PDA

View Full Version : Book on the Celts: surname-subclade connections wanted



Jean M
09-17-2014, 11:04 AM
I am currently working on a book on the Celts to be published next year. I am keen to include some success stories in linking subclades of P312 to specific surnames. I had in mind:


R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser
R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
R1b-L745/S463: Stewart
R1b-Z196: Dwyer/Ryan


All corrections and suggestions welcome. Feel free to contact me by PM if you prefer anonymity on here.

Dubhthach
09-17-2014, 12:34 PM
R1b-DF85 and it's subclade R1b-DF97 appears connected to Cenél Conaill surnames (Gallagher, O'Donnell, O'Doherty), that's under M222. The half-brother of the "O'Conor Don" is confirmed as R1b-M222+ thus linking the O'Connor's of Connacht (Uí Briúin Aí) to M222

R1b-L226 linked to the O'Brien's and other Dál gCais surnames. "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) has recently done BigY testing and is confirmed R1b-L226+.

R1b-CTS4466 linked to serveral surnames derived from the Eoghanacht of Munster (Irish Type II cluster) including McCarthy, Murphy and O'Mahoney.

R1b-L513 linked to Maguire and several related surnames of Fermanagh (Airgíalla II cluster) -- Maguires were Lords of Fermanagh until 1607
R1b-DF21 specifically S971/Z3017 linked to "Clann Colla" (Airgíalla I cluster) basically McMahon lordship of Monaghan during middle ages until the intentional execution of "The McMahon" by the Tudor state and the shiring of the lordship.

The seven "septs of Laois" appear to be R1b-DF21+ (O'Moore been one of prime families, a family also whose power was destroyed by the Tudor state)

R1b-Z255 (L159 is variable) appears linked to several "dynasts" within what could be classed as the Laighin (Laigin = old Irish) aka "Leinstermen", so O'Bryne, O'Toole, Kavanagh, Murphy etc.

R1b-DF27 (Z196-) appears connected to the O'Neill's of Ulster (who aren't thus M222) this ties in with lineage discussed in this document:
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

That's just some of the top of my head.

Jean M
09-17-2014, 12:42 PM
@ Dubhthach Thank you very much. I think I had most of those in my notes, but the "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) result is news to me. Excellent! I'm keen to go for one or two families with some paper history.

Dubhthach
09-17-2014, 02:38 PM
Dennis Wright posted this on the L21 mailing list



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 12:02 PM
Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] Fwd: Great day for Irish Type III R-L226 Group
To: [email protected]



Yesterday 19 results from the branching SNP under L226, FGC5628 came in.

33% were -ve and 67% were +ve showing this is a significant branch under L226. We are still waiting for the results of a further 8 x FGC5628 tests.
The results from the second branching SNP, DC1, are still to come in and 20 men have ordered this SNP.

The final piece of good news is that the Big-Y results for Sir Conor O'Brien, Chief of the Clan, have been received, which shows there is a FURTHER branch in the L226 below DC1, a SNP called YFS231286.

A further block has been added to the Z253 Tree
R-L226 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/L226%20BigY%20Analysis.xlsx
Z253 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/Z253%20BigY%20Novel.xlsx

Eleven further R-L226 Big-Y results are expected from orders placed with the Father' Day sale.
How many further branches will Big-Y reveal?

--
Dennis Wright
Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir
Irish Type III R-L226
"We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes."
---




"Baron Inchiquin" is something like 32 generations direct descendant of Brian Boru (d. 1014) with a fully verified lineage.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [R1b-L21-Project] Fwd: Great day for Irish Type III R-L226 Group
To: [email protected]



Paul,

Yes, Conor is happy for it to be known, if it assists in the knowledge and use of Big-Y that he is 32nd in descent from Brian Boru, 941-1014AD.
So in his line, 32 generations over 1,002 years, (birth date to birth date) or 31.3 years per generation.

With a further 11 x L226 men testing Big-Y, I believe we will generate a strong genetic family tree for the Dal gCais clan.

Dennis Wright

---

razyn
09-17-2014, 03:10 PM
You're a little ahead of our pace of testing UK cousins (trying to prove matches where the paper record is weak or wanting), over 'ere in the colonies. But in case it's of any interest -- being in Bristol, and all -- I've previously posted here about a small cluster I'm in (under P312, DF27) that includes several surnames from that part of SW England.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2762-New-quot-Bristol-Channel-DNA-quot-project-at-FTDNA-with-secondary-focus-on-CTS7822&p=44289&viewfull=1#post44289

I haven't claimed they are Celts, but it's your book, and I've certainly enjoyed your other one.

