Caucasus Origins of Y-DNA T? [Archive]

vettor

07-23-2014, 07:29 AM

We must be looking at different frequency maps then, because I do not agree on that triangle. Excluding the Alawites and Druze, the triangle that you describe better defines the concentration of R1b in the ME. Not Y-DNA T.

The only basal area for T is basra, syria and bavaria.........that the only place. exclude Bavaria because its europe.
99% of T is T1, we have ....assyrians 15%, Azeri 11%, Lezkins 8%, dagestan 7%, ......kurds I cannot remamber, Armenians 8% ............we can claim 38% altai republic/kazaks in central asia if you like....or 8% in tyrol, but these are fringe areas.......the T1 marker is concentrated in the south caucasus area.
zero in Turkmenistan and the BMAC area, Uzbekistan unsure.

the fictious 15 % of Druze has been squashed and the Alawites..........unsure.................again concentration is south caucasus

Humanist

07-23-2014, 08:00 AM

the fictious 15 % of Druze has been squashed and the Alawites..........unsure.................again concentration is south caucasus

Who is talking about Y-DNA T in Druze and Alawites? I stated that your "triangle," when excluding Alawites and Druze best fits the concentration of R1b in the ME, not Y-DNA T.

In the ME, Y-DNA T is concentrated in minority groups in what is today Iraq, in the Armenians of Sasun, and SW Iranians. Basically, the Tigris River. Not the Caucasus.

The "X" marks the spot of the Armenians of Sasun.

Assyrians, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Kurdish Jews, and Bakhtiari Iranians.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101011/Map_Middle_East_T_J_comparison-1_.jpg

ZephyrousMandaru

07-23-2014, 08:10 AM

G and J has always been known for many years that its caucasian (georgia, armenia, ossetian etc) from many sites and T because the bigest concentrations are ...assyria.....zargos mountains....dagestan ( a triangle incorporating, Armenians, azeri, lezkins and others, mainly east side of caspian sea.)

Correction, G and J may peak in the Caucasus. That doesn't insinuate they expanded or originated from the Caucasus. Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, the modality of these uniparental markers probably reflects high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. T probably originated in Mesopotamia, and I wouldn't be surprised if G and J also had a similar origin in or near Mesopotamia or the Near East. After all, Caucasians can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin.

vettor

07-23-2014, 09:36 AM

Correction, G and J may peak in the Caucasus. That doesn't insinuate they expanded or originated from the Caucasus. Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, the modality of these uniparental markers probably reflects high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. T probably originated in Mesopotamia, and I wouldn't be surprised if G and J also had a similar origin in or near Mesopotamia or the Near East. After all, Caucasians can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin.

lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/dates_zpse638dd6e.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/dates_zpse638dd6e.jpg.html)

we know these things

K formed in and around modern kuwait ( as per studies) along with GHIJ , within 2000 years, T and L formed.

-we know K kept heading to SE-Asia ( karafet paper) , but the above haplotypes did not go to SE-Asia.

-from creation of K to creation of P is about 6000 years. P was created in SE-Asia ( Karafet paper)

-From P to creation of R is over 25000 years

So, KGHIJTL all formed between mesopotamia and Gedrosia ( a small area for 7 haplotype ), all formed inside 6000 years.
Are we all saying that these haplotypes in this very short space of human time did not stay together?, did, not head north, when south lay the sea?, did not travel together?

I know of no ancient system where the ancients had the ability to prevent 7 different haplotype in roughly the size of iran from travelling together because they where different haplotypes..........people make me laugh when they think haplotypes traveled alone.

The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.

Q and R are a very different proposition forming over 25000 years after these 7 mentioned types.

Humanist

07-23-2014, 11:32 AM

lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign

The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.

And that is the basis for your opinion? The Madagascar paper? Not that that paper should be referred to as authoritative on the question, but will you please refer me to where in the paper they state that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

Are you familiar with the Zagros Mountains? If they do indeed refer to the Zagros Mountain range in the Madagascar paper, compare the Zagros Mountain range to the location and span of the Tigris. Certainly, it is no "Caucasus."

http://ambientbluecreative.com/animals/Animal-Info/Animal-InfoBooks/Tiger/_images/map-tigris-river.png

parasar

07-23-2014, 03:45 PM

lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/dates_zpse638dd6e.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/dates_zpse638dd6e.jpg.html)

we know these things

K formed in and around modern kuwait ( as per studies) along with GHIJ , within 2000 years, T and L formed.

-we know K kept heading to SE-Asia ( karafet paper) , but the above haplotypes did not go to SE-Asia.

-from creation of K to creation of P is about 6000 years. P was created in SE-Asia ( Karafet paper)

-From P to creation of R is over 25000 years

So, KGHIJTL all formed between mesopotamia and Gedrosia ( a small area for 7 haplotype ), all formed inside 6000 years.
Are we all saying that these haplotypes in this very short space of human time did not stay together?, did, not head north, when south lay the sea?, did not travel together?

I know of no ancient system where the ancients had the ability to prevent 7 different haplotype in roughly the size of iran from travelling together because they where different haplotypes..........people make me laugh when they think haplotypes traveled alone.

The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.

Q and R are a very different proposition forming over 25000 years after these 7 mentioned types.

There are two confirmed F lines. There may be others.
Vietnam harbors both these confirmed lines - F(GHIJK) and F(xGHIJK).
So logically that F bottleneck could have happened in SE Asia followed by a rapid expansion into South Asia with M526 deriving from one of the M9 lines left behind.

This also makes sense from archaeological point of view, as there are no humans in West Asia in the bottleneck period (F 75100 to 49100) and a complete annihilation of S Asians by YTT W of Toba (abt 77000ybp). East of Toba there may have had a few survivors of the bottleneck, perhaps in the Malaysia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam region (cf Cave of Monkeys).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Lake_Toba_location.png

vettor

07-23-2014, 07:02 PM

vettor

07-23-2014, 07:10 PM

And that is the basis for your opinion? The Madagascar paper? Not that that paper should be referred to as authoritative on the question, but will you please refer me to where in the paper they state that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

Are you familiar with the Zagros Mountains? If they do indeed refer to the Zagros Mountain range in the Madagascar paper, compare the Zagros Mountain range to the location and span of the Tigris. Certainly, it is no "Caucasus."

http://ambientbluecreative.com/animals/Animal-Info/Animal-InfoBooks/Tiger/_images/map-tigris-river.png

The paper states that J1 and T1 moved south into arabia not that long ago...........there is 60000 years between T and L origin to the "not that long ago", clearly where they are found indicates,..... as stated for T - as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).
with this statement ...........50000 years past of the west-Asia T marker to move around...if not southerly into north aftrica, east africa and arabia, then clearly where do you think it went!

Humanist

07-23-2014, 07:49 PM

The paper states that J1 and T1 moved south into arabia not that long ago...........there is 60000 years between T and L origin to the "not that long ago", clearly where they are found indicates,..... as stated for T - as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).
with this statement ...........50000 years past of the west-Asia T marker to move around...if not southerly into north aftrica, east africa and arabia, then clearly where do you think it went!

I have little idea what you are talking about now.

Where in the Madagascar paper does it say that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

vettor

07-24-2014, 07:45 AM

I have little idea what you are talking about now.

Where in the Madagascar paper does it say that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

In point form

oldest T age in arabia = 1059 ybp . "The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: evidence for bidirectional corridors of human migrations"

oldest T age in Egypt = 13700ybp . . "The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: evidence for bidirectional corridors of human migrations".......this line fed somalia

oldest T age in Anatolia = 9000ybp. . "The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: evidence for bidirectional corridors of human migrations"

nearly zero T in parthian and bactrian area of NE Persia ( less than 1% )

small scattered T in east India (2%)

zero T in turkenistan BMAC and Uzbekistan

what happened to T since creation oy 63000 years to 13700 years ?
Only place to go was Zargos mountains and caucasus.......have we data today from these areas , yes......6% to 16% in lezkins, azeri, assyrian, dagestan, armenians etc .........If this is not the logical trail, then where did T go for nearly 50000 years?

Thomas Paper for T ( both mtdna and ydna) in the alps ( 8% )............zero came from the anatolia/levant or middle-east .............must have come from caucasus as T in the alps is neolithic , same as G

when all probables have been eliminated, the last probable must be the truth.

if you can counter the studies that show the age of origin of T in the areas as per above, then please inform me.

Humanist

10-03-2014, 11:40 PM

vettor

10-03-2014, 11:55 PM

Based on the data in Balanovsky et al. (2011), Y-DNA T is not at all a significant lineage in the Caucasus:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/TnDt35U9quI/AAAAAAAAEHs/jbFjkOzRV5o/s1600/caucasus-ychrom.png

from ftdna

most common Azeri haplogroups. In terms of Y-DNA (paternal genetics), haplogroup J2 is the most prevalent with about 20 percent of Azeri men having it, followed by haplogroup G at a frequency of 18 percent. Others found in Azeri men are T (11%), R1b (11%), R1a (7%), E (6%), I (3%), and some others (15%). Within these haplogroups, some Azeri men specifically have the haplogroups T1, E1b1b1c1 (this one originated in Anatolia), G2a3b1, and R1b1a2.

no is the answer from your other post

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).

Anatolia (modern Turkey), and these Kurds' Y-DNA (paternal DNA) haplogroup distributions were as follows:

J2-M172 = 19.9%
F*-M89 = 14.3%
R1a1-M17 = 12.4%
R1-M173 = 11.2%
J1-M267 = 11.2%
P-M45 = 10%
T-M70 = 4.8%
E1b1b1a-M78 = 4%
E1b1b1c-M123 = 4%
G-M201 = 2%

link below has 8% for azeri people in iran
where it is shown that G-M201, J2-M410, Q-M242, R1-M269, R1-M198, and T-M70, are some of the haplogroups encountered among the Azeris of Iran. The exact percentages of their presence are listed on "Table 1. Haplogroup frequencies (%) in the examined Iranian groups."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252
2012 paper

clearly all studies shows that africa, arabia, irak, levant and india all have very young T subclades so..........what is left ..........????

Humanist

10-04-2014, 12:05 AM

from ftdna

most common Azeri haplogroups. In terms of Y-DNA (paternal genetics), haplogroup J2 is the most prevalent with about 20 percent of Azeri men having it, followed by haplogroup G at a frequency of 18 percent. Others found in Azeri men are T (11%), R1b (11%), R1a (7%), E (6%), I (3%), and some others (15%). Within these haplogroups, some Azeri men specifically have the haplogroups T1, E1b1b1c1 (this one originated in Anatolia), G2a3b1, and R1b1a2.

no is the answer from your other post

That is your support for a northern origin of haplogroup T? Also, that is from "Khazaria.com." Not FTDNA.

Also, the FTDNA Azerbaijan Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults) has close to 50 members. Only 2 are members of haplogroup T. That works out to roughly 4%.

Humanist

10-04-2014, 12:09 AM

clearly all studies shows that africa, arabia, irak, levant and india all have very young T subclades so..........what is left ..........????

That is plainly wrong. And, please refrain from adding unnecessary question marks. One is sufficient.

vettor

10-04-2014, 12:10 AM

That is your support for a northern origin of haplogroup T? Also, that is from "Khazaria.com." Not FTDNA.

