Origin/Distribution of L1/L1a

[Rukha]

My paternal haplogroup is L1-M27/L1a according to 23andme. My father is an ethnic Tajik from Panjsher province in Afghanistan. Does anyone have more info on this subclade and haplogroup L in general?

http://gentis.ru/img/y/M27.gif

8 out of the 13 Baloch participants in this Y-DNA study on Afghanistan exhibit it:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uDDAlqJzhXI/T3NuJELm1tI/AAAAAAAAEts/g0s9-VfwAkw/s1600/Clipboard05.png

[Rukha]

This is kind of interesting:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-persian-in-china-y-chromosome-of.html


Present Y chromosomes support the Persian ancestry of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and Eminent Navigator Zheng He

Chuan-Chao Wang et al.

Sayyid Ajjal is the ancestor of many Muslims in areas all across China. And one of his descendants is the famous Navigator of Ming Dynasty, Zheng He, who led the largest armada in the world of 15th century. The origin of Sayyid Ajjal's family remains unclear although many studies have been done on this topic of Muslim history. In this paper, we studied the Y chromosomes of his present descendants, and found they all have haplogroup L1a-M76, proving a southern Persian origin.

[tamilgangster]

It most likely originated via the basal eurasian migration(SW asian type ENF). Judging by its distrobution, it is very likely the haplogroup carried by the original dravidian speakers

[BMG]

Who do you think original Dravidian speakers are ? At least presently its maximum diversity is in north eastern part of Dravidian speaking area . L1 though appears to be younger and less diverse than R1a when I look into the str values

[tamilgangster]

Who do you think original Dravidian speakers are ? At least presently its maximum diversity is in north eastern part of Dravidian speaking area . L1 though appears to be younger and less diverse than R1a when I look into the str values

Whats makes me assume thats its the original dravidians is that the areas its peaks in are around the indus valley and in the south. Also judging from the face it is also found around the persian gulf area, I think this haplogroup might have basal eurasian affinities related to SW asian type ENF

[Coldmountains]

Whats makes me assume thats its the original dravidians is that the areas its peaks in are around the indus valley and in the south. Also judging from the face it is also found around the persian gulf area, I think this haplogroup might have basal eurasian affinities related to SW asian type ENF

We can only speculate which language was orginally spoken by L carriers but if i am not wrong L is also quite frequent among Kalash and Burusho in the Hindukush. Even in Tajikistan not few have it but i dont know if Dravidians had any presence there. The origin of Dravidians is very mysterious and some assume that they orginated once in Balutschistan, where L peaks today. But the association of proto-dravidians with any haplogroup is speculative as long as there are no ancient samples tested there

[tamilgangster]

We can only speculate which language was orginally spoken by L carriers but if i am not wrong L is also quite frequent among Kalash and Burusho in the Hindukush. Even in Tajikistan not few have it but i dont know if Dravidians had any presence there. The origin of Dravidians is very mysterious and some assume that they orginated once in Balutschistan, where L peaks today. But the association of proto-dravidians with any haplogroup is speculative as long as there are no ancient samples tested there

True its speculative, but it has as much validity as saying that haplogroup R is associated with indoeuropeans. Associating linguistic groups with haplgroups has a logical fallacy.

[Rukha]

We can only speculate which language was orginally spoken by L carriers but if i am not wrong L is also quite frequent among Kalash and Burusho in the Hindukush. Even in Tajikistan not few have it but i dont know if Dravidians had any presence there. The origin of Dravidians is very mysterious and some assume that they orginated once in Balutschistan, where L peaks today. But the association of proto-dravidians with any haplogroup is speculative as long as there are no ancient samples tested there

Could L be connected to migration from the BMAC region into Balochistan and South Asia?


