PDA

View Full Version : Anchored in Armenia: An Exercise in Genetic Relativity



DMXX
08-06-2014, 11:58 PM
Something I've spent the past few days working on following some inspiration from MfA's recent post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1778-Mapping-Your-Location-(GEDmatch-calculators)&p=47168&viewfull=1#post47168).

http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2014/08/anchored-in-armenia-exercise-in-genetic.html



In this blog entry, the Armenians will therefore be considered as a surrogate for autochthonous West Asian ancestry. They will be treated as a primary donor population (PDP) for several other West Asian groups, in an attempt to flesh out the degree of mutual shared ancestry, as well as the directions of added affinities beyond the region.
...

In closing, this investigation has also determined that, on the basis of the presumption of an Armenian-like autochthonous West Asian substrate, the studied populations as a whole have an apparent degree of inter-relatedness by virtue of this common South Caucasian autosomal heritage, albeit with the presence of highly significant affinities to elsewhere in Eurasia, be it population-wide, regional or even individual.


I was pleasantly surprised to see something as "simple" as Dienekes' Oracle program could paint such an illuminating picture of West Asian genetics, all the while clearly revealing how crucial more modern samples and aDNA are. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

(P.S. the Iranian with 56% Armenian + 44% Tajik is yours truly.)

Sein
08-07-2014, 05:21 AM
Something I've spent the past few days working on following some inspiration from MfA's recent post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1778-Mapping-Your-Location-(GEDmatch-calculators)&p=47168&viewfull=1#post47168).

http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2014/08/anchored-in-armenia-exercise-in-genetic.html



I was pleasantly surprised to see something as "simple" as Dienekes' Oracle program could paint such an illuminating picture of West Asian genetics, all the while clearly revealing how crucial more modern samples and aDNA are. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

(P.S. the Iranian with 56% Armenian + 44% Tajik is yours truly.)

A deeply fascinating and refreshingly lucid investigation/analysis!

Perhaps the strong South Central Asian pull for Iranians and Kurds might possibly represent ancient Indo-Iranian genetic input? Of course, it could also be the product of greater geographic proximity to South Asia. But I'm more inclined towards the former idea. The fact that someone like yourself (from the northwest of Iran, and with probable distant ancestry from the northern Caucasus, if my memory serves me right) shows a stronger South Central Asian signal than other Iranians who are from areas closer to the center of the country, and the fact that South Central Asian ancestry is intimately tied to ANE, makes this South Central Asian signal in Iranians look more like genetic input from the early Indo-Iranian tribes. I wouldn't be surprised if Iranians and Kurds have more ANE admixture than Armenians.

Humanist
08-07-2014, 11:38 AM
Great job, my friend. I just wanted to make one note that is of importance in my mind. IBD sharing between Assyrians of the "Nestorian" Church and Armenians is insignificant. Most of the IBD sharing, where it does exist, comes through between members of the Syriac Orthodox Church (e.g. Elias) and Armenians.

From another thread:


That would be a good question to ask Peter or Humanist.

It is a rather complicated question. And, depends on how far back in time you wish to consider (please see the Assyrian thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=28877&viewfull=1#post28877)). Dienekes ran numerous IBD (Identity by Descent) analyses in his Dodecad projects, and save for a select Assyrian or two, Assyrian IBD sharing with Armenians was rather unremarkable.

Assyrian #5 is Syriac Orthodox/Chaldean Catholic with known Armenian ancestry. Assyrian #10 is a Syriac Orthodox. Assyrian #13 is Chaldean Catholic.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/IBD_assyrian-1.png


Note the position, and sharing with other communities (majority from "Nestorian" church):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png


Also, there is Y-STR data:

Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia

Yepiskoposyan et al (http://www.yhrd.org/files/3rd_y_user_workshop_talk_abstacts.pdf).


Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.

Edit: I should add, I do not know why the one Dodecad run shows some IBD sharing between Assyrians and Armenians while the above one does not. But, I reckon, individuals with significant known Armenian ancestry, such as Elias, and perhaps even the other Syriac Orthodox individual should have been (but were not) removed from the comparison.

Humanist
08-07-2014, 01:26 PM
DMXX wrote:

Additionally, a better breakdown of Kurdish, Iranian and Assyrian samples, akin to the site-specific sampling seen here in the Anatolian Turks, would have been ideal.

That would be nice. With Assyrians, I think one's church affiliation may be just as, if not more important than geography. At least as it relates to IBD affinity with Armenians, an Orthodox Christian people.

DMXX
08-07-2014, 01:28 PM
DMXX wrote:

That would be nice. With Assyrians, I think one's church affiliation may be just as, if not more important than geography. At least as it relates to IBD affinity with Armenians, an Orthodox Christian people.

That was precisely what I had in mind for the Assyrians - I do try and keep myself up to date with your posts. :)

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 02:58 PM
I don't think the south central Asian connection is via Indo Iranians. They came from regions with little to no Gedrosia. They may have picked some up migration, but still would've decreased it's signal in those they mixed with. I think this component is older than IE, and possibly the wrong location for the IE homeland. Turks and Assyrians aren't far behind Iranians and Kurds, for Gedrosia. Lezgins are there too.

DMXX
08-07-2014, 03:07 PM
I don't think the south central Asian connection is via Indo Iranians. They came from regions with little to no Gedrosia. They may have picked some up migration, but still would've decreased it's signal in those they mixed with. I think this component is older than IE, and possibly the wrong location for the IE homeland. Turks and Assyrians aren't far behind Iranians and Kurds, for Gedrosia. Lezgins are there too.

Agreed. It is abundantly clear in the world of linguistics by now that the IE homeland was not in South-Central Asia. However, if we subscribe to the Pontic-Caspian theory and the generally accepted movement of Proto-Indo-Iranians out of Sintashta, it is very likely they genetically mixed with the aboriginal population of South-Central Asia (BMAC). Linguists (numerous non-IE words), anthropologists (religious motifs) and archaeologists (various physical cultural items) have found all manner of indications that the BMAC folk were assimilated into the world of the Indo-Iranian newcomers.

So, some of the Gedrosia can be ascribed to the later Indo-Iranians. A lot if the Gedrosian in Iran, however, is probably a remnant neolithic farmer signal with origins in the southern Caucasus that simply achieved specificity in the east. This is corroborated by the archaeological development of the BMAC from its' western point of origin in the Near-Eastern neolithic.

That would mean, in my opinion, that the majority of Iranians will be mostly native to the plateau, irrespective of external influences. We'll have to consider the country on a regional basis, or individuals as discrete units, to properly flesh out the differences and external influences that exist. Even in my case, I suspect whatever Medieval Turkish admixture I have from my Azeri Iranian side is artificially raising the genetic signal I have with Central Asia to an extent.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 04:10 PM
I agree. Followed by subsequent migration abroad. If it were indo Iranian, Brits wouldn't carry the torch for it, among Europeans. I would seriously question ie speaking amongst r1b Bell Beaker and Corded ware.. There is serious Maykop influence over the metal working and art of Beakers, Celts, and Germans. There is a 1400 year dark period between R1b Beaker and The first true Celtic culture. Not to mention a 500 year period before R1b Beaker, where Celtic and Germanic broke off. Plus, studies showed the Kromsdorf R1b came from the northeast, not the Balkans. It doesn't add up. I would also bet that most Iranian ANE, is native or pre-IE.

Sein
08-07-2014, 07:15 PM
I don't think the south central Asian connection is via Indo Iranians. They came from regions with little to no Gedrosia. They may have picked some up migration, but still would've decreased it's signal in those they mixed with. I think this component is older than IE, and possibly the wrong location for the IE homeland. Turks and Assyrians aren't far behind Iranians and Kurds, for Gedrosia. Lezgins are there too.

For what it's worth, the Thracian sample shows 60% Gedrosia! Assuming this isn't a fluke, it is of great significance.

Also, people want to pin ANE admixture in Eurasia on Indo-European dispersal. And the closest West Eurasian component to MA1 is Gedrosia, and it is one of their largest components in ADMIXTURE. So, the connection comes naturally.

And even if high Gedrosia scores for people with roots in the steppe are inaccurate, the Indo-Iranians spent a long time in South Central Asia, prior to entering the Iranian plateau. They were probably thoroughly mixed with South Central Asians.

But yes, I think the Gedrosia component is native to South Central Asia, since ANE seems to be deeply rooted in this region. ANE admixture in West Asia is fairly weak, so a heavy South Central Asian input, or a heavy Indo-Iranian input (we are begining to find that these amount to the same thing), seems unlikely.

Edit: In formal testing, almost all northern West Asians (including south Caucasians) are best fitted as mixtures between North Africans and South Asians. I think this happens because their ANE admixture is minor enough to be expressed as South Asian admixture on a North African base.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 10:08 PM
So, if that's true, then my theory of migration is true. Western Europeans probably are descendants of Maykop, Kura Araxes, and Lake Urmia. Do you have the results or link to that? I remember that one of them showed Caucasus around 40%, but no Gedrosia. The Dane was 25%, but looked pretty admixed. I figure the Caucasus was at least 50% Gedrosia, before arrival of more Near Eastern elements, ie Caucasus component. Gedrosia cuts through Crimea and the far South of Ukraine, none in most of the country. If Thracians migrated from Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if they had none.

Humanist
08-07-2014, 10:15 PM
For what it's worth, the Thracian sample shows 60% Gedrosia! Assuming this isn't a fluke, it is of great significance.

If it is not an aberration, I wonder what people in West, Central, and South Asia will be, if a Thracian turns out to be 60% Gedrosia.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 10:24 PM
If it is not an aberration, I wonder what people in West, Central, and South Asia will be, if a Thracian turns out to be 60% Gedrosia.


I would be that the Brahui were once close to pure Gedrosia. Maybe, up until 3-4kya. Pre-IE, Harappan, etc, I'd bet even Pashtuns were 75% Gedrosia, plus their extra ANE.

DMXX
08-07-2014, 10:29 PM
If it is not an aberration, I wonder what people in West, Central, and South Asia will be, if a Thracian turns out to be 60% Gedrosia.

If the Thracian was indeed over 60% Gedrosian, that would mean modern Europeans residing in Thracian territory would not have very much ancestry from his/her people. I personally suspect it's a contaminated sample.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 10:29 PM
If the Thracian is heavily Gedrosia, we would probably have to move the IE homeland into the Caucasus area, and re-evaluate the genetics of Eastern Europeans, who don't show any. They would certainly have to be Indo-European through elite dominance, and little mixing. It might make sense of a few things. Didn't the Tarim mummies only have Bactrian camels in early graves, no horses? That makes a steppe origin, highly unlikely. Things will come together soon, I believe.

parasar
08-07-2014, 10:31 PM
If it is not an aberration, I wonder what people in West, Central, and South Asia will be, if a Thracian turns out to be 60% Gedrosia.

