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Jean M
09-24-2014, 11:48 AM
Here is my section on DF27 as it now stands. Correction and commentary?


R1b1a2a1a2a (DF27) is common in Iberia.[Rocca 2012] So the rare cases of R1b-DF27* (the basal form of DF27) in Ireland today may be a remnant of Bell Beaker movements up the Atlantic. Younger branches of R1b-DF27 probably arrived later in the Isles. If R1b-DF27 carried Bell Beaker pottery from Iberia into the Carpathian Basin, that would explain its present range, which is curiously wide. It has some subclades whose bearers cluster in south-western Europe, but others which are almost exclusive to northern Europeans. One interesting case is the newly discovered R1b-FGC11397 subclade, which is distinctly northern. Its distribution and estimated age suggests that it spread with the Vikings. Yet it has a brother subclade (R1b-DF84) which is found in Iberia.[C. Corner personal communication; https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/home] The parent of the two is an early subclade of R1b-DF27. We may picture one carrier of it moving with Bell Beaker into Scandinavia.

Jean M
09-24-2014, 01:19 PM
Correction received re R1b-DF84. That sentence now reads


Yet it has a brother subclade (Z2568) which has been found in some men of Iberian ancestry.

Heber
09-24-2014, 01:32 PM
Here is my section on DF27 as it now stands. Correction and commentary?

Jean,
I read your book Ancestral Journeys, cover to cover and look forward to the follow up on the Celts.
Here is my analysis on R1b-DF27.
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-df27/

Here are a few interesting sources:
Dr. Miguel Vilar, is working on the detailed analysis of the Genographic Asturias Project. I understand there is high proportion of DF27 with many newly discovered SNPs and significant remnants of L11.
The Atlantic Europe in the Age of Metals team are preparing the proceedings of the most recent conference in the Celtic from the West series.
If you combine DF27 and L21 maps you get something which look like Koch map of Late Bronze Age Atlantic Europe.

razyn
09-25-2014, 03:52 AM
There is some recent interest in A431/A432 -- one of many DF27+ but Z196- clades, but unusual in that it is found in Armenia as well as Iberia -- and pretty much anywhere else. Since we only have known about it for a few weeks, it isn't very broadly sampled yet.

But I still maintain my minority position that the readily apparent blossoming of DF27 on the Atlantic fringe probably represents an area of ultimate success, not the region of its origin (or anything near that), for the parent haplogroup DF27. For resolution of the conundrum I'm waiting for aDNA, as Jean has often suggested we should.

Jean M
09-25-2014, 07:55 AM
For resolution of the conundrum I'm waiting for aDNA, as Jean has often suggested we should.

Touche. Unfortunately the deadline for this book prohibits my waiting for another five or ten years to get all the dots joined by aDNA. (It was commissioned to coincide with a major exhibition on the Celts.) So I am unhappily reliant on modern DNA for far too much of it. What can I do but promise that if I live long enough, any further works that I may be commissioned to write will continue to include as much ancient DNA as is available?

I could perhaps include in the section on DF27 such evidence as we have from modern DNA that Iberia has more basal DF27 than Poland. Anybody? DF27 does not have to have actually arisen in Iberia. I would suspect that it arose at the head of the wave into it, maybe in nothern Italy or France.

Heber
09-25-2014, 10:42 AM
I could perhaps include in the section on DF27 such evidence as we have from modern DNA that Iberia has more basal DF27 than Poland. Anybody? DF27 does not have to have actually arisen in Iberia. I would suspect that it arose at the head of the wave into it, maybe in nothern Italy or France.

It could have expanded from Iberia (Bronze Age) with a reflux model back to Iberia (Iron Age) as suggested by Patterson.
using Admixture analysis.

Ancient Admixture in Human History

"We have detected here a signal of gene flow from northern Europe into Spain around 2000 B.C. We
discuss a likely interpretation. At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed ‘bell-beakers’
believed to correspond to a population spread across Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize
that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial
cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story
may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a
reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with
our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have
been accompanied by substantial population movement."

http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.full.pdf

Jean M
09-25-2014, 11:28 AM
this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have
been accompanied by substantial population movement."

Thanks Heber. I had forgotten their paper. The reflux model is essentially what I go for, though not with all the precise details proposed originally by Edward Sangmeister. He did not propose an Iron Age reflux by the way, but a Late Bell Beaker one, c. 2200 BC (which fits Patterson's estimate of 2000 BC.) I follow him in that. Here's what I say:


The German prehistorian Edward Sangmeister deserves credit for his insight into the Bell Beaker phenomenon. He worked at the German Archaeological Institute in Madrid in the 1950s and excavated Zambujal from 1964-1973. Recognising the differences between the culture and pottery of Zambujal and the later Bell Beaker of more easterly Iberia, he argued that the pottery spread from Iberia into Central Europe and then returned to Iberia together with new cultural influences.

razyn
09-25-2014, 06:54 PM
I could perhaps include in the section on DF27 such evidence as we have from modern DNA that Iberia has more basal DF27 than Poland.
I think it's entirely possible that "basal" DF27 does not exist, either in Iberia or Poland; and studies that purport to reveal its character are either based on about 15 markers (in regionally controlled academic studies carried out before DF27 was identified), or on purported relative breadth of variance (based on STRs, rather than SNPs) in more deeply sampled YDNA -- of persons now living, mostly in the western hemisphere, with ancestry in Iberia or Poland respectively.

Prehistoric reflux migration, as a concept, is useful in a way that's analogous to that of the Zhivotovsky "fudge factor." It makes sense of something one is looking at, that doesn't make sense (or fit one's preferred model, or data one has from other disciplines) without it. I'd just as soon persevere with some paradox, for a while. But I'm sorry about your publishing deadline.

Mark D
09-28-2014, 02:43 PM
I think it's entirely possible that "basal" DF27 does not exist, either in Iberia or Poland; and studies that purport to reveal its character are either based on about 15 markers (in regionally controlled academic studies carried out before DF27 was identified), or on purported relative breadth of variance (based on STRs, rather than SNPs) in more deeply sampled YDNA -- of persons now living, mostly in the western hemisphere, with ancestry in Iberia or Poland respectively.

Prehistoric reflux migration, as a concept, is useful in a way that's analogous to that of the Zhivotovsky "fudge factor." It makes sense of something one is looking at, that doesn't make sense (or fit one's preferred model, or data one has from other disciplines) without it. I'd just as soon persevere with some paradox, for a while. But I'm sorry about your publishing deadline.

I agree, Richard. There is insufficient proof, based on current knowledge, that DF27 originated anywhere specifically. What we know today is infinitesimally small compared with what we will know in the future; that is the nature of scientific discovery. I caution anyone writing on the current state of population genetics to use extensive caveats in drawing inferences based on modern DNA tests. And Jean, I too have read your book cover to cover and enjoyed for years your former website.

R.Rocca
09-28-2014, 04:52 PM
Touche. Unfortunately the deadline for this book prohibits my waiting for another five or ten years to get all the dots joined by aDNA. (It was commissioned to coincide with a major exhibition on the Celts.) So I am unhappily reliant on modern DNA for far too much of it. What can I do but promise that if I live long enough, any further works that I may be commissioned to write will continue to include as much ancient DNA as is available?

I could perhaps include in the section on DF27 such evidence as we have from modern DNA that Iberia has more basal DF27 than Poland. Anybody? DF27 does not have to have actually arisen in Iberia. I would suspect that it arose at the head of the wave into it, maybe in nothern Italy or France.

We know that "basal" groups drop like flies when a population is tested well enough. What is really important is when we have an area that has a lot of sub-clade diversity (note I didn't say STR diversity). So, I don't think we can make anything of the few "basal" DF27 samples we know of one way or another. Regarding Poland...perhaps I missed it in another thread, but why is Poland relevant in a DF27 discussion?

razyn
09-28-2014, 06:30 PM
I think Jean brought it up; but actually I've been looking at Poland since spring of 2011 when Larry Mayka identified a "pseudo NS cluster" of 12 YSearch identities that included (among others) the Polish (Kashubian) Richert family, and me. That turns out to be DF27+, Z196+, Z220+, Z295+, and (to the present point) CTS4065+: that being a Z216- branch under Z295 that seems not to be Iberian at all -- but seems to include Isles, French, Dutch, Scandinavian, and Polish members.

There is also a DF27+, Z196- subclade for Ashkenazi families from the Baltic states, Belarus, Hungary, Russia... we haven't named a SNP for it yet (we have several Big Y tests to play with), but it's group Aaaa in the R1b-DF27 project.

Also, DF27+, Z196-, A431+ is fairly "basal" looking, found in Iberia and Armenia (3,000 miles apart). Some suggest the Armenian examples have Galatian ancestry, from a known movement of that description 2300 years ago. To me, this theory seems hard put to explain why the (very) few DF27s identified thus far in Armenia would be from such an apparently minor branch of the DF27 tree; while its known, prolific-in-Iberia (and elsewhere in Europe) clades, like Z196, are not represented there at all? Meanwhile, in neighboring Georgia, the R1b is also pretty "basal."

But I'm OK with waiting for the second edition of Jean's next book, to explain what really happened. Once we have aDNA, properly sequenced, and sort of know.

Btw Rich, have you seen the new Smithsonian TV program, Stonehenge Empire? There is a nice Bell Beaker discussion, about 1:24 into the two hour broadcast version. I just mention it because I know you, Alan, Jean and others have been interested in that culture, archaeological horizon, or whatever. I was pleased, and a little surprised, to see a popular program like that discussing it. There are closeups of a fine beaker, arrow point, and wrist guard -- all, I think, from this source: http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/publications/amesbury-archer-and-boscombe-bowmen

Kwheaton
09-28-2014, 09:57 PM
Jean,

What is the working title of your new book? I have thoroughly enjoyed Ancestral Journeys and my review on Amazon US has gotten favorable feedback!
Regards,
Kelly

Jean M
09-28-2014, 10:24 PM
What is the working title of your new book? I have thoroughly enjoyed Ancestral Journeys and my review on Amazon US has gotten favorable

Kelly - Thank you for your lovely review. It went into my collection!

I scarcely dare reveal the working title of the new book, because I did that with my last and then the title was changed, leaving some people looking for the wrong title. It will get announced further down the line.

Jean M
09-29-2014, 11:11 AM
Also, DF27+, Z196-, A431+ is fairly "basal" looking, found in Iberia and Armenia (3,000 miles apart). Some suggest the Armenian examples have Galatian ancestry, from a known movement of that description 2300 years ago. To me, this theory seems hard put to explain why the (very) few DF27s identified thus far in Armenia would be from such an apparently minor branch of the DF27 tree; while its known, prolific-in-Iberia (and elsewhere in Europe) clades, like Z196, are not represented there at all? Meanwhile, in neighboring Georgia, the R1b is also pretty "basal."

I can't find A431 on Morley's tree, but it certainly sounds very interesting. I doubt that it has anything to do with the really basal types of R1b that are found in and around Iran. DF27 sits on the European branch. At a guess I'd say that it belongs in the group of various haplogroups in Armenia that seem to have travelled with the Armenian language from the Balkans, where it apparently developed as a neighbour to Greek. It did not arrive in Armenia until the 6th century BC. That leaves plenty of time for contact with BB types and their descendants passing through.


I'm OK with waiting for the second edition of Jean's next book, to explain what really happened. Once we have aDNA, properly sequenced..

Heavens! I'll be pushing up daisies by the time we actually know everything, if we ever do. Nothing stopping you younger things from stepping in to the breach though. :biggrin1:

Kwheaton
09-29-2014, 01:16 PM
Kelly - Thank you for your lovely review. It went into my collection!

I scarcely dare reveal the working title of the new book, because I did that with my last and then the title was changed, leaving some people looking for the wrong title. It will get announced further down the line.

Well Whatever it is.....I will be looking forward to it! And will certainly review it!
Kelly

Webb
09-29-2014, 01:50 PM
I can't find A431 on Morley's tree, but it certainly sounds very interesting. I doubt that it has anything to do with the really basal types of R1b that are found in and around Iran. DF27 sits on the European branch. At a guess I'd say that it belongs in the group of various haplogroups in Armenia that seem to have travelled with the Armenian language from the Balkans, where it apparently developed as a neighbour to Greek. It did not arrive in Armenia until the 6th century BC. That leaves plenty of time for contact with BB types and their descendants passing through.



Heavens! I'll be pushing up daisies by the time we actually know everything, if we ever do. Nothing stopping you younger things from stepping in to the breach though. :biggrin1:

According to Mher, who is the Armenian who is DF27, the other three men from his area who are P312 share a common ancestor at around 800 years ago. My guess is while they carry a very old snp by appearance, the fact that the common ancestor is more recent, I am leaning towards a founder effect in their particular instance. The common ancestor would have been alive around 1200. Crusades possibly?

Jean M
09-29-2014, 07:41 PM
There is insufficient proof, based on current knowledge, that DF27 originated anywhere specifically. What we know today is infinitesimally small compared with what we will know in the future; that is the nature of scientific discovery. I caution anyone writing on the current state of population genetics to use extensive caveats in drawing inferences based on modern DNA tests. And Jean, I too have read your book cover to cover and enjoyed for years your former website.

My draft above does not make any guess at all about where DF27 originated. I have said dozens of times on forums that we are never going to know the exact spot on the planet that any haplogroup first cropped up in a single person. We have to settle for a general idea of flow. If you have read my book, then you know how keen I am on ancient DNA and how strongly I emphasise that modern DNA can be misleading, and how clearly I state that we are in a whirlwind process of discovery. I'm naturally delighted that you agree with me.

But that should not terrify us into silence. If the first attempts at scientific deduction had been kept from sight, because it was so obvious that there was a gigantic amount that the striving scientists did not know, then science would never have got off the ground. Discovery is a never-ending process. Each individual can only add a drop to the moving stream of knowledge. Each of us can only make an honest effort to draw the most logical conclusions we can from the data available to us at the time. We go to print in the full knowledge that we will be inevitably outdated. But then we have outdated previous authors. That's how it goes.

Sorry to come over all serious. It seems we have been plunged into policy.

rms2
09-30-2014, 03:31 AM
According to Mher, who is the Armenian who is DF27, the other three men from his area who are P312 share a common ancestor at around 800 years ago. My guess is while they carry a very old snp by appearance, the fact that the common ancestor is more recent, I am leaning towards a founder effect in their particular instance. The common ancestor would have been alive around 1200. Crusades possibly?

As I recall, Mher is from Syunik (correct me if I am wrong) in Armenia. Armenia was one of the first Christian nations. You may be right about a founder effect, but I don't believe there were any Crusades in Armenia.

David Mc
09-30-2014, 04:44 AM
... I don't believe there were any Crusades in Armenia.

I don't know if the Crusaders were present in modern day Armenia, but they were certainly present in the old Armenian territories. Sometimes they were allies, occasionally they were enemies (as an example, the Crusaders tried to take Armenian-held Cilicia); and they weren't adverse to intermarriage-- one of the Bohemonds (don't remember which) married a daughter of the Armenian nobility. It's not impossible that DF27 could have found it's way there with a Frankish man-at-arms.

Mher
09-30-2014, 07:16 AM
my closest relative in Europe is 2300 year!144416 William Bailie, b. 1820 Gray Abbey, N. Ireland .He have A431 . I think my ancetors was galatians!

Mher
09-30-2014, 07:29 AM
I know how the Galatians of Anatolia could get into Syunik (Khndzoresk )

ADW_1981
09-30-2014, 02:41 PM
I know how the Galatians of Anatolia could get into Syunik (Khndzoresk )

If Galatians were an expansion from NE France/Western German Gaulish tribes, I believe A431 would fit very nicely. It may have crossed the English channel with the Normans. However, I don't know how you go from Central Turkey -> Armenia? Would Central Turkey -> Cilicia-> Armenia make more sense?

