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Jon
09-24-2014, 11:58 AM
Hi All,

I just wanted to start a mini-thread on observations of L193. Some info has come up which might be of interest.

Like many L193 folks, I trace back to Ayrshire/Dumfriesshire, 18th century. But I see more and more popping up further west, in Argyll, and across into central Scotland, and as far up as the Outer Hebrides and Inverness (with surnames which match those areas).

My closest FTDNA matches are Elliott (#2), Meek (#2), Templeton, Glendinning and most recently, Duncan.

Templeton can be regarded as a 'new' surname, coming from a place-name in Ayrshire. Glendinning the same, near Dumfries (but as I understand there is a link appearing with a Glendinning and the Elliotts through the new testing: so they may be one and the same stock).

Here's where it gets interesting: Elliott, a big border clan, has an origin story/myth that they originally came from the village/river Elliot, in Angus in central-east Scotland. And indeed there is some evidence to support the story, that King Robert brought them into the borders area to help police the region. This was not without precedent: the Gordons moved up north from the borders, for instance.
Meek is not necessarily a borders name at all: it appears in Ayrshire/Galloway, but I suspect as a corruption of the older name McMeekin/McMeeking: check out these names on GB surnames profiler and you'll see what I mean:http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/default.aspx
When in its regular form, Meek is much more common again in east central Scotland: Angus and Fife.
Duncan, my most recent match, is one of the oldest surnames in Scotland, and is almost exclusively originated from central/east Scotland, where it is claimed it goes back to King Duncan of Dunkeld. The Clan Duncan is certainly from that area, and is part of the larger Clan Donnachie (Robertson).

It struck me that my old grandfather once very quietly said that he remembered one of his old relatives talking about a male-line connection to Coupar Angus...we all dismissed it as unlikely, and maybe he was getting his facts mixed up. After all, the paper trail for me ends in Ayrshire. BUT we lose the thread before 1740-something, and the highest concentration of my surname is, surprise: in central Scotland - Perth, Clackmannan, Angus etc. Before the 1740's, there are no families by the name in Ayrshire. They are incomers. And that period was one of major migration for religious and political reasons in Scotland.

The 'explosion' of L193 is clearly south/west. But could the cradle actually be up there in the ancient royal centre, around Perth/Angus? So many of my genealogical strands would tie up with this scenario, but I am just not sure if the DNA trail is solid enough to support this either way...

Jon

Dave-V
09-25-2014, 04:15 PM
Jon, we've talked about the Vance piece of L193 before and I've posted elsewhere so apologies if this is repetitive.

But to add a piece to your puzzle, the L193-A1V Vances seem closest to the A1Ms but the closest surnames are Glendenning, Elliott, McClain and Little. From a paper trail standpoint there are two observations:


1. The A1V subgroup includes a line reliably documented back to 1451 in Galloway (Wigtown area), although the surname already appears in earlier records in the area and is said to have started there in 1384.
2. Other kits in the subgroup have documented ancestries in Ireland back to at least the early 1700s, with at least 3 known men of the Scottish family who had ties or emigrated to that part of Ireland in the early 1600s. The strong implication therefore is that we can rule out NPEs in the Scottish line at least back to the early 1700s but more likely to the early 1600s.

Now the Galloway family (Vans) had at least two known separate Scottish branches, one in Inverness and the other in Aberdeenshire not far from Angus. The Aberdeen Vans line was mentioned in wills of the Galloway family so their connection is known, and there is even a suggestion in the records that one of the emigrants to Ireland was of the Aberdeen line which if true would go a long way towards placing A1V around Aberdeen as well at least back then.

There are strong heraldic, marriage ties with other families and historic reference connections for the origin of these families back to the Vaux/Vaus of Dirleton in East Lothian in eastern Scotland but a gap of one or two generations in the line of descent. But the Vaux/Vaus had Norman origins, so either the origins of L193 are more complicated, or the Vans origin story is way off after that point, or L193 came into the surname line through an NPE etc.

However, to your point on the direction of movement, the Vaux/Vaus/Vans surname came into Scotland in the late 1200s into East Lothian and migrated southwest to Galloway by possibly 1384 or at least 1451. It's possible L193 joined at some point after the 1200s, but we know it was in the surname line by the 1600/1700s. But the other branches of the surname that spread around Scotland complicates the picture a bit.

Dave

Jon
09-25-2014, 08:39 PM
Thanks Dave.

