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jeanL
09-07-2014, 02:36 PM
Just got my alleles back for DF27, and I am positive for it. B) Here are the alleles for which I am derived/positive

DF27 ChrY 21380200 21380200 A+
P312 ChrY 22157311 22157311 A+

Then there is S250, which is in the same position as DF27, so it's just another name for it. Now, knowing I am of Basque descent, and I'm not R1b-M153, R1b-M65, or R1b-SRY2627, what should the next step in terms of testing be?

razyn
09-07-2014, 02:41 PM
DF81 appears to be another Basque subclade of DF27, might try that one. If you have any Y-DNA tests at FTDNA, and haven't joined the DF27 project, do so -- then you can see who else looks most like you in the STR patterns (especially off-modal values). There's also a Yahoo group to discuss DF27, that one isn't a function of being an FTDNA customer. I don't know your actual name, kit number &c. so I may be preaching to the choir, for all I know.

jeanL
09-07-2014, 02:46 PM
I haven't tested with FTDNA, I've only tested with 23andme, and now did this SNP testing with yseq!

razyn
09-07-2014, 02:57 PM
Well this thread tells you more about DF81 than my previous post: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1089-DF81-%28DF27-gt-DF81%29

People join the DF27 Yahoo group (subject to approval by a moderator) from a link in topic #5 at this (public) FTDNA group: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx

MikeWww is moderator of that Yahoo group, and he posts here, so maybe he can just invite you in, or whatever. It's unclear to me how that is supposed to work. But there is quite a bit of traffic on the Yahoo group -- what with all the NextGen testing (at FTDNA and elsewhere), and a couple of chip tests that harvest a lot of data but don't talk to each other about it.

ArmandoR1b
09-08-2014, 10:49 AM
My paternal line is from the Basque country and I am not DF81 or M153 or SRY2627 but I am Z196 and several markers below it. There are other people with a paternal line from the Basque country that are in the same situation. Since Z196,Z195 is such a large group I believe that he should test for one of those markers. DF81 is probably very rare even in the Basque country. Since Basque people have migrated to territories outside of País Vasco their DNA should be found in other territories such as the case with Tello who is DF81 yet very few people have the same STR markers to even suggest they are DF81. At least 10% of migration to Latin America was from the Basque Country and therefore DF81 should be found among them also but it is extremely rare everywhere. M153 is an example of a Basque marker found outside of the Basque Country including Latin America. Also consider that the Basque subclades of DF81 and M153 are descendants of DF27 and they didn't just show up by themselves. For example, SRY2627 is a descendant of L176.2 and L176.2 is found in the Basque country as well as SRY2627 and very likely many other subclades of DF27 and Z196. I also have extreme doubts that the large number of P312(xSRY267,M153,L21,U152) in the Martínez et al study in the XLS Table S3 at http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/04/06/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1 would be very high in DF81 if they had tested for it. That is why I think he should test for Z196.

Z196 can be ordered from Yseq at http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4476

jeanL
09-09-2014, 01:35 AM
My paternal line is from the Basque country and I am not DF81 or M153 or SRY2627 but I am Z196 and several markers below it. There are other people with a paternal line from the Basque country that are in the same situation. Since Z196,Z195 is such a large group I believe that he should test for one of those markers. DF81 is probably very rare even in the Basque country. Since Basque people have migrated to territories outside of País Vasco their DNA should be found in other territories such as the case with Tello who is DF81 yet very few people have the same STR markers to even suggest they are DF81. At least 10% of migration to Latin America was from the Basque Country and therefore DF81 should be found among them also but it is extremely rare everywhere. M153 is an example of a Basque marker found outside of the Basque Country including Latin America. Also consider that the Basque subclades of DF81 and M153 are descendants of DF27 and they didn't just show up by themselves. For example, SRY2627 is a descendant of L176.2 and L176.2 is found in the Basque country as well as SRY2627 and very likely many other subclades of DF27 and Z196. I also have extreme doubts that the large number of P312(xSRY267,M153,L21,U152) in the Martínez et al study in the XLS Table S3 at http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/04/06/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1 would be very high in DF81 if they had tested for it. That is why I think he should test for Z196.

