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BMG
07-19-2014, 03:15 PM
Starting this thread for discussion regarding Kerala YDNA distribution and updates .

Link to the ftdna kerala project which now have around 100 members .
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/kerala/default.aspx?section=yresults
also have syrian christian project and smaller nair project
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/syrianchristiansofindia/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

Haplogroup C
Haplogroup C is found in very high numbers among the tribals but very low among general population . Most of the C belongs to C-M356 and its subclade C-P92 but there is some C* as well . There are two C-F1370 from geno 2.0 which i believe is at same level as M356 .Among the C samples 2 of them are nairs and two are hindus (dont know the caste) .One of the Geno 2.0 sample is of a namboothiri brahmin .i also know of a C5a mappila muslim guy tested through 23andme

Haplogroup F*
F* is the most common haplogroup among the tribal populations but the only one results known so far from commercial testing (N31347 Pillai). The Pillai is a nair subcaste or rather a title given to nairs especially in south kerala .

Haplogroup G
Only G sample i know of is G2a3a which is from a coastal family from kodungallur . Though from Arunkumar et al study we know there is some G among Ezhavas and Nadars .Both are major communities in southern kerala .

BMG
07-19-2014, 04:08 PM
Haplogroup J

Haplogroup J2 especially J2a is an important haplogroup among the syrian christians .Three different clades of J-L26 are found among them ie 4 L243 ones ,the L534 one which is the ydna of the project administrator ,and 1 L26+ L192.2- L243- . There is one J-L26 guy over at geno 2.0 as well . The J2a among the syrian christians are argued to be the proof for their partial west asian/jewish descent. But the absence of other lines works against this argument .The autosomal data also works against but i will discuss it sometime later .There are 2 J-M68 samples which seems like a south asian specific clade .Other J2a have too few markers/ not further SNP tested .
Among the nine J2b2 samples from the ftdna 4 are syrian christians and 5 are hindus with at least one of them a nair . There is one ambiguous result (132944 sebastian) who happen to be M12- and M420- .
There was on old study which found JxJ2 among mappila muslims . I will try and locate it . It seems an obvious possibility as there are many known marriage ties between them and arabs.The custom called ' arabikalyanam '( in which the poor families marry their daughter to an arab for money who would abandon her and children after sometime) is even happening today and is considered as a social evil . Other than that many of the descendants of the arab ship builders and carpenters are still among them . The marakkars are one such group . As a group the mappila muslims are not into genetic testing so we have to wait till more of them are tested .

Edit : i found the study about the mappila muslims
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n3/abs/ejhg2009168a.html

BMG
07-20-2014, 08:28 AM
Haplogroup H
Haplogroup H is quite diverse in kerala which is expected (H-M69,H-M52,H-APT,H-M82).It is most common haplogroup after R1a among the ezhavas and is prominent among all groups .H1a-M82 is most common subclade . The Kit number 151474 is negative for all the subgroups of H-M69 . Among syrian christians around 10% are some kind of H .

One of my ancestral lines through my fathers side claimed through their documented family history that they were direct descendants of one of the merchants who migrated from iraq . Someone on that family had tested their ydna and found out they belong to H1a-M82 to their surprise . He is planning to order family finder test as well . A point taken was much of the family history was fabricated at a much later date with some oral traditions mixed with some interesting story of their own since there was hardly any documentation even two hundred years ago.

Humanist
07-20-2014, 09:09 AM
Haplogroup H
Haplogroup H is quite diverse in kerala which is expected (H-M69,H-M52,H-APT,H-M82).It is most common haplogroup after R1a among the ezhavas and is prominent among all groups .H1a-M82 is most common subclade . The Kit number 151474 is negative for all the subgroups of H-M69 . Among syrian christians around 10% are some kind of H .

One of my ancestral lines through my fathers side claimed through their documented family history that they were direct descendants of one of the merchants who migrated from iraq . Someone on that family had tested their ydna and found out they belong to H1a-M82 to their surprise . He is planning to order family finder test as well . A point taken was much of the family history was fabricated at a much later date with some oral traditions mixed with some interesting story of their own since there was hardly any documentation even two hundred years ago.

I am not sure if this is related in any way, but one of the four S Iraqi Mandaeans that we have Y-DNA data for is Y-DNA H (kit #189683). Iraqi Mandaeans once spoke a language related to Sureth and Jewish Babylonian, and part of the Eastern Aramaic family of languages spoken in Asōristān, which also included liturgical Syriac.

BMG
07-21-2014, 04:16 PM
The chances of H1a-M82 ancestor to be from iraq is infinitesimally low but cant be ruled out completely .Any way i think the Iraqi Mandaen guy must have had ancestor coming from south asia at some time especially if he is H1a-M82 .There is some south asian ydna among gulf arabs which would have possibly reached through southern coast via Bandar-e-Abbas .

BMG
07-21-2014, 04:54 PM
Haplogroup L
L-M27 and L-M357 are present among keralites. L-M27 has higher frequencies along the konkan coast from maharashtra to kerala .Around 15% of total kerala pop would be L-M27 .It is the most frequent haplogroup among nadars who are mostly in tiruvananthapuram district in kerala and kanyakumari and tirunelveli districts in tamilnadu . L-M357 on other hand is rare but has its presence in even tribal populations which makes me think it has an older presence perhaps even older than L-M27 .L-M357 has unusually higher frequencies in syrian christians .But out of 10 known results among them six of them belong to a minority group called knanaya christians who are highly endogamous people within in the syrian christian community . One of the most surprising thing is that so far all tested knanaya mtdna belongs to a single haplogroup M33a2 .Their ydna stats is L1c-M357 -6/9 L1a-M27-2/9 J2b2 -1/9 .

Mandoos
07-21-2014, 06:03 PM
Haplogroup H
Haplogroup H is quite diverse in kerala which is expected (H-M69,H-M52,H-APT,H-M82).It is most common haplogroup after R1a among the ezhavas and is prominent among all groups .H1a-M82 is most common subclade . The Kit number 151474 is negative for all the subgroups of H-M69 . Among syrian christians around 10% are some kind of H .

One of my ancestral lines through my fathers side claimed through their documented family history that they were direct descendants of one of the merchants who migrated from iraq . Someone on that family had tested their ydna and found out they belong to H1a-M82 to their surprise . He is planning to order family finder test as well . A point taken was much of the family history was fabricated at a much later date with some oral traditions mixed with some interesting story of their own since there was hardly any documentation even two hundred years ago.

He was knanaya?

BMG
07-22-2014, 02:52 AM
He was knanaya?
No ,This family claims more recent origins .

Humanist
07-22-2014, 11:45 PM
No ,This family claims more recent origins .

That is interesting. On a somewhat related note, in the R1a Levite thread I noted a possible connection between Iraqi Jews and Mumbai Jews that is plausible, and may be of more recent origin as well.



http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9505/8q7z.png

Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

Regarding the Iraqi Jewish and Mumbai Jewish match, this may be of relevance:


History of the Jews in Bombay, India, began when Jews started settling in Bombay during the 18th century, due to its economic opportunities.[1] The Jewish community of Bombay consisted of the remnants of three distinct communities: the Bene Israeli Jews of Konkan, the Baghdadi Jews of Iraq, and the Cochin Jews of Malabar.[2]

parasar
07-24-2014, 08:42 PM
This one has some info Kerala Jews. http://www.nazraney.com/images/Dr.MINI_Paper_JEWS_manuscript_jews.pdf
But comes to some bizarre conclusions based on Y-R1a1
http://www.nazraney.com/images/Dr.MINI_Paper_JEWS_manuscript_jews.pdf

BMG
07-26-2014, 03:13 AM
Regarding the cochin jews there are two distinct groups one native jewish group and later migrants from spain and portugal who were called paradesi jews.Most of them in both groups migrated to israel in 1950's .There was little mixing with two groups . The local jews later adopted the sephardic customs from paradesi jews .Many of them have taken 23andme tests and if get any results of one of those i will share .

BMG
08-23-2014, 01:08 PM
Haplogroup Q
Q-M346 is found at around 5% in kerala . There are 5 syrian christians results known to me . One of them tested recently for an SNP F1161 and was positive .Two nair samples are also Q-M346 . Apart from that there is a thiyya sample from geno 2.0 who is designated as Q-M147 (which i beleive to be M346+).
Also there is a solo syrian christian Q1b1a L245+ sample .

BMG
12-13-2016, 05:50 AM
Few malayali yfull additions from lolipop

Malayali Hindu ERR445242 L-M27+ L1320+ SK1426+ Z5929+

Malayali Hindu ERR445251 L-M27+ L1320+ SK1426+ Z5929+
Z5929 group has also two people from andhra and one Srilankan tamil

Malayali Hindu ERR445261 L-M27+ L1320+Z5925+ along with Lahori Punjabi and a Telugu

Malayali Christian ERR445245 E-M35+ M123+ M34+M84+ Y5427+

Malayali Christian ERR445249 H-M69+ Z5867+ Z14258+ along with a Punjabi Hindu and a Bangaldeshi

Malayali Christian ERR445257 Q-L275+ Y1150+ YP4500+ along with a Punjabi Hindu ,Russian Tatar and a Telugu

Malayali Christian ERR445284 H-M69+ M82+Z4361+ SK1225+Z5889+ along with an Urdu speaking Hindu and two Bangladeshis

Malayali Hindu ERR445264 R-M17+ Z93+ Z2123 + Y934+ YP526+ along with a Saudi and Srilankan Tamil

Malayali Christian ERR445271 R-M17+ Z93+ L657+ Y6+ Y5*+

BMG
12-13-2016, 06:05 AM
Also adding the Christian Konkanis from lolipop

ERR445247 R-M17+ Z93+ Y40+ Y37+

ERR445253 R-M124+L295+ SK2155+ along with a Telugu

ERR445256 J-M241+ Z2432+ Y978+ along with an indian Punjabi and two telugu and one srilankan tamil in subgroup Y958+

ERR445259 J-M410+ L26+ M67+ PF7394+ along with a lebanese

ERR445270 L-M357+ Y6288+ along with a qatari

ERR445288 L-M27+ Sk1426+ Z5934+ along with a telugu and srilankan tamil

BMG
12-25-2016, 07:55 AM
Two irula tribal samples from kerala
ERR1395550 L-M357+ M2398+
It belongs to mostly south asian branch of M357+ but have split earlier than most .Yfull gives an age estimate of 8000 years for the split . There is also a hindi speaking hindu sample from lolipop database in the paragroup .

ERR1395545 R-M124+ Y12100+ Y8766+ V3714+ Y1378+
Most south asian samples are V3714+ .There is a kuwaiti sample in the paragroup .and saudi ,punjabi and gujarati is downstream clades .
Yfull estimate for the subclade is 7100 years .This sample is negative to L295 .

zaki1364
02-10-2018, 09:01 AM
good morning
I am from Saudi Arabia and found a match with
Malayali Christian ERR445245 E-M35 + M123 + M34 + M84 + Y5427 +
y-fulltree
y6186 -Mutation
Do you know this person I want to communicate with me in my email

BMG
02-10-2018, 09:49 AM
good morning
I am from Saudi Arabia and found a match with
Malayali Christian ERR445245 E-M35 + M123 + M34 + M84 + Y5427 +
y-fulltree
y6186 -Mutation
Do you know this person I want to communicate with me in my email
He is an academic research sample from study conducted by lolipop an organization studying about heart diseases .

BMG
02-23-2018, 06:25 PM
Few added samples at Yfull

ERR445301 Malayali Hindu H-M82+ Z34693+

ERR445334 Malayali Muslim R-L657+ Y6+ Y43178+

ERR445338 Malayali Christian H-M82+ Z5875+

ERR445319 Malayali Christian K-Y28299 - Pretty interesting forms a different subclades when compared to two telugu samples


And a few non -malayalis

ERR445326 Tamil Muslim R-L657+ Y7+ Y31+ FGC57573+

ERR445254 Tamil Hindu H-M82+ M6344+

ERR445289 Tamil Hindu R-L657+ Y4+ M624+

ERR445294 Tamil Hindu L-M357+ Y35803+

ERR445342 Tamil Hindu R-Z2123+ Y934+ FGC51149+

ERR445336 Tamil Hindu R-Y40+

ERR445305 Konkani Muslim R-Z93+ Y34826+
ERR445307 Marathi Hindu R-Z93+ Y34826+
Both the above are Z94- and belong to same subclade

ERR445258 Marathi Hindu Q-M378+ Y29469+

ERR445293 Marathi Hindu J-M410+ M68+ Y33845+

ERR445273 Marathi Hindu R-M124+ L295+ Y28589+

ERR445268 Marathi Hindu R-L657+ Y7+ Y2568+

ERR445265 Marathi Hindu L-M27+ Y28251+

ERR445282 Gujarati Zoroastrian J-M410+ L24+ F3133+ FGC30635+

BMG
02-24-2018, 04:02 AM
R1a subclades among Syrian Christians
5 L657+ out of that 2 tested Y6+ and one Y7+
3 Y40+
1 Z2123+
1 Z2125+ Z2123-
1 Z94+ L657-

BMG
03-18-2018, 10:32 AM
Two interesting results came in kerala christians
Kit No 547178 is L283+ Z628+ which might represent the major J2b2 group among kerala christians .Two more kits N103556 and 288991 also probably belongs to same group.
.
Another sample from from kerala in Yfull is L283+
He is J-Z39653 which is downstream of Z628 +

Also kit No 288991 is also confirmed Z628+

Rustyshakelford
03-20-2018, 04:13 AM
Is this branch of M357 the same as the one seen in Syrian Christians (particularly among the Knanaya samples)?

Rustyshakelford
03-20-2018, 04:16 AM
Two irula tribal samples from kerala
ERR1395550 L-M357+ M2398+
It belongs to mostly south asian branch of M357+ but have split earlier than most .Yfull gives an age estimate of 8000 years for the split . There is also a hindi speaking hindu sample from lolipop database in the paragroup .

ERR1395545 R-M124+ Y12100+ Y8766+ V3714+ Y1378+
Most south asian samples are V3714+ .There is a kuwaiti sample in the paragroup .and saudi ,punjabi and gujarati is downstream clades .
Yfull estimate for the subclade is 7100 years .This sample is negative to L295 .

Is this M357 the same as the one seen in Syrian Christians (particularly among the Knanaya samples)?

BMG
03-20-2018, 02:18 PM
Is this M357 the same as the one seen in Syrian Christians (particularly among the Knanaya samples)?
We don't know the subclades of knanaya or other Syrian Christian samples yet

Thomas48
04-19-2018, 04:04 AM
Hello BMG,

My name is Thomas, I am a Knanaya by ethnicity and a social studies educator by profession here in the United States. I have been earnestly trying to unearth the Knanaya origins mystery for a few years now. It would seem that through a cross-cultural study that this group is Judeo-Christian-Hindu in Culture and Syrian Christian (St. Thomas Christian) in religion. Recently instead of solely relying on cross-cultural studies and comparisons, I am trying to turn towards genetics on finding the origins of this community. From what I can see across the web, the YDNA of the Knanaya is numerous and cannot really be pinpointed but the Mtdna seems to be extremely specific. The reason why I am contacting you is because I saw this post from a few years back which stated that almost all Knanaya tested have M33a2 in common for their Mtdna. Whats very amazing is that I tested myself at Family Tree DNA and my YDNA was QM242 but big surprise my MtDna is M33a2. What do you make of this? This is extremely specific and surprising. Also if you don't mind do you think you could share with me the study in which the 13 Knanaya were found to have M33a2? I would love to use it towards my research. I would agree that it seems that the Knanaya were originally a matrilineal community. Some of the oldest origins theories written down during the era of colonization seem to state that the Knanaya had a culture encompassed by the matriarch and the mothers side, while for the larger St. Thomas Christians it was the fathers side. There is an even a quote from a European observer stating that during numerous indigenous ceremonies that the Southist (Knanaya) gave importance to the mothers presence and role in the ceremonies, while for the larger St.Thomas Christians it was the fathers.

I am no geneticist so please correct me if I am wrong, I am simply going off of what I am reading at Family Tree DNA but all of the earliest Knanaya origins theories by the Knanaya themselves claim that they are the descendants of Judeo-Christian immigrants to India. They believe that their ancestors came from Syria or possibly somewhere else in the Middle East, other popular theories stating Yemen. What is interesting is that for my M33a2, my first highest match (HVR1) was India but my second was actually surprisingly Syria.

Thanks

bmoney
04-19-2018, 04:47 AM
For the Nair caste grouping this is what I could I find in regards to Y-DNA.

The dominant theme is R1a followed by J, R2, and H. I noticed R2 was weak in my north Kerala (presumably) relatives compared to the FTDNA Kerala wide distribution.

Sample sizes are low for both:

FTDNA n=23:


Row Labels Count of Y-dna
R1a 40.91%
R2a 13.64%
H 13.64%
J2 13.64%
Q 9.09%
C-M130 4.55%
F 4.55%

My 23andme relatives (North Kerala presumably) n=20:


Row Labels Count of Broad y-dna Grouping
R1a 10 50%
J2 3 15%
H 2 10%
Q 1 5%
R2 1 5%
E 1 5%
C 1 5%
L1a 1 5%

bmoney
04-20-2018, 06:05 AM
Hello BMG,

My name is Thomas, I am a Knanaya by ethnicity and a social studies educator by profession here in the United States. I have been earnestly trying to unearth the Knanaya origins mystery for a few years now. It would seem that through a cross-cultural study that this group is Judeo-Christian-Hindu in Culture and Syrian Christian (St. Thomas Christian) in religion. Recently instead of solely relying on cross-cultural studies and comparisons, I am trying to turn towards genetics on finding the origins of this community. From what I can see across the web, the YDNA of the Knanaya is numerous and cannot really be pinpointed but the Mtdna seems to be extremely specific. The reason why I am contacting you is because I saw this post from a few years back which stated that almost all Knanaya tested have M33a2 in common for their Mtdna. Whats very amazing is that I tested myself at Family Tree DNA and my YDNA was QM242 but big surprise my MtDna is M33a2. What do you make of this? This is extremely specific and surprising. Also if you don't mind do you think you could share with me the study in which the 13 Knanaya were found to have M33a2? I would love to use it towards my research. I would agree that it seems that the Knanaya were originally a matrilineal community. Some of the oldest origins theories written down during the era of colonization seem to state that the Knanaya had a culture encompassed by the matriarch and the mothers side, while for the larger St. Thomas Christians it was the fathers side. There is an even a quote from a European observer stating that during numerous indigenous ceremonies that the Southist (Knanaya) gave importance to the mothers presence and role in the ceremonies, while for the larger St.Thomas Christians it was the fathers.

I am no geneticist so please correct me if I am wrong, I am simply going off of what I am reading at Family Tree DNA but all of the earliest Knanaya origins theories by the Knanaya themselves claim that they are the descendants of Judeo-Christian immigrants to India. They believe that their ancestors came from Syria or possibly somewhere else in the Middle East, other popular theories stating Yemen. What is interesting is that for my M33a2, my first highest match (HVR1) was India but my second was actually surprisingly Syria.

Thanks

Hi Thomas,

Can you upload your dna raw data to gedmatch and run the Harappaworld admixture calculator and post the results here

I'm interested in Knanaya ancestry, particularly due to the historical tradition of Judeo-Christian ancestry

From your y-DNA, it is unlikely that your paternal ancestry lies in West Asia as Q along with R1a largely came via Iron age steppe immigrants from Central Asia to Kerala via North India, so your line is likely a forward caste Hindu line that has been assimilated.

A more likely Judeo-Christian y line is haplogroup E, or haplogroup J lines that are not common in South India, ie not J2-M172 and J-M410

Thomas48
04-20-2018, 06:22 AM
Sure I would be happy to do this. I am however not sure how to access the raw dna file to upload onto Gedmatch. Yes the Knanaya community is particularly interesting topic, they have Judeo-Christian culture but seem to lack the genetic backing, with many being of the Y Haplogroup L and a striking amount being within the specific MtDNA group M33a2. With all this being said, I have seen on numerous online forums that the Knanaya do seem to have some West Asian ancestry here and there, tho nothing is conclusive at the moment. Im not sure if I would be able to upload to Gedmatch, I found the link to the raw file upload but it seems FTDNA requires you have to take the family finder test?

bmoney
04-20-2018, 06:28 AM
Sure I would be happy to do this. I am however not sure how to access the raw dna file to upload onto Gedmatch. Yes the Knanaya community is particularly interesting topic, they have Judeo-Christian culture but seem to lack the genetic backing, with many being of the Y Haplogroup L and a striking amount being within the specific MtDNA group M33a2. With all this being said, I have seen on numerous online forums that the Knanaya do seem to have some West Asian ancestry here and there, tho nothing is conclusive at the moment. Im not sure if I would be able to upload to Gedmatch, I found the link to the raw file upload but it seems FTDNA requires you have to take the family finder test?

It is likely your autosomal dna will show that West Asian ancestry even if your y-dna does not, as your y-line is just one ancestor of many

I've sent you a private message

Thomas48
04-20-2018, 06:33 AM
I cannot private message at the moment, due to the lack of posts. However it seems that in order to have Autosomal DNA results I need to take the Family Finder Test on FTDNA, which I have not done yet. I have taken their Y37 and MtDNA tests.

bmoney
04-20-2018, 06:53 AM
I cannot private message at the moment, due to the lack of posts. However it seems that in order to have Autosomal DNA results I need to take the Family Finder Test on FTDNA, which I have not done yet. I have taken their Y37 and MtDNA tests.

Yep FTDNA is a good company for autosomal DNA, I recommend you do it

We have plenty of South Asia related knowledge on this forum, so will be able to guide you on how related you are to other South Asians, West Asians etc

Your result can be a proxy for the Knanaya community on our PCA plots

Thomas48
04-20-2018, 12:14 PM
Cool Iíll keep this in mind. Iíll be taking the autosomal test soon, Iíll share the results here. My Knanaya friend has also taken the Y37 and MtDNA on FTDNA, Iíll share those as well.

Afshar
04-20-2018, 01:07 PM
Cool I’ll keep this in mind. I’ll be taking the autosomal test soon, I’ll share the results here. My Knanaya friend has also taken the Y37 and MtDNA on FTDNA, I’ll share those as well.

Did you join the haplogroup Q project, or do you know to which clade of Q you belong?

Thomas48
04-20-2018, 09:28 PM
I'm sorry I'm still quite new to this, what do you mean by clade? I took the Y37 test and my results put me in Haplogroup Q and specifically QM242.

BMG
04-21-2018, 01:23 AM
Hello BMG,

My name is Thomas, I am a Knanaya by ethnicity and a social studies educator by profession here in the United States. I have been earnestly trying to unearth the Knanaya origins mystery for a few years now. It would seem that through a cross-cultural study that this group is Judeo-Christian-Hindu in Culture and Syrian Christian (St. Thomas Christian) in religion. Recently instead of solely relying on cross-cultural studies and comparisons, I am trying to turn towards genetics on finding the origins of this community. From what I can see across the web, the YDNA of the Knanaya is numerous and cannot really be pinpointed but the Mtdna seems to be extremely specific. The reason why I am contacting you is because I saw this post from a few years back which stated that almost all Knanaya tested have M33a2 in common for their Mtdna. Whats very amazing is that I tested myself at Family Tree DNA and my YDNA was QM242 but big surprise my MtDna is M33a2. What do you make of this? This is extremely specific and surprising. Also if you don't mind do you think you could share with me the study in which the 13 Knanaya were found to have M33a2? I would love to use it towards my research. I would agree that it seems that the Knanaya were originally a matrilineal community. Some of the oldest origins theories written down during the era of colonization seem to state that the Knanaya had a culture encompassed by the matriarch and the mothers side, while for the larger St. Thomas Christians it was the fathers side. There is an even a quote from a European observer stating that during numerous indigenous ceremonies that the Southist (Knanaya) gave importance to the mothers presence and role in the ceremonies, while for the larger St.Thomas Christians it was the fathers.

I am no geneticist so please correct me if I am wrong, I am simply going off of what I am reading at Family Tree DNA but all of the earliest Knanaya origins theories by the Knanaya themselves claim that they are the descendants of Judeo-Christian immigrants to India. They believe that their ancestors came from Syria or possibly somewhere else in the Middle East, other popular theories stating Yemen. What is interesting is that for my M33a2, my first highest match (HVR1) was India but my second was actually surprisingly Syria.

Thanks

Including You there are now 16 knanaya M33a2 . All the M33a2 in Syrian Christian FTDNA project is knanaya .Further I know few [email protected] tested people and a few gedmatch matches including a guy who was member here.
The Syrian match could be knanaya guy who used to give the country of origin in FTDNA as Syria . You can contact the match and confirm that .

BMG
04-21-2018, 01:28 AM
For the Nair caste grouping this is what I could I find in regards to Y-DNA.

The dominant theme is R1a followed by J, R2, and H. I noticed R2 was weak in my north Kerala (presumably) relatives compared to the FTDNA Kerala wide distribution.

Sample sizes are low for both:

FTDNA n=23:


Row Labels Count of Y-dna
R1a 40.91%
R2a 13.64%
H 13.64%
J2 13.64%
Q 9.09%
C-M130 4.55%
F 4.55%

My 23andme relatives (North Kerala presumably) n=20:


Row Labels Count of Broad y-dna Grouping
R1a 10 50%
J2 3 15%
H 2 10%
Q 1 5%
R2 1 5%
E 1 5%
C 1 5%
L1a 1 5%

Both R2 from FTDNA project is from north kerala.Further my friend who is a nair from ottapalam is also R2

BMG
04-21-2018, 01:42 AM
Hi Thomas,

Can you upload your dna raw data to gedmatch and run the Harappaworld admixture calculator and post the results here

I'm interested in Knanaya ancestry, particularly due to the historical tradition of Judeo-Christian ancestry

From your y-DNA, it is unlikely that your paternal ancestry lies in West Asia as Q along with R1a largely came via Iron age steppe immigrants from Central Asia to Kerala via North India, so your line is likely a forward caste Hindu line that has been assimilated.

A more likely Judeo-Christian y line is haplogroup E, or haplogroup J lines that are not common in South India, ie not J2-M172 and J-M410

There are few knanaya kits in gedmatch . The show higher Caucasian and SW Asian than Syrian Christian average .

bmoney
04-21-2018, 01:44 AM
There are few knanaya kits in gedmatch . The show higher Caucasian and SW Asian than Syrian Christian average .

could you post them here

BMG
04-21-2018, 01:49 AM
I'm sorry I'm still quite new to this, what do you mean by clade? I took the Y37 test and my results put me in Haplogroup Q and specifically QM242.

