iranians (including Northern Arabs like iraqis) form a 'V' with kalash at the centre of it. I'm certain someone has already mentioned this before, but kalash maybe the progenitors of all indo-iranians or 'Aryans'. Anyways to more Kerala-related items, I decided to see the Middle Eastern Connections of Kerala:

44369

I removed some of the labels because it was getting hard to read. In terms of thiyyas, there were three samples only, and I have a good feelings these are all in coastal regions of Kerala. I believe one of them was from calicut. They are perhaps more Velama like the closer you get to inland, and less ME. I know you probably cant see in the image, but the orange dot in the top-right corner is 'Yemenite Arman'. I should have put in more middle eastern samples in foresight. I tried to use both Kamma (AP) and Velama to model these thiyyas, but none of them got close to the Yemenis. So I did a line between Yemenis and Thiyyas, and they appear like slightly IVC shifted velamas as the 'base' for these thiyyas. I know it is probably more complicated than this, with more than two ways of mixing, but my IQ does not exceed 130 to figure a 3-way admixture out! For Knanayas, the velamas and Kammas are probably not the base population, given the ME admix looks iranian with velama/kamma as base (which it isnt according to Razib). The red dot it crosses over are Punjabi Lahore, which I am guessing is Punjabi Dalits mixed with IVC shifted populations (like Sindhs/Baloch) upon conversion to Islam. I am assuming punjabi dalits are like the uttar Pradesh sample on the first PCA on this post. Alternatively they are IVC shifted Velamas/Kammas. From what I gathered Previously on this thread, Knanaya are characterised by No steppe and low AASI. Perhaps the dravidian 'upper class' before the second cheras resembled this 'base' for Knanayas. Now on Nairs:
44370

I want to give a big shout out to Kaazi for giving me the 'ghost population' of the Chhetris. This is basically Chhetris with the NE Asian removed (they are like 25% East Asian). You can find the co-ordinates here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14155-Global25-automated-nMonte-for-South-Central-Asian-members&p=762616&viewfull=1#post762616 . When I had pure chhetris on the graph as well as Newars, their 'East asianess' made iraqis cluster closely with Steppe and Knanaya looked like Nambuthiris! As you can see, it is possible for (proto-)chhetris to be the progenitors of Nairs with a thiyya base. If im not mistaken, i believe some nairs on this thread picked up slight ME ancestory, but I might be wrong. Alternatively (to ruin it!) they could be Jats or Kashmiri Pandits mixed with a more velama shifted thiyyas. To understand this more, we may need to see if there are any subcastes within Ezhavas, and if it is possible. There maybe a positive correlation with ME ancestory, the higher your subcaste within Ezhavas. From what i observed, Nairs are ~70% thiyya, ~30% proto-chhetri. Whatever Nasranis we have, they were not ME shifted as some of the ones I have previously seen. From what I can guestimate, they are like 80% Nair + 20% Velama. I was wrong about Vaniyas and Payyinur in them being IVC shifted Brahmins. I checked the 3D graph as well, to see if there is any difference, but there isnt. Either way, they are more 'northerly' than nairs, albeit, more in an iranian way (Naga-Scythians lol).

Edit: I guess Back in the day, we were flexing with IVC ancestory before Steppe became the new hype :) :)

commendable...but there is one flaw..!!!!...did u consider the nairs as admixed ??....nairs( especially in the nmonte) have a generous admixture of nambudiri blood....you would have to create a ghost proto nair too!...i still feel qpwave admix is the best way out...unfortunately i dont have linux nor the time!...

kaazi
04-18-2021, 04:17 AM
Hey guys I am not going to be posting for a while cause of uni :( . So I decided to do this one post with PCA plots. Take into consideration not everything is probably correct with the information.
So this is the Plot zoomed out:
44368
Its interesting that all Indians (including Pulliyar) and all iranians (including Northern Arabs like iraqis) form a 'V' with kalash at the centre of it. I'm certain someone has already mentioned this before, but kalash maybe the progenitors of all indo-iranians or 'Aryans'. Anyways to more Kerala-related items, I decided to see the Middle Eastern Connections of Kerala:

