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DMXX
08-12-2014, 01:33 PM
Opening this thread with a review written by Lamberg-Karlovsky from 2002:



This review of recent archaeological work in Central Asia and Eurasia attempts to trace and date the movements of the Indo-Iranians - speakers of languages of the eastern branch of Proto-Indo-European that later split into the Iranian and Vedic families. Russian and Central Asian scholars working on the contemporary but very different Andronovo and Bactrian Margiana archaeological complexes of the 2nd millennium B.C. have identified both as Indo-Iranian, and particular sites so identified are being used for nationalist purposes. There is, however, no compelling archaeological evidence that they had a common ancestor or that either is Indo-Iranian. Ethnicity and language are not easily linked with archaeological signature, and the identity of the Indo-Iranians remains elusive.


[PDF (http://mapageweb.umontreal.ca/tuitekj/cours/IE/LambergKarlovsky.pdf)]

Although over a decade old, the review gives us a very good run-through of the features in Andronovo and BMAC which have corresponded to various traits found among modern Indo-Iranians. In addition, it provides a balanced account of the culture observed in both complexes. Kuz'mina's The Origin of the Indo-Iranians is a far more comprehensive and current read and I'd refer anyone interested in the intricacies to read it.

Goes without saying the authors' wariness towards genetics was appropriate for 2002, but the evidence-based boon experienced in population genetics since then would certainly warrant a re-assessment of that perspective now.

One interesting theme I have observed in Indo-Iranian archaeology papers is the deduction that the Andronovo-BMAC interactions were, relatively speaking, peaceful. There are fortified settlements in the BMAC, but don't appear to be in response to northern nomads, rather a relic of architectural traditions deriving from their origin in West Asia that were continued for religious reasons (article above). Drawing on H Haarmann's paper regarding the process of Indo-Europeanisation (link (http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf34/DPhaarman34.pdf)), it is reasonable to presume this "peace" stemmed from a lack of agricultural competition between the two (agro-pastoralism vs. subsistence farming).

DMXX
08-14-2014, 04:48 PM
A lecture delivered by none other than David Anthony (Dec 2012). Although the first two thirds deals with the development of horse domestication and wheeled vehicles, Anthony discusses Sintashta and the BMAC in the final third.

Note that Anthony explains the Andronovo/Sintashta-BMAC interactions were not one-way and evidence of material borrowing from the BMAC (pyramid engravings on pots) was found all the way back in the Sintashta and Potapovka cultures for an amount of time.

Another point of interest is Anthony too subscribes to the idea of a "contact zone" between Andronovo and BMAC, although he specifies this is the case for Indo-Aryan, implying it is less so for Iranian. Is there any linguistic support for this distinction?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HliaR2Ep24s

Jean M
08-14-2014, 08:05 PM
Another point of interest is Anthony too subscribes to the idea of a "contact zone" between Andronovo and BMAC, although he specifies this is the case for Indo-Aryan, implying it is less so for Iranian. Is there any linguistic support for this distinction?

Yes. Indo-Aryan has many more words borrowed from the otherwise unknown language assumed to be that of the BMAC.

DMXX
08-14-2014, 08:26 PM
Yes. Indo-Aryan has many more words borrowed from the otherwise unknown language assumed to be that of the BMAC.

I am aware of certain words in both Avestan and Sanskrit with non-IE origins (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Sinttashta_Qu.pdf); are you aware of any texts in the literature which outline the nature of these words?

One post-2000 paper (cannot recall title unfortunately) explains that these non-IE words were largely agricultural, religious or to do with everyday objects, but only one loanword was to do with weaponry (mace), prompting the authors to speculate the early Indo-Iranians had some sort of military advantage (contradicts the "peaceful" consensus view somewhat, doesn't it?).

Jean M
08-14-2014, 09:06 PM
The paper you are looking for is Alexander Lubotsky, The Indo-Iranian substratum, in Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European: Linguistic and Archaeological Considerations. Papers presented at an international symposium held at the Tvrminne Research Station of the University of Helsinki 8-10 January 1999. (Mmoires de la Socit Finno-ougrienne 242.) Chr. Carpelan, A. Parpola, P. Koskikallio (eds.). Helsinki 2001, 301-317. [free online in pdf. Just Google.]