Also, the FTDNA Azerbaijan Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults) has close to 50 members. Only 2 are members of haplogroup T. That works out to roughly 4%.

I did not finish as I need to add piecemeal or else I loose the response............see the paper now

vettor

10-04-2014, 12:13 AM

That is plainly wrong. And, please refrain from adding unnecessary question marks. One is sufficient.

you need to argue with the people who wrote the paper(s) ......they state that T in areas I noted are too young to be orign basal area.

The india T in east india coast area is 100% linked with one group that migrated to india.............that group where the ones that settled in oman 1600BP

vettor

10-04-2014, 12:20 AM

another
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286660/

armenia, azeri, georgia are caucasus area ( south caucasus) ........am I wrong in assuming this?

just to let you know, it does not really interest me on where T-M184 is found as i do not have that basal marker. I just want to check where all the basal T originate

Humanist

10-04-2014, 12:21 AM

you need to argue with the people who wrote the paper(s) ......they state that T in areas I noted are too young to be orign basal area.

I do not need to argue with any author(s). I think your ideas regarding Y-DNA T's origins are way off base, and not at all supported by the totality of the data.

Humanist

10-04-2014, 12:25 AM

another
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286660/

armenia, azeri, georgia are caucasus area ( south caucasus) ........am I wrong in assuming this?

Yes. You are wrong. The abstract of the paper you cite is below. Before referring to a paper, you would be best served to understand what it is suggesting.

Armenia, situated between the Black and Caspian Seas, lies at the junction of Turkey, Iran, Georgia, Azerbaijan and former Mesopotamia. This geographic position made it a potential contact zone between Eastern and Western civilizations. In this investigation, we assess Y-chromosomal diversity in four geographically distinct populations that represent the extent of historical Armenia. We find a striking prominence of haplogroups previously implicated with the Agricultural Revolution in the Near East, including the J2a-M410-, R1b1b1*-L23-, G2a-P15- and J1-M267-derived lineages. Given that the Last Glacial Maximum event in the Armenian plateau occured a few millennia before the Neolithic era, we envision a scenario in which its repopulation was achieved mainly by the arrival of farmers from the Fertile Crescent temporally coincident with the initial inception of farming in Greece. However, we detect very restricted genetic affinities with Europe that suggest any later cultural diffusions from Armenia to Europe were not associated with substantial amounts of paternal gene flow, despite the presence of closely related Indo-European languages in both Armenia and Southeast Europe.

vettor

10-04-2014, 12:30 AM

Yes. You are wrong. The abstract of the paper you cite is below. Before referring to a paper, you would be best served to understand what it is suggesting.

all of these
we assess Y-chromosomal diversity in four geographically distinct populations that represent the extent of historical Armenia. We find a striking prominence of haplogroups previously implicated with the Agricultural Revolution in the Near East, including the J2a-M410-, R1b1b1*-L23-, G2a-P15- and J1-M267-derived lineages. Given that the Last Glacial Maximum event in the Armenian plateau occured a few millennia before the Neolithic era, we envision a scenario in which its repopulation was achieved mainly by the arrival of farmers from the Fertile Crescent

so, G2a-P15 is not Caucasus either ............is this what it means

is the battaglia paper wrong as well?

ZephyrousMandaru

10-04-2014, 12:42 AM

Vettor, you're grossly misinterpreting the what authors are the paper are stating, which is that the Armenian plateau and Caucasus were populated by agriculturalists from the Fertile Crescent. In other words, the Caucasus was a refugium for agriculturalists not a source of where they originated. Which would explain the presence of those Y-DNA lineages in Caucasians, again T did not expand from the Caucasus and neither did any of those lineages. There's no evidence for this, and contrarily, there is evidence against it both archaeological and genetic in nature.

vettor

10-04-2014, 12:48 AM

Are you on the theory that T origins where the Sumerians and Elamites and that the Sumerians migrated NW to form the assyrians ( or where a part of the people who created assyrians ) ?

ZephyrousMandaru

10-04-2014, 01:20 AM

I'm not exactly sure where T originated, but given all the evidence I do believe it's most plausible origin is in the Fertile Crescent near Mesopotamia. Incidentally, Lezgins (a North Caucasian ethnic group) can be modeled as 80% EEF and 20% ANE. If that isn't enough, ENF is a Basal Eurasian shifted component that most likely arose in the Fertile Crescent, what would ultimately confirm this is using an ancient genome from PPNB.

Which I imagine is very rich in ENF and therefore Basal Eurasian ancestry as well. Lezgins are over 50% ENF, that alone supports the conclusions of the paper which you cited. Which is that Caucasians are ultimately descended from Fertile Crescent dwellers.

Lezgin_GSM536850
ANE 26.74%
ASE 3.88%
WHG-UHG 14.65%
East_Eurasian 0%
West_African 0.01%
East_African 0%
ENF 54.72%

Ebizur

10-04-2014, 01:23 AM

Based on the data in Balanovsky et al. (2011), Y-DNA T is not at all a significant lineage in the Caucasus

One also might point out the fact that six of the eleven cases of Y-DNA haplogroup T that they have found among people in the vicinity of the Caucasus have been found in speakers of Turkic (2/69 Karachays + 1/73 Kumyks + 1/87 Kuban Nogays + 0/76 Kara Nogays + 0/135 Balkars = 4/440 = 0.9% Caucasian Turkic total) or Indo-European (2/57 Armenians + 0/10 Mountain Jews + 0/21 South Ossetians + 0/132 North Ossetians = 2/220 = 0.9% Caucasian Indo-European total) languages. Of course, the Avar-Andi language speakers in this study have a slightly higher frequency of T (2/42 Avars + 1/49 Andis + 0/27 Chamalals + 0/28 Bagvalals = 3/146 = 2.1% Avar-Andi total) as a group, but the sample size is relatively small, and the Avars at least are suspected to have been affected by some foreign influences. The speakers of other Caucasian language groups have no (Dargin, Nakh, Lezgic, Kartvelian) or very little T (1/162 Abkhazians + 0/88 Abazins = 1/250 = 0.4% Abazgi total; 1/140 Kabardin + 0/126 Cherkessians + 0/154 Adyghe = 1/420 = 0.2% Circassian total) in this study. Abazgi and Circassian are usually classified as branches of a Northwest Caucasian language family, but the separation between the Abazgi and Circassian branches is certainly very ancient.

However, I do wonder what the K* found in 1/21 South Ossetians and 2/126 Cherkessians might be. These might be some sort of T(xM70) depending on how the authors have defined their haplogroups.

vettor

10-04-2014, 02:27 AM

Maybe some believe what came out as an assumption from karafet paper of 2014

The New Y-DNA Haplogroup K1.

The Y-DNA haplogroups known as L (mostly South Asian and especially the Indus River Valley) and T (geographically broad early Neolithic and/or Epipaleolithic expansion from around Mesopotamia into Europe and parts of Africa and since diluted in many places), have been included in a newly designated Y-DNA K1 haplogroup.

It would appear that K1, which stayed in West Eurasia (probably in Iran or South Asia) before it split from K2, which continued on to SE Asia around 70 kya, if not earlier.

K1 could also have backmigrated from Southeast Asia around the same time as Y-DNA haplogroups Q and R, but that seems much less likely as there are few traces of Y-DNA haplogroup L or T in Southeast Asia that can't be much more easily explained by later migrations.

vettor

10-07-2014, 06:18 PM

with Genetic atlas stating recently ( this year) that LT-L298 originates from the Sind Valley , I can accept that T origins must have moved west from sind valley, so , is it the Sumerians and Elamites that some suspect from mesopotamia ...or...the south caucasus that I suspect.
I believe T where never originally farmers , more likely hunters or herders.

If mesopotamia is its origin , then they would be farmers as Sumerians sustained existence from farming and with this , they would be in a huge percentage...( which they are not)

vettor

11-19-2014, 05:15 AM

Humanist

11-19-2014, 05:37 AM

Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184...

It would help if you would provide references for the data that you cite.

vettor

11-21-2014, 06:51 PM

Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184 ( by what I have read )for these people came via the Dailamites of an area in Northern Iran ( between the Alborz mountains and Chalus ). These dailamities are said to be the modern version of the Dimilii tribe which is associated with either the Medes or Parthians.
Anyone, have any info on these "kurdish" medes/parthians and their migration from South coast casoian sea to eastern Anatolia?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

which leads to the zaza people living in sasun , which leads to migration of Zaza people from IIRC Gilum lands " Dailamites" which are said to be ancient medes of the Dimilii tribe

Humanist

11-21-2014, 07:10 PM

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

which leads to the zaza people living in sasun , which leads to migration of Zaza people from IIRC Gilum lands " Dailamites" which are said to be ancient medes of the Dimilii tribe

That is a paper about ARMENIANS. Not Zazas.

vettor

11-21-2014, 08:00 PM

That is a paper about ARMENIANS. Not Zazas.

Sasun was a famous town its revolts. Sasun is a district of City of Siirt administratively and it is about 14 hours far from Mus. It is nearby Mutki and Garzan districts. Since its land is mountainous and steep, it is far from the government influence. The habitants including the Armenians spoke Zaza and Kurdish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language

zaza people are in sasun

Linguistic studies shows that the Zaza may have immigrated to their modern-day homeland from the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Some Zaza use the word Dimli (Daylami) to describe their ethnic identity. The word Dimli (Daylami) also describes a region of Gilan Province in today’s Iran. Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the have migrated from Daylam towards the west. Today, Iranian languages are still spoken in southern regions of Caspian Sea (also called the Caspian languages), including Sangsarī, Māzandarānī, Tātī (Herzendī), Semnānī, Tāleshī, and they are grammatically and lexically very close to Zazaki; this supports the argument that Zaza immigrated to eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea.[19]

It is generally believed that the Zazas immigrated to their modern-day homeland from the southern shores of the Caspian Sea.[citation needed] Some Zazas use the word Dimli to describe their ethnic identity. The word Dimil also describes a region of Gilan Province in today's Iran.[citation needed] Zazaki language also shows similarities with Gilaki, Mazanderani and others spoken by the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. But some historians claim that Zazas did not immigrate from lands of Daylem, but are descendants of Persians after being defeated by Alexander the Great.[citation needed] Dimili comes from Dümbüllü, old main Zaza tribe that lived in the region of Diyarbakır.

Humanist

11-21-2014, 08:26 PM

[/B]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language

zaza people are in sasun

Again. The data you referred to was for the Armenians of Sasun. Different people. Armenians are not the same as the Zaza.

