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mammothR1
09-22-2014, 03:57 AM
I am new to this and looking for some advice on my R-Z195 test results. I haven't found any others with this combo, so any help is appreciated. Oldest known ancestor is from England in the 1600s

I'm listed as R-Z195 on FTDNA (from Geno 2.0 transfer, which shows Z198 btw), under P312 (with DF27 not shown on FTDNA, but in between the two right?). However, I have tested negative for everything else it seems: Z295, Z220, SRY2627, L165, CTS4188, and PF6913, as well as Z274, Z210, and CTS7768. FTDNA also shows 'presumed negative' for U106, L21, L194, U152, Z225, and DF19, among others...

Trying to find more info on this Z195 branch if I can. Are there any other specific tests I can take that will get me further into my research? I don't see anything listed on FTDNA other than the L176 SNP test, which is listed under Z195, although everything listed under it, as well as the Z274 branch, show the 'tested negative', for my results...

ArmandoR1b
09-22-2014, 12:47 PM
Z198 and L176.2 are on the same level. You will be positive for L176 if you test for it. You should join the SRY2627/L176.2/Z198 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

Since L165, Z262, CTS4188 are included in the Geno 2.0 test you belong in the group L. L176.2+ or Z198+ SRY2627- L165- Z262- CTS4188-

You can ask the admins if any of them have ordered the BigY or FullGenomes test.

Stephen Parrish
09-22-2014, 02:58 PM
Z198 and L176.2 are on the same level. You will be positive for L176 if you test for it. You should join the SRY2627/L176.2/Z198 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

Since L165, Z262, CTS4188 are included in the Geno 2.0 test you belong in the group L. L176.2+ or Z198+ SRY2627- L165- Z262- CTS4188-

You can ask the admins if any of them have ordered the BigY or FullGenomes test.

Armando -

I have ordered the Big Y and Full Genomes tests.

Stephen

mammothR1
09-22-2014, 05:11 PM
I am a member of that group, kit N115425. I ordered the Y-111 kit last week, not sure if they are sending a new sample kit or not, but I should have results and get listed on the STR pages soon, I hope.

So I am R1b.... P312 > DF27 > Z195 > L176.2/Z198 confirmed? Can I take more tests to get more specific now? And what does the Big Y or FullGenomes tests help me with at this stage? Sounds interesting...

Also, are there any maps or timeframes associated with this branch? I believe DF27 migrated to the Iberian Peninsula ~2000 BCE and am guessing Z195 went by boat up through the British Isles areas in ~1800 BCE?

Thanks!

*Edit: per the latest R1b-DF27 Phylogenetic Tree dated July 23, 2013, I have crossed off almost everything under Z195 as being tested negative for, except for Z262 I believe, although I tested negative for SRY2627 and Z207 which are listed under Z262. Also L147.3.. Should I test for Z262 or L147.3? Or is there a more recent chart available that anyone knows of? I tried to link to it but I can't find it again, and the image upload said too large

ArmandoR1b
09-22-2014, 08:55 PM
I am a member of that group, kit N115425. I ordered the Y-111 kit last week, not sure if they are sending a new sample kit or not, but I should have results and get listed on the STR pages soon, I hope.

So I am R1b.... P312 > DF27 > Z195 > L176.2/Z198 confirmed? Can I take more tests to get more specific now? And what does the Big Y or FullGenomes tests help me with at this stage? Sounds interesting...

Also, are there any maps or timeframes associated with this branch? I believe DF27 migrated to the Iberian Peninsula ~2000 BCE and am guessing Z195 went by boat up through the British Isles areas in ~1800 BCE?

Thanks!

*Edit: per the latest R1b-DF27 Phylogenetic Tree dated July 23, 2013, I have crossed off almost everything under Z195 as being tested negative for, except for Z262 I believe, although I tested negative for SRY2627 and Z207 which are listed under Z262. Also L147.3.. Should I test for Z262 or L147.3? Or is there a more recent chart available that anyone knows of? I tried to link to it but I can't find it again, and the image upload said too large

I had missed 147.3. There are only two people that have tested positive for that marker. It isn't in the 2014 ISOGG tree either http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

It isn't in the YFull tree either http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2a1b/

You can order L147 to remove doubt but you will probably be negative for it.

Z262 was tested by Geno 2.0 per the Chris Morley PDF found at http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny but I hadn't realized until today that everybody that took the Geno 2.0 test shows to be positive for it. Your raw DNA will show TT for Z262 meaning that is positive.

So L147 and Z262 are SNP markers you can order after all. Good catch.

If you are negative for L147 and Z262 then you will be R1b.... P312 > DF27 > Z195 > L176.2/Z198 confirmed according to the ISOGG and FTDNA trees.