I have a couple of other papers by Witzel, to which you have access. The 2005 one may be most useful in this context.

parasar
08-14-2014, 09:07 PM
Anthony's book has Soma and Indra as non-IE among some 383 words in Indo-Aryan!
http://books.google.com/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA454

If we look at Mandala 6 of the Rg Veda considered to be the one of most archaic we see the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_6

The dedication as given by Griffith is in square brackets

6.1 (442) [Agni.] tuvṃ h agne pratham manta
6.2 (443) [Agni.] tuvṃ h kṣatavad yśo
6.3 (444) [Agni.] gne s kṣeṣad ṛtap ṛtej
6.4 (445) [Agni.] ythā hotar mnuṣo devtātā
6.5 (446) [Agni.] huv vaḥ sūnṃ shaso yvānam
6.6 (447) [Agni.] pr nvyasā shasaḥ sūnm chā
6.7 (448) [Agni.] mūrdhnaṃ div aratm pṛthivy
6.8 (449) [Agni.] pṛkṣsya vŕṣṇo aruṣsya n shaḥ
6.9 (450) [Agni.] haś ca kṛṣṇm har rjunaṃ ca
6.10 (451) [Agni.] pur vo mandrṃ diviyṃ suvṛktm
6.11 (452) [Agni.] yjasva hotar iṣit yjīyān
6.12 (453) [Agni.] mdhye htā duroṇ barhṣo rḷ
6.13 (454) [Agni.] tuvd vśvā subhaga sabhagāni
6.14 (455) [Agni.] agn y mrtiyo dvo
6.15 (456) [Agni.] imm ū ṣ vo tithim uṣarbdhaṃ
6.16 (457) [Agni.] tuvm agne yajn~āṃ
6.17 (458) [Indra.] pbā smam abh ym ugra trda
6.18 (459) [Indra.] tm u ṣṭuhi y abhbhūtiojā
6.19 (460) [Indra.] mahṁ ndro nṛvd carṣaṇipr
6.20 (461) [Indra.] dyar n y indra abh bhma arys
6.21 (462) [Indra. Visvedevas.] im u tvā purutmasya kārr
6.22 (463) [Indra.] y ka d dhviyaś carṣaṇīnm
6.23 (464) [Indra.] sut t tvṃ nmiśla indra sme
6.24 (465) [Indra.] vŕṣā mda ndare ślka ukth
6.25 (466) [Indra.] y ta ūtr avam y param
6.26 (467) [Indra.] śrudh na indra hvyāmasi tvā
6.27 (468) [Indra.] km asya mde km u asya pītv
6.28 (469) [Cows.] gvo agmann ut bhadrm akran
6.29 (470) [Indra.] ndraṃ vo nraḥ sakhiyya sepur
6.30 (471) [Indra.] bhya d ? vāvṛdhe vīryāyaṁ
6.31 (472) [Indra.] bhūr ko rayipate rayīṇm
6.32 (473) [Indra.] pūrviyā purutmāni asmai
6.33 (474) [Indra.] y jiṣṭha indara tṃ s no dā
6.34 (475) [Indra.] sṃ ca tv jagmr gra indra pūrvr
6.35 (476) [Indra.] kad bhuvan rthakṣayāṇi brhma
6.36 (477) [Indra.] satr mdāsas tva viśvjanyāḥ
6.37 (478) [Indra.] arvg rthaṃ viśvvāraṃ ta ugra
6.38 (479) [Indra.] pād it d u naś citrtamo
6.39 (480) [Indra.] mandrsya kavr diviysya vhner
6.40 (481) [Indra.] ndra pba tbhya * sut mdāya
6.41 (482) [Indra.] heḷamāna pa yāhi yajṃ
6.42 (483) [Indra.] prti asmai ppīṣate
6.43 (484) [Indra.] ysya tyc chmbaram mde
6.44 (485) [Indra.] y rayivo rayṃtamo
6.45 (486) [Indra.] y nayat parāvtaḥ
6.46 (487) [Indra.] tuvm d dh hvāmahe
6.47 (488) [Indra, Etc.] svādṣ klāym mdhumāṁ utyṃ
6.48 (489) [Agni and Others.] yaj-yajā vo agnye
6.49 (490) [Visvedevas.] stuṣ jnaṃ suvratṃ nvyasībhir
6.50 (491) [Visvedevas.] huv vo devm ditiṃ nmobhir
6.51 (492) [Visvedevas.] d u tyc ckṣur mhi mitryor ṁ
6.52 (493) [Visvedevas.] n td div n pṛthivynu manye
6.53 (494) [Pusan.] vaym u tvā pathas pate
6.54 (495) [Pusan.] sm pūṣan vidṣā naya
6.55 (496) [Pusan.] hi vṃ vimuco napād
6.56 (497) [Pusan.] y enam āddeśati
6.57 (498) [Indra and Pusan.] ndrā n pūṣṇā vayṃ
6.58 (499) [Pusan.] śukrṃ te anyd yajatṃ te anyd
6.59 (500) [Indra-Agni.] pr n vocā sutṣu vāṃ
6.60 (501) [Indra-Agni.] śnthad vṛtrm ut sanoti vjam
6.61 (502) [Sarasvati.] iym adadād rabhasm ṛṇacytaṃ
6.62 (503) [Asvins.] stuṣ nrā div asy prasntā
6.63 (504) [Asvins.] kva ty valg puruhūt ady
6.64 (505) [Dawn.] d u śriy uṣso rcamānā
6.65 (506) [Dawn.] eṣ siy no duhit divojḥ
6.66 (507) [Maruts.] vpur n tc cikitṣe cid astu
6.67 (508) [Mitra-Varuna.] vśveṣāṃ vaḥ sat~ṃ jyṣṭhatamā
6.68 (509) [Indra-Varuna.] śruṣṭ vāṃ yaj dyataḥ sajṣā
6.69 (510) [Indra-Visnu.] sṃ vāṃ krmaṇā sm iṣ hinomi
6.70 (511) [Heaven and Earth.] ghṛtvatī bhvanānām abhiśryā
6.71 (512) [Savitar.] d u ṣy devḥ savit hiraṇyyā
6.72 (513) [Indra-Soma.] ndrāsomā mhi td vām mahitvṃ
6.73 (514) y adribht prathamaj ṛtvā
6.74 (515) [Soma-Rudra.] smārudrā dhāryethām asurym
6.75 (516) [Weapons of War.] jīmtasyeva bhavati prtīkaṃ


