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#YoloSwag
07-22-2014, 11:10 AM
Is it is Asia or Africa? Some say it is in Asia but considering the fact that E is so widespread in Africa unlike in Asia, I pretty much doubt it. What are your thoughts based on recent scientific papers?

yxc
07-22-2014, 12:06 PM
where DE was and DE* men were everywhere inbetween west africa and Jungle South(East)-Asia .

yxc
07-22-2014, 12:31 PM
E must had been developed at Levant I think. whole african continent maybe was still A00 in west Africa and A , B haplogroups until 35,000y BP or so.

ZephyrousMandaru
07-22-2014, 04:52 PM
E may be one of those uniparental markers that's associated with the dispersal of the "Basal Eurasian" component. It's possible that E originated outside of Africa, but given its diversity in Africa, I doubt that it did. Even if it did, these E carriers in all likelihood probably still resembled the Africans they branched off from.

palamede
07-25-2014, 03:54 PM
E may be one of those uniparental markers that's associated with the dispersal of the "Basal Eurasian" component. It's possible that E originated outside of Africa, but given its diversity in Africa, I doubt that it did. Even if it did, these E carriers in all likelihood probably still resembled the Africans they branched off from.

Diversity of E in African can prove this haplogroup has been developing in Africa since dozens of thousand years, but this doesn't prove the first bearer of the basal mutation of E lived in Africa, but if he was not, the E branches were obliged to coame back into Africa, maybe due to a great droughness in Near East and Arabian Peninsula in the first pleniglacial (75,000-60,000BP) or even sooner.

Passa
11-03-2014, 02:43 PM
I think that it originated in Asia, somewhere between Anatolia and the Arabian Peninsula. The frequency of the E* paragroup is highest in Saudi Arabia (1.3%; Abu Amero et al. 2009 http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-10-59.pdf). There's also 1.3% of E*(xM33,M35,M2) in Antalya (Serdar et al. 2009 http://www.rjlm.ro/doc/08-y-snphaplogroupsintheantalyapopulation.pdf) and in Lebanon and Syria. It could be either E-M96*, E-P2* or E-M215*.

Isidro
11-15-2014, 12:56 AM
I don't know too much about E but this looks interesting:
Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html

palamede
11-15-2014, 09:30 AM
To be removed.

palamede
11-15-2014, 09:41 AM
I don't know too much about E but this looks interesting:
Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html

Original paper because it is due to 2 African scholars :one Soudanese and one Erythrean with detailed analysis I cannot judge but why do they write

"Most Y-chromosome haplogroup diversity in Africa, however, is present within macrohaplogroup E that seem to have appeared 21 000–32 000 YBP somewhere between the Red Sea and Lake Chad."

- "Macrohaplogroup E" is made up of the unique but enormous haplogroup E which represents 80 to 90% of the whole population of Africa plus some overflowings in Asia, Europe and colonial America.

- "somewhere between the Red Sea and Lake Chad" : This is possible, although discussed for a birth of E in South West Asia, see some above posts.

- "that seem to have appeared 21 000–32 000 YBP" : Rare are those who favour a so late datation. Generally the lowest datations of hg E are twice older. Only the lowest datations of North-African E1b1b1-M35.1 and its main sub-branchs like E-M123, E_M78, E-M81, .... are in this datation range.

Addendum : Or I misunderstood and it is "Most Y-chromosome haplogroup diversity" which dates from 21 000–32 000 YBP

Farroukh
11-17-2014, 10:57 AM
I have several objections.
1) Haplogroup E seems to have appeared more than 60 KYBP
2) Haplogroup E more related to Niger-Congo languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger%E2%80%93Congo_languages), than Afro-Asiatic languages. (Afro-Asiatic protolanguage origins from Eurasia and therefore more related to R1b1c-V88)

Agamemnon
11-17-2014, 10:35 PM
I have several objections.
1) Haplogroup E seems to have appeared more than 60 KYBP
2) Haplogroup E more related to Niger-Congo languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger%E2%80%93Congo_languages), than Afro-Asiatic languages. (Afro-Asiatic protolanguage origins from Eurasia and therefore more related to R1b1c-V88)

^^ Not necessarily.

Farroukh
11-18-2014, 06:47 AM
All that posts are just opinions, not dogma.

zulkif
11-19-2014, 04:03 PM
According to this diagram the move out of Africa was ages before the development of E and its sibling D in Asia.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/Y-DNA-tree.png

The percentages below each letter show the part of the world population belonging to that group in percentages.