Agamemnon
09-17-2014, 05:09 PM
I am currently working on a book on the Celts to be published next year. I am keen to include some success stories in linking subclades of P312 to specific surnames. I had in mind:


R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser
R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
R1b-L745/S463: Stewart
R1b-Z196: Dwyer/Ryan


All corrections and suggestions welcome. Feel free to contact me by PM if you prefer anonymity on here.

Well all my Clarke ancestors were U152 (probably Z49), though I wonder if this counts for other Clarke folks out there (my Clarke line came from modern-day Suffolk, an area which was once stood in the Iceni tribe's territory, and there's a local U152 peak where my grandfather's paternal ancestors came from).

Jean M
09-17-2014, 05:26 PM
Well all my Clarke ancestors were U152 .

Thanks for letting me know, but unfortunately this is one of those common surnames for which there will be many different Y-DNA lineages. I need to avoid those. If I want to make the point that we can connect Y-DNA and surnames, I think I need to go for the little subclades that get close to being a single family lineage from the time of surname creation, though there are special cases (like Whalen and Rosser) that make a different point i.e. tracking a family connection with different surnames.

Gray Fox
09-17-2014, 08:30 PM
I'm not sure if my surname would be one that you would have in your book, but it does seem to match a few of your requirements. As you know it isn't the most common name in the UK or Ireland, though there are a few distinct branches I am aware of. The Welsh variety is relatively new and due to the patronymic naming system, it is too convoluted to attribute to one specific subclade. The Jewish variety faces a similar problem to the Welsh variety, it is new and many different, unrelated people adopted it. There is my own variety which appears to have possibly been introduced via the Normans and has remained in Devon for centuries. There is also a second variety from Lincolnshire. This branch appears to belong to haplo I1-M253. The only Welsh participant we have had tested also belongs to haplo I1-M253. The family traces its ancestry back to South Wales, the area of highest frequency for the name. My variety is the only known branch of P312 Isaac's and is quite small and mainly limited to Devon. Though I don't really know if it would be considered Celtic.

Heber
09-17-2014, 10:03 PM
R1b-DF85 and it's subclade R1b-DF97 appears connected to Cenél Conaill surnames (Gallagher, O'Donnell, O'Doherty), that's under M222. The half-brother of the "O'Conor Don" is confirmed as R1b-M222+ thus linking the O'Connor's of Connacht (Uí Briúin Aí) to M222

R1b-L226 linked to the O'Brien's and other Dál gCais surnames. "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) has recently done BigY testing and is confirmed R1b-L226+.

R1b-CTS4466 linked to serveral surnames derived from the Eoghanacht of Munster (Irish Type II cluster) including McCarthy, Murphy and O'Mahoney.

R1b-L513 linked to Maguire and several related surnames of Fermanagh (Airgíalla II cluster) -- Maguires were Lords of Fermanagh until 1607
R1b-DF21 specifically S971/Z3017 linked to "Clann Colla" (Airgíalla I cluster) basically McMahon lordship of Monaghan during middle ages until the intentional execution of "The McMahon" by the Tudor state and the shiring of the lordship.

The seven "septs of Laois" appear to be R1b-DF21+ (O'Moore been one of prime families, a family also whose power was destroyed by the Tudor state)

R1b-Z255 (L159 is variable) appears linked to several "dynasts" within what could be classed as the Laighin (Laigin = old Irish) aka "Leinstermen", so O'Bryne, O'Toole, Kavanagh, Murphy etc.

R1b-DF27 (Z196-) appears connected to the O'Neill's of Ulster (who aren't thus M222) this ties in with lineage discussed in this document:
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

That's just some of the top of my head.

I agree with Pauls list and would add Ely O Carroll to R1b-DF21 above. This line has a genealogy going back to the 9th century and includes Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Signer of the US Declaration of Independence. A famous ascendant was OCearbhaill Mac Dunlainge who was King of Ossory and enemy of the Vikings. The most famous of the Cearbhaill's were the Ely O'Carroll's of Uíbh Fhailí (an ancient townland) which includes present day County Offaly and parts of Tipperary. They derived their name from Cearbhall, King of Ely (Éile), he was one of the leaders who fought and led the Elyans into battle with the victorious Brian Boru army at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-ely-o-carroll/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-midlands-surnames/

R1b-L226 includes the genealogy of The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin), which traces back to Brian Boru, whose Millennium we celebrate this year and the Battle of Clontarf.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z253/

R1b-CTS4466 includes the Cormac McCarthy Bishop King of Cashel, whose crypt is in the Rock of Cashel.

