PDA

View Full Version : R1b-CTS9219



ADW_1981
09-11-2014, 08:02 PM
If the entire R1b Ossetian cluster is CTS9219+, and we are pretty confident that the Albanian/Greek 11-11 STR haplotype are also CTS9219+. Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?

brygian
09-11-2014, 08:27 PM
CTS9219 seems to be roughly 3500 years old. The Balkan cluster seems to be about 2500 years old. If this is true, then most probably the Balkan cluster originated during the Hellenistic period on the Balkans after an earlier spread of CTS9219 from Northern Caucasus through Europe. To me it is more interesting how come there are CTS9219+ Armenians. Maybe they moved from the Balkans into Asia Minor before the Balkan cluster was formed. The estimated migration of the Bryginas/Phrygians (which are thought to be the proto-Armenians) from the Balkans to Asia Minor is thought to have happened between 1200 and 800 BC which fits the above time frame.

These are very rough estimates of mine. Hopefully somebody can provide more accurate data.

Silesian
09-11-2014, 08:33 PM
If the entire R1b Ossetian cluster is CTS9219+, and we are pretty confident that the Albanian/Greek 11-11 STR haplotype are also CTS9219+. Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?

I don't know of Greek, but Armenians are of interest 1 has tested positive for upstream CTS-7822 with also possible CTS 9219
b3b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ should test CTS9219
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

ADW_1981
09-11-2014, 08:53 PM
CTS9219 seems to be roughly 3500 years old. The Balkan cluster seems to be about 2500 years old. If this is true, then most probably the Balkan cluster originated during the Hellenistic period on the Balkans after an earlier spread of CTS9219 from Northern Caucasus through Europe. To me it is more interesting how come there are CTS9219+ Armenians. Maybe they moved from the Balkans into Asia Minor before the Balkan cluster was formed. The estimated migration of the Bryginas/Phrygians (which are thought to be the proto-Armenians) from the Balkans to Asia Minor is thought to have happened between 1200 and 800 BC which fits the above time frame.

These are very rough estimates of mine. Hopefully somebody can provide more accurate data.

This would make sense since the Balkan cluster with 385ab = 11-11 signature is a subset of the CTS9219 branch.

The reason for the post is because there is some discussion and disagreement with how IE speakers arrived in Albania and Greece. It's not clear from what I understand, and it wasn't clear at all, if not entirely shoved under the rug when I read HWL a few years back. (it was dry so I probably forgot a lot of stuff)

ADW_1981
09-11-2014, 08:54 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults

6 of the 39 R1b Greeks are likely CTS9219, not to mention some others might be as well if they have the same Ossetian signature.

Are there any STR in particular, aside from the Balkan 11-11 signature that can predict CTS9219?

Joe B
09-11-2014, 09:11 PM
Wouldn't rule out that CTS9219 got it's start in the Balkins or Carpathian Mountains although Asia Minor does seem more likely. Whatever, because of the diffuse distribution in Europe, it's my gut feeling that these subclades of R1b-Z2103 entered the rest of Europe really late in the game. Maybe 500 to 600 years ago or so excluding the Jewish diaspora which likely carried R1b-L277 and L584 from the Middle East at a earlier time.

They have been using DYS446=14 to help identify CTS9219 and usually DYS449 is 30 or higher. Of course these guides may change as more testing comes in.

Silesian
09-11-2014, 09:15 PM
The Hungarian Jászság DNA Project - have DYS385[11-14]
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3141-R1b-CTS9219&p=51513

The region around Arkhangelsk[14%] have been have also DYS385[11-14] I don't about the Komi;it shows them also having R1b.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
Oleg Balanovsky, Siiri Rootsi, Andrey Pshenichnov et al., "Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context," American Journal of Human Genetics 82, 236–250, January 200
Odds are U98VT 1100+/-CE Czech is also most likely CTS-9219+

Here is the current mapping.
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/

brygian
09-11-2014, 09:24 PM
Are there any STR in particular, aside from the Balkan 11-11 signature that can predict CTS9219?

DYS446>14 is most certainly Balkan but not a must. DYS459=8-10 and DYS393=13 are indicative too.

brygian
09-11-2014, 09:31 PM
Here are 23 Balkan haplotypes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit?usp=sharing

Silesian
09-11-2014, 10:00 PM
Here are 23 Balkan haplotypes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit?usp=sharing
Wow interesting Smyrna is on your list.
Roy J King and al -2011 The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%).........Our population samples included a total of 89 male subjects, currently living in Greece, who trace their grand-paternal ancestry to either the area near Phokaia (n = 31) or Smyrna (n = 58) prior to the 1923 Exchange of Lausanne..
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

I'm not so sure your entries are fully Balkan though?
Here is one example using MDLP World-22 Oracle result on one of the entries.

1 81.3% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 18.7% Tatar (derived) @ 2.42
2 86.6% Belarusian_V (derived) + 13.4% Tadjik (derived) @ 2.49
3 88.6% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 11.4% Udmurd (derived) @ 2.57
4 62.9% Mordovian (derived) + 37.1% Croatian (derived) @ 2.61
5 90.2% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 9.8% Bashkir (derived) @ 2.65
6 64.9% Mordovian (derived) + 35.1% Bosnian (derived) @ 2.76
7 90.3% Ukrainian_V (derived) + 9.7% Udmurd (derived) @ 2.77
8 88.6% Belarusian_V (derived) + 11.4% Pashtun (derived) @ 2.81

ADW_1981
09-11-2014, 10:39 PM
Wouldn't rule out that CTS9219 got it's start in the Balkins or Carpathian Mountains although Asia Minor does seem more likely. Whatever, because of the diffuse distribution in Europe, it's my gut feeling that these subclades of R1b-Z2103 entered the rest of Europe really late in the game. Maybe 500 to 600 years ago or so excluding the Jewish diaspora which likely carried R1b-L277 and L584 from the Middle East at a earlier time.

They have been using DYS446=14 to help identify CTS9219 and usually DYS449 is 30 or higher. Of course these guides may change as more testing comes in.

The only thing is the latest ancient DNA evidence shows R1b is absent from neolithic Europe, which supports R1b entering Europe, including the Balkans much later in time. It's also unlikely R1b was among the first farmers in Asia Minor as per this same evidence. I also don't see any connection that would support R1b, CTS9219 included, suddenly appearing in the Balkans, and then somehow winding up near the Caspian sea as well. In my very humble opinion, the reverse migration makes a lot more sense.

Silesian
09-11-2014, 10:43 PM
Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?



The only thing is the latest ancient DNA evidence shows R1b is absent from neolithic Europe, which supports R1b entering Europe, including the Balkans much later in time. It's also unlikely R1b was among the first farmers in Asia Minor as per this same evidence.

