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lgmayka
08-25-2014, 02:19 PM
The family stories posted on the Geno 2.0 web site (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/ourstory/allstories) (probably visible only to logged-in customers) often raise more questions than they answer. For example:

C5c1a is a Eurasian subclade, found from Germany to Uzbekistan (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c5_genbank_sequences.htm). This subclade has 4 Geno stories. Three of them describe Central European ancestry (German, Hungarian, and Polish), but the fourth suggests a Native American lineage:
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C5c1a apache101786 My mothers mother was from New Mexico. She was adopted but we were told she had some Spanish and Apache. I traced her back on ancestry.com and found out her great grandmother had a Spanish name, that was 1800's New Mexico.
---

Since the maternal grandmother is adopted, nothing is certain in this case. Nevertheless, it is very intriguing. It is easy to picture an Apache woman 100 years ago pretending to be Central European, in order to place her daughter for adoption more easily. The reverse--a Central European woman pretending to be Apache--is much harder to imagine.

Táltos
08-25-2014, 02:39 PM
Interesting. Over at 23andme, they have a few threads about this. You will probably have to sign in to view. In this one https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/19821/ a poster indicates that their maternal line has been in Georgia, U.S.A. before the early 1700s, and has no links to Poland. (Where the poster thinks the latest research shows this haplogroup to be found.)

In this other thread https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/21796/ someone is reporting they are Choctaw and European, but they don't clarify which side of the family is which. Another person reports that their direct maternal line is French Canadian, but supposedly from Normandy. She is C5b, but we know 23andme doesn't always give the full subclade.

lgmayka
08-25-2014, 03:11 PM
She is C5b, but we know 23andme doesn't always give the full subclade.
23andMe lists the defining mutations of C5b as:
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C5b defining mutations
variant call rCRS anc
i3000926 10454 T
i5049873 10454 T
i4000690 16518 G
i4990307 16527 C
---

Anc refers here not to the true ancestral state, but to the rCRS.

Phylotree (http://phylotree.org/tree/subtree_M.htm)now considers these three mutations at 10454, 16518, and 16527 to define subclade C5c. Thus, any 23andMe assignment to C5b actually refers to (what we now call) C5c.

lgmayka
08-25-2014, 04:57 PM
In this one https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/19821/ a poster indicates that their maternal line has been in Georgia, U.S.A. before the early 1700s, and has no links to Poland. (Where the poster thinks the latest research shows this haplogroup to be found.)

In this other thread https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/21796/ someone is reporting they are Choctaw and European, but they don't clarify which side of the family is which. Another person reports that their direct maternal line is French Canadian, but supposedly from Normandy.
The real question, then, is whether C5c1 occurs in the British Isles or France. If it does, one can easily deduce its colonial migration to North America.

But if C5c1 does not occur in Western Europe, the puzzle becomes far more difficult.

Táltos
08-25-2014, 05:45 PM
The real question, then, is whether C5c1 occurs in the British Isles or France. If it does, one can easily deduce its colonial migration to North America.

But if C5c1 does not occur in Western Europe, the puzzle becomes far more difficult.
Sure, too bad the Haplogroup mtDNA C Project doesn't list the most distant known maternal ancestor in the results. There are eight C5c1a listed. If you go to the map though you can pull up four of them. One lists Tennessee, another Jackson, Alabama, the third one has Cantanzaro, Italy, and the fourth Bashkortostan. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/C_Haplogroup_mtDNA/default.aspx?section=mtmap If you put in just C5c on the map, a lone one in Afghanistan shows up.

They do list in the background of the project that those who have haplogroup mtDNA C have been found in these areas:
Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, California, Canada, Chile(Basque) ,Colombia, Colorado, Cuba, Ecuador, France, Germany, Guatemala,, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Russian Federation, Spain (Basque), Sweden, United States, Venezuela.

But no specific breakdown of which subclade of C. One could speculate about the C in France though given the history of France's early settlement in Canada. Had they been Native American and brought back to France? It would be interesting to know more about that one.

soulblighter
09-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Sure, too bad the Haplogroup mtDNA C Project doesn't list the most distant known maternal ancestor in the results. There are eight C5c1a listed. If you go to the map though you can pull up four of them. One lists Tennessee, another Jackson, Alabama, the third one has Cantanzaro, Italy, and the fourth Bashkortostan. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/C_Haplogroup_mtDNA/default.aspx?section=mtmap If you put in just C5c on the map, a lone one in Afghanistan shows up.

They do list in the background of the project that those who have haplogroup mtDNA C have been found in these areas:
Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, California, Canada, Chile(Basque) ,Colombia, Colorado, Cuba, Ecuador, France, Germany, Guatemala,, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Russian Federation, Spain (Basque), Sweden, United States, Venezuela.