R1b-M222 are well represented by O Donnell, O Doherty, Kelly, O Connor

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/

A summary of the major subclades under L21 and their surname analysis can be found here.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

2631

There is still a lot of work to do in linking the vastly expanded Phylogenetic Tree under L21 to the 100+ detailed ancient genealogies.

2632

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534765828359/

Webb
09-18-2014, 01:02 PM
Jean, I believe the Dwyer/Ryan group is actually Z196-. However, very recently they have discovered a common snp below DF27 that this group shares and is now available for testing through FTDNA. I also think that L165 might be a good snp to look into as it largely is found amongst the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans. There has been much debate about this snp being of Norse origin. I at first assumed this was because it was also found in Norway and surrounding areas. However, after running through the various projects, there is very little of it found outside of the British Isles. In fact, outside of the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans the next largest cluster is found in England. It could make for an interesting argument, particularly, if the claim of Norse origin is more due to the oral tradition of both of these clans being gaelicized Norse.

Jean M
09-18-2014, 01:07 PM
Jean, I believe the Dwyer/Ryan group is actually Z196-.

Thanks.

I also think that L165 might be a good snp to look into as it largely is found amongst the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans. There has been much debate about this snp being of Norse origin. I at first assumed this was because it was also found in Norway and surrounding areas. However, after running through the various projects, there is very little of it found outside of the British Isles. In fact, outside of the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans the next largest cluster is found in England. It could make for an interesting argument, particularly, if the claim of Norse origin is more due to the oral tradition of both of these clans being gaelicized Norse.

I cover MacLeod here. I'm pretty convinced that it is Norse: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/surnames.shtml#MacLeod

Dubhthach
09-18-2014, 01:25 PM
Jean, I believe the Dwyer/Ryan group is actually Z196-. However, very recently they have discovered a common snp below DF27 that this group shares and is now available for testing through FTDNA. I also think that L165 might be a good snp to look into as it largely is found amongst the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans. There has been much debate about this snp being of Norse origin. I at first assumed this was because it was also found in Norway and surrounding areas. However, after running through the various projects, there is very little of it found outside of the British Isles. In fact, outside of the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans the next largest cluster is found in England. It could make for an interesting argument, particularly, if the claim of Norse origin is more due to the oral tradition of both of these clans being gaelicized Norse.

I was under impression that at least with the MacDonald's that the "norse component" within the "Clan" was reflective of R1a, namely R1a-L448 and subclade R1a-L176.1, the current McDonald "chief" supposedly been R1a tested (Warning -- I could be wrong on this)

Webb
09-18-2014, 03:14 PM
I was under impression that at least with the MacDonald's that the "norse component" within the "Clan" was reflective of R1a, namely R1a-L448 and subclade R1a-L176.1, the current McDonald "chief" supposedly been R1a tested (Warning -- I could be wrong on this)

Arsenault, Ayton, Beall/Bell, Bowie, Bronson, Buie of Jura, Cameron, Carmichael, Childress, Colclough, Gallie, Greenwade, Greenwald, Haag, Hammer, MacDonald, MacLennan, MacLeod, MacMillan of South Uist, MacNeils of Barra, MacPherson, Mayberry, Maybry, McGirt, McKinney, McLeod, McMillion, McMullin, McNeil, Ross, Terrill, Turrell, Tyrrel.

These are a list of the surnames who are currently in the L165 project. The MacDonalds in this list trace back to the sept of MacDonald from Caithness. Alastair MacDonald, who is one of the admins of the L165 project, has stated that when Dr. Wilson originally discovered this snp, it was found in Sweden, Norway and the Orkneys. Since then, another cluster emerged from the Western Isles of Scotland and another cluster in England. There are also singleton's from France, Germany, and Spain. Given that his is an snp below DF27 the instances of this snp in France, Spain, and Germany are not surprising. What is interesting is the number of Scottish Gaelic surnames in this project list, the number of English surnames in this project list, and the lack of Scandivanian surnames in this project list. I can not find out how many instances of this snp was found in Sweden and Norway, however.

rms2
09-19-2014, 04:11 PM
Well, I would bring up my own family surname, Stevens, but it's too common. Men bearing it belong to a number of different y haplogroups.