Humanist

11-21-2014, 08:33 PM

Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184 ( by what I have read )for these people...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eeiqdMBSHeE/TsQcqhEFo2I/AAAAAAAAET0/yG-X-y-oFH8/s1600/2011-11-16-202518_1366x768_scrot.png

Armenians of Sasun

Y-DNA T

21/104 = 20.1%

vettor

11-21-2014, 08:38 PM

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eeiqdMBSHeE/TsQcqhEFo2I/AAAAAAAAET0/yG-X-y-oFH8/s1600/2011-11-16-202518_1366x768_scrot.png

Armenians of Sasun

Y-DNA T

21/104 = 20.1%

Can the tests really say they where all Armenians? gauranteed...............the tests are done in an area asking for Armenians to be tested, what proof do they have that all tested where armenians?
It reminds me of when Italy try to test South Tyrol and ask for only Italians to be tested.......Austrians get tested who live in South Tyrol claiming they are south tyroleans from over 300 years and now noted as Italians

DMXX

11-21-2014, 08:42 PM

Can the tests really say they where all Armenians? gauranteed...............the tests are done in an area asking for Armenians to be tested, what proof do they have that all tested where armenians?
It reminds me of when Italy try to test South Tyrol and ask for only Italians to be tested.......Austrians get tested who live in South Tyrol claiming they are south tyroleans from over 300 years and now noted as Italians

Original paper (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html). Their methodology:

Sample collection and DNA isolation
Buccal swabs were acquired with informed consent from 413 unrelated individuals under the ethical guidelines asserted by the Florida International University Institutional Review Board. These individuals, collected from four distinct regions of the historical expanse of Armenia (Figure 1), the Ararat Valley (n=110), Gardman (n=96), Lake Van (n=103) and Sasun (n=104), were assessed to be ethnic Armenians for at least two generations. DNA was isolated with the Gentra Buccal Cell Kit using the protocol described in the manufacturer's specifications (Puregene, Gentra Systems, Minneapolis, MN, USA).

You are adding an unnecessary layer of uncertainty to the discussion. Confirming known ancestry back two generations (grandparents) is common practice in pop gen papers.

vettor

11-22-2014, 07:07 PM

Original paper (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html). Their methodology:

You are adding an unnecessary layer of uncertainty to the discussion. Confirming known ancestry back two generations (grandparents) is common practice in pop gen papers.

Ok, Then what is the % of T in proper Armenia and ancient armenian Cilicia?

from Armenian ftdna project
Haplogroup T, formerly know as K2, has two branches, T1a & T1b, and is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and West Africa as can be seen in this MAP. Its origins and spread are still mysterious but we are slowly getting more clarity as can be seen in this new large and relatively slow-to-load MAP. The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.

This is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

unsure if this ever gets updated
http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/subcladetmapupdated.png

Kurd

12-23-2014, 11:34 AM

And that is the basis for your opinion? The Madagascar paper? Not that that paper should be referred to as authoritative on the question, but will you please refer me to where in the paper they state that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

Are you familiar with the Zagros Mountains? If they do indeed refer to the Zagros Mountain range in the Madagascar paper, compare the Zagros Mountain range to the location and span of the Tigris. Certainly, it is no "Caucasus."

http://ambientbluecreative.com/animals/Animal-Info/Animal-InfoBooks/Tiger/_images/map-tigris-river.png

I recently had my dad tested at 23andMe, and his test came back T on YDNA, and W on mtDNA. What an odd and low probability combination!!

I read Dienekes blog at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/new-paper-on-y-chromosome-haplogroup-t.html, where he cites a paper, that joins hap T with L. I am looking for feedback on the following:

1- Has there been any studies on the origins of T based on this info;
2- Are there any studies on the frequency of T in western asia.

With regards to W, I found the following info at http://www.thecid.com/

"The first member of what is referred to as the W haplogroup, whom we refer to as Wilma, was born between 15,000 and 19,000 years ago, probably in what is now northwest India or northern Pakistan."

Can anyone cite any studies on the origins of W and its present frequency in Asia.

Any info is greatly appreciated :)

vettor

12-26-2014, 08:17 PM

I recently had my dad tested at 23andMe, and his test came back T on YDNA, and W on mtDNA. What an odd and low probability combination!!

I read Dienekes blog at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/new-paper-on-y-chromosome-haplogroup-t.html, where he cites a paper, that joins hap T with L. I am looking for feedback on the following:

1- Has there been any studies on the origins of T based on this info;
2- Are there any studies on the frequency of T in western asia.

With regards to W, I found the following info at http://www.thecid.com/

"The first member of what is referred to as the W haplogroup, whom we refer to as Wilma, was born between 15,000 and 19,000 years ago, probably in what is now northwest India or northern Pakistan."

Can anyone cite any studies on the origins of W and its present frequency in Asia.

Any info is greatly appreciated :)

if you mean origins of a union , then LT-L298 it is stated as sind valley origin along with another subclades Z1, L855, L206.

IIRC it was stated then that T split and headed into Ariana, Bulkh and north afghan areas while L went into India ( i refer to main componenets and not all components )

I have not seen any LT-L298 in semaghl except for areas stated above plus caucasus................I also have this LT-L298 SNP

some of my SNP's ......V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L468+, L470+

wiki states
Haplogroup K-M9 (M9) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. This haplogroup is a descendant of Haplogroup IJK. Its major descendant haplogroup are Haplogroup LT (L298 = P326) and Haplogroup K(xLT) (M526).

it is impossible that LT formed in mesopotamia because we find very little L there...........the only choice is LT formed near India and then T and L split there

Humanist

12-26-2014, 09:09 PM

Some good data accumulated over at the Caucasus DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Caucasus/default.aspx?section=yresults).

N=848
Y-DNA T=5

Less than 1% frequency.

Humanist

12-26-2014, 09:15 PM

it is impossible that LT formed in mesopotamia because we find very little L there...........the only choice is LT formed near India and then T and L split there

Although it does not make it impossible, it is true that there is little L found in Mesopotamia. However, L is observed in moderate frequencies among Levantine minority groups.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Map_Middle_East_L_.jpg

vettor

12-26-2014, 09:18 PM

Some good data accumulated over at the Caucasus DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Caucasus/default.aspx?section=yresults).

N=848
Y-DNA T=5

Less than 1% frequency.

you do realise , you do not need to join ftdna projects , ;)

conclusion, what are they good for?

Humanist

12-26-2014, 09:20 PM

1- Has there been any studies on the origins of T based on this info;
2- Are there any studies on the frequency of T in western asia.

See Mendez et al. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21453003)

vettor

12-26-2014, 09:21 PM

Although it does not make it impossible, it is true that there is little L found in Mesopotamia. However, L is observed in moderate frequencies among Levantine minority groups.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Map_Middle_East_L_.jpg

give me a logical answer...........if LT ( L298 now called P326, you need these to be either T or L ) has it main areas of coastal pakistan and india ( or even gedrosian) then how can it ever be mesopotanian ?

Humanist

12-26-2014, 09:24 PM

give me a logical answer...........if LT ( L298 now called P326, you need these to be either T or L ) has it main areas of coastal pakistan and india ( or even gedrosian) then how can it ever be mesopotanian ?

You did not properly read the post. Did I suggest it was Mesopotamian? I stated that L is not observed in significant frequencies in Mesopotamia. However, it is observed in moderate frequencies among Levantine minority groups.

In my opinion, LT arose somewhere between and including the Levant and South Asia. That is a gigantic stretch of real estate. However, based on modern frequencies, that is the best that I can do.

vettor

12-26-2014, 09:42 PM

give me a logical answer...........if LT ( L298 now called P326, you need these to be either T or L ) has it main areas of coastal pakistan and india ( or even gedrosian) then how can it ever be mesopotanian ?

thrown out of site , before I finished............below in refrence to the mendez paper...........russian scholars on the subject

Indeed, both L and T have been studied in terms of their haplotypes, base (deduced ancestral) haplotypes, and TMRCAs, both intraclade and interclade ones. Results are published (mainly in Russian) in the Proceedings in the July 2011 issue, then October, November, and December issues, and in the 2012 February issue.
As you have rightly noticed, the paper by Mendez, Karafet, Krahn (...) and Hammer employed the infamous Zhivotovsky "population mutation rate", which momentarily makes all dates (TMRCA and others) in the paper unusable. They can be any, regardless the numbers given. It is surprising and sad, that the authors do not pay attention on publications in the field, and on discussions at this Forum, among others. One more proof for this - Lemba haplotypes were considered in detail with their haplotype analysis in J. Genet. Geneal. (2009) vol. 5 (2) pp. 217-256. However, the said paper of Mendez et al did not mention it. However, the paper in J. Gen. Geneal. has shown that Lemba haplotypes have nothing to do with ancient history of either the Jews, or the Cohens. The "Cohen Modal Haplotype" has entered to Lemba around the 14th Century CE, that is around 600 year ago. It has nothing to do with the ancient oral history of Lemba.
Coming back to haplogroups L and T, they might well have a common SNP, but it was a looooong time ago. In fact, it comes back to the times when all other non-African haplogroups have arisen, that is around 60,000 ybp. Since then haplotypes L and T went apart VERY significantly. Their 22-marker haplotypes, composed of the slowest markers, differ by 15 mutations (!), and each mutation in the slowest 22 marker panel adds some 6,000 years. More accurate calculations result in 93,000 years between common ancestors of haplogroups L and T, and THEIR common ancestor, LT, lived ~ 58,000 years ago.
It is simple and straightforward. When you consider two base haplotypes (which ideally are ancestral haplotypes for, say, haplogroup L and haplogroup T; however, we live in the real world, hence, base haplotypes), and these two haplotypes differ by a certain number of mutations, then the more mutations between them, the "older" their common ancestor. I believe it is clear.
Now, for VERY ancient TMRCA I employ the 22 marker panel, which is composed with the slowest markers. It is described and explained in "Advances in Anthropology", http://www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ . The base haplotypes for haplogroups L and T are VERY remote from each other, with 15 mutations between them. It corresponds to 93,000 years between their a common ancestor for L and a common ancestor for T. These 93,000 years is the timespan needed for 15 mutations to appear between these two base haplotypes.
If these common ancestors would have lived 0 (zero) years ago, that is they live right now, then their common ancestor lived 93,000/2 = 46,500 years ago. Mathematically it would be (93,000 + 0 + 0)/2 = 46,500. However, it is not the case. If both of them would have lived, say, 10,000 ybp, THEIR common ancestor lived (93,000 + 10,000 + 10,000)/2 = 56,500 ybp. In case of haplogroups L and T the similar operation has resulted in 58,000 ybp.

vettor

12-26-2014, 09:44 PM

Humanist

12-26-2014, 09:57 PM

you do realise , you do not need to join ftdna projects , ;)

conclusion, what are they good for?

Yes. Somehow, the Y-DNA T men have all decided to not join the project. Well, save for those five individuals.

Kurd

12-27-2014, 11:09 PM

Yes. Somehow, the Y-DNA T men have all decided to not join the project. Well, save for those five individuals.

Thanks for posting. I am totally unfamiliar with FTDNA and their projects. Also, are you aware of any published SNP tables I could use to figure out which subclade of T I fall under.

Humanist

12-27-2014, 11:22 PM

[A]re you aware of any published SNP tables I could use to figure out which subclade of T I fall under.

Where are you tested? 23andMe? If so, you will need to test with FTDNA or FGC in order to obtain a better understanding of your paternal line.

Humanist

12-27-2014, 11:29 PM

1- Has there been any studies on the origins of T based on this info;
2- Are there any studies on the frequency of T in western asia.

I had posted the below frequency map a few years ago, based on multiple sources for Near East minority groups (Jews, Christians (Palestinians, Assyrians..), Alawites, Samaritans, Druze, etc.). The "X" marks the spot of the Armenians of Sasun. They are exceptional in that they have a significantly higher frequency of Y-DNA T than any other Armenian regional group. Kurds are not represented on the map, as I was requested by a Kurdish member to exclude Kurdish frequencies from the map. I believe Y-DNA T is found at moderate frequencies among Kurds (5%) (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2014/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-xi.html).