Some scholars have suggested that the characteristically BMAC artifacts found at burials in Mehrgarh and Baluchistan are explained by a movement of peoples from Central Asia to the south.[125]


Jarrige and Hassan argue instead that the BMAC artifacts are explained "within the framework of fruitful intercourse" by "a wide distribution of common beliefs and ritual practices" and "the economic dynamism of the area extending from South-Central Asia to the Indus Valley."[126]

According to Bryant, the exclusively Central Asian BMAC material inventory of the Mehrgarh and Baluchistan burials is "evidence of an archaeological intrusion into the subcontinent from Central Asia during the commonly accepted time frame for the arrival of the Indo-Aryans".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory#Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex_.28BMAC.29


http://s3.postimg.org/qp8k9obsi/bmac_1.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/us2yrzyb9/BMAC_2.png


http://s3.postimg.org/weostzhyq/BMAC_3.jpg


Fredrik T. Hibert, "South Asia from a Central Asian Perspective." The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, edited by George Erdosy

http://books.google.com/books?id=A6ZRShEIFwMC&q=bmac#v=onepage&q&f=false

[newtoboard]

Could L be connected to migration from the BMAC region into Balochistan and South Asia?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory#Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex_.28BMAC.29


http://s3.postimg.org/qp8k9obsi/bmac_1.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/us2yrzyb9/BMAC_2.png


http://s3.postimg.org/weostzhyq/BMAC_3.jpg


Fredrik T. Hibert, "South Asia from a Central Asian Perspective." The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, edited by George Erdosy

http://books.google.com/books?id=A6ZRShEIFwMC&q=bmac#v=onepage&q&f=false

Doubt it. The distribution of L in South Asia looks very western as opposed to northern.

[vettor]

Could L be connected to migration from the BMAC region into Balochistan and South Asia?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory#Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex_.28BMAC.29


http://s3.postimg.org/qp8k9obsi/bmac_1.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/us2yrzyb9/BMAC_2.png


http://s3.postimg.org/weostzhyq/BMAC_3.jpg


Fredrik T. Hibert, "South Asia from a Central Asian Perspective." The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, edited by George Erdosy

http://books.google.com/books?id=A6ZRShEIFwMC&q=bmac#v=onepage&q&f=false

i tend to agree with you

[Caspian]

Igor Rozhansky created a phylogenetic tree of L-M27 after my request. 67 str-markers was used in the FTDNA database.

http://i.imgur.com/z37OJ0w.jpg

[pegasus]

Whats makes me assume thats its the original dravidians is that the areas its peaks in are around the indus valley and in the south. Also judging from the face it is also found around the persian gulf area, I think this haplogroup might have basal eurasian affinities related to SW asian type ENF

Proto Dravidian speakers would be associated with Neolithic Farmers , the Baloch/Brahui kind of ENF . The bedouin like ENF is more archaic.
Its also very speculative to associate L with Dravidians ,there are lot of grey areas.

[tamilgangster]

Could L be connected to migration from the BMAC region into Balochistan and South Asia?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory#Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex_.28BMAC.29


http://s3.postimg.org/qp8k9obsi/bmac_1.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/us2yrzyb9/BMAC_2.png


http://s3.postimg.org/weostzhyq/BMAC_3.jpg


Fredrik T. Hibert, "South Asia from a Central Asian Perspective." The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, edited by George Erdosy

http://books.google.com/books?id=A6ZRShEIFwMC&q=bmac#v=onepage&q&f=false

No, there is no way it is related to indoaryans or BMAC due to the fact it peaks in Southern India. THe fact the artifacts from BMAC are found in megharh and central asian tombs are indicator the BMAC and megarh had contact with eachother.

[tamilgangster]

Proto Dravidian speakers would be associated with Neolithic Farmers , the Baloch/Brahui kind of ENF . The bedouin like ENF is more archaic.
Its also very speculative to associate L with Dravidians ,there are lot of grey areas.

Its hard to say who the protodravidians were, and associating haplogroups with language groups is speculative at best. I also doubt there are any affinities to basal eurasian populations. But its distribution looks to specific to areas associated with having/had dravidians to just be a coincidence.

[pegasus]

Its hard to say who the protodravidians were, and associating haplogroups with language groups is speculative at best. I also doubt there are any affinities to basal eurasian populations. But its distribution looks to specific to areas associated with having/had dravidians to just be a coincidence.

Well most evidence points to proto Dravidians being related to Neolithic Farmers, and their languages displaced the Austroasiatic / Munda languages which dominated peninsular India.
Similar in the way Indo Aryan languages displaced Dravidian languages in Northern India. While others say its an Autochthonous origin .

Yes thats true the fact that it (L) occurs in such a high amount among even tribals in Southern India, points to a far more archaic origin.