Just going over and seeing Smyrna's elevated E.
Kosovar's also have elevated E and some R1b.
Albanians (Kosovar) IE (Albanian) 114N
R1b-21.1%
R1a-4.4%
I-7.9%
E- 47.4%
J-16.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group

What makes the Kosovar interesting if they also have a branch CTS-9219, is what the latest study had to say.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0105090

[I]In our ibd analysis, we also did not find evidences for specific gene flow from the Middle East to Kosovars

Pillar_of_fire
09-12-2014, 06:11 AM
This would make sense since the Balkan cluster with 385ab = 11-11 signature is a subset of the CTS9219 branch.

The reason for the post is because there is some discussion and disagreement with how IE speakers arrived in Albania and Greece. It's not clear from what I understand, and it wasn't clear at all, if not entirely shoved under the rug when I read HWL a few years back. (it was dry so I probably forgot a lot of stuff)

Just to bring to your attention that there is a Bulgarian with DYS385 11-14. and CTS9219+
kit number 331351

Silesian
09-12-2014, 06:26 PM
Comparing R1b-CTS 9219 with various R1b L277 and R1b L584 using Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions in Eastern Europe.

R1b CTS-9219+

sample 1
Population
ANE 18.95%
ASE 2.55%
WHG-UHG 68.77%
East_Eurasian 5.80%
West_African 0.20%
East_African 0.97%
ENF 2.76%

Population
sample 2
ANE 20.11%
ASE 2.33%
WHG-UHG 61.95%
East_Eurasian 1.75%
West_African 0.62%
East_African 0.20%
ENF 13.04%

sample 3
Population
ANE 17.75%
ASE 2.87%
WHG-UHG 65.34%
East_Eurasian 0.55%
West_African 0.05%
East_African 0.51%
ENF 12.92%

sample 4
Population
ANE 17.84%
ASE 3.83%
WHG-UHG 66.61%
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.78%
East_African 0.15%
ENF 10.78%

sample 5
Population
ANE 17.29%
ASE 2.09%
WHG-UHG 66.30%
East_Eurasian 1.59%
West_African 0.82%
East_African 0.75%
ENF 11.16%






R1b L584+
Population
ANE 18.71%
ASE 3.16%
WHG-UHG 67.42%
East_Eurasian 0.74%
West_African 0.43%
East_African 1.42%
ENF 8.12%


R1b-L277+


sample 1
Population
ANE 18.26%
ASE 1.92%
WHG-UHG 62.57%
East_Eurasian 1.56%
West_African 0.57%
East_African 0.19%
ENF 14.94%

sample 2
Population
ANE 17.35%
ASE 2.34%
WHG-UHG 66.37%
East_Eurasian 1.78%
West_African 0.42%
East_African 0.86%
ENF 10.88%

sample 3
ANE 20.68%
ASE 3.20%
WHG-UHG 67.19%
East_Eurasian 2.81%
West_African 0.60%
East_African 0.33%
ENF 5.19%





Armenian

ANE 15.30%
ASE 1.79%
WHG-UHG 39.86%
East_Eurasian 0.93%
West_African 0.07%
East_African -
ENF 42.03%

Silesian
09-15-2014, 02:30 PM
If the entire R1b Ossetian cluster is CTS9219+, and we are pretty confident that the Albanian/Greek 11-11 STR haplotype are also CTS9219+. Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?
Northern Pakistan was of interest regards to possible R1b and CTS-7822+ and CTS-9219+

Stumbled across a Punjabi possible R1b-CTS-7822+CTS9219+ comparing to Ossetian and Eastern European, R1b-CTS-9219+
ysearch,id-UZKNA from Multan, Punjab, Pakistan
UZKNA Multan, Punjab, Pakistan 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 9 9 11 11 25 15 18 29 14 15 16 18 10 11 19 23 15 12 12 11 11 13 24 10 14 12 13 10 30 24
5Y5EA Makhchesk, Ossetia, Russia [/I] 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 12 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 19 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 35 37 12 12 12 12 14
Genetic distance markers compared34/15
UZKNA Multan, Punjab, Pakistan R1b1a2a* Other - SMGF - -
5Y5EA Makhchesk, Ossetia, Russia Unknown Family Tree DNA 34 15

Weird the DYS-446 is 10 not common 14.
DYS-446 mutation rate dys446 dys446 0.00095
http://www.rogersdna.com/geddna/mutate.php

smal
10-28-2014, 04:09 PM
The Y5587, BY250, BY251 markers marking subclades of R-CTS9219 are available now in FTDNA for order.

Gascons-Sabat
11-08-2014, 04:05 PM
Hello
My name is Pascal Sabat, I'm French and my first identified agnatic ancestor is named Gascons from Catalunia, north of Barcelona.
In this area there was a greek colony Ampurias. This port became later a place for Roman veterans. Regarding my haplogroup, I guess I'm a descendant of one of them.
I've done a Geno 2.0 test and as far as I understand my haplogroup is CTS9219.
I've a biochemist education but since I received my results I still don't get how to undertand it ; a lot of notions and nomenclatures I should learn but I don't find any clear site to do so.
I believe there are CTS9219 readres and wonder if my results could help you.
I'm N126164 on familytreedna which gives me R1b1a1a4a while ISOGG gives me R1b1a2a2c1.

I don't know how to help.

Kind regards

Pascal

Joe B
11-08-2014, 06:29 PM
Hello
My name is Pascal Sabat, I'm French and my first identified agnatic ancestor is named Gascons from Catalunia, north of Barcelona.
In this area there was a greek colony Ampurias. This port became later a place for Roman veterans. Regarding my haplogroup, I guess I'm a descendant of one of them.
I've done a Geno 2.0 test and as far as I understand my haplogroup is CTS9219.
I've a biochemist education but since I received my results I still don't get how to undertand it ; a lot of notions and nomenclatures I should learn but I don't find any clear site to do so.
I believe there are CTS9219 readres and wonder if my results could help you.
I'm N126164 on familytreedna which gives me R1b1a1a4a while ISOGG gives me R1b1a2a2c1.

I don't know how to help.

Kind regards

Pascal

Hello Pascal,
Welcome to Anthrogenica. This forum is a great place to participate in the phylogenetic research with your R1b-CTS9219 branch or just to ask questions. Several members are R1b-CTS9219 and you will find them to be very helpful.
Please join the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) as this is where the research is being done. Have a look at the research tree that is often updated or the more basic tree for a general view. We have just added several new SNPs to your branch that you may want to consider testing for. The subgroup you will be assigned is _b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+.
Pascal, have you ordered a STR test? STRs are those long string of numbers that you see in FTDNA projects. STRs are an essential compliment to the SNP results from your Geno 2.0 test. http://isogg.org/wiki/Short_tandem_repeat
FTDNA's R1b1a1a4a and ISOGG's R1b1a2a2c1 mean the same thing, R1b-CTS9219 or R-CTS9219. Different organizations are struggling with that older type of nomeclature because of the rapid expansion of the human phylogenetic tree. Yfull R tree (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/) is another good one. The gentleman taking care this area of the tree for ISOGG is R1b-CTS9219 so that may be a good choice.