In my case, however, it appears to be Welsh and began as ap Stephen, i.e., son of Stephen, and belongs to the same category of Welsh patronymics as the similar surnames Williams, Jones, Roberts, Edwards, Davis, Hughes, Owens, etc.

dp
09-19-2014, 04:18 PM
I heard Powell was ap Howell. Since I match so few Powell's the thought occurred to me last weekend to see if any Howell's could confirm that they were at least z2961xM222.
PS: I wonder who Howell and Stephen were. They must have been some tough dudes to get families named after them
dp :-)


Well, I would bring up my own family surname, Stevens, but it's too common. Men bearing it belong to a number of different y haplogroups.

In my case, however, it appears to be Welsh and began as ap Stephen, i.e., son of Stephen, and belongs to the same category of Welsh patronymics as the similar surnames Williams, Jones, Roberts, Edwards, Davis, Hughes, Owens, etc.

rms2
09-19-2014, 04:24 PM
I heard Powell was ap Howell. Since I match so few Powell's the thought occurred to me last weekend to see if any Howell's could confirm that they were at least z2961xM222.
PS: I wonder who Howell and Stephen were. They must have been some tough dudes to get families named after them
dp :-)

I think they just lucked out and happened to be born on the cusp of Welsh surnames going from fully patronymic to permanent.

Yes, Powell was ap Hywel or ap Howell. That system plays havoc with y-dna matching, since a single relatively recent y-dna progenitor can have descendants with a number of different surnames.

dp
09-19-2014, 04:29 PM
Any idea how to say Hywel for Anglican ears :-) ?

Jean M
09-19-2014, 04:32 PM
Well, I would bring up my own family surname, Stevens, but it's too common. Men bearing it belong to a number of different y haplogroups. In my case, however, it appears to be Welsh and began as ap Stephen

Yes I thought your case was interesting.


That system plays havoc with y-dna matching, since a single relatively recent y-dna progenitor can have descendants with a number of different surnames.

That's exactly why I think it is a point worth making.

rms2
09-19-2014, 04:32 PM
Any idea how to say Hywel for Anglican ears :-) ?

Here it is:

Hywel (http://www.forvo.com/word/hywel/)

rms2
09-19-2014, 04:36 PM
Here it is:

Hywel (http://www.forvo.com/word/hywel/)

I found a better version right after my original post. It's that version that is reflected in the link above. I hope you got that one.

rms2
09-19-2014, 04:43 PM
Yes I thought your case was interesting.



That's exactly why I think it is a point worth making.

It confused me at first, especially a few years ago when a 65/67 match with a man named Beddoes showed up. At first I suspected some long lost NPE and that perhaps I was really a Beddoes. Then I realized what the real explanation was, which also explains my Price (ap Rhys) and Samuel matches.

dp
09-19-2014, 04:53 PM
Reminds me of the problems of use of the ibn (ben) in the Middle East; in other words Jesus may have been: Yeshua Ben Yosef.
I know it complicates our reseach because of the Fitz naming strategy, a son got as his last name his father's first name.
In my research I've noticed that in the early 1800s a Jr was not necessarily the son of a Sr, the former could have been a nephew.
dp :-)

razyn
09-19-2014, 05:45 PM
Any idea how to say Hywel for Anglican ears :-) ?

I certainly have an idea, and it arose in the context of the Forest of Dean (having a somewhat flexible border with SE Wales). I think Hiwoldestone in the Domesday Book (modern Hewelsfield, Glos) has something to do with it; and btw that my Y-DNA represents the quasi-Norman Hulin family of that area. The learned compilers of the FaNUK project, q.v., don't agree with my idea, however. I did share it with them, and was ignored, or one might say "corrected..." if one believed they were correct. They are academics, but then so am I.

Probably, a definitive answer will require ancient DNA.