Z196 can be ordered from Yseq at http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4476

Where is your lineage from? My Great-Grandfather's Dad was from Vizcaya, but the lineage is actually from the Western side of Guipuzcoa.

ArmandoR1b
09-09-2014, 12:30 PM
My lineage is from western Vizcaya. A lot of my distant relatives through that same line now live places such as Bilbao and in Álava.

ADW_1981
09-12-2014, 07:43 PM
Just got my alleles back for DF27, and I am positive for it. B) Here are the alleles for which I am derived/positive

DF27 ChrY 21380200 21380200 A+
P312 ChrY 22157311 22157311 A+

Then there is S250, which is in the same position as DF27, so it's just another name for it. Now, knowing I am of Basque descent, and I'm not R1b-M153, R1b-M65, or R1b-SRY2627, what should the next step in terms of testing be?

Z196 and then Z220 if you were positive for the former.

ArmandoR1b
09-13-2014, 02:23 AM
Z198 if negative for Z220.

http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4477

jeanL
06-24-2015, 06:44 PM
I just got my results for Z296, I am Z296 derived.

Z296 ChrY 9013031 9013031 A+

So should I do Z295 as the next step? Or should I do DF17. I'm thinking Z295 given my paternal Basque ancestry.

Dave Seaney
03-17-2016, 12:52 PM
I have been testing with YSEQ and am DF27 also. They have now gone deeper and I am on the Z295 line. I am not Z216 or CTS4065/Z2355. I am waiting to find out if I am S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 or FGC13557. My question is...When I determine this week which one I am what exactly is this going to tell me? The origin of my name (Seaney) has always been a mystery. It may have derived from Le Seney which is French and would make sense with my DNA. But according to family stories they left Wale in the late 1600s for America. Since DF27 if Ibero-Celtic were they in Wales/Great Britain for a long time? Am I connected with a Celtic group there? What should be my next step in my research?

gotten
03-17-2016, 01:37 PM
So you bought the DF27 pack?
So from http://www.yseq.net/images/trees/R1b-DF27_tree.pdf they are now testing the Green SNPs but you are at least Z296+ Z216- CTS4065- DF17-?

Dave Seaney
03-17-2016, 05:45 PM
Yes. But I have been searching for what does this really tell me.

lgmayka
03-18-2016, 12:45 AM
They have now gone deeper and I am on the Z295 line. I am not Z216 or CTS4065/Z2355. I am waiting to find out if I am S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 or FGC13557. My question is...When I determine this week which one I am what exactly is this going to tell me?
Here is YFull's haplotree for R-Z295 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z295/). Z295 is 3900 years old, so in itself it does not give you recent history. You need to drill down farther.

Dave Seaney
03-18-2016, 01:17 AM
But where can I find family groups I am connected to? Or locations? I had a 43 marker test done with Sorenson and I match most Irish groups about 80% But I've never found any matches anywhere that comes within 100 generations of me. Am I that rare?

thetick
03-18-2016, 01:40 AM
But where can I find family groups I am connected to? Or locations? I had a 43 marker test done with Sorenson and I match most Irish groups about 80% But I've never found any matches anywhere that comes within 100 generations of me. Am I that rare?