From Gujarat to Shortughai perhaps pretty close to the Thracian.

Humanist
08-07-2014, 10:35 PM
What are these "Western (European) lineages" in Armenians?


Maju: Although I personally feel that Armenians tend to have too high frequency of Western (European) lineages to be the alleged ideal ancestral proxy...

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 10:40 PM
The theory that the earliest mummies came from the west is supported by a number of scholars. Textile expert Elizabeth Wayland Barber wrote in her book The Mummies of Urumchi that the kind of cloth discovered in the oldest grave sites can be traced to the Caucasus. [Source: Edward Wong, New York Times, November 18, 2008]

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 10:44 PM
What are these "Western (European) lineages" in Armenians?

I wouldn't pay any mind to him. He still sees R1b as expanding out of the Atlantic, and the Basques as the extreme overlord of us minions...

parasar
08-07-2014, 10:57 PM
I wouldn't pay any mind to him. He still sees R1b as expanding out of the Atlantic, and the Basques as the extreme overlord of us minions...

Canary aborigines had R1b so I would not discount it altogether. Ultimately yes it came from the east but within Europe the locus of expansion could be from the SW.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-07-2014, 11:05 PM
That is probably a late arrival. They also have Gedrosia. So it can't be that old. Beaker people did sail. They went to Sicily, Britain, Ireland.
Maritime Beaker shows no genetic relation to Corded Beaker of Germany.

parasar
08-07-2014, 11:15 PM
What is the evidence fom R1b-V69?

ADW_1981
08-07-2014, 11:51 PM
I agree. Followed by subsequent migration abroad. If it were indo Iranian, Brits wouldn't carry the torch for it, among Europeans. I would seriously question ie speaking amongst r1b Bell Beaker and Corded ware.. There is serious Maykop influence over the metal working and art of Beakers, Celts, and Germans. There is a 1400 year dark period between R1b Beaker and The first true Celtic culture. Not to mention a 500 year period before R1b Beaker, where Celtic and Germanic broke off. Plus, studies showed the Kromsdorf R1b came from the northeast, not the Balkans. It doesn't add up. I would also bet that most Iranian ANE, is native or pre-IE.

I believe some scholars hold the opinion that Proto-Celtic family of languages were in Britain/Ireland before the arrival of "Celtic" culture from central Europe. ANE was based of the genome of a 24,000 year old human, of course its pre-IE.

ADW_1981
08-07-2014, 11:56 PM
Canary aborigines had R1b so I would not discount it altogether. Ultimately yes it came from the east but within Europe the locus of expansion could be from the SW.

I don't recall any age associated with that "aborigine" graveyard, and I don't see it being much older than 1,000 years or so. I recall J-M267 being found there as well and I doubt that line pre-dates the Arabs in north Africa.

ADW_1981
08-07-2014, 11:57 PM
That is probably a late arrival. They also have Gedrosia. So it can't be that old. Beaker people did sail. They went to Sicily, Britain, Ireland.
Maritime Beaker shows no genetic relation to Corded Beaker of Germany.

Based on what genetic evidence are the two not related?

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 12:01 AM
There is a large dark area in there, that scholars do not understand. I know what ANE is. I am saying that most of the ANE in Iran, is native to the area.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 12:02 AM
Based on what genetic evidence are the two not related?

Because they have different y-dna, mtdna, and physical characteristics. That is how. Not to mention that the isotopes involved with both concluded that Maritime Beaker involved no outsiders, German Corded Beaker R1b showed that it came from some distance to the Northeast.

DMXX
08-08-2014, 12:17 AM
There is a large dark area in there, that scholars do not understand. I know what ANE is. I am saying that most of the ANE in Iran, is native to the area.

What is the data that has convinced you this is the case?

The data concerning Iran's Y-DNA R1a1a and North European component admixture distribution coincide a little too conspicuously with one another. If both have an association with ANE (which I believe is currently Davidski's position regarding the status of these in West Asia), that would mean a fair proportion of the ANE in Iran came from the steppes.

I am unconvinced the ANE in West Asia has a considerable extent of antiquity based on the perfect gradient that forms from Yemen through to the Caucasus region. I do think this is the case with South Asia, however.

Whatever the case, this thread has gone pretty off-topic. This thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software/page113) or this one (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1781-Post-Your-EEF-WHG-and-ANE-Admixture-Proportions) are fit for the current discussion.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 12:26 AM
The ANE is too high to involve that many outsiders. We would be talking massive replacement for which there is no evidence. ANE could entered via the Caucasus pre-ie as well. If we use a 25% replacement model for Europe, Bronze Age invaders are more Near Eastern than ANE.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 12:28 AM
ANE was spread by the Kura Araxes, maykop, hurrian and related groups, pre-ie as well. Maykop's origins point to the Iranian plateau, archaeologically.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 12:33 AM
I would bet that your north euro component is more of an ANE dump off, like central and south central Asians. It is the closest in drift to ANE, so that's where it goes.

parasar
08-08-2014, 01:25 AM
I don't recall any age associated with that "aborigine" graveyard, and I don't see it being much older than 1,000 years or so. I recall J-M267 being found there as well and I doubt that line pre-dates the Arabs in north Africa.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181 Not very old.

Tenerife (2210 60 to 1720 60 BP), Gomera (1743 40 to 1493 40 BP), Hierro (1740 50 to 970 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 60 to 750 60 BP) ... However, if the arrival of the indigenous people in the islands was around 1,000 years B.C. [48], the presence of J-M267 in NW Africa could be previous to the Arab expansion. Alternatively, this marker might have reached the islands with a second wave of colonists.

parasar
08-08-2014, 03:01 AM
ANE was spread by the Kura Araxes, maykop, hurrian and related groups, pre-ie as well. Maykop's origins point to the Iranian plateau, archaeologically.

If ANE was pre-IE do you suppose it was exclusively Hurrian or Urartic (pre-IE language of Armenia), because there is not an iota of Hurrian or Urartic influence on any Indic language.

Mher
08-08-2014, 08:12 AM
http://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/balkan-aryan-waves/

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 02:35 PM
If ANE was pre-IE do you suppose it was exclusively Hurrian or Urartic (pre-IE language of Armenia), because there is not an iota of Hurrian or Urartic influence on any Indic language.

Hurrians are after maykop and Kura araxes. They very well could speak something very different. Indic didn't come through their area, either. If we knew what was spoken by Maykop, we could probably find another link to Central Asia, outside of archaeology.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 02:44 PM
Bmac was started by people from the Iranian Plateau, just as Maykop. That substrate in indo aryan, could be the one we need.

parasar
08-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Hurrians are after maykop and Kura araxes. They very well could speak something very different. Indic didn't come through their area, either. If we knew what was spoken by Maykop, we could probably find another link to Central Asia, outside of archaeology.

I seriously doubt that that West Asia had anything to do with Indo Europeans before 2000bc. Otherwise we should see some evidence in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records. Until the Mitanni and the Hittites, there is no reference to anything Indic or Indo-European for that matter in Egyptian records. Mesopotamian records have a few earlier references but they all point east to the Indus.

ADW_1981
08-08-2014, 04:51 PM
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/181 Not very old.

I really suspect the latter, that it arrived later with Arab migrants from the east. The presumed neolithic waves south from Egypt don't show J-M267.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 07:29 PM
I seriously doubt that that West Asia had anything to do with Indo Europeans before 2000bc. Otherwise we should see some evidence in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records. Until the Mitanni and the Hittites, there is no reference to anything Indic or Indo-European for that matter in Egyptian records. Mesopotamian records have a few earlier references but they all point east to the Indus.

Those aren't indo European speakers.

Humanist
08-08-2014, 07:49 PM
Those aren't indo European speakers.

Hittites and/or Mitanni?

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 07:54 PM
Hittites and/or Mitanni?

I'm referring to maykop, Kura araxes, and hurrians. Maykop could possibly speak the same language as BMAC, since they both originate from the same region.

alan
08-08-2014, 09:06 PM
I dug very deep into the possibility of a link between Maykop and L23xL51 R1b but I never felt convinced. It is true that Maykop eventually had some influence and also minor offshoots from the steppes to NW Iran by c. 3500BC and was the origin of the Circumpontic Metallurgical Provence (CMP) but it doesnt seem to have any offshoots or cultures it had strong influence on west of the Dnieper/Crimea area.

It seems that further extension of the CMP metal traditions west of there didnt happen until Yamnaya took up the torch of the CMP and expanded into the Balkans after c. 3000BC. In general I think the complexity of Balkans metalworking c. 4000-3000BC after the fall of Old Europe doesnt fit neatly into the model of the Carpatho-Balkans metal tradition followed by the CMP. The model seems to really apply best to east of the Balkans.

However, what I have raised as a possibility recently is that copper working could have been linked to M269 from the invention of copper smelting and they both together entered into many cultures as a lineage rather than as a population group. That actually to me makes a lot of sense of the otherwise pretty baffling distribution of the older M269 derived clades.


So, if that's true, then my theory of migration is true. Western Europeans probably are descendants of Maykop, Kura Araxes, and Lake Urmia. Do you have the results or link to that? I remember that one of them showed Caucasus around 40%, but no Gedrosia. The Dane was 25%, but looked pretty admixed. I figure the Caucasus was at least 50% Gedrosia, before arrival of more Near Eastern elements, ie Caucasus component. Gedrosia cuts through Crimea and the far South of Ukraine, none in most of the country. If Thracians migrated from Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if they had none.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 09:29 PM
I dug very deep into the possibility of a link between Maykop and L23xL51 R1b but I never felt convinced. It is true that Maykop eventually had some influence and also minor offshoots from the steppes to NW Iran by c. 3500BC and was the origin of the Circumpontic Metallurgical Provence (CMP) but it doesnt seem to have any offshoots or cultures it had strong influence on west of the Dnieper/Crimea area.

It seems that further extension of the CMP metal traditions west of there didnt happen until Yamnaya took up the torch of the CMP and expanded into the Balkans after c. 3000BC. In general I think the complexity of Balkans metalworking c. 4000-3000BC after the fall of Old Europe doesnt fit neatly into the model of the Carpatho-Balkans metal tradition followed by the CMP. The model seems to really apply best to east of the Balkans.

However, what I have raised as a possibility recently is that copper working could have been linked to M269 from the invention of copper smelting and they both together entered into many cultures as a lineage rather than as a population group. That actually to me makes a lot of sense of the otherwise pretty baffling distribution of the older M269 derived clades.