Family Names of the United Kingdom (FaNUK)
The Bristol Centre for Linguistics
University of the West of England

dp
09-19-2014, 05:58 PM
Thanks for your post. I didn't realize that any surnames are being used that could have roots in such deep antiquity. Does Hiwold - Hewel - Hulin mean anything in particular? I have to check out FNUK sometime :-)
dp :-)

Jean M
09-19-2014, 06:18 PM
Does Hiwold - Hewel - Hulin mean anything in particular? I have to check out FNUK sometime :-)



Hywel: Welsh personal name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hywel . My Welsh is non-existent, but online sources say that it means "eminent" in Welsh.
Hulin has a different origin entirely, according to Reaney and Wilson. It is one of the surnames derived from Hugolin (the Norman diminutive of Hugo.) Hugo is of Germanic origin, meaning 'intelligent' or 'bright' I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_%28name%29
Hiwold is different again, derived from the Old English personal name Hygewald, according to the place-names book I have by me. I suspect that this is what those tiresome place-name experts told Razyn. English place-name experts have been known to ignore a possible Celtic etymology in favour of an OE one. But in this case the place-name in DB has an OE ending, so it would be pretty odd to have a Welsh personal name attached.

dp
09-19-2014, 06:31 PM
well it sounds like Hywel OR Hulin both would be nice names to have :-)

It's like my "eure" in my signature. I think it's middle english usage related etymological to (L.) augury, ie. fortune, luck, etc, would make a lot more sense for a surname to derive from than what is usually alledged by associating it with (L.) agua via ewer being a vessel to carry water in. I mean that makes Ewer's sound like slaves bringing some Roman overlord a fresh drink of water. I know 1/3rd of the people in occidental lands were Roman slaves but I'd rather not think that such was carried 1500 years later in their descendants surnames. Mind you I like the name of Shadout Mapes in the "Dune" trilogy as meaning water-bearer, but that's not for this thread :-)
dp

razyn
09-19-2014, 07:46 PM
I suspect that this is what those tiresome place-name experts told Razyn. English place-name experts have been known to ignore a possible Celtic etymology in favour of an OE one. But in this case the place-name in DB has an OE ending, so it would be pretty odd to have a Welsh personal name attached.

Once upon a time I aspired to be a tiresome expert, but changed my mind. Anyway, FWIW, Hewelsfield is a few hundred yards from the Welsh border, and belonged to Tintern Abbey (after there was one) in nearby Wales. I think people who could throw a rock across the Wye might have heard of Hywel Dda, or his various sons who had lately been the rulers on the other end of their fish traps. Just sayin', sometimes experts don't look up from the pages of their books -- which were perhaps written in Oxford or some such place, well removed from the relevant ethnolinguistic scene. It does of course depend on the expert. I don't really question the (pretty impressive) evidence in the FaNUK entry for Hulin; but to some extent I do still question whether most of it is pertinent to the local Hulin family there (anciently of St. Briavels, a church and a small Norman castle about a mile from Hewelsfield). Maybe.

And nor is it proven that the Hulins (variously spelled) of 17th century VA descend from the St. Briavels family. But my closest genetic (SNP) matches in the UK do cluster in that area -- several surnames, from both sides of the Bristol Channel. That's another maybe: maybe I have a dog in this fight, and maybe not. If I were absolutely sure that was my family, I'd probably care more about what the tiresome experts say.

Jean M
09-19-2014, 08:09 PM
Hewelsfield is a few hundred yards from the Welsh border, and belonged to Tintern Abbey (after there was one) in nearby Wales. I think people who could throw a rock across the Wye might have heard of Hywel Dda, or his various sons who had lately been the rulers on the other end of their fish traps..

Very likely, but the formation of place-names tends to be a lot more prosaic, I'm afraid. Place-names that are compounds of personal name and some word like tun (OE meaning farmstead) or field, generally reflect the person who once lived/farmed there. Royal lands have other types of designation, both in England and Wales. (Something like King's Barton for England. For Wales see http://www.buildinghistory.org/trefi.shtml ). Since royal lands descend from monarch to monarch they don't get named for a particular monarch.



sometimes experts don't look up from the pages of their books -- which were perhaps written in Oxford or some such place, well removed from the relevant ethnolinguistic scene.