Thanks for checking in and sharing a little history of Catalunia.

Silesian
11-09-2014, 01:20 AM
Hello
My name is Pascal Sabat, I'm French and my first identified agnatic ancestor is named Gascons from Catalunia, north of Barcelona.
In this area there was a greek colony Ampurias. This port became later a place for Roman veterans. Regarding my haplogroup, I guess I'm a descendant of one of them.
I've done a Geno 2.0 test and as far as I understand my haplogroup is CTS9219.
I've a biochemist education but since I received my results I still don't get how to undertand it ; a lot of notions and nomenclatures I should learn but I don't find any clear site to do so.
I believe there are CTS9219 readres and wonder if my results could help you.
I'm N126164 on familytreedna which gives me R1b1a1a4a while ISOGG gives me R1b1a2a2c1.

I don't know how to help.

Kind regards

Pascal
A heartily welcome to our R1b-9219+ cluster. :)

Two samples R1b-CTS 9219+ samples from Spain might be of interest to you. I share a small segment with someone from Braga[not far from Mayorga 90135 sample]; is there a chance that your ancestors could be connected with Visigoths from Central Europe?
N66406 & 90135
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/table-color/637/

brygian
11-27-2014, 10:10 AM
The Bulgarian DNA project offers $100 discount coupons for Big Y to anybody who is predicted or confirmed CTS9219. The coupons expire soon so hurry up. Get in touch with me if you are interested.

brygian
12-25-2014, 09:16 PM
Some fresh results:

331841 CTS9219-
145692 BY250+
145692 Y5587-
84950 BY250-
5811 CTS9219+
64409 CTS9219-

brygian
12-31-2014, 03:04 PM
261086 is Y5587+.

brygian
01-02-2015, 05:07 PM
Some interesting observations:


Kit Branch DYF406S1 DYS525 DYS504
203564 BY250 10 10 17
145692 BY250 10 10 17
90135 BY250 10 10 17
164180 BY250 10 10 17
271283 BY250 10
321758 BY250 10

277816 Y5587 11 9 15
239214 Y5587 11 9 15
261086 Y5587 11 9 15
295890 Y5587 11 9 15
11746 Y5587 11


Interesting is that the Balkan cluster is closer to the WE cluster (BY250) than to the EE cluster (Y5587) as can be seen from these haplotypes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit?usp=sharing

Mis
01-06-2015, 02:08 PM
How old is y5587 ?

Abou
01-07-2015, 03:40 PM
For those who want a quick and dirty way for guessing the sign of their CTS9219, here's a simple trick. Notice that those who tested negative for CTS9219 have (statistically speaking) distinguished STRs from those who tested positive as follow:




DYS458
DYS447
DYS437
DYS449
DYS607
DYS534
DYS446
DYS572


CTS9219-
17
24
16
29
17
14
13
12


CTS9219+
16
25
15
30
16
15
14
11



Now, you just need to compute your distance with respect to the numbers shown in table. For instance for the case of Romitti (N37658) his numbers look like:



DYS458
DYS447
DYS437
DYS449
DYS607
DYS534
DYS446
DYS572


16
25
15
30
16
15
13
11



then compute the distance d^2 = (16-17)^2+(25-24)^2+... relative to the CTS9219- numbers above and similarly for CTS9219+. You will find a score of 7 for CTS9219- and 1 for CTS9219+. This means that Romitti will must likely turns up to be CTS9219+. Interestingly, with this measure most of R-L23 members in the ht35 project are turning up positive for the CTS9219 with the exception of group b3. Obviously, this will not dispense one from the real SNP testing and everyone is invited to perform it. For those who are impatient or can't afford this is not a bad measure.

brygian
01-07-2015, 04:28 PM
The easiest way is to look at DYS446 - 13 is CTS9219-, while 14 and more is CTS9219+. No need to calculate anything.

Abou
01-07-2015, 05:08 PM
In that case we have to wait for Romitti CTS9219 test. He has a DYS446 = 13, but I expect him to be CTS9219+.

Joe B
01-07-2015, 05:26 PM
How old is y5587 ?It's too early to really know how old Y5587 is and would be very speculative. That shouldn't stop anybody from trying. Hopefully, as more SNP data comes in the age ranges for this part of the tree will narrow.

brygian
01-07-2015, 08:23 PM
In that case we have to wait for Romitti CTS9219 test. He has a DYS446 = 13, but I expect him to be CTS9219+.

At some point there might be a cross over. So far DYS446 has been 100% reliable for CTS9219 predictions. Is Romitti waiting for FGC results?

lgmayka
01-07-2015, 10:42 PM
How old is y5587 ?
About the best estimate right now would be:
- Ask R-Y5587 Big Y participants how many "private" SNPs they have (best- and acceptable-quality only)
- Multiply by 140-150 years per SNP

brygian
01-08-2015, 07:51 PM
My Big Y results are out. I share 14174142C/T and 16792841A/G with H2014-ser-7 (Serbian). This is the Balkan cluster B)

brygian
01-11-2015, 07:17 PM
FTDNA # 5811 is BY250 while FTDNA # 47041 is CTS9219.

brygian
01-13-2015, 05:43 AM
The Balkan cluster SNP is now called A1777 and is available for testing at YSEQ.

kjjohnston
01-20-2015, 08:04 PM
Let me introduce myself in this thread. I am Kathy and I have an English Thornton on my mother's side of the family. My closest Thornton who tested is actually listed at SMGF.org and I added him to Ysearch ID UABE5. There is another related Thornton at Ysearch, who tested at FTDNA ID FSFBU. We have a pending R1b-CTS9219 ordered on him and I wondered how long it takes to get the results back. All of the these Thorntons have ancestry near the fort of Slack in Yorkshire, England. We made sure we tested more than one Thornton living in the UK so there would be no doubt about the origins of this subclade.

Here are some of the STR results that might be predictive if we combine the results of the above individuals:
458: 16, 447: 27, 437: 16, 449: 30, 607: 17, 534: not done, 446: 14 and 572 not done.

Modal 12 marker type in our Thornton cluster is:
12
24
14
11
11-11
12
12
12
13
13
29

There is plenty of archaeological evidence that suggests that the progenitor of these Thorntons came from an auxiliary force, the Breuci tribe from the Balkans during Roman times. That is my working hypothesis anyway.
I welcome all insights.
Kathy

Abou
01-21-2015, 01:17 PM
Let me introduce myself in this thread. I am Kathy and I have an English Thornton on my mother's side of the family. My closest Thornton who tested is actually listed at SMGF.org and I added him to Ysearch ID UABE5. There is another related Thornton at Ysearch, who tested at FTDNA ID FSFBU. We have a pending R1b-CTS9219 ordered on him and I wondered how long it takes to get the results back. All of the these Thorntons have ancestry near the fort of Slack in Yorkshire, England. We made sure we tested more than one Thornton living in the UK so there would be no doubt about the origins of this subclade.