44369

I removed some of the labels because it was getting hard to read. In terms of thiyyas, there were three samples only, and I have a good feelings these are all in coastal regions of Kerala. I believe one of them was from calicut. They are perhaps more Velama like the closer you get to inland, and less ME. I know you probably cant see in the image, but the orange dot in the top-right corner is 'Yemenite Arman'. I should have put in more middle eastern samples in foresight. I tried to use both Kamma (AP) and Velama to model these thiyyas, but none of them got close to the Yemenis. So I did a line between Yemenis and Thiyyas, and they appear like slightly IVC shifted velamas as the 'base' for these thiyyas. I know it is probably more complicated than this, with more than two ways of mixing, but my IQ does not exceed 130 to figure a 3-way admixture out! For Knanayas, the velamas and Kammas are probably not the base population, given the ME admix looks iranian with velama/kamma as base (which it isnt according to Razib). The red dot it crosses over are Punjabi Lahore, which I am guessing is Punjabi Dalits mixed with IVC shifted populations (like Sindhs/Baloch) upon conversion to Islam. I am assuming punjabi dalits are like the uttar Pradesh sample on the first PCA on this post. Alternatively they are IVC shifted Velamas/Kammas. From what I gathered Previously on this thread, Knanaya are characterised by No steppe and low AASI. Perhaps the dravidian 'upper class' before the second cheras resembled this 'base' for Knanayas. Now on Nairs:
44370

I want to give a big shout out to Kaazi for giving me the 'ghost population' of the Chhetris. This is basically Chhetris with the NE Asian removed (they are like 25% East Asian). You can find the co-ordinates here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14155-Global25-automated-nMonte-for-South-Central-Asian-members&p=762616&viewfull=1#post762616 . When I had pure chhetris on the graph as well as Newars, their 'East asianess' made iraqis cluster closely with Steppe and Knanaya looked like Nambuthiris! As you can see, it is possible for (proto-)chhetris to be the progenitors of Nairs with a thiyya base. If im not mistaken, i believe some nairs on this thread picked up slight ME ancestory, but I might be wrong. Alternatively (to ruin it!) they could be Jats or Kashmiri Pandits mixed with a more velama shifted thiyyas. To understand this more, we may need to see if there are any subcastes within Ezhavas, and if it is possible. There maybe a positive correlation with ME ancestory, the higher your subcaste within Ezhavas. From what i observed, Nairs are ~70% thiyya, ~30% proto-chhetri. Whatever Nasranis we have, they were not ME shifted as some of the ones I have previously seen. From what I can guestimate, they are like 80% Nair + 20% Velama. I was wrong about Vaniyas and Payyinur in them being IVC shifted Brahmins. I checked the 3D graph as well, to see if there is any difference, but there isnt. Either way, they are more 'northerly' than nairs, albeit, more in an iranian way (Naga-Scythians lol).

Edit: I guess Back in the day, we were flexing with IVC ancestory before Steppe became the new hype :) :)

Interesting. Last time I plotted many South Asians including Telugu Brahmin, Kerala Nambudiris and Nairs in genoplot, they overlapped with UP, Bengali Brahmins and UP Kshatriyas which indicates their West Eurasian ness is on par with North Indian upper castes. Are they some kind of Brahminical populations that migrated from ancient North India?

As Pegasus says, Nepal Khas Brahmins are L657 rich ppl from PGW sites of Haryana-Northwest UP region. Last time I checked a Rajasthani-Haryana Brahmin who scored closer to Khas Brahmins. Khas Brahmin and Khas Chhetri shows affinity to PGW circle rather than Potohar-Kashmir Himalayan circle.

vishankar
04-18-2021, 05:52 AM
Interesting. Last time I plotted many South Asians including Telugu Brahmin, Kerala Nambudiris and Nairs in genoplot, they overlapped with UP, Bengali Brahmins and UP Kshatriyas which indicates their West Eurasian ness is on par with North Indian upper castes. Are they some kind of Brahminical populations that migrated from ancient North India?

As Pegasus says, Nepal Khas Brahmins are L657 rich ppl from PGW sites of Haryana-Northwest UP region. Last time I checked a Rajasthani-Haryana Brahmin who scored closer to Khas Brahmins. Khas Brahmin and Khas Chhetri shows affinity to PGW circle rather than Potohar-Kashmir Himalayan circle.

it makes sense...ahikshetra is one of the PGW sites...and the keralalolpathi mentions the nambuthiri - nair migration from ahikshtra!!

vishankar
04-18-2021, 05:54 AM
this page on wikipedia is interesting!......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painted_Grey_Ware_culture

vishankar
04-18-2021, 08:12 AM
this page on wikipedia is interesting!......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painted_Grey_Ware_culture

kaazi
04-18-2021, 09:01 AM
it makes sense...ahikshetra is one of the PGW sites...and the keralalolpathi mentions the nambuthiri - nair migration from ahikshtra!!

Really dont know since we have no recorded evidences of connection to core PGW region such as Haryana, West UP. A lil bardic legends point to a fictional "Jalandhar Pradesh" possibly East Punjab/North Haryana maybe? PGW modelling works good for Bahuns and Chhetris.

Target: Nepal_Khas_Brahmin_Average
Distance: 1.3077% / 0.01307725
42.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
42.2 PGW
8.8 IND_Roopkund_A:I6942
6.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

Target: Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya_(Chhetri)_proxy_Bahun:Ba15
Distance: 2.1409% / 0.02140859
37.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
32.0 PGW
22.6 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
8.0 IND_Roopkund_A:I6942

vishankar
04-18-2021, 09:23 AM
Really dont know since we have no recorded evidences of connection to core PGW region such as Haryana, West UP. A lil bardic legends point to a fictional "Jalandhar Pradesh" possibly East Punjab/North Haryana maybe? PGW modelling works good for Bahuns and Chhetris.

Target: Nepal_Khas_Brahmin_Average
Distance: 1.3077% / 0.01307725
42.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
42.2 PGW
8.8 IND_Roopkund_A:I6942
6.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

Target: Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya_(Chhetri)_proxy_Bahun:Ba15
Distance: 2.1409% / 0.02140859
37.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
32.0 PGW
22.6 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
8.0 IND_Roopkund_A:I6942

hi..you used vahaduo??

kaazi
04-18-2021, 10:09 AM
hi..you used vahaduo??

yeah vahaduo.

vishankar
04-18-2021, 11:30 AM
yeah vahaduo.

on which of those charts in Vahaduo is PGW available..i could not find it.

kaazi
04-18-2021, 03:21 PM
on which of those charts in Vahaduo is PGW available..i could not find it.

Ghost coords created by pegasus bro.



PGW,0.11525513,0.07894913,-0.00943616,0.06343942,-0.03776023,0.03315223,-0.00002532,0.00122326,-0.02727416,-0.03528923,-0.00768671,-0.00219961,0.00251923,-0.02232429,0.01718819,0.01440248,-0.01278465,-0.00047832,0.00047713,-0.01145439,-0.0068791,0.000694,0.00385148,0.00434297,0.0058445 8
PGW_Ror, 0.10289613,0.06506167,-0.034712,0.0663798,-0.05386967,0.03848693,0.0025954,-0.0009642,-0.02803333,-0.03224367,-0.00566567,0.00018013,-0.00102727,-0.01826387,0.02296393,0.0185566,-0.00696807,0.00094573,0.0007516,-0.01335913,-0.00503273,-0.00314887,0.00380153,0.001328,0.00395987
PGW_Loebanr_o,0.0969713,0.05836455000000001,-0.027163425,0.07148170000000001,-0.042042275,0.033978525,0.0027873999999999998,-0.0026987999999999995,-0.027604950000000003,-0.033577050000000004,0.0021474249999999997,-0.0016281000000000002,-0.0019161,-0.018197025,0.02071645,0.025358025,0.0027382249999 999995,0.00289275,-0.0074475,-0.015420525000000001,-0.0050815,-0.0050969249999999995,0.0072204,0.00062925,0.00317 3025
PGW_TurkmenistanIA,0.10836905000000002,0.092709575 ,0.001461199999999998,0.0533085,-0.02649175,0.027343000000000003,0.002389175,-0.0015861249999999999,-0.037394,-0.0389303,-0.007977,-0.00108055,0.000712625,-0.020649125,0.023683075,0.018297175000000002,-0.010072175,-0.0014993,0.0013195750000000001,-0.00836305,-0.001221675,0.001184825,0.0022494999999999998,0.00 912745,0.00010474999999999985

vishankar
04-20-2021, 10:07 AM
Ghost coords created by pegasus bro.