I am also interested in your subclade since haplogroups Q among Syrian Christians is diverse .All the tested people belong to different subclade
You have order a SNP Pack or more costly BigY to know your exact subclade

BMG
04-21-2018, 02:04 AM
could you post them here


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.46
2 Baloch 34.83
3 Caucasian 11.67
4 SW-Asian 2.52
5 Papuan 2.14
6 SE-Asian 1.81
7 Mediterranean 0.94
8 NE-Asian 0.8
9 Siberian 0.55
10 American 0.27
# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.3
2 Baloch 33.38
3 Caucasian 10.12
4 SW-Asian 2.69
5 NE-Euro 2.6
6 SE-Asian 2.55
7 NE-Asian 0.6
8 W-African 0.21
9 American 0.19
10 Siberian 0.18
11 Beringian 0.09
12 Papuan 0.09

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.56
2 Baloch 35.39
3 Caucasian 9.52
4 SW-Asian 5.46
5 SE-Asian 2.94
6 Papuan 0.94
7 NE-Euro 0.72
8 E-African 0.68
9 San 0.4
10 Mediterranean 0.39


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 42.84
2 Baloch 34.03
3 Caucasian 9.15
4 SW-Asian 5.41
5 NE-Euro 2.31
6 SE-Asian 2.07
7 NE-Asian 1.36
8 Beringian 1.3
9 Siberian 0.47
10 Mediterranean 0.36
11 Papuan 0.25
12 San 0.2
13 W-African 0.18
14 Pygmy 0.07

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.28
2 Baloch 35.32
3 Caucasian 8.42
4 SW-Asian 3.8
5 NE-Euro 2.62
6 SE-Asian 1.48
7 American 0.76
8 Beringian 0.67
9 Siberian 0.66
10 Papuan 0.39
11 Pygmy 0.37
12 E-African 0.22


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.13
2 Baloch 33.16
3 Caucasian 9.11
4 SW-Asian 4.32
5 NE-Euro 2.22
6 SE-Asian 1.27
7 Papuan 1.12
8 American 1.04
9 Siberian 0.72
10 NE-Asian 0.51
11 Mediterranean 0.4
12 Pygmy 0.01

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.64
2 Baloch 34.31
3 Caucasian 10.34
4 SW-Asian 3.12
5 SE-Asian 2.19
6 NE-Euro 2.04
7 NE-Asian 1.38
8 Beringian 0.47
9 Papuan 0.2
10 Siberian 0.19
11 American 0.14

bmoney
04-21-2018, 02:19 AM
# Population Percent ....

EDIT: double post

bmoney
04-21-2018, 02:21 AM
# Population Percent ....

This is the real deal, they have low NE Euro and Baloch and elevated Caucasian and SW Asian

Definite West Asian ancestry IMO mixed with local Dravidians (South Indian, SE Asian, Papuan)

@BMG any ideas which L subclade is more common among the Knanaya - since L-M27 is more associated with the Gulf than northern L1a2 I'm pretty sure its the former

Also what is the L distribution among them % wise?

BMG
04-21-2018, 02:26 AM
This is the real deal, they have low NE Euro and Baloch and elevated Caucasian and SW Asian

Definite West Asian ancestry IMO mixed with local Dravidians (South Indian, SE Asian, Papuan)

@BMG any ideas which L subclade is more common among the Knanaya - since L-M27 is more associated with the Gulf than northern L1a2 I'm pretty sure its the former

Also what is the L distribution among them % wise?

They are mostly L1c but they would form their own sub group. Though my maternal grandfather is L1c he is different from knanaya ones in STR . So might be in a different subgroup

Thomas48
04-21-2018, 03:41 AM
Thanks for the response. So it seems that the Knanaya have a very high autosomal match to the Baloch People of Iran?

Thomas48
04-21-2018, 03:46 AM
# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.46
2 Baloch 34.83
3 Caucasian 11.67
4 SW-Asian 2.52
5 Papuan 2.14
6 SE-Asian 1.81
7 Mediterranean 0.94
8 NE-Asian 0.8
9 Siberian 0.55
10 American 0.27
# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.3
2 Baloch 33.38
3 Caucasian 10.12
4 SW-Asian 2.69
5 NE-Euro 2.6
6 SE-Asian 2.55
7 NE-Asian 0.6
8 W-African 0.21
9 American 0.19
10 Siberian 0.18
11 Beringian 0.09
12 Papuan 0.09

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.56
2 Baloch 35.39
3 Caucasian 9.52
4 SW-Asian 5.46
5 SE-Asian 2.94
6 Papuan 0.94
7 NE-Euro 0.72
8 E-African 0.68
9 San 0.4
10 Mediterranean 0.39


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 42.84
2 Baloch 34.03
3 Caucasian 9.15
4 SW-Asian 5.41
5 NE-Euro 2.31
6 SE-Asian 2.07
7 NE-Asian 1.36
8 Beringian 1.3
9 Siberian 0.47
10 Mediterranean 0.36
11 Papuan 0.25
12 San 0.2
13 W-African 0.18
14 Pygmy 0.07

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.28
2 Baloch 35.32
3 Caucasian 8.42
4 SW-Asian 3.8
5 NE-Euro 2.62
6 SE-Asian 1.48
7 American 0.76
8 Beringian 0.67
9 Siberian 0.66
10 Papuan 0.39
11 Pygmy 0.37
12 E-African 0.22


# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.13
2 Baloch 33.16
3 Caucasian 9.11
4 SW-Asian 4.32
5 NE-Euro 2.22
6 SE-Asian 1.27
7 Papuan 1.12
8 American 1.04
9 Siberian 0.72
10 NE-Asian 0.51
11 Mediterranean 0.4
12 Pygmy 0.01

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.64
2 Baloch 34.31
3 Caucasian 10.34
4 SW-Asian 3.12
5 SE-Asian 2.19
6 NE-Euro 2.04
7 NE-Asian 1.38
8 Beringian 0.47
9 Papuan 0.2
10 Siberian 0.19
11 American 0.14

If I understand this correctly. The Knanaya so far have a high autosomal match to the Baloch people of Iran?

bmoney
04-21-2018, 04:33 AM
Thanks for the response. So it seems that the Knanaya have a very high autosomal match to the Baloch People of Iran?

No the Baloch component is an Indus Valley-like genetic component (peaks in the Pakistani Baloch hence the name) that all South Asians share ancestry from. It is an ancient component in South Asia along with 'South Indian'

Baloch is actually at lower levels in the Knanaya than most upper caste South Indians.

In the case of the Knanaya, that is due to relatively high levels of Caucasus and SW Asia ancestry compared to other Malayalis. These components indicate that recent West Asian admixture has diluted the existing South Asian (Baloch+South Indian) genetic base

Thomas48
04-21-2018, 05:33 AM
No the Baloch component is an Indus Valley-like genetic component (peaks in the Pakistani Baloch hence the name) that all South Asians share ancestry from. It is an ancient component in South Asia along with 'South Indian'

Baloch is actually at lower levels in the Knanaya than most upper caste South Indians.

In the case of the Knanaya, that is due to relatively high levels of Caucasus and SW Asia ancestry compared to other Malayalis. These components indicate that recent West Asian admixture has diluted the existing South Asian (Baloch+South Indian) genetic base

Thanks for the clarification, so is 10% Caucasian and around 5% West Asian considered high compared to other Malayalees and Syrian Christians?

BMG
04-21-2018, 04:35 PM
Thanks for the clarification, so is 10% Caucasian and around 5% West Asian considered high compared to other Malayalees and Syrian Christians?

Syrian christians do have higher Caucasian but on average it is around 7% because a subset of them have much lower levels . But I haven't seen anybody with 5% SW asian so it is definitely on higher side .

Thomas48
04-21-2018, 07:33 PM
Syrian christians do have higher Caucasian but on average it is around 7% because a subset of them have much lower levels . But I haven't seen anybody with 5% SW asian so it is definitely on higher side .

That's very interesting thank you. I will soon take the Family Finder (Autosomal Test) at FTDNA and share my results.

TŠltos
04-25-2018, 03:56 PM
I'm sorry I'm still quite new to this, what do you mean by clade? I took the Y37 test and my results put me in Haplogroup Q and specifically QM242.

Welcome to Anthrogenica Thomas48! If you have not joined the Q-M242 Y DNA Project at FTDNA please do. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-q/about/background

The Y37 test does not test SNPs (it tests STRs), but can place you in a basic haplogroup. You will fall in a subclade of Q downstream of Q-M242 when you test more SNPs.

BMG
05-01-2018, 05:02 PM
Another sample from from kerala in Yfull is L283+
He is J-Z39653 which is downstream of Z628 +

Also kit No 288991 is also confirmed Z628+

The Yfull sample is a Cochin Jew . It is different from the Kerala Christian samples as they are Z1296- while the Cochin Jew sample is downstream of Z1296

Thomas48
05-05-2018, 02:51 AM
My Knanaya friend recently tested at Family Tree DNA. Like every other Knanaya, his MtDNA also came up specifically as M33a2.

Rustyshakelford
05-05-2018, 10:22 PM
Does anybody have a possible theory as to why all the Knanaya samples seem to have South Asian uniparental markers while their autosomal profiles indicate elevated levels of West Asian ancestry relative to surrounding populations of south India? What would be a possible explanation for this pattern? I canít seem to wrap my head around it. You would imagine that at least some of the YDNA results would be unambiguously foreign. If both the parental lineages indicate Indian origins then where did the West Asian dilution come from?

bmoney
05-06-2018, 01:38 AM
Does anybody have a possible theory as to why all the Knanaya samples seem to have South Asian uniparental markers while their autosomal profiles indicate elevated levels of West Asian ancestry relative to surrounding populations of south India? What would be a possible explanation for this pattern? I can’t seem to wrap my head around it. You would imagine that at least some of the YDNA results would be unambiguously foreign. If both the parental lineages indicate Indian origins then where did the West Asian dilution come from?

The best explanation is that the migrants were absorbed into the existing Syrian Christian community, though forming an endogamous unit within it.

And I expect a significant proportion of the y-lines to be of Middle-Eastern origin, we just haven't tested enough yet

BMG
05-06-2018, 02:42 AM
Does anybody have a possible theory as to why all the Knanaya samples seem to have South Asian uniparental markers while their autosomal profiles indicate elevated levels of West Asian ancestry relative to surrounding populations of south India? What would be a possible explanation for this pattern? I can’t seem to wrap my head around it. You would imagine that at least some of the YDNA results would be unambiguously foreign. If both the parental lineages indicate Indian origins then where did the West Asian dilution come from?

Let me show one possible scenario .Let's assume the Knai thoma came with few male merchants with no family who settled in Kerala . They later married into local people . I feel that they followed matriarchy in the early days and later resorted to endogamy due to the uniparental markers found in them and matriarchy was common in Kerala in olden days and the possibility of adopting the local custom of inheritance is there . If that is the case only the daughters would inherit the family and male children will marry out to other families . That would result in losing out the founders Ydna in a few generations but still retaining the autosomal part .

BMG
05-06-2018, 02:58 AM
The best explanation is that the migrants were absorbed into the existing Syrian Christian community, though forming an endogamous unit within it.

And I expect a significant proportion of the y-lines to be of Middle-Eastern origin, we just haven't tested enough yet
There are quite a few lines which could be of middle eastern origin like E-M34 , J-L283 ,R-Z2103 ,Q-L245 , J-L243 etc . I know of a christian family from kollam who were told that their direct paternal ancestor was a Persian who was a ship owner or something who settled here . But their Ydna turned out to be O1 which means their direct ancestor is Chinese or Taiwanese so probably their ship story may be actually true minus the Persian part.

bmoney
05-06-2018, 04:04 AM
There are quite a few lines which could be of middle eastern origin like E-M34 , J-L283 ,R-Z2103 ,Q-L245 , J-L243 etc . I know of a christian family from kollam who were told that their direct paternal ancestor was a Persian who was a ship owner or something who settled here . But their Ydna turned out to be O1 which means their direct ancestor is Chinese or Taiwanese so probably their ship story may be actually true minus the Persian part.

Interesting, yes Muziris etc being a busy port would have left some level of genetic impact over there.

Separately, did Zheng He land in Kerala?

Rustyshakelford
05-06-2018, 06:52 AM
Let me show one possible scenario .Let's assume the Knai thoma came with few male merchants with no family who settled in Kerala . They later married into local people . I feel that they followed matriarchy in the early days and later resorted to endogamy due to the uniparental markers found in them and matriarchy was common in Kerala in olden days and the possibility of adopting the local custom of inheritance is there . If that is the case only the daughters would inherit the family and male children will marry out to other families . That would result in losing out the founders Ydna in a few generations but still retaining the autosomal part .

But wouldnít this only work if the females continue to take husbands from amongst the local men? What prevents them from procreating with their cousins who possess the West Asian YDNA? We know that consanguineous marriages were common throughout the ancient world.
The matriarchy theory is interesting and offers a possible explanation for the uniformity seen thus far in the mtDNA results, but would matriarchy even be a viable option for a mercantile community? Isnít the Nair style matriarchal system (marumakathayam) moreso built for the needs of an agriculture based aristocracy? From my own family tradition I can attest that most Knanaya were merchants that often times lived within the markets themselves. It was only after places like kodungaloor and kaduthuruthy lost their commercial prominence that they began moving to surrounding villages and taking up farming.

BMG
05-06-2018, 07:09 AM
But wouldn’t this only work if the females continue to take husbands from amongst the local men? What prevents them from procreating with their cousins who possess the West Asian YDNA? We know that consanguineous marriages were common throughout the ancient world.
The matriarchy theory is interesting and offers a possible explanation for the uniformity seen thus far in the mtDNA results, but would matriarchy even be a viable option for a mercantile community? Isn’t the Nair style matriarchal system (marumakathayam) moreso built for the needs of an agriculture based aristocracy? From my own family tradition I can attest that most Knanaya were merchants that often times lived within the markets themselves. It was only after places like kodungaloor and kaduthuruthy lost their commercial prominence that they began moving to surrounding villages and taking up farming.

The identity as a separate community would have taken place later after quite a few generations when there is sufficient numbers to sustain the community .By that time only daughters descendants will be keeping the identity if they followed matriarchy .
I don't think there is any relation between matriarchy and agriculture . You may know Malabar muslims especially the elites like keyi family traditionally follow matriarchy and they are more of a mercantile community .

Thomas48
05-06-2018, 07:28 PM
Another significant factor to be mentioned is that Knanaya culture is extremely similar to that of the Cochin Jews of Kerala. Many Knanaya folk songs share many stanzas with Cochin Jew folk songs, with some even being the exact same song used to accompany the same ceremony or ritual. The two communities wedding traditions are also strikingly similar. Folk traditions also follow this same pattern. One folk tradition that should be mentioned is that both the Knanaya and Cochin Jews have traditions of carry dirt/ash to be used in distinct ceremonies in remembrance of the burning of Cranganore. This tradition earned the Knanaya the ridicule of the larger St. Thomas Christian Community, they started to call the Knanaya ďCharam KettikalĒ or knot makers of ash.

Itís also interesting to note that the Cochin Jews have songs that literally sing of the Southist Judeo-Christians aka the Knanaya and of their leader Thomas of Cana. Many of these songs mention Thomas of Cana and Joseph Rabban (the leader of the Cochin Jews) as Kings and or Princes. Many Knanaya songs also mention Joseph Rabban! All of this leads me to wonder what is the historical connection between these two peoples? It is interesting to note that almost all Knanaya folk songs about the Bible are of the Old Testament stories and not New Testament. The following is an example of such, known as ďPoorva Yosepintae VattakallyĒ or The Round Dance of Old Joseph. The song is ancient and sings of Joseph of the Old Testament and his children: https://youtu.be/wfCiPbL0-xs

The Cochin Jews also give special significance to this Joseph and share songs and traditions about him. Furthermore the copper plate grant given to Joseph Rabban and to Thomas of Cana are very identical. They both mention similar 72 privelages and share similar wording. The late Dr. P.M Jussay the revered Cochin Jew scholar whom I am quoting all of this information from states that all of these correlations are because both the Cochin Jews and Knanaya are originally from the Middle East, specially ancient Syria. He states the reason he did this cross-cultural study in the first place is because the Knanaya claim a Judeo-Christian origin.

BMG
05-09-2018, 06:11 PM
Another significant factor to be mentioned is that Knanaya culture is extremely similar to that of the Cochin Jews of Kerala. Many Knanaya folk songs share many stanzas with Cochin Jew folk songs, with some even being the exact same song used to accompany the same ceremony or ritual. The two communities wedding traditions are also strikingly similar. Folk traditions also follow this same pattern. One folk tradition that should be mentioned is that both the Knanaya and Cochin Jews have traditions of carry dirt/ash to be used in distinct ceremonies in remembrance of the burning of Cranganore. This tradition earned the Knanaya the ridicule of the larger St. Thomas Christian Community, they started to call the Knanaya “Charam Kettikal” or knot makers of ash.

It’s also interesting to note that the Cochin Jews have songs that literally sing of the Southist Judeo-Christians aka the Knanaya and of their leader Thomas of Cana. Many of these songs mention Thomas of Cana and Joseph Rabban (the leader of the Cochin Jews) as Kings and or Princes. Many Knanaya songs also mention Joseph Rabban! All of this leads me to wonder what is the historical connection between these two peoples? It is interesting to note that almost all Knanaya folk songs about the Bible are of the Old Testament stories and not New Testament. The following is an example of such, known as “Poorva Yosepintae Vattakally” or The Round Dance of Old Joseph. The song is ancient and sings of Joseph of the Old Testament and his children: https://youtu.be/wfCiPbL0-xs

The Cochin Jews also give special significance to this Joseph and share songs and traditions about him. Furthermore the copper plate grant given to Joseph Rabban and to Thomas of Cana are very identical. They both mention similar 72 privelages and share similar wording. The late Dr. P.M Jussay the revered Cochin Jew scholar whom I am quoting all of this information from states that all of these correlations are because both the Cochin Jews and Knanaya are originally from the Middle East, specially ancient Syria. He states the reason he did this cross-cultural study in the first place is because the Knanaya claim a Judeo-Christian origin.
There doesn't seem to be much of a link between knanaya and Cochin Jews . Knanayas may have adopted some of the custom from Cochin Jews to show their alleged jewish link . The present Cochin Jews songs at most date back to 17th and 18th century only .

Rustyshakelford
05-09-2018, 07:51 PM
I donít think it was an intentional appropriation to prove Jewish links. Fact is the Jewish link theory is relatively recent while the folk history/songs etc predate it. More so likely that since both lived in proximity to each other in kodungalore (thekkumbhagom for Knanaya and kaduvumbhagom for jews) they ended up sharing a lot of their folk culture and history. I doubt that both communities came from the same parentage as others have claimed just because neither community knows a whole lot about the other so probably donít share any kinship although intermarriage may have been possible long ago. Probably more appropriate to say they used to be neighbors in the distant past and ended up sharing a lot of the same culture rooted in the traditions of the Bible.

Thomas48
05-09-2018, 08:07 PM
There doesn't seem to be much of a link between knanaya and Cochin Jews . Knanayas may have adopted some of the custom from Cochin Jews to show their alleged jewish link . The present Cochin Jews songs at most date back to 17th and 18th century only .

I do not think this is the case, for example many of the songs tho they share stanzas are not completely the same (however some share more stanzas than others)

This is one example of such:

Knanaya Bath Song:

"Ponnum methiyadimel melle melle avan natannu
(With golden shoes he slowly walked)
Velli methiyadimel melle melle aval natannu"
(With silver shoes she slowly walked)

Cochin Jewish procession song:

"Ponnum methiyadimel melle natannan, Chiriyanandan,
(With golden shoes Chiriyanandan (Joseph Rabban) slowly walked)
Velli methiyadimel melle natannan, Chiriyanandan"
(With silver shoes Chiriyanandan (Joseph Rabban) slowly walked)

This means that perhaps at one time the two communities shared the same song but they became different over time, P.M Jussay is of the same opinion. Also your assessment is quick to assume that the Knanaya tried to appropriate culture, which I really don't believe is the case especially for the reason that many of these customs tho similar are not exactly the same. Also these songs and customs date way before any Knanaya Jewish link was found, the first person to say so was a politician by the name of Chazikadan in the 1940's, Knanaya folk songs however were written down for the first time in 1910 by P.U Luke way before the idea of any Jewish Connection was introduced. Before this time the Knanaya simply believed the historical legend of coming from the Middle East as Syrian Christians under Thomas of Cana. After Chazikadans work and the finding of the Jewish Connection many Knanaya started to assume that they were Judeo-Christians or essentially Early Jewish Converts to Syrian Christianity that came under Thomas of Cana. That is why today you see many websites and Knanaya associations state they are Judeo-Christians. It is also important to note that the few scholars that have studied the folk songs of the Knanaya state they atleast originate sometime around or before the 1500's and evolved over time. Since the connection with the Cochin Jews and any form of Jewish Link was only noted during the 1940's and after, it is impossible the Knanaya could have appropriated said folk songs and customs.

I think that perhaps it is even likely that some Cochin Jews and perhaps even Jews from the Middle East joined the Knanaya upon converting to Christianity. Some of these correlations are so striking, in example this historical Knanaya Brides wedding crown shares the same shape and similar adornment to a Yemenite Jew Brides wedding crown.


Yemenite Jew Crown:
23066

Knanaya Wedding Crown:
23067

BMG
05-10-2018, 04:50 PM
I don’t think it was an intentional appropriation to prove Jewish links. Fact is the Jewish link theory is relatively recent while the folk history/songs etc predate it. More so likely that since both lived in proximity to each other in kodungalore (thekkumbhagom for Knanaya and kaduvumbhagom for jews) they ended up sharing a lot of their folk culture and history. I doubt that both communities came from the same parentage as others have claimed just because neither community knows a whole lot about the other so probably don’t share any kinship although intermarriage may have been possible long ago. Probably more appropriate to say they used to be neighbors in the distant past and ended up sharing a lot of the same culture rooted in the traditions of the Bible.
There were two Cochin Jew synagogues in ernakulam . One was known as kadavumbhagam synagogue and the other thekkumbhagam synagogue . Similarly there seem to be two synagogues with same name existed in mattanchery too .not quite sure about it . I have asked them what does the name mean the reply was like it meant two divisions of Cochin Jews based on location of their earlier settlement . The Jews from Chendamangalam and Mala don't have such distinctions but restricted to Kochi and mattanchery .

I didn't know knanaya have origin from kodungalloor . If that is the case why did they migrate south while the Jews didn't. Also do you know the supposed time they left kodungalloor .
I was skeptical reg the songs since they are not that old and the oldest ones are from 17th century only . But anyway I will try to get more info on the specific songs mentioned by Thomas .

Thomas48
05-10-2018, 07:11 PM
There were two Cochin Jew synagogues in ernakulam . One was known as kadavumbhagam synagogue and the other thekkumbhagam synagogue . Similarly there seem to be two synagogues with same name existed in mattanchery too .not quite sure about it . I have asked them what does the name mean the reply was like it meant two divisions of Cochin Jews based on location of their earlier settlement . The Jews from Chendamangalam and Mala don't have such distinctions but restricted to Kochi and mattanchery .

I didn't know knanaya have origin from kodungalloor . If that is the case why did they migrate south while the Jews didn't. Also do you know the supposed time they left kodungalloor .
I was skeptical reg the songs since they are not that old and the oldest ones are from 17th century only . But anyway I will try to get more info on the specific songs mentioned by Thomas .

The Knanaya left Kodungalloor because of the battle between the Raja of Cochin and the Zamorin which I believe took place in 1524. The battle was drastic and many homes and churches were destroyed in fire, after this the Knanaya migrated and founded their own settlements in Udayamperoor, Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam, Chunkam, Kalliserry. Knanayas actually maintain a song about this event:

"Kollavachu Nayarkoodi Pattanathil Pukare Kollivachu palliyazhichannu chuttu pattanam ...timarichannu moovar kottavur ...la mannavar" [41] (Jussay, P. M. (2005). The Jews of Kerala. Calicut: Publication division, University of Calicut.)

"Nair soldiers entering the city plundered it they set fire to the church and burned down the city while three good kings bravely fought and fell" [41] (Jussay, P. M. (2005). The Jews of Kerala. Calicut: Publication division, University of Calicut.)

The Cochin Jews also maintain a legend about this event in which they state "their glorious synagogue at Cranganore was burnt down by the soldiers of the Zamorin who mounted an attack on the city under the cover of night". Interestingly one of the Cochin Jew songs about the events also has this following line:

"Munnanamondu, munthalamondu Moovaru rasakkal aararaulpettu" [42] (Jussay, P. M. (2005). The Jews of Kerala. Calicut: Publication division, University of Calicut.)

"Three elephants in front and beating with cymbals Three kings bestowed with grace" [42] (Jussay, P. M. (2005). The Jews of Kerala. Calicut: Publication division, University of Calicut.)

P.M Jussay states the three kings are said to be Thomas of Cana, Joseph Rabban, and Perumal Cheruman.

Also the songs I mention and the cross-cultural study of said customs and songs can only be found in P.M Jussays work. I actually have photo copies of the said work if you'd like to review them.

Targum
05-10-2018, 10:08 PM
Another significant factor to be mentioned is that Knanaya culture is extremely similar to that of the Cochin Jews of Kerala. Many Knanaya folk songs share many stanzas with Cochin Jew folk songs, with some even being the exact same song used to accompany the same ceremony or ritual. The two communities wedding traditions are also strikingly similar. Folk traditions also follow this same pattern. One folk tradition that should be mentioned is that both the Knanaya and Cochin Jews have traditions of carry dirt/ash to be used in distinct ceremonies in remembrance of the burning of Cranganore. This tradition earned the Knanaya the ridicule of the larger St. Thomas Christian Community, they started to call the Knanaya “Charam Kettikal” or knot makers of ash.

It’s also interesting to note that the Cochin Jews have songs that literally sing of the Southist Judeo-Christians aka the Knanaya and of their leader Thomas of Cana. Many of these songs mention Thomas of Cana and Joseph Rabban (the leader of the Cochin Jews) as Kings and or Princes. Many Knanaya songs also mention Joseph Rabban! All of this leads me to wonder what is the historical connection between these two peoples? It is interesting to note that almost all Knanaya folk songs about the Bible are of the Old Testament stories and not New Testament. The following is an example of such, known as “Poorva Yosepintae Vattakally” or The Round Dance of Old Joseph. The song is ancient and sings of Joseph of the Old Testament and his children: https://youtu.be/wfCiPbL0-xs

The Cochin Jews also give special significance to this Joseph and share songs and traditions about him. Furthermore the copper plate grant given to Joseph Rabban and to Thomas of Cana are very identical. They both mention similar 72 privelages and share similar wording. The late Dr. P.M Jussay the revered Cochin Jew scholar whom I am quoting all of this information from states that all of these correlations are because both the Cochin Jews and Knanaya are originally from the Middle East, specially ancient Syria. He states the reason he did this cross-cultural study in the first place is because the Knanaya claim a Judeo-Christian origin.

While Knanaya and Cochini Jews (now Israelis of Cochini background) share geographically similar origins, they are not the same people. having experienced Cochini synagogue routine, I am extremely skeptical of the claim of "shared liturgy". No mainstream Jewish Kehillah has any songs about Christian Saints. It is remarkably similar (what is known in Hebrew as מטבע התפילה matbe'a hatefilah The "mold" or "minted coin" of prayer) across all Western, Mizrahi (Cochin is Mizrahi) and Yemenite rites, and no Christian references whatsoever. My working assumption is that any similarities are due to them both being a group of Indianized Levantines with mixed ancestry. One difference is that unlike the Knanaya's almost complete forgetting of Aramaic, the Cochinis retained: 1) Hebrew; 2) Jewish Aramaic; and 3) were part of intercommunicating World Jewry in Hebrew when posing legal queries to Jewish Courts. Yosef Rabban, however was a prominent Cochini Jew who dealt (positively) with Indian native authorities, and discovered and "schooled" the Benei Israel of the Konkan coast, who were the second group of Indianized Jews. Unlike the Cochinis, the Benei Israel had reduced Hebrew knowledge (reduced, but partial Hebrew nevertheless), and rabban sent Cochini teachers to upgrade the Benei Israel to normative Jewish standards. It should also be pointed out, that the Cochini Jews absorbed newcomers from strong Jewish communities like Yemen, Sefaradi diaspora, and even German Jews(Cochini surname Rotenberg!) over the centuries.
The linked study was the definitive answer about their Jewish/Indian mixed heritage:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166

Targum
05-10-2018, 10:11 PM
Another significant factor to be mentioned is that Knanaya culture is extremely similar to that of the Cochin Jews of Kerala. Many Knanaya folk songs share many stanzas with Cochin Jew folk songs, with some even being the exact same song used to accompany the same ceremony or ritual. The two communities wedding traditions are also strikingly similar. Folk traditions also follow this same pattern. One folk tradition that should be mentioned is that both the Knanaya and Cochin Jews have traditions of carry dirt/ash to be used in distinct ceremonies in remembrance of the burning of Cranganore. This tradition earned the Knanaya the ridicule of the larger St. Thomas Christian Community, they started to call the Knanaya ďCharam KettikalĒ or knot makers of ash.