Passa
12-24-2014, 06:01 PM
Haplogroup E is Eurasian, and there is strong evidence to support this.
1) There is widespread ancient Eurasian admixture in the Horn of Africa dating back more than 20.000 years ago http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004393
Much of this Eurasian admixture is made up of the Ethio-Somali component. This component is closest to the Maghrebi component (also Eurasian; see the study), from which it separated more than 30.000 years ago. E-M215* (which has been found only in Eurasia) is ca. 26 ky old, so it is a very good candidate as Paleolithic Levantine immigrant into the Horn of Africa. Haplogroups such as J1 and T, present in Horn of Africa populations, are not good candidates because, among other reasons, their presence there is in most part attributable to downstream sub-clades
2) There is widespread low-frequency ancient Eurasian admixture in West Africa and Central Africa. A new study (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13997.html) has confirmed that West Africans possess Eurasian admixture. Previous studies (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12886-s1.pdf*- Supplementary Information 13) reported the finding of West Eurasian+Altai Neanderthal admixture among Yoruba and, to a lesser extent, Mbuti Pygmies. The first study dates this admixture event at 7.5-10.5 kya, the second assumes an admixture event within the last 10 millennia. Another new study (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/11/26/molbev.msu327.abstract) estimates the TMRCA of E1b1a-M2, the main haplogroup among West and Central Africans, at 6.9 kya or, with a correction factor of 1.5 (due to aDNA calibration), 11.1 kya. This agrees perfectly with the assumed date of Eurasian admixture.*
It is important to note that Yoruba and Mbuti Pygmies do not possess any "Eurasian" mtDNA or Y-DNA, apart from E1b1a-M2 and B-M60.
I interpret this in the following way:

1) The founding male West African population was predominantly B-M60
2) ca. 10 kya males carrying E1b1a-M2 were absorbed into the West African population
3) These E1b1a-M2-carriers heavily admixed with the aboriginal West Africans, so their Eurasian admixture became very low after a few generations

We can also reconstruct the specific type of Eurasian admixture. The second study lists the following populations as surrogates for the Eurasian admixture among Yoruba:

75% French, Sardinian, Italian,
Orcadian, Tuscan, Adygei = Mediterranean admixture
38% Brahui, Balochi, Hazara, Makrani, Sindhi, Pathan,
Kalash, Burusho = Central Asian admixture
33% Druze = Southwest Asian admixture

This means that the Eurasian admixture detected among West/Central Africans is closest to the major component among French, Sardinian, Italian, Orcadian, Tuscan and Adygei populations, that is, the Mediterranean component.

All this evidence somewhat supports the Eurasian origin hypothesis of Y-DNA E

zulkif
12-29-2014, 07:55 AM
I do not know who made this picture below but it looks like a map suggesting the origin of the haplogroups.

3299

parasar
12-29-2014, 05:47 PM
While we do not know where E* originated, it looks almost certain that whether in Africa or elsewhere the early splits (above E,C,F in figure below) are so close in time that they must have occurred in close geographical proximity too.

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/24/3/535.full

a single mutation (branch 37 in Supplemental Fig. S2), which is phylogenetically equivalent to P143, defines a sister clade of E comprising haplogroups F and C...

In the first one, the exit of carriers of a precursor of haplogroup E-F occurred anytime between 114.8 and 85.5 kya (overall window 145 to 65 kya, corresponding to the length of branch 35 and CIs of its defining nodes) (see Supplemental Figs. S2, S4), followed by the diversification of E-F in Eurasia. This scenario requires the re-entry of a single lineage (haplogroup E) in Africa, as originally proposed by Hammer et al. (1998)...

In the second scenario, the node basal to E-F originated in Africa and the exit of a precursor of C-F took place between 85.5 and 83.5 kya (overall window 108–64 kya, corresponding to the length of branch 37 and CIs of its defining nodes) (see Supplemental Figs. S2, S4), together or separately from E, and followed by the extinction of the early C-F in Africa...

In the third scenario, three or more lineages left Africa after 83.5 kya; this would require the not remote possibility that multiple lineages went extinct or are yet to be found in Africa.


To me the first scenario looks the most likely.

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/24/3/535/F2.large.jpg

ADW_1981
12-29-2014, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure why there are some who are bound and determined to make E "Eurasian" or as being as the signal for some sort of back migration. R-V88 and J-P58 are more likely a back migration to Africa from Eurasia, in particular the former, where as E in general seems to have gradually expanded northwards over a long period of time. I have yet to see evidence that branches of E in Iran, Turkey, or Southern Europe headed southwards once they arrived to their current location. To the best of my knowledge, the phylogeny doesn't support it, but R-V88 very much supports it, and J-P58 arguably as well.

parasar
12-29-2014, 06:33 PM
I'm not sure why there are some who are bound and determined to make E "Eurasian" or as being as the signal for some sort of back migration. R-V88 and J-P58 are more likely a back migration to Africa from Eurasia, in particular the former, where as E in general seems to have gradually expanded northwards over a long period of time. I have yet to see evidence that branches of E in Iran, Turkey, or Southern Europe headed southwards once they arrived to their current location. To the best of my knowledge, the phylogeny doesn't support it, but R-V88 very much supports it, and J-P58 arguably as well.