The series of volumes produced by the English Place-Name Society are published by county. Their authors are very familiar with the local geography and include field names even. I have to admit that I do not have the volume for Gloucestershire by me, but there is http://kepn.nottingham.ac.uk/map/place/Gloucestershire/Hewelsfield

rms2
09-19-2014, 08:28 PM
There is a 12-marker y-dna test in the FTDNA oven right now that has me on pins and needles. I managed to locate the y-dna descendant of a Welsh immigrant to Pennsylvania named Evan Stephens (Evan ap Stephen) and convinced him to allow me to sponsor his y-dna test. He even agreed to any upgrades I deem necessary (as long as I pay for them) up front. There is no guarantee this Evan Stephens is my ancestor, but a number of his sons went from Bucks County, PA, to Fayette County, PA, in the 1700s, and a couple of my Stevens matches have mdkas who were born in Fayette County. My own mdka was born just a hop, skip and a jump down the road in Wheeling, West Virginia (about 50 miles west of Fayette County).

If this man matches us (i.e., I and my circle of Stevens/Stephens matches), we plan to jump him right up to 111 markers.

Do things that good actually happen?

2641

rivergirl
09-20-2014, 02:07 AM
I am currently working on a book on the Celts to be published next year. I am keen to include some success stories in linking subclades of P312 to specific surnames. I had in mind:

[LIST]
R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser
.

Hi Jean,
I'm not sure how strong the L144/Wales connection is.
Out of all the men with the L144 SNP and the 413=16 haplotype, we only have one family from Wales, Prosser, who all appear to descended from 1 migrant to America.
We have not seen any other Welsh family/surname connected to L144 as yet.

There are many more singleton English, Scottish and North Ireland/Scots surnames who are L144 or have the same Haplotyope.

I am not sure as yet how the L144 group fit in with the broader CTS1751 group. There is one possible Welsh, Griffith, who tested CTS1751 at 23and me, who is retesting at FTDNA.

Here is link to the goggle map I have made of CTS1751 and L144 men with known UK/European place of origin;
http://goo.gl/maps/2hYk

Jean M
09-20-2014, 09:43 AM
Here is link to the goggle map I have made of CTS1751 and L144 men with known UK/European place of origin;
http://goo.gl/maps/2hYk

That is very helpful. I'm working on that bit of the text now.

jbarry6899
09-20-2014, 08:07 PM
Jean,

I'm not sure how widely you are casting your net, or how broadly you are defining Celtic, but we have a group of 18 men with the Anglo-Norman surname Barry, or its close southern American variant, Berry, who are R1b-Z49. I have tested S8183+ and the others may be as well; I'm currently awaiting Big Y results. The majority have Cork roots.

We also have a group of 9 Barry men, mainly from Limerick, who are R1b-L159. They may be Anglo-Norman, or possibly Irish O'Beare (or the result of an old NPE). We may know more once we have completed our project to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore. Shameless promotion: We are within a few hundred dollars/euros of our funding goal and would welcome contributions. See: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/

Jim

Dave-V
09-20-2014, 11:15 PM
And I'm not sure how you're defining "success stories", but the Vance surname’s origins were partly validated through L21/L193.

Regardless of what MacLysagh says, the paper trail of the Ulster surname "Vance" is back to a Scottish Vans line of minor nobility with a lineage back to medieval Norman origins. And a large group of Vances (mostly US) with Irish origins has tested into L193 right beside the current scion of the Vans line (current Laird of Barnbarroch), thereby proving at least that much of the origin story.

Whether the line really has Norman origins of course remains to be proven, since L193 is so widespread around Scottish surnames that a local Scottish origin is more likely (at least for the Y-line). It could in theory still be a case of one L193 line escaping Scotland and returning, but there's no real suggestion of that yet. The NGS SNP mapping has a real chance of giving us a better ability to break it all down.

interestingly the other major group of Vances in L21 is L513*. Most analysis says the two lines diverged earlier than the two Norman knights who came over in 1066 and (presumably) started the Vans line, but it's tantalizingly close. However, a connection there doesn't really account for the rest of L193, so the more likely conclusion is that we have a case of what I'll call "surname convergence" as the L513* line came into the surname (and that's my line, so I'm not biased here:-) ).

None of that relates to the Celts, of course...

Dave

Heber
09-21-2014, 10:24 PM
Here are some examples below L21 including

Ely O Carroll DF21
Dal Cais L226
Cenell Conaill DF85
Eoganachta C4466
Connachta M222
Dal Riada M222
Gallowglass M222
Stewart DF41

2651

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

rms2
09-22-2014, 03:57 PM
Here are some examples below L21 including

Ely O Carroll DF21
Dal Cais L226
Cenell Conaill DF85
Eoganachta C4466
Connachta M222
Dal Riada M222
Gallowglass M222
Stewart DF41

2651

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

Thanks for bringing up the Stewarts, Gerard. That would be a good one for the book, perhaps.

