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GoldenHind
08-30-2014, 07:03 PM
There is someone in the P312 Project (Welsh or English surname, early colonial American ancestry) who has just tested DF100+. I was under the impression, perhaps erroneously, that DF100 was parallel to P312, yet this person has tested positive for both of them. FTDNA classifies him as CTS4528, for which he has also tested positive. FTDNA lists that SNP as parallel to P312. On checking ISPGG, they list CTS4528 as an R1b SNP under investigation, and I couldn't find DF100 listed at all.

So are we dealing with an erroneous P312+ result here, or are DF100 and CTS4528 both beneath P312. If the latter is the case, those who are currently P312** have two new SNPs to test.

Does anyone have any more information about the position of DF100?

jdean
08-30-2014, 07:47 PM
Sounds like a mix up with one of the tests, the DF100-CTS4528 project has an example of DF100+, P312- and P312+, DF100-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311/default.aspx?section=ysnp

GoldenHind
08-31-2014, 05:27 PM
Sounds like a mix up with one of the tests, the DF100-CTS4528 project has an example of DF100+, P312- and P312+, DF100-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Thanks very much. I looked for a DF100 project at FTDNA but couldn't find it, probably because it is listed under D rather than R in the Y Haplogroup project list. I think the most likely explanation is an erroneous P312+ result. Now the question is how does one get FTDNA to run it again? Has anyone has success in convincing FTDNA to rerun suspect test results?

jdean
08-31-2014, 05:57 PM
Thanks very much. I looked for a DF100 project at FTDNA but couldn't find it, probably because it is listed under D rather than R in the Y Haplogroup project list. I think the most likely explanation is an erroneous P312+ result. Now the question is how does one get FTDNA to run it again? Has anyone has success in convincing FTDNA to rerun suspect test results?

Managed to get FTDNA to retest somebody who was a dead ringer for M222 but reported P312-. After about 3 months pestering they reviewed his P312 status and agreed he was P312+ but still insisted he was M222-, ho hum.

GoldenHind
09-02-2014, 05:44 PM
I have been informed by the individual in question that while the FTDNA lab director has said his P312+ result was 'clear and unambiguous,' they have agreed to rerun it.

Someone else suggested to him that the explanation may be that DF100 and CTS4528 are unstable. This seems unlikely to me as it looks to me like all those in the DF100 project who are positive for those two SNPs are P312-.

VinceT
09-02-2014, 06:06 PM
My own P312+ and L61+ results were also asserted to be correct and unambiguous, back in the day. They probably were, for the sample they actually belonged to. My own fresh samples provided for FMS and WTY testing indicated otherwise.

VinceT
09-03-2014, 02:16 AM
Does anyone have any more information about the position of DF100?

As near as I can tell, it goes something like this:

5007935 C->A FGC796/Y101
6046194 G->A PF6415
6604911 A->G PF5856
9084870 G->T PF6540/YSC0000082
14641193 C->T L52/PF6541
16492547 C->T L151/PF6542
16751825 G->A PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191
17589518 C->T CTS7650/FGC44/PF6544
17697807 T->C PF6538
17844018 T->C L11/PF6539/S127
18907236 A->C P310/PF6546/S129
19418178 T->C CTS10353/S1175/YSC0001249

[branch here to P311, PF6714 per https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx]

18248698 A->G P311/PF6545/S128

[branch here to P312, U106 and S1194; order of SNPs per https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx ]

14668524 A->G S1194
15697457 T->C CTS4528/S1200
13647616 C->A S14328
14946383 G->A S1196
16775613 C->T DF100/S1203

GoldenHind
09-08-2014, 03:52 PM
The individual in question tells me his P312 test has been rerun by FTDNA, and he is in fact negative. Thus the mystery is now solved.

jdean
09-08-2014, 04:08 PM
Good news on two fronts, firstly of course that this has been cleared up but also that FTDNA reacted so quickly, hats off !!

ballardgen
09-11-2014, 06:54 PM
Good news on two fronts, firstly of course that this has been cleared up but also that FTDNA reacted so quickly, hats off !!


I contacted Janine at FTDNA and explained that my data suggests that the P312+ in the William's sample was incorrect so she agreed to re run the test and I can confirm it came back P312-ve Negative

So Williams is confirmed DF100/CTS4528 (neg U106 & P312)


Adrian Ballard
DF100/CTS4528 Private Project Manager
https://www.facebook.com/groups/r1b1a1a1a1c/
https://sites.google.com/site/cts4528/

ballardgen
10-10-2014, 10:29 AM
I contacted Janine at FTDNA and explained that my data suggests that the P312+ in the William's sample was incorrect so she agreed to re run the test and I can confirm it came back P312-ve Negative

So Williams is confirmed DF100/CTS4528 (neg U106 & P312)


Just a thought.

Having now resolved this issue I do wonder that those in the past who had returned a positive for P312 from about the time Williams did (about 8 years ago) and now find themselves in a position where they can find no downstream subclades of P312, that they may want to re test P312 as it was indeed not reliable back then.

We may have in fact P312* who are not P312 and should be pursuing a new line of testing.

GoldenHind
10-10-2014, 06:12 PM
Just a thought.

Having now resolved this issue I do wonder that those in the past who had returned a positive for P312 from about the time Williams did (about 8 years ago) and now find themselves in a position where they can find no downstream subclades of P312, that they may want to re test P312 as it was indeed not reliable back then.

We may have in fact P312* who are not P312 and should be pursuing a new line of testing.

I believe there are 19 people in the P312 project who have tested negative for every currently known SNP directly below P312 and are classified as P312**. Most of them have Welsh or Scottish ancestry. While I wouldn't rule out an isolated error on a P312+ result in this group, I think it is much more likely they are part of a subclade (or two) which hasn't yet been identified. In any case, I seriously doubt FTDNA would be willing to re-test them all, or that they would be willing to order DF100 to double check the possibility of an erroneous result.

PS. Nice helmet.

ballardgen
10-10-2014, 10:54 PM
I believe there are 19 people in the P312 project who have tested negative for every currently known SNP directly below P312 and are classified as P312**. Most of them have Welsh or Scottish ancestry. While I wouldn't rule out an isolated error on a P312+ result in this group, I think it is much more likely they are part of a subclade (or two) which hasn't yet been identified. In any case, I seriously doubt FTDNA would be willing to re-test them all, or that they would be willing to order DF100 to double check the possibility of an erroneous result.

PS. Nice helmet.

Welsh and Scots are the areas early DF100's name history seem to be linked with, Janine form FTDNA did say that each case would be considered on its merits, so some could consider an approach if they suspected an error.

VinceT
10-11-2014, 12:09 PM
At least two or three of those need to test Big Y, or preferably - Y-Elite with Full Genomes Corp.!

ballardgen
10-18-2014, 10:48 AM
I contacted Janine at FTDNA and explained that my data suggests that the P312+ in the William's sample was incorrect so she agreed to re run the test and I can confirm it came back P312-ve Negative

So Williams is confirmed DF100/CTS4528 (neg U106 & P312)


Adrian Ballard
DF100/CTS4528 Private Project Manager
https://www.facebook.com/groups/r1b1a1a1a1c/
https://sites.google.com/site/cts4528/

The cousin of Williams - N4846
his cousin Williams - 138960 as also tested CTS4528+, DF100+, P312-

A useful adage to corroborate the first Williams Results :-)