We still aren't sure when DF27 first appeared or where. It will take a lot of Next Generation Sequencing test results and some ancient DNA to get a better idea of the age and areas it occupied when it first appeared.

The BigY and FullGenomes tests are what are called NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) tests that are made to discover novel SNPs and private SNPs. The cost is the biggest factor prohibiting more people from ordering the test. If more than one person with your known subclade gets an NGS test then you will have someone to compare plus you'll be able to compare your results with someone like Stephen Parrish who belongs in the SRY2627 tree. See CTS4299 at http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-SRY2627/ for Stephen's subclade.

mammothR1
09-22-2014, 11:19 PM
If everyone is positive for Z262 then it probably shouldn't be listed under L176.2 then right, rather something more generic?? Or?

I almost missed L147.3 as well, but it is on the graphical chart I have, that I guess someone made of the ISOGG tree. Speaking of which, it is dated July 2013. Is there a place to find new/recent charts in graphical form? I may try to make a new one and upload it soon if I can'f find any. Thank you for those links, YFull is new to me. Seems like a few different versions/opinions on placement for some of these subclades... YFull doesn't seem to list L147, that I can tell.

I will have to look into these Next Generation Sequencing options, as well as keep a look out for interesting ancient DNA tests and results from this area and time period.

Now that I am getting familiar with how to interpret these DNA results, I guess I am in the same boat as everyone else at this point - waiting for others to take tests and publish results that we can compare, as well as waiting on more ancient DNA studies to relate the results to huh? Makes me want to change my profession if that's the case!

DavidCar
09-23-2014, 06:05 AM
If everyone is positive for Z262 then it probably shouldn't be listed under L176.2 then right, rather something more generic?? Or?

...

The Geno2 test returns a Z262+ for everyone. There are enough non-Geno2 Z262 tests to show that it is under L176.2.

There are a few Z198+ kits that are positive for A477 and A478. These are available from YSEQ.net

Stephen Parrish
09-23-2014, 06:25 PM
I am a member of that group, kit N115425. I ordered the Y-111 kit last week, not sure if they are sending a new sample kit or not, but I should have results and get listed on the STR pages soon, I hope.

So I am R1b.... P312 > DF27 > Z195 > L176.2/Z198 confirmed? Can I take more tests to get more specific now? And what does the Big Y or FullGenomes tests help me with at this stage? Sounds interesting...

Also, are there any maps or timeframes associated with this branch? I believe DF27 migrated to the Iberian Peninsula ~2000 BCE and am guessing Z195 went by boat up through the British Isles areas in ~1800 BCE?

Thanks!

*Edit: per the latest R1b-DF27 Phylogenetic Tree dated July 23, 2013, I have crossed off almost everything under Z195 as being tested negative for, except for Z262 I believe, although I tested negative for SRY2627 and Z207 which are listed under Z262. Also L147.3.. Should I test for Z262 or L147.3? Or is there a more recent chart available that anyone knows of? I tried to link to it but I can't find it again, and the image upload said too large

Please wait until Family Tree DNA introduces, in less than three weeks, its Deep Clade 2.0 test before testing more SNPs. If that test's price is reasonable, it will usually be less expensive per SNP than the cost of testing individual SNPs.

Stephen

ArmandoR1b
09-23-2014, 09:22 PM
Please wait until Family Tree DNA introduces, in less than three weeks, its Deep Clade 2.0 test before testing more SNPs. If that test's price is reasonable, it will usually be less expensive per SNP than the cost of testing individual SNPs.

Stephen

Less than three weeks? That's great news. I knew it was planned on being released but I hadn't seen an approximate date until now. Thanks for the info.

DavidCar
09-24-2014, 02:47 AM
Please wait until Family Tree DNA introduces, in less than three weeks, its Deep Clade 2.0 test before testing more SNPs. If that test's price is reasonable, it will usually be less expensive per SNP than the cost of testing individual SNPs.

Stephen

Great advice generally, but the Z198+ / SRY2627- region is relatively uncharted, and there may not be any snps from that region in Deep Clade 2 that are recognized by FTDNA outside of Z262 and L147. A BigY test could break new ground, but like many such tests in P312, it could take years for a comparable person to come along.

mammothR1
10-10-2014, 06:43 AM
It looks like they can use my old sample for my Y-111 test at FTDNA. Can't want to see my results posted on all the Projects I have joined. Should only be a month or so now... B)

Has there been any ancient DNA samples that have tested positive for R1b-DF27, or anything below it, that anyone knows of?

Mark D
10-10-2014, 01:24 PM
Great advice generally, but the Z198+ / SRY2627- region is relatively uncharted, and there may not be any snps from that region in Deep Clade 2 that are recognized by FTDNA outside of Z262 and L147. A BigY test could break new ground, but like many such tests in P312, it could take years for a comparable person to come along.