So, if incorporated from outside, not only did Indra show up in the earliest book of the Rg Vedic people, but became one with the most invoked!



24. May he with might unclose for us the cow's stall, whosesoe'er it be,
To which the Dasyu-slayer goes.
25. O Indra Satakratu, these our songs have called aloud to thee,
Like mother cows to meet their calves.
26. Hard is thy love to win: thou art a Steer to him who longs for steers:
Be to one craving steeds a Steed.
27. Delight thee with the juice we pour for thine own great munificence:
Yield not thy singer to reproach.
28. These songs with every draught we pour come, Lover of the Song, to thee,
As milch-kine hasten to their young
29. [B]To thee most oft invoked, amid the many singers' rivalry
Who beg with all their might for wealth.
30. Nearest and most attractive may our laud, O Indra come to thee.
Urge thou us on to ample wealth.
31. Brbu hath set himself above the Panis, o'er their highest head,
Like the wide bush on Ganga's bank.

DMXX
08-14-2014, 09:19 PM
Anthony's book has Soma and Indra as non-IE among some 383 words in Indo-Aryan!
http://books.google.com/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA454


Very interesting. The word "xar" is still used in modern Iranic languages and also in some Arabic dialects.

Humanist
08-14-2014, 10:00 PM
Very interesting. The word "xar" is still used in modern Iranic languages and also in some Arabic dialects.

What is its meaning?

DMXX
08-14-2014, 11:08 PM
What is its meaning?

xar (alternate spelling khar I suppose) means "donkey". Another Persian word for it is olagh, but I suspect it's Turkic in origin (given otagh, or "room", definitely is).

During my time in the Gulf Arab states, I frequently heard khara and hamaar used for "donkey", but my Arab friends told me only the latter is official.

Humanist
08-14-2014, 11:22 PM
xar (alternate spelling khar I suppose) means "donkey". Another Persian word for it is olagh, but I suspect it's Turkic in origin (given otagh, or "room", definitely is).

During my time in the Gulf Arab states, I frequently heard khara and hamaar used for "donkey", but my Arab friends told me only the latter is official.

I am not familiar with "khar" = "donkey" but I am familiar with all of the other words. Forms of the word "hamaar" are attested in many Semitic languages. It is attested as long ago as Akkadian, in the form "himaru." In Sureth it is "hmara." The words "olagh" and "otagh" are both loans in my Sureth dialect, and are used quite frequently. :)

parasar
08-15-2014, 12:21 PM
What is its meaning?

In India it also often used for horse.
The forms are ghur and ghora.
eg. Ghur-savaar

DMXX
08-15-2014, 12:40 PM
In India it also often used for horse.
The forms are ghur and ghora.
eg. Ghur-savaar

"savaar" meaning "to ride"? That is the Modern Persian word for it also, if that's the case. :)

parasar
08-15-2014, 05:37 PM
Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fdrav%2Fdravet&text_number=+665&root=config


Dravidian etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Dravidian : *kudir-
Meaning : horse
Proto-South Dravidian: *kudir-ai

Proto-Telugu : *kudir-

Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *gur_-

Proto-Gondi-Kui : *gur_am

Notes : It is still not quite clear if the Central Dravidian forms belong here indeed (*kudir- > *kudr- > *gur_-). Very probable is their being borrowed from a Telugu dialect.
dravet-meaning,dravet-sdr,dravet-tel,dravet-koga,dravet-gnd,dravet-notes,

Search within this database

South Dravidian etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-South Dravidian : *kudir-ai
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

Tamil : kutirai
Tamil meaning : horse; cock of a gun
Malayalam : kutira
Malayalam meaning : horse, cavalry
Kannada : kudire, kudure, kudare
Kannada meaning : horse, a knight at chess; cock of a gun
Kodagu : kudɨre
Kodagu meaning : horse
Tulu : kudurè
Tulu meaning : horse; lock of a gun, (B-K.) catch of an umbrella; (B-K.) grasshopper
Proto-Nilgiri : *kudir[]

Number in DED : 1711
sdret-prnum,sdret-tam,sdret-tammean,sdret-mal,sdret-malmean,sdret-kan,sdret-kanmean,sdret-kod,sdret-kodmean,sdret-tul,sdret-tulmean,sdret-kt,sdret-dednum,

Search within this database

Nilgiri etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Nilgiri : *kudir[]
Meaning : horse
South Dravidian etymology: South Dravidian etymology

Kota : kudyr
Toda : kɨɵɨr
Number in DED : 1711
ktet-meaning,ktet-prnum,ktet-kota,ktet-toda,ktet-dednum,

Search within this database

Telugu etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Telugu : *kudir-
Meaning : horse
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

Telugu : kudira
Dialectal forms (1) : kudaramu
Dialectal forms (2) : gur_r_amu
Number in DED : 1711
telet-meaning,telet-prnum,telet-tel_1,telet-tel_2,telet-tel_3,telet-dednum,

Search within this database

Kolami-Gadba etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *gur_-
Meaning : horse
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

Kolami : gurram
Naikri : ghurram
Naiki : kurmam/kurrmam
Parji : gurrol (pl. gurrocil)
Number in DED : 1711
kogaet-meaning,kogaet-prnum,kogaet-kolami,kogaet-naikri,kogaet-naiki,kogaet-parji,kogaet-dednum,

Search within this database

Gondwan etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Gondi-Kui : *gur_am
Meaning : horse
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

Proto-Gondi : *guram

Konda : gur_am

Proto-Kui-Kuwi : *gurom-i

Notes : Bisyllabic root?
gndet-meaning,gndet-prnum,gndet-gon,gndet-kon,gndet-kui,gndet-notes,

Search within this database

Gondi etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Gondi : *guram
Meaning : horse
Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