Mher
09-30-2014, 03:01 PM
Galatians 2270 years ago were in Anatolia!Galatians existed in Galatia to the 6th century!then Romanized!in the 7th century, the movement of the Paulicians
also covers Galatia and Cappadocia!After the defeat and genocide paulikians they in 872 fled to Armenia and joined Tondrakians!In the 10th century Tondrakians came in Syunik!The oldest tombstones in Khndzoresk -10 century!Khndzoresk cave gorge where Tondrakians could take refuge from persecution!4 persons from khndzoresk have 850 years ancetors!My closest relative in Europe is 2300 year!144416 William Bailie, b. 1820 Gray Abbey, N. Ireland .He have A431 . All converge on dates

Mher
09-30-2014, 03:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulicianism

Mher
09-30-2014, 03:03 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tondrakians

rms2
09-30-2014, 03:13 PM
I don't know if the Crusaders were present in modern day Armenia, but they were certainly present in the old Armenian territories. Sometimes they were allies, occasionally they were enemies (as an example, the Crusaders tried to take Armenian-held Cilicia); and they weren't adverse to intermarriage-- one of the Bohemonds (don't remember which) married a daughter of the Armenian nobility. It's not impossible that DF27 could have found it's way there with a Frankish man-at-arms.

Cilicia is far from Armenia proper and certainly far from Syunik. I suppose a DF27+ Crusader could have fathered a child in the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and that child or his male offspring could have found his/their way to what is now modern Armenia, but it seems a stretch, like one of those traveling salesmen stories.

But anything is possible, I guess.

JRW
09-30-2014, 07:59 PM
my closest relative in Europe is 2300 year!144416 William Bailie, b. 1820 Gray Abbey, N. Ireland .He have A431 . I think my ancetors was galatians!

I agree. The evidence (as limited as it is) suggest your ancestor was part of the Celtic migrations from the Marne - Moselle region during the Iron Age. Your ancestor travelled east and your cousin's ancestor travelled to the Isles. Although it could be just coincidence, the fact that your closest discovered relative in Europe traces ancestry to the northern half of Ireland and you share a common ancestor from 2300 years ago, fits that scenario better than others.

Mher
09-30-2014, 08:49 PM
The Galatians were a Celtic people that dwelt mainly in the north central regions of Asia Minor or Anatolia, in what was known as Galatia, in today's Turkey. In their origin they were a part of the great Celtic migration which invaded Macedon, led by Brennus. The original Celts who settled in Galatia came through Thrace under the leadership of Leotarios and Leonnorios c. 270 BC. These Celts consisted mainly of three tribes, the Tectosages, the Trocmii, and the Tolistobogii, but they were also other minor tribes. They spoke a Celtic language, the Galatian language, which is sparsely attested.

ADW_1981
09-30-2014, 08:51 PM
I agree. The evidence (as limited as it is) suggest your ancestor was part of the Celtic migrations from the Marne - Moselle region during the Iron Age. Your ancestor travelled east and your cousin's ancestor travelled to the Isles. Although it could be just coincidence, the fact that your closest discovered relative in Europe traces ancestry to the northern half of Ireland and you share a common ancestor from 2300 years ago, fits that scenario better than others.

Bailie is a Norman name, and the MDKA is in the north to boot, so that likely rules out an old Irish ancestor. I think you'll find most of BI Celts were L21, but that's just my speculation based on data collected so far.

Mher
09-30-2014, 08:51 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae#mediaviewer/File:Volcae_Arecomisci_and_Tectosages_%28migration s%29.svg

Mher
09-30-2014, 08:57 PM
Balley have Df27>a431

Agamemnon
10-01-2014, 12:45 AM
Speaking of Galatians, someone from Niğde (which stands within the vicinity of what once was Galatia) came back R-U152 positive... I really wonder which subclade he belongs to.

Mher
10-20-2014, 07:02 PM
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/

Mher
10-20-2014, 07:07 PM
144416 William Bailie, b. 1820 Gray Abbey, N. Ireland may be from me not 2300 year !It is a hopoplazia.He also have only A431 as me!a431 3500 year!

Arch
10-29-2014, 10:26 AM
My draft above does not make any guess at all about where DF27 originated. I have said dozens of times on forums that we are never going to know the exact spot on the planet that any haplogroup first cropped up in a single person. We have to settle for a general idea of flow. If you have read my book, then you know how keen I am on ancient DNA and how strongly I emphasise that modern DNA can be misleading, and how clearly I state that we are in a whirlwind process of discovery. I'm naturally delighted that you agree with me.

But that should not terrify us into silence. If the first attempts at scientific deduction had been kept from sight, because it was so obvious that there was a gigantic amount that the striving scientists did not know, then science would never have got off the ground. Discovery is a never-ending process. Each individual can only add a drop to the moving stream of knowledge. Each of us can only make an honest effort to draw the most logical conclusions we can from the data available to us at the time. We go to print in the full knowledge that we will be inevitably outdated. But then we have outdated previous authors. That's how it goes.

Sorry to come over all serious. It seems we have been plunged into policy.

That's why I hate reading books whenever looking for the most up-to-date information available because of the ridiculous length of time it takes one to be published. Seriously, it's 2014 and we're dealing with publishing periods that take equally at least as long as it did when the Wright brothers flew the first airplane? To me the painful part is the amount of research required to put the work together is the other factor that makes reading books so absolutely excruciating. Just knowing you're reading something that is nearly two years old and virtually "outdated" is frustrating. It's almost unacceptable in the age of 3D and 4D printing that we can create complex parts for big machines faster than we can publish a book. Praise to the blogs and the all the authors that keep 'em updated at least on a monthly basis. At least with blogs and most journals whenever ancient DNA or other groundbreaking finds are discovered it won't take two years to read about it, or reread old and rehashed materials -- unless the researchers got lazy or lacked resources to further their study. Maybe it was fine a decade ago when population genetics was in its infancy, but so much is being learned so quickly that books are not a good fit unless you want to learn about the potentially outdated history of population genetics. I'll still get your book because I think your last one was well written and researched, but I'll shed tears (so dramatic) knowing what I'm learning will lack relevance to what is happening now. Somebody get a stick and poke the publisher's backs get these books out faster.

Arch

Jean M
10-29-2014, 11:00 AM
Just knowing you're reading something that is nearly two years old

No need to exaggerate. Ancestral Journeys was revised right up to the wire, so to speak. It was about six months out of date when it hit the shop shelves, not two years. Since most of the studies that have come out subsequently have reinforced my main conclusions, I don't feel that readers have been seriously short-changed. Anyone who thinks that AJ 'lacks relevance to what is going on now' hasn't read Seven Daughters of Eve. :biggrin1:

Neither will my coming book be two years out of date. I am just putting the finishing touches to text as we head for November 2014. It will be published in September 2015. If you want to make mischief Arch, you are chasing up the wrong trouser-leg. The book is liable to cause an explosion in certain quarters.

rms2
10-29-2014, 12:09 PM
. . . The book is liable to cause an explosion in certain quarters.

I'm looking forward to buying a copy and reading it. I enjoyed your first book tremendously and have read it several times. It still takes trips with me when I know I am going to be waiting somewhere and will need something interesting to read.

I have been recommending Ancestral Journeys to new members of the R L21 and Subclades Project for awhile now.

Jean M
10-29-2014, 12:52 PM
I'm looking forward to buying a copy and reading it. I enjoyed your first book tremendously and have read it several times. It still takes trips with me when I know I am going to be waiting somewhere and will need something interesting to read.

I have been recommending Ancestral Journeys to new members of the R L21 and Subclades Project for awhile now.

Thanks Rich. But I feel I should mention that AJ had a couple of bad reviews from people that it seems you recommended it to. As I read between the lines, it wasn't the quick introduction to L21 that they really wanted. Not everyone will be as keen as you on the wider background. The way that the L21 tree is growing, there could be a really interesting book on that alone, should you have the time to write one.

rms2
10-29-2014, 03:32 PM
Thanks Rich. But I feel I should mention that AJ had a couple of bad reviews from people that it seems you recommended it to. As I read between the lines, it wasn't the quick introduction to L21 that they really wanted. Not everyone will be as keen as you on the wider background. The way that the L21 tree is growing, there could be a really interesting book on that alone, should you have the time to write one.

I saw one of those, by a knucklehead who apparently expected an entire book on his obscure sub-sub-subclade. Good grief.

I should add a caveat to my recommendation of the book: don't buy this book if you have the IQ of a turnip.

Webb
10-31-2014, 01:57 PM
No need to exaggerate. Ancestral Journeys was revised right up to the wire, so to speak. It was about six months out of date when it hit the shop shelves, not two years. Since most of the studies that have come out subsequently have reinforced my main conclusions, I don't feel that readers have been seriously short-changed. Anyone who thinks that AJ 'lacks relevance to what is going on now' hasn't read Seven Daughters of Eve. :biggrin1:

Neither will my coming book be two years out of date. I am just putting the finishing touches to text as we head for November 2014. It will be published in September 2015. If you want to make mischief Arch, you are chasing up the wrong trouser-leg. The book is liable to cause an explosion in certain quarters.

What sort of explosion, might I ask?

Jean M
10-31-2014, 07:04 PM
What sort of explosion, might I ask?

Perhaps I'm wrong. I trampled on the academic orthodoxy of decades in AJ and expected more fireworks than I got. I am doing this same in this one. Let's wait and see what ensues.

rms2
10-31-2014, 10:08 PM
I personally hope you gave the Celto-sceptics at least a little grief. You tweaked them a little in Ancestral Journeys; I'd like to see more of that. :thumb:

Kwheaton
10-31-2014, 11:05 PM
I saw one of those, by a knucklehead who apparently expected an entire book on his obscure sub-sub-subclade. Good grief.

I should add a caveat to my recommendation of the book: don't buy this book if you have the IQ of a turnip.

As Jean knows I didn't quite call them out as having the IQ of a turnip but I did mention that the book wasn't for those looking for a treatise on their personal Haplogroup. It's all about managing expectations! LOL
As for the new book I can't wait. Something for my 2015 Christmas List!

edited for dreadful typos

Jean M
11-01-2014, 09:56 AM
I personally hope you gave the Celto-sceptics at least a little grief. You tweaked them a little in Ancestral Journeys; I'd like to see more of that. :thumb:

I don't think you will be disappointed. ;)

Jean M
11-01-2014, 09:58 AM
I did mention that the book wasn't for those looking for a treatise on their personal Haplogroup. It's all about managing expectations!

Exactly. And thank you.

Heber
11-01-2014, 02:14 PM
Mike Hammer did a great presentation on R1b Migrations at the recent FTDNA conference.
This presentation was well documented by Roberta Estes.
http://dna-explained.com/2014/10/21/peopling-of-europe-2014-identifying-the-ghost-population/
However there is one glaring omission in the presentation.
There is no mention of DF27 or Iberia.
The Geno 2.0 chip does not test for DF27 (I understand the Geno 3.0 chip does).
Rocca and Magoon clearly identified the expansion of DF27 in Iberia in 2012.
2835
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634
Tyler Smith, Wei and Xue identified the extreme expansion of R1b in Europe in 2013.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3561879/
Of this expansion P312 was the most extreme and DF27 within P312.
Patterson linked this to the Bell Beaker expansion in Iberia in 2012.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3522152/
The POBI project has clearly picked up this Iberian component (as well as French and German) and linked it to present day Celtic in the Isles.
2836
The Iron Age Hinxton Ancient DNA sample also clearly identified this Iberian component.
http://www.ashg.org/2014meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f140122098.htm
I hope that this glaring omission can be redressed in you book and look forward to its publication next year.

Jean M
11-01-2014, 02:42 PM
I hope that this glaring omission can be redressed in you book and look forward to its publication next year.

I'm certainly not going to miss DF27 or Iberia out of the story, don't worry. :)

alan
11-01-2014, 03:10 PM
I must admit I am sorting trending towards the idea that DF27 was part of a later beaker reflux towards Iberia. Note too DF27 is highest in eastern Iberia, not the Atlantic zone. I change my mind on this a lot but, purely based on current ancient DNA, R1b doesnt look pre-beaker, not even pre-beaker copper age, in western Europe. However, this is admittedly based on a tiny sample from 3 sites c. 3500-3000 in western Europe and not much better for all Europe.

To me, a lot falls into place if c. 2600BC L11 derived R1b spread from central or Alpine Europe by this lineage following back to source in reverse and taking over a slightly older non-R1b beaker network. It makes sense that a lineage who had had contact and perhaps married with early SWern beaker people from Iberia, S. France etc who had come up the Rhone into west-central Europe may have thought 'aye aye..I fancy a bit of that action' and took over the trade. It is even in line with the Sion story put together by H and H who seem to see a sequence of pre-beaker copper age people, then SW beaker people then finally central Europe (beakerised?-my brackets) people ruling the roost. I would tend to think ancient DNA would suggest the first two groups were G folks, perhaps E, and the last group was L11 or P312.

That model of course means that there would be a need to identify a group in that west central European/Alpine contact zone that was L11 or P312. Probably the origin zone of P312 is best found where branch shedding in ancestral forms concentrate above it i.e. L51* and L11xP312xU106 etc. Again those broadly still speak of 'Alpine' IMO. A great deal falls into place if P312 has a pre-beaker central/Alpine European life. There is IMO a strong suggestion that at some point L51* controlled the Tyrol passes for example. You could argue that in competition for trade that was a plum spot and shouldnt be looked at in terms of marginality for agriculture. Its interesting to me that L51 is so high in what would have been one of the first Alpine passes that a group coming from the east into the Alpine zone would encounter. Could this have been an early example of what we archaeologically see at Sion further west- a long established route run by Iceman, Remedello pre-beaker copper age peoples that was then taken over by R1b - in this case L51*- central Europeans. It could have been a relatively small group who did this and therefore archaeologically very hard to spot.

Which if true would suggest to me that beaker elements coming trading from SW Europe may have met, intermarried with but then been taken over by a beakerised central European group. Archaeologically the timing of this is unlikely to pre-date 2600 by more than a century. Its also fair to say the upper Rhone and western Alps was most likely first point of contact between south-western beaker groups and central Europeans although a lot depends on being more sure about the Csepel dating as they could be an example of an early contact between central and south-western Europeans in Hungary - by what route I am not sure but Tyrol seems possible to me. Of course for fans of Yamnaya R1b its interesting that people in Hungary could have been involved in the process of R1b folks following the beaker route back to source? In other words were the earliest beaker groups to head into central Europe the cause of the doom of the earliest beaker group rather like if we got invaded by UFO after sending friendly signals into the Milk Way

Either way, I think the concept of a reflux by R1b central Europeans back towards the trade source stealing the older early beaker trade routes could be close to the truth. The fact that the initial phase of contact and intermarriage 'beakerised' them has perhaps obscured this.

This concept of following an initially friendly trade route by taking it over and/or tailing it back to source is a common theme. I think in much later times that is essentially what the Celts did when their Hallstatt D trade went bust. They followed the route they knew back to where they new the wealth was.

rossa
11-01-2014, 03:29 PM
I personally hope you gave the Celto-sceptics at least a little grief. You tweaked them a little in Ancestral Journeys; I'd like to see more of that. :thumb:

Yes, and some more on"Iron Age England".

rms2
11-01-2014, 03:32 PM
I must admit I am sorting trending towards the idea that DF27 was part of a later beaker reflux towards Iberia. Note too DF27 is highest in eastern Iberia, not the Atlantic zone. I change my mind on this a lot but, purely based on current ancient DNA, R1b doesnt look pre-beaker, not even pre-beaker copper age, in western Europe. However, this is admittedly based on a tiny sample from 3 sites c. 3500-3000 in western Europe and not much better for all Europe.

To me, a lot falls into place if c. 2600BC L11 derived R1b spread from central or Alpine Europe by this lineage following back to source in reverse and taking over a slightly older non-R1b beaker network. It makes sense that a lineage who had had contact and perhaps married with early SWern beaker people from Iberia, S. France etc who had come up the Rhone into west-central Europe may have thought 'aye aye..I fancy a bit of that action' and took over the trade. It is even in line with the Sion story put together by H and H who seem to see a sequence of pre-beaker copper age people, then SW beaker people then finally central Europe (beakerised?-my brackets) people ruling the roost. I would tend to think ancient DNA would suggest the first two groups were G folks, perhaps E, and the last group was L11 or P312.

That model of course means that there would be a need to identify a group in that west central European/Alpine contact zone that was L11 or P312. Probably the origin zone of P312 is best found where branch shedding in ancestral forms concentrate above it i.e. L51* and L11xP312xU106 etc. Again those broadly still speak of 'Alpine' IMO. A great deal falls into place if P312 has a pre-beaker central/Alpine European life. There is IMO a strong suggestion that at some point L51* controlled the Tyrol passes for example. You could argue that in competition for trade that was a plum spot and shouldnt be looked at in terms of marginality for agriculture. Its interesting to me that L51 is so high in what would have been one of the first Alpine passes that a group coming from the east into the Alpine zone would encounter. Could this have been an early example of what we archaeologically see at Sion further west- a long established route run by Iceman, Remedello pre-beaker copper age peoples that was then taken over by R1b - in this case L51*- central Europeans. It could have been a relatively small group who did this and therefore archaeologically very hard to spot.