As one of only two men who tested positive for L147.3, I would love to have company! But I understand that this SNP, from my Deed Clade test with FTDNA some years ago is not reliable and has been removed from the ISOGG tree. Nevertheless, the Big Y test I took included this SNP as a positive, as well as 31 other novel variants with this one other gentleman; so there must be something there! I'm also waiting to see what will be offered with Deep Clade 2, but the SNPs from Big Y will keep our experts, including David busy for a long time. Big Y may still offer more SNP resolution than what FTDNA has in store, but we'll wait and see.

mammothR1
10-10-2014, 01:35 PM
Here is an interesting site in Iberia that was recently found, and would be interesting to see their DNA results; they are dating the site to 2,200-1,550 BCE.

Multiple skeletons have been found at the "Spanish site of La Almoloya, located in Pliego, Murcia. The site represents the cradle of the Bronze Age “El Argar” civilization, who dominated the south-eastern part of the Iberian Peninsula..."

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/10/2014/bronze-age-palace-discovered-in-southern-spain

Stephen Parrish
10-10-2014, 04:59 PM
Great advice generally, but the Z198+ / SRY2627- region is relatively uncharted, and there may not be any snps from that region in Deep Clade 2 that are recognized by FTDNA outside of Z262 and L147. A BigY test could break new ground, but like many such tests in P312, it could take years for a comparable person to come along.

It appears that Z198+ and the insert/deletion L176.2+ are indeed phylogenetically equivalent. Z292+ appears to be between Z198+ and Z262+.

Stephen

Mike McG
10-10-2014, 05:52 PM
MammothR1

There maybe a few individuals on the R1b-DF27 BigY summary spreadsheet in the DF27 yahoo group. They show being ZS312+ and split further between A477/8+ and L147+. See what you think. I believe the FTDNA ID are there so you can compare to your Y DNA STR test if you can find their project.

Mike McG

Stephen Parrish
10-11-2014, 04:43 PM
MammothR1

There maybe a few individuals on the R1b-DF27 BigY summary spreadsheet in the DF27 yahoo group. They show being ZS312+ and split further between A477/8+ and L147+. See what you think. I believe the FTDNA ID are there so you can compare to your Y DNA STR test if you can find their project.

Mike McG

Mike -

Although A477+ and A478+ are under Z198+, they are not present in SRY2627+ individuals.

I am not certain of ZS312+'s placement with respect to A477+, A478+, and Z198+. I do not see ZS312+ in L165+ individuals, and I know that L165+ and SRY2627+ are under Z198+. (Update: subject to review, ZS312+ appears to be either phylogenetically equivalent to Z262+ or Z262+ just is downstream from ZS312+, and it appears that ZS312+ is downstream from Z198+.)

Stephen

Mike McG
10-11-2014, 10:09 PM
Mike -

Although A477+ and A478+ are under Z198+, they are not present in SRY2627+ individuals.

I am not certain of ZS312+'s placement with respect to A477+, A478+, and Z198+. I do not see ZS312+ in L165+ individuals, and I know that L165+ and SRY2627+ are under Z198+. (Update: subject to review, ZS312+ appears to be either phylogenetically equivalent to Z262+ or Z262+ just is downstream from ZS312+, and it appears that ZS312+ is downstream from Z198+.)

Stephen

Thanks, yes, I thought I understood from the first post that MammothR1 was SRY2627-. I was looking at David Carlisle's BigY D27 79 rj spreadsheet, specifically columns U through Z and thought it may have been worthwhile for MammothR1 to compare his STRs with those of these individuals.

YBrowse shows SNPs ZS312, M7953, and Y964 at ChrY:9142914 with the mutation G to A. However YBrowse also shows Y964 as being in hg J so perhaps it it not reliable.

Mike McG

Stephen Parrish
10-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Thanks, yes, I thought I understood from the first post that MammothR1 was SRY2627-. I was looking at David Carlisle's BigY D27 79 rj spreadsheet, specifically columns U through Z and thought it may have been worthwhile for MammothR1 to compare his STRs with those of these individuals.

YBrowse shows SNPs ZS312, M7953, and Y964 at ChrY:9142914 with the mutation G to A. However YBrowse also shows Y964 as being in hg J so perhaps it it not reliable.

Mike McG

Mike -

Thank you for mentioning that Y964, according to Ybrowse, is in haplogroup J. Although I do not see Y964 in haplogroup J on YFull's experimental haplotree (version 2.24), what you mentioned suggests that ZS312+/Y964+/M7953+ might be recurrent.