Itís also interesting to note that the Cochin Jews have songs that literally sing of the Southist Judeo-Christians aka the Knanaya and of their leader Thomas of Cana. Many of these songs mention Thomas of Cana and Joseph Rabban (the leader of the Cochin Jews) as Kings and or Princes. Many Knanaya songs also mention Joseph Rabban! All of this leads me to wonder what is the historical connection between these two peoples? It is interesting to note that almost all Knanaya folk songs about the Bible are of the Old Testament stories and not New Testament. The following is an example of such, known as ďPoorva Yosepintae VattakallyĒ or The Round Dance of Old Joseph. The song is ancient and sings of Joseph of the Old Testament and his children: https://youtu.be/wfCiPbL0-xs

The Cochin Jews also give special significance to this Joseph and share songs and traditions about him. Furthermore the copper plate grant given to Joseph Rabban and to Thomas of Cana are very identical. They both mention similar 72 privelages and share similar wording. The late Dr. P.M Jussay the revered Cochin Jew scholar whom I am quoting all of this information from states that all of these correlations are because both the Cochin Jews and Knanaya are originally from the Middle East, specially ancient Syria. He states the reason he did this cross-cultural study in the first place is because the Knanaya claim a Judeo-Christian origin.

While Knanaya and Cochini Jews (now Israelis of Cochini background) share geographically similar origins, they are not the same people. having experienced Cochini synagogue routine, I am extremely skeptical of the claim of "shared liturgy". No mainstream Jewish Kehillah has any songs about Christian Saints. It is remarkably similar (what is known in Hebrew as מטבע התפילה matbe'a hatefilah The "mold" or "minted coin" of prayer) across all Western, Mizrahi (Cochin is Mizrahi) and Yemenite rites, and no Christian references whatsoever. My working assumption is that any similarities are due to them both being a group of Indianized Levantines with mixed ancestry. One difference is that unlike the Knanaya's almost complete forgetting of Aramaic, the Cochinis retained: 1) Hebrew; 2) Jewish Aramaic; and 3) were part of intercommunicating World Jewry in hebrew when posing legal queries to Jewish Courts. Yosef Rabban, however was a prominent Cochini Jew who dealt (positively) with Indian native authorities, and discovered and "schooled" the Benei Israel of the Konkan coast, who were the second group of Indianized Jews. Unlike the Cochinis, the Benei Israel had reduced Hebrew knowledge (reduced, but partial Hebrew nevertheless), and Rabban sent Cochini teachers to upgrade the Benei Israel to normative Jewish standards. It should also be pointed out, that the Cochini Jews absorbed newcomers from strong Jewish communities like Yemen, Sefaradi diaspora, and even German Jews(Cochini surname Rotenberg!) over the centuries.
The linked study was the definitive answer about their Jewish/Indian mixed heritage:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166

Thomas48
05-11-2018, 12:20 AM
While Knanaya and Cochini Jews (now Israelis of Cochini background) share geographically similar origins, they are not the same people. having experienced Cochini synagogue routine, I am extremely skeptical of the claim of "shared liturgy". No mainstream Jewish Kehillah has any songs about Christian Saints. It is remarkably similar (what is known in Hebrew as מטבע התפילה matbe'a hatefilah The "mold" or "minted coin" of prayer) across all Western, Mizrahi (Cochin is Mizrahi) and Yemenite rites, and no Christian references whatsoever. My working assumption is that any similarities are due to them both being a group of Indianized Levantines with mixed ancestry. One difference is that unlike the Knanaya's almost complete forgetting of Aramaic, the Cochinis retained: 1) Hebrew; 2) Jewish Aramaic; and 3) were part of intercommunicating World Jewry in hebrew when posing legal queries to Jewish Courts. Yosef Rabban, however was a prominent Cochini Jew who dealt (positively) with Indian native authorities, and discovered and "schooled" the Benei Israel of the Konkan coast, who were the second group of Indianized Jews. Unlike the Cochinis, the Benei Israel had reduced Hebrew knowledge (reduced, but partial Hebrew nevertheless), and Rabban sent Cochini teachers to upgrade the Benei Israel to normative Jewish standards. It should also be pointed out, that the Cochini Jews absorbed newcomers from strong Jewish communities like Yemen, Sefaradi diaspora, and even German Jews(Cochini surname Rotenberg!) over the centuries.
The linked study was the definitive answer about their Jewish/Indian mixed heritage:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166

Of course they did not share the same liturgical practices, with Cochini Jews being Jews and Knanaya being Syro-Judaic Christians. What should be noted about the songs and folk traditions that have been compared in both communities is that they are not "Christian" in a sense. The compared songs sing about figures from the Old Testament (Essentially the Torah) and of figures in Kerala folk history such as Thomas of Cana and Joseph Rabban. What makes this even more interesting is that the majority of Knanaya songs are about figures of the Old Testament and not figures of the New, meaning that they seemed to give more importance to Judaic figures than Christian. The more "Christian" songs seem to only take place later. The other songs that are in correlation are songs sung during weddings, for example the following two songs are extremely similar. In the first song "Vazhvenna Vazhu", both communities sing during weddings as a song of benediction of blessing given by the Maternal Mother in the Knanaya sense (I am not sure who gives the blessing for the Cochini Jews). In the second song "Ponnantheedum", both communities sing during the wedding procession and the songs sings about Joseph Rabban.

Knanaya blessing song:

"Vazhvenna Vazhu ninakke thannen
(Let thine be the blessed life)
Neeyum nin bharthavum makkalum koote
Kalam peruthayi vanittirikennam
(With thy husband and children let thee live for long)
Vazhvanam bhoomi bhalamake thannen
Pangittu nin makkal kolluka yenneki"
(Earth and all its fruits were granted to thee and to thy children to share)[38]

Cochin Jewish blessing song:

"Vazhuvanna Vazhvu ninakkayirika
(Life blessed I have bestowed to thee)
Makkalum shalom peruthayirkka
Vazhuka thangeya perana bhoomil
(Large be the number of thy children and peace great)
Pangittu nin makkal kolluka yenneki"
(To thee and thy children to share)[38]


Knanaya Wedding Procession
Knanaya song: "He Comes In Gold Decorated Palanquin"

"Ponnantheedum thandukaleri
Mangala velam kanman''
(He comes in gold decorated palanquin to witness the wedding festivities)
Valarkoti munnil muthanithone
Vattakam Vessumeethe''
(The noble standard in front and the diamond studded alavattom swaying)
Pinnani munnilakambai nayan
Nin Viliyattum pattum"
(Unclear, however similar to Cochin Jew lyric)[39]

Cochin Jewish song: "He Comes In Gold Decorated Palanquin"

"Ponnantheedum thandukaleri
Mangala velam kanman''
(He comes in gold decorated palanquin to witness the wedding festivities)
Ponnorumala marvilum ponnu
Poosari manthal meethe''
Mannavan ekan poyithuyilatum
Pattani poondu nalla''
(With gold chain in the chest and gold glittered canopy above a king clad in golden fluttering silks)
Valarkoti munnil muthanithone
Vattakam Vessumeethe''
(The noble standard in front and the diamond studded alavattom swaying)
Munnani pinnilakambadi nayarum
Velayattum pattum''
(Retinue of Nair soldiers in front and rear with dance and song)[39]

I agree with your assessment of the correlation between both groups, however I must disagree with the Knanaya completely forgetting Aramaic (Syriac). Tho the Knanaya do not speak Syriac in laymen terms, the Knanaya Archdiocese has always been on the forefront for maintaining Syriac liturgically, even more so than some of its sister diocese' of the Syro Malabar Church.

Rustyshakelford
05-11-2018, 04:09 AM
There were two Cochin Jew synagogues in ernakulam . One was known as kadavumbhagam synagogue and the other thekkumbhagam synagogue . Similarly there seem to be two synagogues with same name existed in mattanchery too .not quite sure about it . I have asked them what does the name mean the reply was like it meant two divisions of Cochin Jews based on location of their earlier settlement . The Jews from Chendamangalam and Mala don't have such distinctions but restricted to Kochi and mattanchery .

I didn't know knanaya have origin from kodungalloor . If that is the case why did they migrate south while the Jews didn't. Also do you know the supposed time they left kodungalloor .
I was skeptical reg the songs since they are not that old and the oldest ones are from 17th century only . But anyway I will try to get more info on the specific songs mentioned by Thomas .

As Thomas48 said, the mass exodus of the Knanaya and the Jews from kodungalor is somewhat recent. The Northist st Thomas Christians have always been scattered in many different parts of Kerala including as far south as Kollam while the Knanites were historically concentrated in kodungalor. Although they eventually abandoned the place entirely, references to it are ubiquitous in Knanaya folklore.
From here there seems to have been a continuous southward movement. Initially both the knanites and the Jews settled in and around Cochin. Udayamperoor was nearby and also a major Knanaya settlement. Their presence in other nearby places like Karingachira is attested by Archbishop Ros. So this means even after leaving kodungalor both communities were still in close proximity to each other.
The Jews for whatever reason remained stationary in and around Cochin after their initial exodus from kodungalor while the Knanites moved further south and deeper into the interior, eventually reaching as far east as the foothills of the western ghatts where they established a settlement at chunkom(thodupuzha) in the 1500s itself. By the 1700s they had reached as far south as Ranni, which was the most remote of Christian settlements in Kerala.
My hunch is that the Portuguese influence over kerala at the time benefited the knanaites who were their coreligionists while the Portuguese probably were not too fond of the Jews and hampered their ability to expand their fortunes to different parts of the country.

BMG
05-12-2018, 07:29 AM
From wikipedia page i came to know that the knanaya are also called thekkumbhaga . I assume that is why the relation to the thekkumbhagam settlement of jews is suspected . if that is right then the knanaya might be descendants of the cochin jews of thekkumbhagam settlement who went south and later adopted christianity . But then again the no of cochin jews was not more than 4000 in the 1950s but knanayas probably numbered more than 1 lakh at that time despite being a closed community .

The Origin of cochin jews is in itself an enigma .Genetically they are south indians but culturally jewish . The only jewish population they have kept close relations was yemenite jews . They started adopting the mainstream jewish culture after the arrival of the paradesi jews of sepharadic origin . Still they have kept many of the older traditions as well .Incidentally the bene israel better kept the genetic imprint though they have lost the memory of jewishness .

I have looked up the harappa results of cochin jews.
44% S.Indian
31% Baloch
10% Caucasian
5% SW Asian
3% Meditteranean
They seem almost similar to the knanaya results except for the meditteranean which could have been acquired from marital relations with paradesi jews .

bmoney
05-12-2018, 07:35 AM
From wikipedia page i came to know that the knanaya are also called thekkumbhaga . I assume that is why the relation to the thekkumbhagam settlement of jews is suspected . if that is right then the knanaya might be descendants of the cochin jews of thekkumbhagam settlement who went south and later adopted christianity . But then again the no of cochin jews was not more than 4000 in the 1950s but knanayas probably numbered more than 1 lakh at that time despite being a closed community .

The Origin of cochin jews is in itself an enigma .Genetically they are south indians but culturally jewish . The only jewish population they have kept close relations was yemenite jews . They started adopting the mainstream jewish culture after the arrival of the paradesi jews of sepharadic origin . Still they have kept many of the older traditions as well .Incidentally the bene israel better kept the genetic imprint though they have lost the memory of jewishness .

I have looked up the harappa results of cochin jews.
44% S.Indian
31% Baloch
10% Caucasian
5% SW Asian
3% Meditteranean
They seem almost similar to the knanaya results except for the meditteranean which could have been acquired from marital relations with paradesi jews .

Wow 0 NE euro but 3 Med, relatively high SW Asian and Caucasian. Very similar to the Knanaya results.

Syrian Christian results also resemble this pattern but with higher South Indian admix

BMG
05-12-2018, 08:26 AM
As Thomas48 said, the mass exodus of the Knanaya and the Jews from kodungalor is somewhat recent. The Northist st Thomas Christians have always been scattered in many different parts of Kerala including as far south as Kollam while the Knanites were historically concentrated in kodungalor. Although they eventually abandoned the place entirely, references to it are ubiquitous in Knanaya folklore.

I don't think the syrian christians use that term to refer to themselves . At least i am not aware of anybody using it to self-identify . Shouldn't the northist term actually refer to cochin jews ? Anyway the broader syrian christians themsleves are derived from many distinct settlements that have spread along the coast with varying degrees of inter-relations . The bigger settlements were closer to coastal towns and the inland ones tended to be smaller . We can trace these settlemnts by looking for the locations of older churches as they have always been centered around the churches . I agree with you that the european colonisers have positively influenced the christians which along with the policies of the church during the 17th and 18th centuries have helped them to spread further .



By the 1700s they had reached as far south as Ranni, which was the most remote of Christian settlements in Kerala.

My maternal grandfather is from Ranni . Their family is told to have migrated to ranni from kollam town around 200 years before .

BMG
05-12-2018, 08:43 AM
Wow 0 NE euro but 3 Med, relatively high SW Asian and Caucasian. Very similar to the Knanaya results.

Syrian Christian results also resemble this pattern but with higher South Indian admix

I was surprised since i have expected much higher middle eastern for them . I shouldn't have though since i have seen it earlier but i have completely forgot that there were cochin-jew references in harappa . Do you know anything about ydna of cochin jews . There was an old study but i can't find it now . There is a J2b2-L283 sample in Yfull but not sure whether he is a black jew or a paradesi .

Rustyshakelford
05-12-2018, 03:39 PM
I don't think the syrian christians use that term to refer to themselves . At least i am not aware of anybody using it to self-identify . Shouldn't the northist term actually refer to cochin jews ? Anyway the broader syrian christians themsleves are derived from many distinct settlements that have spread along the coast with varying degrees of inter-relations . The bigger settlements were closer to coastal towns and the inland ones tended to be smaller . We can trace these settlemnts by looking for the locations of older churches as they have always been centered around the churches . I agree with you that the european colonisers have positively influenced the christians which along with the policies of the church during the 17th and 18th centuries have helped them to spread further .


My maternal grandfather is from Ranni . Their family is told to have migrated to ranni from kollam town around 200 years before .

I apologize if you found offense with the term Northist. From my understanding Syrian Christians are broadly divided into Kodungalor Nasrani and Kollam Nasrani although this is not an antagonistic division. Even in the travancore revenue records those who claim their ancestors came from kodungalor would write Mahadevarpattanam before their house name while kollam people would write ďkurakeni kollamĒ. (Ex: mahadevarpattanom valiyaveetil Thoma or kurakeni kollar palathadathil Mathai).
Amongst the Kodungalor group their exists a further division into Northists (non-Knanaya) and Southists (Knanaya). Northist/Southist are terms used in Academic literature and I donít think they have any negative connotations, they merely denote the location of settlement in kodungalor ( some say north and south of Periyar river others say north and south of kings palace). Youíre right that most Non-Knanaya Syrian Christians donít identify with the term. This is probably because many live in areas where Knanaya are absent and without them the term does not make sense, as they provide the context.
If you donít mind me asking is your maternal family Marthomite? Also does your family have any stories about the Knanaya?

BMG
05-12-2018, 04:53 PM
I apologize if you found offense with the term Northist. From my understanding Syrian Christians are broadly divided into Kodungalor Nasrani and Kollam Nasrani although this is not an antagonistic division.
No offence taken . Actually i was not aware of terms like northists and southists . It's rather new to me . I have heard about thekkumbhagar but didn't know it solely referred to knanaya on the other hand i have never heard about vadakkumbhagar or anything similar .
When i am talking about the christian settlements it is in regards to early 16th century from the time of portugese since i haven't read much about the time before . If there is any good material available please suggest as i would like to know more about that period .
Still i don't think christian settlements would be limited to kodungalloor and kollam even in early periods though they may have had bigger ones since they were the major ports back then.



If you don’t mind me asking is your maternal family Marthomite? Also does your family have any stories about the Knanaya?
Yes they are . I have not heard any stories from my maternal family regarding knanaya may be because they have left the place long before . In fact i came to know about the existence of knanaya from dna project page in nsc network site . It was around the time i got intrested in dna testing and got myself and maternal uncle tested through Geno 2.0 kit . My maternal uncle's ydna happened to be L1c which was also common among knanaya but later he tested further and found to be different from knanaya L1c .

Thomas48
05-12-2018, 05:32 PM
No offence taken . Actually i was not aware of terms like northists and southists . It's rather new to me . I have heard about thekkumbhagar but didn't know it solely referred to knanaya on the other hand i have never heard about vadakkumbhagar or anything similar .
When i am talking about the christian settlements it is in regards to early 16th century from the time of portugese since i haven't read much about the time before . If there is any good material available please suggest as i would like to know more about that period .
Still i don't think christian settlements would be limited to kodungalloor and kollam even in early periods though they may have had bigger ones since they were the major ports back then.


Yes they are . I have not heard any stories from my maternal family regarding knanaya may be because they have left the place long before . In fact i came to know about the existence of knanaya from dna project page in nsc network site . It was around the time i got intrested in dna testing and got myself and maternal uncle tested through Geno 2.0 kit . My maternal uncle's ydna happened to be L1c which was also common among knanaya but later he tested further and found to be different from knanaya L1c .

Whatís interesting about the Northist/Southist divide found among the Kodungalloor Syrian Christians is that according to certain resources the Northist also claim descent from Thomas of Cana. When the Portuguese arrived they asked these Christians of their descent, the majority of the documents state that the Southist claim to be the only Christians to have descent from Thomas of Cana however it is important to note that a few documents from the Northist claimed the same thing. In their versions, both the Southist and Northist descend from Thomas of Cana, while in the Knanaya versions only the Southist descend from Thomas of Cana.

Whatís interesting about this is that, the Northist only claim this during the Portuguese Era. After this, all the historical documents seem to follow the Knanaya version, with even all the Northist writings stating they descend from St. Thomas and not Thomas of Cana. One of the Portuguese bishops Francis Roz however copies down the content of a copper plate grant which is said to be for Thomas of Cana and his people, this copper plate grant follows the Southist version of the legend. The NCS network has a whole article about the divide among Northist/Southist where they state that Thomas of Cana was a shared legend among the Kodungalloor Syrian Christians. It is a good article tho in my opinion the website is heavily biased against the Knanaya, they donít care to mention any folk traditions and songs the Southist have in relation to Thomas of Cana but only the few documents available from the Portuguese Era, which in my opinion are nothing but perspective pieces depending on whom the Portuguese asked Northist or Southist. It seems that historically and among the Syrian Christian Community the legend of a Thoma of Cana was inherently known to be of the Knanaya. Tho the claim of the Northist Christians is not without merit, however it seems that later they abandoned this? Iím really not sure what to make of it especially since the documents available during the Portuguese Era can be so obscure.

Rustyshakelford
05-12-2018, 06:27 PM
No offence taken . Actually i was not aware of terms like northists and southists . It's rather new to me . I have heard about thekkumbhagar but didn't know it solely referred to knanaya on the other hand i have never heard about vadakkumbhagar or anything similar .
When i am talking about the christian settlements it is in regards to early 16th century from the time of portugese since i haven't read much about the time before . If there is any good material available please suggest as i would like to know more about that period .
Still i don't think christian settlements would be limited to kodungalloor and kollam even in early periods though they may have had bigger ones since they were the major ports back then.


Yes they are . I have not heard any stories from my maternal family regarding knanaya may be because they have left the place long before . In fact i came to know about the existence of knanaya from dna project page in nsc network site . It was around the time i got intrested in dna testing and got myself and maternal uncle tested through Geno 2.0 kit . My maternal uncle's ydna happened to be L1c which was also common among knanaya but later he tested further and found to be different from knanaya L1c .

I agree that Christians expanded from the port cities of kodungalor and kollam centuries before the arrival of Portuguese but itís hard to say how widespread this was or how early they expanded. I still believe that these two places were the starting points of Christianity in Kerala and am very skeptical of certain claims of antiquity made by many churches. For example Christians at kurivillangad claim that the church there was built in the year 346. If their was a Christian presence in kurivilangad since the remote past why is it that even in the 1700s and 1800s they had to identify themselves in government revenue records and land deeds with the appellation ďmahadevarpattanamĒ which was the name for the Christian settlement at Kodungalor?
I agree though that the Northist Christians have scattered across kerala much earlier and more widely than the Southists(Knanaya) although I think sometimes they tend to exaggerate how ancient their churches/settlements are just because they feel a need to link their church with the apostolic origins from St. Thomas. Amongst the Knanaya all their oldest churches only date back to the 1500s and they donít claim them to be older than this. They say that all their oldest churches were in kodungalor and were destroyed in war. Many see this and think the Knanaya Churchís lack antiquity so this means they must have been Cochin jews who converted to Christianity in the colonial period.
I canít get behind this theory because If one big chunk of the Jewish community left and became Christian I think the Jews in Cochin would have maintained at least a vague memory of this event. Similarly the Knanaya themselves donít have much knowledge of the Jews and most donít even know that Jews even exist in Kerala.
The Jews may very well have had a distinction between kadavunbhagom Jews and thekkumbhagom but this doesnít necessarily mean that the thekkumbhagom Jews are the same as thekkumbhagom Christians ( Knanaya). Scholars like Swiderski have shown that many communities were divided along cardinal directions and that the Northist/southist distinction existed in many different communities including the Brahmins. The division of Northist Southist amongst Syrian Christians is unique because of the explicit prohibition against intermarriage between the two and the openly antagonistic attitude that they maintained towards each other which sometimes escalated into violence and mass strife.

Thomas48
05-12-2018, 06:56 PM
I agree that Christians expanded from the port cities of kodungalor and kollam centuries before the arrival of Portuguese but itís hard to say how widespread this was or how early they expanded. I still believe that these two places were the starting points of Christianity in Kerala and am very skeptical of certain claims of antiquity made by many churches. For example Christians at kurivillangad claim that the church there was built in the year 346. If their was a Christian presence in kurivilangad since the remote past why is it that even in the 1700s and 1800s they had to identify themselves in government revenue records and land deeds with the appellation ďmahadevarpattanamĒ which was the name for the Christian settlement at Kodungalor?
I agree though that the Northist Christians have scattered across kerala much earlier and more widely than the Southists(Knanaya) although I think sometimes they tend to exaggerate how ancient their churches/settlements are just because they feel a need to link their church with the apostolic origins from St. Thomas. Amongst the Knanaya all their oldest churches only date back to the 1500s and they donít claim them to be older than this. They say that all their oldest churches were in kodungalor and were destroyed in war. Many see this and think the Knanaya Churchís lack antiquity so this means they must have been Cochin jews who converted to Christianity in the colonial period.
I canít get behind this theory because If one big chunk of the Jewish community left and became Christian I think the Jews in Cochin would have maintained at least a vague memory of this event. Similarly the Knanaya themselves donít have much knowledge of the Jews and most donít even know that Jews even exist in Kerala.
The Jews may very well have had a distinction between kadavunbhagom Jews and thekkumbhagom but this doesnít necessarily mean that the thekkumbhagom Jews are the same as thekkumbhagom Christians ( Knanaya). Scholars like Swiderski have shown that many communities were divided along cardinal directions and that the Northist/southist distinction existed in many different communities including the Brahmins. The division of Northist Southist amongst Syrian Christians is unique because of the explicit prohibition against intermarriage between the two and the openly antagonistic attitude that they maintained towards each other which sometimes escalated into violence and mass strife.

Donít the Knanaya also have St. Maryís Church Kaduthurthy which is supposed to established atleast in the year 1000?

Rustyshakelford
05-12-2018, 07:31 PM
Supposedly in the year 1000 but Iíve also seen the year 500 thrown around for both kaduthuruthy and udayamperoor. Of the five church they had, chunkom, kottayam and kalliserry are all indisputably no older than the 1500s.
There may have been Christians including Knanaya in kaduthuruthy and udayamperoor before 1524(destruction of kodungalor) but the church at kaduthuruthy became solely Knanaya only in the 1500s. I know youíre very into folk songs so if you go on YouTube you can find the song that describes the establishment of this church. I donít know the lyrics but I remember they describe 4 sides and a square shaped structure. This makes sense given that the known historical texts from the 1500s that say the Chaldean bishop Mar Abraham is the one that helped build the church in kaduthuruthy and it describes how the original structure had a base made with 4 logs in a square shape which came to be known as ďchatturapallyĒ or square shaped church. This also connects the church to 1500s.
Iím not saying that the year 1000 A.D. is impossible but Iíd be wary of just accepting any number you hear. People like to throw around these ancient dates but nobody truly knows much about anything thatís existed in Kerala before the colonial period as record keeping was pretty much nonexistent. Itís easy to throw out numbers like 52 AD, 345 AD, 600 etc etc but it doesnít mean we have solid reason to believe these dates.

Thomas48
05-12-2018, 07:51 PM
Supposedly in the year 1000 but I’ve also seen the year 500 thrown around for both kaduthuruthy and udayamperoor. Of the five church they had, chunkom, kottayam and kalliserry are all indisputably no older than the 1500s.
There may have been Christians including Knanaya in kaduthuruthy and udayamperoor before 1524(destruction of kodungalor) but the church at kaduthuruthy became solely Knanaya only in the 1500s. I know you’re very into folk songs so if you go on YouTube you can find the song that describes the establishment of this church. I don’t know the lyrics but I remember they describe 4 sides and a square shaped structure. This makes sense given that the known historical texts from the 1500s that say the Chaldean bishop Mar Abraham is the one that helped build the church in kaduthuruthy and it describes how the original structure had a base made with 4 logs in a square shape which came to be known as “chatturapally” or square shaped church. This also connects the church to 1500s.
I’m not saying that the year 1000 A.D. is impossible but I’d be wary of just accepting any number you hear. People like to throw around these ancient dates but nobody truly knows much about anything that’s existed in Kerala before the colonial period as record keeping was pretty much nonexistent. It’s easy to throw out numbers like 52 AD, 345 AD, 600 etc etc but it doesn’t mean we have solid reason to believe these dates.

I agree, many of these dates thrown around do not have scientific backing, I don't think carbon dating has been done on any of these churches. I think out of the churches the Knanaya claim historically, I have heard that Kaduthurthy and Udayamperoor are disputed. These two churches were most likely shared by both the Northist and Southist but later Kaduthurthy went to the Southist and Udayamperoor to the Northist. Other historical Southist Churches of mention are Chunkom (1579), Punnathura (1625), Uzhavoor (1631) and the last of the churches considered historical being Piravom (1821).

If you are referring to this folk song about Kaduthurthy Church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YzxkyHGyxQ , the uploader gives a rough translation in which the lyrics seem to state the leader of the 'Vakkum Kottu" or leader of the Northist petition the king to build the Church after the community expressed interest. If this folk song has any historical significance, it would seem that Kaduthurthy was a joint venture between the Southist and Northist.