You are not necessarily rare just not drilled down enough. Z295 is estimated 3900 years ago so look at the different flags under Z295 (all across Europe -- North American flags are likely from Spain/Portugal)! You are in there somewhere minus z216 and CTS4065. You may want an FGC or Big Y test to see who you are your closest matches and if you and your closest match form a new group. You will likely have more closer matches with the Big Y test as those below are the ones who posted their results publicly to the ytree website for everyone to share and discover new groups.

http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=631

You are almost surely in one of these groups:

1) Klaasen N16822
Corbin 130376

2) Blades N44347
Carter 348762

3) Winters 81973

4) Larkin 208384

ArmandoR1b
03-18-2016, 02:42 AM
I have been testing with YSEQ and am DF27 also. They have now gone deeper and I am on the Z295 line. I am not Z216 or CTS4065/Z2355. I am waiting to find out if I am S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 or FGC13557. My question is...When I determine this week which one I am what exactly is this going to tell me? The origin of my name (Seaney) has always been a mystery. It may have derived from Le Seney which is French and would make sense with my DNA. But according to family stories they left Wale in the late 1600s for America. Since DF27 if Ibero-Celtic were they in Wales/Great Britain for a long time? Am I connected with a Celtic group there? What should be my next step in my research?

It looks like two posters took your statement to mean that you have tested positive for Z295. If that is the case then you should be negative for S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 and FGC13557. That would mean that the only way you can find your subclade is to get a BigY or FGC test.

If you still haven't tested positive or negative for Z295 then you need to wait for the results before trying to have your results analyzed. If you test negative for Z295 then you can be positive for S21184, CTS9050, or FGC23353. If positive for S21184 you could be positive for S19290 or FGC13557 but you can't be positive for either if negative for S21184.

Dave Seaney
03-18-2016, 01:05 PM
Yes, I am positive for Z295 but am not Z216 or CTS4065/Z2355. I am down the other branch to S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 or FGC13557. But I don't see those on the Big Y chart that was referenced. I compared my Sorensen DNA to people at the bottom of the chart and I'm close to a lot of them but no super close match. So where do I go for this Big Y test and how much? I'm already over $300 as it is.

gotten
03-18-2016, 01:12 PM
If you still haven't tested positive or negative for Z295 then you need to wait for the results before trying to have your results analyzed.

Agreed; I advice to wait until the second round of SNPs (Z209, Z295, S21184 [+FGC13557, S19290], CTS9050, FGC23353) has completed testing before making conclusions and deciding the next step.

Note that Z295 is not the same as Z296.

ArmandoR1b
03-18-2016, 01:26 PM
Yes, I am positive for Z295 but am not Z216 or CTS4065/Z2355. I am down the other branch to S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 or FGC13557.
You are negative for S21184, CTS9050, FGC23353, S19290 and FGC13557. The only reason to look for those in the BigY chart is to see which surnames you aren't matching up to now. Since all of those SNPs are older than surnames don't be surprised if you find you do have a match with one of those surnames in a different branch later on.


But I don't see those on the Big Y chart that was referenced.
What makes it easier for me to find a branch is to go to http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php then do a CTRL-F of the SNP then right-click the corresponding SNP in blue that's on the same row to open a new tab or window. That way I can still have the index up in order to search another SNP.


I compared my Sorensen DNA to people at the bottom of the chart and I'm close to a lot of them but no super close match. So where do I go for this Big Y test and how much? I'm already over $300 as it is.The BigY is at FTDNA. You have to get a 12 marker test from FTDNA unless you call them and request them to allow a BigY test without the STR test. Or you can get a Full Genomes test. You have no other choices if you want to the possibility to find a more recent SNP. Since you are not a close match in STR markers the SNP matches still aren't likely going to be from a genealogical time period. Many of us are in a similar boat as you. So you have a choice of waiting until a close STR match shows up or spending another large amount on BigY or FGC. During sales the BigY test goes down in price and many times coupons are available to reduce the cost even more.

lgmayka
03-18-2016, 02:16 PM
But I don't see those on the Big Y chart that was referenced.
Different haplotrees have made different labeling choices. For YFull's haplotree, try this search page (http://yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/). It will tell you the label that YFull gives to the tree level containing a given SNP.