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101011/Map_Middle_East_T_J_comparison-1_.jpg

vettor

12-29-2014, 12:13 AM

You did not properly read the post. Did I suggest it was Mesopotamian? I stated that L is not observed in significant frequencies in Mesopotamia. However, it is observed in moderate frequencies among Levantine minority groups.

In my opinion, LT arose somewhere between and including the Levant and South Asia. That is a gigantic stretch of real estate. However, based on modern frequencies, that is the best that I can do.

your L map agrees with me the Tand L went from East to West via "near" the southern part of the caspian sea ( gilam lands etc)

further to this

More support for the unlikely Jewish link of the Lemba with Jewish populations was reported by Mendez et al.22 following the finer resolution of haplogroups L and T. In this study, a novel mutation (P326) was found in both haplogroups L and T. However, additional single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), PS129, PS18 (M70), PS21 and L131 resolved haplogroup T into sub-branches T*, T1*, T1a* (with 6 sub-lineages) and T1b* (with 3 sub-lineages), respectively. Y chromosomes from Jewish populations clustered in branch T1a*. In the sample of 34 Lemba included in this study, 6 Lemba Y chromosomes (17.6%) were assigned to the branch T1b*.22 Although this level of resolution was not genotyped in the present study, T1b* chromosomes would be represented by haplogroup L-M11 chromosomes found in the Lemba and Remba (Fig 1A). The present-day distribution of haplogroup L-M11 is mostly confined to southern, central and western Asia;23 it has been found only at low frequencies in populations of the Caucasus region and the Middle East and is absent in Palestinian and Syrian Arab.11 , 24-27

http://www.samj.org.za/index.php/samj/article/view/7297/5714

The L-M11 which is not , as stated in paleastian or syrian arab .....also agrees with the zero positives results of CTS8862 in those parts of the populace.

Humanist

12-29-2014, 01:03 AM

your L map agrees with me the Tand L went from East to West via "near" the southern part of the caspian sea ( gilam lands etc)

It does no such thing. It reflects the frequencies observed among select modern populations. In my mind, your "'near' the southern part of the caspian sea," is absurdly specific. We have ZERO Y-DNA data from the ancient peoples of the Middle East and South Asia.

vettor

12-29-2014, 01:42 AM

It does no such thing. It reflects the frequencies observed among select modern populations. In my mind, your "'near' the southern part of the caspian sea," is absurdly specific. We have ZERO Y-DNA data from the ancient peoples of the Middle East and South Asia.

it had to go from india to "your map for L" and it surely never went by the southern route of Iran, because there is zero in those areas.............are you saying it went vis the northern side of the caspian sea or are you saying it came in via asia, the americas, via europe/north africa to this "armenian/south caucasus area on your map?
Advise me which route ?

or

ar you trying to say L was created in the caucasus?

Remember P326 in the LT marker prior to the split.

What are to trying to defend?
You seem to go against the karafet 2014 paper

as per the L-M11 goes with T1b
The spread of haplogroup L-M11 lineages is largely restricted to populations of the south Caucasus (Weale et al. 2001), Middle East (Nebel et al. 2001b), Pakistan (Qamar et al. 2002) and India (Kivisild et al. 2003). Interestingly Turkish L lineages lack the M27 mutation that characterizes Indian and Pakistani L lineages. Although no M27 data exist for Armenians, the haplogroup L modal haplotype of the six STR loci in Armenians haplotype (Weale et al. 2001) matches the most common Turkish counterpart. An attempt to interpret other informative lineages in Turkey such as I1a-M253, J2a-M47, J2f-M67, K2-M70, N-M231 is premature until they are adequately surveyed elsewhere.

vettor

12-29-2014, 05:17 AM

P326 which represents LT is clearly not a middle-east marker of origin

http://paperity.org/p/28224738/an-efficient-multiplex-genotyping-approach-for-detecting-the-major-worldwide-human-y

parasar

03-17-2015, 02:40 AM

There are two confirmed F lines. There may be others.
Vietnam harbors both these confirmed lines - F(GHIJK) and F(xGHIJK).
So logically that F bottleneck could have happened in SE Asia followed by a rapid expansion into South Asia with M526 deriving from one of the M9 lines left behind.

This also makes sense from archaeological point of view, as there are no humans in West Asia in the bottleneck period (F 75100 to 49100) and a complete annihilation of S Asians by YTT W of Toba (abt 77000ybp). East of Toba there may have had a few survivors of the bottleneck, perhaps in the Malaysia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam region (cf Cave of Monkeys).

...
Karmin et al. paints a similar scenario to the one described above.

"we observe an early split in our haplogroup F data that separates haplogroup G from HT-M578. However intersecting our data with Malaysian Chr Y sequence data (Wong et al. 2013) reveals a split in haplogroup F that predates the G/HT split by one mutation, F1329 (Figure S13). This finding is in accordance with the two Lahu F2-M427 individuals reported in Poznik et al. (2013) as having an ancestral allele of M578. In combination with the presence of deep branches of K in Southeast Asia, this further strengthens the model proposing that the initial radiation of the non-African Chr Y lineages may have taken place somewhere in Southeast Asia ... Only 24 mutational events distinguish the progression of two major non-African founder haplogroups F to K (Figure S13). Similarly small number of differences separate haplogroups LT, NO, S and P from their MRCA in haplogroup K (Figure S28), consistent with the suggestion of Karafet et al. 2014 (Karafet et al. 2014) that the initial diversification of Eurasian and Oceanian founder haplogroups was a rapid process limited to a few thousand years overall. We estimate that a peak of the coalescent events of the oldest non-African haplogroups falls into a time window of 47-52 kya"
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Text.pdf

Christina

03-22-2015, 10:47 PM

We need to get beyond a disease of fallacious thinking, which I call "Lettered Haplogroup Significance Hypersensitivity." :) Lot of comments on this thread suffer from LHSH.

Remember that "Haplogroup T" is a very large, and very poorly understood, and very old stop on a mutation train. It was a mutation that was arbitrarily named K2 way back, and just as arbitrarily named T more recently. However the TMCRA of the various subclades is vast. Looking for a common origin because they share a letter that we choose to signify with a common letter is silly.

A better system would be to assign all major clades new names. As we have learned recently, R2 has so little in common with R1, it means little. The European Ts are so divergent from the non-European T clades, same. Don't even get me started on how little the C clades signify.

If your goal is to infer population-wide significance from a Lettered Haplogroup, you have to remember that they continued mutating well beyond that initial Letter stop way back when.

You cannot talk about T having a geographic significance because it likely branched off well before there were any ethnic or geographical meaning to any splits. In other words, saying T is originally Middle Eastern is really the same as saying that ALL European Hgs originally went through the Middle East at some point, or that all Hgs were originally Afircan. You are too far back on the mutation timeline for this to mean squat. Stick to subclades.

Humanist

03-22-2015, 11:14 PM

In other words, saying T is originally Middle Eastern is really the same as saying that ALL European Hgs originally went through the Middle East at some point, or that all Hgs were originally Afircan. You are too far back on the mutation timeline for this to mean squat. Stick to subclades.

Who is saying T was originally (definitively) Middle Eastern? It is in the Middle East where some if its highest frequencies, and subclade varieties exist today. That is what is being stated. We will likely never know when and where Y-DNA T first originated. However, with the aid of enough aDNA, we may be able to piece together its movements through history.

Caspian

03-23-2015, 03:22 PM

Who is saying T was originally (definitively) Middle Eastern? It is in the Middle East where some if its highest frequencies, and subclade varieties exist today. That is what is being stated. We will likely never know when and where Y-DNA T first originated. However, with the aid of enough aDNA, we may be able to piece together its movements through history.

Administrators of the FTDNA L and T projects saying that. They think both T and L originated in the Middle East.

rock hunter

03-24-2015, 06:59 AM

I think the administrators need to say something other then "we really have no idea" if they want to keep their jobs and sell more tests. The Middle East is about 5 million square miles give or take or an area over a million miles larger then China. They might as well just point Easterly and say its over there someplace. ( Or Westerly for those east of it )

Humanist

03-24-2015, 07:16 AM

I think the administrators need to say something other then "we really have no idea" if they want to keep their jobs and sell more tests.

Administrators are volunteers. They derive absolutely no financial gain from the sale of FTDNA kits/tests.

rock hunter

03-24-2015, 07:22 AM

well yes ,I know that lol
but they do push those tests as my inbox attests to

But that remark ,for which I do apologize for aside
I meant no offence

That answer ,it was not really an answer ,was it ?

Humanist

03-24-2015, 07:27 AM

well yes ,I know that lol
but they do push those tests
But I mean such a vague answer
is not really an answer ,is it ?

I really do not know what you are getting at, but if you would like to continue a discussion of the role of FTDNA administrators, and the sale of FTDNA kits/tests, please create another thread. Thank you.

rock hunter

03-24-2015, 07:35 AM

??? I am not ,do not and only mentioned it in jest once

vettor

03-25-2015, 06:24 AM

Who is saying T was originally (definitively) Middle Eastern? It is in the Middle East where some if its highest frequencies, and subclade varieties exist today. That is what is being stated. We will likely never know when and where Y-DNA T first originated. However, with the aid of enough aDNA, we may be able to piece together its movements through history.

Who says West-Asian marker is a Middle-east marker?

T is known ONLY as a west-asian marker. Clearly geneticists have always stated this so, regardless of highest frequencies. They clearly know more than anyone else why they marked T as a west-asian marker

Humanist

03-25-2015, 06:58 AM

Who says West-Asian marker is a Middle-east marker?

T is known ONLY as a west-asian marker. Clearly geneticists have always stated this so, regardless of highest frequencies. They clearly know more than anyone else why they marked T as a west-asian marker

What is the deal with the semantic shenanigans?

Wikipedia

Western Asia, West Asia, Southwestern Asia or Southwest Asia is the westernmost subregion of Asia. Western Asia is a newer term for the area that encompasses the Middle East and the Near East. Due to the Eurocentricity of referring to an area as "east" of Europe, international organizations have replaced Middle East and Near East with Western Asia and West Asia. West Asia and Europe are collectively referred to as Western Eurasia.

vettor

03-25-2015, 07:31 AM

What is the deal with the semantic shenanigans?

Wikipedia

I do not know what you mean..

I stated an exacting reference to the marker and not a general one........middle-east is same as africa or europe ......what use is it in finding anything out about a marker by using those references of europe, middle-east, africa, asia etc!!

Christina

03-29-2015, 05:50 PM

My point is that there is a lot of pseudo-science and a lot of meaningless terms used, when it comes to the origins of any Haplogroup. The lack of meaning whatsoever is made worse by the fact that the Letters of Haplogroups (i.e., T, R, etc.) are absolutely useless artificial constructs that happened to be the first mutation discovered at a certain stop point when DNA testing was in its infancy.

The uselessness of the letter paradigm is best exemplified with T. Remember when it was K2? And people made statements like, "Haplogroup K is found from Europe to Australian Aboriginals?" The use of too high an upstream mutation (here, K), makes a statement like that lose all meaning.

Here's another way of putting it: Haplogroup F is a paragroup (super haplogroup) for G, I, J, and indeed, many more. What use would it be then to describe Hgs G, I, J, etc. as just F? You see, the TMCRA is too far back for that mutation to have any probative value.