To add to my reply to your previous post, I do not yet know whether CTS4188+ individuals have ZS312+; CTS4188+ is parallel to SRY2627+ and L165+.

Stephen

mammothR1
10-17-2014, 04:01 PM
2752

According to the 2013 "Origins of R-M269 Diversity in Europe" PDF from Family Tree DNA (https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/docs/2013/Hammer_M269_Diversity_in_Europe.pdf), this image shows SRY2627 migrating into the Iberian Peninsula after Z195 from modern-day central France...

Since I am SRY2627- (also presumed U106-, L21-, U152-), can I assume my line was in Central/Western/NW France before spreading elsewhere, towards Britain & the Isles, after the L21 migration apparently?

It looks like R1b-Z195 originated ~4000-4500 years ago in modern day France according to current charts, correct?

razyn
10-17-2014, 06:59 PM
2752
It looks like R1b-Z195 originated ~4000-4500 years ago in modern day France according to current charts, correct?

That's probably a correct interpretation of "current charts," but they are themselves still debatable. For example, the ones that call it Z195 (instead of Z196 -- the same bunch of guys, though), and omit DF27 altogether, have arisen since FTDNA made its bed with NatGeo, and for purposes of publication went along with the deeply flawed hypothesis that if it didn't work on the Geno2 chip, it probably wasn't very important anyhow.

We've known better, on this and a few other forums, for a couple of years. The big corporations and the academic press will catch up to 2014, eventually -- but by then we'll be in whatever mode of discovery and revision the near-term future holds. (One hopes that that will keep happening in 2015, 2016, etc.)

Even I would agree that Z195 was probably in modern day France before it was in Asturias, or whatever other Atlantic-facing Z195 stronghold one may pick after testing today's population. I rather doubt that Z195, or DF27, or P312, or L11 was born in western Europe. But I'm willing to be persuaded. At some level, the tree has clearly branched in the west -- we are just haggling over the details of which branching event happened where. The best evidence for settling these arguments is in some old bones that have yet to be analyzed.

mammothR1
10-19-2014, 11:33 PM
Please wait until Family Tree DNA introduces, in less than three weeks, its Deep Clade 2.0 test before testing more SNPs. If that test's price is reasonable, it will usually be less expensive per SNP than the cost of testing individual SNPs.


Great advice generally, but the Z198+ / SRY2627- region is relatively uncharted, and there may not be any snps from that region in Deep Clade 2 that are recognized by FTDNA outside of Z262 and L147. A BigY test could break new ground, but like many such tests in P312, it could take years for a comparable person to come along.


As one of only two men who tested positive for L147.3, I would love to have company! But I understand that this SNP, from my Deed Clade test with FTDNA some years ago is not reliable and has been removed from the ISOGG tree. Nevertheless, the Big Y test I took included this SNP as a positive, as well as 31 other novel variants with this one other gentleman; so there must be something there! I'm also waiting to see what will be offered with Deep Clade 2, but the SNPs from Big Y will keep our experts, including David busy for a long time. Big Y may still offer more SNP resolution than what FTDNA has in store, but we'll wait and see.

I'm not sure if FTDNA updated their website again, but on the page after you log in, I now notice the "Big Y" DNA Test graphic on the lower left (https://my.familytreedna.com/big-y.aspx). I don't see anything advertised for the Deep Clade 2 test yet, unless this is it? Or maybe I'm jumping the gun on that? I think it's been just over 3 weeks. The Big Y says it tests over 25,000 SNPs... but are there any in that test that will benefit me at this point? That test is currently $575 :\ Or should I still wait for the Deep Clade 2 test instead? My Y-111 STR test should be completed in the next month or so, which I am waiting on before looking at other options, but I was curious which option I should be considering next..

mammothR1
10-20-2014, 01:45 PM
You can order L147 to remove doubt but you will probably be negative for it.

Z262 was tested by Geno 2.0 per the Chris Morley PDF found at http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny but I hadn't realized until today that everybody that took the Geno 2.0 test shows to be positive for it. Your raw DNA will show TT for Z262 meaning that is positive.

So L147 and Z262 are SNP markers you can order after all. Good catch.

If you are negative for L147 and Z262 then you will be R1b.... P312 > DF27 > Z195 > L176.2/Z198 confirmed according to the ISOGG and FTDNA trees.


Here are how my results currently stack up on ISOGG.org, as of 10/20/2014:

> P312
>>> DF27
>>> >>> Z195
>>> >>> >>> Z220
>>> >>> >>> >>> Z278
>>> >>> >>> S228/Z198, L176.2/S179.2
>>> >>> >>> >>> S460/Z292
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Z262
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> M167/SRY2627
>>> >>> >>> >>> L165
>>> >>> >>> >>> CTS4188

Red = I tested negative for it, Green = positive; Does this mean I should test for Z262, as well as S460 and Z292 when/if FTDNA offers it? Or should I look for a different testing facility for those?