Koya Gondi : gurram (pl. gurrak)
Number in DED : 1711
Number in CVOTGD : 1157
gonet-meaning,gonet-prnum,gonet-gondi_ko,gonet-dednum,gonet-voc_num,

Search within this database

Konda etymology :

Search within this database
Konda : gur_am
Meaning: horse
Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

Number in DED : 1711
konet-meaning,konet-prnum,konet-dednum,

Search within this database

Kui-Kuwi etymology :

Search within this database
Proto-Kui-Kuwi : *gurom-i
Meaning : horse
Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

Kuwi (Fitzgerald) : gūrumi
Kuwi (Schulze) : gurromi
Number in DED : 1711
kuiet-meaning,kuiet-prnum,kuiet-kuwi_f,kuiet-kuwi_s,kuiet-dednum,

DMXX
08-19-2014, 06:21 AM
Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fdrav%2Fdravet&text_number=+665&root=config

Going by Wietzel's breakdown (http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/ejvs0501/ejvs0501article.pdf), an early substrate into "common" Indo-Iranian was distinct from later Dravidian influence in the later stages of the Rig Veda's development:


http://i61.tinypic.com/23rpcmq.png

Jean M
08-19-2014, 10:03 AM
Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.

The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

*

Broadly speaking, the earliest phase of Dravidian expansion shows no sign of agriculture but (lexically) reflects animal herding and wild food processing. This is associated with the split of Brahui from the remainder. The next phase, including Kurux and Malto, shows clear signs of agriculture (taro production but not cereals) and herding, while South and Central Dravidian have the full range of agricultural production. Fuller (2003) and Southworth (2006) link this to the aptly named South Neolithic Agricultural Complex (SNAC) dated to around 2300-1800 BC in Central India.

soulblighter
08-19-2014, 10:59 AM
The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

*

Not that there is a language associated with every activity, but if the Dravidians were foragers, and the Indo-Aryans were pastoralists, who do you think brought farming into the subcontinent? Considering farming requires settlement and cannot be transmitted orally, I would expect this group to have been very succesful in reproduction.



"savaar" meaning "to ride"? That is the Modern Persian word for it also, if that's the case. :)

Savaar in Hindi, is from modern Persian I think (probably came with the persianized turko-mongols). The Sanskrit word to ride is Rohanam, as in Ashvarohanam(horse riding) or hasthyarohanam(elephant riding).

Jean M
08-19-2014, 11:30 AM
Not that there is a language associated with every activity, but if the Dravidians were foragers, and the Indo-Aryans were pastoralists, who do you think brought farming into the subcontinent? Considering farming requires settlement and cannot be transmitted orally, I would expect this group to have been very succesful in reproduction.

Yes we certainly do see farming languages taking over in most places other than Europe, so Dravidian seemed to me the most likely language for Mehrgarh until I read Roger Blench, Re-evaluating the linguistic prehistory of South Asia (2008) (available online - just Google). Now I'm inclined to think that the IVS language was absorbed by Indo-Aryan. That would put the north part of South Asia in the same position as Europe. It lost its first farmer languages to IE.

The term Para-Mundic for the unknown language of Witzel's RV I stage (post #14 above) is misleading, since this language appears unrelated to Munda, or at least I retain that impression from reading that I did in a rush some time ago! You probably know more than I.

Jean M
08-19-2014, 12:06 PM
Bit more on this topic. In India, the hemione or khor (Equus hemionus khur) was the only equid known before the horse; a few specimens still survive in the Rann of Kutch.

soulblighter
08-19-2014, 02:38 PM
Bit more on this topic. In India, the hemione or khor (Equus hemionus khur) was the only equid known before the horse; a few specimens still survive in the Rann of Kutch.

Yes, I was about to bring this up as well. It is apparently not directly to the African wild ass, and its range extended all the way to eastern Iran at some point. But I don't know if the Donkey in south Asia has any relationship with the khor.
Speaking about the usage of "Khar", Khara was a demon (and supposedly a brother of Ravana the main antagonist) in the epic Ramayana and his armies were described as a "cloud of grey donkeys". He was the governor of Danda kingdom (where the Dandaka forest existed from where Sita was kidnapped), which bordered Kosala, the kingdom of Rama(the main protagonist).

parasar
08-19-2014, 02:51 PM
The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

*

I'm more inclined to believe that Khar or the Dravidian Khurram was a horse or horse-like and not a donkey.
It could indeed have been a swift wild ass of the kind you mentioned is still seen in Gujarat.