I'm starting to get very wary of surname histories now as I'm discovering that almost every one has several possible backgrounds: my own name of Sharp is in the first place old English (from Scearpa); in Scotland can also be a translation of a Gaelic name in the west (MacIlheran), and has even been claimed as a French-derived name (from L'Escharpe). And the more I look into L193 names, the same thing happens: no real uniformity. There are English, Gaelic and French-derived names...on top of that, I read that only 50% of us statistically have our 'real' names, thanks to adoption, maternal surname inheritance, NPE etc, over the centuries since we inherited the name in the first place! I'm a good case in point: so far I do not match a single other Sharp in the FTDNA project, even those from Ayrshire!

So I'm trying to look more now at the pattern of where L193 comes up. It seems to me very Scottish: I mean the few Irish and English folks also seem to have links through surnames to Scotland. According to the FTDNA map, it seems quite well spread across the whole country though...and recent too.

I still wonder who Mr L193 could have been...!

Dave-V
09-25-2014, 10:36 PM
Agreed, Jon. In old L513 Yahoo Group posts (where we used to call the Mr. L193 "Mr. Big") he looked most likely to be a southwestern Scottish person of some note given the spread of his lineage around Scotland. I'm not sure that stands up fully at this point, but it seems pretty clear that L193 had a unique explosion in Scotland somewhere in medieval times.

Of course the L193 progenitor is estimated to have lived anywhere from 450AD to 900AD depending on error factors and who's running the numbers, so at least 300-750 years before most of the surname histories started that carry L193, not to mention the span of time that people still regularly changed surnames. Given its age there was plenty of time, IMHO, before surnames for L193 to have originated outside Scotland and we're just seeing one or more descendant lines who moved to Scotland and proliferated, or even for one or more branches of L193 to have left Scotland and come back.

I'm hoping the SNP tsunami from recent NGS tests gives us a better tree structure for the L193 surname lines that we can start to make better sense of it.

Dave

Jon
09-26-2014, 08:50 AM
Interesting Dave. I guess I can get too Scotland-focused on L193. I mean given the western bias, there is the chance of Irish incursion - especially in the timeframe 450-900AD. But that would also include Vikings and Anglians! Plus as far as I know there is no real close brother clade in Ireland; the old A2 bunch I guess, but A7 and the other new groups have shown that to not be so close. If L193 was Dalriada, for instance, you would expect to see a lot more of it there today. A pet theory of mine was the Gall-gaidheal, or foreign Gaels, who gave Galloway its name and came into that region around 800AD. They came from the Hebrides and Argyll, and would also have had relatives in central Scotland...but anything is fair game I suppose. Maybe we'll never know for sure. What I really hope is that if there was for instance an NPE in my line, that I can maybe one day find out which surname/s to look for as I continue my searching. That would be really cool!

Dubhthach
09-27-2014, 09:43 AM
Well if you are talking about South-West Scotland wouldn't the Brythonic kingdom of Strathclyde/Cumbria not be a possible source for L193. After all Galloway in sense was carved out of this only in 9th-10th centuries.

What's interesting is that A2 is splilt between A7 (along with L193 has scottish surnames in the L193- section) and large "Airgíalla II" cluster in Ireland. What's interesting about this is there is clear signs in archaelogy of connections between Northern Britain and the northern half of Ireland after 200bc. Clogher hillfort (right in middle of what became Airgíalla territory) for example is often seen as a "island" of brythonic influence in the area (going on finds etc.).

My feeling is that A2 probably arose in Britain with A7 staying in northern Britain (where it begat L193) and the cluster of SNP's that mark Airgíalla II arriving into Ireland. There it languished for bit undergoing a bottleneck until the Maguire's took over lordship of Fermanagh in the 13th century.

-Paul

Jon
09-27-2014, 11:57 AM
Hi Paul,

Yes, Strathclyde has occurred to me. But would that not mean closer links in north England, and especially Wales where the Britons of Strathclyde were said to have retreated to? Also, the high number of guys with ancestry in Argyll, and up into the central highlands made me wonder as well. I mean after so much time the Strathclyde descendants would of course have spread...but L193 still seems stubbornly Scottish, with very little close connection outside. I have recently been wondering about Picts, actually: maybe these are the mysterious 'southern Picts' mentioned in the annals?!

I totally agree that it looks like an insular Celtic connection, though, with the different groups of L513 spread all over.

