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George Chandler
08-02-2014, 10:05 PM
I'm currently wondering if there is a closer relationship between L513 & the 9919 S1051 group. The reason I'm wondering is the 9919's ancestral value of 12 at DYS640 which would have had to happen within the 5 main patriarch SNP's below DF13 or just before. We know it's likely not ancestral to DF13 but could have occurred with a cluster of DF13's. The majority of L513's who have a 12 at DYS640 seem to have Scottish ancestry (quite a few highland Scots) and most of the 9919 S1051's also have Scottish ancestry. The majority of L513's have an 11 at 640 so it would have had to have back mutated early on and if that's the case it tells us something too.

There seems to me two possibilities with one being they are independent mutations of one another. The second being that a group of likely Bell Beaker DF13's located in what is now Scotland had the mutation of 12 at 640 and this was prior to either L513 or S1051. If it's true and there was a back mutation to 11 early on post L513 they should be in greater numbers than they are but they aren't. This is similar to the S1051's which when compared with other brother hap's of the same age there are very few S1051's. So what happened to them? My opinion and theory is that both clusters were the natives of Scotland before the Picts were called Picts and were mixed within the Pictish tribes.

Any thoughts?
George

Jon
08-09-2014, 07:12 PM
Hi George,

In our L513 group there is a lot of new clarity appearing, which others are better placed than me to describe and comment on. Two of our groups in particular share the 640=12; the biggest group of L513, characterised as L193 (which lies under the newly discovered 5668), and the group formerly known as A2 (also under 5668). L193 is overwhelmingly Scottish, mostly western, both south-west and Argyll, as well as up into the highlands. A2 (also known as Airghiella II), is very Ireland-heavy, dominated by surnames like Maguire and Byrne. As I understand it however, analysis has yielded that the 640=12 is not indicative of a direct link between them, despite the sharing of 5668. I'm afraid I am not technically adept enough to explain why.

However I have also noticed that L513 (and very especially L193) is tilted towards Scotland. Brythonic Celts, Goidelic Celts, Picts, etc. who knows...? The fact is that L193 seems to have 'exploded' in genetics terms in the south-west of Scotland sometime in the first few centuries AD. Which leaves the field quite open, I'd say!! I have been very interested in historical work on the so-called Gall-Gaidheal, who gave the region of Galloway its name. They are traditionally understood to have been Norse-Gaels, but I read that the word 'Gall' simply means 'stranger', and that the mixture could also have related to Britto-Gaels or even Pict-Gaels. They hagen dominance as from the 800's. It was a melting pot down there for sure, even back then.

I would also love to hear others's thoughts on this one.

Jon

George Chandler
08-09-2014, 07:38 PM
If the 12 at 640 was ancestral for L513 it should be found in many if not most of the different lines south of S5668. Then there would have had to have been a back mutation from 12 to 11 at the S6365 line so that is pretty unlikely. If the 640 = 12 was being found in most L513 people south of S5668 I would say yes it could be ancestral.

I agree with you that it was found within those communities and interesting the number which are from the highlands.

Thanks Jon

George

Jon
08-10-2014, 08:44 AM
Hi George,
Yes, I always assumed with 640 being slow moving that a shared value within L513 would be significant. Who knows...as I say, there were some persuasive arguments why not over at the Yahoo group, but I should best let others comment, I have real trouble sometimes grasping the science bit!

As far as I understand, the 6365/5668 split is pretty old, if not ancient. The next big splitter down from 5668 is the 'new' A7. This is shared by L193, and a good number of folks who have strong Argyll presence, e.g. MacPherson (D1). My gut instinct is a Scottish link with the west coast, then an older link with some of the Irish groups of A2 (borne out by the more ancient 5668 link). The intriguing thing is who were they? The timing and locations make many people a possibility...I've always thought Strathclyde Britons unlikely, as the big Welsh groups of L513 are over on the 6365 side, and the Strathclyders were recorded as having moved down there. 5668 seems to me to be Scottish/Irish. Which would leave Pictish, on the Scottish side, and/or Scotto-Irish. But this is all 'gut feeling' speculation on my part.