Here are some of the STR results that might be predictive if we combine the results of the above individuals:
458: 16, 447: 27, 437: 16, 449: 30, 607: 17, 534: not done, 446: 14 and 572 not done.

Modal 12 marker type in our Thornton cluster is:
12
24
14
11
11-11
12
12
12
13
13
29

There is plenty of archaeological evidence that suggests that the progenitor of these Thorntons came from an auxiliary force, the Breuci tribe from the Balkans during Roman times. That is my working hypothesis anyway.
I welcome all insights.
Kathy

As it has been pointed out in this forum, a value of 14 for DYS446 is very likely a signature for CTS9219+. I mentioned previously in this thread, that we can improve the CTS9219 assignment accuracy if we take into account some specific STR values. For the numbers you gave, they also confirm that Thornton should be positive for CTS9219. It is interesting to note that the DYS385a,b values of 11-11 is typical of the Balkan R-L23, in line with their historical claim. I should, however, caution that this Balkan cluster has an overwhelmingly DYS393 of 13 unlike the Thornton. I bring to your attention that some of those in the ht35 project have DYS385a,b values of 11-11 yet with a DYS393 of 12. Namely the Perry (FTDNA kit 271283), the Sands (FTDNA kit N24004) and Seguer (FTDNA kit N66406). So who knows, the Thornton may turn-up to be Iberian or Basque after all.

brygian
01-21-2015, 03:38 PM
As it has been pointed out in this forum, a value of 14 for DYS446 is very likely a signature for CTS9219+. I mentioned previously in this thread, that we can improve the CTS9219 assignment accuracy if we take into account some specific STR values. For the numbers you gave, they also confirm that Thornton should be positive for CTS9219. It is interesting to note that the DYS385a,b values of 11-11 is typical of the Balkan R-L23, in line with their historical claim. I should, however, caution that this Balkan cluster has an overwhelmingly DYS393 of 13 unlike the Thornton. I bring to your attention that some of those in the ht35 project have DYS385a,b values of 11-11 yet with a DYS393 of 12. Namely the Perry (FTDNA kit 271283), the Sands (FTDNA kit N24004) and Seguer (FTDNA kit N66406). So who knows, the Thornton may turn-up to be Iberian or Basque after all.

Perry is BY250+, BY251+ while Sands and Seguer are negative.

ADW_1981
01-21-2015, 04:16 PM
As it has been pointed out in this forum, a value of 14 for DYS446 is very likely a signature for CTS9219+. I mentioned previously in this thread, that we can improve the CTS9219 assignment accuracy if we take into account some specific STR values. For the numbers you gave, they also confirm that Thornton should be positive for CTS9219. It is interesting to note that the DYS385a,b values of 11-11 is typical of the Balkan R-L23, in line with their historical claim. I should, however, caution that this Balkan cluster has an overwhelmingly DYS393 of 13 unlike the Thornton. I bring to your attention that some of those in the ht35 project have DYS385a,b values of 11-11 yet with a DYS393 of 12. Namely the Perry (FTDNA kit 271283), the Sands (FTDNA kit N24004) and Seguer (FTDNA kit N66406). So who knows, the Thornton may turn-up to be Iberian or Basque after all.

I don't know him personally, but I can tell you Thornton is English, not Basque or Iberian.

kjjohnston
01-21-2015, 06:05 PM
I don't know him personally, but I can tell you Thornton is English, not Basque or Iberian.

Yes, these Thorntons are clearly from England but their haplotype appears to be from somewhere else. It is interesting that before we knew anything about deep clade testing in 2005 I had this haplotype pegged as possibly from Serbia or Croatia. That is because the closest DNA results at SMGF.org (before others were added) were from "Yugoslavia". I remember seeing both DYS393 of 12 and 13 but with the DYS385a,b values of 11-11. I will be ecstatic if 10 years later the DNA evidence shows that these men really did enter England through a Roman army from the Balkans.

We have collected DNA from several Thorntons from the area around Huddersfield who have this same or related haplotype. We are still looking for connections to each other going back several centuries. So at least I know this DNA triangulates to England and is very old.

This is what I have found so far:

We know that the Roman auxiliary troops who migrated and stayed in the Huddersfield Yorkshire region were part of the Breuci tribe. They introduced tile making at the fort in Slack to the local people 2000 years ago. This is close to where my distant Thornton cousins all come from and as far as I can tell, their ancestors have been there a long time, perhaps long enough to descend from one of them.

The first thing I found was this web site:
http://www.huddersfield1.co.uk/huddersfield/huddsdomesday.htm

Through the Internet I became acquainted with a retired teacher in the local Huddersfield West Riding, England area who was also interested in the history of the local area. He (along with other citizen scientists) participates in the local archaeological digs every year. There are lots of tiles and pottery collected from under a car park at Slack (or nearby) every summer. He sent me a a lot of information including a picture of women’s shoes uncovered from the Roman fort displayed in the local museum. Could my ancestors have served with the Roman Army and kept families nearby? Did these these shoes belong to one of the wives?? There is plenty of evidence that these Breuci soldiers stuck around and mixed with the local people. They must have fathered children.

The Huddersfield area was once a thriving Roman town with important roads and aqueducts. It is doubtful that all these men retreated back to Eastern Europe at the end of their commitment. The Roman fort may have been covered up, but DNA is much more difficult to eradicate. A few years ago some local historians from England argued with me that the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons wiped out all vestiges of the Romans because only small farms remain in that region from earlier days. We shall see....

The following diploma gives one of the most convincing pieces of archaeological evidences that the Breuci tribe came from Slavonski Brod region. http://www.sbnet.hr/diploma/diplomae.htm .

Thanks for the input from those of you who are promoting this investigation of CTS9219.

Kathy

brygian
01-21-2015, 06:21 PM
I think that there is a very high probability that the Thorntons are CTS9219. But the question is if they belong to the BY250 branch like Perry or to the A1777 branch like Seguer and eventually Sands. If the Thorntons belong to the A1777 branch, then there will be very high probability that they have some connection with the Balkans. But if they turn out to be BY250+ - we have no confirmed or predicted BY250+ individuals from the Balkans so far.

smal
01-21-2015, 07:07 PM
brygian, please, check whether Y10789=A1777 ?

brygian
01-21-2015, 07:21 PM
brygian, please, check whether Y10789=A1777 ?

My data is still processing but if I browse for the A1777 position in my BAM file via YFull, it says:

ChrY position: 15157232 (+strand)
Reads: 5
Position data: 5C
Weight for C: 1.0
Probability of error: 0.0 (0<->1)
Sample allele: C
Reference (hg19) allele: T
Known SNPs at this position: Y10789 (T->C)

I ordered this SNP test from YSEQ to be sure that I am positive. If all goes well, we may have the results next week. Then I will be testing three of ser-7's positions too (two no-calls and one dubious match).