PGW,0.11525513,0.07894913,-0.00943616,0.06343942,-0.03776023,0.03315223,-0.00002532,0.00122326,-0.02727416,-0.03528923,-0.00768671,-0.00219961,0.00251923,-0.02232429,0.01718819,0.01440248,-0.01278465,-0.00047832,0.00047713,-0.01145439,-0.0068791,0.000694,0.00385148,0.00434297,0.0058445 8
PGW_Ror, 0.10289613,0.06506167,-0.034712,0.0663798,-0.05386967,0.03848693,0.0025954,-0.0009642,-0.02803333,-0.03224367,-0.00566567,0.00018013,-0.00102727,-0.01826387,0.02296393,0.0185566,-0.00696807,0.00094573,0.0007516,-0.01335913,-0.00503273,-0.00314887,0.00380153,0.001328,0.00395987
PGW_Loebanr_o,0.0969713,0.05836455000000001,-0.027163425,0.07148170000000001,-0.042042275,0.033978525,0.0027873999999999998,-0.0026987999999999995,-0.027604950000000003,-0.033577050000000004,0.0021474249999999997,-0.0016281000000000002,-0.0019161,-0.018197025,0.02071645,0.025358025,0.0027382249999 999995,0.00289275,-0.0074475,-0.015420525000000001,-0.0050815,-0.0050969249999999995,0.0072204,0.00062925,0.00317 3025
PGW_TurkmenistanIA,0.10836905000000002,0.092709575 ,0.001461199999999998,0.0533085,-0.02649175,0.027343000000000003,0.002389175,-0.0015861249999999999,-0.037394,-0.0389303,-0.007977,-0.00108055,0.000712625,-0.020649125,0.023683075,0.018297175000000002,-0.010072175,-0.0014993,0.0013195750000000001,-0.00836305,-0.001221675,0.001184825,0.0022494999999999998,0.00 912745,0.00010474999999999985


Bhai..please empty your inbox...i cant PM you(

kaazi
04-20-2021, 01:54 PM
Bhai..please empty your inbox...i cant PM you(

Done.

vishankar
04-22-2021, 03:19 PM
hi..you used vahaduo??

i used the same components....getting a lot of roopkund a

Target: Kalashviv_scaled
Distance: 2.2379% / 0.02237877
85.6 IND_Roopkund_A
8.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
5.6 PGW_Ror

BMG
05-15-2021, 01:28 PM
Harappaworld results of a new kerala syrian christian sample who is sharing my mtdna. R30a is not so common among us.

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.73
2 Baloch 34.37
3 Caucasian 7.14
4 NE-Euro 3.49
5 SE-Asian 2.34
6 Beringian 1.2
7 NE-Asian 0.93
8 American 0.91
9 SW-Asian 0.55
10 Papuan 0.33

Smanj1234
06-02-2021, 08:48 AM
Kerala syrian christians score such low asi yet look so aasi influenced. In Tamil brahmins from what I have seen their is no genetic difference between all subsects like Iyengars , Brahcharanam iyers, vadama iyers etc but still the vadama iyers look much more northern than the other Iyers and Iyengars the rest of the iyer subsects and Iyengars look no different from standard Tamils but vadamas show a clear shift in phenotype atleast, I wonder what is the reason. Some iyengars https://images.app.goo.gl/JMA1HvWFomoA26zN7 , some non vadama iyers https://images.app.goo.gl/UW6MSKejijgy9onz6 and some vadama iyers who show clear phenotypical shift https://images.app.goo.gl/mjdiXrmGngnmwfwK9.

BMG
06-02-2021, 03:12 PM
Kerala syrian christians score such low asi yet look so aasi influenced.

No They are not low AASI genetically. On an average they have higher AASI than kerala brahmin,ambalavasi and nair groups.

Smanj1234
06-02-2021, 04:11 PM
So are the Knanyas mostly nair but with some middle eastern ancestry.

BMG
06-02-2021, 04:27 PM
So are the Knanyas mostly nair but with some middle eastern ancestry.

They could be modelled as Nair sans steppe with some middle eastern ancestry. But I would not say they have actual nair ancestry. Their indian ancestors would most probably be some kind of traders who lived in present day Kodungalloor. Trying to find actual ancestry from present day castes would be a futile exercise as the social fabric during their probable time of ethnogenesis was very different from today and we don't actually know much about that due lack of available history.