[tamilgangster]

Well most evidence points to proto Dravidians being related to Neolithic Farmers, and their languages displaced the Austroasiatic / Munda languages which dominated peninsular India.
Similar in the way Indo Aryan languages displaced Dravidian languages in Northern India. While others say its an Autochthonous origin .

Yes thats true the fact that it (L) occurs in such a high amount among even tribals in Southern India, points to a far more archaic origin.

What makes me suspect that it is the dravidian haplogroup and not tribal related is the fact it is not found among central or eastern Indian populations. Y chromosome DNA is only a small percentage of the DNA and are an indicator a paternal lineage. It is very possible that dravidians mixed a bit with the tribal populations. Which south Indian tribals are you talking about too?

[pegasus]

What makes me suspect that it is the dravidian haplogroup and not tribal related is the fact it is not found among central or eastern Indian populations. Y chromosome DNA is only a small percentage of the DNA and are an indicator a paternal lineage. It is very possible that dravidians mixed a bit with the tribal populations. Which south Indian tribals are you talking about too?

I am not talking about Gonds and Austroasiatic groups in Central and Eastern India.

Yes ofcourse the Dravidian admixed with locals. I was talking about groups like the Vellama or Paniya.

[jesus]

Y-DNA L1a from Northern Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan.

http://i.imgur.com/6eVQhAC.png
http://i.imgur.com/qX5Sn6w.png

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076748#s6

[BMG]

Yes thats true the fact that it (L) occurs in such a high amount among even tribals in Southern India, points to a far more archaic origin.
L does not have high frequencies among tribals

[AppS]

Igor Rozhansky created a phylogenetic tree of L-M27 after my request. 67 str-markers was used in the FTDNA database.
for example, N92407 has only 37-m

[AppS]

map of "European L" (2014)

http://i.piccy.info/i9/199575327a04d339fadb1f210355e98a/1407571570/180299/710986/LEurope.jpg

[DMXX]

Very interesting... Quite surprised to see all the L1a-M27 in Central-Western Europe. Any information on STR haplotypes?

[vettor]

map of "European L" (2014)

http://i.piccy.info/i9/199575327a04d339fadb1f210355e98a/1407571570/180299/710986/LEurope.jpg

same period for T

since T and L where once in union .then !!!!

the south Caucasus looks interesting

purple then pink are closest to me

only 67 or more markers shown

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/m272decifer_zpsbe5a1921.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/m272decifer_zpsbe5a1921.jpg.html)

[Arame]

I have a question about Turks from Afshar village.
To what branch of L they belong?

[Anabasis]

I have a question about Turks from Afshar village.
To what branch of L they belong?

Their STR markers looks like Pontic Cluster of L1b. (in ysearch) And TMRCa between them is very low. I guess that they dont have Turkic descent.

[bmoney]

Could L be connected to migration from the BMAC region into Balochistan and South Asia?

L is definitely IVC/Baluchistan, not Indo-Aryan R1a1/R2. My theory is that L is the original Dravidian haplogroup brought from the Elam region of Iran, possibly along with J, which has persisted in higher caste Dravidians in south India who brought on the y-dna mediated language transfer from the unrecorded/isolate original Veddoid/South Indian language.

Then r1a and r2 also performed the same y-dna domination to bring over Indo-Aryan/Yamnaya languages paternally. R1a and r2 are more successful in India than the Elamite haplogroup L in terms of propagation.

Even non-Aryan south Indian tribals such as the Chenchus have high levels of R1a, suggesting that it was very successful in the subcontinent. It also moots the point that L is tribal, since L and R1a are both found in south Indian tribals. Though since L has been in the subcontinent for longer, it is more widespread.

L is in no way shape or form able to be traced back to the original Australoid/Veddoid population. It is highly distributed along the West Coast of India which traces the IVC to Inamgaon settlement path of the Elamites.

Your Tajik father was related to the original Elamite settlers of the IVC/Makran coast, as I'm sure many Kalash Burusho Nuristanis and Pashtuns are as well in addition to the Baloch/Brahui, so has nothing to do with south Indian tribals.

Im sure Punjab/Gujarat/Pashtunistan was a strong area for L as well, but since it was directly in the path of the r1a invaders, r1a came out on top

[Afshar]

Their STR markers looks like Pontic Cluster of L1b. (in ysearch) And TMRCa between them is very low. I guess that they dont have Turkic descent.