Which if true would suggest to me that beaker elements coming trading from SW Europe may have met, intermarried with but then been taken over by a beakerised central European group. Archaeologically the timing of this is unlikely to pre-date 2600 by more than a century. Its also fair to say the upper Rhone and western Alps was most likely first point of contact between south-western beaker groups and central Europeans although a lot depends on being more sure about the Csepel dating as they could be an example of an early contact between central and south-western Europeans in Hungary - by what route I am not sure but Tyrol seems possible to me. Of course for fans of Yamnaya R1b its interesting that people in Hungary could have been involved in the process of R1b folks following the beaker route back to source? In other words were the earliest beaker groups to head into central Europe the cause of the doom of the earliest beaker group rather like if we got invaded by UFO after sending friendly signals into the Milk Way

Either way, I think the concept of a reflux by R1b central Europeans back towards the trade source stealing the older early beaker trade routes could be close to the truth. The fact that the initial phase of contact and intermarriage 'beakerised' them has perhaps obscured this.

This concept of following an initially friendly trade route by taking it over and/or tailing it back to source is a common theme. I think in much later times that is essentially what the Celts did when their Hallstatt D trade went bust. They followed the route they knew back to where they new the wealth was.

I think that's right and the source of the R1b was western Yamnaya. Somehow R1b became dominant in eastern Beaker, then eastern Beaker moved west and spread R1b hither and yon, including Iberia.

I could be wrong, but I want to see some ancient western Yamnaya y-dna test results.

The mystery to me is U106, which I personally do not think had anything to do with Beaker. I still suspect U106 got mixed up in Corded Ware.

alan
11-01-2014, 03:34 PM
Just a thought but could SW originated non-R1b beaker people simply c. 2700-2600 have brought their trade route to the attention of existing group of lineages simply by showing their faces and intermarrying. What if L21 already existed on the Mid/Lower Rhine, U152 on the upper Rhine or Danube, DF27 at the upper Rhone, L51 in Austria etc in immediate pre-beaker times and were already taking a role in pre-beaker R1b. If that was the case then the only plausible pre-beaker population, and the one that existed in those areas when beaker appeared, is corded ware. I know Jean has listed problems with the theory of R1b in corded ware and ancient DNA to date is against it but I dont think it can be totally dismissed.

The beaker skulls are a problem no matter how you look at it as they are basically a type that was unknown in temperate Europe or SW Europe and SW Asia before 3000BC. Only place before that date the skulls might have existed in Italy but there is no sign of an out-of-Italy movement in that period. It seems more likely to be due to hybriding, inbreeding etc. Most importantly, this skull type is not known among pre-beaker period copper age peoples in south-west Europe or central Europe for that matter - its spreading across Europe seems clearly to be linked to the developed beaker phase c. 2600BC onwards. It is not known in pre-beaker Iberia, early beaker Iberia, pre-beaker SW France, early beaker SW France, pre-beaker Sion, early beaker Sion etc etc.

Its very hard not to conclude that by hook or by crook the spread of these skulls, developed beaker and P312 were not closely linked and are very unlikely to have spread out of SW Europe. Central Europe looks far more likely. The contribution of SW Europe may have simply been to accidentally show the central/Alpine Europeans the way to the massive metal sources of SW Europe by a short period of trading and marrying their daughters for alliance. A bit of a Hengist and Horsa and Vortigern sort of scenario of initial alliance and friendliness followed by usurpation.

Hollywood please step in and make the movie

Jean M
11-01-2014, 04:23 PM
Yes, and some more on"Iron Age England".

There was no England in the Iron Age, so I must disappoint you there. :)

[Added] Must admit that I used the familar 'England, Scotland, Wales' divisions in http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml

rms2
11-01-2014, 04:28 PM
That is why I usually preface remarks that involve the name of a modern state with what is now. You know, like this: The Catuvellauni lived in the southeastern part of what is now England.

rms2
11-01-2014, 04:46 PM
. . .

The beaker skulls are a problem no matter how you look at it as they are basically a type that was unknown in temperate Europe or SW Europe and SW Asia before 3000BC. . .

I have mentioned this in the past, but there is a book by Kurt Gerhardt called Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland (1953 - The Bell Beaker People in Middle and West Germany). Gerhardt studied 130 Beaker skulls and made a number of sketches. He dubbed the type "Plano-Occipital Steilkopf". Steilkopf is German for "Steep Head", a reference to the steep incline at the back of the brachycephalic skulls of these Beaker Folk. They are also supposed to have had strong jaws and brow ridges.

I haven't read this book; I've only read about it. Gerhardt supposedly concluded that Beaker skulls were most similar to those found in eastern Anatolia and Armenia.

rossa
11-01-2014, 05:01 PM
There was no England in the Iron Age, so I must disappoint you there. :)

[Added] Must admit that I used the familar 'England, Scotland, Wales' divisions in http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml

Hence the inverted commas; you've mentioned the idea before about how many tend to ignore the fact that Celts were in what is now England, hopefully you go over it

Jean M
11-01-2014, 05:56 PM
Hence the inverted commas; you've mentioned the idea before about how many tend to ignore the fact that Celts were in what is now England, hopefully you go over it

Certainly do. But the book being a narrative, it does not replace the website coverage, which is mainly tribe by tribe, so I think a lot of the latter will be left up.

vettor
11-01-2014, 06:03 PM
I must admit I am sorting trending towards the idea that DF27 was part of a later beaker reflux towards Iberia. Note too DF27 is highest in eastern Iberia, not the Atlantic zone. I change my mind on this a lot but, purely based on current ancient DNA, R1b doesnt look pre-beaker, not even pre-beaker copper age, in western Europe. However, this is admittedly based on a tiny sample from 3 sites c. 3500-3000 in western Europe and not much better for all Europe.

For clarity, IIRC, ancient iberians resided in modern catalonia, valencia , aragon and SE french area, they where non-celtic people , they had there own language/script and customs. Are you saying they hold the most DF27 or are you saying the celtiberians of northern and central modern spain where these DF27?




That model of course means that there would be a need to identify a group in that west central European/Alpine contact zone that was L11 or P312. Probably the origin zone of P312 is best found where branch shedding in ancestral forms concentrate above it i.e. L51* and L11xP312xU106 etc. Again those broadly still speak of 'Alpine' IMO. A great deal falls into place if P312 has a pre-beaker central/Alpine European life. There is IMO a strong suggestion that at some point L51* controlled the Tyrol passes for example. You could argue that in competition for trade that was a plum spot and shouldnt be looked at in terms of marginality for agriculture. Its interesting to me that L51 is so high in what would have been one of the first Alpine passes that a group coming from the east into the Alpine zone would encounter. Could this have been an early example of what we archaeologically see at Sion further west- a long established route run by Iceman, Remedello pre-beaker copper age peoples that was then taken over by R1b - in this case L51*- central Europeans. It could have been a relatively small group who did this and therefore archaeologically very hard to spot.


correct me if I am wrong, but I thought L11 was primary a western alpine people (swiss) as well as ancient ligurians, while L51 according to the 2013 Coia paper where central and eastern Alpine and where the raetic and venetic people.

Edit: correction ...........for L51
9.1% T & L [18 samples]
8.1% R1b-M269 [14 samples]
8.4% R1b-L51 [15 samples]
0.4% R1b-L11 [2 samples]
24.9% R1b-U152 [76 samples]
8.4% R1b-L21 [15 samples]
8.4% R1b-U106 [15 samples]
1.4% R1a [2 samples]
0.7% I-M170
4.3% I1-M253
0.7% I2-P37.2
3.6% G-M201
0.7% E-M35
2.1% E-V13
4.2% J1-M267
0.3% J2-M172
10.5% J2a .........................Part of the gamba paper for the hungarians !?
3.5% J2b



Either way, I think the concept of a reflux by R1b central Europeans back towards the trade source stealing the older early beaker trade routes could be close to the truth. The fact that the initial phase of contact and intermarriage 'beakerised' them has perhaps obscured this.


agree, we even have historical trade routes dating from 2000BC from the baltic sea ( as well as jutland) to the med. running through the alps.


This concept of following an initially friendly trade route by taking it over and/or tailing it back to source is a common theme. I think in much later times that is essentially what the Celts did when their Hallstatt D trade went bust. They followed the route they knew back to where they new the wealth was.

we differ, IMO, trade was a relay system, it was not carried all the way from point A to point B.
a celt could have sold it on to a helvetic person who sold it on to a ligurian who sold it on to a etruscan .as an example

Heber
11-01-2014, 07:41 PM
I must admit I am sorting trending towards the idea that DF27 was part of a later beaker reflux towards Iberia. Note too DF27 is highest in eastern Iberia, not the Atlantic zone. I change my mind on this a lot but, purely based on current ancient DNA, R1b doesnt look pre-beaker, not even pre-beaker copper age, in western Europe. However, this is admittedly based on a tiny sample from 3 sites c. 3500-3000 in western Europe and not much better for all Europe.

I agree with the reflux model as proposed by Patterson. The Stelae People trail would appear to be a reasonable vector.
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/R1b-DF27/

The Genographic Project found 75% R1b in Asturias, I understand mainly DF27 ( using an advanced chip).
This would shift the center of gravity west to the Atlantic zone.

"Haplogroup R1b was the reoccurring lineage for paternal ancestry, accounting for nearly 75% of male participants in this group. R1b is the most common European Y-chromosome branch, and nearly 60% of European men carry this lineage."

2842

razyn
11-02-2014, 02:23 AM
It's been a little hard to track down, but Patterson was talking about autosomal DNA refluxing westward (back?) into Iberia... clearly, not DF27 (which isn't autosomal, and IMO wasn't originally Iberian anyhow) fluxing first east to Central Europe, then west to Iberia to pile up in Asturias... and btw there is a group that now wants DF27>A431 to be these folks re-re-refluxing to Armenia as Galatians, and/or Crusaders. I think it's too dang many fluxes, being posited unnecessarily, in order to explain an otherwise fairly regular looking pattern of branching and growth within a male, R1b population originating somewhere east of the Black Sea -- and ultimately becoming quite successful breeders of sons in the western extremities (including islands) of the long Asian peninsula that Europeans like to think of as a continent. I don't know where the DF27 mutation happened -- or even whether that much matters, in what looks like a highly mobile (maritime?) population. But DF27's subclades became widely distributed, with many phylogenetically distinct, and geographically increasingly isolable, patterns -- of which the indisputable success (vis-a-vis other male lines) of certain prolific DF27 subclades, reflected in contemporary Y-DNA percentages in or near Iberia, is but one.

For the benefit of others who may wonder -- the Patterson reflux model was discussed here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2519-What-are-the-implications-of-DF13-s-age-and-early-branching&p=40773&viewfull=1#post40773

Jean M
11-02-2014, 12:20 PM
I think it's too dang many fluxes, being posited unnecessarily, in order to explain an otherwise fairly regular looking pattern of branching and growth within a male, R1b population originating somewhere east of the Black Sea -- and ultimately becoming quite successful breeders of sons in the western extremities (including islands) of the long Asian peninsula that Europeans like to think of as a continent.

I agree entirely that DF27 fits into the overall picture of R1b people moving northwards and westwards from the European steppe. I have always thought so. The discussion has I hope moved on from these basics to details.

The problem is that when you start to delve into detail, migration often turns out to be a lot more complex than a body of people neatly moving from A to B in period X. The archaeology shows people moving up the Danube, across to northern Italy, and from there to Iberia. Then some sort of crisis hit the Iberian end. Towns and burial sites were abandoned c. 2400 BC. Around that time Bell Beaker turned up in the British Isles and Csepel Island, Hungary, together with gold items like those in Portugal. The central European BB melded with local cultures, with distinctive items. So we can track this type of BB as it spread north, east and west. Some arrived at Sion c. 2200 BC and smashed up the earlier BB stelae there to make its own political/social statement. From there some moved into the Iberian meseta. That is where we later find the Celtiberian language. In the centuries before the Roman conquest, some Celtiberians spread across much of the rest of Iberia.

The modern distribution of DF27 suggests to me that it might have gone along the stelae route to Iberia c. 3000 BC, then quite a chunk of it doubled back to Central Europe c. 2400 BC, from where it spread in various directions. It seems old enough. An alternative scenario that it spread from Hungary with Late BB is not totally outrageous and cannot be ruled out without aDNA. But neither does it explain the current distribution better. If we pay attention to what clues we can glean from modern DNA, they suggest that DF27 is more probably older in Iberia than central Europe.

Personally, if I knew my father's Y-DNA haplogroup and it turned out to be DF27, I'd be happy to think that at least one ancestral lineage of mine enjoyed a few centuries in the sun before moving to rainy Britain. :biggrin1: But then I love Portugal.

Mark D
11-02-2014, 01:56 PM
Jean, have you considered a greater maritime migration of haplogroup R than what has been usually presented? Most of the migration maps researchers such as Hammer in his FTDNA presentation, show Europe with the Med as a barrier rather than a route for migration, and North Africa hardly ever shown although Gibraltar is only a short hop from Ceuta. it's a heck of a lot shorter distance to travel from the Middle East/Anatolia to Spain either along the southern coast by boat or via the North African littoral. One doesn't have to go island-hopping, although that's certainly a possibility. There are also some hotspots of R1b in North Africa.

It isn't totally outrageous for the Tartessians to have spread Celtic R1b north from Spain.

Jean M
11-02-2014, 02:16 PM
Jean, have you considered a greater maritime migration of haplogroup R than what has been usually presented?

All sorts of things run through my head Mark. The great majority get the chop because they don't fit the evidence.

Neolithic route via Africa to Iberia
If you look at Ancestral Journeys, you will see that I have added a Neolithic route to Iberia via North Africa to the better-known Cardial and LBK. There is evidence for it. But there is no evidence for R1b arriving in Iberia that way. If you look at http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml you will see that R1b-V88 is included there in the proposed flow from the Near East to North Africa. The R1b in Iberia is not V88 or descended from V88 or closely related to V88. DF27 is a on different branch - the European one.

Copper Age route via Africa to Iberia
No evidence at all. All the evidence is that copper-working travelled west along the Med without stopping in N. Africa.


It isn't totally outrageous for the Tartessians to have spread Celtic R1b north from Spain.

The Tartessians are late players in this game. It is handy that we know the name of one of their kings and that it was Celtic. That proves that Proto-Celtic spread into Iberia earlier than La Tene. But we also have the Celtic names of Britain and Ireland being noted by Greeks centuries before La Tene turned up in the British Isles. So we need to look for an earlier culture that covered all the area in which Celtic was later spoken. Bell Beaker is the only one that fits.

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 02:17 PM
Jean et al,

Just got back my WHEATON FGC Prime results. We were U152 L2 and now have moved downstream with a match from Mexico (anonymous and oerhpas Iberian) and a match from Romania. So I know this is for DF27 but might these L2's taken a similar path from what is now central Germany in opposite directions? Then our branch moved either from Iberia across the channel to SW England or through central Germany to Maybe Belgium and across the channel. Wondering out loud......needing some feedabck from some more knowledegable folks here. Perhpas the carrier to England was a Roman soldier????? Wild speculation desired. I find it quite interesting that these branches if U152 took the same migration routes.
Kelly

Jean M
11-02-2014, 02:33 PM
Just got back my WHEATON FGC Prime results. We were U152 L2 and now have moved downstream with a match from Mexico (anonymous and perhaps Iberian) and a match from Romania.

Exciting times! You will find different opinions on U152 around on the forum, and I think R. R. is developing some interesting theories on the different patterns for different subclades of U152, so if I were you, I'd post in the U152 forum and let him sink his teeth into it. :) The pattern does not look like DF27 to me.

razyn
11-02-2014, 03:37 PM
The pattern does not look like DF27 to me.

But not everyone sees DF27 the way you do, through an archaeological/artifact filter (as yet w/o any association whatever with DF27 or subclades of it, earlier than, perhaps, a Basque cemetery of the 6th century AD). I don't disagree with your read of the Stelae (people) or Beaker (people) artifact record; but whether that tracks with DF27 or even R1b is unresolved. Pots aren't people, and if they were they'd be women, who may have made babies with DF27 guys but did not themselves bring it from anywhere or transmit it to anybody. I'd be much more comfortable associating them (the Portuguese makers of tableware) with Patterson's autosomal fluxing to and fro, and leave DF27 the heck out of it unless/until the remains of some of those guys in Beaker burials (wherever) are analyzed, and turn out to be DF27+.