If that was the case, you would have a hard time explaining why Gedrosia is so linked with r1b in Europe and Africa. They have to originate from near the source. The Bronze Age Dane had as much as Lezgins, after being admixed, in Europe. Even South Siberian R1b pops have it. This suggests a common source, that is not north of the Caspian. It also could not have branched from there before the Neolithic.

parasar
08-08-2014, 10:36 PM
I think Gedrosia appears more connected to western Europe due to the significant amount of eef in Gedrosia making its ane/eef more western Europe like.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-08-2014, 11:00 PM
I think Gedrosia appears more connected to western Europe due to the significant amount of eef in Gedrosia making its ane/eef more western Europe like.

If that was why, then it would be Caucasus, and not Gedrosia. It's not in Neolithic samples either, so that shoots it down. It came in the metal ages.

Humanist
08-08-2014, 11:01 PM
A note regarding the Azerbaijani Jews. Although, going by ADMIXTURE results they appear to be most similar to Assyrians, when David ran an intra-Jewish and Assyrian MDS a few years ago, the Azerbaijani Jews appeared to be distinct from Assyrians and other East Mizrahim Jews:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Assyrian_Jewish_MDS.jpg

alan
08-09-2014, 01:29 AM
Basic problem with R1b coming from SW Asia is that it doesnt look like it was in Europe until the end of the Neolithic/copper age. Add to that that there is no archaeological evidence of any movements from SW Asia into Europe in the copper age and it seems like a non-starter to derive it from SW Asia. The only time when such an origin might have seemed plausible was before the lack of R1b in the early farmers started to become apparent. However, European R1b is not present and in general European R1b is simply not old enough to be associated with the early farmers.

However a male lineage that injected itself into various societies due to its copper working skills could be archaeologically invisible other than the spread of copper working but I wouldnt expect a lineage that was always passing into other societies with far larger existing populations would leave a detectable autosomal imprint - after a handful of generations of marrying local women - they would fairly quickly have their original autosomal DNA diluted out. The origin point of copper smelting is still disputed although the Balkans, Anatolia and Iran were all early.

All we have at the moment is Mal'ta boy in ice age Siberia as an R* and then the Kromsdorf M269xU106 beaker burial. We know that by 2500-2600BC this was already associated with beaker people as a lot of people had already guessed from distribution. How R1b, a basically eastern originated line, came to be linked with a culture which is earliest dated in SW Europe is still an enduring mystery but noone has ever suggested an origin in SW Asia for that culture or some sort of ancestral culture than led to beaker. There is still a heck of a missing link and although some suggestions have been made they are speculative. Pre-beaker R1b is one of the holy grails of ancient DNA.


If that was the case, you would have a hard time explaining why Gedrosia is so linked with r1b in Europe and Africa. They have to originate from near the source. The Bronze Age Dane had as much as Lezgins, after being admixed, in Europe. Even South Siberian R1b pops have it. This suggests a common source, that is not north of the Caspian. It also could not have branched from there before the Neolithic.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-09-2014, 02:08 AM
I didn't say sw Asia. I'm talking out of the Caucasus. Read back a ways, or check out those other links. I don't wanna burn up the Armenian post.

parasar
08-09-2014, 04:27 PM
If that was why, then it would be Caucasus, and not Gedrosia. It's not in Neolithic samples either, so that shoots it down. It came in the metal ages.

I am not sure what the ratio in the Caucasus component is - the ane/eef ratio.
The Neolithic samples don't have ANE perhaps.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-09-2014, 06:35 PM
I am not sure what the ratio in the Caucasus component is - the ane/eef ratio.
The Neolithic samples don't have ANE perhaps.

It is almost pure Near Eastern, maybe 5% ANE. Go to the TreeMix convo. I've posted cranial studies of maykop and links to intrusive elements from the Near East, (matching Iran, the Caucasus, Northern Mesopotamia) during the Chalcolithic, also in Samara.

alan
08-09-2014, 08:45 PM
My notion about copper smelting being linked to M269 from its inception is fairly fluid geographically as the whole Balkans-Anatolia-NW Iran area could have been the ultimate place of invention c. 5000BC so it isnt ruling out a south of the Black Sea origin. On current evidence the Caucasus were later to copper smelting. Prior to 4000BC the northern Caucasus had recieved some Balkans copper probably via the Sredny Stog groups to their north and west who acted as middlemen. The north Caucasus seem to have first gained developed metallurgy from influences coming from Iran c. 4000BC which led to the Maykop culture. The south of the Caucasus was later to copper working c. 3500BC with the Kura-Araxes culture which expanded greatly from Iran to the Levant.

The pre-Yamnaya Balkans c. 4300-3000BC is the perfect place where M269, metallurgy and IE languages may have combined to form the link many suggest there is. That was the period where existing Balkans metallurgical know how and the early pre-Yamnaya steppe groups coincide and that is also an area where M269* and L23xL51 clades are most common today in Europe.

Again, the problem with a SW Asian origin for M269 is that while SW Asia has lots of evidence of being a major source of the first farmers in Europe c. 7000-6000BC there is pretty well no suggestion in the archaeological record of anything like that in the 5000-3000BC period. That is a major problem because ancient DNA so far is building up to indicate no R1b (or Gedrosia as you mention) in the Neolithic farmers of Europe. So, it does seem to have intruded.

I think all I can suggest is that perhaps modern distribution is badly misleading us and back-projection of modern DNA to 5000 years ago may be completely misleading. The Caucasus is thought to be a typical mountain refuge area for groups who have lost their power on the lowlands to the north and south rather than a population source area. I suspect many of the genes we now see in the Caucasus are from displaced populations who once lived to the south and north.

Gedrosia itself looks very much like a distribution where a crucial part of its former distribution has been erased as there is no way of making sense of a group in Asia and in western Europe with a big gap in between in any other way

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

vettor
08-09-2014, 08:51 PM
My notion about copper smelting being linked to M269 from its inception is fairly fluid geographically as the whole Balkans-Anatolia-NW Iran area could have been the ultimate place of invention c. 5000BC so it isnt ruling out a south of the Black Sea origin. On current evidence the Caucasus were later to copper smelting. Prior to 4000BC the northern Caucasus had recieved some Balkans copper probably via the Sredny Stog groups to their north and west who acted as middlemen. The north Caucasus seem to have first gained developed metallurgy from influences coming from Iran c. 4000BC which led to the Maykop culture. The south of the Caucasus was later to copper working c. 3500BC with the Kura-Araxes culture which expanded greatly from Iran to the Levant.

The pre-Yamnaya Balkans c. 4300-3000BC is the perfect place where M269, metallurgy and IE languages may have combined to form the link many suggest there is. That was the period where existing Balkans metallurgical know how and the early pre-Yamnaya steppe groups coincide and that is also an area where M269* and L23xL51 clades are most common today in Europe.

Again, the problem with a SW Asian origin for M269 is that while SW Asia has lots of evidence of being a major source of the first farmers in Europe c. 7000-6000BC there is pretty well no suggestion in the archaeological record of anything like that in the 5000-3000BC period. That is a major problem because ancient DNA so far is building up to indicate no R1b (or Gedrosia as you mention) in the Neolithic farmers of Europe. So, it does seem to have intruded.

I think all I can suggest is that perhaps modern distribution is badly misleading us and back-projection of modern DNA to 5000 years ago may be completely misleading. The Caucasus is thought to be a typical mountain refuge area for groups who have lost their power on the lowlands to the north and south rather than a population source area. I suspect many of the genes we now see in the Caucasus are from displaced populations who once lived to the south and north.

Gedrosia itself looks very much like a distribution where a crucial part of its former distribution has been erased as there is no way of making sense of a group in Asia and in western Europe with a big gap in between in any other way

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

IMO, the map looks like the gedrosian moved from the caucasus to Nw Europe via the danube river, quickly.......the Danube route must have been rapid as not many settled there

parasar
08-09-2014, 10:09 PM
...

Again, the problem with a SW Asian origin for M269 is that while SW Asia has lots of evidence of being a major source of the first farmers in Europe c. 7000-6000BC there is pretty well no suggestion in the archaeological record of anything like that in the 5000-3000BC period. That is a major problem because ancient DNA so far is building up to indicate no R1b (or Gedrosia as you mention) in the Neolithic farmers of Europe. So, it does seem to have intruded.

...
Gedrosia itself looks very much like a distribution where a crucial part of its former distribution has been erased as there is no way of making sense of a group in Asia and in western Europe with a big gap in between in any other way

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

We have to keep in mind that to the east of this map - on the Indus valley, Gedrosia almost doubles and R1b plummets to near 0.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

alan
08-09-2014, 10:22 PM
The lack of Gedrosia among Balto-Slavs in general is pretty clear. The Slavic expansion seems to have been a real demographic folk movement and I dont think we should ever underestimate the impact of Slavic expansion in post-Roman times (this is not an invite to discuss the alternative ideas on Slavic expansion by the way) and of course the much later expansion of Russians in the last 300 years. That placename-yDNA study in Austria showed that even in areas where Slavic placenames were present as the only reminder of their former presence, they had massively changed the yDNA patterns permanently. So, wherever the Slavs went their relative strength would likely have decreased the Gedrosia. My suspicion is that most of the Balkans, Hungary etc was once rather higher until the Slavs brought down the frequency. So, the map is to my mind been significantly altered by the Slavic expansion and this may be the origin of the odd distribution in Europe.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-09-2014, 10:26 PM
R1b does have low spots and high spots E and SE of the Caspian. Just like R1a. R1b is stronger than R1a in several places in Central Asia, and a couple places in SC Asia. It does fall to 8% among Pashtuns and Balochi, but we have later R1a invasions to help explain that part. Just as the other R1a hotspots over R1b. These Gedrosia migrants were farmers and herders. They had no use for the forest area inhabited by Corded Ware, the relative of the Catacomb people. Let's take the convo to the TreeMix convo, or something else. I've already covered a lot of this in previous posts.

alan
08-09-2014, 11:01 PM
The gedrosia map does strike me as interesting in that in eastern Europe the lack of Gedrosia does seem to have some sort of correlation with the relative success and persistence of Slavic and Baltic. It suggests that Slavic underwent its large expansion from a point is the grey zone of the Gedrosia map and as I just suggested a lowering of the Gedrosia count was probably part of its impact. This would seem to be in line with the idea of Slavic arising around the Belarus, north Ukraine area where they may have developed a distinctive autosomal signature.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

This opens up the possibility that Gedrosia was once much better represented in places like the Balkans, the southern steppe etc. Perhaps before the Slavic expansion Gedrosia was far better represeted on the north shore of the Black and Caspian Seas - something that could be very ancient.

As Gedrosia has not been found among European farmers this is a very strong indirect evidence that it was also unknown on the shores of SW Asia c. 8000-6000BC. So, its origins must be sought further east than the Levant, western Anatolia etc. I dont think its easy to see how Gedrosia was distributed at the time when farming arose. Its lack in early farmers in Europe suggests to me that it was peripherial to SW Asia.