Rustyshakelford
05-13-2018, 01:11 AM
I think the song is referencing the Knanites approaching the King of Vadakkumkur which was a small principality in which Kaduthuruthy was the capital. I donít think itís talking about Northists or a Northist leader at all.

I donít know if this is the correct forum to post about our church history so Iíll refrain from posting any further on this subject. If you want to discuss further you can message me thanks.

Thomas48
05-13-2018, 03:22 AM
I think the song is referencing the Knanites approaching the King of Vadakkumkur which was a small principality in which Kaduthuruthy was the capital. I don’t think it’s talking about Northists or a Northist leader at all.

I don’t know if this is the correct forum to post about our church history so I’ll refrain from posting any further on this subject. If you want to discuss further you can message me thanks.

I see, thank you and will do.

BMG
05-13-2018, 08:38 AM
I agree that Christians expanded from the port cities of kodungalor and kollam centuries before the arrival of Portuguese but itís hard to say how widespread this was or how early they expanded. I still believe that these two places were the starting points of Christianity in Kerala and am very skeptical of certain claims of antiquity made by many churches. For example Christians at kurivillangad claim that the church there was built in the year 346. If their was a Christian presence in kurivilangad since the remote past why is it that even in the 1700s and 1800s they had to identify themselves in government revenue records and land deeds with the appellation ďmahadevarpattanamĒ which was the name for the Christian settlement at Kodungalor?

I certainly don't agree that christianity was restricted to kollam and kodungalloor . There might have had bigger settlements there towards the end of 1st millenium due to the establishment of trade guilds . But there were christian merchant populations in other towns too . And these merchants are just a part of the christian populations . There were many agiricultural settlements which were smaller but more numerous and scattered . Even the inland settlements of pala and kothamangalam are very old . The Kuruvilangad families are the ones who have the palayoor traditions . I don't know whether they used mahadevarpattanam along with their family names (can u give a referance for that ) but they consider their ancestors came from palayoor . Any date before 15th century AD should be taken cautiously as there is nothing concrete beyond that time just take as it happened sometime before that .

bmoney
05-13-2018, 11:36 AM
I was surprised since i have expected much higher middle eastern for them . I shouldn't have though since i have seen it earlier but i have completely forgot that there were cochin-jew references in harappa . Do you know anything about ydna of cochin jews . There was an old study but i can't find it now . There is a J2b2-L283 sample in Yfull but not sure whether he is a black jew or a paradesi .

Unfortunately not.

I would be interested to know if the West Asian ancestry is patrilineal vs matrilineal for both the Cochin Jews and the Knanaya.

I'd also be interested to know if the Knanaya Q subclade is of West Asian origin and unlike the Q in other Malayali pops

Rustyshakelford
05-14-2018, 01:30 PM
I certainly don't agree that christianity was restricted to kollam and kodungalloor . There might have had bigger settlements there towards the end of 1st millenium due to the establishment of trade guilds . But there were christian merchant populations in other towns too . And these merchants are just a part of the christian populations . There were many agiricultural settlements which were smaller but more numerous and scattered . Even the inland settlements of pala and kothamangalam are very old . The Kuruvilangad families are the ones who have the palayoor traditions . I don't know whether they used mahadevarpattanam along with their family names (can u give a referance for that ) but they consider their ancestors came from palayoor . Any date before 15th century AD should be taken cautiously as there is nothing concrete beyond that time just take as it happened sometime before that .

Iím not saying that Christianity was restricted to Kodungalor and kollam just that it was most likely to have originated there and then spread to different parts of Kerala at different times. All the abrahamic faiths arrived in Kerala via commerce and not through conquest. Christians, jews, and muslims were all originally localized in port cities along the coast. Muslims had Calicut and with the patronage of the Zamorin they were able to spread throughout northern malabar. They also had a presence in kodungalor along with Christians and Jews.
Iím not denying that places like Pala and Kothamangalam are very old, Iím just saying that the founders of these settlements were probably migrants from Kodungalor who moved inland at some point in history.
As for the Palayur tradition of the ďBrahminĒ families of kurivilangad from what Iíve read all Christians had to identify themselves with mahadevarpattanom or kurakeni kollam which are the places where Christians were granted charters from the Local rulers that outlined their privileges (72 priveleges). Iím not sure if anyone was exempt from this.
Basically what Iím trying to say is that Iím skeptical of the presence of Independent Christian communities ( ie not originating from kodungalor or kollam) scattered throughout Kerala. I personally donít subscribe to the notion that St. Thomas traveled the length and breadth of Kerala establishing scattered Christian communities in 7 different places some as far inland as Niranom and Nilakkal. I think all foreign religions in Kerala originated via commerce and spread from the coast and I donít think Christianity in Kerala is an exception to this pattern.

BMG
05-14-2018, 05:23 PM
Unfortunately not.

I would be interested to know if the West Asian ancestry is patrilineal vs matrilineal for both the Cochin Jews and the Knanaya.

I'd also be interested to know if the Knanaya Q subclade is of West Asian origin and unlike the Q in other Malayali pops

All the tested malayali Q belong to different subclades . Of the 3 Q1b's one is L275+ M378- , one is M378+ L245- and the third L245+ . The first is a Kerala Christian academic sample and other two Syrian christians . Of the two Q1a one is L940 and one is L53 ,both downstream of M346,both of the. Syrian Christians.The srilankan Tamil Q-M346 belong to yet another branch Z5902 which is sister clade to L940. All these M346 subclades are very old .

Thomas48
05-15-2018, 03:35 PM
I thought I'd share my Autosomal results from Family Tree DNA:

South Central Asian: 74%
Central Asia: 11%
Asian Minor: 10%
Ashkenazi Jew: 2%
West Middle East: <2%
East Middle East: <1%

bmoney
05-16-2018, 01:21 AM
I thought I'd share my Autosomal results from Family Tree DNA:

South Central Asian: 74%
Central Asia: 11%
Asian Minor: 10%
Ashkenazi Jew: 2%
West Middle East: <2%
East Middle East: <1%

Have you uploaded your FTDNA kit to Gedmatch?

Thomas48
05-16-2018, 03:42 AM
Have you uploaded your FTDNA kit to Gedmatch?

Yes I've just uploaded it today. I have been in communication with the moderator of the Syrian Christians Project at FTDNA, supposedly I am the first Knanaya tested to have Q as YDNA Haplogroup. I will share the results of my GedCom after it processes.

Thomas48
05-16-2018, 05:10 PM
Here are my GedMatch Results:

Population
S-Indian 44.57
Baloch 34.32
Caucasian 11.20
SW-Asian 3.72
NE-Euro 1.75
SE-Asian 1.64

BMG
05-16-2018, 05:25 PM
I’m not saying that Christianity was restricted to Kodungalor and kollam just that it was most likely to have originated there and then spread to different parts of Kerala at different times. All the abrahamic faiths arrived in Kerala via commerce and not through conquest. Christians, jews, and muslims were all originally localized in port cities along the coast. Muslims had Calicut and with the patronage of the Zamorin they were able to spread throughout northern malabar. They also had a presence in kodungalor along with Christians and Jews.

Not necessarily and there is no evidence to say for sure . Calicut and even mangalore also could have had presence of christians . so could have many other smaller coastal towns . Majority of the syrian christians are not foreign descendants but local converts who may or may not have connection with these towns . Most of the settlements had originated through conversions only which i believe start happening from 8th or 9th century onwards .




As for the Palayur tradition of the “Brahmin” families of kurivilangad from what I’ve read all Christians had to identify themselves with mahadevarpattanom or kurakeni kollam which are the places where Christians were granted charters from the Local rulers that outlined their privileges (72 priveleges). I’m not sure if anyone was exempt from this.

All christians didn't have to identify with mahadevarpattanam or kurakeni . If it was so if would have been reflected in traditions or folk stories but it doesn't .




Basically what I’m trying to say is that I’m skeptical of the presence of Independent Christian communities ( ie not originating from kodungalor or kollam) scattered throughout Kerala. I personally don’t subscribe to the notion that St. Thomas traveled the length and breadth of Kerala establishing scattered Christian communities in 7 different places some as far inland as Niranom and Nilakkal. I think all foreign religions in Kerala originated via commerce and spread from the coast and I don’t think Christianity in Kerala is an exception to this pattern.

By 15th century there were many established settlements and beyond that we hardly know anything . St Thomas visit to kerala is just a folklore and there is no compelling evidence for it except a poosible chance of landing there due to the presence of arab trade routes during that time . I think pre-islamic arabs introduced christianity in kerala just like islam was introduced later . I believe only during 8th and 9th century only christianity grew out from being a small minority .

bmoney
05-17-2018, 12:10 AM
Here are my GedMatch Results:

Population
S-Indian 44.57
Baloch 34.32
Caucasian 11.20
SW-Asian 3.72
NE-Euro 1.75
SE-Asian 1.64

Very close fit with the other Knanaya samples, definite West Asian mix (elevated Caucasian and SW Asian) from a predominantly local base (South Indian + Baloch).

Strict endogamy seems to be case from the few samples I've seen

Rustyshakelford
05-17-2018, 04:19 AM
Not necessarily and there is no evidence to say for sure . Calicut and even mangalore also could have had presence of christians . so could have many other smaller coastal towns . Majority of the syrian christians are not foreign descendants but local converts who may or may not have connection with these towns . Most of the settlements had originated through conversions only which i believe start happening from 8th or 9th century onwards . [QUOTE=BMG;395214]

Sure Calicut and mangolore very well may have had a Christian presence given that they too were port cities but their is a lack of clear cut evidence. The oldest reference to Christians in Kerala is by an Egyptian monk who visited in 522 AD. His account speaks of the Christian community in kollam. Additionally all pre Portuguese references to Christians mention only Cranganore and Kollam although during the Portuguese era many Portuguese writers speculated that their used to be Christians in northern kerala but they had been wiped out with the rise of Islam. It’s certainly a possibility but given the fact that their is no archaeological evidence for it and the heavily anti-Islam bias of the Portuguese I think this should be taken with a grain of salt.
Also just because most Christians are local converts does not refute my point. If locals convert to a foreign religion then they must be in contact with foreigners. Where else would you find foreigners besides in the port cities? This is why I’m skeptical of claims that their were ancient settlements from the remote past located in the interior in places like nilakal and niranom etc. Why would foreigners venture to heavily forested areas in the interior? And if they hadn’t how could the people there have known about Christianity?

[QUOTE=BMG;395214] All christians didn't have to identify with mahadevarpattanam or kurakeni . If it was so if would have been reflected in traditions or folk stories but it doesn't .[QUOTE=BMG;395214]

Folk traditions change. As Thomas48 had indicated in an earlier post, up until even the 1800s the Northists too claimed the heritage of Thomas of Cana. Today they have no such memory of this even though history books are filled with Portuguese accounts that mentioned Northists and Southists vying to claim legitimacy as the true heirs to Thomas of Cana. The mahadevarpattanom and kurakeni kollam tradition are mostly forgotten because it’s no longer geographically relevant as Christians have spread to every corner of Kerala. Your family in Ranni are kollam Nasranis and their Knanaya neighbors are kodungalor nasranis and I’m sure they have other Non-Knanaya neighbors who are also originally from up north. As both groups interspersed and mixed the distinction no longer mattered. The only reason the Northist vs. Southist(Knanaya) division still persists is because their is an ethnic component to it whereas the kodungalure/ kollam distinction is purely geographical and in no way antagonistic.



[QUOTE=BMG;395214] By 15th century there were many established settlements and beyond that we hardly know anything . St Thomas visit to kerala is just a folklore and there is no compelling evidence for it except a poosible chance of landing there due to the presence of arab trade routes during that time . I think pre-islamic arabs introduced christianity in kerala just like islam was introduced later . I believe only during 8th and 9th century only christianity grew out from being a small minority .

I never disputed this. Of course by the 15th century, Christians had numerous settlements scattered throughout kerala. Basically all I’m saying is that we shud be skeptical of claims of antiquity made by certain churches. I simply find it hard to believe that in the 1st century AD or 5th century AD etc that their were Christian settlements in far inland areas. Many of these places were probably unpopulated and heavily forested back then.

Rustyshakelford
05-17-2018, 04:48 AM
Yes I've just uploaded it today. I have been in communication with the moderator of the Syrian Christians Project at FTDNA, supposedly I am the first Knanaya tested to have Q as YDNA Haplogroup. I will share the results of my GedCom after it processes.

I had once read on NSC network that one of the knanaya L haplogroup samples had some relation to Lebanon. The Comment also said that this was confirmed by the moderator of the Syrian Christian Project on FTDNA. Do you know if there is any truth to this? since you are in contact with him would you mind asking? It would be much appreciated thank you.

Thomas48
05-17-2018, 05:55 AM
I had once read on NSC network that one of the knanaya L haplogroup samples had some relation to Lebanon. The Comment also said that this was confirmed by the moderator of the Syrian Christian Project on FTDNA. Do you know if there is any truth to this? since you are in contact with him would you mind asking? It would be much appreciated thank you.

I was recently made Co-Admin of the Syrian Christians DNA project on Family Tree DNA. I have access to all users YDNA, MtDNA, and Autosomal. BMG is very accurate when it comes to Middle Eastern percentages among the Knanaya and St. Thomas Christians. The Knanaya largely show 10-15% Autosomal affinity to the Middle East 10% from the Caucasus region and 5% Southwest. The Caucuses region can be defined as historical Syria which would include Lebanon, this could be what that poster was mentioning, however it was not one but many Knanaya that have this relation. As for the St. Thomas Christians many show 4-5% Caucuses and others even have near to 8-9% but their average is much lower because many show no affinity to the Middle East but instead almost wholey South Indian most likely because of exogamy and evangelization. One user actually shows a 19% autosomal match to the Middle East, the highest of any other Syrian Christian tested, tho I am not sure if she is Knanaya or St. Thomas Christian.

bmoney
05-17-2018, 07:35 AM
I had once read on NSC network that one of the knanaya L haplogroup samples had some relation to Lebanon. The Comment also said that this was confirmed by the moderator of the Syrian Christian Project on FTDNA. Do you know if there is any truth to this? since you are in contact with him would you mind asking? It would be much appreciated thank you.

Can you find out what L subclade it is?

Rustyshakelford
05-17-2018, 01:41 PM
Can you find out what L subclade it is?

I have no idea just something I read on the Internet. Now that Thomas is co-admin he could probably access this information if itís available. BMG once said that the subclads for the Knanaya L haplogroup are not known so Iím not sure??

bmoney
05-17-2018, 01:56 PM
I have no idea just something I read on the Internet. Now that Thomas is co-admin he could probably access this information if it’s available. BMG once said that the subclads for the Knanaya L haplogroup are not known so I’m not sure??

Yeah he said that it was L1a2, but the Gulf/Lebanon is mainly L1a1 subclade territory which is why I got curious: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M27/

BMG
05-17-2018, 02:03 PM
I have no idea just something I read on the Internet. Now that Thomas is co-admin he could probably access this information if it’s available. BMG once said that the subclads for the Knanaya L haplogroup are not known so I’m not sure??
There are both L-M27(L1a1) and L-M357(L1a2) among knanaya .I was telling that further subgroup of the L1a2 are not known .

BMG
05-17-2018, 02:09 PM
Yeah he said that it was L1a2, but the Gulf/Lebanon is mainly L1a1 subclade territory which is why I got curious: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
L1a1 and L1a2 are found among gulf Arabs. But in Lebanon L1b might be main L .

Thomas48
05-17-2018, 11:10 PM
Heres a breakdown for the St. Thomas Christians in general.

23241
23242
23243

L, J2, and R2 are the highest Y-DNA results so far.
M by a huge majority is the highest result for MtDNA.

Thomas48
05-17-2018, 11:43 PM
I have been going through everyone's autosomal results and the individual with the highest Middle Eastern origins is a Knanaya women.

Here are her Autosomal Results:
South Central Asia: 80%
Middle East (Asia Minor): 19%
West Afria: <1%

MtDNA: U1a1c1d

She has not tested for YDNA yet.

bmoney
05-18-2018, 12:59 AM
I have been going through everyone's autosomal results and the individual with the highest Middle Eastern origins is a Knanaya women.

Here are her Autosomal Results:
South Central Asia: 80%
Middle East (Asia Minor): 19%
West Afria: <1%

MtDNA: U1a1c1d

She has not tested for YDNA yet.

Get her Harappa results

bmoney
05-18-2018, 01:03 AM
Heres a breakdown for the St. Thomas Christians in general.

23241
23242
23243

L, J2, and R2 are the highest Y-DNA results so far.
M by a huge majority is the highest result for MtDNA.

Wow I haven't seen L reach that amount among any caste in Kerala, especially among my people the Malabar Nairs where it is negligible (<5%)

Interesting that my y-line is more common in St Thomas Christians than any other Malayali group

As BMG said, id be curious to know if there are any L1bs (definite West Asian) and what J subclades they belong to (could be West Asian subclades), but in terms of overall haplogroups their y-dna and mtdna (M) is pretty local South Asian

Rustyshakelford
05-18-2018, 02:30 AM
I have been going through everyone's autosomal results and the individual with the highest Middle Eastern origins is a Knanaya women.

Here are her Autosomal Results:
South Central Asia: 80%
Middle East (Asia Minor): 19%
West Afria: <1%

MtDNA: U1a1c1d

She has not tested for YDNA yet.

Wow so this would mean that M33a2 isnít the only mtDNA found among the Knanaya. Is U1a1c1d itself indicative of West Asia?

Thomas48
05-18-2018, 03:05 AM
Wow so this would mean that M33a2 isn’t the only mtDNA found among the Knanaya. Is U1a1c1d itself indicative of West Asia?

Yes we will most likely see more U among the Knanaya and U seems to be a direct line to West Asia.

Thomas48
05-18-2018, 07:06 PM
My cousin just did his autosomal test. His results follow every other Knanaya, with about 15% Middle Eastern.

GedMatch:

Population
S-Indian 45.21
Baloch 35.74
Caucasian 8.57
SW-Asian 4.52

Rustyshakelford
05-18-2018, 10:26 PM
My cousin just did his autosomal test. His results follow every other Knanaya, with about 15% Middle Eastern.

GedMatch:

Population
S-Indian 45.21
Baloch 35.74
Caucasian 8.57
SW-Asian 4.52

Can you post some autosomal results of non-Knanaya Syrian Christians? I know you mentioned how all Syrian christians have elevated Caucasian but some have almost none which bring down the average. Do you know if this follows any geographic pattern?

traject
05-19-2018, 04:06 AM
Here's another Y-DNA distribution for Syrian Christians if you are curious (likely almost all non-Knanaya Syrian Christians):

imgur-com/PKhUjxX (cannot post links)

bmoney
05-19-2018, 04:14 AM
Can you post some autosomal results of non-Knanaya Syrian Christians? I know you mentioned how all Syrian christians have elevated Caucasian but some have almost none which bring down the average. Do you know if this follows any geographic pattern?

here you go, largely similar to Kerala's other ethnic groups. I'm assuming Christian here is referring to Syrian Christian due to the Syrian Christian results I've seen which resemble this average.

The Christians have a Caucasian tilt as opposed to the Baloch tilt the Nairs have.

2-3% SW Asian seems to be the norm across the groups but I don't score any. The component scores might be affected by small sample sizes

Muslims seem to have more of a South Indian shift with higher AASI related components, South Indian, Papuan & SE Asian.

No doubt there is substructure in these groups as they are quite broad.

23261

traject
05-19-2018, 04:33 AM
here you go, largely similar to Kerala's other ethnic groups. I'm assuming Christian here is referring to Syrian Christian due to the Syrian Christian results I've seen which resemble this average.

The Christians have a Caucasian tilt as opposed to the Baloch tilt the Nairs have.

2-3% SW Asian seems to be the norm across the groups but I don't score any. The component scores might be affected by small sample sizes

Muslims seem to have more of a South Indian shift with higher AASI related components, South Indian, Papuan & SE Asian.

No doubt there is substructure in these groups as they are quite broad.

23261

Interesting, there is no Mediterranean component in Syrian Christians? My mom's non-Knanaya Christian family has around 2.5%.

bmoney
05-19-2018, 08:20 AM
Interesting, there is no Mediterranean component in Syrian Christians? My mom's non-Knanaya Christian family has around 2.5%.

Med in South Asians generally comes with the other steppe component NE Euro, but tends to be a much smaller component of steppe.

It's probably the ENF that came with Sintashta, so its likely in here but diluted to noise levels (<0.5%) since Syrian Christians tend to score low NE Euro unlike Southern Brahmins.

This further supports the fact that Brahmins did not convert into the Syrian Christian religion, or formed a small numerical component within the community if they did later on

bmoney
05-19-2018, 08:31 AM
That got me thinking about Kerala Brahmins, we have only 1 sample and he/she scores weirdly compared to other Southern Brahmins.

Mallus tend to score SW Asian weirdly as opposed to other southern states, whats going on there:

23266

Thomas48
05-19-2018, 08:46 AM
Non-Knanaya St.Thomas Christians FamilyTreeDNA Autosomal Results. On average it seems the St. Thomas Christians (Non-Knanaya) have about 5% Middle Eastern, of course this is a broad result from FtDNA and not GedMatch. Also this is not all the results, there about 10-15 that I will post later.

St. Thomas Christian #1:
South Asian - 91%
Middle Eastern - 5%
Southeast Europe - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #2:
South Asian - 85%
Middle East - 12%

St. Thomas Christian #3:
South Asian - 92%
Middle Eastern - 6%

St. Thomas Christian #4:
South Asian - 94%
European - 6%

St. Thomas Christian #5:
South Asian - 91%
Middle Eastern - 7%

St. Thomas Christian #6
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #7
South Asian - 95%
Jewish Diaspora - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #8
South Asia -99%
North Central America - 1%

St. Thomas Christian #9
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #10
South Asian - 93%
Middle East - 7%
West Middle East - 1%

St. Thomas Christian #11
South Asian - 98%
Northeast Asia - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #12
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #13
South Asian - 93%
Middle East - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #14
South Asian - 96%
Oceana - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #15
South Asia - 91%
Middle East - 5%
European - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #16
South Asian - 85%
Middle East - 12%
Southeast Asia - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #17
South Asian - 94%
Sephardic Jew - 3%
Oceania - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #18
South Asian - 95%
European 2%
Northeast Asia - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #19
South Asian - 92%
Middle East - 3%
Ashkenazi - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #20
South Asian - 98%
Southeast Asia - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #21
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #22
South Asian - 95%
European - 3%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #23
South Asian - 95%
European - 3%
West Middle East - 2%

bmoney
05-19-2018, 09:08 AM
@thomas48 @BMG, send your kits to [email protected] (David from the Eurogenes blog) along with a small fee which he'll run you through. He'll model your genome in terms of a composition of ancients+moderns source populations like what I have in my footer, and give you co-ordinates that we can used to plot your results compared to other South Asians in PCAs.

I'm interested to know which group contributed the Middle-Eastern genes to Syrian Christians and the Knanaya

BMG
05-19-2018, 04:18 PM
Med in South Asians generally comes with the other steppe component NE Euro, but tends to be a much smaller component of steppe.

It's probably the ENF that came with Sintashta, so its likely in here but diluted to noise levels (<0.5%) since Syrian Christians tend to score low NE Euro unlike Southern Brahmins.

This further supports the fact that Brahmins did not convert into the Syrian Christian religion, or formed a small numerical component within the community if they did later on

My paternal grandfather have med in harappa . And both my paternal grandparents have relatively high NE euro too . My paternal grandfather (tested his sister ) is 5.11% Caucasian 4.38% NE Euro and 1.14% Med And my paternal grandmother(her sister) is 3.80% Caucasian 4.95% Ne Euro and 0% med (both 23andme v4) and my maternal uncle is 6.46% Caucasian 1.86% NE euro and 0% med (Geno 2.0 ) while I am 4.75% Caucasian 3.56% NE euro and 0% med (ftdna) and 4.33% Caucasian and 3.89% NE Euro (Geno 2.0). I have seen med in few of the syrian christian results . Highest i have seen is in one of the members here who got 2.71% Med surprisingly she had very low caucasian which was below 2% .

BMG
05-19-2018, 04:24 PM
That got me thinking about Kerala Brahmins, we have only 1 sample and he/she scores weirdly compared to other Southern Brahmins.

Mallus tend to score SW Asian weirdly as opposed to other southern states, whats going on there:

23263

There were 2 kerala brahmins in gedmatch one of whom was is my match list . both of them is not there since their email id was not updated . Both had near 4% SW Asian and had low 42% S.I indian . Long before i had posted their results somewhere in anthrogenica .

BMG
05-19-2018, 04:33 PM
Wow so this would mean that M33a2 isnít the only mtDNA found among the Knanaya. Is U1a1c1d itself indicative of West Asia?

U1a1c1d is a common mtdna haplogroup in kerala . I have lots of matches having this haplogroup in ftdna , 23andme and gedmatch . It was before termed as U1a3 and U1a1c4 also ,so older testers will show that .

BMG
05-19-2018, 04:43 PM
here you go, largely similar to Kerala's other ethnic groups. I'm assuming Christian here is referring to Syrian Christian due to the Syrian Christian results I've seen which resemble this average.

The Christians have a Caucasian tilt as opposed to the Baloch tilt the Nairs have.

2-3% SW Asian seems to be the norm across the groups but I don't score any. The component scores might be affected by small sample sizes

Muslims seem to have more of a South Indian shift with higher AASI related components, South Indian, Papuan & SE Asian.

No doubt there is substructure in these groups as they are quite broad.

23261

Those muslim samples are rawther muslims with origins from tamilnadu .they are not representative of mappila muslims . The mappila muslim in general has south indian score similar to syrian christians but have more outliers having high sw asian(possible arab mix) or high caucasian and ne euro (possible north indian muslim mix). The Nairs have less south indian than non-knanaya syrian christians compensated by higher baloch and ne euro .

BMG
05-19-2018, 04:46 PM
Heres a breakdown for the St. Thomas Christians in general.

23241
23242
23243

L, J2, and R2 are the highest Y-DNA results so far.
M by a huge majority is the highest result for MtDNA.

R-M512 is R1a . R1a is most common following by J2a and L1a

Johane Derite
05-19-2018, 04:51 PM
Wow so this would mean that M33a2 isn’t the only mtDNA found among the Knanaya. Is U1a1c1d itself indicative of West Asia?


U1a1c1d is a common mtdna haplogroup in kerala . I have lots of matches having this haplogroup in ftdna , 23andme and gedmatch . It was before termed as U1a3 and U1a1c4 also ,so older testers will show that .

Check this thread about U1 it will be of interest to you:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13600-U1-General-Thread

Thomas48
05-19-2018, 06:27 PM
(Non-Knanaya) St. Thomas Christians Autosomal Results Part 2 (Broad Family Tree DNA). What's interesting to note is that some St. Thomas Christians have 4-5% Sephardic results, most likely an indicator of Paradesi Jews that joined the Nasrani Community. Again on average for Middle East it seems that Non-Knanaya St. Thomas Christians have about 5%, this could be a general indicator of Middle Easterners coming to Kerala's ancient seaports for trade and settling there.