Jean M
11-02-2014, 04:02 PM
But not everyone sees DF27 the way you do.

Kelly was specifically asking about the possibility of L2 taking the path I outlined as possible for DF27. Whatever is actually going on with L2 is best discussed under that heading and Kelly has posted there: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3396-L2-FGC22501-FGC22538-WHEATON-finally-breaks-the-L2*-barrier

Jean M
11-02-2014, 04:15 PM
Pots aren't people, and if they were they'd be women, who may have made babies with DF27 guys but did not themselves bring it from anywhere or transmit it to anybody.

I was inclined to the idea that BB was transmitted to Csepel Island by women until I realised a couple of things.


That whole settlements in Portugal were abandoned at the time BB started to appear in other places.
That DF27 seemed to behave exactly as we would predict if it arrived with BB on Csepel Island from Portugal. Obviously that conclusion comes from modern DNA only. But by the same token you only have modern DNA to make your case.

Heber
11-02-2014, 04:29 PM
It's been a little hard to track down, but Patterson was talking about autosomal DNA refluxing westward (back?) into Iberia... clearly, not DF27 (which isn't autosomal, and IMO wasn't originally Iberian anyhow) fluxing first east to Central Europe, then west to Iberia to pile up in Asturias... and btw there is a group that now wants DF27>A431 to be these folks re-re-refluxing to Armenia as Galatians, and/or Crusaders. I think it's too dang many fluxes, being posited unnecessarily, in order to explain an otherwise fairly regular looking pattern of branching and growth within a male, R1b population originating somewhere east of the Black Sea -- and ultimately becoming quite successful breeders of sons in the western extremities (including islands) of the long Asian peninsula that Europeans like to think of as a continent. I don't know where the DF27 mutation happened -- or even whether that much matters, in what looks like a highly mobile (maritime?) population. But DF27's subclades became widely distributed, with many phylogenetically distinct, and geographically increasingly isolable, patterns -- of which the indisputable success (vis-a-vis other male lines) of certain prolific DF27 subclades, reflected in contemporary Y-DNA percentages in or near Iberia, is but one.

For the benefit of others who may wonder -- the Patterson reflux model was discussed here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2519-What-are-the-implications-of-DF13-s-age-and-early-branching&p=40773&viewfull=1#post40773

Patterson identifies the Bronze Age Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia and reflux using NGS.

Brandt identified the Bronze Age Bell beaker expansion from Iberia using NGS Ancient mtDNA and specifically H.
2849

Cunliffe identified the Bronze Age Bell Beaker Expansion from Iberia in Britain Begins
2850

Busby, Myres and Genographic identified the high frequency of DF27 in Iberia as do the FTDNA Projects
A simple analysis of the ISOGG R1b Phylogenetic Tree shows the rapid expansion DF27, U152 and L21
2851

Grierson identifies the rapid expansion of DF27 probably from Iberia
2852

This suggests it was probably DF27 which expanded from Iberia with the Bell Beakers.
Thanks for the great work you are doing on the DF27 project.

razyn
11-02-2014, 08:13 PM
Most of the modern Iberian DF27 we have actually sampled (in western hemisphere descendants of people with male-line Iberian ancestry) belongs to rather young subclades of DF27, whose parent clades don't look nearly so western. This suggests there are some gaps in the available data. Particularly the data available to Cunliffe (DNA data from Oppenheimer 2007), Busby and Myres (writing before DF27 was discovered, much less had its phylogeny mapped). Looking at more current data, more samples, longer haplotypes -- I don't reach the same conclusions about age; and therefore, cultural-horizon associations -- and as a corollary, direction of movement... insofar as we are talking about DF27 and "Celts," in this thread.

But I'm willing to be convinced.

Webb
11-02-2014, 08:51 PM
I would like to make some muddled issues clearer. DF27 in Iberia is most concentrated in the Catalonia vicinity. While there is some DF27 found in Portugal and eastern Spain, it's numbers there mirror L21. So when we are talking about DF27 in Iberia, we are talking western Spain and the Pyrenees.

Jean M
11-02-2014, 09:16 PM
I have a distribution map somewhere.

[Added] Oh yes - it's Eupedia's. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29099-Am-I-R1b-Df27-my-surname-in-British-and-evidence-Df27-is-popular-in-not-just-Iberia

Jean M
11-02-2014, 09:30 PM
But I'm willing to be convinced.

I would be reluctant to convince anyone on this particular point at this stage. I've made it clear that I'm speculating. It needs testing.

lgmayka
11-02-2014, 11:43 PM
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29099-Am-I-R1b-Df27-my-surname-in-British-and-evidence-Df27-is-popular-in-not-just-Iberia
DF27 actually occurs as far east as Kyiv (Kiev). Kit 153495:

P310+, P311+, P312+, M269+, DF27+, M37-, M65-, L1-, L21-, M153-, M222-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, L176-, Z196-, DF19-

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 12:30 AM
I would like to make some muddled issues clearer. DF27 in Iberia is most concentrated in the Catalonia vicinity. While there is some DF27 found in Portugal and eastern Spain, it's numbers there mirror L21. So when we are talking about DF27 in Iberia, we are talking western Spain and the Pyrenees.

DF27 mirrors L21 in eastern Spain? DF27 in Iberia is western Spain and Pyrenees? What is your source for that information or what am I missing here?

Eastern Spain only has Cataluña, Valencia, Murcia, and Andalucía. The report in the following thread includes the eastern Spanish autonomous community of Valencia only shows L21 at 5.4% yet R-Z195*, R-SRY2627, R-Z220*, R-Z268*, R-Z278*, and R-M153 add up to 30% and that isn't even counting the 16% P312 that is likely DF27 - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3100-DF27-in-Catalonia-Valencia-and-the-Balearic-Islands-%28Spain%29 If Valencia has equal amounts of DF27 as L21 then the L21 percentage should be much higher. The only other autonomous communities in eastern Spain are Murcia and Andalucía.

The Myres et al study shows Andalucía to be S116(xM529xU152) which is P312(xL21x152) to be 52% and L21 to be 8%. It also shows Valencia to be 32.7% and 9% respectively and Portugal to be 44% and 3% respectively. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html

According to The Encomenderos of New Spain by Robert Himmerich y Valencia shows the origin of emigrants to Mexico from Spain and Cataluña and Valencia aren't even enough to be mentioned (page 20 table 2). The highest percentage of them come from southern Spain. Most of the documented genealogies of Mexicans that go back to Spain have Andalucía, Extremadura, and Portugal as the place of origin. Out of 82 distinct lineages in a project for a specific region of Mexico 57% are R1b. The total haplogroup percentages closely mirror the Andalucía percentages at Eupedia which is from published studies. Out of the lineages that tested down to DF27, L21, and U152 there are 9 DF27, 5 U152, and 2 L21. If DF27 mirrored L21 outside of western Spain and the Pyrenees then the L21 results should be much higher. It will be especially evident that DF27 is much higher than L21 among Mexicans, and other Latin Americans who have a majority of paternal ancestry from southern Spain, once the Deep Clade 2.0 panel test is released and taken by Latin Americans.

The Martínez Cruz et al study shows no L21 in Burgos and 11% in La Rioja which is far lower than the 51.8% of M153, SRY2627, and P312(xL21,U152) of which is for the most part really DF27(xM152,SRY2627). http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1 So DF27 is way more than L21 in those regions also.

I don't see any evidence of DF27 in Iberia outside of western Spain and Pyrenees mirroring L21 or DF27 being insignificant in any way. Let me know if I am missing something.

alan
11-03-2014, 01:41 AM
I have mentioned this in the past, but there is a book by Kurt Gerhardt called Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland (1953 - The Bell Beaker People in Middle and West Germany). Gerhardt studied 130 Beaker skulls and made a number of sketches. He dubbed the type "Plano-Occipital Steilkopf". Steilkopf is German for "Steep Head", a reference to the steep incline at the back of the brachycephalic skulls of these Beaker Folk. They are also supposed to have had strong jaws and brow ridges.

I haven't read this book; I've only read about it. Gerhardt supposedly concluded that Beaker skulls were most similar to those found in eastern Anatolia and Armenia.

The problem is, and I think Coon noted this, they are also absent in places like Anatolia and Armenia until the Bronze Age. I do reckon if we are talking about a rapid spread of a single male lineage P312 then its almost like a family trait rather than an ethnic one.

I dont think I have mentioned this but early Irish literature often mentions that the idealised male face using the phrase 'broad above, narrow below' which actually does sound a bit like the beaker type with a broad head but a long narrow face.

Webb
11-03-2014, 01:46 AM
DF27 mirrors L21 in eastern Spain? DF27 in Iberia is western Spain and Pyrenees? What is your source for that information or what am I missing here?

Eastern Spain only has Cataluña, Valencia, Murcia, and Andalucía. The report in the following thread includes the eastern Spanish autonomous community of Valencia only shows L21 at 5.4% yet R-Z195*, R-SRY2627, R-Z220*, R-Z268*, R-Z278*, and R-M153 add up to 30% and that isn't even counting the 16% P312 that is likely DF27 - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3100-DF27-in-Catalonia-Valencia-and-the-Balearic-Islands-%28Spain%29 If Valencia has equal amounts of DF27 as L21 then the L21 percentage should be much higher. The only other autonomous communities in eastern Spain are Murcia and Andalucía.

The Myres et al study shows Andalucía to be S116(xM529xU152) which is P312(xL21x152) to be 52% and L21 to be 8%. It also shows Valencia to be 32.7% and 9% respectively and Portugal to be 44% and 3% respectively. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html

According to The Encomenderos of New Spain by Robert Himmerich y Valencia shows the origin of emigrants to Mexico from Spain and Cataluña and Valencia aren't even enough to be mentioned (page 20 table 2). The highest percentage of them come from southern Spain. Most of the documented genealogies of Mexicans that go back to Spain have Andalucía, Extremadura, and Portugal as the place of origin. Out of 82 distinct lineages in a project for a specific region of Mexico 57% are R1b. The total haplogroup percentages closely mirror the Andalucía percentages at Eupedia which is from published studies. Out of the lineages that tested down to DF27, L21, and U152 there are 9 DF27, 5 U152, and 2 L21. If DF27 mirrored L21 outside of western Spain and the Pyrenees then the L21 results should be much higher. It will be especially evident that DF27 is much higher than L21 among Mexicans, and other Latin Americans who have a majority of paternal ancestry from southern Spain, once the Deep Clade 2.0 panel test is released and taken by Latin Americans.

The Martínez Cruz et al study shows no L21 in Burgos and 11% in La Rioja which is far lower than the 51.8% of M153, SRY2627, and P312(xL21,U152) of which is for the most part really DF27(xM152,SRY2627). http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1 So DF27 is way more than L21 in those regions also.

I don't see any evidence of DF27 in Iberia outside of western Spain and Pyrenees mirroring L21 or DF27 being insignificant in any way. Let me know if I am missing something.

Sorry, I meant western Spain is where DF27 is about the same as L21 and Eastern Spain is where DF27 is most concentrated. I am referencing those very nice maps that Jean mentioned, which can be found on Eupedia. The amount of L21 mirrors that of DF27 in western Spain and Portugal.

alan
11-03-2014, 01:50 AM
DF27 mirrors L21 in eastern Spain? DF27 in Iberia is western Spain and Pyrenees? What is your source for that information or what am I missing here?

Eastern Spain only has Cataluña, Valencia, Murcia, and Andalucía. The report in the following thread includes the eastern Spanish autonomous community of Valencia only shows L21 at 5.4% yet R-Z195*, R-SRY2627, R-Z220*, R-Z268*, R-Z278*, and R-M153 add up to 30% and that isn't even counting the 16% P312 that is likely DF27 - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3100-DF27-in-Catalonia-Valencia-and-the-Balearic-Islands-%28Spain%29 If Valencia has equal amounts of DF27 as L21 then the L21 percentage should be much higher. The only other autonomous communities in eastern Spain are Murcia and Andalucía.

The Myres et al study shows Andalucía to be S116(xM529xU152) which is P312(xL21x152) to be 52% and L21 to be 8%. It also shows Valencia to be 32.7% and 9% respectively and Portugal to be 44% and 3% respectively. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html

According to The Encomenderos of New Spain by Robert Himmerich y Valencia shows the origin of emigrants to Mexico from Spain and Cataluña and Valencia aren't even enough to be mentioned (page 20 table 2). The highest percentage of them come from southern Spain. Most of the documented genealogies of Mexicans that go back to Spain have Andalucía, Extremadura, and Portugal as the place of origin. Out of 82 distinct lineages in a project for a specific region of Mexico 57% are R1b. The total haplogroup percentages closely mirror the Andalucía percentages at Eupedia which is from published studies. Out of the lineages that tested down to DF27, L21, and U152 there are 9 DF27, 5 U152, and 2 L21. If DF27 mirrored L21 outside of western Spain and the Pyrenees then the L21 results should be much higher. It will be especially evident that DF27 is much higher than L21 among Mexicans, and other Latin Americans who have a majority of paternal ancestry from southern Spain, once the Deep Clade 2.0 panel test is released and taken by Latin Americans.

The Martínez Cruz et al study shows no L21 in Burgos and 11% in La Rioja which is far lower than the 51.8% of M153, SRY2627, and P312(xL21,U152) of which is for the most part really DF27(xM152,SRY2627). http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1 So DF27 is way more than L21 in those regions also.

I don't see any evidence of DF27 in Iberia outside of western Spain and Pyrenees mirroring L21 or DF27 being insignificant in any way. Let me know if I am missing something.

I agree. Only the Basques have a really significant amount of L21. I would say that L21 falls as you head west in Iberia and is low in Portugal despite its long term maritime power. That is why I dont think there is any link of L21 and the Iberian Atlantic Bronze Age.

One point- I think a lot of non-Spanish people think of the Basque country as eastern or north-eastern Spain because it is at the east end of the north coast and seems northern too. I have picked up that the Spanish do not consider the Basque area as eastern Spain. Possibly Pyrenean Spain may be a good term to describe both the Basque and Catalonia together.

alan
11-03-2014, 01:55 AM
Sorry, I meant western Spain is where DF27 is about the same as L21 and Eastern Spain is where DF27 is most concentrated. I am referencing those very nice maps that Jean mentioned, which can be found on Eupedia. The amount of L21 mirrors that of DF27 in western Spain and Portugal.

Dont think that is right at all. L21 is about 3% in Atlantic Iberia. I think the L21 pattern is pretty clear that it rises as towards the Pyrenees area and falls to the west to very little. DF27 is big everywhere. In fact remember if you subtract the big late subclade of DF27 among the Basques then the DF27 eastern peak would reduce a lot. I think its pretty clear that L21 rises as France is approached in Iberia and falls towards Iberia. There are probably little peaks at port cities etc too.

alan
11-03-2014, 01:58 AM
Another thing to bear in mind about Iberian L21 is quite a large amount of it derives from one cluster which seems to derive from one man usually dated to the Medieval period. I find the fact that one Medieval person could leave descendants sprinkled across Iberia fascinating. I wonder who he was?

Webb
11-03-2014, 02:05 AM
M
Dont think that is right at all. L21 is about 3% in Atlantic Iberia. I think the L21 pattern is pretty clear that it rises as towards the Pyrenees area and falls to the west to very little. DF27 is big everywhere. In fact remember if you subtract the big late subclade of DF27 among the Basques then the DF27 eastern peak would reduce a lot. I think its pretty clear that L21 rises as France is approached in Iberia and falls towards Iberia. There are probably little peaks at port cities etc too.