But no specific breakdown of which subclade of C. One could speculate about the C in France though given the history of France's early settlement in Canada. Had they been Native American and brought back to France? It would be interesting to know more about that one.

Maybe migration routes for C4a1, C5c and C7b are interconnected. Are there any C5's outside the U.S in the Americas?
Oot, My closest mtDNA matches for C4a1 are from Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Nordic countries (and interestingly not to the C4a1a presently in NE India).

Táltos
09-10-2014, 02:29 AM
Maybe migration routes for C4a1, C5c and C7b are interconnected. Are there any C5's outside the U.S in the Americas?
Oot, My closest mtDNA matches for C4a1 are from Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Nordic countries (and interestingly not to the C4a1a presently in NE India).
I can't really find much on C5. I found this, but it's 4 yrs old now. You might have seen this already. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015214

Hopefully someone is researching these interesting subclades of mtDNA C, and we read about them soon.

C5B1
10-12-2016, 04:43 PM
I tested with 23andme and they gave me the C5B1 haplogroup, which seems to be C5C1a thru MTDNA Haplogroup Analysis (James Lick)... My great grandmother came to USA from Poland in 1903, and outside of that, I don't know much else, except that it points towards native Siberian ancestry.

Cinnamon orange
10-12-2016, 06:04 PM
I tested with 23andme and they gave me the C5B1 haplogroup, which seems to be C5C1a thru MTDNA Haplogroup Analysis (James Lick)... My great grandmother came to USA from Poland in 1903, and outside of that, I don't know much else, except that it points towards native Siberian ancestry.

What part of Poland?

ArmandoR1b
10-12-2016, 07:22 PM
The story for C5c1a apache101786 (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/ourstory/allstories) has changed. "My maternal line dead ends with a lady named Lucy C. (Unknown maiden name) born 1846 in Tennessee.
" A person having been adopted and then the descendants being "told" she had some Spanish and Apache ancestry is extremely weak evidence.

The Ian Logan site (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/haplogroup_select.htm) which compiles mtDNA results from published studies and 23andme submissions to him does not have a single Native American or Hispanic for C5c1a or even for C5 (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c5_genbank_sequences.htm).

lgmayka
10-12-2016, 07:45 PM
I tested with 23andme and they gave me the C5B1 haplogroup, which seems to be C5C1a thru MTDNA Haplogroup Analysis (James Lick)... My great grandmother came to USA from Poland in 1903, and outside of that, I don't know much else, except that it points towards native Siberian ancestry.
The Polish Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults) has 4 members tested C5c1a.

C5B1
10-12-2016, 08:07 PM
I was never told by my family, they never talked about it ever, but someone who was helping on a board to research this said they found a record stating:
Teofila Piotrowska immigrated to the U.S. with her two (2) children Antoni and Ann on May 20, 1903. Stanley had immigrated sometime earlier. Stanley was naturalized a U.S. citizen in U.S. District Court of Eastern Michigan around 1928.
There is a 1920 U.S. Census record for a Teofila Piotrowska ( a divorced mother) living at 381 Dyar Street in Hamtramck, Wayne County, MI (present-day zip code 48212.
There is a September 12, 1918 WW I Draft Registration card for a “Stanistan” Piotrowski living at 381 Dyar Street in Hamtramck, Wayne County, MI.
There are U.S. Naturalization Index Cards for Stanislaw Antoni Piotrowski.
There is a May 20, 1903 Baltimore arrival record for Teofila and her children. They listed their last residence as “Kirzworek” Russia/Poland. Their destination was 148 Grand Avenue in Cleveland Ohio where they were going to join their husband and father Stanislaus Piotrowski.
Btw, I've never been able to find that in any search myself.

C5B1
10-12-2016, 11:55 PM
C5 is still in the C haplogroup though? Wouldn't that still be Siberian ancestry?

lgmayka
10-13-2016, 03:10 PM
There is a September 12, 1918 WW I Draft Registration card for a “Stanistan” Piotrowski living at 381 Dyar Street in Hamtramck, Wayne County, MI.
"Stanistan" is almost certainly Stanisław. The small L has an upward-sloping strikethrough.

C5B1
10-16-2016, 02:44 AM
The Polish Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults) has 4 members tested C5c1a.

Per a conversation with Ian Logan, C5c1a's maternal lineage is Eurasian, Native Siberian Ancestry.

C5B1
11-03-2016, 05:07 PM
Per a conversation with Ian Logan, C5c1a's maternal lineage is Eurasian, Native Siberian Ancestry.

Yes, they may have lived in Poland, but their ancestry is still Siberian, and interestingly enough, I show almost 2 percent Siberian on some of the GEDMATCH admixtures.

C5B1
11-03-2016, 05:11 PM
The Polish Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=mtresults) has 4 members tested C5c1a.