TigerMW
11-07-2014, 07:17 PM
We do have some new information on this. When looking for origins it is good to look for locations of diversity, or in the case of SNPs, early branching. It's like asking where do the cousins live? L193 is really just the "lead with" or first found SNP of a phylogenetic block that marks this branch of L193. Until now that block was probably

L193/S176/L193.1
S5979
Z17623
A4
A5
A6
S7123
S5990
Z16332
S5982
Z16333
S5992

The challenge is that you don't know which SNPs are oldest or youngest in a block. We just found out about split in the L193 block.

f216154 Jolley

... has S5979 Z17623 but appears ancestral for the rest.

This would make Jolley the nearest "cousin" to L193. He has one person I can find that fits with him in a STR signature:

f93174 Bussey

I'm pretty sure he is also S5979 Z17623.

I can't find any origins information beyond the US for these two. The only things that I know of to look at our the surnames themselves.

What I read in the general searches is that these are Old English names and possibly of the Old French variety, particularly for Bussey.

Mag Uidhir 6
11-08-2014, 05:38 PM
Jon,

The linkage between L193 and L69.5 is indeed and actual point in history. Nailing it down by year....I'd say is a work in progress. And while I question most Pedigrees, they often DO provide clues to branching points. The split of S5668 at A7 & FGC9807, I believe, occurs around 200BC. This a SWAG while looking at Jim and Arlan's pedigree chart at http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~amaguire/Pedigree.htm scroll down to [66]Aonghus Tuireach Tamach (226-B.C.) for a possible branch point.

By no means is this THE DEFINITIVE Maguire line of descent. But, when we look at the new NGS branching of SNPs in relation to FGC9807 Surnames, this chart is gaining in validity (in my opinion).

Prior to 900AD, I have a hard time assigning TRUE names to various clans or progenitors, simply because I don't have the breadth of research in either genealogy, languages or historical references, merely a dabbling in familiarity with a few. And there's the whole Clan Colla origination legend that I find somewhat "awkward" to fully grasp.

Having said all that: The first note in the Annals shows Uidhir at 956AD, which is "close enough" for me to realize that whole surname generation thing. Here is direct copy and paste of "that guy" - --Point to the Maguire Progenitor[19]Maic hUidir<--
The Progenitor of the Maguire Family (approximately 920-A.D.)
The first mention, known to date, of Maguire in ancient documents
comes from the 'Annals of the Four Masters' quote translated by
John O'Donovan, Dublin, 1851.

A.D. 956:
".... Tanaidhe Mac Midhir, Successor of
Comhgall, was killed by the foreigners."

Kathleen Neil of the "Maguire Clan Society" has researched the
origin of Maguire and it points thus far to Westmeath.

Okay....that seems to match up with a logical FGC9807 guy, in my opinion. We have to scroll down a bit more to fully grasp the septs that emerged from the main Mag Uidhir line. Another cut and paste is in order due to the complexity:

| |
(1200 A.D.) First English [27]Don - The Elder (Established the Murchadh
counties appear in Ireland. family around the late 1200's.) (a progenitor of yet
another Murphy family)
A.D. 1302:
"Donn Maguire, King of
Fermanagh, namely the
first king of Fermanagh
of the sons of Maguire,
rested in Christ."