Types of onager - wild ass - are found in a number of places and Herodotus does mention them in conjunction with Indians who had crossed the Hellespont into Greece with Xerxes' army.

The Indian cavalry were equipped in the same manner as those on foot; but they rode both on horseback and in chariots: horses and wild-asses were yoked to those cars.



Yes we certainly do see farming languages taking over in most places other than Europe, so Dravidian seemed to me the most likely language for Mehrgarh until I read Roger Blench, Re-evaluating the linguistic prehistory of South Asia (2008) (available online - just Google). Now I'm inclined to think that the IVS language was absorbed by Indo-Aryan. That would put the north part of South Asia in the same position as Europe. It lost its first farmer languages to IE.

The term Para-Mundic for the unknown language of Witzel's RV I stage (post #14 above) is misleading, since this language appears unrelated to Munda, or at least I retain that impression from reading that I did in a rush some time ago! You probably know more than I.

An earlier form perhaps, but Dr. Witzel does consider Para-Munda as Austric and related to Munda from the etymological examples he gives.
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/MT-Substrates.pdf

Para-Munda loan words in the Rgveda ... It is much more difficult to discern Munda/Austro-Asiatic words, and to distinguish them from those of an unknown local substrate (remnants of the Gangetic "Language X") ... Among the c. 380 'foreign' words of the RV, those with certain prefixes are especially
apt to be explained from Munda (viz. directly from Austro-Asiatic) ... Typical prefixes in modern Munda are such as p-, k-, m-, ro-, ra-, ma-, a, ə-, u-, ka- ... some of them are indeed attested in the c. 300 'foreign words' of the RV ...

Munda-like prefixes are thus very common in the RV. One has to agree with Kuiper
1991: 39f: "According to some scholars Munda was never spoken west of Orissa, Bihar,
Madhya Pradesh and eastern Maharashtra... The obvious occurrence of Old Munda names
in the Rigveda points to the conclusion that this statement should be revised." If (some of)
these words should not go back directly to Proto-Munda, one may think, especially in the
case of the untypical formation Cər, of an unknown western Austro-Asiatic language, "Para-Munda" (cf. Kuiper 1962: 51, 102)...

Is the Indus language therefore a kind of Proto-Munda? Against this may speak first of all, as Kuiper states (1991), that the RV substrate does not have infixes like Munda... If this is correct, then Rgvedic Proto-Munda represents a very old stage of Austro-Asiatic indeed...

Munda and Para-Munda names...
The Greater Panjab names of Gandhra, Kubh, Krumu, Kamboja may be added ...

An important result therefore is, that the language of the Indus people, at least those in the Panjab, must have been Para-Munda or a western form of Austro-Asiatic...


If Diakonoff's proposal was borne out, the gvedic Para-Munda substrate in the Panjab of c. 1500 BCE would represent an early link to Sumerian ... Notably, Sumerologists, though without any firm reasons going beyond some vague mythological allusion to more eastern territories (Dilmun, etc.), think that the Sumerians immigrated from the east, from the Indus area ...

In short, the Panjab is an area of a Pre-gvedic, largely Para-Munda substrate that apparently overlays a still older local level which may be identical with Masica's "language X" found in the Gangetic plains (Hindi).

The large number of agricultural words alone (Kuiper 1955) that have no Dravidian explanation indicates that the language of the Indus people cannot have been Dravidian (cf. also Southworth 1988: 663)...

As we can no longer reckon with Dravidian influence on the early RV (see
immediately below), this means that the language of the pre-gvedic Indus civilization, at
least in the Panjab, was of (Para-)Austro-Asiatic nature.
This means that all proposals for a decipherment of the Indus script must start with
the c. 300 (Para-)Austro-Asiatic loan words in the RV and by comparing other Munda and
Austro-Asiatic words.

