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Jean M
09-30-2014, 04:54 PM
Here's how that section looks at the moment. Comments and corrections welcome:


Genetics: The Cruthin
A Y-DNA haplogroup which seems to have arisen in the Celts of Britain has been found in some men who can trace descent from the Uí Echach Cobha. When this link was first noticed, the phylogenetic tree of Y-DNA was a slender thing by comparison with its bushy growth today, so the names of the haplogroup in question have changed. Brian McEvoy and Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin identified it as simply a subclade of I1c. I1c was the name in about 2005 of the present I2a2a (M223). The subclade in question is currently known as I2a2a1a (M284).

Y-DNA haplogroup I2a2a1a (M284) is almost exclusively British in origin. It is rare in Ireland, but there is a concentration of it in northeastern Ireland. More significantly the Irish bearers of it generally fall into a newly discovered subclade, identified by the marker S7753. They include men of several surnames of Irish origin, such as McGuiness, Callahan, McConville and McManus, indicating that S7753 arrived from Britain before the development of surnames. S7753 is not exclusively Irish. A number of men of Scottish origin also carry it, including those with Gaelic surnames, which could reflect the movement which carried Gaelic from Ireland to Scotland.

rossa
09-30-2014, 09:40 PM
Is S7753 not closer to L126 (Isles Scots)?

Jean M
10-01-2014, 08:29 AM
Is S7753 not closer to L126 (Isles Scots)?

S7753 is a branch off L126. Perhaps I should work that in, together with the uncertainty about which way the movement went.

J1 DYS388=13
10-01-2014, 11:50 AM
For evidence of a possible Iberian Ice Age origin of M284, see Moffatt&Wilson The Scots, a Genetic Journey, pp.24-5.

Jean M
10-01-2014, 01:27 PM
For evidence of a possible Iberian Ice Age origin of M284, see Moffatt&Wilson The Scots, a Genetic Journey, pp.24-5.

Oh golly! They are so off track, aren't they?

J1 DYS388=13
10-01-2014, 02:38 PM
They cite evidence which I'm not qualified to evaluate.

rossa
10-01-2014, 04:33 PM
They cite evidence which I'm not qualified to evaluate.

From what I remember they used some Portuguese samples as evidence, I think the sample may even have had close str matches to some British ones.

Jean M
10-01-2014, 06:01 PM
They cite evidence which I'm not qualified to evaluate.

I have a copy of the work in question. It was a perfectly reasonable assumption that Y-DNA I was a pre-Neolithic haplogroup in Europe. I went to print with this idea myself, prior to the discovery of Y-DNA I from the Mesolithic. No problem there. The problem lies in assuming that any Y-DNA I has to have arrived where it now is in the Mesolithic. They found higher levels of M284 in Portugal than anywhere else outside the British Isles, which should come as no surprise to anyone who knows that Portugal and England have been allies since the Middle Ages.

Thanks for pointing it out though. It is interesting.


From what I remember they used some Portuguese samples as evidence, I think the sample may even have had close str matches to some British ones.

STRs are not mentioned.

Jean M
10-01-2014, 06:40 PM
Latest version. Thanks to all commentators.


Genetics: The Cruthin

A Y-DNA haplogroup which seems to have arisen in Britain has been found in some men who can trace descent from the Uí Echach Cobha. When this link was first noticed, the phylogenetic tree of Y-DNA was a slender thing by comparison with its bushy growth today, so the name of the haplogroup in question has changed. Brian McEvoy and Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin identified it as simply a subclade of I1c. I1c was the name in about 2005 of the present I2a2a (M223). The subclade they had in mind is currently known as I2a2a1a (M284). It has now itself been divided into subclades by newly discovered markers.

[Tree has gone in here]

Haplogroup I2a2a1a (M284) is very rare outside the British Isles and those of British and Irish origin. Trace amounts are found in France and Germany, and a slightly higher percentage in Portugal, England's oldest ally. To judge by the estimated date that it burgeoned into sub-lineages, it was one of the I2 family that travelled with early farmers. So it could pre-date the Celts in Britain. The bearers of I2a2a1a (M284) have a mixed bag of surnames including English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish. Its descendant clade I2a2a1a1a1 (L126/S165) is more common in Scotland, and its offshoot I2a2a1a1a1a (S7753) includes men of several surnames of Irish Gaelic origin, such as McGuiness, Callahan, McConville and McManus, indicating that S7753 arrived in Ireland before the development of surnames. The surname McGuiness is one with a Cruthin origin (see p. xxx).

Refs are:
McEvoy and Bradley 2010, 117.
Family Tree DNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project; Moffat and Wilson 2011, 24-25.

sparkey
10-01-2014, 07:19 PM
It may be worth noting that Nordtvedt estimates the TMRCA of S7753 as less than 1,000 years, and estimates its split with its closest L126 cousins as less than 2,000 years ago. See "Tree for M223 x Z161.pptx".

There aren't many I2-M284 subclades that don't span multiple British Isles ethnicities. Taking the outlier L1195- cluster as an example (nicknamed "Pioneer"), despite only having a handful of surnames associated with it (Luce, Lewis, Dunphy, Whitlo, Gordon, Watkins, maybe Clinton), we already see English, Welsh, and Irish surnames together.

Jean M
10-01-2014, 07:23 PM
It may be worth noting that Nordtvedt estimates the TMRCA of S7753 as less than 1,000 years, and estimates its split with its closest L126 cousins as less than 2,000 years ago. See "Tree for M223 x Z161.pptx".


Yes I've been perusing his tree. I need to add a ref to him. I suppose I could add dates to the tree.

rossa
10-01-2014, 07:36 PM
He also labelled a small cluster of people from L126 as Isles-Irish, I think there were three or four surnames altogether (O'Neill was the only one that seemed native Irish to me). The details should be on his spreadsheet at his website.

mcardle
12-11-2014, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=Jean M;54013]Latest version. Thanks to all commentators.
My BigY results make me I-Y4751 (I2a2a1a1a1).
In documentary terms, my surname line has been around the east of Scotland since the 1260s, and tracks back through the (original) Earls of Strathearn.
That's possibly as good a definition of "Pict" or Cruthin as you'll get, and suggests a separate origin from Gaels.