Would any of this tie in with information you guys have on the 9919 groups?

Jon

George Chandler
08-10-2014, 03:43 PM
The majority of 9919's have Scottish ancestry which makes me suspect that they were part of the original Beaker migration along the NE coast 3,500 to 4,000 years ago. I was hoping to see a cluster of DF13's who had a 12 at DYS640 where the 9919 S1051's and the A7 line coming from L513 was born out of the same mix but until a large percentage of those who are S5668 start showing up with a 12 it's likely an independent mutation. Given the age of the S1051's which is similar to the L513's it should be found in much greater numbers than we are. I was thinking the same thing about the A7 or L193's in terms of numbers given the actual age. We have the 5 main Patriarch SNP's below DF13 and all but 1 test are positive for all 5. I don't think all of the lines were found within Pictish culture but I suspect most were. There is nothing else in history I can see which would explain the bottleneck of a haplogroup which was so old for that area. Some sort of unrecorded plague event in history? Being that it appears similar with the L193's and they're ancient as well it makes me suspect they could have been part of the same event. So far all results are negative for the main S1051 SNP's in non 9919's from Continental Europe.

The interesting part too is that we really don't have a large showing of Welsh within the S1051 group. I know of a couple S1051's but my suspicion is that they have a more recent Welsh ancestry. If I recall the first Beakers in Ireland and the pottery remains found in NE Scotland are similar in age so either it was a larger group than we think that came over or they went 2 different directions when leaving mainland. Even if they moved around a lot their population would have had to explode. I've wondered if the original Beakers coming over decided to split with one exploring the south coast of Britain then settling in what is now Wales and Ireland with the other group going north into the north eastern shores of Scotland. Being that the pottery found in NE Scotland is closest to that found in the Rhine Region I don't believe they were originally from the Iberian group.

The 9919A1's identify themselves as Cumbric Celt's or Strathclyde Britians and I'm going with that until other evidence presents itself. It's interesting though that some Picts were also absorbed into the Scotti population when they took control of the Argyll area.

George

Jon
08-10-2014, 04:27 PM
Thanks George.

I've always been amazed at how exclusive L193 is to Scotland, and it seems like 9919 is similar? I mean most hg's have at least some spread, but L193 seems pretty centred on Scotland, and specifically south west. It does trickle up into the NE, but it really clings to Ayrshire/Galloway, and has close relatives (D1) in Argyll and the islands. This is what made me think of some kind of Scotti. The missing Welsh connection has always confused me, as that would be a decent link to Britons. Also, as far as I know there is not much representation of L193 up in the old heartlands of the Picts in the NE.

The latest theory I heard was that there was a major spread of L193 in the SW around 400-600 AD (very roughly!); perhaps incoming people from the north/west. The names also support a majority Scottish ancestry.

I wonder then if Pictish lines could account for the presence of L193 in the west?

Jon

George Chandler
08-10-2014, 07:43 PM
The majority of the S1051's seem to have Scottish ancestry and the low numbers (given the age) are unusual. I personally don't have any known paternal ancestry leading back to Scotland. Family lines do break and family lore can be wrong so you have to go by the genetic evidence. The only way to know for sure is to try and map the different SNP trees and see if connections can be made. Right now the cluster evidence is screaming modern Scotland as the homeland.

It's possible L193 found it's way into Pictish culture but like the S1051's it's difficult to prove until there is a genetic match with known Pictish remains. The sheer lack of numbers given the age of both make me think they were both part of that culture.

George

Rory Cain
09-03-2015, 08:02 PM
I don't know what difference it makes to the above conversation but there is also a spread of L513 along the west Coast of Ireland. O'Shea in co Kerry, Cain/Keane in southwest Co Clare, Devine in Co Donegal. From there it continues up the west Coast of Scotland as noted I the above conversation, Galloway, Ayrshire, Argyllshire & the Isles.

