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View Full Version : Why is Urnfield culture linked to R1b ?



Il PapÓ
08-23-2014, 11:08 PM
I ask this question because on 15 males remains from 1000BC linked to the urnfield culture and from the Lichtenstein cave in Germany,12 were I2a2b,2 R1a1 and only one was R1b (http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/diss/2006/schilz/schilz.pdf) . R1b was clearly not dominant, So why this theory of R1b linked to the Urnfield culture ?

Il PapÓ
08-24-2014, 05:28 PM
any thoughts ?

Humanist
08-24-2014, 05:36 PM
I am going to move this to the R1b section. Perhaps it will get more attention there.

Il PapÓ
08-26-2014, 12:09 AM
I am going to move this to the R1b section. Perhaps it will get more attention there.

doesn't seems so unfortunately :\

Agamemnon
08-26-2014, 12:16 AM
I think "Why shouldn't R1b be linked to the spread of Urnfield?" is a better way of putting it.

No one's saying that Urnfield was exclusively R1b, and we have yet to get a good idea of the haplogroups which were to be found in the Urnfield horizon.

ADW_1981
08-26-2014, 12:35 AM
I ask this question because on 15 males remains from 1000BC linked to the urnfield culture and from the Lichtenstein cave in Germany,12 were I2a2b,2 R1a1 and only one was R1b (http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/diss/2006/schilz/schilz.pdf) . R1b was clearly not dominant, So why this theory of R1b linked to the Urnfield culture ?

I don't recall the context of this grave, but how do we know it's Urnfield? I thought those cultures typically cremated their dead. I would not expect any skeletons for DNA testing.

Il PapÓ
08-26-2014, 12:44 AM
I think "Why shouldn't R1b be linked to the spread of Urnfield?" is a better way of putting it.

I don't know but in french it sounds like I Believe Urnfield is R1b and others need to prove me not. While in fact it's the contrary I don't really buy that theory Of Urnfield Culture heavily spreading R1b even if my statement is far from definitive .


No one's saying that Urnfield was exclusively R1b, and we have yet to get a good idea of the haplogroups which were to be found in the Urnfield horizon.

Yes, but a lot of people seems to believe that they were heavily R1b (something like 50% or more).Ok we only have samples from only one location and era but that's still an indication that R1b was far to be dominant yet.

Il PapÓ
08-26-2014, 01:03 AM
I don't recall the context of this grave, but how do we know it's Urnfield? I thought those cultures typically cremated their dead. I would not expect any skeletons for DNA testing.

Me too but for wikipedia they found the remains as long with Urnfield artefact.So they have really great chance of belonging to the urnfield culture especially if a datation by Carbon 14 has been done on the skeletons. The question is why weren't they buried ?



The Lichtenstein Cave is an archaeological site near Dorste, Lower Saxony, Germany. The cave is 115 metres long and was discovered in 1972. Finds include the skeletal remains of 21 females and 19 males from the Bronze Age, about 3000 years old. In addition, about 100 bronze objects (ear, arm and finger rings, bracelets) and ceramic parts from the Urnfield Culture were found.

Agamemnon
08-26-2014, 01:43 AM
I don't know but in french it sounds like I Believe Urnfield is R1b and others need to prove me not. While in fact it's the contrary I don't really buy that theory Of Urnfield Culture heavily spreading R1b even if my statement is far from definitive.

You understand it wrong then, there is no belief implied here. I think the most parsimonious correlation with R1b's diffusion is the Bell Beaker reflux, so Urnfield doesn't particularly strike me as the best fit for R1b in Western Europe as a whole (unless we are to discuss specific subclades or U152 of L21 for instance).


Yes, but a lot of people seems to believe that they were heavily R1b (something like 50% or more).Ok we only have samples from only one location and era but that's still an indication that R1b was far to be dominant yet.

People will always believe in crackpot theories no matter the amount of evidence & research at hand (believe me, this happens all the time in scholarly circles).
It is better if we do not get stuck with such meaningless concerns (by the looks of it, it'll take at least 20 years for non-hobbyists to get up-to-date with what's been going on in this field).

As ADW_1981 said this issue is further complicated by the fact that Urnfield sees the emergence of cremation on a wide scale.
Until we get more data I'm not sure we can draw conclusions just now... Either way, I'm not exactly sure whether R1b being "dominant" actually is significant, all that is required is a non-negligible frequency to appear if we are to establish a correlation.
We cannot expect the past to reflect our contemporary gene pool in every single detail, only to uncover certain elements which will help us in establishing an overall pattern.