Overall, my impression is that Gedrosia may have gained the eastern part of its distribution in pre-farming times. Certainly I would really challenge anyone to explain its distribution in terms of farming cultures. It simply doesnt work as far as I can see. It seems possible to me that Gedrosia was once distributed across inner Asia at the end of the ice age. I also think that in general there has been a long history of steppe groups being shunted south into south-west and central Asia when their power on the steppe was broken by the next wave rolling across the steppe - a process you can see time and time again. That needs to be taken into account.

parasar
08-09-2014, 11:02 PM
The lack of Gedrosia among Balto-Slavs in general is pretty clear. The Slavic expansion seems to have been a real demographic folk movement and I dont think we should ever underestimate the impact of Slavic expansion in post-Roman times (this is not an invite to discuss the alternative ideas on Slavic expansion by the way) and of course the much later expansion of Russians in the last 300 years. That placename-yDNA study in Austria showed that even in areas where Slavic placenames were present as the only reminder of their former presence, they had massively changed the yDNA patterns permanently. So, wherever the Slavs went their relative strength would likely have decreased the Gedrosia. My suspicion is that most of the Balkans, Hungary etc was once rather higher until the Slavs brought down the frequency. So, the map is to my mind been significantly altered by the Slavic expansion and this may be the origin of the odd distribution in Europe.

And Slavs are very high in R1a. That is the reason I believe the portion of Gedrosia that is connecting the Indus, the Caucasus and Western Europe, is very old and is more related to something like F-G,H rather than R.

Humanist
08-09-2014, 11:09 PM
I think all I can suggest is that perhaps modern distribution is badly misleading us and back-projection of modern DNA to 5000 years ago may be completely misleading.

We can certainly agree on that point.

Sein
08-09-2014, 11:32 PM
The gedrosia map does strike me as interesting in that in eastern Europe the lack of Gedrosia does seem to have some sort of correlation with the relative success and persistence of Slavic and Baltic. It suggests that Slavic underwent its large expansion from a point is the grey zone of the Gedrosia map and as I just suggested a lowering of the Gedrosia count was probably part of its impact. This would seem to be in line with the idea of Slavic arising around the Belarus, north Ukraine area where they may have developed a distinctive autosomal signature.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

This opens up the possibility that Gedrosia was once much better represented in places like the Balkans, the southern steppe etc. Perhaps before the Slavic expansion Gedrosia was far better represeted on the north shore of the Black and Caspian Seas - something that could be very ancient.

As Gedrosia has not been found among European farmers this is a very strong indirect evidence that it was also unknown on the shores of SW Asia c. 8000-6000BC. So, its origins must be sought further east than the Levant, western Anatolia etc. I dont think its easy to see how Gedrosia was distributed at the time when farming arose. Its lack in early farmers in Europe suggests to me that it was peripherial to SW Asia.

Overall, my impression is that Gedrosia may have gained the eastern part of its distribution in pre-farming times. Certainly I would really challenge anyone to explain its distribution in terms of farming cultures. It simply doesnt work as far as I can see. It seems possible to me that Gedrosia was once distributed across inner Asia at the end of the ice age. I also think that in general there has been a long history of steppe groups being shunted south into south-west and central Asia when their power on the steppe was broken by the next wave rolling across the steppe - a process you can see time and time again. That needs to be taken into account.

I think this is a solid inference, since an Upper Paleolithic Siberian (MA1) is around 30% Gedrosia/Baloch in ADMIXTURE (to be honest though, I prefer calling this component "South Central Asian", rather than Gedrosian).

Also, I can't see any other way for Lezgins and Chechens to display such high percentages of this component, despite lacking any historical/geographic connection to South Asia. It must have entered the northern Caucasus via the steppe.

alan
08-09-2014, 11:38 PM
Gedrosia in Asia clearly relates to something other than the zone of the early rise of farming in SW Asia. Its absence in European early farmers who came from that zone seem to confirm this.

In SW Asia it seems stronger in areas where farming came substantially later like large parts of Iran, the Caucasus, the stan countries east of the south Caspian etc. So, my suspicion in that in that part of the world it might have been already present in pre-farming times.

However, in Europe I think the dating of it suggests that, wherever its original origin, it seems to have been a copper age arrival and that period would much more strongly suggest the stepping stone of Gedrosia into Europe came from the steppes then into the Balkans. Essentially archaeology is clear that during the period 4300-2800BC the main demographic intrusive events that happened to the non-Gedrosia carrying farmers in SE Europe all related to movements from the steppe into the Balkans. So, it seems virtually certain that, wherever Gedrosia originated, its route into Europe was probably from the steppes and not SW Asia. Otherwise we have to think archaeology in every European country has somehow completely missed some sort of movement from south of the Black Sea into Europe in the copper age.

What I think is putting people off a northern route is the modern genetic maps. However, there are hints that a former presence in the steppe has been wiped out by a long history of invasions from the east followed by the Russian settlement of European steppe areas over the last 300 years. The way it picks up again north of the Caspian and in the Caucasus is interesting and suggestive to me it may once have been more widespread in the European steppes.

I believe it is likely that the Slavic expansion and the late expansion of Russians has completely messed up the genetic map of the European steppe - and it was probably already completely changed anyway by wave after wave of nomads of IE and non-IE type long before that. To me the north side of the Pontic-Caspian is the most unlikely place in Eurasia to have any resemblance with the genetics of 4 or 5000 years ago. A heck of a lot of it owes much to events of the last 300 years. The steppe (the real steppe - not the forrest steppe) was virtually wiped clean of IE peoples for many centuries until it was resettled over the last few centuries so modern genetics is pretty useless in that area for reconstructing the past.


And Slavs are very high in R1a. That is the reason I believe the portion of Gedrosia that is connecting the Indus, the Caucasus and Western Europe, is very old and is more related to something like F-G,H rather than R.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-09-2014, 11:58 PM
Gedrosia is not about F-G, H. If that was the case, Mesolithic Europeans being off of the F tree, and Neolithics being off of G, would have it in Europe, but it's not. I don't think its tied to just R. Balochi and Brahui are the highest and also have the highest Near Eastern Ancestry, plus my math shows it to be a Near Eastern, ANE mix. It wouldn't just be R, but J's who were there, G's that were there, even R2, and later R1a. It just happens that R's came to dominate certain branches, like Western Europe and Africa. It wasn't in Anatolia before the last farmers left, that is clear. It is probably linked to copper workers coming out of Iran, into the Caucasus and Taurus Mountains. Archeology supports a wave into the Steppes, during Yamnaya. R1b likely originates in Central Asia/Iran, so this is a likely marker. R1b just happened to dominate the group that entered the Steppes and now dominates Western Europe at 60% of the yDNA. Gedrosia is post Neolithic Iran/Mehrgehr. The archaeology links that I posted support a Near Eastern immigration to the steppes between 4000-2000BCE, Iranian Plateau origin of Maykop and BMAC. These are seen are far as Samara during the Chalcolithic, and we see good Gedrosia in this region now. It is undercut by the Catacomb area and Eastward march of Indo Iranics. It does match up very well. Corded ware was a western relative of the Catacomb, so it is clear that they stayed on the steppes and didn't enter the forest zone. The little bit picked up by Iranics that took over Yamnaya's home, took a small part back east with them, along with a bit of R1bm269. Don't be surprised if the Samara paper coming out says just this. Watch for a Near Eastern/ANE people coming in during the Chalcolithic with some of them being R1b.

vettor
08-10-2014, 12:18 AM
The gedrosia map does strike me as interesting in that in eastern Europe the lack of Gedrosia does seem to have some sort of correlation with the relative success and persistence of Slavic and Baltic. It suggests that Slavic underwent its large expansion from a point is the grey zone of the Gedrosia map and as I just suggested a lowering of the Gedrosia count was probably part of its impact. This would seem to be in line with the idea of Slavic arising around the Belarus, north Ukraine area where they may have developed a distinctive autosomal signature.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

This opens up the possibility that Gedrosia was once much better represented in places like the Balkans, the southern steppe etc. Perhaps before the Slavic expansion Gedrosia was far better represeted on the north shore of the Black and Caspian Seas - something that could be very ancient.

As Gedrosia has not been found among European farmers this is a very strong indirect evidence that it was also unknown on the shores of SW Asia c. 8000-6000BC. So, its origins must be sought further east than the Levant, western Anatolia etc. I dont think its easy to see how Gedrosia was distributed at the time when farming arose. Its lack in early farmers in Europe suggests to me that it was peripherial to SW Asia.

Overall, my impression is that Gedrosia may have gained the eastern part of its distribution in pre-farming times. Certainly I would really challenge anyone to explain its distribution in terms of farming cultures. It simply doesnt work as far as I can see. It seems possible to me that Gedrosia was once distributed across inner Asia at the end of the ice age. I also think that in general there has been a long history of steppe groups being shunted south into south-west and central Asia when their power on the steppe was broken by the next wave rolling across the steppe - a process you can see time and time again. That needs to be taken into account.

it basically matches the findings of the DNATribes August 2014 edition

alan
08-10-2014, 12:32 AM
It is possibly evidence that some of the ANE population of Mal'ta in south central Siberia moved south-west. Mal'ta boy was a late member of a specific archaeological culture - the middle upper palaeolithic culture of south-central Asia c. 31000-22000BC. It was roughly speaking distributed between Altai in the west and transbaikal in the east and between 50 and 60 degrees north. In modern terms this is essentially the southern part of Russian Siberia running pretty well along the north side of the border of Mongolia.

I havent been able to find any archaeological evidence for a flight to the south-west from that zone as the LGM started although if there was one I would think LGM conditions due to the desert that stretched east from the Capsian to China in the LGM would have forced a route of escape to be along the southern edges of Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. There seems to have been a stark choice in the LGM. You either had to live in the mammoth steppe or much further south because those two habitable areas were separated by a wide desert which ran from the east shores of the Caspian to China and Mongolia during the LGM. I would doubt it could be crossed during the LGM which would mean people were trapped. Even if it was crossed the desert then you would then reach the vast mountains of inner asia.

At the moment I am not considering that this happened because of the lack of archaeological evidence and environmental issues. However, it might explain Gedrosia's hot spot if some group did somehow make that journey south-west from the area of Mal'ta boys culture.


I think this is a solid inference, since an Upper Paleolithic Siberian (MA1) is around 30% Gedrosia/Baloch in ADMIXTURE (to be honest though, I prefer calling this component "South Central Asian", rather than Gedrosian).