Abou
01-22-2015, 05:29 AM
I don't know him personally, but I can tell you Thornton is English, not Basque or Iberian.

I was just refering to Seguer who is from spain. However, Seguer himself seems to be linked to the Balkan cluster. But (as ususal) things are more complicated than they seem. For instance, if you look at the latest ht35 tree, you will find at one branch above the Balkan cluster a French Basque guy (HGDP00515) . As well there is one Spanish Basque guy (HG01515) just below it. They may turn up to be of Roman-Balkanic orgin as well. But it's good to keep that in mind.

Silesian
01-28-2015, 03:21 PM
I was just refering to Seguer who is from spain. However, Seguer himself seems to be linked to the Balkan cluster. But (as ususal) things are more complicated than they seem. For instance, if you look at the latest ht35 tree, you will find at one branch above the Balkan cluster a French Basque guy (HGDP00515) . As well there is one Spanish Basque guy (HG01515) just below it. They may turn up to be of Roman-Balkanic orgin as well. But it's good to keep that in mind.

Since some of us carrying R1b-cts-9219+ also show levels of ANE Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) admixture across Europe & Asia

I thought it might be useful to show regions where R1b-cts-9219+ and ANE are found.
Credit to Eurogenes and Eupedia for work in showing ANE.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2014/03/ancient-north-eurasian-ane-levels.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v4zYizoWtsoW1MNBN7SUrLf8R62NHPbMRySUJ2J48_Q/edit?pli=1#gid=1410860471

Eupedia @
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30763-New-map-of-Ancient-Eurasian-%28ANE%29-admixture

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Ancient_North_Eurasian_admixture.png

brygian
01-30-2015, 07:14 PM
We have a new Big Y result from the NE European group - 99230. He possibly forms a new branch with 295890 - we will only know for sure when smal analyses the data and updates the tree.

2Bellies
02-15-2015, 04:25 AM
brygian: Re ur post of 01/02/2015 -- YFULL analyzed the raw BAM file for kit 321758 with the following results -- DYS525=11 and DYS504=17. FYI FTDNA lists me as CT9219 while additional analysis by Yfull says terminal SNP is CTS1450.

lgmayka
02-15-2015, 11:11 AM
YFull's new haplotree has dates and confidence intervals. R-CTS1450 (which is the same as R-CTS9219) is 4400 years old (http://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/), with a confidence interval of 3500-5600 years. R-Y5587 is essentially the same age. But R-V2986 (the Slavic subclade?) is 1700 (1050-2400) years old.

brygian
03-10-2015, 06:24 PM
Everybody who is predicted or confirmed R1b-CTS9219 and has DYS385=11-11 or DYS385=10-11 can get a FREE A1777/BY611/Y10789 test at YSEQ paid by me.

kjjohnston
03-19-2015, 08:30 PM
Yes, these Thorntons are clearly from England but their haplotype appears to be from somewhere else. It is interesting that before we knew anything about deep clade testing in 2005 I had this haplotype pegged as possibly from Serbia or Croatia. That is because the closest DNA results at SMGF.org (before others were added) were from "Yugoslavia". I remember seeing both DYS393 of 12 and 13 but with the DYS385a,b values of 11-11. I will be ecstatic if 10 years later the DNA evidence shows that these men really did enter England through a Roman army from the Balkans.

We have collected DNA from several Thorntons from the area around Huddersfield who have this same or related haplotype. We are still looking for connections to each other going back several centuries. So at least I know this DNA triangulates to England and is very old.

This is what I have found so far:

We know that the Roman auxiliary troops who migrated and stayed in the Huddersfield Yorkshire region were part of the Breuci tribe. They introduced tile making at the fort in Slack to the local people 2000 years ago. This is close to where my distant Thornton cousins all come from and as far as I can tell, their ancestors have been there a long time, perhaps long enough to descend from one of them.

The first thing I found was this web site:
http://www.huddersfield1.co.uk/huddersfield/huddsdomesday.htm

Through the Internet I became acquainted with a retired teacher in the local Huddersfield West Riding, England area who was also interested in the history of the local area. He (along with other citizen scientists) participates in the local archaeological digs every year. There are lots of tiles and pottery collected from under a car park at Slack (or nearby) every summer. He sent me a a lot of information including a picture of women’s shoes uncovered from the Roman fort displayed in the local museum. Could my ancestors have served with the Roman Army and kept families nearby? Did these these shoes belong to one of the wives?? There is plenty of evidence that these Breuci soldiers stuck around and mixed with the local people. They must have fathered children.

The Huddersfield area was once a thriving Roman town with important roads and aqueducts. It is doubtful that all these men retreated back to Eastern Europe at the end of their commitment. The Roman fort may have been covered up, but DNA is much more difficult to eradicate. A few years ago some local historians from England argued with me that the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons wiped out all vestiges of the Romans because only small farms remain in that region from earlier days. We shall see....

The following diploma gives one of the most convincing pieces of archaeological evidences that the Breuci tribe came from Slavonski Brod region. http://www.sbnet.hr/diploma/diplomae.htm .

Thanks for the input from those of you who are promoting this investigation of CTS9219.

Kathy

My Thornton cousin is positive for R1b-CTS9219.

kjjohnston
03-29-2015, 04:20 PM
My Thornton cousin is positive for R1b-CTS9219.

OK. So now that our Thornton is positive for BY250, what does that mean? Does that support my hypothesis that this cluster entered Great Britain during Roman times or does it go against that idea? How old is BY250 thought to be? Is this RecLOH event (11-11 at DYS385) different (more recent?) and coincidental compared to those living in the Balkans.
Thanks for any opinions.
Kathy

brygian
03-29-2015, 07:43 PM
OK. So now that our Thornton is positive for BY250, what does that mean? Does that support my hypothesis that this cluster entered Great Britain during Roman times or does it go against that idea? How old is BY250 thought to be? Is this RecLOH event (11-11 at DYS385) different (more recent?) and coincidental compared to those living in the Balkans.
Thanks for any opinions.
Kathy

This seems to be a different RecLOH event. Probably you will cluster with Perry. Nobody currently knows when BY250 entered Great Britain - it may very well be during Roman times, before or after that.

brygian
05-29-2015, 06:02 PM
My friend FTDNA-393986/YSEQ-1382 turned out to be BY250+. He is the first East European person to be tested positive for this SNP. My cousin YSEQ-1385 most probably belongs to the same group.

Mis
05-29-2015, 08:23 PM
N29965 Belarus is also By250+

Geni
05-29-2015, 09:16 PM
Comparing R1b-CTS 9219 with various R1b L277 and R1b L584 using Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions in Eastern Europe.