We face the same thing with T. The subclades are too isolated, the TMCRA too far back, and the geographic ties too spread out, for there to be much of anything in common other than a letter assigned by humans for one of a zillion mutations.

As for the question, "who says T is Middle Eastern?"

The answer is, "just about everyone on the Internet." :(

Go look at what was posted by Maciamo on Eupedia, for example. And yes, I know Eupedia is a questionable source.

But we have the statement:

"The higher than average frequencies of haplogroup T in places like Cyprus, Sicily, Tunisia, Ibiza, Andalusia and the northern tip of Morocco suggest that haplogroup T could also have been dispersed around the Mediterranean by the Phoenicians (1200-800 BCE), and that ancient Phoenicia seemingly had a higher incidence of T than Lebanon does today (5%)."

In other words, "T was dispersed in a historical event [first fallacy] and let's assume a region had a high value of T [second shaky assumption/fallacy], and let's take this on faith even though the purported region or origin has very low levels [third fallacy, on which 1-2 rely]."

So you see, people really DO go out of there way to say that T is of recent Middle Eastern origin, from historical times, even twisting logic like that sentence above!

vettor

03-29-2015, 06:52 PM

As for the question, "who says T is Middle Eastern?"

The answer is, "just about everyone on the Internet." :(

Go look at what was posted by Maciamo on Eupedia, for example. And yes, I know Eupedia is a questionable source.

But we have the statement:

"The higher than average frequencies of haplogroup T in places like Cyprus, Sicily, Tunisia, Ibiza, Andalusia and the northern tip of Morocco suggest that haplogroup T could also have been dispersed around the Mediterranean by the Phoenicians (1200-800 BCE), and that ancient Phoenicia seemingly had a higher incidence of T than Lebanon does today (5%)."

In other words, "T was dispersed in a historical event [first fallacy] and let's assume a region had a high value of T [second shaky assumption/fallacy], and let's take this on faith even though the purported region or origin has very low levels [third fallacy, on which 1-2 rely]."

So you see, people really DO go out of there way to say that T is of recent Middle Eastern origin, from historical times, even twisting logic like that sentence above!

but papers on age of T has shown that Africa is the youngest for age, followed by arabian peninsula, then the levant ...........clearly as they find the age of the marker , they will find its origin.

but, the oldest T markers is LT-P326 ...........all L and T people have this marker...it is 49000years old............where is this marker found. I have only found it in areas streching from modern Gurarat, through western india, through afghan, turkenistan, uzbekistan and the western side of the caspian sea area.
Basically , without finding where this originates, I think your analysis is 100% wrong
SO, go and look for P326

next, the term middle-East is like africa or europe..............what value is it in terms of finding an origin?

lastly, T is no longer part of K2.............it is K1

vettor

03-30-2015, 08:55 PM

@Christina

Further on origins of P326 .........which is also called LT-L298, the following is the only claim by any company , this from Genetic Atlas

LT (L298) The Paleolithic marker of the Sind Valley

LT (L855)

LT (L206)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sind_Valley

edit: Not knowing about the sind valley, except it is part of Kashmir, I was wondering where can I find out paper of the ydna of kashmir. i only found this old one and its about pakistan ( I thought kashmr was india )
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/

Since LT-L298/P326 ......is stated by a company to be in Sind valley and that Yfull states IMO, that T is older than L
http://www.yfull.com/tree/LT/
I was wondering , how L origin seems to be in India and T seems to be further west, much further, .....I would have thought that T would have been next to the place of origin.......like maybe tajikstan/afhganistan or uzbekistan

Christina

04-04-2015, 08:46 PM

"What value is there in finding an origin?"

"[LT] is 49,000 years old."

Precisely my points.

vettor

04-04-2015, 09:21 PM

"What value is there in finding an origin?"

"[LT] is 49,000 years old."

Precisely my points.

Nearly all who follow genetics want to know the origin of a marker, be it theirs or not.

49000 years is older than the family of P ........which is R, Q, M and S markers..............which would mean the migration of LT was also before these markers as well .............that is one reason, to make logical sense of age of marker, origin of marker and where it went..................without the age, you might as well say R1 was the first marker in Europe

parasar

04-14-2015, 04:14 PM

"What value is there in finding an origin?"

"[LT] is 49,000 years old."

Precisely my points.

I think there is value.

If I were looking to find the origin of surname - in the past 4000 years - then perhaps not. But 40-50000 year old patterns may be of value to someone who is studying 'Gondwanan' vs 'Laurasian' mythologies. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Myth-Summary.htm
Some of the mythologies of Amerindians and Indians, for example, are very similar despite the geographical distance, and Y-P27 perhaps shows a connection.

vettor

05-02-2015, 07:11 AM

I think there is value.

If I were looking to find the origin of surname - in the past 4000 years - then perhaps not. But 40-50000 year old patterns may be of value to someone who is studying 'Gondwanan' vs 'Laurasian' mythologies. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Myth-Summary.htm
Some of the mythologies of Amerindians and Indians, for example, are very similar despite the geographical distance, and Y-P27 perhaps shows a connection.

how can there be such a huge discrepancy of 20000 years from yfull in regards to T and L when they where once joined

CT-M168 formed 84300 ybp, TMRCA 68300 ybp
CF-P143 formed 68300 ybp, TMRCA 65700 ybp
F-M89 formed 65700 ybp, TMRCA 48200 ybp
GHIJK-M3658 formed 48200 ybp, TMRCA 48000 ybp
HIJK-M578 formed 48000 ybp, TMRCA 48000 ybp
K - P128/PF5504 formed 46700 ybp, TMRCA 44600 ybp
K*
LT - PF5531/M2425 * L298/P326 * CTS3648/M2493, formed 44600 ybp, TMRCA 42000 ybp
L - Y5514 , formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 16500 ybp
T - CTS10618 * Y3821 * PF5610., formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 36700 ybp

Megalophias

05-02-2015, 07:36 AM

how can there be such a huge discrepancy of 20000 years from yfull in regards to T and L when they where once joined
LT - PF5531/M2425 * L298/P326 * CTS3648/M2493, formed 44600 ybp, TMRCA 42000 ybp
L - Y5514 , formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 16500 ybp
T - CTS10618 * Y3821 * PF5610., formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 36700 ybp

There is no discrepancy. They both have the same "formed" time, 42000 ybp, which is when they were joined. The TMRCA is the time that they expanded into their own subclades.

lgmayka

05-02-2015, 10:04 AM

The TMRCA is the time that they expanded into their own subclades.
Yes, and in addition we must remember that YFull can only work with the data they have--1000 Genomes samples, customer submissions, etc. There may exist some more anciently diverged branch of L that YFull simply hasn't come across.

JaG

05-02-2015, 12:09 PM

Actually YFull's tree for L is a L1a tree (by ISOOG's classification). It lacks any L1b or L2 sample as there no sequences available for analysis.

Megalophias

05-02-2015, 05:39 PM

Hallast et al did find a branch of L1* above L1a'c (ISOGG's new L1a) carried by two Turks, but it is different from L1b. Including this branch puts the age of L back a few thousand years to ~20 000 years old or so. But the position of L2 and L1b remains unknown.

brownie

05-06-2015, 04:32 AM

T because the bigest concentrations are ...assyria.....zargos mountains....dagestan ( a triangle incorporating, Armenians, azeri, lezkins and others, mainly east side of caspian sea.)

We must be looking at different frequency maps then, because I do not agree on that triangle. Excluding the Alawites and Druze, the triangle that you describe better defines the concentration of R1b in the ME. Not Y-DNA T.

Hi there, Humanist and Vettor. I do not agree with the data provided by you about the highest concentration/frequency of Y chromosome haplogroup T. Recently i have read a very important article about the origin of haplogroup T at the following page: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277. I strongly suggest everyone that is interested in finding the true origin of haplogroup T, to read this article. With kind regards to all of you.

Humanist

05-06-2015, 04:58 AM

Hi there, Humanist and Vettor. I do not agree with the data provided by you about the highest concentration/frequency of Y chromosome haplogroup T. Recently i have read a very important article about the origin of haplogroup T at the following page: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277. I strongly suggest everyone that is interested in finding the true origin of haplogroup T, to read this article. With kind regards to all of you.

What are you not agreeing with? The fact that some of the highest frequencies of Y-DNA T among modern populations occur in the Middle East? That is an irrefutable fact. The question of Y-DNA T's origin, however, is a different story. I do not know where it originated. And we will likely never know. What are you suggesting by your link? That Y-DNA T is associated with Turkic peoples?

Alanson

05-06-2015, 05:52 AM

I do know that the Y-DNA T peaks among the Chenechu tribal people of India

vettor

05-06-2015, 07:11 AM

I do know that the Y-DNA T peaks among the Chenechu tribal people of India

unsure...it states T as 15 % there

but the Dulik 2011 paper I was told has
Kazakhs Kazakh (Turkic) Kosh-Agachski Raion 19/49 38.8% < T YDna

I will only say this
LT-P326 is the union between ydna T and ydna L ...........its origins I have seen are stated in the Sind Valley ( Kashmir ), until someone states where L and T split apart is when I believe anything else. Any African, middle-east or Levant origin is only a dream

IMO, ............T ( ydna ) formed somewhere north or west of the Himalayas , maybe Pamir

brownie

05-06-2015, 08:29 PM

What are you not agreeing with? The fact that some of the highest frequencies of Y-DNA T among modern populations occur in the Middle East? That is an irrefutable fact. The question of Y-DNA T's origin, however, is a different story. I do not know where it originated. And we will likely never know. What are you suggesting by your link? That Y-DNA T is associated with Turkic peoples?

Yes, that is what i am suggesting. If you are using an argument like "highest frequencies", then please feel free to share the data that is backing up your argument. What are the numbers in the Middle East, which populations? Which studies, what is the name of the author of the academic paper? The link i found gives solid data about the Turk origin of haplogroup T, making a reliable analysis. On the contrary, the arguments that you are providing do not base on academic study results. Then, what does it base on, could you please enlighten me?

Humanist

05-06-2015, 08:39 PM

Yes, that is what i am suggesting. If you are using an argument like "highest frequencies", then please feel free to share the data that is backing up your argument. What are the numbers in the Middle East, which populations? Which studies, what is the name of the author of the academic paper? The link i found gives solid data about the Turk origin of haplogroup T, making a reliable analysis. On the contrary, the arguments that you are providing do not base on academic study results. Then, what does it base on, could you please enlighten me?

I honestly do not feel like regurgitating information that has been discussed many, many times before. There is enough information posted here and elsewhere on the forum. From both academic and publicly available data. If you believe that Y-DNA T is of Turkic origins, that is fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

brownie

05-06-2015, 11:47 PM

unsure...it states T as 15 % there

but the Dulik 2011 paper I was told has
Kazakhs Kazakh (Turkic) Kosh-Agachski Raion 19/49 38.8% < T YDna

I will only say this
LT-P326 is the union between ydna T and ydna L ...........its origins I have seen are stated in the Sind Valley ( Kashmir ), until someone states where L and T split apart is when I believe anything else. Any African, middle-east or Levant origin is only a dream

IMO, ............T ( ydna ) formed somewhere north or west of the Himalayas , maybe Pamir

M. A. Gubina(2013) finds 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup T among Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks who live in the Altai Republic.