This quote is the first mention of
Maguire in 'The Annals of Ulster.'
It is believed that O'Donnell of
Tir Chonaill was the Maguire's
first overlord and helped establish
them. Later on, after Tomas Mor the
6th Prince, O'Neill of Tyrone would
take tribute also claiming lordship
over Maguire & Fermanagh. The
Maguire's were the middle child
often times making peace between
O'Donnell & O'Neill. The lordship
shifted back & forth between the two
& many times both acted as overlord
at twice the price) For the sons of
Don Mor See #806 of the
Fermanagh Genealogies
|
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
| | | |
[28]Gilla Isa Gothraidh Gaillghile Maghnus
which means 'servant of Jesus' (a progenitor of the (progenitor of the (a progenitor of the
(Besides continuing the Maguire Corry family Lilly family MacManus family)
line Giolla also was the progenitor "GF" #858) "GF" #143 |
of the Gilleece Family) Ruaidhri (Rory)
| |
[29]Domnaill __________________________
| | |
_________________________ Maghnus Maolsheaclainn
| | | |
[1]Duind Carrach Lochlain Matthew Brian
1st Prince 1264-1303 (a progenitor of the | (progenitor of the
(26th in descent from McLoughlin family) Giolla Phadraig Breen family)
de Colla da Chrioch |
according to the Cathal
"Geinealaighe Fearmanach" |
p.71 "The Line of Cathal or Charles MacManus
Philip Mac Guidhir") Maguire - The Middle (1439-1498)
| Author of 'The Annals of Ulster'
| Most likely a contemporary
| of Tomas Og the 7th Prince
|
|
__________________________________________________ __________________________
| | | |
[2]Flaithbertaig MacCraith Gafraidh Amloamh
2nd Prince (progenitor of the (a progenitor of the (a progenitor of the
1303-1324 MacGrath family of McCaffery family MacAuley family
| Sillees "GF" #143) "GF" #876) "GF" #806)
| |
Gailic Laws of Inheritance & the (deirfine) __________________________________________
In old Irish law the taoiseach or leadership of a tuath or kingdom was | |
not only handed down from father to eldest son but all male line Philib Mathghamhain or Mahon
descendants in a family of a common great-grand-father were | (a progenitor of the
considered brothers of inheritance, this would include second cousins. ______________________ MacMahon family)
This basic four generation group was called a deirfine or land ruling | |
family which defined the way in which property would be handled after Brian Aodh
the death of the head of a family. The property was held in common & (progenitor of the
when the son's formed new deirfines, (as above), the land was re-distributed McHugh family)
accordingly for private ownership within the new deirfines. This
periodic re-distribution was named the gabhail cine or the gavelkind.
At times, because so many were eligible for the chieftancy within a
family, there would be squables & murder would occur.
In an attempt to stop the squables an election of sorts was developed to
choose a king elect called a tanaiste (tanist), this was done during the
life of the present princes reign by freemen of the tuath or
kingdom and only for a member of the deirfine or land ruling
family. In time many seemingly unimportant qualifications developed
to weed out competitors for example the law of "being without blemish."
In an attempt to maintain peace & order many noble Irish families
turned to a system of alternating succession between two or more branches.
So although there is a change in the branch (below) the lines of Rory and
Hugh seemed to have maintained peace and order through it.
This will again be seen with the spliting between the Senior Lisnaskea
branch & the Junior Tempo or Enniskillen branch.
|
|---------------------------------------------------+
| |
[3]Rory an Einigh 3rd Prince (the Generous) 1324-1332 [4]Aeda(Hugh) (Ruadh) (I) 4th Prince 1332-1360
+ |
|
|
+-------------<Main Line of Descent)----------------+
|
|
|---------------------------------------------------+
| |
[5]Philip na Tuaighe 5th Prince (Battleaxe) 1360-1375 Gormlaith
|
|------------------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+----------------+---------------------+----------------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+------------+---------+----------+----------+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
[6]Thomas Mor 6th Prince (The Black Gillie) 1375-1430 Hugh(Aodh) Nenagh 1438 Donn (1) Maelseachlain Cuchonnaght(1) Art of Coole Manus (fostered in Tyrone) Donn(2) Brian Cuchonnaght(2) Donn Rua Sean Turlough Tadhg Domhnall Rua
| | |
| | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| | |
| +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rory
| | |
+------------(Main Line of Descent>-----------+ | +-----------+---------------+
| = <6 Unknown Generations) | | |
| | Arthur Alexander Francis d. 1811
+--------------------------------------------------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Richard Maguire |
| | Known to be 7th in descent from Hugh +-----------+------------+
Senior Branch of the town of Lisnaskea Junior Branch of the town of Tempo | | | |
| | +----------------+-----------------+ Capt. Alexander Dr. John Thomas
[7]Tomas Og Maguire 7th Prince 1430-1480 Pilib Mac Thomais Mhoir

This doesn't do justice to Jim and Arlan's website due to formatting so, please, go to the main site to properly view the septs and branch points. My summation of them is:

Uidhir 956AD FGC9807 (Probably where Clarke, Corrigan, Garvey, branch)

Donn Mor Mag Uidhir 1200AD FGC9800 (Main Maguire/Plunkett/McCown lines)
ZS347 (Burns, Byrne)
Z20655 (Bruen, McCormick, possibly Lilly, Corry, McManus, Breen)

Donn Carrach Maguire 1302AD FGC9800 (Main Maguire/Plunkett/McCown lines)
P66 (McCown split - probable DCM son/grandson-we estimate this as mid 1400s)
Z16337 - Main Maguire line with follow on branching by Plunkett, McLoughlin, MacAuley, McGrath, McCaffery,
unk SNP - MacAuley may show MacMahon and McHugh

Still scratching my head for most of this, but this is the template that I use to try to piece this mystery together.