R1b CTS-9219+

sample 1
Population
ANE 18.95%
ASE 2.55%
WHG-UHG 68.77%
East_Eurasian 5.80%
West_African 0.20%
East_African 0.97%
ENF 2.76%

Population
sample 2
ANE 20.11%
ASE 2.33%
WHG-UHG 61.95%
East_Eurasian 1.75%
West_African 0.62%
East_African 0.20%
ENF 13.04%

sample 3
Population
ANE 17.75%
ASE 2.87%
WHG-UHG 65.34%
East_Eurasian 0.55%
West_African 0.05%
East_African 0.51%
ENF 12.92%

sample 4
Population
ANE 17.84%
ASE 3.83%
WHG-UHG 66.61%
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.78%
East_African 0.15%
ENF 10.78%

sample 5
Population
ANE 17.29%
ASE 2.09%
WHG-UHG 66.30%
East_Eurasian 1.59%
West_African 0.82%
East_African 0.75%
ENF 11.16%






R1b L584+
Population
ANE 18.71%
ASE 3.16%
WHG-UHG 67.42%
East_Eurasian 0.74%
West_African 0.43%
East_African 1.42%
ENF 8.12%


R1b-L277+


sample 1
Population
ANE 18.26%
ASE 1.92%
WHG-UHG 62.57%
East_Eurasian 1.56%
West_African 0.57%
East_African 0.19%
ENF 14.94%

sample 2
Population
ANE 17.35%
ASE 2.34%
WHG-UHG 66.37%
East_Eurasian 1.78%
West_African 0.42%
East_African 0.86%
ENF 10.88%

sample 3
ANE 20.68%
ASE 3.20%
WHG-UHG 67.19%
East_Eurasian 2.81%
West_African 0.60%
East_African 0.33%
ENF 5.19%





Armenian

ANE 15.30%
ASE 1.79%
WHG-UHG 39.86%
East_Eurasian 0.93%
West_African 0.07%
East_African -
ENF 42.03%



Hi Silesian ..i am Geni ..now i am R1b-CTS9219 > BY611/A1777/Y10789+ by R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)..... (L150+, L23+, Z2105+, Z2103+, BY611+, L277-, L584-, YSC0000072-, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-)

brygian
05-29-2015, 09:27 PM
Hi Silesian ..i am Geni ..now i am R1b-CTS9219 > BY611/A1777/Y10789+ by R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)..... (L150+, L23+, Z2105+, Z2103+, BY611+, L277-, L584-, YSC0000072-, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-)

Welcome to the forum Geni! Good that you tested BY611. Your must also be positive for at least some of PH544, PH970, PH2535, PH2903 but most probably for all of them. Unfortunately they are not currently available at FTDNA and can only be tested at YSEQ. Another option (the best one) is to go for Big Y.

Geni
05-29-2015, 09:34 PM
Thank you brygian..but what is BY611... look the liste her please..

b3b3. R1b-CTS9219 > BY611/A1777/Y10789+
N24004 James F. Sands, b. 1817 and d. 1887 Unknown Origin R-CTS9219 12 23 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 12 11 25 15 18 31 14-14-18-18 12 12 19-23 15 14 19 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
N66406 March Antoni Seguer, b. 1671 Spain R-CTS9219 12 24 13 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-16-18-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 18 37-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 0 21-25 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 11 33 14 9 16 12 26 26 19 13 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 11 13 24 14 10 10 20 15 19 14 24 17 12 15 26 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
E12439 FEGA 1945 Albania R-L23 13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 9 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 37 15 9 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 14 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 11 11
247396 Nicholas Svombo, c1827 - 1876 Greece R-L23 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 18 36-40 11 12
226788 Grigor Zlatkov b. 1898 and d. 1973 Macedonia R-CTS9219 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 26 15 19 31 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
314859 Ahmed Hodzha Sertkehayov, d. 1912 (Pomak) Bulgaria R-CTS9219 13 24

Is this normal for 1 albanian ..to be in the same liste with 2 bullgarians ,1 spaniard and probable 1 english man ?:confused:

brygian
05-29-2015, 09:37 PM
Thank you brygian..but what is BY611... look the liste her please..

b3b3. R1b-CTS9219 > BY611/A1777/Y10789+
N24004 James F. Sands, b. 1817 and d. 1887 Unknown Origin R-CTS9219 12 23 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 12 11 25 15 18 31 14-14-18-18 12 12 19-23 15 14 19 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
N66406 March Antoni Seguer, b. 1671 Spain R-CTS9219 12 24 13 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-16-18-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 18 37-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 0 21-25 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 11 33 14 9 16 12 26 26 19 13 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 11 13 24 14 10 10 20 15 19 14 24 17 12 15 26 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
E12439 FEGA 1945 Albania R-L23 13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 9 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 37 15 9 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 14 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 11 11
247396 Nicholas Svombo, c1827 - 1876 Greece R-L23 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 18 36-40 11 12
226788 Grigor Zlatkov b. 1898 and d. 1973 Macedonia R-CTS9219 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 26 15 19 31 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
314859 Ahmed Hodzha Sertkehayov, d. 1912 (Pomak) Bulgaria R-CTS9219 13 24

Is this normal for 1 albanian ..to be in the same liste with 2 bullgarians ,1 spaniard and probable 1 english man ?:confused:

A1777/BY611/Y10789 is the proto-Balkan cluster. Better have a look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit#gid=0 You will find more Albanians and Kosovars.

Geni
05-29-2015, 09:45 PM
ej .. we have the same y dna ..:beerchug:

brygian
05-29-2015, 09:47 PM
ej .. we have the same y dna ..:beerchug:

I am kit 314859 :)

Geni
05-29-2015, 09:49 PM
I am E12439 Fega

Geni
05-29-2015, 10:00 PM
I am kit 314859 :)

but your DYS are like my Dys...11-11,16-8-10..albanians have dys like this..

brygian
05-30-2015, 03:09 PM
but your DYS are like my Dys...11-11,16-8-10..albanians have dys like this..

This is the branching inside A1777/BY611/Y10789 based on 37 STR markers:

4664

Keep in mind that some of the Italians and Greeks in this spreadsheet are of Albanian origin. Keep also in mind that STR markers aren't absolutely accurate. I would suggest that you take the Big Y test. Once people from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Albania/Kosovo and Greece have taken a similar test, we will know for sure how we are related to each other. We already have a person from Bulgaria and Serbia. Am also aware of a person from Greece who is going to order Big Y the next time it is on sale. Hopefully we get an Albanian and Macedonian person tested for Big Y soon too.

Silesian
05-30-2015, 08:27 PM
Hi Silesian ..i am Geni ..now i am R1b-CTS9219 > BY611/A1777/Y10789+ by R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)..... (L150+, L23+, Z2105+, Z2103+, BY611+, L277-, L584-, YSC0000072-, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-)
Hi Geni nice to hear from you my R1b 9219+ brother:amen:; and welcome to the forum:beerchug:

brygian
06-05-2015, 02:42 PM
My friend FTDNA-393986/YSEQ-1382 turned out to be BY250+. He is the first East European person to be tested positive for this SNP. My cousin YSEQ-1385 most probably belongs to the same group.