I suspect that this makes it old, and would tend to support George's idea of early settlement like the Bell Beakers rather than much later settlements like the Gall-Gael. But I confess I am not an expert on L513 itself.

TigerMW
09-03-2015, 09:11 PM
I don't know what difference it makes to the above conversation but there is also a spread of L513 along the west Coast of Ireland. O'Shea in co Kerry, Cain/Keane in southwest Co Clare, Devine in Co Donegal. From there it continues up the west Coast of Scotland as noted I the above conversation, Galloway, Ayrshire, Argyllshire & the Isles.

I suspect that this makes it old, and would tend to support George's idea of early settlement like the Bell Beakers rather than much later settlements like the Gall-Gael. But I confess I am not an expert on L513 itself.
I think that L513 might end up like many of the other subclades we look at. Just as you said it appears quite old and therefore different components might be different things after an initial early dispersion.

I'll just throw this one in as an example that I thought was quite interesting. One element of L513 is what has always been cluster "B2". It is marked by L705, L706 (both not totally reliable), CTS6621 and a few other things including Z16400.

TV show host Tom Bergeron explored his roots from La Rochelle, France. I was not aware of the history with Louie the 13th's early 1600's siege of the non-Catholic city.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/28/who-do-you-think-you-are-tom-bergeron-french-roots
http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/who-do-you-think-you-are/videos/tom-bergeron/

The show went into a maternal lineage but it is likely that the Bergeron lineage came from the same place.

I don't know if it is the same Bergeron lineage but there is one in my "B2" group.
85844 Pierre Bergeron, b.c.1622, LaRochelle, FR

This Pierre would have been a child probably have to leave for Canada during King Louie's siege.

The TV show made the story of La Rochelle quite impactful.

There are Walsh's who went to France and we are somehow tangled up with Cambro-Normans so who knows?

George Chandler
09-03-2015, 10:06 PM
Some pretty interesting L513 lines. I wish I had the time and money to look at them closer.

Rory Cain
09-04-2015, 06:32 AM
...There are Walsh's who went to France and we are somehow tangled up with Cambro-Normans so who knows?

Conversely some of the Huguenot (French protestant) refugees went to Ireland where they contributed to the banking and linen industries amongst other things.

Jon
09-04-2015, 04:33 PM
The west coast thing is indeed interesting. A good visual representation is Gerard Corcoran's maps on Pinterest, where L513 seems very coastal, at least in Ireland. There are L193 folks in central Scotland as well, but there is a long long history of movement into that region from the west, so who knows. I wonder if that fringe/coastal distribution has anything to tell us, in contrast with more evenly-spread clades like DF21?

Rory Cain
09-04-2015, 08:13 PM
The west coast thing is indeed interesting. A good visual representation is Gerard Corcoran's maps on Pinterest, where L513 seems very coastal, at least in Ireland. There are L193 folks in central Scotland as well, but there is a long long history of movement into that region from the west, so who knows. I wonder if that fringe/coastal distribution has anything to tell us, in contrast with more evenly-spread clades like DF21?

I know some refer to DF21 as evenly spread, but given the vast acreages where we have found not a single representative, the hotspots in Scotland and Ireland have to stand out. A check of those Scots surname projects who seem to regard SNP based projects as a threat, shows a DF21+ band from the Ayrshire Coast to Angus. Similarly in Ireland, another East-West band from Galway to Dublin. In both cases the highest concentration is at the western extremity.

The Scottish DF21 band corresponds with the northernmost extent of Halstatt Celtic artifacts in Scotland. The Irish band parallels the southernmost extent of La Tene artifacts. That could possibly date the arrival of DF21 in both countries, making DF21's Scottish settlement earlier than it's Irish settlement. Greater DF21 genetic diversity in Scotland may support that.

If the timing of their movements corresponds it could be that DF21's arrival pushed L513 further north. In the Airghialla territory which Connachta mercenaries took from the Ulaid, DF21 & L513 intermingle, possibly as natives and newcomers. I see DF21 as the newcomers there, and originally from the DF21 band across the centre of Ireland, having advanced north.