ArmandoR1b
10-20-2014, 03:50 PM
The Deep Clade 2.0 hasn't been released. What was supposed to be a release was an announcement that emails would go out to admins of haplogroup and subclade projects and that they would have to create panels of 30-90 SNPs that don't include palindromic SNPs, and so on. The emails just went out on Friday. I have no idea how long until the panel will be released. For some details on some of that info see http://dna-explained.com/2014/10/15/tenth-annual-family-tree-dna-conference-wrapup/

I don't know if any new markers have been discovered between S228/Z198, L176.2/S179.2 and M167/SRY2627. If not then the Deep Clade 2.0/Panel test won't benefit you because you would end up paying more for the test that it would cost you to test L147, Z262 and if necessary Z292 . YFull doesn't show any new SNP markers http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2a1b/

After looking at the BigY spreadsheet located at the Yahoo DF27 group there are 6 that are L176.2 and none of them are Z292+ or Z262+ and two are CTS4188+ so I don't know if that would be beneficial to you at the moment. Two of the are L147 though. If you do decide to get the BigY test wait for a sale and look for a $100 coupon that someone is willing to share with you.

If you want to order the L147 and Z262 tests they can be ordered at FTDNA by going to https://www.familytreedna.com/upgrades.aspx?ot=ADV&category=SNP

If you turn out to be positive for Z262 there won't be a need to order Z292.

Stephen Parrish
11-02-2014, 05:56 PM
Mike -

Although A477+ and A478+ are under Z198+, they are not present in SRY2627+ individuals.

I am not certain of ZS312+'s placement with respect to A477+, A478+, and Z198+. I do not see ZS312+ in L165+ individuals, and I know that L165+ and SRY2627+ are under Z198+. (Update: subject to review, ZS312+ appears to be either phylogenetically equivalent to Z262+ or Z262+ just is downstream from ZS312+, and it appears that ZS312+ is downstream from Z198+.)

Stephen

Addendum: subject to review, it appears to me that ZS312+ is phylogenetically equivalent to R-Z292+, which recently appeared on ISOGG's tree upstream from R-Z262.

cderory
08-26-2015, 09:38 PM
I'm french and all my known ancestors were french.
Today, I have my FGC Elite 2.0 results with R-Z195:

Match #1: R-Z195
*Extras: L147.2+, L147.1+, L147.4+, V161.1+, V190+, F1345*, Z1842+, M118+, M236+, P9.2+, V58*, P80+, Z346*, IMS-JST029149+, CTS616+, IMS-JST022457+, P266+, V203*
R1b1a2a1a2a1
|Matches: Z195+
|*No-calls: Z196?
|____R1b1a2a1a2a
|*No-calls: DF27?
|____R1b1a2a1a2
|Matches: S116+
|____R1b1a2a1a
|Matches: L11+, L52+, L151+, S129+, S128+
|____R1b1a2a1
..............

Do you know any projects where I can share my data?

REWM
08-26-2015, 10:19 PM
R1b-DF27 Haplogroup and Subclades Y DNA
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-DF27-Project/info

gotten
08-27-2015, 12:44 AM
And the Big Tree http://ytree.net/Instructions.html . If you upload your FGC interpretation results to the DF27 yahoo group it will also show up on the Big Tree when Alex Williamson gets a hold on it.

cderory
08-28-2015, 02:15 PM
I uploaded my FGC interpretation results to the DF27 yahoo group it's already show up on the Big Tree.
Thanks to Alex Williamson.

Joe B
08-28-2015, 05:22 PM
Just a heads up to anybody assigned R-Z195 after being tested with the new R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack. Double check your individual SNP results. We have one guy with P297+, L389+, L23+, L278+, M269+, M343+, Z2103+, Z195+, L51-, U106-, P312- that has been assigned to the R1b-Z195 haplogroup when he is likely R1b-Z2103. FTDNA says the results are "confirmed as correct" by email. So there is a possible Z195.2 SNP if that is confirmed or replicted.

Conan
05-24-2019, 11:51 AM
Is this thread still active? Mammoth? I'm new to this and think I may be having the same problem as you did. Granted this is very old

Webb
05-24-2019, 06:40 PM
Is this thread still active? Mammoth? I'm new to this and think I may be having the same problem as you did. Granted this is very old

What sort of testing did you do?