Not to forget the finding of Pille Hallast(2015) in which he states that the Bhutanese person(between border of China and India) with ID "Bhu-1892" has the most basal haplotype of haplogroup T. This correlates with the T that was found among the Altaian Kazakh Turks and the Dravidians that speak a language that is related to the Ural-Altai language group.

Not to forget the finding of Hongyang Xu(2014), with 27,3%(3/11) of T that was found among the Quechua tribe of the Natives of Peru.

M. Eaaswarkhanth(2009) finds 28%(7/25) of haplogroup T among the Iranian Shia Muslim population who livein India. V. Grugni(2012) finds 7.9%(5/63) of haplogroup T among the Azerbaijan Turks who live in Iran. The ancient Turk tribes like the Hyderabad(18th-20th centuries AD), Ghaznavid(10th-12th centuries AD), Mamlukid(12th-13th centuries AD), Safavid until Kajar(15th-20th centuries AD), Timurid and Ilkhanid(13th-15th centuries AD) ruled the regions between modern Iran and India, and these ancient Turks were the ones that spread the Turko-Islam culture(which transformed later in some regions into a Turkish version of Shia) of Khalach Mansoor, Khoja Akhmet Yassawi and Haji Bektash Veli into India, Iran and Azerbaijan.

And what do you think about this schema?

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/prototurk-g-t-ver2.png

And what is your opinion about the K-R results found in ancient Mongolia in the unofficial preview paper of Kim Kijeong(2007), i think they could belong to L or T. Not to forget the L1a that was found among the 15th century Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar with Turk origin.

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/chung-ang-kim-kijeong-k-r.png

S. Sengupta(2006) finds 12,5%(1/8) of haplogroup T among the Xibo tribe whom speak an Altaic language.

Many more data is available at the source links i provide in my first post, page one (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267), page two (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=229), page three (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=87), and page four (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277&p=15223).

newtoboard

05-06-2015, 11:59 PM

M. A. Gubina(2013) finds 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup T among Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks who live in the Altai Republic.

Not to forget the finding of Pille Hallast(2015) in which he states that the Bhutanese person(between border of China and India) with ID "Bhu-1892" has the most basal haplotype of haplogroup T. This correlates with the T that was found among the Altaian Kazakh Turks and the Dravidians that speak a language that is related to the Ural-Altai language group.

Not to forget the finding of Hongyang Xu(2014), with 27,3%(3/11) of T that was found among the Quechua tribe of the Natives of Peru.

M. Eaaswarkhanth(2009) finds 28%(7/25) of haplogroup T among the Iranian Shia Muslim population who livein India. V. Grugni(2012) finds 7.9%(5/63) of haplogroup T among the Azerbaijan Turks who live in Iran. The ancient Turk tribes like the Hyderabad(18th-20th centuries AD), Ghaznavid(10th-12th centuries AD), Mamlukid(12th-13th centuries AD), Safavid until Kajar(15th-20th centuries AD), Timurid and Ilkhanid(13th-15th centuries AD) ruled the regions between modern Iran and India, and these ancient Turks were the ones that spread the Turko-Islam culture(which transformed later in some regions into a Turkish version of Shia) of Khalach Mansoor, Khoja Akhmet Yassawi and Haji Bektash Veli into India, Iran and Azerbaijan.

And what do you think about this schema?

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/prototurk-g-t-ver2.png

And what is your opinion about the K-R results found in ancient Mongolia in the unofficial preview paper of Kim Kijeong(2007), i think they could belong to L or T. Not to forget the L1a that was found among the 15th century Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar with Turk origin.

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/chung-ang-kim-kijeong-k-r.png

S. Sengupta(2006) finds 12,5%(1/8) of haplogroup T among the Xibo tribe whom speak an Altaic language.

Many more data is available at the source links i provide in my first post, page one (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267), page two (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=229), page three (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=87), and page four (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277&p=15223).

Dravidian isnt related to Altaic languages. And L1a, T and R1a in South Asia have nothing to do with Turkic intrusion. If that was the case we should see other y lineages common in Turks in South Asia as well. Also the idea that Turks made any sort of impact on tribals with y T is beyond laughable.

brownie

05-07-2015, 12:00 AM

I honestly do not feel like regurgitating information that has been discussed many, many times before. There is enough information posted here and elsewhere on the forum. From both academic and publicly available data. If you believe that Y-DNA T is of Turkic origins, that is fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

If you have an argument, you should back it up with your sources and show your data. If someone refuses to act this way, it means that he/she is not trustworthiness. I am sorry but the arguments of such people are not to be taken seriosly, my apologies but this is the reality...

newtoboard

05-07-2015, 12:01 AM

If you have an argument, you should back it up with your sources and show your data. If someone refuses to act this way, it means that he/she is not trustworthiness. I am sorry but the arguments of such people are not to be taken seriosly, my apologies but this is the reality...

You are the one making a radical claim. The onus of providing proof is on you. Because right now you are selling us a ridiculous theory and nobody is biting.

jesus

05-07-2015, 12:06 AM

M. A. Gubina(2013) finds 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup T among Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks who live in the Altai Republic.

Not to forget the finding of Pille Hallast(2015) in which he states that the Bhutanese person(between border of China and India) with ID "Bhu-1892" has the most basal haplotype of haplogroup T. This correlates with the T that was found among the Altaian Kazakh Turks and the Dravidians that speak a language that is related to the Ural-Altai language group.

Not to forget the finding of Hongyang Xu(2014), with 27,3%(3/11) of T that was found among the Quechua tribe of the Natives of Peru.

M. Eaaswarkhanth(2009) finds 28%(7/25) of haplogroup T among the Iranian Shia Muslim population who livein India. V. Grugni(2012) finds 7.9%(5/63) of haplogroup T among the Azerbaijan Turks who live in Iran. The ancient Turk tribes like the Hyderabad(18th-20th centuries AD), Ghaznavid(10th-12th centuries AD), Mamlukid(12th-13th centuries AD), Safavid until Kajar(15th-20th centuries AD), Timurid and Ilkhanid(13th-15th centuries AD) ruled the regions between modern Iran and India, and these ancient Turks were the ones that spread the Turko-Islam culture(which transformed later in some regions into a Turkish version of Shia) of Khalach Mansoor, Khoja Akhmet Yassawi and Haji Bektash Veli into India, Iran and Azerbaijan.

And what do you think about this schema?

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/prototurk-g-t-ver2.png

And what is your opinion about the K-R results found in ancient Mongolia in the unofficial preview paper of Kim Kijeong(2007), i think they could belong to L or T. Not to forget the L1a that was found among the 15th century Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar with Turk origin.

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/2051/chung-ang-kim-kijeong-k-r.png

S. Sengupta(2006) finds 12,5%(1/8) of haplogroup T among the Xibo tribe whom speak an Altaic language.

Many more data is available at the source links i provide in my first post, page one (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267), page two (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=229), page three (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=87), and page four (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277&p=15223).

Oh my god, not you again. Sayyid Ajjal was not of Turkic origin, just because Bukhara is in Uzbekistan doesn't mean everybody living there is Uzbek. Bukhara is still a mainly Tajik city, 800 years ago the whole region had more Iranic speaking people. No sources mention that Sayyid Ajjal is of a turkic origin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jFIORCFTA78C&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=yunnan+sayyid+mongols+prince&source=bl&ots=ScXC1w1mgx&sig=s4dvVWsiKCe49N64l3z6NmbX6O8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bIC5UJLXDqjn0QHd7IHYBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=yunnan%20sayyid%20mongols%20prince&f=false
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.5466.pdf

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 12:25 AM

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:13 AM

Dravidian isnt related to Altaic languages. And L1a, T and R1a in South Asia have nothing to do with Turkic intrusion. If that was the case we should see other y lineages common in Turks in South Asia as well. Also the idea that Turks made any sort of impact on tribals with y T is beyond laughable.

It is actually very related to the Altaic languages, in fact Altaic, Uralic and Dravidian languages are like brothers, and they all are originated from the Proto Turk Sumerian language. I advise you to read the article that is located at the following page: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10966 . A short quotation of it:

Modern Kannada, a Dravidian language of great antiquity, possesses several words which bear a striking similarity, in sound and meaning, to words in modern Turkish. Another apparent common feature is ‘agglutination’, with several suffixes being nearly identical in the two languages. These may indicate that early Altaic (the basis of Turkish) was spoken in the Indian sub-continent prior to the arrival of the Indo-Iranian peoples. It appears that the languages of the sub-continent may have evolved from early forms of Altaic, Indo-Iranian and Dravidian. If borne out by further study, these preliminary findings would be of immense significance to the cultural and linguistic history of the south Asian region.

R1a is found among the ancient samples of Turk Sakha's and the Eastern Turk Huns(Xiongnu), is there any older ethnically non Turk(linguistic and historical evidence) ancient dna study about a South Asian grave in which L1a, T and R1a are found? You forget that since the White Huns(Hephthalites), Turks have ruled South Asian regions for approximately 1500 years(400 - 1900 AD). And i am not talking about an intrusion, i am talking about the fact that the Dravidians are just like the Turks, the descendants of the Proto Turk Sumerians(Kangars/Kengers)(< 5000 BCE). The one with insufficient historical IQ is the one that doesnt make sense, and is to be not taken seriously :)

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:19 AM

Oh my god, not you again. Sayyid Ajjal was not of Turkic origin, just because Bukhara is in Uzbekistan doesn't mean everybody living there is Uzbek. Bukhara is still a mainly Tajik city, 800 years ago the whole region had more Iranic speaking people. No sources mention that Sayyid Ajjal is of a turkic origin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jFIORCFTA78C&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=yunnan+sayyid+mongols+prince&source=bl&ots=ScXC1w1mgx&sig=s4dvVWsiKCe49N64l3z6NmbX6O8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bIC5UJLXDqjn0QHd7IHYBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=yunnan%20sayyid%20mongols%20prince&f=false
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.5466.pdf

Between the years 1400 - 1500 AD, the modern family descendants of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and later Zheng He(great grandson of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar), who lived in the Yuan state, belonged to the Y-DNA haplogroup L1a. Again, according to the academicians that are in fact Chinese and USA CIA intelligence agents, Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar was of Persian origin, however the fact is that this not logical conclusion is a big LIE! Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin.

At the source named "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah" it is clearly mentioned that Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin. You all know that between the 11th and 13th centuries AD, Uzbekistan-Bukhara was ruled by the Turkish state of the Khwarazm Shahs that were of Turkish ethnic origin. Because of the by the strengthening of the Selcukid and Mongol states, the state of the Khwarazm Shahs is falling down, and because of this the family with Turkish ethnic origin of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar becomes a state official of the empire of Genghis Khan. And also, it is already a fact that the family trees of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar shows that his family settled into China within the Song dynasty(960 - 1279 AD). And this shows, that during the handover(transition) period between the Khwarazm Shah and the Mongol states, his family settled into the lands of the Mongol empire(China is part of the Mongol empire). While this whole subject is that simple, it is very worrisome to see that the Chinese and Germanic academicians which have hate crime feelings(against Turks) in their hearths, are on purpose making such conclusions that are not in accordance with the science and logics. Whe should be cautious about these hate crame activities and these are situations in which it is necessary to take some measures. The fact that the Europoid(West Eurasian) Y-DNA haplogroup L1a is found within such a deep-rooted Turkish family, shows again that during the Proto Turk, Sakha, Hun and Gök Türk periods these type of Europoid Y-DNA haplogroups could be found, in future ancient dna studies.