St. Thomas Christian #24
South Asian - 98%
West Middle East - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #25
South Asian - 94%
Middle Eastern - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #26
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #27
South Asian - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #28
South Asian - 95%
European - 3%
Middle Eastern - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #29
South Asia - 96%
Middle Eastern - 2%
Southeast Asia - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #30
South Asia - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #31
South Asia - 97%
European - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #32
South Asian - 97%
East Asian - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #33
South Asia - 91%
Middle East - 7%
North/Central America - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #34
South Asian - 97%
West Africa - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #35
South Asian - 90%
Middle East - 8%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #36
South Asian - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #37
South Asia - 49%
African - 38%
European - 8%
Middle East - 3%
South Central Africa - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #38
South Asia - 88%
Middle East - 3%
European - 6%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #39
South Asian - 92%
Sephardic - 6%
East Europe - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #40
South Asia - 89%
Middle Eastern - 6%
European - 3%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #41
South Asia - 89%
Middle East - 9%
Finland - 1%

St. Thomas Christian #42
South Asia - 95%
Middle East - 5%

St. Thomas Christian #43
South Asian - 96%
North/South/Central America - 2%
West Middle East - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #44
South Asia - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #45
South Asia - 97%
Middle East - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #46
South Asia - 96%
East Middle East - 2%
East Central Africa - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #47
South Asia - 98%
North/South East Asia - 2%

BMG
05-19-2018, 06:33 PM
Here is an old thread I have created long before. We can discuss the non DNA part there .User fil was a knanaya I don't know if he is still a member here.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5713-Christians-of-Kerala-Thoughts-on-their-origins-history-and-evolution-to-present

Rustyshakelford
05-19-2018, 09:03 PM
(Non-Knanaya) St. Thomas Christians Autosomal Results Part 2 (Broad Family Tree DNA). What's interesting to note is that some St. Thomas Christians have 4-5% Sephardic results, most likely an indicator of Paradesi Jews that joined the Nasrani Community. Again on average for Middle East it seems that Non-Knanaya St. Thomas Christians have about 5%, this could be a general indicator of Middle Easterners coming to Kerala's ancient seaports for trade and settling there.

St. Thomas Christian #24
South Asian - 98%
West Middle East - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #25
South Asian - 94%
Middle Eastern - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #26
South Asian - 95%
Middle East - 4%

St. Thomas Christian #27
South Asian - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #28
South Asian - 95%
European - 3%
Middle Eastern - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #29
South Asia - 96%
Middle Eastern - 2%
Southeast Asia - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #30
South Asia - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #31
South Asia - 97%
European - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #32
South Asian - 97%
East Asian - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #33
South Asia - 91%
Middle East - 7%
North/Central America - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #34
South Asian - 97%
West Africa - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #35
South Asian - 90%
Middle East - 8%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #36
South Asian - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #37
South Asia - 49%
African - 38%
European - 8%
Middle East - 3%
South Central Africa - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #38
South Asia - 88%
Middle East - 3%
European - 6%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #39
South Asian - 92%
Sephardic - 6%
East Europe - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #40
South Asia - 89%
Middle Eastern - 6%
European - 3%
Oceania - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #41
South Asia - 89%
Middle East - 9%
Finland - 1%

St. Thomas Christian #42
South Asia - 95%
Middle East - 5%

St. Thomas Christian #43
South Asian - 96%
North/South/Central America - 2%
West Middle East - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #44
South Asia - 100%

St. Thomas Christian #45
South Asia - 97%
Middle East - 3%

St. Thomas Christian #46
South Asia - 96%
East Middle East - 2%
East Central Africa - 2%

St. Thomas Christian #47
South Asia - 98%
North/South East Asia - 2%

Whatís going on with #37??

Rustyshakelford
05-19-2018, 09:14 PM
U1a1c1d is a common mtdna haplogroup in kerala . I have lots of matches having this haplogroup in ftdna , 23andme and gedmatch . It was before termed as U1a3 and U1a1c4 also ,so older testers will show that .

Looking at the map on FTDNA it seems to have a wide distribution throughout Europe and the Middle East along with a bunch concentrated in Kerala. Any reason why itís so common in Kerala but not in other parts of India?

Johane Derite
05-19-2018, 09:23 PM
Looking at the map on FTDNA it seems to have a wide distribution throughout Europe and the Middle East along with a bunch concentrated in Kerala. Any reason why it’s so common in Kerala but not in other parts of India?

One explanation I got was that Kerala or near it there are many ports that historically have been accesible by merchants and that some merchants from eurasia even settled there or nearby.

Thomas48
05-19-2018, 09:50 PM
What’s going on with #37??

#37 confuses me as well. I was thinking at first perhaps West or North African traders settled in Kerala and influenced this individuals line but to have 38% African autosomal, I believe this would have to be something more recent? I'm not sure.

bmoney
05-20-2018, 01:13 AM
My paternal grandfather have med in harappa . And both my paternal grandparents have relatively high NE euro too . My paternal grandfather (tested his sister ) is 5.11% Caucasian 4.38% NE Euro and 1.14% Med And my paternal grandmother(her sister) is 3.80% Caucasian 4.95% Ne Euro and 0% med (both 23andme v4) and my maternal uncle is 6.46% Caucasian 1.86% NE euro and 0% med (Geno 2.0 ) while I am 4.75% Caucasian 3.56% NE euro and 0% med (ftdna) and 4.33% Caucasian and 3.89% NE Euro (Geno 2.0). I have seen med in few of the syrian christian results . Highest i have seen is in one of the members here who got 2.71% Med surprisingly she had very low caucasian which was below 2% .

The best explanation is that your family has partial Nair ancestry/background.

Any ideas on whats driving the relatively high SW Asian in all HAP sampled Keralites?

Particularly the Brahmins which makes no sense especially as other Southern Brahmins do not score this component.

bmoney
05-20-2018, 01:16 AM
#37 confuses me as well. I was thinking at first perhaps West or North African traders settled in Kerala and influenced this individuals line but to have 38% African autosomal, I believe this would have to be something more recent? I'm not sure.

Yeah recently mixed individual

bmoney
05-20-2018, 01:23 AM
One explanation I got was that Kerala or near it there are many ports that historically have been accesible by merchants and that some merchants from eurasia even settled there or nearby.

Possibly the % has been by reinforced by West Asian settlers and amplified by matrilineal founder effects in Syrian Christians like BMG has mentioned in the other thread, but its also present in Andhra Pradesh which does not have this situation.

Either way its not recent (in Andhra Pradesh and Syrian Christians, maybe the Knanaya) and definitely not Indo-Aryan

BMG
05-20-2018, 02:00 AM
The best explanation is that your family has partial Nair ancestry/background.

Any ideas on whats driving the relatively high SW Asian in all HAP sampled Keralites?

Particularly the Brahmins which makes no sense especially as other Southern Brahmins do not score this component.
Both of the paternal grandparents were comparatively poor . My paternal grandfather's ancestors were working for a family who were some sort of cheif in the area who was a Christian .They were trained in martial arts and was not allowed to take any job other than strongmen for that family . In late 18th century such type of customs were condemned by church and my ancestor was a free man but continued to work for them . Later by crooked mean he amassed wealth from the same family but was again cheated in turn by somebody else and died a poor man.Another line in my paternal grandfather's family ran a meat shop in their locality .
My paternal grandmother's family had an ayurvedic tradition . Her grandfather did ayurvedic consultation for free . One of the related family through her direct family line has been given the title of vaidhyan which thet continue to use as family name .Also her family are non beef eaters . She told that they didn't since they were diary farmers . Not sure they followed that traditionally .

BMG
05-20-2018, 02:15 AM
Looking at the map on FTDNA it seems to have a wide distribution throughout Europe and the Middle East along with a bunch concentrated in Kerala. Any reason why it’s so common in Kerala but not in other parts of India?
It is just that most ftdna tested are from Kerala . This particular subclade is present throughout India . There were few members in the forum with the subclade . One tajik , one punjabi Brahmin and one syrian Christian . There is one Andhra muslim who is U1a1 which can be either U1a1c4 or U1a1a1 the other subclade which is common here . Other known ones to me are 1 burusho in HDGP , one chitpavan Brahmin and one Tamil . In Kerala it is found irrespective of caste and religion . The tribal people in karnataka called koragas have high U1a1 but they are mostly U1a1a1 .

BMG
05-20-2018, 02:23 AM
Possibly the % has been by reinforced by West Asian settlers and amplified by matrilineal founder effects in Syrian Christians like BMG has mentioned in the other thread, but its also present in Andhra Pradesh which does not have this situation.

Either way its not recent (in Andhra Pradesh and Syrian Christians, maybe the Knanaya) and definitely not Indo-Aryan

My guess is that it came with Iranian farmers who also bought L1 here .

BMG
05-20-2018, 02:25 AM
#37 confuses me as well. I was thinking at first perhaps West or North African traders settled in Kerala and influenced this individuals line but to have 38% African autosomal, I believe this would have to be something more recent? I'm not sure.

He/she might be half African American.

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 02:48 AM
I’m not sure about other places in India but definetly in Kerala the high SW Asia and Caucuses is most probably simply because of trade. You can find in so many resources about the traffic of goods and services through the ancient port of Muzirus. There’s evidence of Romans, Greeks, and a range of Middle Easterners doing trade with Kerala.

bmoney
05-20-2018, 03:09 AM
I’m not sure about other places in India but definetly in Kerala the high SW Asia and Caucuses is most probably simply because of trade. You can find in so many resources about the traffic of goods and services through the ancient port of Muzirus. There’s evidence of Romans, Greeks, and a range of Middle Easterners doing trade with Kerala.

Agree, but this shouldn't have affected the Brahmins who were relatively recent migrants. If anything they have higher levels of it which is strange

BMG
05-20-2018, 03:14 AM
Agree, but this shouldn't have affected the Brahmins who were relatively recent migrants. If anything they have higher levels of it which is strange

Possibly the migrating brahmins mixed with the aristocracy existing here and hence acquired the high SW asian from them.

bmoney
05-20-2018, 04:07 AM
Possibly the migrating brahmins mixed with the aristocracy existing here and hence acquired the high SW asian from them.

makes sense, the only real possibility

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 01:05 PM
Three More Knanaya: FtDNA Autosomal Results

91 % Central South Asian
9 % Middle Eastern

85 % Central South Asian
13 % Middle Eastern
2 % Jewish Diaspora

80 % Central South Asian
16 % Middle Eastern
4% Jewish Diaspora

I was speaking to one of the Knanaya members of FtDNA and he told me he spent a great time comparing his own DNA to other groups in Kerala I.E Kerala Christians, Brahmins, and Cochin Jews. He found that on every turn Knanaya DNA most closely matched to Cochin Jews and that his family was even related to some and shared the same house name. He took a trip to Israel to the Cochin Jew sector and was doing some research. He found that there was actually a sub-group of Jews in Kerala called the Knayim which were later forced to convert the Christianity by European missionaries. He was telling me that he always assumed that the Knanaya were this sub-group.

Rustyshakelford
05-20-2018, 03:22 PM
The best explanation is that your family has partial Nair ancestry/background.

Any ideas on whats driving the relatively high SW Asian in all HAP sampled Keralites?

Particularly the Brahmins which makes no sense especially as other Southern Brahmins do not score this component.

From European sources itís been recorded that Nairs frequently converted to Christianity and we can assume that most St. Thomas Christians have some Nair ancestry. I would guess nairs and ezhava made up the bulk of converts.

Rustyshakelford
05-20-2018, 03:30 PM
Three More Knanaya: FtDNA Autosomal Results

91 % Central South Asian
9 % Middle Eastern

85 % Central South Asian
13 % Middle Eastern
2 % Jewish Diaspora

80 % Central South Asian
16 % Middle Eastern
4% Jewish Diaspora

I was speaking to one of the Knanaya members of FtDNA and he told me he spent a great time comparing his own DNA to other groups in Kerala I.E Kerala Christians, Brahmins, and Cochin Jews. He found that on every turn Knanaya DNA most closely matched to Cochin Jews and that his family was even related to some and shared the same house name. He took a trip to Israel to the Cochin Jew sector and was doing some research. He found that there was actually a sub-group of Jews in Kerala called the Knayim which were later forced to convert the Christianity by European missionaries. He was telling me that he always assumed that the Knanaya were this sub-group.

Thatís very interesting, do you know why their was a seperate group called Knayim? Did he ask about their origins or when the forced conversions took place?

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 03:38 PM
Could it be possible that the Knanaya are simply these Knayim? Their culture and dna definetly matches the Cochin Jews and the fabled Thomas of Cana copper plate is almost an exact match to the Cochin Jews Copper Plate, same privleages and same wording. Perhaps upon forced conversion to Christianity the Knayim used the figure of Thomas of Cana as their claim to ancient Christianity? Their name perfectly matches to Thomas of Cana’s name in Malayalam “Knai/Kinai Thoma”. Perhaps this coincidence was used to the advantage of the Knayim. When Portuguese Archbishop Roz copied down the information of the Thomas of Cana copperplate, he states he got it from a palm leaf inscription from the Southist (Knanaya). Could this be because after their forced conversion to Christianity they had lost their right to their actual copper plate (Cochin Jew plate) and copied the contents down on a palm leaf in a way to retain their rights but instead changed Joseph Rabban to Thomas of Cana? In an even more striking factor, the Knanaya claim a bishop named “Uraha Mar Yoseph (Joseph)” came with Thomas of Cana. Joseph Rabban was said to be a spiritual leader of the Jews and he was also said to be from a place called Uraha. Did these Knayim use Thomas of Cana and made Uraha Mar Yoseph out of Joseph Rabban? Thomas of Cana was an already existing figure in the folk culture of the St. Thomas Christians, I think it is very possible that the Knanaya are simply these Knayim. There is so many correlations.

Perhaps this is what also caused the extreme antagonism between the Northist St. Thomas
Christians as well? The Knanaya essentially used one of their fathers? Of course all of this is simply speculation.

These kind of apprehensions are common in Kerala culture, for example the Paradesi Jews claim that they are the original Jews in India and Joseph Rabban is their forefather. However the Paradesi only arrived in India during the 16/17th century and have no relation to Joseph Rabban. In actuality Joseph Rabban is the father of the Cochin Jews and they are the original Jews of India.

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Repost!

Rustyshakelford
05-20-2018, 09:22 PM
Could it be possible that the Knanaya are simply these Knayim? Their culture and dna definetly matches the Cochin Jews and the fabled Thomas of Cana copper plate is almost an exact match to the Cochin Jews Copper Plate, same privleages and same wording. Perhaps upon forced conversion to Christianity the Knayim used the figure of Thomas of Cana as their claim to ancient Christianity? Their name perfectly matches to Thomas of Cana’s name in Malayalam “Knai/Kinai Thoma”. Perhaps this coincidence was used to the advantage of the Knayim. When Portuguese Archbishop Roz copied down the information of the Thomas of Cana copperplate, he states he got it from a palm leaf inscription from the Southist (Knanaya). Could this be because after their forced conversion to Christianity they had lost their right to their actual copper plate (Cochin Jew plate) and copied the contents down on a palm leaf in a way to retain their rights but instead changed Joseph Rabban to Thomas of Cana? In an even more striking factor, the Knanaya claim a bishop named “Uraha Mar Yoseph (Joseph)” came with Thomas of Cana. Joseph Rabban was said to be a spiritual leader of the Jews and he was also said to be from a place called Uraha. Did these Knayim use Thomas of Cana and made Uraha Mar Yoseph out of Joseph Rabban? Thomas of Cana was an already existing figure in the folk culture of the St. Thomas Christians, I think it is very possible that the Knanaya are simply these Knayim. There is so many correlations.

Perhaps this is what also caused the extreme antagonism between the Northist St. Thomas
Christians as well? The Knanaya essentially used one of their fathers? Of course all of this is simply speculation.

These kind of apprehensions are common in Kerala culture, for example the Paradesi Jews claim that they are the original Jews in India and Joseph Rabban is their forefather. However the Paradesi only arrived in India during the 16/17th century and have no relation to Joseph Rabban. In actuality Joseph Rabban is the father of the Cochin Jews and they are the original Jews of India.

Can you find out more about them? This is the first Iíve ever heard of a subgroup called Knayim.
I wouldnít put too much stock into the similarity in names because as most know the appellation Knanaya was coined relatively recently (1800s) by a Knanaya polemicist named EM Philip. From what Iíve heard, the word Knanaya is a corruption of the Aramaic word for Canaanite.
the similarity in the 72 priveleges is also not astounding because the Christians of kollam were granted the tharissapally plates which also contained 72 priveleges very similar to the Jewish plates as well. I donít think it means much this, seems to just be a general set of honors and distinctions granted to mercantile communities by local rulers.
The theory that the Knanaya are a group of Cochin Jews who lapsed into Christianity is one that Iíve heard many times before mostly on the Internet. My only qualms with this theory is that I donít understand the approximate timeline. The theory would make more sense if the conversion happened prior to the arrival of Europeans. If they were forcefully converted by Europeans I donít see how they could have adopted the East Syriac Rite. Additionally the Portuguese missionaries despised the Jews. The Knanaya in the other hand were the Staunchest allies of the Portuguese. When the Conan cross oath took place, of over 100 Syrian Christian churches in Kerala only 3 stood with the Portuguese and all of them were Knanaya churches.
Despite this I agree that the DNA evidence and the cultural similarities are compelling.
As BMG advised maybe we should move this discussion to the other thread he posted so we can keep this one solely for discussions on genetics.

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 09:27 PM
Can you find out more about them? This is the first I’ve ever heard of a subgroup called Knayim.
I wouldn’t put too much stock into the similarity in names because as most know the appellation Knanaya was coined relatively recently (1800s) by a Knanaya polemicist named EM Philip. From what I’ve heard, the word Knanaya is a corruption of the Aramaic word for Canaanite.
the similarity in the 72 priveleges is also not astounding because the Christians of kollam were granted the tharissapally plates which also contained 72 priveleges very similar to the Jewish plates as well. I don’t think it means much this, seems to just be a general set of honors and distinctions granted to mercantile communities by local rulers.
The theory that the Knanaya are a group of Cochin Jews who lapsed into Christianity is one that I’ve heard many times before mostly on the Internet. My only qualms with this theory is that I don’t understand the approximate timeline. The theory would make more sense if the conversion happened prior to the arrival of Europeans. If they were forcefully converted by Europeans I don’t see how they could have adopted the East Syriac Rite. Additionally the Portuguese missionaries despised the Jews. The Knanaya in the other hand were the Staunchest allies of the Portuguese. When the Conan cross oath took place, of over 100 Syrian Christian churches in Kerala only 3 stood with the Portuguese and all of them were Knanaya churches.
Despite this I agree that the DNA evidence and the cultural similarities are compelling.
As BMG advised maybe we should move this discussion to the other thread he posted so we can keep this one solely for discussions on genetics.

Wow so the Knayim were converted during the Portuguese Era and they were members of the Thekkumbhagam Synoguage. The Cochin Jews attest that the Knayim were of Yemeni descent and that they were known as Thekkumbhagam or Southists. They supposedly went East out of the coastal areas of Kerala and into the interior during the 1500’s when they were converted. Subsequently this is during the same time Knanaya start coming up on the historical scene and the Knanaya are also called Thekkembhagar or Southists. Wow! The Knanaya I am talking to’s family actually has a family heirloom that is a Yemeni Torah scroll! The Knanaya wedding crown also looks just like a Yemeni Bride wedding crown!

Rustyshakelford
05-20-2018, 10:24 PM
Wow so the Knayim were converted during the Portuguese Era and they were members of the Thekkumbhagam Synoguage. The Cochin Jews attest that the Knayim were of Yemeni descent and that they were known as Thekkumbhagam or Southists. They supposedly went East out of the coastal areas of Kerala and into the interior during the 1500’s when they were converted. Subsequently this is during the same time Knanaya start coming up on the historical scene and the Knanaya are also called Thekkembhagar or Southists. Wow! The Knanaya I am talking to’s family actually has a family heirloom that is a Yemeni Torah scroll! The Knanaya wedding crown also looks just like a Yemeni Bride wedding crown!

Lots of interesting parallels but still lacks historicity.

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 10:49 PM
Lots of interesting parallels but still lacks historicity.

I’ll share the image of the Judaic Scroll if the individual gives me permission.

Thomas48
05-20-2018, 11:25 PM
I'll keep the Non-Genetic information out of here, my fault. It was just exciting information.

Here's the Harappa results of the three Knanaya I posted earlier:

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.67
2 Baloch 34.88
3 Caucasian 11.46
4 SW-Asian 3.12

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.46
2 Baloch 34.52
3 Caucasian 11.64
4 SW-Asian 2.83

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 42.32
2 Baloch 34.15
3 Caucasian 11.94
4 SW-Asian 2.64
5 Mediterranean 2.02

They follow the same exact pattern.

Rustyshakelford
05-21-2018, 12:24 AM
A lot of interesting information, let me know if you have any updates on the knayim and the Cochin jews in general.

Hereís the link to BMG thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5713-Christians-of-Kerala-Thoughts-on-their-origins-history-and-evolution-to-present

pegasus
05-21-2018, 12:41 AM
I'll keep the Non-Genetic information out of here, my fault. It was just exciting information.

Here's the Harappa results of the three Knanaya I posted earlier:

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.67
2 Baloch 34.88
3 Caucasian 11.46
4 SW-Asian 3.12

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.46
2 Baloch 34.52
3 Caucasian 11.64
4 SW-Asian 2.83

#Population Percent
1 S-Indian 42.32
2 Baloch 34.15
3 Caucasian 11.94
4 SW-Asian 2.64
5 Mediterranean 2.02

They follow the same exact pattern.

These groups clearly have relatively recent West Asian ancestry, are these Malabar Orthodox?

Thomas48
05-21-2018, 12:59 AM
These groups clearly have relatively recent West Asian ancestry, are these Malabar Orthodox?


These are all Knanaya. The results for the Non-Knanaya St. Thomas Chrisitans can be seen on the previous pages.

BMG
05-21-2018, 01:44 AM
These groups clearly have relatively recent West Asian ancestry, are these Malabar Orthodox?
The are knanaya , an endogamous subgroup within Syrian Christian who seems to have valid foreign origin claims .

BMG
05-21-2018, 01:49 AM
Wow so the Knayim were converted during the Portuguese Era and they were members of the Thekkumbhagam Synoguage. The Cochin Jews attest that the Knayim were of Yemeni descent and that they were known as Thekkumbhagam or Southists. They supposedly went East out of the coastal areas of Kerala and into the interior during the 1500’s when they were converted. Subsequently this is during the same time Knanaya start coming up on the historical scene and the Knanaya are also called Thekkembhagar or Southists. Wow! The Knanaya I am talking to’s family actually has a family heirloom that is a Yemeni Torah scroll! The Knanaya wedding crown also looks just like a Yemeni Bride wedding crown!

Just for perspective the harappa scores for an Yemenite Jew and Iraqi Jew
Yemenite Jew
50.72% SW Asian
35.81% Caucasian
5.87% Med
4.34% E African

Iraq Jew
48.77% Caucasian
23.57% SW Asian
17.27% Baloch
8.65% Med

See my post here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5713-Christians-of-Kerala-Thoughts-on-their-origins-history-and-evolution-to-present

bmoney
05-21-2018, 02:14 AM
Just for perspective the harappa scores for an Yemenite Jew and Iraqi Jew
Yemenite Jew
50.72% SW Asian
35.81% Caucasian
5.87% Med
4.34% E African

Iraq Jew
48.77% Caucasian
23.57% SW Asian
17.27% Baloch
8.65% Med

Iraq Jew seems to be a more likely source of admixture than Yemenite

Thomas48
05-21-2018, 04:57 AM
Ancient Torah scrolls, Knanaya family heirloom. The Knanaya individual that I am in contact with told me these scrolls are most likely 500 year old.

23307

Rustyshakelford
05-21-2018, 05:46 AM
Ancient Torah scrolls, Knanaya family heirloom. The Knanaya individual that I am in contact with told me these scrolls are most likely 500 year old.

23307

Highly suspicious. The historicity or this needs to be verified. Tell him to take it to the Indian Council of Historical Research or to the Ministry of Culture and get it checked out. We need to slow down before we claim this as a Knanaya heirloom, this is more likely a hoax created by some overzealous Knanaya guy who got a little too excited when he found out he has some middle eastern/ Jewish DNA.

Thomas48
05-21-2018, 05:55 AM
Highly suspicious. The historicity or this needs to be verified. Tell him to take it to the Indian Council of Historical Research or to the Ministry of Culture and get it checked out. We need to slow down before we claim this as a Knanaya heirloom, this is more likely a hoax created by some overzealous Knanaya guy who got a little too excited when he found out he has some middle eastern/ Jewish DNA.

I'll find out more information about them, good to remain skeptical at the moment.

Thomas48
05-22-2018, 06:00 PM
Out of curiosity are there any other Kerala populations that match the 15% Middle Eastern average similar to the Knanaya? Besides the Cochin Jews of course.

BMG
05-25-2018, 05:44 PM
As bmoney asked in another thread regarding nambudiri Ydna I thought I will post it here instead of cluttering that thread .
R1a -3 ( 1 from harappadna , 1 mixed nair with a nambuduri grandfather and a mixed European whose grandfather is a Kerala Brahmin and he is L657 too ) , Q1a3 -2 ( My friend who is again a nair who have a nambuduri paternal ancestor and one from FTDNA who is also a nair with nambuduri paternal ancestor .) , C-F1370 - 1(genographic project ,his surname is kymal which I guess is nambudiri surname) .

Rustyshakelford
05-25-2018, 06:53 PM
If you mean kaimal, I think theyíre a nair subcaste but I could be wrong.

Rustyshakelford
05-25-2018, 07:05 PM
Out of curiosity are there any other Kerala populations that match the 15% Middle Eastern average similar to the Knanaya? Besides the Cochin Jews of course.

Iím guessing that subgroups of Muslims in north kerala will have significant foreign ancestry. Groups like thangals probably have much more than 15 percent

bmoney
05-26-2018, 02:17 AM
I’m guessing that subgroups of Muslims in north kerala will have significant foreign ancestry. Groups like thangals probably have much more than 15 percent

Being from north Kerala myself, I disagree. Most were converts from Thiyyas and possibly Nairs due to Tipu Sultans incursions.

The Arab inspired Islahi movement tried to further remove the pre-conversion influence which has stayed on post-conversion

Thangals are an exception, and have known Yemeni ancestry.

The Arakkal royal family of Kannur were rumoured to be founded by a Nair convert, so unless explicitly documented they are likely converts like most Syrian Christians.

Haplogroup E (0%) and J1 (20% J was found and is probably South Asian J2 not Semitic J1) is at low levels in the community, which given that most of Islam in Kerala came from Yemen tells you all you need to know.

Also I would expect elevated SW Asian and E African (relatively high in Yemen) in the results if due to admixture, and I'm not sure if this is the case. Have only seen results in HAP which are Rawther not Mappila as BMG as referred to, and they don't show this admixture

BMG
05-26-2018, 03:04 AM
Being from north Kerala myself, I disagree. Most were converts from Thiyyas and possibly Nairs due to Tipu Sultans incursions.

The Arab inspired Islahi movement tried to further remove the pre-conversion influence which has stayed on post-conversion

Thangals are an exception, and have known Yemeni ancestry.

The Arakkal royal family of Kannur were rumoured to be founded by a Nair convert, so unless explicitly documented they are likely converts like most Syrian Christians.

Haplogroup E (0%) and J1 (20% J was found and is probably South Asian J2 not Semitic J1) is at low levels in the community, which given that most of Islam in Kerala came from Yemen tells you all you need to know.