Conan
05-27-2019, 06:00 AM
I tested with ancestry first. Ran it through Morley's and then uploaded it to Promethease and Ged match. Ged Match gave me P312. On Morelys it was shown likely for P322/S116 but negative on DF27. Then kept going down to R1b-Z278 and likely testing for 195. I also have my father's test as well. It was positive above for M269>L151 L23>L11 etc. I believe I have the right order. I'm a newb to this. My ancestry as far as ancestry tells me is Western Europe (England)78%, Scotland/Ireland 14%, and Germany 8%

Conan
05-27-2019, 06:07 AM
I'm also uploaded on FTDNA but haven't taken an actual Y test yet. I was planning on doing it soon..I was hoping to see if i should and what route to go about from those more experienced. Ftdna also marked my ethnic make-up differently. More specific probably. They broke it down like 40 something percent West and Central Europe, 30% percent Scandinavia, and about 15/15 for South Europe and British Isles.

Conan
05-27-2019, 06:10 AM
And why would Morleys have me negative for DF27? Just an error? Promethease also showed R1a markers or something. Really strange. I think I read somewhere you inherit Y data from the Mothers side? Is that true? Any help would be great! Btw I'm from the Pittsburgh area too man! Small world!

Conan
05-27-2019, 06:45 AM
And it did show negative for U152 and L21. What I was seeing on Morleys just seemed very familiar to what I'm reading here. But i know it's a free program and possibly limited. But these posts are old so I figured it's been updated.

ArmandoR1b
05-27-2019, 09:23 PM
And why would Morleys have me negative for DF27?

The AncestryDNA test doesn't reliably test for DF27 and because of that everyone that is positive for DF27 elsewhere gets a negative read with the AncestryDNA raw DNA.

ArmandoR1b
05-27-2019, 09:58 PM
I tested with ancestry first. Ran it through Morley's and then uploaded it to Promethease and Ged match. Ged Match gave me P312. On Morelys it was shown likely for P322/S116 but negative on DF27. Then kept going down to R1b-Z278 and likely testing for 195. I also have my father's test as well. It was positive above for M269>L151 L23>L11 etc. I believe I have the right order. I'm a newb to this. My ancestry as far as ancestry tells me is Western Europe (England)78%, Scotland/Ireland 14%, and Germany 8%

Gedmatch didn't use to interpret Y-DNA results. Will you provide screenshot of that? AncestryDNA v2 does not have P312 has a tested SNP which is position 22157311. If you open your AncestryDNA raw DNA file in Excel or Google Sheets you should see that position is missing. So what you likely saw was the path to R-Z278.

Will you also provide a screenshot of the results from Morley's program?

R-Z278 is position 18167479 and some people are tested for it by the AncestryDNA test so that is probably what you have a positive read on that is downstream of P311 position 18248698 which is also tested by AncestryDNA.

I converted a 23andme program, and updated it with the 2017 ISOGG tree, so it can be used with Ancestry Y-DNA SNPs. I uploaded it to https://bit.ly/2HCN6oC where you can download it and run your raw DNA through it then save the displayed table and open it a spreadsheet program then sort the longhand haplogroup names so you can see what was tested and what you are positive for and what you are negative for.

The original program is at http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html

ArmandoR1b
05-27-2019, 10:21 PM
I attached a zipped XLSX file of AncestryDNA v2 Y-DNA SNPs listed in the raw DNA file along with the associated 2017 ISOGG haplogroup name, the mutation, the rsid, and the position in case anyone wants to see what they possibly test. If the Genotype is 0 in your own raw DNA file then it is a no-call or not really tested but still listed.

Webb
05-28-2019, 02:00 PM
And why would Morleys have me negative for DF27? Just an error? Promethease also showed R1a markers or something. Really strange. I think I read somewhere you inherit Y data from the Mothers side? Is that true? Any help would be great! Btw I'm from the Pittsburgh area too man! Small world!

YDna is inherited from your father. It runs in a straight line through the males in your family. So you, your father, his father, and so on. As time goes on your line accumulates mutations, or what we call snp's, Single Nucleotide Polymorphism. Every few generations, on average, a SNP mutation accumulates in your DNA, which can be tested for and tracked back to YDna Adam, so to speak. Current testing, thanks to the many people who have done full genome testing, has enabled most companies to test SNP's down to the genealogical timeframe, if enough people have tested positive for a particular SNP or SNP runs. This is the most confident way to find your YDna haplogroup. Most of the predictors use str's, or Short Tandem Repeats. There are instances where one's haplogroup can be predicted by your STR value. The more markers you have tested for the better. When I tested with FTDNA years ago, I was given a terminal snp of R1b - M269. The two large groups under M269, P312 and U106 can have str values that are very close. I have seen where someone was U152 under P312 and someone was U106 and only had a difference of a few str values at 67 markers, yet have very different SNP mutations. Just a caution for you.