SOURCE: "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah"
https://www.google.com/search?q=+Journal+Institute+of+Muslim+Minority+Aff airs&btnG=Boeken+zoeken&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=nl&gws_rd=ssl#hl=nl&tbm=bks&q=Journal+Institute+of+Muslim+Minority+Affairs+-+Volumes+7-8

(Original from the University of Virginia)Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah (1986). Journal Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Volumes 7-8. The Institute. p. 385. Retrieved December 20, 2011. "certain that Muslims of Central Asian originally played a major role in the Yuan (Mongol) conquest and subsequent rule of south-west China, as a result of which a distinct Muslim community was established in Yunnan by the late 13th century AD. Foremost amongst these soldier-administrators was Sayyid al-Ajall Shams al-Din Umar al-Bukhari (Ch. Sai-tien-ch'ih shan-ssu-ting). a court official and general of Turkic origin who participated in the Mongol invasion of Szechwan ... And Yunnan in c. 1252, and who became Yuan Governor of the latter province in 1274–79. Shams al-Din - who is widely believed by the Muslims of Yunnan to have introduced Islam to the region - is represented as a wise and benevolent ruler, who successfully "pacified and comforted" the people of Yunnan, and who is credited with building Confucian temples, as well as mosques and schools"

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 01:30 AM

It is actually very related to the Altaic languages, in fact Altaic, Uralic and Dravidian languages are like brothers, and they all are originated from the Proto Turk Sumerian language. I advise you to read the article that is located at the following page: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10966 . A short quotation of it

Putting the turkocentric/turanist nonsense aside, do you actually have anything to back up your outlandish claims?

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:31 AM

You are the one making a radical claim. The onus of providing proof is on you. Because right now you are selling us a ridiculous theory and nobody is biting.

Haha lol, you must be kidding, or maybe you have some reading problems because i wrote down my arguments, or does your IQ not allow to make any logical determinations? If so, feel free to not participate in the discussion :)

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:33 AM

Eh, "Altaic" doesn't even count as a valid phylum in my book, so there's that.

You are quite informative, arent you :)

Moderator

05-07-2015, 01:36 AM

Haha lol, you must be kidding, or maybe you have some reading problems because i wrote down my arguments, or does your IQ not allow to make any logical determinations? If so, feel free to not participate in the discussion :)

[MOD] Please be advised that you are in breach of site rule 3.11:

Invectives and posts devoid of substance (e.g. threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content or triviality) will be considered junk postings and deleted. Anthrogenica encourages its members to engage in debate with each other, but discussions that degenerate into little more than flaming and inanity will be considered spam (see Rule 3.9).

This is a WARNING. Any further violations of the forum's rules will result in the temporary or permanent revocation of your posting privileges. Thank you for your cooperation.

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:36 AM

Putting the turkocentric/turanist nonsense aside, do you actually have anything to back up your outlandish claims?

Putting your hatred against Turks and Turkish history aside, do you have anything to say about the so the many content i have shared in this topic? Or cant you read? I can you help you with that, i am serious.

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 01:36 AM

Haha lol, you must be kidding, or maybe you have some reading problems because i wrote down my arguments, or does your IQ not allow to make any logical determinations? If so, feel free to not participate in the discussion :)

Refrain from using inflammatory language, you've already been warned. Don't force me to reiterate.

Putting your hatred against Turks and Turkish history aside, do you have anything to say about the so the many content i have shared in this topic? Or cant you read? I can you help you with that, i am serious.

Again, drop the inquisitive and downright insulting tone immediately, or else.

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:40 AM

[MOD] Please be advised that you are in breach of site rule 3.11:

This is a WARNING. Any further violations of the forum's rules will result in the temporary or permanent revocation of your posting privileges. Thank you for your cooperation.

Seriously, i think you did not read the messages of newtoboard, Agamemnon and Humanist, full with off topic content :) I mean no disrespect.

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 01:42 AM

Seriously, i think you did not read the messages of newtoboard, Agamemnon and Humanist, full with off topic content :) I mean no disrespect.

That's certainly not what this is sounding like. Once more, endorse a civilized approach without engaging in ad hominem attacks and inflammatory language and everything will be fine. This is your last warning.

brownie

05-07-2015, 01:43 AM

Refrain from using inflammatory language, you've already been warned. Don't force me to reiterate.

Again, drop the inquisitive and downright insulting tone immediately, or else.

Ok, mister Adolf Hitler, wannabe Neo Nazi unscientific Turk hater, i will do as you say, but you need to first obey your own rules, then accuse me with non logical arguments.

jesus

05-07-2015, 01:47 AM

Putting your hatred against Turks and Turkish history aside, do you have anything to say about the so the many content i have shared in this topic? Or cant you read? I can you help you with that, i am serious.

Just because some of us don't agree with your outlandish claims, that doesn't make us haters of turks and their history. " Turkish " was a word that referred to so many different groups and tribes, although most of them spoke some kind of Turkic or Mongolic languages. Turkish now is used to refer to Anatolian Turks, while Turkic is used to refer to other to central asian and other Turkic speaking groups. I don't get how what happened in Bukhara and China is part of your Turkish Anatolian history.
Unless if you meant Turkish = Turkic.

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 01:55 AM

ADW_1981

05-07-2015, 02:00 AM

Rukha

05-07-2015, 02:03 AM

jesus

05-07-2015, 02:12 AM

The bulk of bureaucratic officials (even in Turkic dynasties) were of Iranic origin so his prominent role in governance also points to a non-Turkic background.

There was also significant influence in the Mongol and Mughal empires. Persians from Qazvin and other cities were well represented in the Imperial Mongol guard, along with other "Muslims". The Mongol empire was multicultural and Mongols themselves were very practical people.

ursula

05-07-2015, 02:16 AM

Brownie has been banned, trust me I've dealt with Turanists by the past and there's no way to make them see reason (and that's putting the personal attacks and inflammatory language aside).
I trust this is for the best, we can all return to discussing this topic like grown-ups now.

I was reading this topic, and came across this awfull comment. I condemn you for acting as a racist. And i am not a Turk, i am an English female women, i am a lawyer. Is there another admin that can demand accountability of such a inhuman and lowly action? You are openly confessing that you banned that user for just being a Turk. This is a serious crime, namely a hate crime, which is punishable by law, i am just suggesting that you should be careful when posting such racist comments.

jesus

05-07-2015, 02:19 AM

I was reading this topic, and came across this awfull comment. I condemn you for acting as a racist. And i am not a Turk, i am an English female women, i am a lawyer. Is there another admin that can demand accountability of such a inhuman and lowly action? You are openly confessing that you banned that user for just being a Turk. This is a serious crime, namely a hate crime, which is punishable by law, i am just suggesting that you should be careful when posting such racist comments.

Yes, a native English woman would refer to herself as a an " English FEMALE women "

ursula

05-07-2015, 02:19 AM

The bulk of bureaucratic officials (even in Turkic dynasties) were of Iranic origin so his prominent role in governance also points to a non-Turkic background.

What do you have to say about the sources and arguments provided in this post?

Between the years 1400 - 1500 AD, the modern family descendants of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and later Zheng He(great grandson of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar), who lived in the Yuan state, belonged to the Y-DNA haplogroup L1a. Again, according to the academicians that are in fact Chinese and USA CIA intelligence agents, Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar was of Persian origin, however the fact is that this not logical conclusion is a big LIE! Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin.

At the source named "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah" it is clearly mentioned that Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin. You all know that between the 11th and 13th centuries AD, Uzbekistan-Bukhara was ruled by the Turkish state of the Khwarazm Shahs that were of Turkish ethnic origin. Because of the by the strengthening of the Selcukid and Mongol states, the state of the Khwarazm Shahs is falling down, and because of this the family with Turkish ethnic origin of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar becomes a state official of the empire of Genghis Khan. And also, it is already a fact that the family trees of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar shows that his family settled into China within the Song dynasty(960 - 1279 AD). And this shows, that during the handover(transition) period between the Khwarazm Shah and the Mongol states, his family settled into the lands of the Mongol empire(China is part of the Mongol empire). While this whole subject is that simple, it is very worrisome to see that the Chinese and Germanic academicians which have hate crime feelings(against Turks) in their hearths, are on purpose making such conclusions that are not in accordance with the science and logics. Whe should be cautious about these hate crame activities and these are situations in which it is necessary to take some measures. The fact that the Europoid(West Eurasian) Y-DNA haplogroup L1a is found within such a deep-rooted Turkish family, shows again that during the Proto Turk, Sakha, Hun and Gök Türk periods these type of Europoid Y-DNA haplogroups could be found, in future ancient dna studies.

SOURCE: "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah"
https://www.google.com/search?q=+Journal+Institute+of+Muslim+Minority+Aff airs&btnG=Boeken+zoeken&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=nl&gws_rd=ssl#hl=nl&tbm=bks&q=Journal+Institute+of+Muslim+Minority+Affairs+-+Volumes+7-8

(Original from the University of Virginia)Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah (1986). Journal Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Volumes 7-8. The Institute. p. 385. Retrieved December 20, 2011. "certain that Muslims of Central Asian originally played a major role in the Yuan (Mongol) conquest and subsequent rule of south-west China, as a result of which a distinct Muslim community was established in Yunnan by the late 13th century AD. Foremost amongst these soldier-administrators was Sayyid al-Ajall Shams al-Din Umar al-Bukhari (Ch. Sai-tien-ch'ih shan-ssu-ting). a court official and general of Turkic origin who participated in the Mongol invasion of Szechwan ... And Yunnan in c. 1252, and who became Yuan Governor of the latter province in 1274–79. Shams al-Din - who is widely believed by the Muslims of Yunnan to have introduced Islam to the region - is represented as a wise and benevolent ruler, who successfully "pacified and comforted" the people of Yunnan, and who is credited with building Confucian temples, as well as mosques and schools"

ursula

05-07-2015, 02:26 AM

Yes, a native English woman would refer to herself as a an " English FEMALE women "
Me, as a woman, see that you guys are not men enough to discuss the truth, in stead you are so afraid and so full with hatred you seem to be lost and far away from science, logica and truth. I again advise all of you to be careful, as a lawyer, you are openly committing a hate crime, this is punishable by law, and i have recorded all comments.

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 02:31 AM

I was reading this topic, and came across this awfull comment. I condemn you for acting as a racist. And i am not a Turk, i am an English female women, i am a lawyer. Is there another admin that can demand accountability of such a inhuman and lowly action? You are openly confessing that you banned that user for just being a Turk. This is a serious crime, namely a hate crime, which is punishable by law, i am just suggesting that you should be careful when posting such racist comments.

Tamam, sen Türk değilsin, anlıyorum ya... Just in case you didn't know yet, the inhuman racist thinks you deserve nothing short of an IP ban for creating a sockpuppet account, but that's just me (not quite (http://www.anthrogenica.com/faq.php)). I'll be sure to discuss this with the other mods of course.

vettor

05-07-2015, 06:10 AM

Hmm...11 posts then banned.

Lesson is ..............never mix nationalism and genetics ...........they have never married well together.