ArmandoR1b
03-18-2016, 03:04 PM
Different haplotrees have made different labeling choices. For YFull's haplotree, try this search page (http://yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/). It will tell you the label that YFull gives to the tree level containing a given SNP.

Those specific SNPs are found in both sites and it is not an issue of labeling choices. What he was doing wrong is looking for them in the Z95 tree at http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=631 when he needed to look for them in the S450 block at http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=629 which also has Z209/S230 as phylogenetically equivalent or he needed to use CTRL-F at http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php as I had explained above.

Dave Seaney
03-19-2016, 02:01 PM
After taking a really close look at the Big Y material I see now what you are saying. I should have my final answer from YSEQ in a couple days and know which one I am associated with. Thanks for the infomation. This group has been very helpful.

Dave Seaney
03-23-2016, 02:18 AM
I am now done to FGC23353 (FGC23342) and CTS9050 on the Z295 branch.

ArmandoR1b
03-23-2016, 12:10 PM
I am now done to FGC23353 (FGC23342) and CTS9050 on the Z295 branch.

Done or down? FGC23353 (FGC23342) and CTS9050 are not on the Z295 branch. If you are positive for Z295 you are negative for FGC23353 (FGC23342) and CTS9050.

gotten
03-23-2016, 01:22 PM
I am now done to FGC23353 (FGC23342) and CTS9050 on the Z295 branch.

Is it possible to share a screenshot or copypaste of the YSEQ Results page?

Dave Seaney
03-23-2016, 01:47 PM
I see that I misread the YSEQ chart. I was positive for Z296, negative for DF17, positive for Z295, negative for S21194, negative for Z216 and CTS4065. So why don't I branch off of Z295 down the Z216 or CTS4065? Is Z295 a branch of it's own? Thanks in advance for any replies, I'm still learning every day. I've been chasing my family history for over 40 years and any clues are helpful.

ArmandoR1b
03-23-2016, 02:05 PM
I see that I misread the YSEQ chart. I was positive for Z296, negative for DF17, positive for Z295, negative for S21194, negative for Z216 and CTS4065. So why don't I branch off of Z295 down the Z216 or CTS4065? Is Z295 a branch of it's own. Thanks in advance for any replies, I'm still learning every day. I've been chasing my family history for over 40 years and any clues are helpful.

You don't branch off Z295 down the Z216 or CTS4065 branches because you are negative for Z216 and CTS4065. If you want to find your branch you need a BigY or FGC test.

Webb
03-23-2016, 05:46 PM
I see that I misread the YSEQ chart. I was positive for Z296, negative for DF17, positive for Z295, negative for S21194, negative for Z216 and CTS4065. So why don't I branch off of Z295 down the Z216 or CTS4065? Is Z295 a branch of it's own? Thanks in advance for any replies, I'm still learning every day. I've been chasing my family history for over 40 years and any clues are helpful.

You could try the stand alone test for Z270. It is often times listed as equivalent to Z216, but is actually just above Z216 and just below Z295. If you check out FTDNA's DF27 project results, you will see it listed as a separate snp. There are three kits who are Z270+ and either Z216- or untested. I know for a fact Vanderhoeven tested Z216- and Z270+. There is also A8344, however, I do believe there is no stand alone test for this marker. You could use Yseq to test Z270 and report the results to Dick Hulan if you are positive. I believe this would be the most logical plan.

Dave Seaney
03-25-2016, 03:58 AM
Testing next for A8344 and S1220.

Webb
03-25-2016, 02:21 PM
Testing next for A8344 and S1220.

According to Yfull's site S1220 is currently equivalent to CTS4065. So if you tested negative for CTS4065, then you will most likely test negative for S1220. If this test does indeed come back negative, then I would really recommend you testing Z270, as there is at least one case of someone being Z270+ and Z216-. If Z270+ and Z216-, or A8244+, then I agree with Armando that a full genome test such as BigY would be really important. Z270* is really uncharted water at this point.