Brad

Dubhthach
11-09-2014, 12:09 AM
Brad,

you might appreciate the following, it's some photo's I've taken from TM Charles-Edwards "Early Christian Ireland" specifically covering the relationship between the Aírgialla and the Uí Néill, what's evident is the connection between the two is a classic example of forged genealogy for political reasons. In general the whole "Three Colla's" appears an artificial construct:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eci_airgialla.html

-Paul

Mag Uidhir 6
11-09-2014, 02:44 AM
Paul,
I have no doubt that power plays have altered "known history" throughout most genealogies. Given what I have read about my kin in the 1641 rebellion (as well as earlier fights), convenient lineage from fostering is the least of the possibilities.

History is written by the victors. And it is usually brutal.

Brad

Jon
11-09-2014, 11:06 AM
Thanks all for the input.

Mike, do I understand it then that the diversity of a group represents its age? And the fact that L193 for instance is very frequent in SW Scotland does not necessarily reflect its origin?

If so, I still find it hard to believe that the origin of L193 can be anywhere other than Scotland. Looking at distribution maps for L513 generally, it seems so isles-centric, and then L193 being so very exclusive to Scotland...in Scotland however, it seems very spread, with people found all up the western isles, and in the north Highlands, with such 'indigenous' names as MacDonald, MacVicar etc. etc. Given the fact that it's also fairly young, I still can't see past this mutation having grown up in one of the Celtic groupings in Scotland (one of the many!). But I totally am open to any alternative explanation, especially ones backed up by 'hard science', as yours are.

So are my assumptions about L193 and Scotland not necessarily on the right track?

Jon

TigerMW
11-10-2014, 10:36 PM
Jon, I think it is pretty clear that higher frequency does not indicate a point of launching. In fact, there have been studies on other organisms of a "wave" concept where frequency can be high for a particular allele, i.e. "L193", at the front of the wave.

Diversity would represent the presence of early branches, which is probably a better indicator of origins. However, that is clearly not infallible either as major population movements can "carry" the diversity with them.

I'd almost look at diversity as telling what is NOT. In other words, areas of low diversity are probably not expansion points.


... Mike, do I understand it then that the diversity of a group represents its age? And the fact that L193 for instance is very frequent in SW Scotland does not necessarily reflect its origin? ..

Jon
11-11-2014, 06:49 PM
Thanks Mike. So there is no info as yet as to areas with greater diversity in L193? My understanding was that despite the frequency in SW Scotland, it was also diverse there (e.g. the Kennedy group: or are they exceptional?).

TigerMW
11-11-2014, 06:58 PM
Thanks Mike. So there is no info as yet as to areas with greater diversity in L193? My understanding was that despite the frequency in SW Scotland, it was also diverse there (e.g. the Kennedy group: or are they exceptional?).

The R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet has the ability to select (autofilter) on geography, haplogroup, etc. The summary at the bottom has a sum of the variance, which is an simplified ingredient in most TMRCA methods. I also have diversity, but diversity is not linear with time where variance, at least in theory, is.

However, anomalies have to be accounted for. The biggest anomaly is the Little's with their strange haplotype. I think they involve a multi-step single mutation and that the relationship, SNP-wise, with the Kennedy's demonstrate this since the Kennedy's don't have it.

Diversity as a generic term also applies. By that I mean the surnames themselves as well as early branching (marked by SNPs) diversity. Along those lines, the early branching shown by Jolley and probably Bussey that breaks up the L193 equivalent SNP block is just another indicator.

Jon
11-12-2014, 09:03 AM
I see, thanks Mike. In your opinion, will we ever reach a stage where family groupings might allow informed estimates as to geographic/demographic origins of subclades like L193 and their relatives? Not the most important thing perhaps, but fasctinating nonetheless!

TigerMW
11-12-2014, 01:02 PM
I see, thanks Mike. In your opinion, will we ever reach a stage where family groupings might allow informed estimates as to geographic/demographic origins of subclades like L193 and their relatives? Not the most important thing perhaps, but fasctinating nonetheless!
Yes, people are already doing such things. However, how high is the confidence in these estimates? I encourage to research the data and assemble and express your conclusions. We could use a population geneticist-historian-archaelogist or two.

I'm trying to assemble the data the best I can. It's there for you to analyze as you please.

Jon
11-12-2014, 06:41 PM
Thanks Mike. I've been reading the postings about the possible Jolley linkage, and I'm starting to slowly be able to see what people are referring to with early branching, diversity etc. Alex's tree is a big (visual) help. It's real interesting how there seems to be diversity and earlier branching even in single surnames, like Kennedy...

Once again, though, I take my hat off to you and the other citizen scientists who are in there getting their hands dirty, so to speak. As a historian/genealogist I sometimes feel like a bit of a helpless spectator! That said, I'm continuing with historical research and surname work, and will share whenever I think it's useful.