Also I would expect elevated SW Asian and E African (relatively high in Yemen) in the results if due to admixture, and I'm not sure if this is the case. Have only seen results in HAP which are Rawther not Mappila as BMG as referred to, and they don't show this admixture
What about the descendants of shahbandar khojas many of whom settled here . The marakkars and other ship builders too have commercial and marital relations with Arabs and others . Bukhari thangals claim sayyid ancestry from bukhara , Uzbekistan . Rawthers themselves claims to be descendants of turkic soldiers . Also the Malabar muslims have relations with muslims in Mangalore,Mysore , Hyderabad and Dharwad .The muslims in india generally are more cosmopolitan than Hindus . From the few harrapa results I have seen they resemble average malayalis but one person have told me some of them show elevated Caucasian and NE euro which I think is due to North Indian mixture and some have higher sw asian but I have not seen them personally .

bmoney
05-26-2018, 03:18 AM
What about the descendants of shahbandar khojas many of whom settled here . The marakkars and other ship builders too have commercial and marital relations with Arabs and others . Bukhari thangals claim sayyid ancestry from bukhara , Uzbekistan . Rawthers themselves claims to be descendants of turkic soldiers . Also the Malabar muslims have relations with muslims in Mangalore,Mysore , Hyderabad and Dharwad .The muslims in india generally are more cosmopolitan than Hindus . From the few harrapa results I have seen they resemble average malayalis but one person have told me some of them show elevated Caucasian and NE euro which I think is due to North Indian mixture and some have higher sw asian but I have not seen them personally .

The vast numerical bulk live in villages in the interior. It's possible there are distinct settlers in port cities like Calicut and Thalassery like you mention, however they would form the cosmopolitan minority. There are no popular culture references to the communities you speak of such as Bukhara Muslims, so their numbers are likely insignificant

North Kerala Muslims on the whole are actually quite traditional and rural, some of the local north Kerala dialects are best spoken and preserved by them, whereas the Hindus tend to migrate away from the villages and assimilate into mainstream South Kerala (standard Malayalam) culture.

I've never heard of the Mappila having any connection whatsoever to Dakhni Muslims, in Kasaragod there probably is intermarriage between Mappila and the Tulu Bearys (Beary basha is kind of a halfway language between Malayalam and Tulu) but the communities are almost identical and I wouldn't count that as cosmopolitan

bmoney
05-26-2018, 03:39 AM
Thanks BMG - here are some Mappila results, common theme is low to no NE Euro, average Kerala SW Asian levels, no E African.

Likely pre-conversion background of these samples is Thiyya, as they resemble the Ezhava result you showed me before BMG.

Closest single Oracle distances for two of them were Andhra populations

23456

BMG
05-27-2018, 02:17 AM
The vast numerical bulk live in villages in the interior. It's possible there are distinct settlers in port cities like Calicut and Thalassery like you mention, however they would form the cosmopolitan minority. There are no popular culture references to the communities you speak of such as Bukhara Muslims, so their numbers are likely insignificant

North Kerala Muslims on the whole are actually quite traditional and rural, some of the local north Kerala dialects are best spoken and preserved by them, whereas the Hindus tend to migrate away from the villages and assimilate into mainstream South Kerala (standard Malayalam) culture.

I've never heard of the Mappila having any connection whatsoever to Dakhni Muslims, in Kasaragod there probably is intermarriage between Mappila and the Tulu Bearys (Beary basha is kind of a halfway language between Malayalam and Tulu) but the communities are almost identical and I wouldn't count that as cosmopolitan
I am not speaking of distinct communities and they are mixed well and does not have separate identity . Their descendants will be spread among many by now. Bukhari thangals marry with other thangal families and as a whole these thangals make very small percentages of the community.

BMG
05-27-2018, 02:36 AM
Thanks BMG - here are some Mappila results, common theme is low to no NE Euro, average Kerala SW Asian levels, no E African.

Likely pre-conversion background of these samples is Thiyya, as they resemble the Ezhava result you showed me before BMG.

Closest single Oracle distances for two of them were Andhra populations

23456

One of them have very similar harappadna results to me . I know 2 more who are also similar to that one .I couldn't find that kit no's now . There is another one shared by bolnat but I don't know the kit number . Also I don't know they are mappila muslims but only sure they are Kerala muslims .

Rustyshakelford
05-29-2018, 04:37 PM
Being from north Kerala myself, I disagree. Most were converts from Thiyyas and possibly Nairs due to Tipu Sultans incursions.

The Arab inspired Islahi movement tried to further remove the pre-conversion influence which has stayed on post-conversion

Thangals are an exception, and have known Yemeni ancestry.

The Arakkal royal family of Kannur were rumoured to be founded by a Nair convert, so unless explicitly documented they are likely converts like most Syrian Christians.

Haplogroup E (0%) and J1 (20% J was found and is probably South Asian J2 not Semitic J1) is at low levels in the community, which given that most of Islam in Kerala came from Yemen tells you all you need to know.

Also I would expect elevated SW Asian and E African (relatively high in Yemen) in the results if due to admixture, and I'm not sure if this is the case. Have only seen results in HAP which are Rawther not Mappila as BMG as referred to, and they don't show this admixture

Of course I agree the vast majority of Kerala Muslims and Christians will have no discernible foreign ancestry. I donít know much about the Kerala Muslim community as Iím from central kerala and most of the Muslims here are ďthullukarĒ not mappilas.
Thangals I think are recent immigrants (1700s/1800s) so Iím curious to see what their results look like.

Rustyshakelford
05-29-2018, 04:45 PM
The vast numerical bulk live in villages in the interior. It's possible there are distinct settlers in port cities like Calicut and Thalassery like you mention, however they would form the cosmopolitan minority. There are no popular culture references to the communities you speak of such as Bukhara Muslims, so their numbers are likely insignificant

North Kerala Muslims on the whole are actually quite traditional and rural, some of the local north Kerala dialects are best spoken and preserved by them, whereas the Hindus tend to migrate away from the villages and assimilate into mainstream South Kerala (standard Malayalam) culture.

I've never heard of the Mappila having any connection whatsoever to Dakhni Muslims, in Kasaragod there probably is intermarriage between Mappila and the Tulu Bearys (Beary basha is kind of a halfway language between Malayalam and Tulu) but the communities are almost identical and I wouldn't count that as cosmopolitan

I think Muslims in the rest of India tend to be concentrated in urban centers largely due to Mughals, but in Kerala the mappilas seem to be largely a rural population, many of whom were tenant farmers (see moplah lahala).

bmoney
05-30-2018, 12:54 AM
I think Muslims in the rest of India tend to be concentrated in urban centers largely due to Mughals, but in Kerala the mappilas seem to be largely a rural population, many of whom were tenant farmers (see moplah lahala).

That is correct.

UP also has a large rural Muslim population like Kerala.

Also, I'm not familiar with Calicut or Malappuram (South Malabar) which tend to be more urban.

bmoney
05-30-2018, 12:58 AM
@BMG can you do your global 25?

I'm interested in the ancients contribution to Syrian Christians. Maybe some Middle-Eastern adna can be discerned

BMG
05-30-2018, 04:03 AM
@BMG can you do your global 25?

I'm interested in the ancients contribution to Syrian Christians. Maybe some Middle-Eastern adna can be discerned
How to do that ?
I am getting one of the lowest middle eastern ancestry among Syrian Christians in various calculators . My paternal side results are slightly off from the norm and my mother's side is mixed with suspected bengali ancestry and may have Tamil ancestry too . Even in ftdna myorigins I am not getting any middle eastern other than <1% Asia minor .

bmoney
05-30-2018, 04:17 AM
How to do that ?
I am getting one of the lowest middle eastern ancestry among Syrian Christians in various calculators . My paternal side results are slightly off from the norm and my mother's side is mixed with suspected bengali ancestry and may have Tamil ancestry too . Even in ftdna myorigins I am not getting any middle eastern other than <1% Asia minor .

email [email protected] (Davidski) and pay him a fee via paypal, which he will tell you

Those calculators are based on moderns, any historical admixture is better discerned in ancients modelling. Anything you get outside SISBA3 and Steppe (Sintashta) would be interesting and possibly a sign of ancient ME admixture (Natufian etc)

Also could you let me know if you know of any kits from Southern Karnataka (Tulu Nadu, Coorg), North Kerala or the Marathas. I feel these areas share a somewhat common genetic heritage

BMG
05-30-2018, 04:51 AM
email [email protected] (Davidski) and pay him a fee via paypal, which he will tell you

Those calculators are based on moderns, any historical admixture is better discerned in ancients modelling. Anything you get outside SISBA3 and Steppe (Sintashta) would be interesting and possibly a sign of ancient ME admixture (Natufian etc)

Also could you let me know if you know of any kits from Southern Karnataka (Tulu Nadu, Coorg), North Kerala or the Marathas. I feel these areas share a somewhat common genetic heritage
Yeah I will do
I am also interested in DNA makeup of bunts , billavas ,coorgis ,bearys ,gsbs ,tulu brahmins ,Desai ,konkanis etc . Karnataka and Maharashtra are blind spots in our genetic map . As of now I don't know any kit or anybody who have tested .

BMG
05-30-2018, 07:30 PM
email [email protected] (Davidski) and pay him a fee via paypal, which he will tell you

Those calculators are based on moderns, any historical admixture is better discerned in ancients modelling. Anything you get outside SISBA3 and Steppe (Sintashta) would be interesting and possibly a sign of ancient ME admixture (Natufian etc)

Also could you let me know if you know of any kits from Southern Karnataka (Tulu Nadu, Coorg), North Kerala or the Marathas. I feel these areas share a somewhat common genetic heritage

A few karnataka ,konkani and marathi results ,mostly brahmin

Goud Saraswat Brahmin
1 S-Indian 44.29
2 Baloch 37.19
3 NE-Euro 8
4 Caucasian 4.78
5 Mediterranean 1.89
6 Beringian 1.44
7 American 0.93
8 SW-Asian 0.53
9 San 0.31
10 SE-Asian 0.28
11 Siberian 0.22
12 E-African 0.14

Shivalli kota brahmin

1 S-Indian 49.12
2 Baloch 35.76
3 Caucasian 7.86
4 NE-Euro 4.13
5 NE-Asian 1.03
6 American 0.57
7 Siberian 0.55
8 SE-Asian 0.49
9 SW-Asian 0.25
10 San 0.22
11 Papuan 0.02


Goud Saraswat Brahmin

1 S-Indian 46.17
2 Baloch 34.2
3 NE-Euro 7.32
4 Caucasian 7.08
5 SE-Asian 1.36
6 Mediterranean 1.2
7 Siberian 0.77
8 American 0.69
9 Beringian 0.6
10 Papuan 0.46
11 SW-Asian 0.14
12 E-African 0.01

Marathi Desasth Brahmin
1 S-Indian 47
2 Baloch 36.39
3 NE-Euro 6.6
4 Caucasian 5
5 SW-Asian 1.64
6 Beringian 1.35
7 Papuan 1.1
8 American 0.61
9 SE-Asian 0.18
10 San 0.08
11 Pygmy 0.05
12 NE-Asian 0.01

Goud Saraswat Brahmin

1 S-Indian 45.44
2 Baloch 35.61
3 NE-Euro 7.18
4 Caucasian 5.02
5 Mediterranean 1.53
6 SW-Asian 1.53
7 NE-Asian 1.43
8 Siberian 1.09
9 American 0.99
10 Beringian 0.19

Konkani Daivajna Brahmin
1 S-Indian 46.31
2 Baloch 34.9
3 Caucasian 7.11
4 NE-Euro 5.06
5 SE-Asian 2.59
6 SW-Asian 1.41
7 Papuan 1.38
8 American 0.81
9 Siberian 0.31
10 Mediterranean 0.1

Marathi Chitapavan Brahmin

1 S-Indian 44.85
2 Baloch 37.47
3 Caucasian 6.76
4 NE-Euro 5.22
5 Mediterranean 1.39
6 SW-Asian 1.37
7 Siberian 1.25
8 SE-Asian 0.98
9 Papuan 0.72

Marathi Chitapavan Brahmin

1 S-Indian 45.27
2 Baloch 35.4
3 Caucasian 7.55
4 NE-Euro 6.32
5 Mediterranean 2.56
6 Siberian 0.96
7 American 0.53
8 SW-Asian 0.44
9 Papuan 0.37
10 SE-Asian 0.26
11 W-African 0.22
12 NE-Asian 0.09
13 Beringian 0.02


Marathi Chitapavan Brahmin
1 S-Indian 46.65
2 Baloch 35.17
3 Caucasian 8.12
4 NE-Euro 4.98
5 SE-Asian 1.24
6 Mediterranean 1.14
7 Siberian 1.05
8 Papuan 1.03
9 American 0.47
10 SW-Asian 0.16

Maratha

1 S-Indian 53.26
2 Baloch 33
3 NE-Euro 3.86
4 Mediterranean 1.69
5 Papuan 1.53
6 Caucasian 1.35
7 NE-Asian 1.23
8 Beringian 1.1
9 SE-Asian 0.95
10 SW-Asian 0.92
11 American 0.7
12 Siberian 0.29
13 San 0.12

Marathi Chitapavan Brahmin
1 S-Indian 47.09
2 Baloch 34.39
3 NE-Euro 5.71
4 Caucasian 5.58
5 Siberian 1.72
6 NE-Asian 1.49
7 Papuan 1.22
8 SW-Asian 0.88
9 American 0.82
10 SE-Asian 0.66
11 Beringian 0.35
12 Pygmy 0.09

Marathi Desasth Brahmin
1 S-Indian 46.34
2 Baloch 35.42
3 NE-Euro 6.26
4 Caucasian 5.92
5 Mediterranean 1.75
6 SE-Asian 1.65
7 Siberian 1.16
8 American 0.92
9 Papuan 0.4
10 San 0.17


Kannada Smartha Brahmin

1 S-Indian 46.47
2 Baloch 36.43
3 Caucasian 7.09
4 NE-Euro 4.64
5 Papuan 1.02
6 Beringian 1
7 American 0.94
8 SW-Asian 0.84
9 NE-Asian 0.74
10 Siberian 0.41
11 SE-Asian 0.38
12 Mediterranean 0.04

Marathi Karhade Brahmin

1 S-Indian 46.43
2 Baloch 36.38
3 Caucasian 6.04
4 NE-Euro 3.86
5 Mediterranean 2.18
6 Siberian 1.58
7 American 1.15
8 SE-Asian 0.63
9 SW-Asian 0.56
10 Papuan 0.39
11 NE-Asian 0.36
12 San 0.26
13 Beringian 0.2


Marathi Desasth Brahmin

1 S-Indian 46.27
2 Baloch 35.1
3 Caucasian 7.8
4 NE-Euro 4.23
5 SW-Asian 1.87
6 American 1.55
7 Mediterranean 0.92
8 SE-Asian 0.88
9 NE-Asian 0.77
10 Siberian 0.35
11 Pygmy 0.13
12 San 0.13

Kannada Brahmin

1 S-Indian 48.77
2 Baloch 35.13
3 Caucasian 5.53
4 NE-Euro 5.45
5 SE-Asian 1.89
6 NE-Asian 1.17
7 Mediterranean 0.73
8 SW-Asian 0.47
9 Papuan 0.29
10 American 0.25
11 Beringian 0.23
12 Pygmy 0.08

Goud Saraswat Brahmin
1 S-Indian 45.5
2 Baloch 35.47
3 NE-Euro 6.91
4 Caucasian 6.27
5 Beringian 1.37
6 SW-Asian 1.31
7 NE-Asian 1.02
8 Papuan 0.6
9 Pygmy 0.57
10 SE-Asian 0.56
11 Siberian 0.43

Naik (ST from Karnataka)
1 S-Indian 55.76
2 Baloch 30.53
3 NE-Asian 2.73
4 Caucasian 2.42
5 NE-Euro 2.24
6 Mediterranean 2.09
7 SW-Asian 1.7
8 Papuan 1.5
9 American 0.77
10 Beringian 0.15
11 Siberian 0.11


Karnataka (Patil ??/Brahmin ??)
1 S-Indian 48.39
2 Baloch 36.53
3 Caucasian 4.31
4 NE-Euro 4.04
5 Mediterranean 2.88
6 Beringian 1.54
7 Siberian 0.66
8 SW-Asian 0.6
9 NE-Asian 0.43
10 Papuan 0.38
11 SE-Asian 0.17
12 E-African 0.06


Kannada Smartha Brahmin

1 S-Indian 46.66
2 Baloch 34.96
3 Caucasian 6.81
4 NE-Euro 5.54
5 Beringian 1.68
6 Papuan 0.84
7 SE-Asian 0.81
8 Siberian 0.74
9 SW-Asian 0.63
10 American 0.5
11 E-African 0.49
12 Mediterranean 0.33

Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmin
1 S-Indian 44.46
2 Baloch 35.26
3 Caucasian 6.89
4 NE-Euro 4.67
5 SW-Asian 2.79
6 Mediterranean 1.47
7 Papuan 1.36
8 Beringian 1
9 Siberian 0.59
10 SE-Asian 0.54
11 American 0.54
12 San 0.29
13 NE-Asian 0.13

bmoney
05-31-2018, 01:33 AM
LOL they do have a common genetic heritage - my people :biggrin1:

The 'Kannada Brahmin' seems to be my closest match, guessing its Havyaka.

Incidentally L-M27 has perhaps its strongest distribution in this Maharastra to Malabar Coast region, outside the Baloch

Also I'm quite surprised at the SI shift of the Chitpawans

Wish Zack beefed up the oracle using these regions, so I'd stop getting unrealistically close Tamil results by proxy, my results here:

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.95
2 Baloch 36.47
3 Caucasian 5.85
4 NE-Euro 5.66
5 NE-Asian 1.50
6 Mediterranean 1.48
7 Papuan 1.02

BMG
05-31-2018, 03:34 AM
LOL they do have a common genetic heritage - my people :biggrin1:

The 'Kannada Brahmin' seems to be my closest match, guessing its Havyaka.

Incidentally L-M27 has perhaps its strongest distribution in this Maharastra to Malabar Coast region, outside the Baloch

Also I'm quite surprised at the SI shift of the Chitpawans

Wish Zack beefed up the oracle using these regions, so I'd stop getting unrealistically close Tamil results by proxy, my results here:

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.95
2 Baloch 36.47
3 Caucasian 5.85
4 NE-Euro 5.66
5 NE-Asian 1.50
6 Mediterranean 1.48
7 Papuan 1.02

All these south indian brahmins is not too different from each other and i think they would from a bunch in all the pca plots. Even these Goud Saraswat brahmins who say they are among panch goud family is indistinguishable from their neighbors . The Nairs are also within the range of the brahmins and you have much lower S.Indian as well .One thing i noticed was the kerala brahmin samples had lower S.Indian than all these samples and also the nair and kerala brahmins have higher baloch . Also why would chitapavans S.Indian surprise you . To me it seems within the cline similar to desasths . The maratha sample was surprising with low caucasian and higher S.Indian which was not expected , i rather thought they would be similar to nairs and marathi kayasth prabhus .

BMG
05-31-2018, 03:36 AM
Even my paternal grandparents results will not be out of place among these people which makes me doubt they really have nair related ancestry .

PGF
S-Indian 47.73%
Baloch 35.98%
Caucasian 5.11%
NE-Euro 4.38%
SE-Asian 1.62%
Siberian 0.73%
NE-Asian 1.23%
Papuan 0.45%
American 0.99%
Beringian 0.17%
Meditteranean 1.14%
SW-Asian 0.22%
E-African 0.05%

PGM
S-Indian 48.97%
Baloch 34.62%
Caucasian 3.80%
NE-Euro 4.95%
SE-Asian 0.65%
Siberian 1.52%
NE-Asian 0.44%
Papuan 1.29%
Beringian 0.33%
Meditteranean 0.09%
SW Asian 3.34%

BMG
05-31-2018, 04:14 AM
The uniparentals of the above samples
Goud Saraswat Brahmin
R1a1a M52'58
R2 M30
- M57a

Desasth Brahmin
R1a1a M35a1
R1a1a M5a2a1
Q1a3 M57a

Chitapavan Brahmin

R2 M35b
L1 M38a
R1a1a M5a2a1
R1a1a T2
L1 U1a'c

Karhade Brahmin
R1a1a R8a1a

Maratha
L3 U2b2

Kota Brahmin
- R30a

bmoney
05-31-2018, 06:13 AM
All these south indian brahmins is not too different from each other and i think they would from a bunch in all the pca plots. Even these Goud Saraswat brahmins who say they are among panch goud family is indistinguishable from their neighbors . The Nairs are also within the range of the brahmins and you have much lower S.Indian as well .One thing i noticed was the kerala brahmin samples had lower S.Indian than all these samples and also the nair and kerala brahmins have higher baloch . Also why would chitapavans S.Indian surprise you . To me it seems within the cline similar to desasths . The maratha sample was surprising with low caucasian and higher S.Indian which was not expected , i rather thought they would be similar to nairs and marathi kayasth prabhus .

Chitpawans are known for their extraordinarily fair skin, and have been linked to Jewish settlers.

I thought similarly about the Marathas, this sample could be an outlier level Maratha however. The Caucasian level seems quite low as well.

Anyway the Marathas seem to be a confederation who coalesced into a caste rather than an ancient community, so there is bound to be some variation

Yes overall these Southern Brahmins inc Tamil cluster quite closely, not sure if they came via the East of India or the West (Gujarat) which is what I want to know.

Surprisingly no Js in the y-dna

bmoney
05-31-2018, 06:20 AM
Even my paternal grandparents results will not be out of place among these people which makes me doubt they really have nair related ancestry .

PGF
S-Indian 47.73%
Baloch 35.98%
Caucasian 5.11%
NE-Euro 4.38%
SE-Asian 1.62%
Siberian 0.73%
NE-Asian 1.23%
Papuan 0.45%
American 0.99%
Beringian 0.17%
Meditteranean 1.14%
SW-Asian 0.22%
E-African 0.05%

PGM
S-Indian 48.97%
Baloch 34.62%
Caucasian 3.80%
NE-Euro 4.95%
SE-Asian 0.65%
Siberian 1.52%
NE-Asian 0.44%
Papuan 1.29%
Beringian 0.33%
Meditteranean 0.09%
SW Asian 3.34%

I don't think Nair is the common theme at all.

Nair is just a title/occupation, our community for example do not call ourselves Nairs and never have, European anthropologists did when categorising Kerala natives though even they make the distinction between subcastes.

I think there were settlers in these Southern Lands either from Gujarat (Gujarati Patel) or from UP (Brahmin, UP Kshatriya, Bihar Paswan, Dhangar etc)

The common theme being some level of NE Euro + Med and lower SI which distinguishes these settlers from Lingayats, Ezhavas etc who might have been more ancient settlers.

The genetic cluster here is way tighter than geography would suggest, if Poi modelled these in his PCA we'd all be a bunch of dots compared to spread out PJL or Gujarati samples so the endogamy level was high.

The question is, was this one common group of Southern settlers or many?

I am leaning towards one group due to the level of clustering

BMG
05-31-2018, 06:47 AM
Chitpawans are known for their extraordinarily fair skin, and have been linked to Jewish settlers.

I thought similarly about the Marathas, this sample could be an outlier level Maratha however. The Caucasian level seems quite low as well.

Anyway the Marathas seem to be a confederation who coalesced into a caste rather than an ancient community, so there is bound to be some variation

Yes overall these Southern Brahmins inc Tamil cluster quite closely, not sure if they came via the East of India or the West (Gujarat) which is what I want to know.

Surprisingly no Js in the y-dna
I couldn't find any other maratha out there . I agree that there would be diversity among them.
There is one J2b2 gsb that I know. There are lots of konkani Catholics with surnames like pinto ,D'Souza etc .I will post them later today .

BMG
05-31-2018, 07:17 AM
Chitpawans are known for their extraordinarily fair skin, and have been linked to Jewish settlers.

I thought similarly about the Marathas, this sample could be an outlier level Maratha however. The Caucasian level seems quite low as well.

Anyway the Marathas seem to be a confederation who coalesced into a caste rather than an ancient community, so there is bound to be some variation

Yes overall these Southern Brahmins inc Tamil cluster quite closely, not sure if they came via the East of India or the West (Gujarat) which is what I want to know.

Surprisingly no Js in the y-dna
I have heard about Jewish shipwreck theories regarding chitpawans but I don't think even they believe that .

BMG
05-31-2018, 07:38 AM
I don't think Nair is the common theme at all.

Nair is just a title/occupation, our community for example do not call ourselves Nairs and never have, European anthropologists did when categorising Kerala natives though even they make the distinction between subcastes.

I think there were settlers in these Southern Lands either from Gujarat (Gujarati Patel) or from UP (Brahmin, UP Kshatriya, Bihar Paswan, Dhangar etc)

The common theme being some level of NE Euro + Med and lower SI which distinguishes these settlers from Lingayats, Ezhavas etc who might have been more ancient settlers.

The genetic cluster here is way tighter than geography would suggest, if Poi modelled these in his PCA we'd all be a bunch of dots compared to spread out PJL or Gujarati samples so the endogamy level was high.

The question is, was this one common group of Southern settlers or many?

I am leaning towards one group due to the level of clustering
What makes the Nairs and allied castes different is that they are more similar to south Indian brahmins than the non-brahmins like lingayat ,Reddy etc . It would have been nice if we got some bunt kits . What do you think whether they will be like Nairs or like other middle castes ?

My guess is there would have been one major migration during the revival of Hinduism in South India which might not be the first or last but most influential one . They could have been one group which splintered in subsequent centuries .

bmoney
05-31-2018, 07:45 AM
What makes the Nairs and allied castes different is that they are more similar to south Indian brahmins than the non-brahmins like lingayat ,Reddy etc . It would have been nice if we got some bunt kits . What do you think whether they will be like Nairs or like other middle castes ?

My guess is there would have been one major migration during the revival of Hinduism in South India which might not be the first or last but most influential one . They could have been one group which splintered in subsequent centuries .

My guess is that the Bunts and Coorgis will score the most like less-SI shifted Nairs (one of the hap Nair samples was 0 NE Euro so an assimilated local Nair just like my L-M27 paternal line).

Nadavas are the same matrilineal community and therefore would score similarly, they are from Northern Karnataka.

Yes the Ezhavas/Thiyyas (though the North Malabar Thiyyas consider themselves superior to Ezhavas) were historically Jain/Buddhist and Kings like the Ay Kingdom and the Dravidian Cheras, before the Brahmins and their Shudra lackeys like the Nairs eradicated the religion, acquired most of the land, and made the locals avarna/untouchable and reduced their social status.

This is likely when the language shifted from Chera Tamil-Malayalam to Sanskritised Manipravalam to Malayalam

Also, your paternal grandparents do score like a slightly more admixed version of the same settlers. Do they score very differently to your maternal grandparents?

BMG
05-31-2018, 08:06 AM
My guess is that the Bunts and Coorgis will score the most like less-SI shifted Nairs (one of the hap Nair samples was 0 NE Euro so an assimilated local Nair just like my L-M27 paternal line).

Nadavas are the same matrilineal community and therefore would score similarly, they are from Northern Karnataka.

Yes the Ezhavas/Thiyyas (though the North Malabar Thiyyas consider themselves superior to Ezhavas) were historically Jain/Buddhist and Kings like the Ay Kingdom and the Dravidian Cheras, before the Brahmins and their Shudra lackeys like the Nairs eradicated the religion, acquired most of the land, and made the locals avarna/untouchable and reduced their social status.