A.D.
03-27-2016, 04:14 PM
I did Geno2+ and it was a bit of a mess. Dick Hulan sorted it out for me and reckoned I'm DF27 due to these Z195+ Z196- Z274+ Z268+ Z209+ Z210+ Z220+ Z215-
Z295- Z270+ I haven't tested for Z216. My Haplogroup is under review at FTDNA. I've got a lot of M222 markers (and U152 even a couple of U106) so there's plenty of false positives but which ones? I'm saving for STR 111 and hope that will give me a better matches. I see Dick Hulan is mentioning false positives for Z270 on another thread. I think Geno2+ covers a lot in the package mt and autosomal but I'm not happy with the results. If I had to choose again I think the best bet is either 67 or 111 STR and Big Y but thats really expensive.

Webb
03-28-2016, 01:30 PM
I have to retract a statement. YFull has S1220 at the same location as CTS4065. However, Williamson's Ytree has it just above CTS4065. Also, I believe that if one is Z270+, then they are ancestral for Z295.

ArmandoR1b
03-28-2016, 04:52 PM
I did Geno2+ and it was a bit of a mess. Dick Hulan sorted it out for me and reckoned I'm DF27 due to these Z195+ Z196- Z274+ Z268+ Z209+ Z210+ Z220+ Z215-
Z295- Z270+ I haven't tested for Z216. My Haplogroup is under review at FTDNA. I've got a lot of M222 markers (and U152 even a couple of U106) so there's plenty of false positives but which ones? I'm saving for STR 111 and hope that will give me a better matches. I see Dick Hulan is mentioning false positives for Z270 on another thread. I think Geno2+ covers a lot in the package mt and autosomal but I'm not happy with the results. If I had to choose again I think the best bet is either 67 or 111 STR and Big Y but thats really expensive.

Geno2+ does not test Z196. If you are positive for Z196 then you are positive for Z195. Geno2+ does not test Z210 but since you are positive for Z209 and Z220 then you can assume to be Z209+. If you really are Z295- then Z270 is a false positive. So you are stuck in the group above Z295 at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=629 until you get more SNP testing.

A.D.
03-29-2016, 01:05 AM
I copied the results from FTDNA haplotree checked with the 'SNP tested' list. I made a mistake I'm Z210 negative on the haplotree but i think there's a discrepancy between it and some of the SNP lists I downloaded. I'm really starting to distrust the whole results. Could the family finder results be wrong? My kit numbers were changed so do I even have the right kit? I really don't know.

Saetro
03-29-2016, 02:01 AM
Very recently I asked Geno2+ for a list of what SNPs they tested in this general area. They said they did not have one, and re-confirmed their answer when I checked that this was what they meant.
ArmandoR1b, where did you find a list of the SNPs they test?

ArmandoR1b
03-29-2016, 02:13 AM
Very recently I asked Geno2+ for a list of what SNPs they tested in this general area. They said they did not have one, and re-confirmed their answer when I checked that this was what they meant.
ArmandoR1b, where did you find a list of the SNPs they test?
You have to do a transfer to FTDNA and there has to be a Genographic 2+ in your order history at FTDNA and there has to be a section on your main page https://www.familytreedna.com/my/default.aspx that says Genographic Transfer and there has to be a link that says Download Y-DNA SNPs as CSV just as it is in the following screenshot -
8460

If you don't see any of that then there was a problem with the transfer or they changed the process.

If you download from https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree you won't get all of the SNPs that were tested by Geno2+.

Webb
03-29-2016, 02:05 PM
If you are wanting to dabble, and want an overall light analysis of your dna, then Genographic might be the way to go. However, I think most people start off this way and then want more. I think FTDNA's snp packs are a very good alternative to full sequencing. I also think that if you take advantage of an snp pack, then using YFull's tree and Williamson's tree to research your results, you can come up with a good game plan for additional testing.

razyn
03-29-2016, 05:09 PM
One little problem that recurs often is that a person with no background in this gets results from one of the new SNP packs, and wants to know the source, prehistory, history, and present planetary distribution frequency of something -- say, BY3235. Which was discovered, like, last Thursday (relatively speaking); and basically we have scarcely a clue about that stuff, yet.