Then there is M222 who also played a part in this. We have all been looking at our own clades and missed the interplay.

Jon
09-04-2015, 08:47 PM
Great comment about the interplay Rory, I quite agree. It's like a sports team - everyone has his role alongside the others. No-one stands alone.

Forgive me if this is naive, but what you've described as the distribution of DF21 ('band from Ayrshire to Angus') sounds a lot like some of the L193 maps I've seen, which in turn bares some resemblance to M222. Is this just a shared ancient Celtic/Iron Age distribution? L513 certainly seems to be old in most places, so I guess Ulaid in Ireland might be a good bet (after all, there is the big so-called Airghialla II group in L513, which is quite different from the Airghialla DF21 group).

Rory Cain
09-04-2015, 09:14 PM
...Forgive me if this is naive, but what you've described as the distribution of DF21 ('band from Ayrshire to Angus') sounds a lot like some of the L193 maps I've seen, which in turn bares some resemblance to M222. Is this just a shared ancient Celtic/Iron Age distribution? L513 certainly seems to be old in most places, so I guess Ulaid in Ireland might be a good bet (after all, there is the big so-called Airghialla II group in L513, which is quite different from the Airghialla DF21 group).

Jon, I might well be naive too, but I thought L193 was more down amongst the border clans? Certainly that was the initial case. I know you mentioned some newer evidence. That early L193 distribution was well to the South of DF21 in Strathclyde, Lomondside, etc., and just a little east of a M222 hotspot in Galloway.

Obviously these all blur at the edges. You may well be looking at blurred edges while I am looking at peaks. As we seem to be seeing somewhat different things. We can learn from both, I am sure, and the Airghialla split into L513 and DF21 that you mention would be a good example of one of the blurred edges. But to get a complete picture I feel that looking at peaks or hotspots is feasible too. I think there are signs of L513, DF21 and M222 peaking in different locations or hotspots.

Jon
09-05-2015, 01:02 PM
True, there does still seem to be that southern hotspot. But it seems very western borders. Also there seem to be more and more from central Scotland, and into Perthshire. I don't think it can be called a borders clade any longer (but I'd be happy to hear other thoughts on this). IN my own family, which is SW-focused, there is a faint legend that they nave have some down from Perthshire/Angus, which doesn't help the research!

But you're quite right, that Ayhsire/coastal southern hotspot is still very much there.

Rory Cain
09-08-2015, 04:07 AM
True, there does still seem to be that southern hotspot. But it seems very western borders. Also there seem to be more and more from central Scotland, and into Perthshire. I don't think it can be called a borders clade any longer (but I'd be happy to hear other thoughts on this). IN my own family, which is SW-focused, there is a faint legend that they nave have some down from Perthshire/Angus, which doesn't help the research!

But you're quite right, that Ayhsire/coastal southern hotspot is still very much there.

Gerard Corcoran has a map of L153 distribution in Ireland on PinInterest. Have you seen a L513 nap of Britain and Ireland?

Heber
09-08-2015, 06:46 AM
Gerard Corcoran has a map of L153 distribution in Ireland on PinInterest. Have you seen a L513 nap of Britain and Ireland?

Rory, I need to update these maps. They are over a year old.:).
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l513/

Jon
09-08-2015, 01:55 PM
Wow, even at a year old, the coastal focus is striking, I hadn't appreciated that before...ancient Erainn perhaps, in Ireland?

Rory Cain
09-08-2015, 08:11 PM
Rory, I need to update these maps. They are over a year old.:).
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l513/

Gerard, I noticed that but appreciate the effort you put in and didn't want to sound ungrateful. Inclusion of Britain or at least Scotland on an update would be very helpful I feel, but again I don't want to sound ungrateful. It would add a lot to your workload. I wonder if some locations might not have hotted up as DF21 hotspots over the last year - say north & East Co Clare, North Tipperary, Strathclyde and Lomondside.

Jon
09-09-2015, 11:06 AM
Gerard, an update to include Scotland/England would be amazing :) I for one would massively appreciate it!