I'm only seeing two that are C5c1a?

lgmayka
11-11-2016, 02:33 PM
I'm only seeing two that are C5c1a?
The other two have their results set to Project Members Only. For better or for worse, that is now the default setting, and many project members don't bother to change it.

procoptodon
01-28-2017, 10:07 AM
C5b is not listed as a siberian haplogroup

http://journals.plos.org//plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015214

Could be some old central asian haplogroup but I doubt its native. Very interesting result though

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-28-2017, 01:52 PM
C5b is not listed as a siberian haplogroup

/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015214

Could be some old central asian haplogroup but I doubt its native. Very interesting result though

I don't know about this specific case but the appearance of "Native American" apparently isn't that uncommon in some Europeans, I get around 1% myself quite consistently and do think it could relate to something that came Westward out of Central Asia way back in time. I've also seen it suggested it could also relate to the Huns in some instances. I also have a potential archaic match from Altai Siberia. All my ancestry for a couple of hundred years I'm pretty sure has been in Britain. John

ArmandoR1b
01-28-2017, 03:16 PM
C5b is not listed as a siberian haplogroup

/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015214

Could be some old central asian haplogroup but I doubt its native. Very interesting result though

The study that you used is by Denenko et al. and it is just one of the studies that Ian Logan used for the page on C5 at http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c5_genbank_sequences.htm

The other studies are Dryomov, Duggan, Hartmann, Herrnstadt, Ingman_gyll, Kivisild, Liu Schoenberg, Sharma, Starikovskaya, Tanaka, and Volodko

Links to a lot of those studies can be found in the Phylotree list of publications at http://www.phylotree.org/mtDNA_seqs.htm

Even with those other studies C5 is not found in a single person with Native American ancestry in the direct maternal line. Since the person that allegedly had Native American C5c1a has changed their story (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3058-Allegedly-Native-American-C5c1a&p=192046&viewfull=1#post192046) then the title of the thread should be changed and the initial post should have an update in it about the story being changed.

apache101786
09-07-2019, 09:15 PM
The family stories posted on the Geno 2.0 web site (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/ourstory/allstories) (probably visible only to logged-in customers) often raise more questions than they answer. For example:

C5c1a is a Eurasian subclade, found from Germany to Uzbekistan (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c5_genbank_sequences.htm). This subclade has 4 Geno stories. Three of them describe Central European ancestry (German, Hungarian, and Polish), but the fourth suggests a Native American lineage:
---
C5c1a apache101786 My mothers mother was from New Mexico. She was adopted but we were told she had some Spanish and Apache. I traced her back on ancestry.com and found out her great grandmother had a Spanish name, that was 1800's New Mexico.
---

Since the maternal grandmother is adopted, nothing is certain in this case. Nevertheless, it is very intriguing. It is easy to picture an Apache woman 100 years ago pretending to be Central European, in order to place her daughter for adoption more easily. The reverse--a Central European woman pretending to be Apache--is much harder to imagine.

So I am the person you are quoting in your post. I was Googling my haplogroup to see if any new information has come out and found this post in this forum. Just to clarify, my maternal grandmother was from New Mexico and was adopted. I have done extensive research on her biological parents. Her father was New Mexican and he is who she gets her Native American from. Her mother was an Anglo settler to New Mexico. So my C5c1a haplogroup has nothing to do with my Native ancestry.

lgmayka
09-08-2019, 12:22 PM
So my C5c1a haplogroup has nothing to do with my Native ancestry.
Interestingly, YFull shows only Polish members of C5c1a (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C5c1a/). But of course, that sample is limited to YFull customers, and only those who have specified a country of matrilineal ancestry.

Ian Logan's C5c page (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c5_genbank_sequences.htm) shows, in addition to the Polish C5c1a, an entry from Germany and one from Uzbekistan.

apache101786
09-08-2019, 01:14 PM
I have read that C5c1a has mostly Polish origins. I am still working on my maternal line. It dead ends in the southeastern U.S. back in the early 1800s. It has been very hard to find records because they are all based around the male head of household.

ArmandoR1b
09-09-2019, 02:26 AM
So I am the person you are quoting in your post. I was Googling my haplogroup to see if any new information has come out and found this post in this forum. Just to clarify, my maternal grandmother was from New Mexico and was adopted. I have done extensive research on her biological parents. Her father was New Mexican and he is who she gets her Native American from. Her mother was an Anglo settler to New Mexico. So my C5c1a haplogroup has nothing to do with my Native ancestry.

It was apparent, as you can see from my previous posts here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3058-Allegedly-Native-American-C5c1a&p=192046&viewfull=1#post192046) and here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3058-Allegedly-Native-American-C5c1a&p=210510&viewfull=1#post210510), that your direct maternal line was not of Native American ancestry and why I had posted that the title of the thread should have been changed. It's really frustrating when context and abundant clues aren't used to determine when certain stated situations are misworded and therefore should not be taken literally.