My other cousin, YSEQ-1385, was confirmed BY250+. They are very different from everybody else but the genetic distance among them is large too. What they have in common is DYS448=20 in contrast to all other confirmed CTS9219.

Geni
02-06-2016, 11:36 AM
Welcome to the forum Geni! Good that you tested BY611. Your must also be positive for at least some of PH544, PH970, PH2535, PH2903 but most probably for all of them. Unfortunately they are not currently available at FTDNA and can only be tested at YSEQ. Another option (the best one) is to go for Big Y.

You are right i am now...R-PH544....

Trojet
02-06-2016, 12:34 PM
You are right i am now...R-PH544....

To really understand the R1b-Balkan Cluster better and discover sub-branches that are much younger (Iron Age and younger), you should've save up for a NGS test, such as the BigY instead of ordering SNP Packs (or SNPs) that is obvious you would test positive or negative for, since you were already tested BY611+.

It is easy to predict that someone from the Balkans will be positive for R1b-BY611>PH544 basically by just taking a Y12 test ($59), no SNP testing needed.

Skerdilaidas
02-21-2016, 03:15 AM
To really understand the R1b-Balkan Cluster better and discover sub-branches that are much younger (Iron Age and younger), you should've save up for a NGS test, such as the BigY instead of ordering SNP Packs (or SNPs) that is obvious you would test positive or negative for, since you were already tested BY611+.

It is easy to predict that someone from the Balkans will be positive for R1b-BY611>PH544 basically by just taking a Y12 test ($59), no SNP testing needed.

It would be actually very useful if both me and Geni ended up doing the bigy, since we are quite distantly related.

brygian
03-06-2016, 01:25 PM
I belong to the Balkan cluster and I have already tested Big Y. We need at least one more person to do Big Y.

Skerdilaidas
03-06-2016, 01:39 PM
I belong to the Balkan cluster and I have already tested Big Y. We need at least one more person to do Big Y.

I am doing it this year during holidays when sales are offered, and Geni will be doing it too but not sure when.

Joe B
03-06-2016, 05:33 PM
This is the branching inside A1777/BY611/Y10789 based on 37 STR markers:

4664

Keep in mind that some of the Italians and Greeks in this spreadsheet are of Albanian origin. Keep also in mind that STR markers aren't absolutely accurate. I would suggest that you take the Big Y test. Once people from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Albania/Kosovo and Greece have taken a similar test, we will know for sure how we are related to each other. We already have a person from Bulgaria and Serbia. Am also aware of a person from Greece who is going to order Big Y the next time it is on sale. Hopefully we get an Albanian and Macedonian person tested for Big Y soon too.
The Balkin cluster will really benefit from NGS testing. There is the possibilty to put some good TMRCA estimates on the different sub-clusters. Age estimating possible founder effects would be interesting. When did DYS385=11-11 develop and when did DYS393 change from 12 to 13?

brygian
04-24-2016, 04:20 PM
I am doing it this year during holidays when sales are offered, and Geni will be doing it too but not sure when.

There is a sale going on right now.

Skerdilaidas
04-24-2016, 06:03 PM
There is a sale going on right now.
Yeah I know but unfortunately can't do it right now because I have planned to test, via Albanian Bloodlines project, some brotherhoods from my Clans original tribal land in Puka, Albania. Will do it though for sure by the end of the year, if everything goes as planned.

Btw, I see that kit #398627 has ordered bigy, so it should be interesting to see how his results turn up, since I am matching him GD of 5 on 67.

Skerdilaidas
08-07-2016, 10:50 PM
Brygian, is the TMRCA 900ybp between you and kit# 398627 by any chance? https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

Mis
01-24-2017, 10:36 PM
R1b- CTS9219 with R1a1a7-M458 came to the Caucasus from Eastern Europe.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/10/2905.full.pdf+html

DCBarry
02-19-2017, 05:16 PM
After taking the Big-Y on FTDNA I was determined to be BY611; uploading my results to Y-Full further refined my terminal haplogroup to be Y10789, and then further still to Y30192. I'm still trying to wrap my ahead around the numbers and decode what it all means in layman's terms, but thought I'd add the numbers to the ones listed by my fellow BY611-ers. I've been told perhaps there is some Arbereshe ancestry, perhaps Arvanite, but it's all conjecture (although interesting). I do know that my most distant male ancestor is Alessandro Bisaccia, from Volturara Italy circa 1858.

Ownstyler
06-12-2018, 02:52 AM
Does anyone know how to determine TMRCA for two individuals if the markers are available? I got my results and it's BY611 but I'm not sure I'm part of any of its subclades or how far my TMRCA is with the others in the same group.

Also, is anyone still updating the Balkan cluster tree? And could someone please direct me to the source for the Balkan cluster markers? I'm interested to see the non-Balkan members as well.

Joe B
06-12-2018, 04:37 AM
Does anyone know how to determine TMRCA for two individuals if the markers are available? I got my results and it's BY611 but I'm not sure I'm part of any of its subclades or how far my TMRCA is with the others in the same group.

Also, is anyone still updating the Balkan cluster tree? And could someone please direct me to the source for the Balkan cluster markers? I'm interested to see the non-Balkan members as well. Welcome to Anthrogenica. YFull is a good source for R1b-BY611 SNP based TMRCA estimates. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/ Please consider joining the R1b Basal Subclades project as it covers R1b-Z2103 subclades like BY611. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about What Y DNA testing have you done?

Ownstyler
06-12-2018, 05:14 AM
Welcome to Anthrogenica. YFull is a good source for R1b-BY611 SNP based TMRCA estimates. Please consider joining the R1b Basal Subclades project as it covers R1b-Z2103 subclades like BY611. What Y DNA testing have you done?

Thank you! I did the YSEQ alpha-beta one for 37 markers. Do you think that's enough to determine the subclade downstream of BY611 and TMRCA with other members there or should I do another test?

Joe B
06-12-2018, 04:52 PM
YSEQ's Alpha-Beta is a 37 STR marker test. Were you predicted to be in the R1b-BY611 haplogroup based on only STRs? Or declared R1b-BY611 by SNP testing? More STR testing will not help with determining your downstream haplogroup. That requires SNP testing.

Ownstyler
06-12-2018, 06:39 PM
No actually the email I got only placed me in Z2103 but when I put the results into the nevgen haplogroup predictor it came out as BY611 with 100% probability. YSEQ suggested I now take their R1b-Z2103 test which would determine the furthest downstream subclade.

I would like to know my TMRCA in relation to other BY611 members. Do you think I can do that with the information I already have, or should I take their test, or another test altogether?