Can you send me those str profiles?

[Anabasis]

Can you send me those str profiles?

UUFVY
498DG

[Afshar]

UUFVY
498DG

Yes you are right, they match pontic people mostly. Can we confirm this sample is genuinely from the paper?

[Anabasis]

Yes you are right, they match pontic people mostly. Can we confirm this sample is genuinely from the paper?

I cant. I dont know who upload those results into ysearch.

[Afshar]

I cant. I dont know who upload those results into ysearch.
I suspect the author has labeled them incorrectly as afshar, they might be settlers from the pontic region.

[Anabasis]

I suspect the author has labeled them incorrectly as afshar, they might be settlers from the pontic region.

yep you might be right.

[Amal]

Thanks for the info.
I am looking as well for the region of L1a!

Hopfuly we will find the answer!

🌷

[bmoney]

Thanks for the info.
I am looking as well for the region of L1a!

Hopfuly we will find the answer!



Welcome to the forum, I created a thread consolidating all research on L-M20 focussing on L1: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12602-Master-L1-thread

From research L1a peaks in the Baluch of Pakistan - but there is a lot of research where L subclades were not tested so cannot know for sure where it peaks in modern pops

Areni-1 man from Armenia is the earliest L1a found so far

What ethnic group do you belong to?

[Fried]

A very interesting ancient result - L1-M22 (xL1a,L1b) found in the Central Asia of the Kushan Empire period. https://www.theytree.com/tree/L
Sample name L8620
AU number AU45164
Sample Type Ancient
Reference assembly CP086569.2 / T2T CHM13 v2.0
Y-haplogroup L-M22
MT-haplogroup T2g1
Gender Male
Quality T2T
Coverage: 0.83％
Average Depth: 2
Country Uzbekistan
Data source
青铜时代祖先的遗传连续性与铁器时代晚期乌兹别克斯坦草原相关祖先的增加 中国科学院古脊椎动物与古人类研究所 (Kumar et al.,2021. "Genetic Continuity of Bronze Age Ancestry with Increased Steppe-Related Ancestry in Late Iron Age Uzbekistan") (https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/11/4908/6329832)

Looks like the basal L1-M22 was distributed among the Indo-Aryan peoples in antiquity.

[Arlus]

A very interesting ancient result - L1-M22 (xL1a,L1b) found in the Central Asia of the Kushan Empire period. https://www.theytree.com/tree/L
Sample name L8620
AU number AU45164
Sample Type Ancient
Reference assembly CP086569.2 / T2T CHM13 v2.0
Y-haplogroup L-M22
MT-haplogroup T2g1
Gender Male
Quality T2T
Coverage: 0.83％
Average Depth: 2
Country Uzbekistan
Data source
青铜时代祖先的遗传连续性与铁器时代晚期乌兹别克斯坦草原相关祖先的增加 中国科学院古脊椎动物与古人类研究所 (Kumar et al.,2021. "Genetic Continuity of Bronze Age Ancestry with Increased Steppe-Related Ancestry in Late Iron Age Uzbekistan") (https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/11/4908/6329832)

Looks like the basal L1-M22 was distributed among the Indo-Aryan peoples in antiquity.

*delete post*

[Fried]

*delete post*

I suppose this sample can be incorrectly read by the TheYTree, too.

[Arlus]

I suppose this sample can be incorrectly read by the TheYTree, too.
WGS extract was able to verify SNPs at pre L1/L2 level only (L*). Someone who knows to verify SNP reads from BAM files may confirm if the sample is positive for L1 SNPs. Otherwise I think that this too is a low coverage sample and AFAIK they haven't mentioned his y hg in the paper.

[Yamdut]

Haplogroup L1a seems to be from last neolithic waves, earlier neolithic waves were dominated by J2 and R2. However, L1a1 spread earlier in subcontinent as it peaks in Southern Karnataka agrerian dominant caste Okkaliggas while Gujjars of Rajasthan are also L1a1 with high west euresian mt-dna. L1a2 is found among Brokpa and some heavily Indo-Aryan Steppe communities like Kalash, Ror, Sarswat and Jats.