This is likely when the language shifted from Chera Tamil-Malayalam to Sanskritised Manipravalam to Malayalam

Also, your paternal grandparents do score like a slightly more admixed version of the same settlers. Do they score very differently to your maternal grandparents?

My Maternal side is represented by Maternal Uncle . He has been tested through Geno 2.0 so the results may be bit noisy .


S-Indian 50.07%
Baloch 33.68%
Caucasian 6.46%
NE-Euro 1.86%
SE-Asian 0.92%
NE-Asian 4.11%
Papuan 0.54%
American 0.26%
SW-Asian 2.10%

bmoney
05-31-2018, 08:11 AM
My Maternal side is represented by Maternal Uncle . He has been tested through Geno 2.0 so the results may be bit noisy .


S-Indian 50.07%
Baloch 33.68%
Caucasian 6.46%
NE-Euro 1.86%
SE-Asian 0.92%
NE-Asian 4.11%
Papuan 0.54%
American 0.26%
SW-Asian 2.10%

Yeah the profile is different, though this just could mean they are more admixed with the locals as the NE Euro still comes through.

Also the NE Asian level is quite high, could be Geno related noise

The Caucasian in this case might be more to do with the Syrian Christian admixture than northern settlers I think who tend to have tandem levels of NE Euro and Caucasian

BMG
05-31-2018, 08:22 AM
My guess is that the Bunts and Coorgis will score the most like less-SI shifted Nairs (one of the hap Nair samples was 0 NE Euro so an assimilated local Nair just like my L-M27 paternal line).

Nadavas are the same matrilineal community and therefore would score similarly, they are from Northern Karnataka.

Yes the Ezhavas/Thiyyas (though the North Malabar Thiyyas consider themselves superior to Ezhavas) were historically Jain/Buddhist and Kings like the Ay Kingdom and the Dravidian Cheras, before the Brahmins and their Shudra lackeys like the Nairs eradicated the religion, acquired most of the land, and made the locals avarna/untouchable and reduced their social status.

This is likely when the language shifted from Chera Tamil-Malayalam to Sanskritised Manipravalam to Malayalam

Also, your paternal grandparents do score like a slightly more admixed version of the same settlers. Do they score very differently to your maternal grandparents?

That hap Nair is a kiriyath Nair from north Kerala.

BMG
05-31-2018, 08:31 AM
Yeah the profile is different, though this just could mean they are more admixed with the locals as the NE Euro still comes through.

Also the NE Asian level is quite high, could be Geno related noise

The Caucasian in this case might be more to do with the Syrian Christian admixture than northern settlers I think who tend to have tandem levels of NE Euro and Caucasian
Ne asian is most likely noise as I don't have even half of that .Most probably all the East Asian kinda like Siberian,beringian etc got into the ne asian .

bmoney
05-31-2018, 01:36 PM
That hap Nair is a kiriyath Nair from north Kerala.

Yeah, I'm surprised I think you told me earlier about this sample.

But probably an assimilated case

North Kerala has plenty of native influence, esp as Wayanad (the origin of the Paniya) is in North Kerala

The ritual tribal dance of Theyyam is one of the local native Dravidian art forms and would likely be ancient

BMG
05-31-2018, 03:23 PM
Goan/Mangalore Catholics

Ydna -J2 Mtdna-M4
1 S-Indian 47.41
2 Baloch 34.07
3 Caucasian 7.54
4 NE-Euro 4.41
5 SW-Asian 2.11
6 NE-Asian 1.19
7 American 0.75
8 Siberian 0.49
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 E-African 0.44
11 Mediterranean 0.41
12 Papuan 0.4
13 Beringian 0.33

Ydna -L1 Mtdna - M52'58
1 S-Indian 49.64
2 Baloch 33.22
3 NE-Euro 4.41
4 Caucasian 3.02
5 Mediterranean 2.72
6 SE-Asian 1.77
7 Siberian 1.67
8 SW-Asian 1.45
9 NE-Asian 0.73
10 Beringian 0.6
11 American 0.3
12 Papuan 0.27
13 San 0.2

Mtdna-U5b2a1
1 S-Indian 46.79
2 Baloch 36.34
3 Caucasian 8.29
4 NE-Euro 4.78
5 SW-Asian 1.5
6 SE-Asian 0.79
7 American 0.74
8 Siberian 0.36
9 Papuan 0.23
10 Mediterranean 0.15
11 E-African 0.03

Ydna - J2b2 Mtdna -M52'58
1 S-Indian 45.2
2 Baloch 37.05
3 Caucasian 5.56
4 NE-Euro 3.84
5 Mediterranean 2.68
6 Beringian 2.13
7 Papuan 1.3
8 SE-Asian 1.14
9 SW-Asian 0.94
10 Pygmy 0.14
11 Siberian 0.01

Ydna - R2 Mtdna M4-64
1 S-Indian 52.49
2 Baloch 32.76
3 Caucasian 5.45
4 NE-Euro 1.95
5 Papuan 1.64
6 NE-Asian 1.38
7 Mediterranean 1.21
8 SE-Asian 1.16
9 Siberian 1.11
10 American 0.58
11 SW-Asian 0.15
12 Beringian 0.12

Mtdna -M52a
1 S-Indian 48.87
2 Baloch 34.07
3 Caucasian 5.58
4 NE-Euro 3.72
5 SE-Asian 1.43
6 NE-Asian 1.38
7 Papuan 1.38
8 Mediterranean 1.35
9 Siberian 1.12
10 SW-Asian 0.73
11 American 0.3
12 Pygmy 0.06

Ydna - Q1a3 Mtdna - M52'58
1 S-Indian 46.04
2 Baloch 34.77
3 Caucasian 6.59
4 NE-Euro 5.95
5 SE-Asian 2.35
6 Papuan 1.64
7 Siberian 1.07
8 American 0.56
9 Beringian 0.32
10 Mediterranean 0.27
11 SW-Asian 0.19
12 NE-Asian 0.15
13 San 0.1

Ydna - H1 Mtdna-M37
1 S-Indian 54.16
2 Baloch 33.34
3 NE-Asian 3.16
4 Caucasian 2.44
5 Mediterranean 2.37
6 SW-Asian 2.12
7 Papuan 1.43
8 SE-Asian 0.39
9 Beringian 0.33
10 American 0.18
11 San 0.03
12 Pygmy 0.03
13 W-African 0.02

Ydna - J2b2 Mtdna - U5a1a2a
1 S-Indian 47.44
2 Baloch 36.46
3 Caucasian 5.17
4 NE-Euro 3.83
5 NE-Asian 1.88
6 Mediterranean 1.64
7 Papuan 1.22
8 SW-Asian 1.11
9 Beringian 0.7
10 American 0.32
11 SE-Asian 0.23

Ydna - H1a Mtdna - M4-64
1 S-Indian 48.74
2 Baloch 35.53
3 Caucasian 6.45
4 NE-Euro 4.85
5 Papuan 1.59
6 NE-Asian 0.86
7 Beringian 0.84
8 American 0.62
9 Pygmy 0.2
10 SW-Asian 0.16
11 E-African 0.07
12 Siberian 0.05
13 SE-Asian 0.03

1 S-Indian 48.41
2 Baloch 35.18
3 Caucasian 6.12
4 NE-Euro 3.2
5 SW-Asian 2.59
6 SE-Asian 1.07
7 Papuan 0.89
8 Mediterranean 0.73
9 NE-Asian 0.72
10 Siberian 0.67
11 American 0.44

Ydna - R1a1a Mtdna - R5
1 S-Indian 53.57
2 Baloch 33.78
3 Caucasian 3.3
4 NE-Euro 1.75
5 SE-Asian 1.49
6 Papuan 1.39
7 SW-Asian 1.29
8 Mediterranean 1.17
9 Beringian 1.07
10 Siberian 0.84
11 American 0.35

Ydna - L1 Mtdna-R6a1

1 S-Indian 48.22
2 Baloch 28.77
3 NE-Euro 6.18
4 SE-Asian 4.4
5 Caucasian 3.85
6 Mediterranean 3.76
7 NE-Asian 2.83
8 SW-Asian 0.81
9 Papuan 0.51
10 American 0.48
11 Siberian 0.1
12 E-African 0.09

bmoney
06-01-2018, 12:43 AM
Goan/Mangalore Catholics

Interesting, they again form a cluster with the Southern Brahmin samples posted earlier but overall with a slightly more southern shift.

I expect some of these samples to overlap with the Southern Brahmins but still an overall tilt towards the South among Konkani Catholics, but well within that broader west coast settler cluster.

A lot of these could easily have been Goan Brahmin converts, judging by the Marathi Brahmin samples

Points to note:

Only one R1a sample

Some of these have quite low Baloch levels, early 30s and one in the 20s

There are two outliers: The H1 and the R1a sample seem to stand out due to their high SI and low NE Euro shift

bmoney
06-01-2018, 01:01 AM
Separate to this I wanted to add something I've been thinking about.

North Kerala barely has any Brahmin settlements (Payyanur and Taliparamba being the sole exceptions), they are mostly settled in and historically settled in Central Kerala which is the vast majority of their numbers. They do not have much of a presence in north Malabar

We do not know much about them and they have no power in our lands

I should not be scoring like a Kerala Brahmin and I do not, they are not even in my top 20 oracle. I get Gujarati at 7, Rajasthani at 8, Meghawal at 4 and Kerala Brahmin didn't even make the list or on any of my 4 way oracles.

So the lies about the Nair caste being born out of Sambandham cannot be true, or is only true in limited cases in Central Kerala.

My thinking is that Bunts, Coorgis, and southern Brahmins (outside Kerala Brahmins) are related to this West coast migration and are an earlier migration.

Also there seems to be some Gangetic plain tribal (ancient Kshatriya whatever you want to call it) influence in this west coast segment.

Using my own results from a G25 based nmonte (more datapoints than Harappa) courtesy of tipirneni:

Bmoney

"distance%=2.0595"

Kanjar,51.7
Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu,16.7
Iran_LN,9.3
Brahmin_Gujarat,8.8
Dusadh,5.3
Yadava,4.9
Brahmin,2.2
ASI_Sim_Final,1

I doubt a Kerala Brahmin would score like this

BMG
06-02-2018, 12:37 AM
Interesting, they again form a cluster with the Southern Brahmin samples posted earlier but overall with a slightly more southern shift.

I expect some of these samples to overlap with the Southern Brahmins but still an overall tilt towards the South among Konkani Catholics, but well within that broader west coast settler cluster.

A lot of these could easily have been Goan Brahmin converts, judging by the Marathi Brahmin samples

Points to note:

Only one R1a sample

Some of these have quite low Baloch levels, early 30s and one in the 20s

There are two outliers: The H1 and the R1a sample seem to stand out due to their high SI and low NE Euro shift
As far as I know there is some caste structure within goan christians though not as rigid as Hindu counterparts . Most of the saraswat Brahmin concerts are called bamon . The Desai and maratha converts are called charddo and lower caste concerts called sudirs . These DNA tested persons will represent more well off thats why most are similar to Brahmin ones . The Mangalore christians consider themselves as the descendants of the survivors of tipu sultan's "concentration camps".

bmoney
06-02-2018, 06:40 AM
As far as I know there is some caste structure within goan christians though not as rigid as Hindu counterparts . Most of the saraswat Brahmin concerts are called bamon . The Desai and maratha converts are called charddo and lower caste concerts called sudirs . These DNA tested persons will represent more well off thats why most are similar to Brahmin ones . The Mangalore christians consider themselves as the descendants of the survivors of tipu sultan's "concentration camps".

Yeah and they weren't the only ones in camps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Mangalorean_Catholics_at_Seringapatam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysorean_invasion_of_Kerala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Nairs_at_Seringapatam

Ayaz Khan, Haider Alis second hand man and favoured successor, was a conquest/convert from my own clan within the sub-caste:

http://historicalleys.blogspot.com/2008/10/kumaran-nambiar-alias-hyat-sahib.html

BMG
06-02-2018, 08:22 AM
Yeah and they weren't the only ones in camps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Mangalorean_Catholics_at_Seringapatam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysorean_invasion_of_Kerala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Nairs_at_Seringapatam

Ayaz Khan, Haider Alis second hand man and favoured successor, was a conquest/convert from my own clan within the sub-caste:

http://historicalleys.blogspot.com/2008/10/kumaran-nambiar-alias-hyat-sahib.html
I have read that before . Actually I love maddy's blog and writing style that i have read all his entries in his blogs

Thomas48
06-08-2018, 06:21 PM
So I linked up with another Knanaya researcher in India and he ran a study on 18 Knanaya and found their Y-DNA to be the following groups:

21% Q Group (Turkey)
32% J2 Group (Middle Easter/Jews)
39% L Group (Anatolia)
R1A 4% Group (North East Europe)
K2 4% Group (West Asia)

This is how he sent me the results, I'm not sure which subclad of L or Q he is mentioning.

My cousins Y-DNA came in, he is also QM242.

bmoney
06-09-2018, 04:17 AM
So I linked up with another Knanaya researcher in India and he ran a study on 18 Knanaya and found their Y-DNA to be the following groups:

21% Q Group (Turkey)
32% J2 Group (Middle Easter/Jews)
39% L Group (Anatolia)
R1A 4% Group (North East Europe)
K2 4% Group (West Asia)

This is how he sent me the results, I'm not sure which subclad of L or Q he is mentioning.

My cousins Y-DNA came in, he is also QM242.

I have no idea how he's linking the countries to the haplogroups, unless hes done deep-Y testing to find subclades. Otherwise he seems misinformed.

J2 is old in SA and linked to Iran_N farmers that predated Indo-Aryans. It's also relatively common in South Indian middle-castes

Q isn't rare in South Asia but is high in the Knanaya, perhaps due to founder effects. It is probably an Iron-Age arrival with Indo-Aryans and its certainly not Yemeni or Syrian

There is no L group from Anatolia, unless its L1b which I highly doubt (would be the first case in India). It is likely L1a1+L1a2, which is a Bronze Age + Iron Age arrival linked to Iran_N settlers and settlers from the BMAC. Knanaya L levels would put them as the group with the second highest L levels after the Afghan Baloch (69.3%) and certainly the highest in India, however the sample size is small.

The K2's there are likely under-tested the only living males reported to carry the basal paragroup K2* are native Australians.

Also R1a is super-low suggesting no Nair or Brahmin paternal ancestry in this group

Whats striking is the lack of actual Middle-East definitive haplogroups like J1 and E which to me suggest the Y gene-pool is predominantly 'native' and based on founder effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

BMG
06-09-2018, 05:00 AM
So I linked up with another Knanaya researcher in India and he ran a study on 18 Knanaya and found their Y-DNA to be the following groups:

21% Q Group (Turkey)
32% J2 Group (Middle Easter/Jews)
39% L Group (Anatolia)
R1A 4% Group (North East Europe)
K2 4% Group (West Asia)

This is how he sent me the results, I'm not sure which subclad of L or Q he is mentioning.

My cousins Y-DNA came in, he is also QM242.

Agree with bmoney .Looks like Mostly indian with high founder effects

Thomas48
06-09-2018, 06:34 AM
Appreciate the feedback, I don’t know much about his background or project but I thought I’d share the results none the less.

BMG
06-09-2018, 06:44 AM
Have you joined ftdna Q project . It is one of the efficient Ydna projects at ftdna . Also the user Taltos is a very good person having information about Q project . You can ask her in Ydna Q section.

Thomas48
06-09-2018, 07:25 AM
Have you joined ftdna Q project . It is one of the efficient Ydna projects at ftdna . Also the user Taltos is a very good person having information about Q project . You can ask her in Ydna Q section.

Not yet! I’ll look into it, thanks for the info. I’ve got a feeling I’ll see more Q among the Knanaya.

bmoney
06-10-2018, 07:18 AM
Agree with bmoney .Looks like Mostly indian with high founder effects

Interestingly no H1a.

So the Indian male founders must have been from a relatively upper-caste pre-Indo-European background

The Q levels are certainly odd, very low R1a and high Q. They are both associated with the same steppe migration

It would definitely be worth pursuing the Q subclades here

bmoney
06-10-2018, 08:08 AM
Regarding Q, there might be a Jewish link

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewish-q/about/results

Particularly subclade:

M323 Yemeni Jews (It is about 5% of the modern Yemeni Jewish population.)

BMG
06-10-2018, 10:20 AM
Interestingly no H1a.

So the Indian male founders must have been from a relatively upper-caste pre-Indo-European background

The Q levels are certainly odd, very low R1a and high Q. They are both associated with the same steppe migration

It would definitely be worth pursuing the Q subclades here
Frequencies doesn't matter in highly endogamous groups. If all the Q belong to the same subclade and have a recent common ancestor within 1000 years then it is just founder effect .
Indian Q subclades are varied and deeply diverged . so some of them might have reached here long before the R1a guys.

BMG
06-10-2018, 03:50 PM
The K2's there are likely under-tested the only living males reported to carry the basal paragroup K2* are native Australians.

Actually there is a K2 subgroup in India which diverges from the precursor of NO . Presently the subgroup have 2 Telugu and a Kerala Christian from the London life sciences project . Wonder that Kerala Christian is knanaya .

Thomas48
06-10-2018, 08:58 PM
Regarding Q, there might be a Jewish link

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewish-q/about/results

Particularly subclade:

M323 Yemeni Jews (It is about 5% of the modern Yemeni Jewish population.)

I joined the Q Jewish study to research the results and it seems that 142/361 are Q-M242. However the vast majority of the Q-M242 Jews are of European origin most likely Ashkenazi.

BMG
06-11-2018, 01:19 AM
I joined the Q Jewish study to research the results and it seems that 142/361 are Q-M242. However the vast majority of the Q-M242 Jews are of European origin most likely Ashkenazi.

M242 is the basal Q SNP . So all the M242 are the ones which have not done any snp testing . Most of the Ashkenazi Q belong to Q1b1a - L245 . From your STR I can safely say that you are downstream of M346 (Q1a3) most probably under Y2659 . Only snp testing can further narrow the subclade .

Thomas48
06-11-2018, 07:23 PM
Thanks for that. Because of the high rating of Caucuses found in the Knanaya, perhaps it would be safe to assume that they were simply Armenians, if of course a conclusive sample amont were gained. A few things that lead me to this is that there are many sources which state Thomas of Cana was an Armenian and there’s even sources from the Portuguese Era that call the Southist (Knanaya) as Armenians by caste. There’s also plenty of records of Armenians doing trade in Kerala. Out of the two dates (4th or 9th century) given in Knanaya folk history for the arrival of Thomas of Cana, the 9th century would fit perfect historically and genetically with the relatively recent Caucuses admixture in the Knanaya. In the 9th century Armenia had a period of peace for the first time under the Bragatuni Dynasty, during which they prospered politically, economically, and socially. It would make sense for them to send Thomas of Cana and perhaps a group of merchants to India to establish an Armenian economic presence and expand their network. Before and after the 9th century the Armenians seem to be in a state of constant conflict with their neighbors (Persians, Seljuk Turks, Islamic Caliphates). In my opinion why Knanaya show any Jewish heritage is because there may be some truth about the Knayim merging with the Knanaya.

bmoney
06-12-2018, 01:39 AM
In terms of Y-DNA, Armenians are 29% R1b, ~10% G, 10% J1 + J* and 8.5% T.

Q is at 0.2%

So it cant be the paternal side, as there is barely any Y-Dna overlap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Also, Syrian Christians also have this elevated Caucasus admixture compared to other Malayalis, but not at the level of the Knanaya

Thomas48
06-12-2018, 03:33 AM
In terms of Y-DNA, Armenians are 29% R1b, ~10% G, 10% J1 + J* and 8.5% T.

Q is at 0.2%

So it cant be the paternal side, as there is barely any Y-Dna overlap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Also, Syrian Christians also have this elevated Caucasus admixture compared to other Malayalis, but not at the level of the Knanaya

When I averaged the Syrian Christian rate it was around 4%, with many showing 3-4% and a few closer to 10%. The individuals closer to 10% could very well be the descendants of other East Syrians Christians who came to India or perhaps even the descendants of another mission after Thomas of Cana, known as the mission of Mar Sabor and Mar Proth. However isn’t the 3-4% average also a common theme among Upper-Caste Hindus? I know in the folk history of the Syrian Christians it is believed that the majority of them were the descendants from Upper-Caste Hindus and its definetly known that the Syrian Christians were considered high on the caste level throughout Keralas history.

Since I’m still fairly new to genetics please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t autosomal testing a better source to find the origins of an individuals line? The reason why I ask is because an individuals Y-DNA is simply one paternal ancestor out of hundreds, whereas autosomal testing show physical rates of an individuals ethnic makeup. Also how accurate are projects like Harappa World and FtDNA when defining these autosomal results and regions? On FtDNA all the Knanaya get their Middle Eastern rating from the Asia Minor region (modern day Turkey) but Harappa World defines this instead as Caucuses and SW Middle East.

bmoney
06-12-2018, 04:28 AM
When I averaged the Syrian Christian rate it was around 4%, with many showing 3-4% and a few closer to 10%. The individuals closer to 10% could very well be the descendants of other East Syrians Christians who came to India or perhaps even the descendants of another mission after Thomas of Cana, known as the mission of Mar Sabor and Mar Proth. However isn’t the 3-4% average also a common theme among Upper-Caste Hindus? I know in the folk history of the Syrian Christians it is believed that the majority of them were the descendants from Upper-Caste Hindus and its definetly known that the Syrian Christians were considered high on the caste level throughout Keralas history.

Since I’m still fairly new to genetics please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t autosomal testing a better source to find the origins of an individuals line? The reason why I ask is because an individuals Y-DNA is simply one paternal ancestor out of hundreds, whereas autosomal testing show physical rates of an individuals ethnic makeup. Also how accurate are projects like Harappa World and FtDNA when defining these autosomal results and regions? On FtDNA all the Knanaya get their Middle Eastern rating from the Asia Minor region (modern day Turkey) but Harappa World defines this instead as Caucuses and SW Middle East.

Yep autosomal is representative of the individuals ancestry. Both y-dna and mtdna is only one individual from thousands and as such are not representative beyond the ancestry of those chromosomes themselves.

However these y and mtdna markers do leave some information/clues about past migrations, for example elevated levels of R1a in Brahmins linking them to Iron-Age Indo-Aryan migration.

But the Knanaya seem to be South Asian in both y-dna and mtdna, though as you've shown their autosomal ancestry is quite different to the surrounding communities.

The best lead based on what ive seen here is either Q-related (Jewish subclade) paternal founders or matrilineal admixture into the Syrian Christian community (need to know mtdna % split to be sure).

Harappa cannot tell you the source of ancestry, it only labels components based on its frequency in modern test populations. For example 'Caucasian' markers are the most common in the world today in the reference Caucasus populations Zack Ajmal has used in his calculator. 'South India' means that in the world, those alleles/markers are most common in todays populations from 'South India'. However we can infer on how closely populations are related to each other based on differences in results.

Due to the Harappa scores you posted, the Knanaya are different to their surrounding populations, suggesting recent West Asian ancestry. The Caucasus component is high in West Asia. SW Asian or E African however is not that high in the Knanaya so the source is probably not Gulf-like, like in Hyderabadi Muslims of Yemeni descent. Where the ancestry came from we cannot say based on moderns calculators, we can only guess. My best bet would be deep testing the y-Q or non-M Mtdna related haplogroups to see which world population shares these specific markers of descent with the Knanaya.

Is there a more comprehensive Mtdna proportion figure for the Knanaya?

Thomas48
06-12-2018, 04:59 AM
Yep autosomal is representative of the individuals ancestry. Both y-dna and mtdna is only one individual from thousands and as such are not representative beyond the ancestry of those chromosomes themselves.

However these y and mtdna markers do leave some information/clues about past migrations, for example elevated levels of R1a in Brahmins linking them to Iron-Age Indo-Aryan migration.

But the Knanaya seem to be South Asian in both y-dna and mtdna, though as you've shown their autosomal ancestry is quite different to the surrounding communities.

The best lead based on what ive seen here is either Q-related (Jewish subclade) paternal founders or matrilineal admixture into the Syrian Christian community (need to know mtdna % split to be sure).

Harappa cannot tell you the source of ancestry, it only labels components based on its frequency in modern test populations. For example 'Caucasian' markers are the most common in the world today in the reference Caucasus populations Zack Ajmal has used in his calculator. 'South India' means that in the world, those alleles/markers are most common in todays populations from 'South India'. However we can infer on how closely populations are related to each other based on differences in results.

Due to the Harappa scores you posted, the Knanaya are different to their surrounding populations, suggesting recent West Asian ancestry. The Caucasus component is high in West Asia. SW Asian or E African however is not that high in the Knanaya so the source is probably not Gulf-like, like in Hyderabadi Muslims of Yemeni descent. Where the ancestry came from we cannot say based on moderns calculators, we can only guess. My best bet would be deep testing the y-Q or non-M Mtdna related haplogroups to see which world population shares these specific markers of descent with the Knanaya.

Is there a more comprehensive Mtdna proportion figure for the Knanaya?

Thanks! So far for MtDNA the majority of Knanaya are M33a2, with the exception of one who was U1a1c1d I believe.

Thomas48
06-13-2018, 03:56 PM
Heres another Knanaya Autosomal Sample I collected:

Population
S-Indian 45.69
Baloch 33.49
Caucasian 10.05
NE-Euro 3.52
SE-Asian 2.50
Papuan 0.33
SW-Asian 2.57
E-African 0.38

I removed all the null factors.

traject
06-13-2018, 07:42 PM
BMG can you do your global 25?

I'm interested in the ancients contribution to Syrian Christians. Maybe some Middle-Eastern adna can be discerned


I'm not BMG but I am also a Syrian Christian (not Knanaya) that did the Global25. If you're curious, I was modeled as:

[1] "distance%=2.8657"

traject_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,81.4
Yamnaya_Samara,6.2
Barcin_N,3.8
Natufian,3
Han,2
Ganj_Dareh_N,1.8
WHG,1
Clovis,0.8


For comparison, Harrapan:

1 S-Indian 48.39
2 Baloch 36.77
3 Caucasian 4.04
4 NE-Euro 2.86
5 NE-Asian 2.12
6 Mediterranean 1.86
7 SW-Asian 1.52
8 American 1.39
9 SE-Asian 0.86
10 E-African 0.19

bmoney
06-13-2018, 11:32 PM
I'm not BMG but I am also a Syrian Christian (not Knanaya) that did the Global25. If you're curious, I was modeled as:

[1] "distance%=2.8657"

traject_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,81.4
Yamnaya_Samara,6.2
Barcin_N,3.8
Natufian,3
Han,2
Ganj_Dareh_N,1.8
WHG,1
Clovis,0.8


For comparison, Harrapan:

1 S-Indian 48.39
2 Baloch 36.77
3 Caucasian 4.04
4 NE-Euro 2.86
5 NE-Asian 2.12
6 Mediterranean 1.86
7 SW-Asian 1.52
8 American 1.39
9 SE-Asian 0.86
10 E-African 0.19

Thanks!

Nothing stands out beyond the Barcin and Natufian which could represent some form of West Asian ancestry

What are your uniparental markers?

traject
06-14-2018, 12:52 AM
Thanks!

Nothing stands out beyond the Barcin and Natufian which could represent some form of West Asian ancestry

What are your uniparental markers?