Smanj1234
06-02-2021, 07:00 PM
Interesting , how do the kerala iyers score they seem to score much higher steppe than Tamil brahmins
Bengali 0.152 0.413 0.435
Cochin_Jews 0.212 0.188 0.6
K_Bunt 0.197 0.307 0.496
K_Ezhava 0.147 0.281 0.572
K_Iyer 0.271 0.164 0.565
K_Knanaya 0.149 0.186 0.665
K_Mapilla 0.141 0.293 0.565
K_Nair 0.172 0.244 0.584
K_Nambudiri 0.248 0.183 0.569
K_Nasrani 0.134 0.27 0.596
K_Poduval 0.2 0.276 0.524
K_Vaniya 0.215 0.139 0.646
K_Varma 0.213 0.116 0.67
Brahui 0.236 -0.181 0.945
Mumbai_Jews 0.271 -0.134 0.863
Patel 0.167 0.27 0.562
Pulliyar 0.05 0.575 0.375
TamilBrahmin 0.191 0.262 0.547
UP_Brahmin 0.293 0.223 0.484
Velamas 0.101 0.298 0.601
the difference seems to be big or is that the Kerala iyers are of a different subsect from what I have heard many Kerala iyers are vadamas who are the most recent migrants and maybe the ones in Tamilnadu have mixed more with the aasi subsects while the vadama iyers in Kerala have remained endogamous .

BMG
06-03-2021, 04:52 PM
Malayali Hindu Kit

Ydna: Q-L940 Mtdna:U2
His Harappaworld results. Interestingly very high SW Asian

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 49.77
2 Baloch 35.65
3 SW-Asian 3.82
4 Caucasian 3.05
5 SE-Asian 2.09
6 NE-Euro 1.73
7 Papuan 1.66
8 Beringian 0.84
9 NE-Asian 0.72
10 Pygmy 0.38
11 E-African 0.2
12 San 0.07


His Close relative is a nair with below harappa

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 51.26
2 Baloch 37.85
3 Caucasian 3.85
4 NE-Euro 2.89
5 SW-Asian 1.52
6 Beringian 0.93
7 American 0.79
8 Papuan 0.5
9 Pygmy 0.28
10 San 0.13


A few other malayali hindu kits as well

Ydna:R2 Mtdna:R0

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 55.84
2 Baloch 33.22
3 SE-Asian 3.2
4 Caucasian 2.79
5 SW-Asian 2.29
6 NE-Euro 1.33
7 Papuan 0.99
8 American 0.34


Ydna:R-L295 mtdna:R5a2

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 54.93
2 Baloch 32.98
3 Caucasian 7.55
4 SE-Asian 1.56
5 Papuan 1.09
6 NE-Asian 0.81
7 American 0.55
8 Beringian 0.53


Ydna:H-Z4507 mtdna:R8a1

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 52.53
2 Baloch 31.43
3 NE-Euro 4.45
4 Caucasian 3.88
5 SW-Asian 2.67
6 NE-Asian 2.02
7 Siberian 1.76
8 Mediterranean 0.6
9 Papuan 0.58
10 Pygmy 0.08


Ydna:L-M27 mtdna:R0

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 57.1
2 Baloch 33.4
3 Beringian 2.49
4 Mediterranean 1.55
5 Caucasian 1.19
6 San 0.87
7 NE-Asian 0.72
8 E-African 0.68
9 SW-Asian 0.67
10 Papuan 0.55
11 SE-Asian 0.51
12 W-African 0.28


Ydna:J2 mtdna:U1a3

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 53.73
2 Baloch 33.42
3 Caucasian 3.85
4 NE-Euro 2.9
5 NE-Asian 2.07
6 SW-Asian 1.8
7 Papuan 1.67
8 Pygmy 0.45
9 Mediterranean 0.05
10 American 0.04
11 Beringian 0.03


mtdna:U1a1

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 52.3
2 Baloch 30.8
3 Caucasian 9.85
4 SW-Asian 2.78
5 NE-Asian 2.21
6 Papuan 0.88
7 Siberian 0.59
8 SE-Asian 0.49
9 San 0.09

vishankar
06-10-2021, 07:35 AM
They could be modelled as Nair sans steppe with some middle eastern ancestry. But I would not say they have actual nair ancestry. Their indian ancestors would most probably be some kind of traders who lived in present day Kodungalloor. Trying to find actual ancestry from present day castes would be a futile exercise as the social fabric during their probable time of ethnogenesis was very different from today and we don't actually know much about that due lack of available history.

do you think qpwave admin would help???