Trojet
06-12-2018, 07:11 PM
No actually the email I got only placed me in Z2103 but when I put the results into the nevgen haplogroup predictor it came out as BY611 with 100% probability. YSEQ suggested I now take their R1b-Z2103 test which would determine the furthest downstream subclade.

I would like to know my TMRCA in relation to other BY611 members. Do you think I can do that with the information I already have, or should I take their test, or another test altogether?

Hi Ownstyler. First of all congratulations on your result! You should join our YSEQ group (My Account > Group Browser > Scoll down to 109. Albanian Bloodlines) so we can analyze your results and participate in our project if you want to.

The majority of Albanian R1b-BY611 is Y33200+ which is downstream of BY611/Y10789>Y23373>Z2705 as you can see: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/
So I think there is a good chance you are Y33200+ also. You can confirm this for only $18 at YSEQ: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=56964

Ps. No need to take the YSEQ R1b-Z2103 Panel, as it only tests to the Z2705 aka CTS883 level, and I'm 100% confident you will be positive for at least thal level (assuming you have the expected STR signature).

Ownstyler
06-12-2018, 08:04 PM
Double post

Ownstyler
06-12-2018, 08:22 PM
Hi Ownstyler. First of all congratulations on your result! You should join our YSEQ group (My Account > Group Browser > Scoll down to 109. Albanian Bloodlines) so we can analyze your results and participate in our project if you want to.

The majority of Albanian R1b-BY611 is Y33200+ which is downstream of BY611/Y10789>Y23373>Z2705 as you can see
So I think there is a good chance you are Y33200+ also. You can confirm this for only $18 at YSEQ

Ps. No need to take the YSEQ R1b-Z2103 Panel, as it only tests to the Z2705 aka CTS883 level, and I'm 100% confident you will be positive for at least thal level (assuming you have the expected STR signature).

Thank you Trojet! I'll join as soon as I get back to my laptop. My only remaining question is regarding tmrca in relation to other BY611 members. Do you think it can be calculated with the test I already have and the $18 one? I ask because comparing to BY611 from the R1b basal and the Albanian bloodlines project, I see I have some differences, and my closest matches aren't on yfull so I'm not sure if their estimate for the Y33200 applies to me.

Trojet
06-12-2018, 08:29 PM
Thank you Trojet! I'll join as soon as I get back to my laptop. My only remaining question is regarding tmrca in relation to other BY611 members. Do you think it can be calculated with the test I already have and the $18 one? I ask because comparing to BY611 from the R1b basal and the Albanian bloodlines project, I see I have some differences, and my closest matches aren't on yfull so I'm not sure if their estimate for the Y33200 applies to me.

Y33200 TMRCA is ~1300 ybp according to YFull. So all those who are Y32200+ share that TMRCA. Obviously with STRs you can tell if you're closer than that timeframe to certain samples, especially if you share off modal values. There seems to be a lot of convergence for this subclade though, so STRs especially at 37 markers can only get you so far...

EDIT: You can experiment with this STR calculator: http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

Or this one: http://dna.cfsna.net/HAP/Modified-yUtility.htm

Joe B
06-12-2018, 08:55 PM
Seen too many problems with that Nevgen STR haplogroup predictor for R1b-Z2103. STR convergence is a problem for this particular Balkan subclade. The problem lies with DYS393=13. That varies from the normal DYS393=12 for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup. Many who think they are BY611+ end up belonging to one of the R1b-L51 haplogroups. Why guess when it's easy enough to test for BY611 and all the other SNPs?

Ownstyler
06-15-2018, 08:29 PM
Can you point to the specific sentence that makes that claim? I did not find anything about it.

Ownstyler
06-19-2018, 03:09 PM
R1b- CTS9219 with R1a1a7-M458 came to the Caucasus from Eastern Europe.[/url]

Which part of the article mentions this? I can't find anything like that.

Mis
06-19-2018, 07:46 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8444-Groch-z-kapust%26%23261%3B/page21

Skerdilaidas
07-02-2018, 05:52 PM
Albanian sample at YSEQ (kit #12493) tested as: CTS9219+ BY250- Y5587- BY611- Y15982- Y19469-

smal
07-02-2018, 06:02 PM
Albanian sample at YSEQ (kit #12493) tested as: CTS9219+ BY250- Y5587- BY611- Y15982- Y19469-

He should be tested for Y18959.

Skerdilaidas
07-02-2018, 07:02 PM
He should be tested for Y18959.

Just ordered it through ‘Wish a SNP’ so will update this thread with the outcome once we get his results.

Skerdilaidas
07-03-2018, 05:37 AM
YSEQ’s response on regards to my Y18959 order, they deemed it not stable:

‘Unfortunately your wished SNP is located in a region which has a very high homology to a fragment on chromosome 1. Due to the high frequency of recombination events which can occur this SNP is not stable.
Therefore we do not recommend to analyze this SNP’

smal
07-03-2018, 08:49 AM
YSEQ’s response on regards to my Y18959 order, they deemed it not stable:

‘Unfortunately your wished SNP is located in a region which has a very high homology to a fragment on chromosome 1. Due to the high frequency of recombination events which can occur this SNP is not stable.
Therefore we do not recommend to analyze this SNP’

This is true, there is a theoretical probability of such recombination. However, the random selection of 176 samples from R1b Basal Subclades project shows that all positive samples (10 of 176) belong to the single Y18959 branch. Such results would be not possible in a case of the significant real recombination in this region. So, the practical results are not in an agreement with the YSEQ assumption.

Skerdilaidas
07-03-2018, 05:41 PM
This is true, there is a theoretical probability of such recombination. However, the random selection of 176 samples from R1b Basal Subclades project shows that all positive samples (10 of 176) belong to the single Y18959 branch. Such results would be not possible in a case of the significant real recombination in this region. So, the practical results are not in an agreement with the YSEQ assumption.

So all samples under BY611 and Y5587 that have done NGS tests are consistent? Even yfull seems to have rated it high. Unfortunately YSEQ is not adding it so therefore not able to test it as an individual SNP.

From my Y Elite:
http://oi68.tinypic.com/qp33mc.jpg

Ownstyler
07-20-2018, 01:23 PM
I've been told perhaps there is some Arbereshe ancestry, perhaps Arvanite, but it's all conjecture (although interesting). I do know that my most distant male ancestor is Alessandro Bisaccia, from Volturara Italy circa 1858.

DCBarry, do you mind sharing the source of this information? Is it a collective family memory or did someone find some data on this? I know that in Italy they have demographic and tax registers archived in the capital of each province or at the medieval capital of the local political entity.

There are a few locations in Puglia that were settled by Albanians of Skanderbeg with the permission of Ferdinand of Naples. They were of the orthodox faith (like Arvanites) and one of their settlements was Casalvecchio, which is very close to Volturara. If you happen to know anyone from there, maybe it would be possible to verify this connection it real.