DMXX
08-20-2014, 02:16 AM
Savaar in Hindi, is from modern Persian I think (probably came with the persianized turko-mongols). The Sanskrit word to ride is Rohanam, as in Ashvarohanam(horse riding) or hasthyarohanam(elephant riding).

Fascinating. One possible cognate with Modern Persian could be ruheh ("on top of"). Is rohanam the infinitive word for "riding" or does it mean "I ride", if you or perhaps parasar know?

Jean M
08-20-2014, 09:57 AM
An earlier form perhaps, but Dr. Witzel does consider Para-Munda as Austric and related to Munda from the etymological examples he gives.


That was in 1999. He now labels the substrate that seems to represent the IVC language as the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate. See Michael Witzel, The linguistic history of some Indian domestic plants, Journal of Biosciences, vol. 34, no. 6 (December 2009), pp. 829-833.



These words span all of local village life, from plant and animal names to the ‘small tradition’ of religion and ritual. They will have constituted the lost language of the northern Indus Civilization and its Neolithic predecessors. As they abound in Austroasiatic-like prefixes, I have (somewhat unfortunately) chosen to call it Para-Munda. It indeed resembles Munda in its typical use of prefixes (as in English for--give, for-get, be-get, be-head) but it does not overlap with very much as only a few words so far can be shown to have the typical Munda -n- infixes. Further, it has to be noted that the Munda languages have been recorded only over the past 200 years and a gap of some 3000 years of unrecorded developments separates them from the time of the RV. Perhaps we should simply call this language the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate (taken from the Kabul river and the Beas). Its plant names include those of vegetables, cereals, trees and so on.

soulblighter
08-20-2014, 11:50 AM
Fascinating. One possible cognate with Modern Persian could be ruheh ("on top of"). Is rohanam the infinitive word for "riding" or does it mean "I ride", if you or perhaps parasar know?

I must correct myself... Rohanam the verb by itself can mean two different things. One is to mount(as in a horse), and the other is to grow. It is more common to use Vaha for riding(literally to be carried) say in a bus and Chala for operating/walking/driving/riding in many cases... So while a horse rider is an Ashvarohi , a chariot operator is a Ratha Chalakaha.
I am ascending is Aham adhiRohami (here adhirohanam means to ascend, so many different interpretations possible )
He ascends is Saha adhiRohati
She ascends is Saa adhiRohati
You ascend is Tvam adhiRohasi
It ascends is Tat adhiRohati

Also, Aarohanam means to climb, Avarohanam means to descend



All actions follow those same suffix for verbs(few exceptions)

parasar
08-20-2014, 02:30 PM
That was in 1999. He now labels the substrate that seems to represent the IVC language as the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate. See Michael Witzel, The linguistic history of some Indian domestic plants, Journal of Biosciences, vol. 34, no. 6 (December 2009), pp. 829-833.


These words span all of local village life, from plant and animal names to the small tradition of religion and ritual. They will have constituted the lost language of the northern Indus Civilization and its Neolithic predecessors. As they abound in Austroasiatic-like prefixes, I have (somewhat unfortunately) chosen to call it Para-Munda. It indeed resembles Munda in its typical use of prefixes (as in English for--give, for-get, be-get, be-head) but it does not overlap with very much as only a few words so far can be shown to have the typical Munda -n- infixes. Further, it has to be noted that the Munda languages have been recorded only over the past 200 years and a gap of some 3000 years of unrecorded developments separates them from the time of the RV. Perhaps we should simply call this language the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate (taken from the Kabul river and the Beas). Its plant names include those of vegetables, cereals, trees and so on.


Even here while trying to distance himself from the term Para-Munda, you can see the Munda connection is mentioned, whatever he may call it.
His problem is that he has had to change the east-west geography of India as it is some of the oldest Rg Vedic texts that both show Austric influences and mention geographic locations from the east.

parasar
08-20-2014, 10:59 PM
Fascinating. One possible cognate with Modern Persian could be ruheh ("on top of"). Is rohanam the infinitive word for "riding" or does it mean "I ride", if you or perhaps parasar know?

That looks correct.
The Pakhtoon roh (cf. Rohilai) may also be related.

pegasus
04-23-2015, 12:58 AM
Are there any admixture results for BMAC or Yaz human remains?