According to the maps I mentioned earlier, L21 is 5%-10% in a line along the north of Spain from the Atlantic to the Pyrenees. DF27 is 10-15% in the same area. Minus the pocket of DF27 in North Portugal, the difference between the two in the rest of Portugal is a difference of 5%. That is not much of a difference. You are correct, L21 is found in the Pyrenees as well.

alan
11-03-2014, 02:26 AM
Are the DF27 totals including old P312xL21xU152 which is probably almost entirely DF27 in Iberia.

alan
11-03-2014, 02:37 AM
See I recall L21 being high among the Basques but with a massive drop off just to the west in Cantabria. I also recall a weird pattern that emerged from hobby testing that there were two areas t showed up - the Pyrenees and in the Huelva/Cadiz sort of south-west corner of Spain. The latter IMO is probably a result of the long standing trading port associations of that area which included some Atlantic trade in the late Bronze Age as well as Phoenician port etc. I personally think the Basques are late arrivals in most of Spain and came from Aquitania in Gaul where an early form of the Basque language was certainly spoken in Roman times. So, I suspect L21 was carried into Pyreneen Spain when these Aquitanians migrated into the Pyrenees in late/post-Roman times. That might fit the Medieval age of the Iberian L21 clusters. I therefore tend to conclude that L21 was from Celtic elements mixed in with the Aquitani in SW France.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 04:12 AM
Sorry, I meant western Spain is where DF27 is about the same as L21 and Eastern Spain is where DF27 is most concentrated. I am referencing those very nice maps that Jean mentioned, which can be found on Eupedia. The amount of L21 mirrors that of DF27 in western Spain and Portugal.


M

According to the maps I mentioned earlier, L21 is 5%-10% in a line along the north of Spain from the Atlantic to the Pyrenees. DF27 is 10-15% in the same area. Minus the pocket of DF27 in North Portugal, the difference between the two in the rest of Portugal is a difference of 5%. That is not much of a difference. You are correct, L21 is found in the Pyrenees as well.

Those maps are supposedly from data from published studies but I can't find anything on Galicia or Asturias, which is where the northwestern part of Spain that has the Atlantic coastline is located, so I have no clue where the person that made the DF27 map got those percentages from. I would like to see the source before taking the mapmaker's word for it. The only area left in that northern coastline in Spain is Cantabria, Santander which is S116(xS145,S28) or S116((xM529xU152) or P312(xL21xU152) at 37.4% and L21 or M529(xM222) is 5.3% in Busby et al and Myres et al so that tells me that map is not accurate and DF27 does not mirror L21 along the north of Spain from the Atlantic to the Pyrenees. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

In Martinez et al Cantabria is 50% for P312(xL21xU152), M153, SRY2627 combined and L21 is nonexistent. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...s091/suppl/DC1

Busby et al has multiple regions of Portugal and the lowest DF27 is in south Portugal S116(xS145,S28) or P312(xL21xU152) which is 29% and R-S145(xM222) or L21 is 3.2% so again the published data is in disagreement with the map. http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044/suppl/DC1

The only thing I can agree on is that L21 is lower in western Iberia for the data we have but so far I can't find proof that DF27 is close to the amount of L21 in western Iberia.

R.Rocca
11-03-2014, 04:40 AM
I would like to make some muddled issues clearer. DF27 in Iberia is most concentrated in the Catalonia vicinity. While there is some DF27 found in Portugal and eastern Spain, it's numbers there mirror L21. So when we are talking about DF27 in Iberia, we are talking western Spain and the Pyrenees.

Maciamo over at Europedia uses the same studies as everyone to create his very helpful maps, but he sometimes takes some creative liberties and should not be taken to be 100% accurate. If we looks at the P312 (xU152,L21) numbers of Busby et al 2011...

Central Portugal = 0.380
Portugal, Lisbon = 0.440
North Portugal = 0.345
South Portugal = 0.290
Andalusia, Sevilla = 0.520
Cantabria, Santander = 0.374
East Spain C = 0.497
Castille And Leon, Leon = 0.470

We know that roughly 96-98% of P312(xU152,L21) in Iberia is DF27+, so it is pretty clear that DF27 is not minimal in any area of Iberia and does not go anywhere near as low as L21 anywhere.

Heber
11-03-2014, 05:22 AM
Here is a heat map of Busby for Iberia and SW France.

2860

Highest frequency is Sevilla (52%), which is closest to Tartessos.

I understand Genographic found higher frequency of DF27 in Asturias (75% R1b) majority DF27 some L21 6% and some L11.

"Haplogroup R1b was the reoccurring lineage for paternal ancestry, accounting for nearly 75% of male participants in this group."

Jean M
11-03-2014, 08:50 AM
Maciamo over at Europedia uses the same studies as everyone to create his very helpful maps, but he sometimes takes some creative liberties and should not be taken to be 100% accurate..

Is there a better distribution map of DF27 anywhere? Or could you make one?

Heber
11-03-2014, 09:20 AM
Is there a better distribution map of DF27 anywhere? Or could you make one?

http://www.pinterest.com/R1b-DF27/

Have a look at the map for DF27, DF27 and L21 combined and then Koch Map of Atlantic Europe in the Age of Metals.There is remarkable overlap.

Jean M
11-03-2014, 09:28 AM
My text for the book is now with the publisher. Thank you to all those who commented on the paragraph on DF27, which is part of a section on R1b flows into the British Isles. Perhaps I should have put the whole section up when I solicited comment, but I didn't want L21 discussion to drown out DF27 discussion. ;)



If the pattern seen on the Continent .. is matched in the British Isles, the haplogroup G2a probably predominated in the first farmers, while R1b of some type arrived in the Copper Age. G2a is rare today, but there is no need to picture genocide. The first farmers in the British Isles thrived initially but then encountered problems. Populations seem to have fallen before they were boosted by Bell Beaker arrivals. The latter brought new technologies giving them an economic advantage, which could ensure the better survival of offspring.

Two subclades of R1b1a2a1a2 (P312) seem to echo the two Bell Beaker routes into the Isles that we see in the archaeology, though this can only be speculation in the absence of early Bell Beaker DNA from the British Isles. The predominant one is R1b1a2a1a2c (L21), which probably moved up the Rhine, across the channel and from Britain to Ireland.

R1b1a2a1a2a (DF27) is common in Iberia. So the rare cases of R1b-DF27* (the basal form of DF27) in Ireland today may be a remnant of Bell Beaker movements up the Atlantic. Younger branches of R1b-DF27 probably arrived later in the Isles. If R1b-DF27 carried Bell Beaker pottery from Iberia into the Carpathian Basin, that would explain its present wide range. It has some subclades whose bearers cluster in south-western Europe, but others which are almost exclusive to northern Europeans.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 12:39 PM
Maciamo over at Europedia uses the same studies as everyone to create his very helpful maps, but he sometimes takes some creative liberties and should not be taken to be 100% accurate. If we looks at the P312 (xU152,L21) numbers of Busby et al 2011...

Central Portugal = 0.380
Portugal, Lisbon = 0.440
North Portugal = 0.345
South Portugal = 0.290
Andalusia, Sevilla = 0.520
Cantabria, Santander = 0.374
East Spain C = 0.497
Castille And Leon, Leon = 0.470

We know that roughly 96-98% of P312(xU152,L21) in Iberia is DF27+, so it is pretty clear that DF27 is not minimal in any area of Iberia and does not go anywhere near as low as L21 anywhere.

Galicia, Asturias, Extremadura, Murcia, Castilla La Mancha, and Madrid are missing from all of the studies so the percentages from those regions are completely made up. Is Maciamo the one that created the maps or is it someone else that created the maps for him?

rms2
11-03-2014, 01:14 PM
Here (https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213438250367785646910.0004f6ae1d640ad8434b 1&msa=0) is the link to my Google map of the most relevant Busby stats. Most of the P312xL21,U152 is probably DF27.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 01:36 PM
Here (https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213438250367785646910.0004f6ae1d640ad8434b 1&msa=0) is the link to my Google map of the most relevant Busby stats. Most of the P312xL21,U152 is probably DF27.

Care to add the Martínez Cruz et al percentages? The following is from that study using the following (M153+P312+SRY2627)/Sample Size

DF27=(M153+P312+SRY2627)/Sample Size
NCO Central/Western Navarre....68.33%
NNO North/Western Navarre......66.67%
GUI Gipuskoa..........................68.09%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa....70.18%
ALA Araba/Alava......................47.06%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya.................73.68%
BOC Western Bizkaia................68.42%
CAN Cantabria.........................50.00%
BUR Burgos.............................50.00%
RIO La Rioja............................51.85%
NAR North Aragon....................70.37%

L21
NCO Central/Western Navarre.....15.00%
NNO North/Western Navarre........9.80%
GUI Gipuskoa...........................19.15%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa.....22.81%
ALA Araba/Alava.......................21.57%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya..................12.28%
BOC Western Bizkaia.................10.53%
CAN Cantabria...........................0.00%
BUR Burgos..............................0.00%
RIO La Rioja............................11.11%
NAR North Aragon.....................3.70%

U152
NCO Central/Western Navarre.....0.00%
NNO North/Western Navarre.......0.00%
GUI Gipuskoa...........................0.00%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa.....0.00%
ALA Araba/Alava.......................0.00%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya..................0.00%
BOC Western Bizkaia.................0.00%
CAN Cantabria..........................5.56%
BUR Burgos..............................0.00%
RIO La Rioja............................3.70%
NAR North Aragon.....................0.00%

Heber
11-03-2014, 01:53 PM
Here (https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213438250367785646910.0004f6ae1d640ad8434b 1&msa=0) is the link to my Google map of the most relevant Busby stats. Most of the P312xL21,U152 is probably DF27.

Nice Map. Could you color code the markers to reflect the SNP or use icons?

alan
11-03-2014, 02:14 PM
One thing I do recall about Irish DF27 is a lot of the people had surnames suggestive of Norman or later origins outside Ireland. Some were 'native Irish' but the number drops a lot if you remove the later type of names.

alan
11-03-2014, 02:20 PM
Care to add the Martínez Cruz et al percentages? The following is from that study using the following (M153+P312+SRY2627)/Sample Size

NCO Central/Western Navarre....68.33%
NNO North/Western Navarre......66.67%
GUI Gipuskoa..........................68.09%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa....70.18%
ALA Araba/Alava......................47.06%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya.................73.68%
BOC Western Bizkaia................68.42%
CAN Cantabria.........................50.00%
BUR Burgos.............................50.00%
RIO La Rioja............................51.85%
NAR North Aragon....................70.37%

That is a lot more in line with my understanding of DF27 in Spain. I also think its worth bearing in mind that all P312 derived yDNA drops as you head from the Pyrenees to Atlantic Iberia. However I do not believe this is proportional. It seems to me that L21 drops away far sharper westwards than DF27.

Isidro
11-03-2014, 02:29 PM
Just an add-on; at the beginning of this post there was a discussion about DF27 in Armenia. The crusades were not the only fixated point in time that DF27 could have arrived in the zone.
In the XIII century mercenary Almogavars not only attempted but actually controlled the Cilician Gates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almogavars

alan
11-03-2014, 02:29 PM
My text for the book is now with the publisher. Thank you to all those who commented on the paragraph on DF27, which is part of a section on R1b flows into the British Isles. Perhaps I should have put the whole section up when I solicited comment, but I didn't want L21 discussion to drown out DF27 discussion. ;)

Was a way out of proportion amount of Norman and later surnames not attached to Irish DF27? I dont by any means rule out the possibility that there could have been a DF27 beaker contingent in beaker Ireland but a few years ago they tended to be a majority of Normans and 'planters' names which shouldnt be the case when they were never more than 10 percent of the population except in Ulster. A couple of years back I got the distinct impression that when people with those surnames were removed that the amount of 'native' DF27 looked very small indeed.

Webb
11-03-2014, 02:32 PM
So a good synopsis of the current posts is that the maps on Eupedia show in Northern Spain DF27 and L21 both being at about 5% to 10%. The rest of Western Spain and Portugal, having a difference of, at the most, 10%, minus the spot in Northern Portugal. As you travel towards eastern Spain and France, DF27 quickly increases in numbers. The data that Gerard Corcoran supplied shows that L21 out numbers DF27 in most instances in Spain and DF27 came in via central Europe. Armando's Martinez Cruz et al figures have high percentages, however, the way I read it it is inlcuding all of P312, including M153 and SRY2627, so is L21 included in these numbers? RM2's Busby's figures has DF27 higher in all areas of Spain, but also higher than L21 or U152 in 10 of the 13 sample areas in France as well. So we are still down to DF27's origins being completely of opinion and not fact on this forum.

Mark D
11-03-2014, 02:40 PM
Maybe one of the DF27 administrators can contact the admin for the Galicia Spain project at FTDNA for additional analysis of his members' tests. A quick glance shows that over half of the members there are R1b, about 170 men. Let's see who in that has tested Big Y and who may wish to test further.

I have friends who have Galician heritage (we'll exclude Fidel) and they consider themselves Celtic! I think there may be more to Cunliffe and Koch's Celtic from the West than what many give credit.

alan
11-03-2014, 02:40 PM
Those maps are supposedly from data from published studies but I can't find anything on Galicia or Asturias, which is where the northwestern part of Spain that has the Atlantic coastline is located, so I have no clue where the person that made the DF27 map got those percentages from. I would like to see the source before taking the mapmaker's word for it. The only area left in that northern coastline in Spain is Cantabria, Santander which is S116(xS145,S28) or S116((xM529xU152) or P312(xL21xU152) at 37.4% and L21 or M529(xM222) is 5.3% in Busby et al and Myres et al so that tells me that map is not accurate and DF27 does not mirror L21 along the north of Spain from the Atlantic to the Pyrenees. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

In Martinez et al Cantabria is 50% for P312(xL21xU152), M153, SRY2627 combined and L21 is nonexistent. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...s091/suppl/DC1

Busby et al has multiple regions of Portugal and the lowest DF27 is in south Portugal S116(xS145,S28) or P312(xL21xU152) which is 29% and R-S145(xM222) or L21 is 3.2% so again the published data is in disagreement with the map. http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044/suppl/DC1

The only thing I can agree on is that L21 is lower in western Iberia for the data we have but so far I can't find proof that DF27 is close to the amount of L21 in western Iberia.

That is how I recall it. L21 fell of a cliff to zero immediately west of the Basque or part Basque areas in Cantabria/Santander. That is why I was convinced that even in northern Spain L21 was Basque associated. I suspect that association has to do with a post-Roman pushing of the Aquitani proto-Basques SW France into the Pyrenees.

I think Rich S knows something about one or two Medieval date L21 Iberian clusters. Now L21 is perhaps a little older than the STR variance suggests so possibly are those clusters [ perhaps pushing them into the Roman era. I think this could fit an event of the displacement of the Aquitani. I cannot recall the details though. Perhaps Rich can remember more.

alan
11-03-2014, 02:45 PM
I would also say that a displacement of the Aquitani could account for the drop in L21 between NW France and the Basque area today. Perhaps it was once somewhat more a smooth cline down the west of Gaul.

Other L21, in say Galicia (I know of no stats)might owe something to a small movement of Britons there in the early post-Roman era. That would also explain why there seems to be a gap with zero L21 in Cantabria. I would also add as a third possible source of L21 in SW Spain around Seville that there clearly was important maritime trading ports in that area

alan
11-03-2014, 03:09 PM
Maybe one of the DF27 administrators can contact the admin for the Galicia Spain project at FTDNA for additional analysis of his members' tests. A quick glance shows that over half of the members there are R1b, about 170 men. Let's see who in that has tested Big Y and who may wish to test further.

I have friends who have Galician heritage (we'll exclude Fidel) and they consider themselves Celtic! I think there may be more to Cunliffe and Koch's Celtic from the West than what many give credit.

I have a strong feeling that western and north-west Iberia was Lusitanian and related dialects until Celtic spread from north to south c. 1000BC when Iberia was briefly joined to the north Atlantic trade network which had operate for over a 1000 years prior to its extension into Iberia. A good but badly named book The Atlantic Iron Age explains how Iberia's participation n the Late Bronze Age Atlantic Bronze Age network was more a case of influence reaching Iberia from France and the isles than the opposite direction. The timing IMO -and I believe this is a rare original thought by myself-is very suggestive of a connection with the founding of the Phoenician port at Huelva and the introduction of the sail which IMO may have been adopted by Atlantic Iberia and explain the sudden unexpected connection (after a long period of isolation) of Atlantic Iberia to the areas to the north. I believe this new connection to the north brought the Celtic dialect to Atlantic Iberia from the north.

For much of the period after beaker but prior to 1000BC Atlantic Iberia was isolated and more connected to the Med. than the north Atlantic - something which I think explains the more Italic-like dialects like Lusitatian and evidence of similar linguistic strata in NW Iberia. So, the (relativeley breif and patchy) period where Atlantic Iberia connected with the north Atlantic c. 1000BC looks to me to be a potential explanation why that area has a mix of Lusitanian and Celtic. I dont believe the slow penetration of Urnfield elements from the east as an explanation for Celtic in Atlantic Iberia personally or at least I dont think it is the whole story. I even suspect that if you look at the areas of Iberia which had a lot of Atlantic bronze age material linked with the north Atlantic of Europe it may be that Lusitanian survived in areas where this connection sort of skipped over.