Conan
05-29-2019, 03:29 AM
Gedmatch didn't use to interpret Y-DNA results. Will you provide screenshot of that? AncestryDNA v2 does not have P312 has a tested SNP which is position 22157311. If you open your AncestryDNA raw DNA file in Excel or Google Sheets you should see that position is missing. So what you likely saw was the path to R-Z278.

Will you also provide a screenshot of the results from Morley's program?

R-Z278 is position 18167479 and some people are tested for it by the AncestryDNA test so that is probably what you have a positive read on that is downstream of P311 position 18248698 which is also tested by AncestryDNA.

I converted a 23andme program, and updated it with the 2017 ISOGG tree, so it can be used with Ancestry Y-DNA SNPs. I uploaded it to https://bit.ly/2HCN6oC where you can download it and run your raw DNA through it then save the displayed table and open it a spreadsheet program then sort the longhand haplogroup names so you can see what was tested and what you are positive for and what you are negative for.

The original program is at http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html


I apologize. I meant to say I Promethease gave me it. I just uploaded on gedmatch. I was on my phone that night and busy at the time. I will post screenshots of my Morley results. I took one of the Experimental Tree and one of the ISOGG tree.

Conan
05-29-2019, 04:03 AM
30660

Conan
05-29-2019, 04:06 AM
30661

Conan
05-29-2019, 05:26 AM
Im sorry I mistyped above. I know you get Y DNA from the father's side but I meant to say I read that you "can" recieve "some" Ydna from the Mothers side. Idk if that's possible. I can pull up my promethease and post a screenshot of it. Under R Haplogroups it shows R1a and R1b. Like I said I'm very new to all this and am still learning. Although I have learned much within the last few months so I can generally keep up.

I'd really like to know what Y test I should go with from FTDNA. I'm on limited funds as of right now so was hoping I could squeak by with the cheaper one. I feel like this could become an obsession for me. I'm fascinated by the history and genetics. Originally I got into this by studying European history and am now hooked. I'd like to track my family tree further than my uncle did as well and I figure genetics is the way to go. He got it back to about the late 1600s early 1700s.

ArmandoR1b
05-29-2019, 10:04 AM
I apologize. I meant to say I Promethease gave me it. I just uploaded on gedmatch. I was on my phone that night and busy at the time.

That makes sense now

ArmandoR1b
05-29-2019, 10:54 AM
30660

Now I understand why you thought you were tested for P312/S116. Morley doesn't provide a legend for his color coding. If you go to https://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny and download one of the PDFs he describes it there. In it you can see that the color coding used for P312/S116 means SNPs not Geno-tested (or excluded by FTDNA from the list of positive SNPs). Names and placement come from ISOGG’s tree. The important SNPs are in a green background and the the SNPs in a red background, except for DF27, because those are the SNPs that are tested. Again, DF27 isn't truly tested. Everyone gets negative with it. Proper testing of DF27 requires a nested primer which require two PCR passes. Do a search of nested here (https://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10485.0) and here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x). The difference between the Experimental Tree and one of the ISOGG tree is inconsequential. They are both very old anyway. What is important is that you are positive for a series of SNPs that lead to Z278 which are P310, Z195, and Z220 apart from also being positive for Z278 and the only contradictory negatives are either false negatives such as DF27 or SNPs that are back mutations in other subclades that Morley shouldn't include in the predictor.

The Morley predictor was originally created for NatGeo Genographic test results which is why Geno is mentioned on his site and in the PDF.

The best test to start off with at FTDNA is the Y-67. That way you can more easily rule out a lot of lower level matches that aren't from a genealogical time frame although sometimes even at Y-67 some can be included. Not everyone tests at that level so some Y-37 matches that don't appear at Y-67 can be due to them not testing at Y-67 or above. You can ignore the haplogroup prediction based off of the Y-67 test and get the R1b - Z209 SNP Pack or save up for the BigY so that you can determine your subclade downstream from R-Z278.

Yseq has the DF27 panel for a lower price than the FTDNA SNP pack at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=10749 if you want to get that until you save up for a BigY test.

Conan
05-29-2019, 12:12 PM
Now I understand why you thought you were tested for P312/S116. Morley doesn't provide a legend for his color coding. If you go to https://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny and download one of the PDFs he describes it there. In it you can see that the color coding used for P312/S116 means SNPs not Geno-tested (or excluded by FTDNA from the list of positive SNPs). Names and placement come from ISOGG’s tree. The important SNPs are in a green background and the the SNPs in a red background, except for DF27, because those are the SNPs that are tested. Again, DF27 isn't truly tested. Everyone gets negative with it. Proper testing of DF27 requires a nested primer which require two PCR passes. Do a search of nested here (https://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10485.0) and here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x). The difference between the Experimental Tree and one of the ISOGG tree is inconsequential. They are both very old anyway. What is important is that you are positive for a series of SNPs that lead to Z278 which are P310, Z195, and Z220 apart from also being positive for Z278 and the only contradictory negatives are either false negatives such as DF27 or SNPs that are back mutations in other subclades that Morley shouldn't include in the predictor.