Y-DNA: L1a1
mtDNA: M6

EDIT: When running nMonte mixes with the Global25, I did notice that Yemenite Jew was a preferred source for Middle Eastern admixture (preferred over other Middle Eastern sources like Iraqi Jew) but I'm not sure if that is valid with regard to the Global25 model.

bmoney
06-14-2018, 01:48 AM
Y-DNA: L1a1
mtDNA: M6

EDIT: When running nMonte mixes with the Global25, I did notice that Yemenite Jew was a preferred source for Middle Eastern admixture (preferred over other Middle Eastern sources like Iraqi Jew) but I'm not sure if that is valid with regard to the Global25 model.

you have a bit of E African which I haven't seen too often, and a good level of med which is disproportionate to your NE Euro. In Indo-Aryan types, their NE Euro is much higher than their Med.

Your SW Asian to NE Euro level is also high.

So yeah diluted SW Asian (Yemeni) ancestry is certainly plausible

bmoney
06-14-2018, 02:19 AM
Y-DNA: L1a1
mtDNA: M6

EDIT: When running nMonte mixes with the Global25, I did notice that Yemenite Jew was a preferred source for Middle Eastern admixture (preferred over other Middle Eastern sources like Iraqi Jew) but I'm not sure if that is valid with regard to the Global25 model.

Can you also send your co-ordinates to @poi to model and include in the PCA

We need more representation from non-NW South Asian pops lol

Since we are more closely related to the bulk of the South Asian population

Rustyshakelford
06-14-2018, 10:59 AM
Heres another Knanaya Autosomal Sample I collected:

Population
S-Indian 45.69
Baloch 33.49
Caucasian 10.05
NE-Euro 3.52
SE-Asian 2.50
Papuan 0.33
SW-Asian 2.57
E-African 0.38

I removed all the null factors.

Do any of the other samples have NE euro? I felt like it was absent in the rest.

Thomas48
06-14-2018, 04:16 PM
Do any of the other samples have NE euro? I felt like it was absent in the rest.

In many it was absent but some had on average about 1.5, this sample is elevated. I also have one more sample that just came in from FTDNA, it matches the other Knanaya with a high Middle Eastern rating and especially matches the Knanaya woman who shows 20% but I can't run the harrappa just yet due to technical issues at FTDNA. Ill share the results when the issue is solved. This sample would however make it the 19th to show the average 15% Middle Eastern rating among the Knanaya. I noticed that the Knanaya who show elevated NE Euro on Harappa also showed elevated Ashkenazi percentages on FTDNA. With this being said I'm certain there will be Knanaya who show no genetic ties to the Middle East at all and this seems to be because of the origins of endogamy among this ethnic-group. In my opinion and the opinion of other Knanaya researchers, the Knanaya were originally exogamous but became endogamous after this battle at Kodungalloor recorded in their folk lore. Most likely the Knanaya became a closed community after this tragic event had destroyed everything they had and forced them to move to the interior. It would be logical to assume that it was at this point the Knanaya formed themselves into this endogamous ethnic identity in order to preserve what was left of their community and culture.

Thomas48
06-14-2018, 08:52 PM
Issue at FTDNA was fixed, here are the results of the Knanaya I mentioned earlier. Following the same pattern as the others (Removed the null results).

Knanaya #19:

Population
S-Indian 44.79
Baloch 35.74
Caucasian 9.01
NE-Euro 0.79
SE-Asian 2.15
Siberian 2.29
Papuan 0.84
American 0.62
Beringian 0.27
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 3.46

BMG
06-16-2018, 12:46 AM
I'm not BMG but I am also a Syrian Christian (not Knanaya) that did the Global25. If you're curious, I was modeled as:

[1] "distance%=2.8657"

traject_scaled

Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,81.4
Yamnaya_Samara,6.2
Barcin_N,3.8
Natufian,3
Han,2
Ganj_Dareh_N,1.8
WHG,1
Clovis,0.8


For comparison, Harrapan:

1 S-Indian 48.39
2 Baloch 36.77
3 Caucasian 4.04
4 NE-Euro 2.86
5 NE-Asian 2.12
6 Mediterranean 1.86
7 SW-Asian 1.52
8 American 1.39
9 SE-Asian 0.86
10 E-African 0.19

Can you tell from which parts are your grandparents from . Your harappadna scores are very similar to mine

bmoney
06-16-2018, 01:55 AM
Issue at FTDNA was fixed, here are the results of the Knanaya I mentioned earlier. Following the same pattern as the others (Removed the null results).

Knanaya #19:

Population
S-Indian 44.79
Baloch 35.74
Caucasian 9.01
NE-Euro 0.79
SE-Asian 2.15
Siberian 2.29
Papuan 0.84
American 0.62
Beringian 0.27
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 3.46

Yeah some West Asian mix into a high-caste/position pre-Brahmin/pre-Hindu Kerala genetic base\

Syrian Christians with a similar pattern though with more NE Euro coming through possibly due to more post-Hindu Kerala admixture or converts and obv less West Asian overall

BMG
06-16-2018, 03:09 AM
Yeah some West Asian mix into a high-caste/position pre-Brahmin/pre-Hindu Kerala genetic base\

Syrian Christians with a similar pattern though with more NE Euro coming through possibly due to more post-Hindu Kerala admixture or converts and obv less West Asian overall
The Ne-euro could be from pre brahmanic elite too as the jains and Buddhists have ultimately origins in northern India .
Also what do you think of origins of 2nd chera dynasty the kulasekharas . I think by their time the Kerala identity has taken place as one of the king's had taken the name of veera keralavarma .I also think they came from north and have taken the identity of the earlier chera dynasty to assert their contention as the rulers.

bmoney
06-16-2018, 03:28 AM
The Ne-euro could be from pre brahmanic elite too as the jains and Buddhists have ultimately origins in northern India .
Also what do you think of origins of 2nd chera dynasty the kulasekharas . I think by their time the Kerala identity has taken place as one of the king's had taken the name of veera keralavarma .I also think they came from north and have taken the identity of the earlier chera dynasty to assert their contention as the rulers.

Thats true though the Agamic and Shramana traditions are less y-dna or genetic based compared to Nambudiri Vedic Hinduism.

Yeah second Chera is when the Nairs started coming onto the scene

This a guy who used to leave interesting rambling comments on wiki talk pages, he might be onto something due to the genetic evidence now coming to light:

Accoding to Keralolpathi the Namboothiris of Perunchellur (Thaliparamba) went and met the Aryan king of Arya pura and requested him to send a Cheraman Perumal to rule over Kerala.Krishna Raya send a Banapperuamal alias Vani Perumal with large army of Nairs, 350000 strong, led by Pada Mala Nair as General. The Banapperumal according to Keralolpathi defeated Kerala and started ruling as Cheraman Perumal contesting the original Tamil Cheraman Perumal from his capital at Chitra Koodam at Mooshaka kingdom,later Kolathunadu. This Banapperumal promoted Matriarchy in Kerala and he was the brother of the Tulunad king Kavi Rasa Singha according to Keralolpathi. Keralolpathi also states that Kolathiris are the descendents of this usurping Cheraman perumal from Karnataka.The Cochin kings descend from the offspring of a Kshatriya girl brought from North by the Banapperumal who married a Brahmin. Keralolpathi also states that Krishna Rayar was disturbed when the Banapperumal who was send as a Regent did not return even after 36 years of rule of Kerala. But Banapperumal the pretending Cheraman Perumal gathered an army supported by Manichan (Kunnala Konathiri, the king of Calicut) and Vikkiran possibly two Vellala rulers of Northen Kerala managed to resist the army of Krishna Raya (Rashtrakuta). Keralolpathi also says that the Banapperumal who was a Buddhist converted to Islam and went to Mecca under the guidance of Veda Aliyar a Jonaka(Turkish) preacher. The Krishna Raya could be Rashtra kuta king Krishna III(939 - 967 C.E.) who defeated and occupied Kerala.

In short Around 960 ACE the Namboothiris staying at Thaliparamba in the Chera kingdom invited a Rashtrakuta invading force under a Banapperumal, a prince from Banavasi where originally Brahmins settled on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 ACE. Namboothiris perhaps betrayed the trust of the Tamil Chera kings by inviting a foreign invader.
960 ACE could be the date of the beginning of Namboothiri power in Kerala. It could be the beginning of Matriarchy, Naga and Aryan dominance of Kerala.Matriarchy perhaps spread from Kolathunadu to other southern kingdoms around 1300 ACE as the Nairs replaced the existing Tamil kingdoms of Kerala.
Since Keralolapathi says that Nair army under Padamala Nair was send by the Aryan king of Aryapura (Rashtrakuta Krishna 3)Keralolpathi affirms that Nairs arrived Kerala from north at around 960 ACE. Nairs who might have stayed predominantly at Ezhimalai and Koalathunadu area for another 100 years before spreading southwards. By 1100 ACE Matriarchy was adopted by the Mooshaka kings (Sanskritised name Ezhimalai the Rat Kingdom)of North Kerala.
The importance given by Keralolpathi to Ezhimalai and Kolathunadu clearly indicates that it was the first kingdom occupied by Northern forces of Nairs possibly a subgroup of Bunts of Karnataka.
Keralolpathi describes Chera kings as Arya Kshatriyas and not Tamils indicating that the Cheraman Perumal mentioned in the Keralolpathi is not real Cheraman Perumal of Chera dynasty of Villavar Tamil ruler but the pretending Rashtrakuta invader the Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal the ruler of Kolathunadu
12:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Keralolpathi is Tuluvolpathi
Keralolpathi is the history of Tulu people the Bunt (community) and Aryan Brahmins from Ahichatra and not the history of Dravidian people of Kerala who descend from Chera Dynasty. The Naga people (Nairs/Bunt (community) and the Namboothiris originally a subgroup of Tuluva Brahmins) who who might have invaded Kerala at the end of Tamil Chera Dynasty of Villavar people. Keralolpathi describes the history of Nair/Bunt (community)s and Tuluva Brahmins (Namboothiris and Shivalli Brahmins) and their migration from Indo-Nepalese border to Karnataka during the rule of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 AD.Similar accounts are found in Gramapaddati,the records kept by Tulu Brahmins of Karnataka.Keralolpathi claims that a Tulunadu invader brother of Tulunadu king Kavirajasinghan send by Krishnarayar,Krishna III (939 – 967 C.E.) of the the Rashtrakuta Dynasty invaded Kerala with 350000 strong Nair army led by Padamala Nair.This Rashtrakuta invader, addressed as Cheraman Perumal/Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal(not to be confused with Tamil kings of Chera Dynasty) sent by Krishnarayar according to Keralolpathi established a kingdom at the Northern Kerala at Valarpattanam (Valapattam near Kannur) with Muslim help.Padamala Nair the General of the Tulu Cheraman Perumal advised the Cheraman Perumal to seek the help of Jonakas. This Cherman Perumal converted to Islam by a Jonaka called Veda Aliyar and left for Mecca for Pilgrimage according to Keralolpathi.Keralolpathi also mentions that the Tulu Cheraman Perumal of Valapattam was alternatively called as Ezhibooban (King of Ezhimala-Kannur) and Kolathiris were his descendents.Keralolpathi also states that this Tulu Cheraman Perumal founded Matriarchy, a North Indian Naga custom in Kerala till then practised by Tulunadus Bunt (community) (with its subgroups Nayara,Menavas,Kurubas and Samanthas).Keralolpathi never mentions the name of any Tamil king of Chera dynasty but uses the title Cheraman Perumal to all the rulers of Tulunadu.The Cheraman Perumal belonged to only the Villavar rulers of Chera Dynasty of Kerala and tinvaders from foreign countries were not called Cheraman Perumal. Gokarnam in the Uttara Kannada district the original homeland of Tulubrahmins after their arrival from Ahichatram is mentioned as a integral part of Kerala.However though Kerala was briefly occupied by various Karnataka rulers only Tamil Chera Dynasty ruled Kerala till 1100 AD and they practised Patrilineal descendency. Matriarchy practised by the Nagas of Karnataka,(Bunt (community)) reached only after the fall of Chera Kingdom. But after the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310, all the Tamil Patriarchal Tamil dynasties of Kerala were replaced by Tulu dynastes of Bunt (community) who practised Matriarchy and wrote with Tulu Script.

Both Keralolpathy and Karnataka accounts of Kadamba king Mayuravarma say that Bunt of Karnataka and Nairs are the Kshatriyas, who accompanied the Brahmins (Namboothiris,Pottis and Shivalli Brahmins) as slaves from Ahichatra the Naga kingdom. Mayuravarma brought them from Uttarpradesh/Uttarkhand at the Indo Nepalese border in the year 345 ad to Banavasi his capital. Naga Scythians were considered untouchables by the Aryans since atleast 2000 yrs. Nairs though fair are ethnically identical to the North Indian Nagas who form bulk of the Kshatriya population of North India. The Non Dravidian Kshatriya north Indian origins of Nairs should be included in the article.

Interestingly most of my North Indian ancestry most resembles the Naga? UP agriculturalists using nmonte

"distance%=2.0595"

Bmoney

Kanjar,51.7
Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu,16.7
Iran_LN,9.3
Brahmin_Gujarat,8.8
Dusadh,5.3
Yadava,4.9
Brahmin,2.2
ASI_Sim_Final,1.1

I haven't seen any Malayalis with my mtdna clade, and its common in the Tharu peoples of the Indo-Nepalese border


Haplogroup M30 - mainly in India, found in Middle East and North Africa.
Subclade - Haplogroup M18'38
Haplogroup M18 - found among Tharus in southern Nepal and tribal people in Andhra Pradesh[48]
Haplogroup M38 - found with high frequency among Tharus from Morang District of southeastern Nepal and as singletons among Tharus from Chitwan District of south-central Nepal and Hindus from New Delhi[48]

bmoney
06-16-2018, 04:40 AM
So basically the original Cheras were Tamil Ezhava Agamic type. Villava/Ay kingdoms etc

Second Cheras are a different pop (Rashtrakuta related) who adopted the name (for legitimacy? as you suggested) and replaced the first.

The wave of this migration was north to south, with most southern aristocrats coming from the north? Notice how Kanyakumari is still Tamil

Brahmins and/or their Nair slaves introduced around this time, Tigalari script of Tulu Nadu (offshoot became Malayalam script) and the language of Kerala changes from Western Tamil to Malayalam (with Sanskrit introduced here)

Whats odd is the lack of Prakrit influence which is expected if the Brahmins came from Ahikshetra. Its all Sanskrit in Malayalam if I'm not wrong. Actually this is common to all Southern Brahmins.

Anyway this scenario matches Ezhava folklore which claims that they were once kings

traject
06-16-2018, 04:49 AM
Can you tell from which parts are your grandparents from . Your harappadna scores are very similar to mine

On my paternal side, my grandparents are from the Meenachil taluk while my maternal grandfather is from Changanasserry while my maternal grandmother is from the southern region around Kanjirapally; all in Kottayam as you can tell.

BMG
06-16-2018, 05:10 AM
On my paternal side, my grandparents are from the Meenachil taluk while my maternal grandfather is from Changanasserry while my maternal grandmother is from the southern region around Kanjirapally; all in Kottayam as you can tell.
Most of my ancestors are from southern parts of allapuzha district like harippad,mavelikkara and chengannur .My maternal grandfather's family is from Ranni .

BMG
06-16-2018, 05:39 AM
So basically the original Cheras were Tamil Ezhava Agamic type. Villava/Ay kingdoms etc

Second Cheras are a different pop (Rashtrakuta related) who adopted the name (for legitimacy? as you suggested) and replaced the first.

The wave of this migration was north to south, with most southern aristocrats coming from the north? Notice how Kanyakumari is still Tamil

Brahmins and/or their Nair slaves introduced around this time, Tigalari script of Tulu Nadu (offshoot became Malayalam script) and the language of Kerala changes from Western Tamil to Malayalam (with Sanskrit introduced here)

Whats odd is the lack of Prakrit influence which is expected if the Brahmins came from Ahikshetra. Its all Sanskrit in Malayalam if I'm not wrong. Actually this is common to all Southern Brahmins.

Anyway this scenario matches Ezhava folklore which claims that they were once kings

The 1st cheras were mostly followed Jainism / Dravidian religions . The famous poet ilango adigal is said to be a chera Prince and a Jain . By the time of beginning of 2nd cheras Buddhism and Jainism was still the main religions . Only after a few generations they seem to adopt brahmanical Hinduism . I also lean towards them being descended from Western rashtrakutas elites . Even the kalabhras seem to be a vassal of rashtrakutas .

Both ahichattra and parasurama stories are common among many Brahmin groups in southwestern India along with Nairs and bunts . Only the king's invited them and places of settlement varies . So all may be referring to same event which then got changed according to local requirements .

I think most of the Sanskrit influenced Malayalam words also have a prakrit form which is more prominent in vernacular dialects than standard literary Malayalam .These words might have originally introduced during Buddhist /Jain periods .

Rustyshakelford
06-17-2018, 10:37 AM
Yeah some West Asian mix into a high-caste/position pre-Brahmin/pre-Hindu Kerala genetic base\

Syrian Christians with a similar pattern though with more NE Euro coming through possibly due to more post-Hindu Kerala admixture or converts and obv less West Asian overall

So would that mean that the West Asian admix happened in pre-Hindu kerala?
Some Syrian Christian families in kollam, I think those with surname Ďmuthalalyí, claim relatively recent West Asian ancestry (9th/10th century). Really curious to see autosomal results of someone from one of these families, anybody know of any?

BMG
06-17-2018, 11:12 AM
So would that mean that the West Asian admix happened in pre-Hindu kerala?
Some Syrian Christian families in kollam, I think those with surname ‘muthalaly’, claim relatively recent West Asian ancestry (9th/10th century). Really curious to see autosomal results of someone from one of these families, anybody know of any?
One of my gedmatch match is a muthalaly .His harappa results are below
# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 49.06
2 Baloch 34.8
3 Caucasian 6.04
4 NE-Euro 3.66
5 SW-Asian 2.96
6 NE-Asian 1.84
7 Papuan 0.76
8 Beringian 0.73
9 SE-Asian 0.12
10 San 0.03

bmoney
06-17-2018, 12:58 PM
So would that mean that the West Asian admix happened in pre-Hindu kerala?
Some Syrian Christian families in kollam, I think those with surname ‘muthalaly’, claim relatively recent West Asian ancestry (9th/10th century). Really curious to see autosomal results of someone from one of these families, anybody know of any?

Yeah probably. When did the Knanaya first arrive?

If we were to assume a presence just before the Second Chera dynasty, that would put the Hindu/Nambudiri power transition as starting at or around the 9th century AD and completing later

bmoney
06-17-2018, 12:58 PM
One of my gedmatch match is a muthalaly .His harappa results are below
# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 49.06
2 Baloch 34.8
3 Caucasian 6.04
4 NE-Euro 3.66
5 SW-Asian 2.96
6 NE-Asian 1.84
7 Papuan 0.76
8 Beringian 0.73
9 SE-Asian 0.12
10 San 0.03

This guy scores like you BMG

Maybe an extra serving of SW Asian?

BMG
06-17-2018, 01:18 PM
This guy scores like you BMG

Maybe an extra serving of SW Asian?
Yeah he scores similar to me . He shares my mtdna too . I know few members of muthalaly family who is in my church . They have not heard about any recent west asian origins regarding their family . May be there are more than one family using the same title

Rustyshakelford
06-18-2018, 04:22 AM
Yeah he scores similar to me . He shares my mtdna too . I know few members of muthalaly family who is in my church . They have not heard about any recent west asian origins regarding their family . May be there are more than one family using the same title

I donít know any personally as Iím from central kerala, this is just something Iíve heard on online forums. The migration of Persian families along with two bishops to kollam in the 9th/10th century is included in church histories and I believe some families in kollam claim origins through this migration, although they donít maintain any sort of seperate identity the way the Knanaya do.

Rustyshakelford
06-18-2018, 04:25 AM
Yeah probably. When did the Knanaya first arrive?

If we were to assume a presence just before the Second Chera dynasty, that would put the Hindu/Nambudiri power transition as starting at or around the 9th century AD and completing later

Allegedly in the 4th century according to folk tradition but there are other early sources that give more recent dates (8th,9th,10th centuries)

Thomas48
06-22-2018, 11:37 PM
I entered my raw autosomal dna into another platform on GedMatch called "EuroGenes". It presented my results as the following:


Population

Baltic 0.65
West_Asian 28.27
East_Med 5.28
Red_Sea 2.38
South_Asian 59.28
East_Asian 1.33
Amerindian 0.90
Oceanian 0.87
Northeast_African 1.05

BMG
06-23-2018, 06:00 PM
I entered my raw autosomal dna into another platform on GedMatch called "EuroGenes". It presented my results as the following:


Population

Baltic 0.65
West_Asian 28.27
East_Med 5.28
Red_Sea 2.38
South_Asian 59.28
East_Asian 1.33
Amerindian 0.90
Oceanian 0.87
Northeast_African 1.05
Can you post jtest and EUtestV2 calc results in eurogenes

Thomas48
06-24-2018, 05:12 AM
Can you post jtest and EUtestV2 calc results in eurogenes

Sure this is from the Jtest:
Population
EAST_EURO 5.56
ATLANTIC 0.45
ASHKENAZI 1.41
EAST_MED 5.74
WEST_ASIAN 18.85
MIDDLE_EASTERN 2.33
SOUTH_ASIAN 63.22
EAST_AFRICAN 0.29
EAST_ASIAN 1.99
WEST_AFRICAN 0.17

EUTest V2k15:

Population
Atlantic 0.54
Eastern_Euro 4.98
West_Asian 20.01
East_Med 6.46
Red_Sea 2.27
South_Asian 62.25
Southeast_Asian 0.93
Amerindian 0.77
Oceanian 0.81
Northeast_African 0.92
Sub-Saharan 0.07

For both of the platforms above I removed the null results.

BMG
06-24-2018, 05:33 AM
Sure this is from the Jtest:
Population
EAST_EURO 5.56
ATLANTIC 0.45
ASHKENAZI 1.41
EAST_MED 5.74
WEST_ASIAN 18.85
MIDDLE_EASTERN 2.33
SOUTH_ASIAN 63.22
EAST_AFRICAN 0.29
EAST_ASIAN 1.99
WEST_AFRICAN 0.17

EUTest V2k15:

Population
Atlantic 0.54
Eastern_Euro 4.98
West_Asian 20.01
East_Med 6.46
Red_Sea 2.27
South_Asian 62.25
Southeast_Asian 0.93
Amerindian 0.77
Oceanian 0.81
Northeast_African 0.92
Sub-Saharan 0.07

For both of the platforms above I removed the null results.
Mine for comparison
Jtest
1 SOUTH_ASIAN 70.31
2 WEST_ASIAN 14.76
3 EAST_EURO 4.66
4 EAST_MED 3.67
5 SIBERIAN 2.14
6 SOUTH_BALTIC 1.44
7 MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.03
8 EAST_ASIAN 1
9 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 0.89
10 WEST_AFRICAN 0.1

EUtestV2
1 South_Asian 66.54
2 West_Asian 16.89
3 Eastern_Euro 3.67
4 East_Med 2.53
5 West_Med 2.02
6 Baltic 1.85
7 Southeast_Asian 1.78
8 Siberian 1.43
9 Oceanian 1.35
10 Amerindian 1.15
11 Red_Sea 0.38
12 Atlantic 0.24
13 Sub-Saharan 0.13
14 North_Sea 0.03

bmoney
06-24-2018, 01:37 PM
Mine (23andme V5)

Jtest
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_ASIAN 65.35
2 WEST_ASIAN 18.21
3 EAST_EURO 9.53
4 ATLANTIC 2.09
5 EAST_MED 1.60

V2 K15
# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 64.00
2 West_Asian 19.02
3 Eastern_Euro 6.98
4 Atlantic 6.16
5 Northeast_African 2.03

Thomas48
06-27-2018, 06:21 PM
Knanaya 21:

Harappa:
Population
S-Indian 43.68
Baloch 37.15
Caucasian 8.60
NE-Euro 1.89
Siberian 0.55
NE-Asian 1.65
Papuan 0.76
American 0.86
SW-Asian 4.44
E-African 0.39

Rustyshakelford
06-27-2018, 08:00 PM
Knanaya 21:

Harappa:
Population
S-Indian 43.68
Baloch 37.15
Caucasian 8.60
NE-Euro 1.89
Siberian 0.55
NE-Asian 1.65
Papuan 0.76
American 0.86
SW-Asian 4.44
E-African 0.39

Why does it feel like Caucasian and Sw-Asian have an inverse relationship? I notice for the Knanaya samples, that the lower the Caucasian the higher the Sw-Asian and vice-versa. Anybody know why this is and is it just a quirk with the Harappa algorithm?

bmoney
06-28-2018, 02:54 AM
Why does it feel like Caucasian and Sw-Asian have an inverse relationship? I notice for the Knanaya samples, that the lower the Caucasian the higher the Sw-Asian and vice-versa. Anybody know why this is and is it just a quirk with the Harappa algorithm?

Its not universal, so not a quirk. Caucasian is Iran_N/CHG related, SW Asian I assume would be Natufian related.

Both are highly diverged

bmoney
06-28-2018, 02:58 AM
Razibs latest post, ive selected the Kerala related bits:

Finally some odds & ends. The Nasrani samples from Kerala are between the South Indian Brahmins and middle caste South Indians. I suspect this is due to the origin of the Nasranis in the Nair community, who have mixed some with Brahmins.

Thomas48
06-28-2018, 06:30 PM
Razibs latest post, ive selected the Kerala related bits:

Finally some odds & ends. The Nasrani samples from Kerala are between the South Indian Brahmins and middle caste South Indians. I suspect this is due to the origin of the Nasranis in the Nair community, who have mixed some with Brahmins.

Yes this is very likely. Even numerous early colonial records state the Nasrani converted Nairs daily to the faith. This was the big difference the Europeans noticed between the Nasrani and the Knanaya, the Knanaya refused to convert people.

Thomas48
06-29-2018, 09:13 PM
Knanaya 22:

Population
S-Indian 46.59
Baloch 33.89
Caucasian 9.66
NE-Euro 1.39
SE-Asian 1.42
NE-Asian 1.87
Papuan 0.56
American 0.41
SW-Asian 4.19

jgeorge2818
06-30-2018, 04:00 AM
here's my GEDmatch results
South Indian 49.6
Baloch 36.6
Caucasian 5.1
SW Asian 2.8
NE Euro 1.6
SE Asian 1%

I'm Marthomite from Pathanamthitta district, kerala, India

bmoney
06-30-2018, 04:53 AM
here's my GEDmatch results
South Indian 49.6
Baloch 36.6
Caucasian 5.1
SW Asian 2.8
NE Euro 1.6
SE Asian 1%

I'm Marthomite from Pathanamthitta district, kerala, India

A more typical Syrian Christian result judging by SW Asian + Caucasian to NE Euro ratio.

I don't think theres a Nair conversion in this case or if there was it was one of many ancestors. @BMG Dad would score different

BMG
07-01-2018, 02:32 AM
A more typical Syrian Christian result judging by SW Asian + Caucasian to NE Euro ratio.

I don't think theres a Nair conversion in this case or if there was it was one of many ancestors. @BMG Dad would score different
I think Syrian christians have been converted from all different castes from brahmins to scheduled castes . I think we represent the average of the kerala poulation .If the caste system had been abolished long ago everybody have scored similar.
By the way my maternal grandmother's mtdna is J1b1a1 . We also know the Ydna since a related family have tested .It is C5a . My paternal grandfather's mtdna assigned by 23&me is plain HV.