So I spend a good bit of time writing personal emails, forum posts, or responding within whatever medium or context the question was asked -- and saying pretty much the same thing, only using the name of a different (new) SNP. And if I try a shortcut, e.g. referring to my answer to essentially the same question (sometimes, asked by the same person) two days earlier, I'm "patronizing." Oh, my children: why are there so many of you?

And in that regard (how many there are), our next DF27 member will be number 1450. I've been saying for some time that it looks like about half of DF27 is Z195-, and idly wondered how true that might be. So I used the new enumeration system as a counter, and it looks as if we have almost exactly 1200 members sorted to the extent that I can tell whether they are Z195 or ZZ12. And the latter are, at the moment, 46.5% of the sorted 1200. There are also just about 250 who are Ungrouped, although we have several categories of ungrouped guys; some we are pretty sure are Z209+, Rox2 or whatever, but they haven't actually tested yet. And 40+ guys are invisible -- part of the 1450 count, but they have only Geno chip results (or otherwise bear a SNP that's below DF27, but have no STR data to display) and can't be grouped. They are in the SNP results, searchable but not grouped.

ArmandoR1b
03-29-2016, 10:47 PM
I copied the results from FTDNA haplotree checked with the 'SNP tested' list. I made a mistake I'm Z210 negative on the haplotree but i think there's a discrepancy between it and some of the SNP lists I downloaded. I'm really starting to distrust the whole results. Could the family finder results be wrong? My kit numbers were changed so do I even have the right kit? I really don't know.
I would get the Z209 SNP pack test on the non-Geno2+ kit and rely on those results.

Saetro
03-29-2016, 10:53 PM
Razyn, how can I help people in your position?
I have not yet come across anyone testing one of the new packs without any other testing, so first up, I will ask about my typical experience.
If someone has an initial indication from a limited STR or SNP test, apart from providing some info on their particular case, I encourage them to join a Portal Haplogroup DNA group on FTDNA and read everything that is there about the overall Haplogroup (and ISOGG and Wikipedia if relevant). The relevant portion of the Y-DNA tree is also something I show them.
The next step will probably be an SNP panel, but with the guidance of experts.
I would also do that if someone had just dived in and tested their entire Y genome (or most of it).
Although I would probably be able to recommend they also join the relevant next Portal group - L21, U106 and so on subsequently.
What would you like my response to them to be?
If I can reduce your load, even a little, I would like to do so.

Hunter7715
05-11-2016, 12:06 PM
Finally got my latest results back. I am Neg CTS3702/S1220 and Neg A8344. I appear to match on the Big Y to Winters FTDNA #81937

razyn
05-11-2016, 12:35 PM
Finally got my latest results back. I am Neg CTS3702/S1220 and Neg A8344. I appear to match on the Big Y to Winters FTDNA #81937
That could be pretty interesting, he's the only Z295 guy on the Big Tree who has no match yet. If you have a SNP in common below Z295+, it's a new subclade. But if you are Big Y tested I'm not sure what that has to do with YSEQ; and if you aren't, I don't think you can tell that you "match" Winters. (Who is btw 81973, you transposed the last two digits.) Anyway, sharing his lack of a match does not equal matching him -- though one can hope.

Hunter7715
05-11-2016, 07:36 PM
YSEQ said that CTS3702/S1220 and A8344 were the only ones left below Z295 they have at this time. Comparing Winters and mine DYS matches (out of 27 in common markers) we have 11 that match, 12 that are off by 1 repeat and 4 off by 2 repeats.
I was also negative for CTS4065, S19290 and S21184.