The Morley predictor was originally created for NatGeo Genographic test results which is why Geno is mentioned on his site and in the PDF.

The best test to start off with at FTDNA is the Y-67. That way you can more easily rule out a lot of lower level matches that aren't from a genealogical time frame although sometimes even at Y-67 some can be included. Not everyone tests at that level so some Y-37 matches that don't appear at Y-67 can be due to them not testing at Y-67 or above. You can ignore the haplogroup prediction based off of the Y-67 test and get the R1b - Z209 SNP Pack or save up for the BigY so that you can determine your subclade downstream from R-Z278.

Yseq has the DF27 panel for a lower price than the FTDNA SNP pack at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=10749 if you want to get that until you save up for a BigY test.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate your help. All of you. I'm pleasantly shocked about the assistance i immediately received. Knowing it has an Iberian origin(as far as I know), I'm very curious as to how I ended up in this grouping seeing as all of my ethnic make-up is NW European too. Are there any sources on exactly where it originated and how it got to Britain, etc? As far as I've read it seems inconclusive atm. And my last name is Hicks which is an Anglo Saxon surname. So this is all really interesting to me.

And I think I will start with the DF27 panel from Yseq for the time being. Then do the BigY.

Webb
05-29-2019, 02:30 PM
Thank you so much, I really appreciate your help. All of you. I'm pleasantly shocked about the assistance i immediately received. Knowing it has an Iberian origin(as far as I know), I'm very curious as to how I ended up in this grouping seeing as all of my ethnic make-up is NW European too. Are there any sources on exactly where it originated and how it got to Britain, etc? As far as I've read it seems inconclusive atm. And my last name is Hicks which is an Anglo Saxon surname. So this is all really interesting to me.

And I think I will start with the DF27 panel from Yseq for the time being. Then do the BigY.

DF27 most likely doesn't have an Iberian origin. But many different groups under DF27 entered Iberia probably starting around 2400BC, give or take a few centuries. These clades were very successful there so that today, it is the most common P312 clade found in Portugal and Spain. Much like L21 in Ireland and Britain. Where DF27 was actually born is much debated, but being that it the oldest sample found so far is Quedlinburg, Germany not far from the oldest U152 sample, means it is most likely at least as far east as Germany. I think the oldest sample of DF27 found in Iberia is around 2400BC, and two DF27>Z195 samples were Bell Beaker found in Sicily around 2200BC. As far as the Z220/Z210 group, which is called the North/South cluster it is found in modern men from Scandinavia down through Spain. It still appears to me that from Z214 down, is predominately Iberian. Z278 and up has some Iberian testers, but not like Z214 down. I know one kit at FTDNA who is Z278 has a very strong paper trail to a Norman who came to England during the Norman Invasion. I am DF27>Z220/Z210>CTS4065 and have a surname that is the Anglo-Saxon variation of Weaver. My terminal snp is FGC23196 and I share this snp with two Dutchmen, a Dane, a Swede, and a Spaniard who has a strong paper trail to a French knight that served under King Jaime during the Reconquest, who came from Valois, near Paris.

mammothR1
12-25-2019, 11:50 PM
Glad to see the thread still going. My latest results are R1b-Z198*. Negative for CTS4188, ZS312 & L165. Waiting for results back on PH1909 & CTS7079 that I see was added to Eupedia's Phylogenetic tree as of Feb 2017:

35619

mammothR1
12-25-2019, 11:52 PM
Some interesting DF27 maps I recently found:

2000 BC:
35620

117 AD:
35621

1227 AD:
35622

ArmandoR1b
12-26-2019, 01:43 AM
Some interesting DF27 maps I recently found:

2000 BC:
35620

117 AD:
35621

1227 AD:
35622

Those maps are based on ancient specimens and it doesn't even mention all of them. Not all ancient specimens have been tested and most ancient specimens that have been tested do not have a result (negative or positive) for DF27 or it's subclades due to the DNA being degraded. Many don't even have coverage of P312 and/or the other subclades of P312, such as U152, meaning it is hard to tell if they would likely be positive for DF27 if there had been coverage of DF27.

It seems people like maps a lot more than data tables or spreadsheets which allow for a lot more information than maps. The available tables don't mention what SNPs don't have coverage due to degraded DNA so even tables don't tell the full story but they do a better job than maps in several ways.