As seen in the figure I had posted there is just one SNP separating the precursor of E, DE (85.5-87.9kybp) from the CF (83.5-88.7kybp) branch . So looking at the ranges, DE and CF could have been born in the same family. So it looks almost certain that CF and DE were either both born in Africa or both outside. As there is abundant CF outside Africa as well as good amount of DE, it is not stretch to say that CT could have been born outside Africa.

Ebizur
12-29-2014, 07:56 PM
I think it might be helpful to separate the question of the location of the MRCA of DE and CF from the question of the location of the MRCA of E.

Based on present knowledge, the answer to the former question should be "most likely somewhere in Eurasia."

The answer to the second question should be "most likely somewhere in Africa."

These are really two different issues, since there appears to be a gap of approximately 14,000 years between the MRCA of D and E (i.e. the origin of pre-E) and the MRCA of E1 and E2. Pre-E may have migrated from some place in Eurasia to some place in Africa at some time within that span of 14,000 years and subsequently produced proto-E (i.e. the MRCA of all extant E) in Africa.

My working hypothesis is that haplogroup E has developed in and dispersed from Africa subsequent to a migration of a pre-E male from Asia to Africa (cf. the various M-related clades in Africa on the mtDNA side).

ADW_1981
12-29-2014, 11:00 PM
As seen in the figure I had posted there is just one SNP separating the precursor of E, DE (85.5-87.9kybp) from the CF (83.5-88.7kybp) branch . So looking at the ranges, DE and CF could have been born in the same family. So it looks almost certain that CF and DE were either both born in Africa or both outside. As there is abundant CF outside Africa as well as good amount of DE, it is not stretch to say that CT could have been born outside Africa.

A border is simply a dividing line in the sand...in this case between Africa and Middle East quite literally. It's a bit of a stretch to consider this a back migration. What it boils down to is often the intent of some posters who don't want their Y chromosome associated with Africa. I suppose we could envision a very sparsely populated North and Central Africa which was repopulated with YDNA E as it moved south again after branching from CF in the Middle East, or alternatively a robustly populated Africa with hunter-gatherer A/B, which was then reduced in quantity with a back fill of YDNA E. I just don't see either scenario as likely.

How much DE is really outside Africa? Or are you referring to the downstream SNPs such as D-M174 which is fairly isolated in Eastern Asia and other downstream branches from E-M96? I'm pretty certain CT was born outside Africa, or at least the populous/successful downstream branches were. Debating about 60-70K year old ancestors with no evidence, and no living members over a distance of a few hundred miles is pretty silly.

ADW_1981
12-29-2014, 11:10 PM
<deleted> Duplicate

parasar
12-30-2014, 03:24 AM
...

How much DE is really outside Africa? Or are you referring to the downstream SNPs such as D-M174 which is fairly isolated in Eastern Asia and other downstream branches from E-M96? I'm pretty certain CT was born outside Africa, or at least the populous/successful downstream branches were. Debating about 60-70K year old ancestors with no evidence, and no living members over a distance of a few hundred miles is pretty silly.

All of YAP including the downstream branches. The range of DE is actually very wide-ranging and I see no reason to limit its origin to just a few hundred miles. The debate on E though is more akin to the Africa, West Asia vs. Europe debate on R1b - they are essentially adjacent across the Bosphorus, Suez, and Gibraltar - but it may turn out that R1b originated thousands of miles away! Silly perhaps, but that is the nature of such debates.

HarrisRicardo
08-16-2015, 04:34 PM
Thanks, I tested with Familytree and came into Haplo E-M2, so I am learning a lot, it shows Native American which is American Indian, migration route shows from N.Africa, beginning to understand, but so far only a couple of close matches, one matches 65 out of 67 markers, which is tightly related, an email from group admin said one of us was adopted, we knew my match was adopted...so its a learning process. On Ysearch have about 6 matches but with lots of missing markers so hard to tell if they are really matches, one from Saudi Arabia. But the E-M2 only shows about 10 or so with that Haplo of E-m2.

Bane
05-05-2016, 09:19 PM
Consistent with previous proposals14, a parsimonious interpretation of the phylogeny is that the predominant African haplogroup, haplogroup E, arose outside the continent. This model of geographical segregation within the CT clade requires just one continental haplogroup exchange (E to Africa), rather than three (D, C, and F out of Africa). Furthermore, the timing of this putative return to Africa—between the emergence of haplogroup E and its differentiation within Africa by 58 kya—is consistent with proposals, based on non–Y chromosome data, of abundant gene flow between Africa and nearby regions of Asia 50–80 kya15.

source: Bursts in human male demography (http://dienekes.blogspot.rs/2016/04/bursts-in-human-male-demography.html)

J Man
05-05-2016, 09:21 PM
Likely Eurasia (Middle East).

brownar
08-16-2016, 12:28 PM
There's really no reason to believe that Haplogroup E originated outside of Africa. Just like there's no reason to believe that R or J originated in Africa.