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View Full Version : Interpretation of Y-SNP L371 (S300) result. Your opinions required please



greystones22
09-26-2014, 03:42 PM
L371 appears to be a rare subtype of DF13, and to date several men with Welsh surnames cary this marker.

The following news article describes an L371 result and then gives an interpretation of this result.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/showbiz/dafydd-iwan-discovers-impressive-celtic-7829517
(http://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/showbiz/dafydd-iwan-discovers-impressive-celtic-7829517)

Quote:

L371 is ...
Very rare in England and Ireland, it has never been detected anywhere else in the world.

It even seems to be rare in Wales itself and signifies Iwan‘s genetic links with ancient Welsh-speaking kings or war lords who ruled the southern counties of Britiain – from Kent through Hertfordshire, across to Somerset – during the Dark Ages and before the coming of the Anglo-Saxons.

Post-fall of the Roman province, however, men with this marker would have been gradually driven westwards as the tide of the Saxon hordes pushed along the Thames Valley, triumphed at the Battle of Deorham and the old Roman cities of Bath, Cirencester and Gloucester fell.

Iwan was also told, given the consequence of what geneticists call social selection – powerful men’s proclivity in the past for having children with many different women, thereby spreading their DNA much wider – that he and the ancestors who shared his marker might even be descended from a single individual.

I would like to get your opinions as to whether the interpretation is credible. Please vote in the poll and post your comments here.

Thanks!

George Chandler
09-26-2014, 03:53 PM
I don't know enough about L371 to vote but I don't see why it couldn't be credible? Looking at the photo of Dafydd he looks like your typical DF13. I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year as more evidence comes in.

George

rms2
09-26-2014, 03:55 PM
It seems pretty clear that L371 is essentially Welsh, but I don't buy all the grandiose "kings or war lords" stuff. It seems pretty circumscribed for a SNP spread by kings or war lords.

VinceT
09-26-2014, 05:09 PM
The associated L371 project is https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-17-14-10/default.aspx

It is a small, predominantly Welsh cluster, but is also scattered across the UK and it has been detected in Australia. Consequently I would disagree with the assertion that "it has never been detected anywhere else in the world." The assertion that it is specifically attributable to a line of ancient welsh kings or war lords is also quizzical, and smells of the usual P.R. antics of the Rector Moffat.

greystones22
09-27-2014, 09:49 AM
Lots of views but only 2 votes??
Voting is anonymous, so don't hold back!

R.Rocca
09-27-2014, 12:19 PM
The project really needs to have the "Paternal Ancestor Name" field shown and the "Maps" functionality turned on as it is very difficult to speculate on L371 with a limited knowledge of Welsh surnames. The genetic distances do look large enough to make this marker somewhat old, certainly pre-Anglo Saxon times. Perhaps a specific sub-cluster could some day be thought of as "royal", but I don't see anything that points to that in the FTDNA project. Perhaps BritainsDNA has many more samples that point in that direction, but since they no longer offer STR results, I don't think it would help.

So, I am voting "No". If the wording was something along the lines of "pre-Roman Celtic clan leader", I think I likely would have voted "Yes".

Mikewww
09-27-2014, 04:46 PM
After first reading the article, I struggled with the word "credible". The article could be stating truths and I generally give the benefit of the doubt to anyone studying their genealogies as I assume they are the subject matter experts in their own families, where as I am not.

However, after I clicked on the links and read what I could and changed my hand. I just don't see the affirmative evidence presented. On the other hand, the math is at a 4% NPE (when the father thinks he is the biological father) per generation, the odds of lineages having fidelity to a pedigree go do down significantly. The triangulation of several very old and reliable geneleagies with aligned gene testing are needed to reduce the accumulated odds of the NPE. I don't see where they've done it.

To become credible, I will have to see that kind of triangulation.

BTW, since I fancy myself with a Welsh origin according family legacy and some genetic matches in the Glamorgan area, I will add commentary off tangent slightly but for illustration.

I have an early 19th century book written based on an accumulation of materials from an a prior Irish priest was really passionate about Walsh genealogies and history in Ireland. There are several pedigrees going back to Cambro-Norman Invasion period. That's the problem. I have a choice of pedigrees and they pedigrees disagree with each other. I really don't have much reason to think any of them are right so I don't! I only attempt to speculate on which might have some approximation of what happened based on how genetic data and any other I can get support each other.

Which leads me to one of my options which I just don't see with any credibility. That lineage goes back to King Arthur. The only approximation of any type I could come up with my association with the Glamorgan area is the number "twelve" as the conqueror of Glamorgan is Robert Fitzhamon and his twelve knights which could be construed by a drinking man as something to do with or representative of Arthur's twelve knights of the round table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fitzhamon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Knights_of_Glamorgan

I'm L371- so King Arthur, or some facsimile, can't be my ancestor and his.

Well, so much for that.

rms2
09-27-2014, 04:46 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-17-14-10/default.aspx


Puzzling project: lots of strange odds and ends and different subclades.

George Chandler
09-27-2014, 08:43 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-17-14-10/default.aspx


Puzzling project: lots of strange odds and ends and different subclades.

What are the 17,14,10 ?