That is one royal y-dna line whose y haplogroup has definitely been confirmed. Jim Wilson of ScotlandsDNA tested Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, a direct y-dna descendant of Charles II, and confirmed that he is DF41+ (S524+). Of course, the Stewarts are also L745+, and there have been further refinements, dividing the Stewarts into two lines. The one descended from Sir John Stewart of Bonkyll, who was killed in 1298 fighting alongside William Wallace at the Battle of Falkirk, is positive for the SNP S781. The other, descended from his brother James, the 5th High Steward of Scotland, is S781-.

Royal Scotland, Royal Stewart (http://www.britainsdna.com/files/press-release/Press%20Release:%20Royal%20Scotland%20Royal%20Stew art%20%5BBritainsDNA%2028-02-2014%5D.pdf)

rms2
09-27-2014, 02:47 PM
There is a 12-marker y-dna test in the FTDNA oven right now that has me on pins and needles. I managed to locate the y-dna descendant of a Welsh immigrant to Pennsylvania named Evan Stephens (Evan ap Stephen) and convinced him to allow me to sponsor his y-dna test. He even agreed to any upgrades I deem necessary (as long as I pay for them) up front. There is no guarantee this Evan Stephens is my ancestor, but a number of his sons went from Bucks County, PA, to Fayette County, PA, in the 1700s, and a couple of my Stevens matches have mdkas who were born in Fayette County. My own mdka was born just a hop, skip and a jump down the road in Wheeling, West Virginia (about 50 miles west of Fayette County).

If this man matches us (i.e., I and my circle of Stevens/Stephens matches), we plan to jump him right up to 111 markers.

Do things that good actually happen?

2641

This 12-marker result was due 25 September. When it did not arrive on time, I emailed FTDNA and was told that the result has been "delayed slightly due to lab volume" and should come in about 3-4 weeks. Groan!

I hate waiting!

I want the truth, but I must admit I'll be bummed if we don't match.

sparkey
09-30-2014, 03:51 PM
Jean, I'm curious if you're interested in branching out from R1b-P312 subclades to subclades of other haplogroups associated with Celts. An obvious one is I2-M223>M284, which very likely predates the Celts in Britain, and therefore would have been carried by Celtic language speakers during the Anglo-Saxon arrivals. Some interesting families have tested as I2-M223>M284, including: a close paternal relative of the Duke of Hamilton; a claimed descendant of Sir Henry Clinton (of American War of Independence fame) and therefore a likely relative of the Earls of Lincoln and most of the Dukes of Newcastle; and members of the New England Luce family that produced Henry Luce, founder of Time Magazine.

Other I2 subclades can be difficult to parse, but I know that Hans De Beule has argued for a Celtic connection to I2-L38, and I've observed I2c-PF3881 to follow similar geographic patterns to I2-L38. I2-M26 is too old to have a connection to Celts in particular, but certain subclades might have been present in Celtic-speaking populations at one time or another, as well.

Jean M
09-30-2014, 04:55 PM
An obvious one is I2-M223>M284, which very likely predates the Celts in Britain, and therefore would have been carried by Celtic language speakers during the Anglo-Saxon arrivals. Some interesting families have tested as I2-M223>M284, including: a close paternal relative of the Duke of Hamilton; a claimed descendant of Sir Henry Clinton (of American War of Independence fame) and therefore a likely relative of the Earls of Lincoln and most of the Dukes of Newcastle; and members of the New England Luce family that produced Henry Luce, founder of Time Magazine.

Thanks Sparkey. I am indeed including I2a2a1a (M284). I've started another thread on that, to keep it on the right forum: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3241-Draft-M284-section-in-Celts-book&p=53837#post53837

pabiggin
10-07-2014, 09:15 PM
Jean,

Dwyer/Ryan DNA has the A641 SNP (among others), not Z196. See: Dwyer/Ryan DNA (http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm).

Peter Biggins

Kwheaton
10-08-2014, 12:12 AM
Jean,

I have that Royal Stewart line in my background. Another one in my family is the FRANKLIN line. You can see it on the R-L21 Big Tree. http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html And it is interesting that the closest matches are the MacFarlanes and Blacks. (The Faust is an NPE and part of the FRANKLIN Project). I suspect that this close connection is indicative of the FRANKLIN Origins.