I should probably add that I believe probably that around 2500BC it was Celto-Italic across much of western Europe and then the linguistic shifts to Celtic spread along the trade routes from west-central Europe along both sides of the English channel c. 2000-1000BC before finally being transferred to parts of Atlantic Iberia from NW France c. 1000BC. That IMO mirrors the basic story seen in the metalwork - i.e. west-central European innovations spread to the isles and the continental channel area constantly c. 2000-1000BC, a new Atlantic spin was put on them in the isles and NW France and finally these were sent south to Atlantic Iberia c. 1000BC. I see that basic picture of influences as probably being a material proxy for the flow of linguistic dialect change among the elites who then spread them down the social ladder - easy in what seems to be a top-down demography of these societies and of P312 clades.

Jean M
11-03-2014, 03:16 PM
I have friends who have Galician heritage ... and they consider themselves Celtic!

I suggest that the Celtification of Galicia began with the Atlantic Bronze Age i.e. movement from the British Isles and what is now NW France to Galicia. Later there was some movement of Celtiberi into the region, but the signs of this are limited compared to other parts of western Iberia. The Castro Culture does seem to have absorbed two different influences, one from the Atlantic and another from the Mediterranean (which seems to have brought Lusitanian). If my supposition is well-founded, then it might explain some of the L21 in Galicia.

Jean M
11-03-2014, 03:21 PM
I have a strong feeling that western and north-west Iberia was Lusitanian and related dialects until Celtic spread from north to south c. 1000BC when Iberia was briefly joined to the north Atlantic trade network which had operate for over a 1000 years prior to its extension into Iberia.

So glad that you approve of my idea re the Celtification of Galicia, posted somewhere in this forum recently. But it appears that Lusitanian did not arrive until the Late Bronze Age either. That's the start of the Castro Culture.

Folks, I cannot give you the entire book online immediately. I wish I could in some ways. But it will be a better product in the end for going through the publication process, with expert pairs of eyes giving it the once-over.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 03:23 PM
So a good synopsis of the current posts is that the maps on Eupedia show in Northern Spain DF27 and L21 both being at about 5% to 10%. The rest of Western Spain and Portugal, having a difference of, at the most, 10%, minus the spot in Northern Portugal. As you travel towards eastern Spain and France, DF27 quickly increases in numbers.
The maps on Eupedia for the western portion of northern Spain are completely made up so no that is not a good synopsis.


The data that Gerard Corcoran supplied shows that L21 out numbers DF27 in most instances in Spain and DF27 came in via central Europe. Armando's Martinez Cruz et al figures have high percentages, however, the way I read it it is inlcuding all of P312, including M153 and SRY2627, so is L21 included in these numbers? RM2's Busby's figures has DF27 higher in all areas of Spain, but also higher than L21 or U152 in 10 of the 13 sample areas in France as well.

No, L21 and U152 are not included in those numbers. The numbers are only P312(xL21xU152) plus M153 and SRY2627. Almost everyone with Iberian ancestry that tests positive for P312 and negative for L21 and U152 is DF27. So it is assumed that P312(xL21xU152) = DF27

I will edit that post to include the L21 and U152 percentages which are -

L21
NCO Central/Western Navarre.....15.00%
NNO North/Western Navarre........9.80%
GUI Gipuskoa...........................19.15%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa.....22.81%
ALA Araba/Alava.......................21.57%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya..................12.28%
BOC Western Bizkaia.................10.53%
CAN Cantabria...........................0.00%
BUR Burgos..............................0.00%
RIO La Rioja............................11.11%
NAR North Aragon.....................3.70%

U152
NCO Central/Western Navarre.....0.00%
NNO North/Western Navarre.......0.00%
GUI Gipuskoa...........................0.00%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa.....0.00%
ALA Araba/Alava.......................0.00%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya..................0.00%
BOC Western Bizkaia.................0.00%
CAN Cantabria..........................5.56%
BUR Burgos..............................0.00%
RIO La Rioja............................3.70%
NAR North Aragon.....................0.00%



So we are still down to DF27's origins being completely of opinion and not fact on this forum.
What is the opinion about DF27's origins on this forum?

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 03:25 PM
If my supposition is well-founded, then it might explain some of the L21 in Galicia.
Are there any studies that include the Y-DNA of Galicia?

Jean M
11-03-2014, 03:31 PM
Was a way out of proportion amount of Norman and later surnames not attached to Irish DF27?

You can easily find out for yourself the true state of affairs by looking at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

The first Irish surnames I spotted were Sullivan and Dinsmore. Don't have time to compile a full list.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 03:31 PM
I understand Genographic found higher frequency of DF27 in Asturias (75% R1b) majority DF27 some L21 6% and some L11.

"Haplogroup R1b was the reoccurring lineage for paternal ancestry, accounting for nearly 75% of male participants in this group."

Where can we find the published numbers for DF27 and L21 for the Asturias study?

Heber
11-03-2014, 03:49 PM
Where can we find the published numbers for DF27 and L21 for the Asturias study?

ArmandoR1b, They have published very summary data on their blog.
http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/10/results-from-asturias-spain-add-to-the-genographic-project-human-family-tree/
They have yet to publish the detailed data for Asturias and Mayo.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 03:56 PM
ArmandoR1b, They have published very summary data on their blog.
http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/10/results-from-asturias-spain-add-to-the-genographic-project-human-family-tree/
They have yet to publish the detailed data for Asturias and Mayo.
I had read that article the day after it was published. I don't see anything there on DF27 or L21. Where did you get your DF27 and L21 info about that study?

R.Rocca
11-03-2014, 04:03 PM
So a good synopsis of the current posts is that the maps on Eupedia show in Northern Spain DF27 and L21 both being at about 5% to 10%. The rest of Western Spain and Portugal, having a difference of, at the most, 10%, minus the spot in Northern Portugal. As you travel towards eastern Spain and France, DF27 quickly increases in numbers. The data that Gerard Corcoran supplied shows that L21 out numbers DF27 in most instances in Spain and DF27 came in via central Europe. Armando's Martinez Cruz et al figures have high percentages, however, the way I read it it is inlcuding all of P312, including M153 and SRY2627, so is L21 included in these numbers? RM2's Busby's figures has DF27 higher in all areas of Spain, but also higher than L21 or U152 in 10 of the 13 sample areas in France as well. So we are still down to DF27's origins being completely of opinion and not fact on this forum.

A good synopsis IMO...
1. The Europedia maps are clearly wrong.
2. DF27 in Spain is highest in Basques and Catalans but not trivial anywhere else.
3. The way I understand it, Gerard Corcoran's data is something he put together based on combining FTDNA maps, so they are even more likely to be wrong than the Maciamo ones. You simply can't compare L21, which has been available for testing for 5+ years and is available via Geno 2.0, Big-Y etc. against DF27 which has only been testable for a couple of years and is still not available in Geno 2.0 and Big-Y.
4. The Martinez-Cruz data did test L21 and U152 separately, so it is a valid datapoint when comparing to other P312(xU152,L21) data from Busby etc.
5. We will never know exactly where DF27 first arose, but the only "fact" will come by way of ancient DNA. Even then, the results will be tied to carbon dating, which has its own issues. All else is just a matter of opinion. Academics can take unbiased data (unlike FTDNA data), and come up with more scientific ways of trying to come up with an origin (e.g. diversity, variance), but even that is flawed as it is based on modern samples and cannot take into account population changes since DF27's origin. The best we can do is use deductive reasoning to discuss the possibilities. All we can deduce right now based on all intersecting datapoints is that DF27 frequency in Basque Country and Catalonia is extremely high and that DF27 is more frequent by a substantial amount in all areas of Iberia when compared to its U152 and L21 brothers. If anyone here has claimed to know the origin of DF27 as anything other than deductive reasoning, then I completely missed it.

rms2
11-03-2014, 04:28 PM
Nice Map. Could you color code the markers to reflect the SNP or use icons?

Since each balloon represents a Busby sample location and multiple SNPs, there is really no way to do that.

R.Rocca
11-03-2014, 04:52 PM
Since each balloon represents a Busby sample location and multiple SNPs, there is really no way to do that.

By the way, I had to go through hoops to find the link to your ancient DNA samples map. Any way to convince you to re-add it to your signature? :D

Heber
11-03-2014, 05:17 PM
I had read that article the day after it was published. I don't see anything there on DF27 or L21. Where did you get your DF27 and L21 info about that study?

I have had several exchanges with project members both in Mayo and Asturias and have made several contributions to both projects and this is my understanding of the results.
However we have to wait until the detailed paper is published to get access to the hard data. Spencer Wells was in Dublin for Genetic Genealogy Ireland and did not give a date of publication when asked.

Heber
11-03-2014, 05:53 PM
The data that Gerard Corcoran supplied shows that L21 out numbers DF27 in most instances in Spain and DF27 came in via central Europe.

Webb, The color coded table I showed in the previous post was taken directly from Busby and shows DF27 out numbers L21 in frequency in Iberia, with highest frequency of 52% in Valencia, which is near Tartessos, which is the Koch's proposed epicenter for Celtic from the West. It makes perfect sense to me. I believe that DF27 and L21 used an Atlantic Fringe path to the Isles (with L21 concentrated in Brittany) as depicted by Koch. I am sure they also used the great rivers including the Rhine as proposed by Jean. Are ancestors were not "lemmings" and travelled multiple paths to their final destination.

Webb
11-03-2014, 06:09 PM
Webb, The color coded table I showed in the previous post was taken directly from Busby and shows DF27 out numbers L21 in frequency in Iberia, with highest frequency of 52% in Valencia, which is near Tartessos, which is the Koch's proposed epicenter for Celtic from the West. It makes perfect sense to me. I believe that DF27 and L21 used an Atlantic Fringe path to the Isles (with L21 concentrated in Brittany) as depicted by Koch. I am sure they also used the great rivers including the Rhine as proposed by Jean. Are ancestors were not "lemmings" and travelled multiple paths to their final destination.

Gerard, could you please recheck your heat map insert, as there might be a mistake then.

For Cantabria/Santander you have L21*:0.473, P312*: 0.458, and DF27?:0.374. I am reading this as DF27 is lowest.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 06:32 PM
Webb, The color coded table I showed in the previous post was taken directly from Busby and shows DF27 out numbers L21 in frequency in Iberia, with highest frequency of 52% in Valencia, which is near Tartessos, which is the Koch's proposed epicenter for Celtic from the West. It makes perfect sense to me. I believe that DF27 and L21 used an Atlantic Fringe path to the Isles (with L21 concentrated in Brittany) as depicted by Koch. I am sure they also used the great rivers including the Rhine as proposed by Jean. Are ancestors were not "lemmings" and travelled multiple paths to their final destination.

The highest frequency of 52% in Busby et al and Myres et al is Andalucía, Sevilla.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 06:38 PM
Gerard, could you please recheck your heat map insert, as there might be a mistake then.

For Cantabria/Santander you have L21*:0.473, P312*: 0.458, and DF27?:0.374. I am reading this as DF27 is lowest.

He has the wrong SNP on that column. It should be L11. The L21 column in the Busby table is R-S145*.

The Busby data is from TableS1-Hg frequencies which is the 2nd tab of the spreadsheet at http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp2.xls

alan
11-03-2014, 07:12 PM
I suggest that the Celtification of Galicia began with the Atlantic Bronze Age i.e. movement from the British Isles and what is now NW France to Galicia. Later there was some movement of Celtiberi into the region, but the signs of this are limited compared to other parts of western Iberia. The Castro Culture does seem to have absorbed two different influences, one from the Atlantic and another from the Mediterranean (which seems to have brought Lusitanian). If my supposition is well-founded, then it might explain some of the L21 in Galicia.

Yep I agree with all of that. I also believe that the small but noticeable group of L21 in south-west Spain - I think sort of near Seville - may relate to the Gadiz/Huelva trade port. The Huelva hoard contained some north Atlantic pieces. Its hard to say though because there were important ports in that area for millennia.

vettor
11-03-2014, 07:18 PM
See I recall L21 being high among the Basques but with a massive drop off just to the west in Cantabria. I also recall a weird pattern that emerged from hobby testing that there were two areas t showed up - the Pyrenees and in the Huelva/Cadiz sort of south-west corner of Spain. The latter IMO is probably a result of the long standing trading port associations of that area which included some Atlantic trade in the late Bronze Age as well as Phoenician port etc. I personally think the Basques are late arrivals in most of Spain and came from Aquitania in Gaul where an early form of the Basque language was certainly spoken in Roman times. So, I suspect L21 was carried into Pyreneen Spain when these Aquitanians migrated into the Pyrenees in late/post-Roman times. That might fit the Medieval age of the Iberian L21 clusters. I therefore tend to conclude that L21 was from Celtic elements mixed in with the Aquitani in SW France.

Since Aquitania ( modern Gascony) was ancient Vasconic, then its safe to say that Vasconic represents the early Basques.

yes I agree L21 was carried into spain and that it is now called Pas_Vasco ( means community of the Vasconics )

Clearly the genetic term French-Basque is far more accurate for the origin of the Basques. Also, since Aquitania became English governed for many centuries, I suspect any genetic "iberian" link in England to have come from this area

alan
11-03-2014, 07:23 PM
So glad that you approve of my idea re the Celtification of Galicia, posted somewhere in this forum recently. But it appears that Lusitanian did not arrive until the Late Bronze Age either. That's the start of the Castro Culture.

Folks, I cannot give you the entire book online immediately. I wish I could in some ways. But it will be a better product in the end for going through the publication process, with expert pairs of eyes giving it the once-over.

It was that book The Atlantic Iron Age by Jon Henderson that clarified the whole nature, direction and timing of the Atlantic Bronze Age phenomenon and clearly showed that a north to south direction was most likely. In fact the entire raison d'etre was that the isles/northern France acted as a middleman for central European ideas and metalwork and possibly people to pass down further south along the Atlantic. Basically Atlantic Iberia received 2nd hand central European influence with a north Atlantic spin via the isles and NW France. If that book is ever re-printed it needs to change its title to also include the Atlantic Bronze Age because its the best book on the latter I have ever read. In general the concept of the Atlantic Bronze Age is oftenn presented in a waffley coffee table book kind of way which people lap up because it is a picturesque idea. However that book really was the one that made me understand it a lot better. However, the idea of late bronze age influence and even Celticisation from Atlantic France in Atlantic Iberia has been around a long time but went out of fashion. I think it deserves a revival.

Jean M
11-03-2014, 07:34 PM
It was that book The Atlantic Iron Age by Jon Henderson that clarified the whole nature, direction and timing of the Atlantic Bronze Age phenomenon and clearly showed that a north to south direction was most likely.

Rings a bell. I think you recommended it before, but I have been too pressed for time to read everything. I'm sitting here exhausted in a kind of fortress of books. But I'm reading it now on Amazon, and I don't see any stress on north to south movement.


However, the idea of late bronze age influence and even Celticisation from Atlantic France in Atlantic Iberia has been around a long time but went out of fashion.

Really? Who suggested it?

alan
11-03-2014, 07:36 PM
You can easily find out for yourself the true state of affairs by looking at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

The first Irish surnames I spotted were Sullivan and Dinsmore. Don't have time to compile a full list.

Just had a look and to be honest now the apparent over-representation of non-native names is not so apparent and there are quite a few native names among the group. Its a mix of 'planter', Norman and native Irish names. I would still say that Ireland wide around half of them are not pre-Norman including a large majority in the north. However, it would be wrong to deny that there is not a decent proportion of definite or possibly native pre-Norman names. I dont see an obvious pattern among the native Irish names - I dont have time to chew over these names or look up the tribal origins of them to see if there is a pattern but there are some posters here who do have that knowledge.

alan
11-03-2014, 07:40 PM
Rings a bell. I think you recommended it before, but I have been too pressed for time to read everything. I'm sitting here exhausted in a kind of fortress of books. But I'm reading it now on Amazon, and I don't see any stress on north to south movement.



Really? Who suggested it?