Also, I can't see any other way for Lezgins and Chechens to display such high percentages of this component, despite lacking any historical/geographic connection to South Asia. It must have entered the northern Caucasus via the steppe.

alan
08-10-2014, 12:33 AM
I will have a look at that. Cheers


it basically matches the findings of the DNATribes August 2014 edition

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 12:43 AM
The only way to explain its distribution is later.... it is a Near Eastern/ANE signal formed in a specific region of relative isolation for a time to make this signal. Mountains of Iran, SC Asia are a perfect region. It continued to stick to mountains until later incursions to the Steppes and the Levant... Arriving around the Caucasus about 5000BCE, would be a great possibility. Please find a real hole in this scenario...because archaeology is looking to back it...

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 01:07 AM
It is possibly evidence that some of the ANE population of Mal'ta in south central Siberia moved south-west. Mal'ta boy was a late member of a specific archaeological culture - the middle upper palaeolithic culture of south-central Asia c. 31000-22000BC. It was roughly speaking distributed between Altai in the west and transbaikal in the east and between 50 and 60 degrees north. In modern terms this is essentially the southern part of Russian Siberia running pretty well along the north side of the border of Mongolia.


I havent been able to find any archaeological evidence for a flight to the south-west from that zone as the LGM started although if there was one I would think LGM conditions due to the desert that stretched east from the Capsian to China in the LGM would have forced a route of escape to be along the southern edges of Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. There seems to have been a stark choice in the LGM. You either had to live in the mammoth steppe or much further south because those two habitable areas were separated by a wide desert which ran from the east shores of the Caspian to China and Mongolia during the LGM. I would doubt it could be crossed during the LGM which would mean people were trapped. Even if it was crossed the desert then you would then reach the vast mountains of inner asia.

At the moment I am not considering that this happened because of the lack of archaeological evidence and environmental issues. However, it might explain Gedrosia's hot spot if some group did somehow make that journey south-west from the area of Mal'ta boys culture.

We do have evidence... The spread of their blade technology. R1b's likely origin is east to south east of the caspian. R2 arose down south too.

parasar
08-10-2014, 02:05 AM
... It seems possible to me that Gedrosia was once distributed across inner Asia at the end of the ice age ...

When you say inner Asia, I presume that you are including Altai/South Siberia etc. What then accounts for its absence in Amerindians who are supposed to be sourced from those regions and have some of the highest ANE in the world?

alan
08-10-2014, 02:28 AM
I am not ruling out anything and have an open mind. I am just reporting what I know which may well not be complete. I actually agree that the population in that upland zone has a rather different history from that to the west in the early farming area. It could be an isolated area or regugium existed in some favourable mountain valleys somewhat like what happened in Altai. There was a desert during the LGM that basically ran roughly at the latitude of the Caspian Sea and ran east to China so nonone lived there. South of that were the mountains where Afghanistan and Iran meet the Stan countries to the north and that area may have been a possible route west. The early branches of R1b in northern Iran does make it tempting to think some of Mal'ta boy's relatives somehow did make it that way. I have wondered about refugia in that area during the LGM and have tried to find evidence but so far havent come up with anything suggestive of a move south to this area from Siberia. I have pointed out though that the post-LGM flooding of the Caspian was huge and would have had a dramatic effect is displacing people from all around it except at the south where the land rises sharply. That not only could have displaced a population who lived near the tiny LGM Caspian but it would also mean the LGM shores are in the middle of the sea today. So, evidence may be beyond recovery.

What I had posted a lot about in recent months is a post-LGM movement of hunters using pressure flaked microblades from the Altai area although that is a different scenario and most of the information on this I have read relates to northern Eurasia with the more southerly use of this technique appearing something rather different and connected to farmers.


The only way to explain its distribution is later.... it is a Near Eastern/ANE signal formed in a specific region of relative isolation for a time to make this signal. Mountains of Iran, SC Asia are a perfect region. It continued to stick to mountains until later incursions to the Steppes and the Levant... Arriving around the Caucasus about 5000BCE, would be a great possibility. Please find a real hole in this scenario...because archaeology is looking to back it...

Sein
08-10-2014, 02:32 AM
When you say inner Asia, I presume that you are including Altai/South Siberia etc. What then accounts for its absence in Amerindians who are supposed to be sourced from those regions and have some of the highest ANE in the world?

Heavy genetic drift, and the great antiquity of their mixture. They are so genetically drifted that they make the HGDP Pakistanis seem cosmopolitan (especially the Karitiana). This makes it very hard for ADMIXTURE to "disentangle" them. If one couples this with the fact that they are very ancient, stabilized, homogeneous mixtures, one begins to face a situation where ADMIXTURE will always produce a robust Native American-specific cluster that completely consumes Native American ancestry in ADMIXTURE.

alan
08-10-2014, 02:41 AM
One of the obvious targets for any group heading west from Siberia in the LGM would have been the Caspian Sea. This was much smaller during the LGM than today and temporarily far larger than today in the immediate post-LGM period. This map shows the situation

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LK0O4XYbxUU/UZz4STLvPZI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/VBNCSYYBhoM/s1600/Pre-and-post-flood-size-of-the-Black-and-Caspian-Seas.png

This is interesting because firstly the LGM shore is today under the central part of the sea and archaeological material is therefore almost beyond recovery. Secondly the post-LGM expansion of the sea was huge to the east and north, and would have displaced people far to the north and east if they had been living around those shores.

parasar
08-10-2014, 02:54 AM
Heavy genetic drift, and the great antiquity of their mixture. They are so genetically drifted that they make the HGDP Pakistanis seem cosmopolitan (especially the Karitiana). This makes it very hard for ADMIXTURE to "disentangle" them. If one couples this with the fact that they are very ancient, stabilized, homogeneous mixtures, one begins to face a situation where ADMIXTURE will always produce a robust Native American-specific cluster that completely consumes Native American ancestry in ADMIXTURE.

And I would not disagree with that at all. Genetic isolation has lead Amerindians to form their own component at the exclusion of most others. But that is the case with Gedrosia too, the Gedrosians have ownership by virtue of its reaching almost fixation in them. Which is why I had mentioned I do not like mixing ANE WHG etc. with Gedrosia on another thread.

I do not like to mix modern components such as Gedrosian with ancient gleaned components such as ASI, and especially with and true ancient material assumed to be components in modern populations such as ANE and WHG

Sein
08-10-2014, 03:07 AM
And I would not disagree with that at all. Genetic isolation has lead Amerindians to form their own component at the exclusion of most others. But that is the case with Gedrosia too, the Gedrosians have ownership by virtue of its reaching almost fixation in them. Which is why I had mentioned I do not like mixing ANE WHG etc. with Gedrosia on another thread.

I think we both agree here. ADMIXTURE components can't be cleanly tied to ANE, WHG, etc.

Regardless, I'd say that the situation isn't comparable between Gedrosia and the Native American component. The Native American component dominates Native American populations at higher K, but the Balochistanis are only 55%-60% Gedrosian, and other groups in Pakistan are only around 40%-45%. By contrast, Native Americans are around 100% "Native American", going by HarappaWorld! Also, the Native American component is restricted to the Americas, while the Gedrosia component spans all Eurasian populations that have ANE admixture (South Asians, Caucasians, West Asians, and Europeans). Even the Ket and Selkup have Gedrosian percentages, around 10%, which is higher than Bedouins. So, the Gedrosia component is a much more "genuine" component in comparison to the one modal in the Americas, which is a product of intense drift and isolation.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 04:18 AM
I think that this is all real, and Samara from the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze will show this. The cause for the rapid expansion of this component is probably linked to the 5.9kiloyear event. This is probably responsible more for Tripolye than any barbarian hordes. A drier climate would cause these pastoralists to seek new land for their herds. We see the expansion out with BMAC and Maykop. It isn't much further to the Steppes and Xinjiang. The sea was the barrier to the south, so naturally they moved North onto new open land that was not great, but probably still better than mountain valleys could offer. It also should've been lightly populated as it was not an agricultural place, but primitive hunters living on fish and horse meat. If we start saying that Gedrosia, does not truly represent a population and its expansion, then lets throw out Southeast Asian, Sub-Saharan, and the whole lot. These tests are picking up common signals within geographically distant people for a reason.
Gedrosia is not in all people that have ANE. It doesn't touch a lot of Siberia and Northeast Europe. It's also very small, almost nothing among Bedouins. Its placement is for the most part among grassland pastoralist cultures, with archaeological ties to a certain region. It is not in any European, before the metal ages. It is not in the Mesolithic Scandinavians, who have ANE. So obviously this is not the only reason. It will be linked to the archaeology, of these new people entering the Steppe, and going as far as Samara.

parasar
08-10-2014, 05:31 AM
I think we both agree here. ADMIXTURE components can't be cleanly tied to ANE, WHG, etc.

Regardless, I'd say that the situation isn't comparable between Gedrosia and the Native American component. The Native American component dominates Native American populations at higher K, but the Balochistanis are only 55%-60% Gedrosian, and other groups in Pakistan are only around 40%-45%. By contrast, Native Americans are around 100% "Native American", going by HarappaWorld! Also, the Native American component is restricted to the Americas, while the Gedrosia component spans all Eurasian populations that have ANE admixture (South Asians, Caucasians, West Asians, and Europeans). Even the Ket and Selkup have Gedrosian percentages, around 10%, which is higher than Bedouins. So, the Gedrosia component is a much more "genuine" component in comparison to the one modal in the Americas, which is a product of intense drift and isolation.

I don't know if one is more genuine or the other. Anzick-1 would be good test as that is 12500 years old - when as per the prevalent theory the native Americans should have been close to inner Asians of that same period and would not have undergone the following 12500 years of isolation in the Americas.

I would also think that a drifted and ~90% self classifying component like Kalash would show up in many other west Eurasian populations. So the reason Amerindian does not show up is that when we compare modern populations Amerindians have very few overlaps with west Eurasians. So to really figure out truly ancestral components ancient DNA is the only way.

Sein
08-10-2014, 06:09 AM
I don't know if one is more genuine or the other. Anzick-1 would be good test as that is 12500 years old - when as per the prevalent theory the native Americans should have been close to inner Asians of that same period and would not have undergone the following 12500 years of isolation in the Americas.

I would also think that a drifted and ~90% self classifying component like Kalash would show up in many other west Eurasian populations. So the reason Amerindian does not show up is that when we compare modern populations Amerindians have very few overlaps with west Eurasians. So to really figure out truly ancestral components ancient DNA is the only way.

Certainly, aDNA is the only answer.

But just factually speaking, the Gedrosia component doesn't represent the product of intense drift/isolation creating a wholly population-specific component. It is much too low in Balochistan, and much too high in South Asia, West Asia, the northern Caucasus, Europe, etc. If we relegate the Gedrosia component to this status, we would effectively throw ADMIXTURE into the dustbin, since every ADMIXTURE cluster would have to share this status with Gedrosia.