Also part of the large group of R-M222 DF97 through my PADEN family. This one definitely leads back to SW Scotland and has strong connections with McKee, Keith, McCord, McHarg etc.

Kelly

Jean M
10-08-2014, 12:30 AM
Thanks to all for comments, corrections and suggestions. I will be writing that section over the next day or two.

rms2
10-08-2014, 10:56 PM
There is a 12-marker y-dna test in the FTDNA oven right now that has me on pins and needles. I managed to locate the y-dna descendant of a Welsh immigrant to Pennsylvania named Evan Stephens (Evan ap Stephen) and convinced him to allow me to sponsor his y-dna test. He even agreed to any upgrades I deem necessary (as long as I pay for them) up front. There is no guarantee this Evan Stephens is my ancestor, but a number of his sons went from Bucks County, PA, to Fayette County, PA, in the 1700s, and a couple of my Stevens matches have mdkas who were born in Fayette County. My own mdka was born just a hop, skip and a jump down the road in Wheeling, West Virginia (about 50 miles west of Fayette County).

If this man matches us (i.e., I and my circle of Stevens/Stephens matches), we plan to jump him right up to 111 markers.

Do things that good actually happen?

2641

My recruit got his 12-marker results today. To make a long story short, not only do we not match, but apparently he belongs to y-haplogroup I-M253.

The details appear here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2356-Map-of-Surname-Matches&p=54660&viewfull=1#post54660), if you're interested.

Still brickwalled in the Pittsburgh area! Go Steelers!

Jean M
10-10-2014, 04:00 PM
Ok folks. In the surnames section I have gone for:


R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
L226/S168: O'Brien, Dalcassian
R1b-L745/S463: Stewart


Fitted in elsewhere:

R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser

Thanks for all your help.

Heber
10-10-2014, 04:52 PM
Ok folks. In the surnames section I have gone for:


R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
L226/S168: O'Brien, Dalcassian
R1b-L745/S463: Stewart


Fitted in elsewhere:

R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser

Thanks for all your help.

Jean,

Further detail on the L226 result following Big Y Testing.

"On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]> wrote:

Yesterday 19 results from the branching SNP under L226, FGC5628 came in.

33% were -ve and 67% were +ve showing this is a significant branch under L226. We are still waiting for the results of a further 8 x FGC5628 tests.
The results from the second branching SNP, DC1, are still to come in and 20 men have ordered this SNP.

The final piece of good news is that the Big-Y results for Sir Conor O'Brien, Chief of the Clan, have been received, which shows there is a FURTHER branch in the L226 below DC1, a SNP called YFS231286.

A further block has been added to the Z253 Tree
R-L226 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/L226%20BigY%20Analysis.xlsx
Z253 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/Z253%20BigY%20Novel.xlsx

Eleven further R-L226 Big-Y results are expected from orders placed with the Father' Day sale.
How many further branches will Big-Y reveal?

--
Dennis Wright
Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir
Irish Type III R-L226
"We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes."

Jean M
10-10-2014, 05:03 PM
Thanks Heber. I have contacted Dennis Wright.

David Mc
10-11-2014, 02:43 AM
I know you're tracking this already, Jean, but if it turns out that one of the Iron Age Britons is, in fact, DF21, and given that he is likely Belgic, this introduces some interesting lines of inquiry regarding Irish DF21. I'm not fond of over-identifying particular groups with particular subclades, but it does make you wonder if there are solid genetic grounds for seeing Belgic migrations into Ireland.

Jean M
10-11-2014, 10:23 AM
I know you're tracking this already, Jean, but if it turns out that one of the Iron Age Britons is, in fact, DF21, and given that he is likely Belgic, this introduces some interesting lines of inquiry regarding Irish DF21. I'm not fond of over-identifying particular groups with particular subclades, but it does make you wonder if there are solid genetic grounds for seeing Belgic migrations into Ireland.

I'm not rushing to conclusions on this one. I'm not totally convinced of a Belgic identification for a start. I'm not sure what is going on with these three burials intruding into the cremation cemetery. It is very frustrating I know. We finally get some ancient Y-DNA from an Insular Celt and it opens up yet more questions! It is just the beginning of what will be a long process of sorting things out.

The debate over Belgae in Ireland in so complex and inconclusive that I have chickened out of it in the coming book.