I think its briefly mentioned in that book but it is possible it is on one of those ekeltoi Iberian-Celtic papers. Sorry but I cannot remember. It was definitely mentioned in something I read as I was interested by the concept. The Atlantic Iron Age book doesnt scream out the north to south thing or have a nice map with arrows - its just implicit in the details of his dating of the Iberian Atlantic Iron Age compared to further north.

alan
11-03-2014, 07:47 PM
Jean-unfortunately I dont take organised notes - this big picture dna-linguistic-archaeology combo stuff is very interesting but it would be to much like work and lose its relaxing hobby aspect for me if I was less lazy/more systematic. In fact to be honest I think I tend to post links and ideas on this site as a kind of substitute for taking notes LOL

Jean M
11-03-2014, 07:49 PM
The Atlantic Iron Age book doesnt scream out the north to south thing or have a nice map with arrows - its just implicit in the details of his dating of the Iberian Atlantic Iron Age compared to further north.

Actually I have just twigged that I did look at Henderson and cited his chapter three, along with Cunliffe and Kristiansen, for the general concept of the Atlantic Bronze Age. He does give a lot more detail than my other two references. Thank you for recommending it. (My memory is just sagging under the pressure.)

alan
11-03-2014, 07:51 PM
Rings a bell. I think you recommended it before, but I have been too pressed for time to read everything. I'm sitting here exhausted in a kind of fortress of books. But I'm reading it now on Amazon, and I don't see any stress on north to south movement.



Really? Who suggested it?

Digging into my dreadful memory banks I think it was French archaeologists - perhaps in the 1960s but dont quote me on that. I think it was mentioned with a bracketed reference. I may have looked it up and googled to see if it was online but it either wasnt or was in French- I dont recall getting anywhere on that one and I am pretty sure I did try as I was interested in the north-south concept.

alan
11-03-2014, 07:57 PM
Actually I have just twigged that I did look at Henderson and cited his chapter three, along with Cunliffe and Kristiansen, for the general concept of the Atlantic Bronze Age. He does give a lot more detail than my other two references. Thank you for recommending it.

No problem. Its a deceptively good book and a deceptive title. I actually think despite the title the concept of an Atlantic Bronze Age is infinitely more convincing than the Atlantic Iron Age concept which IMO has almost no basis and is based on an impression caused by similar geographical coastal features. There is some unusually detailed discussion on the relative chronologies of the metal/settlement evidence but its kind of hidden in the detail. He should have stuck in a table with dates by region or a map. I have regained some interest in the Atlantic Bronze Age concept as a result of that book. Definitely worth a read or two IMO. Think I read it a second time before I realised some of the implications of the book.

alan
11-03-2014, 08:04 PM
I wouldnt rule out the possibility of DF27 involved in Ross Island which I think Jean suggested although its speculative.

Jean-a month or two ago I was at a library and photocopied the pottery section of the Ross Island monograph with an intention of emailing it to you. I will have to carry out a test trench in my study to find it though. If you already have it let me know. Its not wonderfully conclusive but its useful to have and is not available online.

ArmandoR1b
11-03-2014, 08:04 PM
it is now called Pas_Vasco ( means community of the Vasconics )

You're still at it? It's País not Pas. País means country no matter what you want to believe but at least spell it with an i. The confusion about a country within a country is why so many Spaniards and Hispanics have posted the question ¿Por qué se llama País Vasco? all over the Internet. Try googling that. You are even more confused because you can't accept the truth. Just because it is an autonomous community doesn't mean the definition of país is community. The country (país) of Spain consists of many autonomous communities and only the País Vasco has país in it's name.

Jean M
11-03-2014, 08:32 PM
Jean-a month or two ago I was at a library and photocopied the pottery section of the Ross Island monograph with an intention of emailing it to you.

Very thoughtful of you Alan, but not to worry now. I should have said that my deadline was drawing near. I don't actually suggest in the coming book that the Ross Island BB specifically came up the Atlantic. I mention clues to some early movement in that direction, such as an earring or pendant found at Benraw, very similar to a pair of earrings found at Estremoz in Portugal, and the two-hole wrist bracers. But this is not a huge part of the book.

vettor
11-03-2014, 09:17 PM
You're still at it? It's País not Pas. País means country no matter what you want to believe but at least spell it with an i. The confusion about a country within a country is why so many Spaniards and Hispanics have posted the question ¿Por qué se llama País Vasco? all over the Internet. Try googling that. You are even more confused because you can't accept the truth. Just because it is an autonomous community doesn't mean the definition of país is community. The country (país) of Spain consists of many autonomous communities and only the País Vasco has país in it's name.

ok, Pais , same meaning as the italian Paese ...both mean community/area/zone/town/city/region in regards to a certain similar people .
call it country if you like, it still ultimately means what I said.

Pais Vasco ..is community/region/area etc of ancient Vasconic people. It means, they originate from vasconic people

Vasco does not mean a tub as some castilians seems to think ( a sunken type of valley )

Heber
11-03-2014, 09:58 PM
Gerard, could you please recheck your heat map insert, as there might be a mistake then.

For Cantabria/Santander you have L21*:0.473, P312*: 0.458, and DF27?:0.374. I am reading this as DF27 is lowest.

Webb, LOL. This is a lesson to me not to respond to an post in the middle of the night, using a Phablet and a user interface which is useless compared to a desktop version. I need to get a life. Three days at the Dublin Web Summit and a break from Genetic Genealogy. Just what the doctor ordered.:). Thanks for pointing that out.

Mike McG
11-03-2014, 11:52 PM
Just had a look and to be honest now the apparent over-representation of non-native names is not so apparent and there are quite a few native names among the group. Its a mix of 'planter', Norman and native Irish names. I would still say that Ireland wide around half of them are not pre-Norman including a large majority in the north. However, it would be wrong to deny that there is not a decent proportion of definite or possibly native pre-Norman names. I dont see an obvious pattern among the native Irish names - I dont have time to chew over these names or look up the tribal origins of them to see if there is a pattern but there are some posters here who do have that knowledge.

Alan

I do think you can necessarily draw the conclusion that a majority of the DF27 in Ireland is of recent (after surnames) Norman origin. Big Y and FGC is providing additional clarification on the DF27 tree. If you look at the Big Y DF27 spreadsheet in the Yahoo Group, in one of the recent versions there are 88 DF27 individuals who split evenly between Z195+ and 'ZZ12_1+'. Many of the individuals with what I would consider to be Northern Irish (and some Scots) “native” names, rather than Norman names, are in the Z195+, L165+ group.

Some of what were DF27* groups are getting detter defined, There are a couple of Rox2 (Scots and English)guys in the 'ZZ12_1+' group although I believe several others Rox2 guys tested with FGC with additional definition of the group.

The group I fall in, the Dwyer/Ryan (STR) Group, appears to be mainly from Southern Ireland and is thought to probably have been from Thomond in Munster. There are 6 individuals (or about 7% of the total individuals in the DF27 spreadsheet) from this DR Group listed under 'ZZ12_1+', 'ZZ20_1+', ZZ19_1+' who share 28 unique SNPs. Based on STRs the MCRA of the DRG is 8-900 years ago. Based on the 28 SNPs between the original progenitor and the MRCA it appears this group may have been isolated somewhere for several thousand years before the MCRA.

In general there appear to be a number of distinct fairly ancient DF27 sub clades in the British Isles. It is difficult to know exactly the path of each of their ancestors into the Isles.

I should qualify the above to say the DF27 spreadsheet appears to have an extreme British Isles bias. Also, obviously it only covers a very small percentage of the total DF27+ population so there is probably a lot more to learn. Lastly, there appears to be a lot of variation between whether a group of individuals of the same surname are related by one MCRA or not in say the last 1,000 years, so any conclusion between an individual surname and an ancient location could be misleading.

Mike McG

Jean M
11-04-2014, 09:51 AM
In general there appear to be a number of distinct fairly ancient DF27 sub clades in the British Isles. It is difficult to know exactly the path of each of their ancestors into the Isles.

That was the impression that I had. I felt it best not to try to pin things down too much, for example by suggesting that some might have arrived with Vikings or Normans. In my draft text (that started this thread), I said "R1b-FGC11397 subclade, which is distinctly northern. Its distribution and estimated age suggests that it spread with the Vikings." But I have removed that. There are too many possibilities. I ended up just talking vaguely about 'later' arrival for the subclades.

Webb
11-04-2014, 03:46 PM
France Var (Myres) 43.67 6.3
N = 68 U106 =5.9% P312xL21,U152 = 35.3% L21 = 2.9% U152 = 19.1%


France Vaucluse (Myres) 44.31 4.72
N = 61 U106 = 6.6% P312xL21,U152 = 29.5% L21 = 8.2% U152 = 14.8%


Southwest France (Busby) 43.604363 1.4429513
N = 83 U106 = 3.6% P312xL21,U152 =31.3% L21 = 7.2% U152 = 10.8%


Southeast France (Busby) 43.2976116 5.3810421
N = 45 U106 = 0% P312xL21,U152 = 26.7% L21 = 11.1% U152 = 11.1%


South Central France (Busby) 45.7771681 3.0824177
N = 89 U106 = 3.4% P312xL21,U152 = 22.5% L21 = 4.5% U152 = 16.9%


France South (Myres) 43.832 5.425
N = 38 U106 = 7.9% P312xL21,U152 = 28.9% L21 = 7.9% U152 = 10.5%


France - Rhone Mouth (Myres) 43.67 5.27
N = 207 U106 = 8.2% P312xL21,U152 = 32.4% L21 = 6.3% U152 = 16.9%


Northwest France (Busby) 48.1117611 -1.6802654
N = 115 U106 = 3.5% P312xL21,U152 = 20.9% L21 = 40% U152 = 6.1%


North Central France (Busby) 48.8566667 2.3509871
N = 91 U106 = 7.7% P312xL21,U152 = 17.6% L21 = 9.9% U152 = 14.3%


North France (Busby) 50.6371834 3.0630174
N = 68 U106 = 8.8% P312xL21,U152 = 17.6% L21 = 10.3% U152 = 17.6%


France East (Myres) 46.783 4.850
N = 25 U106 = 12% P312xL21,U152 = 24% L21 = 8% U152 = 16%


East France (Busby) 48.5829331 7.7437488
N = 80 U106 = 15% P312xL21,U152 = 7.5% L21 = 5% U152 = 22.5%


France - Alpes De haute Provence (Busby) 44.46 6.2
N = 31 U106 = 12.9% P312xL21,U152 = 29% L21 = 19.4% U152 = 12.9%


Above are the Busby and Myres resutls from their respective studies. DF27 is more numerous in 10 of the 13 regions sampled. I would like to talk about this. There is so much talk about Iberia and DF27. Why does no one ever talk about France and DF27?

razyn
11-04-2014, 04:54 PM
Why does no one ever talk about France and DF27?

Because hobby testing of DNA is illegal in France?

rms2
11-04-2014, 05:00 PM
By the way, I had to go through hoops to find the link to your ancient DNA samples map. Any way to convince you to re-add it to your signature? :D

I haven't had the chance to add those latest results from Hungary. I will add them as soon as I can and put a link to the map in my signature.

ArmandoR1b
11-04-2014, 05:41 PM
Above are the Busby and Myres resutls from their respective studies. DF27 is more numerous in 10 of the 13 regions sampled. I would like to talk about this. There is so much talk about Iberia and DF27. Why does no one ever talk about France and DF27?

That is interesting information and definitely should be talked about and it has been in other threads. Richard Rocca, among others has commented about France being high in DF27 it in the past.

The Myres and Busby studies also have Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone) P312xL21,U152 = 35.3% which would be the highest for France in those studies.

But it is still less than the percentages of Iberia per the Busby et al study. The following screenshot is from the results of the Busby spreadsheet reordered with DF27 percentages from highest to lowest and there are 7 regions above Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone).

http://i.imgur.com/R2pGj9t.png

The percentages for the Pyrenees found in the Martínez Cruz et al study, which included some regions of France, are the highest in any study. Bizkaia/Vizcaya, Soule, Aragon, Gipuskoa and Navarre are all above 66%.

http://i.imgur.com/0CMAxOB.png


edit: I replaced the Martínez Cruz et al study because it had an error with the U152 percentages. They were missing the L2 and L20 amounts which have now been added.

Webb
11-04-2014, 05:56 PM
Because hobby testing of DNA is illegal in France?

Sputter...sputter...sputter....

Razyn: 1, Webb: 0

Mike McG
11-04-2014, 06:50 PM
France Var (Myres) 43.67 6.3
N = 68 U106 =5.9% P312xL21,U152 = 35.3% L21 = 2.9% U152 = 19.1%


France Vaucluse (Myres) 44.31 4.72
N = 61 U106 = 6.6% P312xL21,U152 = 29.5% L21 = 8.2% U152 = 14.8%


Southwest France (Busby) 43.604363 1.4429513
N = 83 U106 = 3.6% P312xL21,U152 =31.3% L21 = 7.2% U152 = 10.8%


Southeast France (Busby) 43.2976116 5.3810421
N = 45 U106 = 0% P312xL21,U152 = 26.7% L21 = 11.1% U152 = 11.1%


South Central France (Busby) 45.7771681 3.0824177
N = 89 U106 = 3.4% P312xL21,U152 = 22.5% L21 = 4.5% U152 = 16.9%


France South (Myres) 43.832 5.425
N = 38 U106 = 7.9% P312xL21,U152 = 28.9% L21 = 7.9% U152 = 10.5%


France - Rhone Mouth (Myres) 43.67 5.27
N = 207 U106 = 8.2% P312xL21,U152 = 32.4% L21 = 6.3% U152 = 16.9%


Northwest France (Busby) 48.1117611 -1.6802654
N = 115 U106 = 3.5% P312xL21,U152 = 20.9% L21 = 40% U152 = 6.1%


North Central France (Busby) 48.8566667 2.3509871
N = 91 U106 = 7.7% P312xL21,U152 = 17.6% L21 = 9.9% U152 = 14.3%


North France (Busby) 50.6371834 3.0630174
N = 68 U106 = 8.8% P312xL21,U152 = 17.6% L21 = 10.3% U152 = 17.6%


France East (Myres) 46.783 4.850
N = 25 U106 = 12% P312xL21,U152 = 24% L21 = 8% U152 = 16%


East France (Busby) 48.5829331 7.7437488
N = 80 U106 = 15% P312xL21,U152 = 7.5% L21 = 5% U152 = 22.5%


France - Alpes De haute Provence (Busby) 44.46 6.2
N = 31 U106 = 12.9% P312xL21,U152 = 29% L21 = 19.4% U152 = 12.9%


Above are the Busby and Myres resutls from their respective studies. DF27 is more numerous in 10 of the 13 regions sampled. I would like to talk about this. There is so much talk about Iberia and DF27. Why does no one ever talk about France and DF27?

Webb

You are probably correct concerning there being a significant percentage of DF27+ individuals in France , however, part of the problem is that DF27 was not tested in these studies nor in GENO 2. Also FTDNA seems to also be ignoring DF27 in their YSNP tree and are not suggesting that it be tested to their clients. As a result DF27+ appears under represented in many projects. For example looking at FTDNA's French_Heritage_DNA group there are 3479 members. On the SNP page there are 951 without a “Haplogroup” listed. The remaining individuals breakdown as follows:

1462 R1b
76 R1a
359 I
131 E
118 J
96 G
34 Others (combined T, Q, N, O, C, L.)

So R1b is about 58% of the individuals with a “Haplogroup” listed.

If my count is correct it appears that in this "French" group of almost 3500 individuals there have only been 17 who tested positive for DF27, but 124 wh tested positive for L21. I did not attempt to check for all the SNPS below DF27 nor nor those below L21 that would have added to the count.

Mike McG

R.Rocca
11-04-2014, 07:40 PM
Sputter...sputter...sputter....

Razyn: 1, Webb: 0

Doesn't really matter much since academic testing is not illegal in France. The real problem is that DF27 is still "too new" for academia.

ArmandoR1b
11-04-2014, 08:12 PM
Webb

You are probably correct concerning there being a significant percentage of DF27+ individuals in France , however, part of the problem is that DF27 was not tested in these studies nor in GENO 2. Also FTDNA seems to also be ignoring DF27 in their YSNP tree and are not suggesting that it be tested to their clients. As a result DF27+ appears under represented in many projects. For example looking at FTDNA's French_Heritage_DNA group there are 3479 members. On the SNP page there are 951 without a “Haplogroup” listed. The remaining individuals breakdown as follows:

1462 R1b
76 R1a
359 I
131 E
118 J
96 G
34 Others (combined T, Q, N, O, C, L.)

So R1b is about 58% of the individuals with a “Haplogroup” listed.