The original point of interest was why Native Americans lack the Gedrosia component, despite being so rich in ANE. And to account for that, I think the intense drift experienced by Native Americans is the answer. The main reason why we can correlate ANE with Gedrosia is because MA1 is around 30% Gedrosia (and ANE is based on MA1), WHG samples are around 0% Gedrosia, EEF samples are around 0% Gedrosia, the most ANE-rich Caucasus population is around 30% Gedrosia, and the most ANE-rich Eurasians (South Central Asians) are around 40%-45% Gedrosia. That's pretty much the story here.

Also, Anzick-1 will probably also be 100% "Native American". His temporal context doesn't override the fact that he is autosomally identical to living Native Americans, and that aspect of drift will dominate all signals.

Edit: Yet, I do entertain the possibility that Native Americans have MA1-related admixture, not direct admixture from MA1. By contrast, it is possible that South Asians have direct admixture from MA1, not merely an MA1-related population. This is a possibility, and it could account for why Native Americans lack Gedrosia, despite it's importance for MA1. Personally though, I think this is far less likely.

Shaikorth
08-10-2014, 11:12 AM
Certainly, aDNA is the only answer.

But just factually speaking, the Gedrosia component doesn't represent the product of intense drift/isolation creating a wholly population-specific component. It is much too low in Balochistan, and much too high in South Asia, West Asia, the northern Caucasus, Europe, etc. If we relegate the Gedrosia component to this status, we would effectively throw ADMIXTURE into the dustbin, since every ADMIXTURE cluster would have to share this status with Gedrosia.

The thing to remember about ADMIXTURE is that the clusters are indeed relative, and appear based on sampling (some more readily than others). Gedrosia in particular is specific to some Dodecad runs. The alleles that make it up are easily split among other components in other runs i.e it's not a "stable" component. Karitiana or Nganassans who are 100% Siberian in Dodecad K12b can easily have lots of ANE-related admixture without having Gedrosia, because that is contained in their own modal components.

No Gedrosia or a comparable component linking Orcadians to Balochistan in a similar way in this K=14 run for example. ADMIXTURE can be informative, but formal testing beats it in consistency.

http://i.imgur.com/KY1g1pa.jpg

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 02:24 PM
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html

ANE and Gedrosia do not match up well. Poles and Norwegians have the same ANE,WHG,EEF. The difference is the groups that are ancestral to both. Norway was settled much more heavily by an R1b bearing group. So Norwegians get 8% Gedrosia, and Poles are at 0.5%. It seems like there is a Near Eastern ANE group exiting the Caucasus and mixing with the Western Steppe population, before entering Europe. The Eastern half of Corded ware was never penetrated in a decent amount by R1b groups. We see the difference in Gedrosia percentages. Also, in the case of Lezgins, Pashtuns, and Brahui, the rates of Gedrosia and ANE go as follows, 27/27, 45/37, 69/27. It is not only about ANE. It is a Near Eastern/ANE mix. When Gedrosia is absent in Calculators, and we get a NW Euro component, it is shifted towards South Asians compared to the Atlantic Med, and South Asians get a NW Euro percentage. There has to be some ancestor sharing, that is more detailed than just ANE. Dienekes work shows that Gedrosia is indicating an expansion out of West Asia, that admixes into other groups.

If farmers and hunters can be isolated in Europe for 4000 years, why is it not seen as possible to get a couple thousand years of mixing in Iran and South Central Asia, to have this group have a specific signal that shows their movements?

All I'm saying is that the Samara paper is going to surprise a lot of people. Gedrosia in those Turkic populations above Kazakhstan can be explained by those Near Eastern type of skulls, bearing no resemblance to any surrounding population, appearing at Samara in the Chalcolithic.

parasar
08-10-2014, 03:08 PM
The thing to remember about ADMIXTURE is that the clusters are indeed relative, and appear based on sampling (some more readily than others). Gedrosia in particular is specific to some Dodecad runs. The alleles that make it up are easily split among other components in other runs i.e it's not a "stable" component. Karitiana or Nganassans who are 100% Siberian in Dodecad K12b can easily have lots of ANE-related admixture without having Gedrosia, because that is contained in their own modal components.

No Gedrosia or a comparable component linking Orcadians to Balochistan in a similar way in this K=14 run for example. ADMIXTURE can be informative, but formal testing beats it in consistency.
...

No doubt.

What if we prevent the Amerindian component from forming, pretty much as Harappaworld's calculator did for Kalash, do you suppose a bit of Gedrosia will popup in Amerindians as Gedrosia does have some ANE?


http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html...
ANE and Gedrosia do not match up well. Poles and Norwegians have the same ANE,WHG,EEF. The difference is the groups that are ancestral to both. Norway was settled much more heavily by an R1b bearing group. So Norwegians get 8% Gedrosia, and Poles are at 0.5%...

Gedrosia has some ANE (see the 'reflection' to MA1), and I doubt Poles do not have some Gedrosia, it's just been incorporated into other more modal components.
On lower K's (K=8), Metspalu's k5 that parallels Gedrosia is lower in Eastern Europe that in Western, but it is there in the French and the Russians but absent in Sardinians.


Y chromosome variants of the R1a clade are spread from India (ca 50%) to eastern Europe and their precise origin in space or time is still not well understood.76 In our analysis we find genetic ancestry signals in the autosomal genes with somewhat similar spread patterns. Both PC2 and k5 light green at K = 8 extend from South Asia to Central Asia and the Caucasus (but not into eastern Europe).


http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929711004885-gr2.jpg

parasar
08-10-2014, 03:27 PM
Certainly, aDNA is the only answer.

...

Edit: Yet, I do entertain the possibility that Native Americans have MA1-related admixture, not direct admixture from MA1. By contrast, it is possible that South Asians have direct admixture from MA1, not merely an MA1-related population. This is a possibility, and it could account for why Native Americans lack Gedrosia, despite it's importance for MA1. Personally though, I think this is far less likely.

This point is also brought forth on the Y and mtDNA sides.
Amerindians have no Y-P-R, just the related Y-P-Q.
They have no mtDNA U.

Shaikorth
08-10-2014, 03:37 PM
Gedrosia in Native Americans seems to be pretty random. Genetiker ran the Chachapoya genomes through K12b it and some had it, while some did not. Saqqaq (gedmatch F999906) has about 5%.

I don't think it's a marker of any specific migration given that it doesn't really appear outside a few calculators by Dienekes, except as a part of some West Asian or South-Central Asian component that is common to both West and East Europeans, but it's definitely (like West Asian/Caucasus) a Middle Eastern + ANE mix. In K12b's specific case the reason it doesn't appear in East Europeans is probably absorbtion into the North European component which reflects recent Balto-Slavic drift, not something like two different types of Indo-European migrations from outside respectively forming West and East Europeans.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 03:53 PM
Parasar,
That doesn't appear to differentiate between Gedrosia and Caucasus very well. Russians are 3% Gedrosia, so their light green would be one-third of the French size, if Gedrosia is all that it represents. I would echo what alan said before, that Balto Slavic expansion nearly wiped out all Gedrosia in the region. Western Poland has about as much as East German, but near Central Poland, it goes to around zero.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 03:56 PM
Gedrosia in Native Americans seems to be pretty random. Genetiker ran the Chachapoya genomes through K12b it and some had it, while some did not. Saqqaq (gedmatch F999906) has about 5%.

I don't think it's a marker of any specific migration given that it doesn't really appear outside a few calculators by Dienekes, except as a part of some West Asian or South-Central Asian component that is common to both West and East Europeans, but it's definitely (like West Asian/Caucasus) a Middle Eastern + ANE mix. In K12b's specific case the reason it doesn't appear in East Europeans is probably absorbtion into the North European component which reflects recent Balto-Slavic drift, not something like two different types of Indo-European migrations from outside respectively forming West and East Europeans.

Archaelogy doesn't show this Near Eastern type in Catacomb. Corded Ware is the western branch of Catacomb type people. It makes sense, why there is a different signal in Balto-Slavs.

Shaikorth
08-10-2014, 04:28 PM
Archaelogy doesn't show this Near Eastern type in Catacomb. Corded Ware is the western branch of Catacomb type people. It makes sense, why there is a different signal in Balto-Slavs.

I'd wait to see the autosomes, the offerings of physical anthropology in these matters are iffy (see pages 39-41 (http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:667495/FULLTEXT01.pdf) for one reason why hold this view). Many more admixture runs do not show this sort of difference in SC-Asian autosomal signals in Balto-Slavs and NW-Europeans. Then there's the matter of getting the "Gedrosia difference" to show in formal testing.

parasar
08-10-2014, 07:06 PM
Parasar,
That doesn't appear to differentiate between Gedrosia and Caucasus very well. Russians are 3% Gedrosia, so their light green would be one-third of the French size, if Gedrosia is all that it represents. I would echo what alan said before, that Balto Slavic expansion nearly wiped out all Gedrosia in the region. Western Poland has about as much as East German, but near Central Poland, it goes to around zero.

True, I believe at K=8, Caucasus and Gedrosia do not break up.

vettor
08-10-2014, 07:11 PM
True, I believe at K=8, Caucasus and Gedrosia do not break up.

Maybe, Gedrosian, west-asian and south-asian is as simple as anyone who has DYS426=11

with the ancient thracian 192-1 being found to be H1b1 (ydna) , who can deny that H, I, J, L, T and G did not migrate very early and together and head into Europe and travel as far as they could

Would R and Q group with DYS426=12 be gedrosian is the real question!

Agamemnon
08-10-2014, 07:34 PM
I really suspect the latter, that it arrived later with Arab migrants from the east. The presumed neolithic waves south from Egypt don't show J-M267.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially given the high J-M267 frequencies in Northern Omotic speakers and Afars as per Plaster's data.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-10-2014, 08:17 PM
Any test results involving native Americans are going to be bogus, without a pure East Asian and pure ANE group. That's common sense. Gedrosia in Eurasians, will be the result of migrations out of west Asia, to the steppes in the case of Europeans. We can see skull shape Chang over long periods, but a rapid change among part of a group, doesn't make sense.

AJL
08-10-2014, 08:46 PM
We can see skull shape Chang over long periods, but a rapid change among part of a group, doesn't make sense.

http://www.livinganthropologically.com/anthropology/human-skulls-boas-head-shape/

Shaikorth
08-10-2014, 08:54 PM
Any test results involving native Americans are going to be bogus, without a pure East Asian and pure ANE group. That's common sense. Gedrosia in Eurasians, will be the result of migrations out of west Asia, to the steppes in the case of Europeans. We can see skull shape Chang over long periods, but a rapid change among part of a group, doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't rely on the bones overmuch, those classifications can easily contradict continent-wide genetic differences, as shown in the paper I linked and also as AJL's link says skull shapes have non-negligible plasticity. The big question is if Gedrosia is a true ancestral component whose presence or lack thereof separates Northwest and East Europeans as opposed to something unique to that Dodecad run (for instance, it didn't show in Lazaridis et al paper's Admixture run, nor in the Yunusbayev et al admixture run I linked earlier).

On the side of formal testing, can we get something like a Treemix edge from Balochis to Orcadians that would not exist in Belorussians?

parasar
08-10-2014, 08:57 PM
Maybe, Gedrosian, west-asian and south-asian is as simple as anyone who has DYS426=11

with the ancient thracian 192-1 being found to be H1b1 (ydna) , who can deny that H, I, J, L, T and G did not migrate very early and together and head into Europe and travel as far as they could

Would R and Q group with DYS426=12 be gedrosian is the real question!

I have a feeling that much of the Gedrosian connection is at the Y-G,H level, and the Thracian would support but would be too late to confirm that.
The Haak et al F could be H too.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536

After typing with the GenoY25 assay, individual deb34 was found to belong to hg G (M201), whereas individuals deb20 and deb38 both fall basally on the F branch (derived for M89 but ancestral for markers M201, M170, M304, and M9), i.e., they could be either F or H (Table 1). To further investigate the hg status beyond the standard GenoY25 assay, we amplified short fragments around SNP sites M285, P287, and S126 to further resolve deb34 into G1, G2*, and G2a3, and around SNP site M69 to distinguish between F and H [26]. deb34 proved to be ancestral for G1-M285 but derived for G2*-P287 and additional downstream SNP S126 (L30), placing it into G2a3. deb20 and deb38 were shown to be ancestral at M69 and hence basal F (M89), and remained in this position because we did not carry out further internal subtyping within the F clade.

alan
08-10-2014, 10:19 PM
I had a another thought about this issue and the fact that I cannot find the archaeological evidence of a trail from where Mal'ta boy lived back into the high Gedrosia zone.

It just struck me that perhaps the reason for this is that the shared genes of Gedrosia rich areas and Mal'ta boy might date right back to the time when the first modern humans moved to Siberia. The book Early Upper Palaeolithic Beyond Western Europe indicates that the likely origin of these people who arrived in Altai c. 42000BC was in similar cultures people passing through Iran and the the Stan countries south of Kazakhstan and north of Afghanistan. Could it be that Gedrosia is a remnant of the elements of this early trail i.e the people who settled on earlier legs of the same trail and were the ancestors of those who made it further east all the way to Altai, Baikal etc. That way we dont have to seek a movement back from Mal'ta etc during the LGM - something that would have been problematic anyway due to the desert belt.

I stumbled on this here and was astonished to see someone else having similar thoughts 6 years ago about the spread of P with the first humans taking this route towards Altai and beyond.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1gKF9iWqt0gC&pg=RA1-PT315&lpg=RA1-PT315&dq=first+modern+humans+in+Altai+from+central+Asia&source=bl&ots=pMOJVAJvnF&sig=eH4XbtBHujW6rBpY5vpEDol5iRA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7OnnU-_yCoaw0QXU84CYAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=first%20modern%20humans%20in%20Altai%20from%20ce ntral%20Asia&f=false

Certainly, aDNA is the only answer.

But just factually speaking, the Gedrosia component doesn't represent the product of intense drift/isolation creating a wholly population-specific component. It is much too low in Balochistan, and much too high in South Asia, West Asia, the northern Caucasus, Europe, etc. If we relegate the Gedrosia component to this status, we would effectively throw ADMIXTURE into the dustbin, since every ADMIXTURE cluster would have to share this status with Gedrosia.

The original point of interest was why Native Americans lack the Gedrosia component, despite being so rich in ANE. And to account for that, I think the intense drift experienced by Native Americans is the answer. The main reason why we can correlate ANE with Gedrosia is because MA1 is around 30% Gedrosia (and ANE is based on MA1), WHG samples are around 0% Gedrosia, EEF samples are around 0% Gedrosia, the most ANE-rich Caucasus population is around 30% Gedrosia, and the most ANE-rich Eurasians (South Central Asians) are around 40%-45% Gedrosia. That's pretty much the story here.

Also, Anzick-1 will probably also be 100% "Native American". His temporal context doesn't override the fact that he is autosomally identical to living Native Americans, and that aspect of drift will dominate all signals.

Edit: Yet, I do entertain the possibility that Native Americans have MA1-related admixture, not direct admixture from MA1. By contrast, it is possible that South Asians have direct admixture from MA1, not merely an MA1-related population. This is a possibility, and it could account for why Native Americans lack Gedrosia, despite it's importance for MA1. Personally though, I think this is far less likely.

ADW_1981
08-10-2014, 11:06 PM
Maybe, Gedrosian, west-asian and south-asian is as simple as anyone who has DYS426=11

with the ancient thracian 192-1 being found to be H1b1 (ydna) , who can deny that H, I, J, L, T and G did not migrate very early and together and head into Europe and travel as far as they could

Would R and Q group with DYS426=12 be gedrosian is the real question!

Ancient thracian being YDNA H1b1? source? mtDNA makes more sense.

ADW_1981
08-10-2014, 11:08 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially given the high J-M267 frequencies in Northern Omotic speakers and Afars as per Plaster's data.

Sure, but that's all in eastern Africa. I guess my comment was regarding the movement of people across Africa from east to west and any aDNA found in Canary Islands and the relative antiquity of those lineages.

Agamemnon
08-11-2014, 12:11 AM
Sure, but that's all in eastern Africa. I guess my comment was regarding the movement of people across Africa from east to west and any aDNA found in Canary Islands and the relative antiquity of those lineages.

Well I think J1 in the Canary Islands might've been brought by a Para-berber speaking population which would eventually become Guanche.
Either that or the Phoenicians did more than just visit the place.

The arabs never settled in these islands.

Sein
08-11-2014, 12:35 AM
The thing to remember about ADMIXTURE is that the clusters are indeed relative, and appear based on sampling (some more readily than others). Gedrosia in particular is specific to some Dodecad runs. The alleles that make it up are easily split among other components in other runs i.e it's not a "stable" component. Karitiana or Nganassans who are 100% Siberian in Dodecad K12b can easily have lots of ANE-related admixture without having Gedrosia, because that is contained in their own modal components.

No Gedrosia or a comparable component linking Orcadians to Balochistan in a similar way in this K=14 run for example. ADMIXTURE can be informative, but formal testing beats it in consistency.

http://i.imgur.com/KY1g1pa.jpg

I think some misunderstanding is coming into play here. The term "Gedrosia" is just a useful mnemonic. In Zack's runs, it's called "Baloch". At FTDNA, they first called it "Eurasian Heartland", and now they call it "Central Asian". Lazaridis et al. simply refer to it as the "beige component". When I talk about "Gedrosia", I'm referring to any component modal in southern Central Asia+northwestern South Asia, and which appears at high percentages in other West Eurasians. The best term is "South Central Asian" for this family of equivalent clusters, usually appearing at K16, which tends to be the "best" K. Once one arrives at a very extensive data-set, this sort of cluster will happen. It isn't arbitrary. I use the term "Gedrosia" because people are very familiar with it, and I don't want to impose a more accurate term.

When it does happen, WHG and EEF show 0%, MA1 shows around 30%-40%, Lezgins show around 20%-30%, and Sardinian show around 0%. The pattern is solid.

I think it's pretty obvious that formal testing is the real deal. But that wasn't the point. I think people aren't fully understanding (or following) the discussion.

Agamemnon
08-11-2014, 01:00 AM
Just stumbled upon this IBD sharing map on Verenich's website:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ashkenaziibd1.png

Seems pretty neat.
Though it doesn't tell us much about the direction of gene flow of course.

Source: http://verenich.wordpress.com/2014/07/26/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7%D 0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D 0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%85-ibd-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BC/

parasar
08-11-2014, 02:22 AM
Ancient thracian being YDNA H1b1? source? mtDNA makes more sense.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/page/2/

The calls show that P192-1 wasn’t E, G, or T1, and that T2G2 wasn’t E1.

If V2 and K8 were male, then they weren’t G.

P192-1

C1b2-Z12417
E-CTS9663/M5514/PF1774
E-M5428
E-Z15671
E1a2b-Z15104
E2b-Z15833
G-M3481/PF2880
G-M3580/PF3046
G-Z3104
G-Z3247
G2-Z6474
H1a1d2-Z4361
H1a1d2c2-Z12603
H1b1-Z14031
H1b1-Z14057
H1b2-Z14266
H1b2-Z14274
H3a-Z13440
H3b1-Z13710
Q1b1a1-FGC1904/Y2220
T1-L490

alan
08-11-2014, 02:40 AM
Its a real mystery that Gedrosia is found among a Mal'ta but today its strength is in a very different area. Could Gedrosia have once been along the northern route from Iran to Siberia attested in the early Upper Palaeolithic, possibly once distribution along that band and then part of that band was displaced southwards during the LGM and also by later north-south movements? I think this must be very ancient as there is no real way to link up its distribution entirely as far as I can see.

There has also always the issue of R2. http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2006/01/11/0507714103.DC1/07714Fig6.jpg

Mal'ta was an R person but was in a culture than didnt really extend west or south of Altai and that culture had existed in that distribution since c. 31000BC-22000BC which probably should mean that R first arose within that culture. So, how did some R i.e. R2 end up in south Asia? It seems that some sort of displacement south-west from central Siberia must have happened. The map makes it look like it may have entered India from somewhere around Taikistan or Kyrgystan although when it made a move further south I do not know.

parasar
08-11-2014, 03:08 AM
Is there a map of Gedrosia that includes Asia?
Don't recall a map, but raw numbers are here - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
Indus Valley - ~50%, Northern India - ~40% Southern India -~30%.
East of South Asia, it drops to minimal ~0.

Edit: Came across this one posted at forumbiodiversity Dodecad ancestry project thread.

http://i39.tinypic.com/bhhkwy.jpg

Generalissimo
08-11-2014, 04:07 AM
Gedrosia is found at 9.8% among non-Indo-European Basques.

The light green K=15 component from the last Lazaridis PDF is a much better signal of the Indo-European expansion and probably the Samara genomes, although even this is severely handicapped by drift, mostly among the Kalash.


K=15 shows the appearance of a component, maximized in the Kalash, that becomes the most predominant signal in Indus Valley and Caucasus populations. It is also prominent in the rest of South Asia, Central Asia, Near East and in diminishing strength in Europe. It is absent in Sardinians, Basques, and all ancient Europeans, although it is present in MA1. This component also does not appear in North and East Africa (except for Egyptians and Tunisians) where other West Eurasian admixture is observed. This is consistent with MA1 related population having contributed some ancestry to present-day Europeans not accounted for by West Eurasian Hunter Gatherers and Early European Farmers. The presence of this component in the Near East contrasts with its absence in Stuttgart, consistent with the widely shared negative f3(Near East; Stuttgart, MA1) statistics (Table 1) indicating that present-day Near Easterners have been affected by gene flow not present in early Near Eastern migrants into Europe. Interestingly, a study of present-day South Asian populations (18) also revealed the presence of a common ancestral population (labeled k5 there) between northern parts of South Asia, the Caucasus and Central Asia and Europe (but not Sardinians). The absence of the similar component in ancient Europeans reinforces our idea that present-day Europeans have ancestry from a third ancestral population after the Neolithic transition and that this may be related to the evidence for admixture between Ancestral North Indians (related to the k5 population) and Ancestral South Indians that took place over the last ~4,000 years (19).

http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6639v2

It's useful to read between the lines sometimes when reading this paper. On occasions it seems that the authors are talking about something they already know, but trying hard to pretend they don't.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-11-2014, 05:01 AM
Gedrosia is found at 9.8% among non-Indo-European Basques.

The light green K=15 component from the last Lazaridis PDF is a much better signal of the Indo-European expansion and probably the Samara genomes, although even this is severely handicapped by drift, mostly among the Kalash.



http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6639v2

It's useful to read between the lines sometimes when reading this paper. On occasions it seems that the authors are talking about something they already know, but trying hard to pretend they don't.

Kalash might be good for a catacomb, corded ware signal, but I'm not sure about yamnaya. I guess we will have to wait and find out.

Shaikorth
08-11-2014, 05:59 AM
I think some misunderstanding is coming into play here. The term "Gedrosia" is just a useful mnemonic. In Zack's runs, it's called "Baloch". At FTDNA, they first called it "Eurasian Heartland", and now they call it "Central Asian". Lazaridis et al. simply refer to it as the "beige component". When I talk about "Gedrosia", I'm referring to any component modal in southern Central Asia+northwestern South Asia, and which appears at high percentages in other West Eurasians. The best term is "South Central Asian" for this family of equivalent clusters, usually appearing at K16, which tends to be the "best" K. Once one arrives at a very extensive data-set, this sort of cluster will happen. It isn't arbitrary. I use the term "Gedrosia" because people are very familiar with it, and I don't want to impose a more accurate term.

When it does happen, WHG and EEF show 0%, MA1 shows around 30%-40%, Lezgins show around 20%-30%, and Sardinian show around 0%. The pattern is solid.

I think it's pretty obvious that formal testing is the real deal. But that wasn't the point. I think people aren't fully understanding (or following) the discussion.

As I implied in a previous post, I'm talking about Gedrosia specifically as it appears in Dodecad K12b, i.e. a component whose presence or lack thereof separates Northwest and East Europeans. I got the impression that some think it's a real difference in ancestral components and not something like Gedrosian getting covered under the North European component of K12b for Balto-Slavs due to that component being affected by their founder effect. I don't deny that Europeans overall share an ancestral component with SC-Asians as that shows in many tests and hence I've got no beef with something like Harappaworld's Baloch which behaves in a more plausible way (Lithuanians have 7% as opposed to 0% of K12b Gedrosia). :)

Chad Rohlfsen
08-11-2014, 03:11 PM
I have a feeling that much of the Gedrosian connection is at the Y-G,H level, and the Thracian would support but would be too late to confirm that.
The Haak et al F could be H too.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536

That is because they focused on just the three ancestral groups, not on their arraignments upon entry. I have a feeling that the Lithuanian will be catacomb sharing with the kalash, and nw Europeans are yamnaya.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-12-2014, 12:41 AM
I think that what would explain the difference, is something that I have said before. Gedrosia is probably representative of people that entered the Steppes and ended up settling more among Western Europeans. The component that came next, to link up with Indo Iranics, is Caucasus. It is the brother of Gedrosia, and part of the West Asian, tie that binds us all. I think this is evident in the Thracian, being 40% Caucasus, 10% more than modern Bulgarians, and 24% more than Ukrainians, where Thracians are expected to be before entering the Balkans. The Dane, at 25% Gedrosia, is about 16% more than modern Danes. West Asian genes played a role in both groups, just two separate pieces of the northern half of Southwest Asia. I think the low levels of Gedrosia and Caucasus in Ukraine could be that that was the main settling place of settlers from the Balkan collapse, plus the Balto-Slavic expansion from SE Poland, NW Ukraine.

Mher
10-17-2014, 09:15 PM
R1b1 come to Europe and Anatolia and Kaukaz from

J Man
10-17-2014, 09:39 PM
R1b1 come to Europe and Anatolia and Kaukaz from north-east Iran!2900 bc.Alazano Beden and Trialet culture was IE culture after Kur-Araxian culture!

Well there really is no solid evidence yet for that.

Mher
10-18-2014, 08:08 AM
Armenian lezghin Talysh Gilan R1b1 have 5000 year!2900 B.C IE culture come to Kavkaz South.2800 B.C. IE come to Europe!Oldest IE culture have in North East Iran 3800-2200 B.C.(Я вернулся к изучению раскопок, проведенных на трех холмах к юго-востоку от Каспийского моря: Шах-тепе, Туренг-тепе, Тепе-Гиссар. Как известно, наиболее глубокие слои этих искусственных холмов относятся к VIII-IV тыс. до н. э. и характерризуются крашеной керамикой. Около конца IV тыс. (по современной датировке – в начале IV тыс. до н. э. – И. Р.) начала появляться черная керамика, неизвестная ранее в Иране, которая активно вытесняла крашеную, преобладая на протяжении всего III тысячелетия до н. э. В начале II тыс. до н. э. (в конце III тыс. до н. э. – И. Р.) вся эта культура исчезла.).IE migration from Iran to South Kaukaz and Anatolia and Europe!

Mher
10-18-2014, 08:12 AM
Сходство черной керамики индоариев Митанни в Северной Сирии с керамикой Северо-Восточного Ирана привело меня к мысли о том, что последняя, возможно, тоже принадлежала индоариям. Мое внимание привлекла цилиндрическая печатка из Тепе-Гиссар, найденная в слое III B, дата которого – конец (начало. – И. Р.) III тыс. до н. э. Ее сюжет - колесница, запряженная лошадью, которой правит человек. Многочисленные остатки конских костяков были найдены в Шах-тепе, что подтверждало широкое использование лошадей уже в III тыс. до н. э. Третий элемент, необходимый для командования армией боевых колесниц, тоже был налицо… Это был военный горн, или труба. В Тепе-Гиссар были найдены три горна: один из золота и два из серебра. …Командовать колесницами без горна невозможно. Три важнейших элемента, главные отличительные черты культуры индоариев – конь, колесница и горн – подтвердили возможность распознать в культуре жителей юго-востока Каспия III тыс. до н. э. зачатки культуры индоариев, которые легли в основу Митаннийского царства

Из данного текста мы бы сделали однозначный вывод о том, что в IV тысячелетии до н. э. на северо-восток Ирана пришли индоевропейцы – т. е. люди, использовавшие коня и колесницу. Добавим, что археологи обнаружили сходство керамики, найденной в Северо-Восточном Иране и в Уруке, т. е. в Шумере . Единственное, чего не хватало для полноты картины – известия о том, что в такую керамику иногда добавляли растертые ракушки. И в итоге удалось найти в литературе подобное сообщение: Керамика с примесью ракушек выявлена в третьем слое Белта на южном побережье Каспийского моря

Mher
10-18-2014, 08:50 AM
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ceramics-ix

Mher
10-18-2014, 09:17 AM
i think from Shah Tepe, Tureng Tepe ,Hisar Tepe

Mher
10-18-2014, 09:18 AM
i thinkWe need paleoanaliz from Shah Tepe, Tureng Tepe ,Hisar Tepe

Mher
10-19-2014, 10:01 PM
sorry L23 :)

Joe B
10-19-2014, 10:43 PM
sorry L23 :)
What are you sorry about?

Mher
10-20-2014, 07:08 PM
not L51 :)

ZephyrousMandaru
11-20-2014, 11:36 AM
I've posted this elsewhere, but I recently revisited this article, and I wish give some feedback on what I had read.

This is a very interesting experiment, but I don't think Armenians or any other Caucasian ethnic group should be used as a proxy for ascertaining the formative stages of the ancient, prehistorical representative of the West Asian or Middle Eastern gene pool. The problem of course as outlined in the post, is that Armenians are a modern population. Their relative homogeneity has only been preserved for, at best, a couple thousand years.
Caucasians, like Sardinians, are a highly genetically drifted population, induced by high levels of endogamy and thousands of years of geographic isolation due to the topographic features of the Caucasus Mountains.

If anything, the Caucasus is a refugium, not a source for this genetic variation.

Armenians themselves are a very homogeneous group, this homogeneity has been achieved through inbreeding. While inbreeding does create a distinctive gene pool over time relative to more heterogeneous populations, it also culls genetic diversity. This also applies to groups such as the Kalash, Druze, Assyrians and Jews. The vast overwhelming majority of my IBD sharing has been exclusively with other Assyrians, and nearly all my matches on 23andMe have been Assyrians.

As some here may know, Assyrians are a very closed community, who's religious identity has contributed to their insularity and therefore acted as a barrier to gene flow from other Non-Christian groups thereby ensuring their homogeneity. Another issue I take with this experiment, is that different calculators yield different outcomes. For example, if another calculator such as MDLP K23b were used, my top donor population wouldn't be Armenians, it would actually be Iraqi Mandaeans and Eastern Mizrahim Jews.

If both of these populations were removed however, Armenians would be used, and this demonstrates that the Oracle tools are very sensitive to which populations you use as references and what populations the Oracles select depends entirely on how well their genotype approximates the reference populations used. What can be gleaned from these relationships are genetic similarity between those groups, not who's ancestral to who.

fastIBD sharing doesn't support any gene flow occurring between Armenians and Assyrians with no recent Armenian or Assyrian ancestry. Which eliminates the possibility that Assyrians are ancestral to Armenians or vice versa. Which leaves us only with a third-party ancestral group that both populations descend from, that is no longer extant. This is a matter that can only be conclusively resolved with ancient DNA.

Because when you're using using modern populations you can't determine the direction of gene flow in most cases.

DMXX
11-20-2014, 02:27 PM
Absolutely. The Armenians look like they've received some sort of gene flow from around the Balkans themselves (particularly traced via Y-DNA I subclades I recall) if I remember Peter Hrechdakian's comments from a couple of years back. Nothing will replace actual aDNA from the region. The only purpose of this investigation was to see whether an ancestral component modal in what is now West Asia could define the various groups included with a modern proxy. The Armenians satisfied this, albeit roughly.