!?!! I think I listening to Jaqen H'ghar too much

King

05-07-2015, 06:28 AM

I kinda wish there was no such thing as haplogroups and the such. It's just way too politicized, propagandized, and prone to sensitivity. To me, its just not worth it. Dam you universe for making up such a thing. :D

Agamemnon

05-07-2015, 07:46 AM

It's quite obvious to me there's an acquired stupidity epidemic spreading around, and it relies on the dishonest use of genetics, linguistics, archeology and anthropology in order to produce a political statement... And this mixture of schorlarship and politics is something I've always fought, since I was unlucky enough to witness it in academia. Unfortunately, the trend is growing.

Christina

06-09-2015, 05:14 AM

What a most unfortunate exchange.

I used to stubbornly resist the postmodernist concept that, "everyone has a bias; it's impossible to view the world without one's own biases." Now I conclude it's mostly true.

Boreas

03-31-2016, 05:54 PM

Poor sods. Depriving this entire site, by provoking and then banning a rather qualified entusiast.

Fredrik Baarth would be rotating in his grave.

Byo.

Monk307

03-17-2017, 06:05 PM

I have my own theories.

I believe my Haplogroup originated in East Africa. This would make sense.

vettor

03-17-2017, 06:21 PM

I have my own theories.

I believe my Haplogroup originated in East Africa. This would make sense.

Your SNP was created in East Africa, maybe...........but every T1a person has the positive Haplogroup LT or L298/P326 , you cannot escape this. LT belongs to the K haplogroup family and the Haplogroup K origins are only north of the Zargos mountains ..............either modern Iran, Pakistan, Tajikistan or Pamir areas

Haplogroup LT or L298/P326, also known as K1
Y-DNA haplogroup LT is an old lineage widely distributed at low concentrations. It was established approximately 30,000-40,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia.

Monk307

03-24-2017, 05:43 PM

Your SNP was created in East Africa, maybe...........but every T1a person has the positive Haplogroup LT or L298/P326 , you cannot escape this. LT belongs to the K haplogroup family and the Haplogroup K origins are only north of the Zargos mountains ..............either modern Iran, Pakistan, Tajikistan or Pamir areas

Haplogroup LT or L298/P326, also known as K1
Y-DNA haplogroup LT is an old lineage widely distributed at low concentrations. It was established approximately 30,000-40,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia.

Isn't that theoretical though? I respect that you have more knowledge about this than me.

I'm T1a1a. Would certainly love to do more research on it.

vettor

03-24-2017, 06:30 PM

Isn't that theoretical though? I respect that you have more knowledge about this than me.

I'm T1a1a. Would certainly love to do more research on it.

T is split in 4 groups

T1a1 .
T1a2
T1a3
T2 .............split off before T1a-M70 formed ...........T2 people only found in Germany, Bhutan and Azeri area ( The australian sample is a German immigrant )

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

What SNP's do you have ?

The split in the 4 groups are as far apart as R1a and R1b are to genetics

Monk307

03-27-2017, 01:04 AM

T is split in 4 groups

T1a1 .
T1a2
T1a3
T2 .............split off before T1a-M70 formed ...........T2 people only found in Germany, Bhutan and Azeri area ( The australian sample is a German immigrant )

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

What SNP's do you have ?

The split in the 4 groups are as far apart as R1a and R1b are to genetics

How do I find out? It says Haplogroup T on 23andme. Where do I get the SNP's?

vettor

03-29-2017, 05:48 PM

How do I find out? It says Haplogroup T on 23andme. Where do I get the SNP's?

use this tool ...............it will give you a start

http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html

Monk307

04-03-2017, 01:34 PM

Cheers! Thanks a lot

vettor

05-31-2017, 07:03 PM

vettor

06-05-2017, 06:33 PM

A recent russian 2017 paper has this below for ydna of the kazikstan

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/kazaks_zpssvqmp3of.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/kazaks_zpssvqmp3of.jpg.html)

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/kazaks%202_zpstq50eg57.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/kazaks%202_zpstq50eg57.jpg.html)

with the 6% of T1 represents 48% of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyn people

this could be also an area where the haplogroup LT could have split apart

meyram and momyn areas are aligned with the ashina people who have a lot of T-M184 ...........they are also linked with the sogdrian language

Etymology

Findley assumes that the name "Ashina" comes from one of the Saka languages of central Asia and means "blue" (gök in Turkic). The color is identified with the east, so that Göktürk, another name for the Turkic empire, meant the "Turks of the East".[6] This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin".[10] "The term bori, used to identify the ruler's retinue as 'wolves', probably also derived from one of the Iranian languages", Carter Vaughin Findley has observed.[13]

Writing
The Ashina writing system was taken from the Iranian Sogdian language. The letters used in the construction of the memorial stele describing the heroic exploits of the members of the ruling Kagan kind, were Sogdian.

vettor

08-08-2017, 06:44 PM

I thought I better re do these below as photobucket has gone dead for me

https://s20.postimg.org/5x4kyfdz1/kazaks.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/qu0t33bzt/)

https://s20.postimg.org/rxkxf1wn1/kazaks_2.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/egnyw6mbd/)

BTW, my thinking on where T originate has shifted to basically what the T project state..............the area on the border of Iran and turkmenistan

Nasser

08-13-2017, 07:28 AM

Based on yfull the oldest T indicates northern Middle East or Nearby Armenia the oldest T subclade on yfull belongs to an Armenian and the diversity all points to Iraq Armenia or Lebanon. Modern t clades don't indicate anything so we need ancient DNA to confirm the origin of T.

vettor

08-19-2017, 09:00 PM

AndresT

08-25-2017, 06:46 PM

Armenia and Bhutan the oldest IIRC

Germany+Bhutan (Subclade T2a) Caucasus (subclade T2b), T2-PH110 the most basally splitted known branch of T-M184

vettor

08-26-2017, 11:23 PM

Germany+Bhutan (Subclade T2a) Caucasus (subclade T2b), T2-PH110 the most basally splitted known branch of T-M184

I do not know what you mean by T2a and T2b

But I have mapped in my opinion, based on results, most possible paths for the 3 majors T lines with ybp ages

https://s20.postimg.org/cxwr940ot/map_t_origin.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/eppq40k1l/)

Red = T origins ( note TL marker is set at 45400ybp by yfull )

Blue = T1a1 line

Green = T1a2 line

Brown = T1a3 line

vettor

03-31-2018, 06:34 PM

From new paper Central and South Asian DNA , T haplogroup found in Tepe Hissar Iran ( 50km south of caspian sea ) 2 samples and another sample from Gonur Turkmenistan ( this is the oldest of the T samples found in the paper )

Tepe -
sample I2512 T ydna HV Mtdna

sample I2514 T1a ydna W3b mtdna

At Tepe-Hissar found apart from T ydna sample , ydna from J2a1, L2 and H3

Gonur
sample I1781 T ydna unknown mtdna

At Gonur apart from T ydna found only ydna samples of J1, E1b1, A, BT, CT, P ..............seems like a very old area

vettor

05-10-2018, 06:56 PM

DA125, T1a3a1a1-Y13279, is the oldest or one of the two oldest samples 1738 yBP belonging to the Kang-Sogdians.
mtdna is U2e2
.
.
.
Gedrosia K12 Oracle
.
Admix Results (sorted):
.
# Population Percent
1 SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 36.17
2 EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 20.93
3 CAUCASUS 16.27
4 BALOCHI 13.25
5 INDO_TIBETAN 3.56
6 SUB_SAHARAN 2.73
7 SW_ASIAN 2.59
8 E_SIBERIAN 1.82
9 S_INDIAN 1.62
10 W_SIBERIAN 1.07

vettor

07-26-2018, 05:27 AM

interesting

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

bmoney

07-26-2018, 07:37 AM

interesting

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

Nice! posting this in the L thread too

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

If this below paragraph is true, we might have to merge the L and T threads into an LT thread

In order to demonstrate the usefulness of LT-L298 as a marker for linguistic research,
it is necessary to deviate slightly from the standard Y-chromosome nomenclature. Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup.

vettor

07-26-2018, 05:23 PM

Nice! posting this in the L thread too

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

If this below paragraph is true, we might have to merge the L and T threads into an LT thread

In order to demonstrate the usefulness of LT-L298 as a marker for linguistic research,
it is necessary to deviate slightly from the standard Y-chromosome nomenclature. Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup.

if you look at the chart 5.11.3 for LT-L298 and then the latest papers marked in the chart data...ie, Balanovsky 2017 and Zhabagin 2017 you see a trend that TL-L298 only appears around the caspian sea......clearly then , this area is from where haplo L and haplo T split apart

I will check these papers out individually

bmoney

07-27-2018, 01:09 AM

if you look at the chart 5.11.3 for LT-L298 and then the latest papers marked in the chart data...ie, Balanovsky 2017 and Zhabagin 2017 you see a trend that TL-L298 only appears around the caspian sea......clearly then , this area is from where haplo L and haplo T split apart

I will check these papers out individually

Keep us updated

vettor

07-27-2018, 06:07 PM

Keep us updated

The conclusion I seem to always get is that genetically, LT-L298 is part of the Kartvelian and Laz language groups.........fits in with Kara-Axes culture later on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

The Kalash are also prevelant but not as both genetic and linguistic as the others
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people
they migrated late from Central Asia
The Kalash are considered to be indigenous people, with their ancestors migrating to Chitral from Central Asia in the 2nd century BC

bmoney

07-28-2018, 12:44 AM

pegasus

07-28-2018, 01:04 AM

The conclusion I seem to always get is that genetically, LT-L298 is part of the Kartvelian and Laz language groups.........fits in with Kara-Axes culture later on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

The Kalash are also prevelant but not as both genetic and linguistic as the others
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people
they migrated late from Central Asia
The Kalash are considered to be indigenous people, with their ancestors migrating to Chitral from Central Asia in the 2nd century BC

Thats not true at all , because there are people genetically exactly like them in the Swat 3Kya, less than a 100 km from where Kalash live in their current locations. Considering its very close affinity with Vedic Sanskrit its not possible they arrived in the Antiquity. At this date Central Asia was habited by Sogdians, Bactrians and Sakas.

bmoney

07-28-2018, 02:05 AM

pegasus

07-28-2018, 02:09 AM

Which Swat IA samples are Kalash-like?

Barikot are exact and some of the Udegram ones

vettor

07-28-2018, 05:54 PM

My LT haplogroup SNP's from yfull yreport

https://s20.postimg.cc/ods829aul/lt-l298forme.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/o10tw2skp/)

vettor

07-28-2018, 05:57 PM

Thats not true at all , because there are people genetically exactly like them in the Swat 3Kya, less than a 100 km from where Kalash live in their current locations. Considering its very close affinity with Vedic Sanskrit its not possible they arrived in the Antiquity. At this date Central Asia was habited by Sogdians, Bactrians and Sakas.

I am not talking about recent peoples

Besides Bactrians , sogdians, tajiks are south-Central asian people

There is even sample DA125 who is ancient sogdrian and is T1a3 marker ( with mtdna of U2e2)
T1a3a1a1-Y13279 is found in modern Kazakhstan (Predicted) and among Pathans (Predicted)as well as in Europe (Confirmed)and Irak (Confirmed).
https://s20.postimg.cc/wxbm06qyl/da125.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
Since today there are very many eastern saudis with T1a3 haplogroup ...one would say they all came from the north , around the caspian sea/Aral sea areas