If my count is correct it appears that in this "French" group of almost 3500 individuals there have only been 17 who tested positive for DF27, but 124 wh tested positive for L21. I did not attempt to check for all the SNPS below DF27 nor nor those below L21 that would have added to the count.

Mike McG

Even though the Busby, Myres, and Martínez Cruz studies did not test for DF27 for the most part P312xL21,U152 is the same as DF27 because the percentage of P312 that is not DF27, U152, or L21 is extremely low in western Europe.

You are using the French_Heritage_DNA incorrectly. They have everyone grouped by STR matching. So what you need to do is count how many groups there are. Then count how many P312 positive groups have been tested for DF27 and for L21 then figure out how many of those are positive for DF27 and how many of those are positive for L21. If a lower percentage of P312 positive groups have tested for DF27 than for L21 then the results are obviously going to be skewed and they likely are. I might attempt that myself.

What Geno 2.0 did test for is P310, U106, L21, U152, Z195, Z225, L617, L86, CTS4528, DF19. Therefore, it was mostly those that are DF27+Z195- that showed up as terminal for P310 in the Geno 2.0 test. That was 5% of all of the participants. Plus there were a lot of SNPs below Z195 that Geno 2.0 tested for. If we could get the results of France with those SNPs then we would have a good idea what percent of France is DF27.

MJost
11-04-2014, 09:58 PM
I like this map.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr%2FADN%2FR1bsousgroupes.htm&edit-text=

The last large map has clickable SNP link to show the various amounts of the SNP.

MJost

ArmandoR1b
11-04-2014, 10:18 PM
I like this map.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr%2FADN%2FR1bsousgroupes.htm&edit-text=

The last large map has clickable SNP link to show the various amounts of the SNP.

MJost

This is data from FTDNA projects only and we have no way to know how accurate the data is.

R.Rocca
11-05-2014, 02:14 PM
This is data from FTDNA projects only and we have no way to know how accurate the data is.

And to go one step further, we know for sure that the data is not accurate and that the approach has multiple flaws.

MJost
11-05-2014, 03:02 PM
I didn't check the details. No one complained back when it was first posted last fall. I just liked the presentation method.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=47311&viewfull=1#post47311

MJost

razyn
11-05-2014, 03:06 PM
And to go one step further, we know for sure that the data is not accurate and that the approach has multiple flaws.

But to go two steps less far, it's the only sample we know that (a) has some of these parts of Europe represented, and (b) is being continuously updated. It includes (for example) SNPs discovered since Busby et al was published (let alone researched and prepared, for a couple of years before that); and it makes visible not only the new SNPs, but a long list of STR markers -- either of which may be practiced upon by TMRCA estimators. And so on.

On the "dance with the gal that brung ya" principle, I think the FTDNA project data are peachy keen. When better data come along, I may drop my own DF27 haplogroup project at FTDNA, like the worn-out cow she is. Always reserving the option to be a fickle bastard. But at the moment, she looks better to me (for mapping DF27, the "dance" under discussion here) than any of the available alternatives.

ArmandoR1b
11-05-2014, 03:36 PM
I didn't check the details. No one complained back when it was first posted last fall. I just liked the presentation method.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=47311&viewfull=1#post47311

MJost

For the regions that we have data from studies for the percentages are in the same ballpark, at least for Iberia and southern France. The problem is how many of the genealogies were verified? That is hard to do. Tolan is mentioned as having created the maps. Is he willing to provide the spreadsheets that the data is from?

ArmandoR1b
11-05-2014, 03:59 PM
I had an error for the Martínez Cruz U152 percentages. I hadn't added L2 and L20 to the U152 totals. I apologize for the error. I would appreciate it if an admin would correct my posts #91 and #104 with the following -

U152
NCO Central/Western Navarre.....5.66%
NNO North/Western Navarre.......0.00%
GUI Gipuskoa...........................5.88%
GSO South/Western Gipuskoa.....0.00%
ALA Araba/Alava.......................0.00%
BBA Bizkaia/Vizcaya..................3.92%
BOC Western Bizkaia.................3.51%
CAN Cantabria..........................5.56%
BUR Burgos..............................5.26%
RIO La Rioja............................3.70%
NAR North Aragon.....................3.7%

I also updated post #138 with the Martínez Cruz screenshot to include the changes.

MitchellSince1893
11-05-2014, 05:13 PM
I didn't check the details. No one complained back when it was first posted last fall. I just liked the presentation method.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=47311&viewfull=1#post47311

MJost

Don't recall what was said last Fall but in February of this year there was a lot of discussion about the methodology of these maps. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1957-Map-of-L21-in-France/page6

MJost
11-05-2014, 05:48 PM
Don't recall what was said last Fall but in February of this year there was a lot of discussion about the methodology of these maps. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1957-Map-of-L21-in-France/page6

Yes and he explained his methods in this post and a few follow ups with RichS.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1957-Map-of-L21-in-France&p=29733&viewfull=1#post29733

MJost

ArmandoR1b
11-05-2014, 07:14 PM
It sure would be nice if Busby were to redo his study with some more regions, more participants, and more current SNP markers including DF27.

Webb
11-05-2014, 07:53 PM
I agree that it would be nice to see a very comprehensive study done in France. L21, L238, DF99, DF19, U152, and DF27 all share the same parent. Now, this is my opinion. The apple can only fall as far off from the tree as the longest branch. I really believe somewhere central is the birthplace for the three large clades as well as DF19 and DF99. L238 is a bit of a mystery, but if you take L238 at P312's most north/easterly extreme and DF27 at P312's most south/westerly extreme. This coupled with L21 in P312's most north/westerly extreme and U152 in P312's most south/easterly extreme, you are looking at a point of impact somewhere in the center. Could be the Rhine Delta. Could be the headwaters of the Rhine and/or Danube. Could be in the Alps. Just my opinion.

razyn
11-05-2014, 08:35 PM
About three days ago, and eight pages back on this thread, I said this -- based on watching DF27's phylogeny grow in bushiness, spread in geographical coverage, and continue to look less and less Iberian (compared with 2011 -- when M153 was directly under P312, and a few thousand P312* people were getting a negative test result for it each year):


Most of the modern Iberian DF27 we have actually sampled... belongs to rather young subclades of DF27, whose parent clades don't look nearly so western.

Coincidentally, that was the same day Mark Jost sent me a preliminary draft of his TMRCA estimates for DF27 and most of its subclades we have gotten around to organizing into separate groups (in the FTDNA R1b-DF27 haplogroup project). Just for purpose of illustration: under Z295, the North-South Cluster (known for about eight years, on the basis of several STR off-modals) divides most obviously into a more "north" branch, CTS4065 (and subclades), and a more "south" branch, Z216 (and subclades, including M153). If we look at Mark's new chart https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNU01FclFTeFBBX0U/view?pli=1 we see that the CTS4065 branch (in France, England, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Bohemia and elsewhere) has an Intraclade Founder's Modal Age of 3,523.7 YBP (plus or minus 901 years); whereas the Z216/Z278 branch (overwhelmingly of Iberian descent) has an Intraclade Founder's Modal Age of 2,583.9 YBP (plus or minus 835.2 years).

I have no desire to get into a debate about the value, or lack thereof, of STR variance; the length of a generation for purpose of TMRCA calculation; the SNP mutation rate "constant," or similar matters. There is a thread here for that, including "STR Wars" in its subject line. Regardless of whether these specific TMRCA dates are correct, the Standard Deviation too large or small, the test subjects insufficiently randomized, or their paper trails to ancestral homelands imperfectly vetted -- we have some considerable trove of data; they are telling us something; and the more they tell me, the less I see a western European origin for DF27.

dp
11-05-2014, 09:40 PM
It sure would be nice if Busby were to redo his study with some more regions, more participants, and more current SNP markers including DF27.

I look forward to Y-chromosome NGS testing being carried out to a comparable extent that complete mtgenome testing and 500,000+ bp autosomal tests seem to be coming down the scientific pipeline. After that hurdle maybe the scientist can try to see what secrets the X allosome has.
dp :-)

rms2
11-06-2014, 01:35 AM
By the way, I had to go through hoops to find the link to your ancient DNA samples map. Any way to convince you to re-add it to your signature? :D

I updated the map and added it to my signature.

The new Google Maps is a pain in the butt, btw. I liked the old one way way better. This new one is really hard to deal with. Hope I got those Hungarian locations right. If you see any errors, let me know please.

GoldenHind
11-06-2014, 07:27 AM
Even though the Busby, Myres, and Martínez Cruz studies did not test for DF27 for the most part P312xL21,U152 is the same as DF27 because the percentage of P312 that is not DF27, U152, or L21 is extremely low in western Europe.



I think it is an error to assume nearly all of P312(XL21,U152) is DF27+. Henry Zenker, who was a DF27 expert, used to estimate that the amount of P312(XL21,152) which was DF27+ was somewhere around 80%. This was based on monitoring DF27 results when he ran the P312 Project. However this amount was Europe wide, and the current data suggests the distribution of DF27 is considerably different than that of DF19, DF99, L238 and P312**, although there is obviously a large area where they overlap. I think a more likely scenario is that in some areas where the smaller subclades are scarce to nonexistent, such as Iberia, the portion of P312(XL21,U152) which is DF27+ is close to 100%, while in other parts of Europe the DF27 percentage will be closer to 50 or 60%.

We have pretty reliable data on this issue in the Genes of the Netherlands project, which unlike the FTDNA data, is a scientific sampling, and was composed of 500 males. Although DF27 wasn't tested, Z195 was, as well as the other P312 subclades. The amount of P312*, which in this case could only be DF27(XZ195) or P312**, was extremely small: 5 or 1%. Even if one assumes all five of this group is DF27(XZ195) and none are P312**, the proportions of P312(XL21,U152) turn out to be 65% DF27 vs. 35% DF19 and DF99 (no L238 was found). Of course if some of the uncategorized group is P312**, the amount there of P312(XL21,U152) which is DF27 becomes even smaller.

ArmandoR1b
11-06-2014, 02:07 PM
I think it is an error to assume nearly all of P312(XL21,U152) is DF27+. Henry Zenker, who was a DF27 expert, used to estimate that the amount of P312(XL21,152) which was DF27+ was somewhere around 80%. This was based on monitoring DF27 results when he ran the P312 Project. However this amount was Europe wide, and the current data suggests the distribution of DF27 is considerably different than that of DF19, DF99, L238 and P312**, although there is obviously a large area where they overlap. I think a more likely scenario is that in some areas where the smaller subclades are scarce to nonexistent, such as Iberia, the portion of P312(XL21,U152) which is DF27+ is close to 100%, while in other parts of Europe the DF27 percentage will be closer to 50 or 60%.

We have pretty reliable data on this issue in the Genes of the Netherlands project, which unlike the FTDNA data, is a scientific sampling, and was composed of 500 males. Although DF27 wasn't tested, Z195 was, as well as the other P312 subclades. The amount of P312*, which in this case could only be DF27(XZ195) or P312**, was extremely small: 5 or 1%. Even if one assumes all five of this group is DF27(XZ195) and none are P312**, the proportions of P312(XL21,U152) turn out to be 65% DF27 vs. 35% DF19 and DF99 (no L238 was found). Of course if some of the uncategorized group is P312**, the amount there of P312(XL21,U152) which is DF27 becomes even smaller.

Correction accepted. I should have stated extremely low in Iberia and likely in southern France close to the Pyrenees. That also means that DF27 in the rest of France could be even lower than what is in the Busby et al. study.

Even though the FTDNA projects are not scientific studies I am still looking forward to the SNP-packs to be released soon so that more people can get their terminal SNP defined and we can at least get an idea which more newly defined SNPs are within which populations.

Mark D
11-07-2014, 12:03 AM
..Even though the FTDNA projects are not scientific studies I am still looking forward to the SNP-packs to be released soon so that more people can get their terminal SNP defined and we can at least get an idea which more newly defined SNPs are within which populations.

I know this is now off-thread, but absolutely no one responded to my post from Oct 15. Can one of our administrators (Richard, Stephen, Mike or whoever) please explain what is happening with the new SNP panels FTDNA announced at the admin conference?

What kind of panels are they talking about? What SNPs will be tested? Can (or did) the administrators pick some but not others? Can any of us ask for certain SNPs to be tested by FTDNA rather than go through Krahn's lab? Is this in preparation for Deep Clade 2? Does it go beyond Big Y or simply include some of the novel variants (or singletons) that came out of Big Y?

I'm simply trying to figure out where to go from Big Y, with my 31 novel variants and 17 singletons. I have no clue how they fit into the scheme of things, other than David's super spreadsheet that simply matches them up to everyone else's.

Thanks. I appreciate all help you guys offer.

GoldenHind
11-07-2014, 12:57 AM
I know this is now off-thread, but absolutely no one responded to my post from Oct 15. Can one of our administrators (Richard, Stephen, Mike or whoever) please explain what is happening with the new SNP panels FTDNA announced at the admin conference?

What kind of panels are they talking about? What SNPs will be tested? Can (or did) the administrators pick some but not others? Can any of us ask for certain SNPs to be tested by FTDNA rather than go through Krahn's lab? Is this in preparation for Deep Clade 2? Does it go beyond Big Y or simply include some of the novel variants (or singletons) that came out of Big Y?

I'm simply trying to figure out where to go from Big Y, with my 31 novel variants and 17 singletons. I have no clue how they fit into the scheme of things, other than David's super spreadsheet that simply matches them up to everyone else's.

Thanks. I appreciate all help you guys offer.

To the best of my knowledge, FTDNA is still working on what panels of SNPs they will offer in the proposed new Deep Clade 2, as well as the cost of the test. They have asked various project administrators to submit SNPs they would like to see included, but that doesn't mean they automatically will be. I have no idea when the test will actually be available. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I don't know much more than you do. I doubt anyone outside of FTDNA is in the loop on this.

Heber
11-08-2014, 09:36 AM
To the best of my knowledge, FTDNA is still working on what panels of SNPs they will offer in the proposed new Deep Clade 2, as well as the cost of the test. They have asked various project administrators to submit SNPs they would like to see included, but that doesn't mean they automatically will be. I have no idea when the test will actually be available. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I don't know much more than you do. I doubt anyone outside of FTDNA is in the loop on this.

FTDNA should donate the Big Y or Deep Clade tests to Busby in exchange for integrating the reference data into the database. Can anyone who knows Bennett, Max or David Mittleman well make this suggestion. Genographic could do the same with Geno 3.0.
The POBI Dataset is also extreamly valuable and would be of great benefit to autosomal testing. I understand 23andme and AncestryDNA are interested.
Anyone who can pinpoint ancestry to a region of the Isles rather than to the Isles as currently will have a distinct advantage.

Arch
11-18-2014, 07:54 AM
I remember you covered quite a bit about the Iberians. Will there be more? This is one very important culture that is seemingly overlooked by the most renowned authors in archaeology. So ironic, given that the Iberians would most likely to have been the first cultures in Western Europe to encounter Egyptians, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, and Romans. All those massive hillforts the Iberians made and all I ever hear about are the Celtic Iron Age hillforts and all that DNA in eastern Iberia but all I hear about is Celtic DNA in Western Iberia, what about the other folks? Never underestimate your neighbors, they may have done something noteworthy with quite a story waiting to be told.:)

Arch

Mher
11-26-2014, 09:26 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/

Jessie
04-10-2015, 07:44 AM
I'm looking forward to buying a copy and reading it. I enjoyed your first book tremendously and have read it several times. It still takes trips with me when I know I am going to be waiting somewhere and will need something interesting to read.

I have been recommending Ancestral Journeys to new members of the R L21 and Subclades Project for awhile now.

I'm waiting for the book on the Celts to come out and will order Ancestral Journeys as well to save on postage.

Jean M
04-10-2015, 09:16 AM
I'm waiting for the book on the Celts to come out and will order Ancestral Journeys as well to save on postage.

I have started a thread for the book on the Celts: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4287-Blood-of-the-Celts

Mher
06-21-2017, 02:38 PM
Hi alls,I have new nearest person(mister Kaplan-Page) from France.He nearest match on BigY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tmrca 2300-2200.......Have also Conrad from South Germany who nearest match for me and for Kaplan on the Y111!!!!!!!!!!!I think my teory,that my branch come from Central Europe with gallatians is a very strong teory