VinceT
09-27-2014, 09:35 PM
What are the 17,14,10 ?

DYS448=17, DYS456=14, DYS450=10

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/walesdna/conversations/topics/782
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/walesdna/default.aspx?section=results

George Chandler
09-27-2014, 10:15 PM
DYS448=17, DYS456=14, DYS450=10

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/walesdna/conversations/topics/782
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/walesdna/default.aspx?section=results

I understand how unusual the 10 is at DYS450 but the majority of the people in the project are 8? I don't really understand how DYS456 is relevant being that it's a pretty fast mover? Oh well...moving on - thanks Vince.

George

rms2
09-27-2014, 11:37 PM
The photo of Dafydd Iwan in that article linked in the OP looks a lot like my old dad (who is 84), but he is DF41+ (S524+) like me, and not L371+ (S300+).

Emmerson
10-20-2014, 04:43 AM
R1b-L371 / R1b-S300 Group is a wonderful and unique Hg.

The "R1b-L371 Adam" originated about ~5000 YBP in Wales and was likely happy to be free of other R1b-DF13s.

At least 23 "Ancient" Public Level R1b-L371 Y-SNPs were discovered in 2014 by 12 men in The Wales Discovery Group. (This includes the original Gough R1b-L371 SNP discovered in a 2010 WTY by Thomas K now at YSEQ).

About .08% (1 in 1,190) of Y-DNA tested men Worldwide are in the R1b-L371 Hg. R1b-L371 Group Ancestral Homelands in the UK / Wales might have "R-L371 frequency hotspot percentages" which are likely to be 3 to 6 times higher ... .3% UK to .6% Wales. Extensive 2015 and 2016 testing will be done in Wales on 7 surnames. Results will be correlated against other studies such as the soon to be released POBI.

The R1b-L371 Group "does" include descendants of Welsh Kings & Welsh Princes.

The Welsh political firebrand, Dafydd Iwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dafydd_Iwan), is the head of Plaid Cymru (http://www.partyofwales.org/?force=1) and is in the R1b-L371 Hg as tested by the Labs headed up by Dr. Jim Wilson.

A R1b-L371 man, Rhys ap Thomas (and his men), has the best LR (Likelyhood Ratio) for delivering the fatal 1485 blow(s) to King Richard III. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_ap_Thomas

"The contemporary Welsh poet Guto'r Glyn implies a leading Welsh Lancastrian Rhys ap Thomas, or one of his men, killed the king, writing that he "killed the boar, shaved his head". The identification in 2013 of King Richard's body shows that the skeleton had 11 wounds, nine of them to the skull, clearly inflicted in battle and suggesting he had lost his helmet. Professor Guy Rutty, from the University of Leicester, said: "The most likely injuries to have caused the king's death are the two to the inferior aspect of the skull – a large sharp force trauma possibly from a sword or staff weapon, such as a halberd or bill (the kind Thomas used), and a penetrating injury from the tip of an edged weapon." http://www.castlewales.com/rhysap.html

It's nice to see some Welsh Y-DNA Hg news to Niall this down on this Isle. Be sure to have a good Welsh Penderyn Whiskey (http://www.welsh-whisky.co.uk/Our-Whiskies/Single-Cask-Whiskies.aspx) on March 1, 2015, St Davids Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_David's_Day).

rms2
10-20-2014, 12:16 PM
. . .

The "R1b-L371 Adam" originated about ~5000 YBP in Wales and was likely happy to be free of other R1b-DF13s.

. . .

Obviously he wasn't happy for long, if ever. There are plenty of other R1b-DF13s in Wales. Even there, L371 is not in the majority.

I won't say anymore; I'm trying to be nice.

Emmerson
10-20-2014, 01:26 PM
Obviously he wasn't happy for long, if ever. There are plenty of other R1b-DF13s in Wales. Even there, L371 is not in the majority.

I won't say anymore; I'm trying to be nice.

I am trying to be lovingly nice also. Perhaps the newly minted R1b-L371 men had a more favorable and "attracting" body odor (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/09/09/3841972.htm) back then and were highly selective who they brought into their caves for some brew and lovemaking. R1b-L371 men lived up in the mountains ... and were renowned swordsmen in and out of the bedroom ... and likely some of the first Don Juan's in the Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan). They are about quality and not quantity.

rms2
10-20-2014, 03:38 PM
I am trying to be lovingly nice also . . .

Hard to tell. Those last two posts are kind of obnoxious.

Most people here don't begin by saying how happy their y-dna progenitor was to avoid other members of his haplogroup nor ascribe to their subclade inflated claims of superiority and regal descent.

I'll leave you to carry on.

greystones22
11-05-2014, 10:23 AM
Well to follow this up...

I'm glad that those who voted could see the problems with this article.

I think that there is good news though. Statistically I would say the odds are huge that any living Welsh person who is not a recent immigrant, will be descended from 1 or more royal welsh lines (but much much less likely that this will be patrilineal decent). This is based on probability more than Y Chromosome research. To be honest the "ancient" genealogies in Wales are fraught with errors, and more recently huge problems arose when English speakers took over the main recording of BMD in the 18-20th Century.

I would also add that my comments regarding probability come completely free of charge. :angel:
For further reading
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking