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Asparuk
10-03-2014, 04:37 PM
From 2 seperate sites along the Don river in Russia, Verhnesaltovsky IV burial of 10 samples (only in 7 out of 10 were found fragments of DNA) detected in four Y-dna G2 and six mtdna I
Dmitrov burial two samples, both had Y-dna G2, with no result for mtdna. Sub-clades of G2 were not tested.


3) To analyze Alanian paleo-DNA haplogroup level (laboratory work performed Iljinsky VV) were selected, 12 samples of human teeth and bone fragments from the catacomb burial. Investigation of the male line was carried out by analyzing 23 microsatellite loci (STR) Y-chromosome of man. Definition haplogroup female line was carried out the study of mtDNA hypervariable regions. The task was to identify the nucleotide sequences of the hypervariable regions HVS-1, HVS-2, HVS -3 mtDNA haplogroup, with subsequent determination of individuals and the predictions of migration routes. As a result, in the 6 samples was found haplogroup G2 and 6 samples - female haplogroup I.
Scientists note that the North Caucasus, which are connected with the territory of their origin Don Alans, G2 occur as the two branches of the Ossetians (G2a1) and the Circassians (G2a3). G2a little occurs in Karachai and Balkars, as well as the Ingush and Chechens. The researchers write, and I quote: "The issue is Alan DNA is closely associated with the study of the role of Alan and Caucasian substrate in the formation of the Ossetian people, now takes on a more distinct shape. We got a first and very promising data about Alan DNA Khazar time." It is further noted that the need for a thorough research in the field paleoDNK level subclades not only Alanian material Khazar and predhazarskogo time, but the study of paleo-DNA carriers barrows and burial rites yamnogo on the territory of the Khazar Khanate as well as simultaneous and preceding them centrally-Caucasian substratum, practiced burial in stone boxes, underground and above-ground tombs. Then it can be ascertained whether the men G2 the Don Alan Sarmatian heritage, kangyuytsev or a contribution to the Central Caucasian substratum

https://www.academia.edu/7061155/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_% D0%9C.%D0%92._%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE %D0%B2_%D0%94.%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1% 82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9E_%D0%BA% D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B9_%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0% BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE %D0%B9_%D0%B8_%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8 %D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BF% D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%B4%D 0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0 %B0%D0%BD_%D0%95.%D0%98._%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF% D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2% D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D 0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0 %B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%9A%D0% B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0._%D0%9C._2014._%D 0%A1._312-315

Humanist
10-03-2014, 06:37 PM
Thank you. Very interesting! Is there any indication when these samples date from?

RCO
10-03-2014, 07:03 PM
I think they were Medieval samples from the 8th century.

Asparuk
10-04-2014, 10:36 AM
Thank you. Very interesting! Is there any indication when these samples date from?


I think they were Medieval samples from the 8th century.

Honestly I have no idea, my Cyrillic reading and comprehension skills are a bit rusty. But yeah, RCO I think you are right.

A few questions I have are, how can these be "Alans" if they are dated to around 800 A.D.? I thought the Hunnic and succeeding Turkic tribes scattered the Alans, and they failed to exist as a entity on the steppes in the late Roman period, that's what all the books I read mentioned at least. Maybe, just maybe these G2a were Caucasian Alans who repopulated the steppes, I think that should give the disappointed ar1an crowd some hope. These Alans look to have been serving Khazar masters as the paper mentions. 800 A.D. is also during the zenith of the Khazar Khaganate.

Salkin
10-04-2014, 02:43 PM
*peers at Y-DNA and mtDNA fields on the left* Hmm. Alan background? :)

Asparuk
10-04-2014, 11:34 PM
*peers at Y-DNA and mtDNA fields on the left* Hmm. Alan background? :)

Maybe. :unsure:

I don't want to reveal my haplogroup otherwise I'd be like these r1a clowns who lack objectivity, but yeah I have Ossetic G2a1* (actually at the moment awaiting deeper sub-clade analysis). But still, I'd like to know the reality and not some overly-dramatized self-promotion, so leaving my Y-dna out of this for now. :noidea:

Salkin
10-04-2014, 11:43 PM
Maybe. :unsure:

I don't want to reveal my haplogroup otherwise I'd be like these r1a clowns who lack objectivity, but yeah I have Ossetic G2a1* (actually at the moment awaiting deeper sub-clade analysis). But still, I'd like to know the reality and not some overly-dramatized self-promotion, so leaving my Y-dna out of this for now. :noidea:

I was referring to my own haplogroups (Y and mt both, since they both match these Alans), not yours. :) Sounds like you might have some of that background too, though.

Asparuk
10-04-2014, 11:51 PM
I was referring to my own haplogroups (Y and mt both, since they both match these Alans), not yours. :) Sounds like you might have some of that background too, though.

Ohhh pffft, well 4 hours of sleep today is terrible for me. Mental acuity is low. I just skimmed through your haplogroups and thought you had yDNA: I2 and mtDNA: G, but I had it backwards. My sleep deprived brain didn't expect a Swede to be a hG. Sorry to disapoint you though but I think your G is from Gökhem Neolithic farmers. :)

Edit:

Wait, according to this ridiculous map there still is hope:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2ezl16q.gif

:P

Anyway, here's a video to remind everyone why being an Alan is so cool. B)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2zjEIwOl0

Oh and what's this, we're handsome too ;)


Nearly all the Alani are men of great stature and beauty, their hair is somewhat yellow, their eyes are frighteningly fierce.
-Ammianus Marcellinus


http://i59.tinypic.com/2i2bxn6.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2nbsjmt.jpg

Salkin
10-05-2014, 12:34 AM
Heheh. You're probably right that my G is of Gökhem origin. I hadn't realised the Huns got up here, though it seems to depend on whom you ask. I'm working on my haplogroups, too, especially Y since as you say that's rather unexpected for around here. Currently on tenterhooks waiting to find out if FTDNA actually got my sample or if the USPS misplaced it... also have Chromo2 and maybe Geno 2.0 kits incoming.

I didn't really have any investment in the Alans, the haplogroup combo just caught my eye. But as you say, it's possible. My fanciful romanticism is mostly Viking-based, unsurprisingly - and if you want to get fanciful and play as fast and loose as that map might, maybe also Goth. :)

I have to admit the Alans do seem pretty cool. And though I don't understand the language, that narrator seems a solid choice. Precisely the sort of tone and delivery you'd want for best effect, and it sounds beautiful.

ADW_1981
10-05-2014, 01:01 AM
Honestly I have no idea, my Cyrillic reading and comprehension skills are a bit rusty. But yeah, RCO I think you are right.

A few questions I have are, how can these be "Alans" if they are dated to around 800 A.D.? I thought the Hunnic and succeeding Turkic tribes scattered the Alans, and they failed to exist as a entity on the steppes in the late Roman period, that's what all the books I read mentioned at least. Maybe, just maybe these G2a were Caucasian Alans who repopulated the steppes, I think that should give the disappointed ar1an crowd some hope. These Alans look to have been serving Khazar masters as the paper mentions. 800 A.D. is also during the zenith of the Khazar Khaganate.

You are bang on the money. These are not Alans, nor do they have anything to do with the steppe. They are in all likelihood descended from Trans-Caucasian farmers.

David Mc
10-05-2014, 01:02 AM
Ahem... I don't want to state the obvious, but almost all of the footage in the "Alan" video was taken from the Lord of the Rings movies... I think there may also have been 4-5 seconds from a Kazakh movie spliced into it, as well, but most was LoTR...

Asparuk
10-05-2014, 01:26 AM
You are bang on the money. These are not Alans, nor do they have anything to do with the steppe. They are in all likelihood descended from Trans-Caucasian farmers.

Well I'm sure the authors of the paper had good reasoning to assume they were Alans. Maybe weaponry and other grave goods.... if "catacomb burial" is not enough? Either way I still think it's a bit naive to think just because they didn't have r1a means they "had nothing to do with the steppes" - they were buried there for christ sake! This study and similar ones are close to worthless without full autosomal DNA. Anyway, you can find G2a in Uzbekistan very close to Caucasian G2a. Remember that a couple Roman writers said "Alans" was just a western name for the Massagetae, who once inhabited the Jaxartes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syr_Darya).

221740 Khalilov Abdulkhalil Uzoqbek 19c. Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-16 10 12 12 12 10 29 17 9-9 10 11 25 16 21 30 13-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 15 15 16 17 36-37 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 9 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 22 16 13 11 14 10 11 11 13
320827 Ravshanov Qirq Adilbay 1850 from Trukish tribe named Qirq Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-17 11 12 11 12 10 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 30 12-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 16 15 15 20 36-38 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 22 16 14 11 13 10 11 11 13
184836 Ruslan Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 16-17 11 12 12 12 10 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-13-14-15 10 10 20-21 15 15 15 19 38-44 11 11 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 16 8 13 21 22 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 13

But...... there's no reason to get starry eyed over Y-DNA, I just thought it might solve the Ossetian mystery.... BTW since I found out Sardinians are loaded with Hunter-Gatherer I2a yet autosomally are as anti-HG as they come, Y-DNA looks, close to worthless for me, but still interesting to toy around with.



Ahem... I don't want to state the obvious, but almost all of the footage in the "Alan" video was taken from the Lord of the Rings movies... I think there may also have been 4-5 seconds from a Kazakh movie spliced into it, as well, but most was LoTR...

Who cares. I don't expect westerners to make movies about Alans anyway, except for some Legend of King Arthur related films.

David Mc
10-05-2014, 02:01 AM
Fair enough. :)

ADW_1981
10-05-2014, 02:18 PM
Well I'm sure the authors of the paper had good reasoning to assume they were Alans. Maybe weaponry and other grave goods.... if "catacomb burial" is not enough? Either way I still think it's a bit naive to think just because they didn't have r1a means they "had nothing to do with the steppes" - they were buried there for christ sake! This study and similar ones are close to worthless without full autosomal DNA. Anyway, you can find G2a in Uzbekistan very close to Caucasian G2a. Remember that a couple Roman writers said "Alans" was just a western name for the Massagetae, who once inhabited the Jaxartes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syr_Darya).

221740 Khalilov Abdulkhalil Uzoqbek 19c. Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-16 10 12 12 12 10 29 17 9-9 10 11 25 16 21 30 13-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 15 15 16 17 36-37 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 9 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 22 16 13 11 14 10 11 11 13
320827 Ravshanov Qirq Adilbay 1850 from Trukish tribe named Qirq Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-17 11 12 11 12 10 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 30 12-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 16 15 15 20 36-38 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 22 16 14 11 13 10 11 11 13
184836 Ruslan Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 16-17 11 12 12 12 10 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-13-14-15 10 10 20-21 15 15 15 19 38-44 11 11 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 16 8 13 21 22 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 13

But...... there's no reason to get starry eyed over Y-DNA, I just thought it might solve the Ossetian mystery.... BTW since I found out Sardinians are loaded with Hunter-Gatherer I2a yet autosomally are as anti-HG as they come, Y-DNA looks, close to worthless for me, but still interesting to toy around with.




Who cares. I don't expect westerners to make movies about Alans anyway, except for some Legend of King Arthur related films.

All the evidence within the last 2 years points to J1, J2a, and G2a being ubiquitous to the Caucasus mountains, at least since the time of the spread of farming, not the steppes.

It's not about westerners believing or not, it's about what evidence has been produced, and what makes the most sense.

RCO
10-05-2014, 03:05 PM
The Ancient Alans were Iranian speaking groups found around the Caspian Sea and adjacencies, so it's possible that some rare Western European groups with specific SNPs found around the Caspian Sea can be related to their movement to Western Europe around 2000 years ago. Possibly the case of J1 FGC5990-FGC6175 http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/

Asparuk
10-06-2014, 05:59 AM
All the evidence within the last 2 years points to J1, J2a, and G2a being ubiquitous to the Caucasus mountains, at least since the time of the spread of farming, not the steppes.

It's not about westerners believing or not, it's about what evidence has been produced, and what makes the most sense.

It's not at all confined to the Caucasus. Are you aware of Caucasian type R1b that dominates the Bashkirs? Or J2 among Chuvash? Why are some Sintashta r1a (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0) outliers (likely IE-ized locals) still being used as a reference for what it is to be a steppe nomad? Do you think these "Alans" were actually Caucasians who made it to the Don region, much like this Abkhaz commander of Novorussia forces?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9k05CbXmqE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAcrZGoPrg

Nope, I'm sure G2a has some ancient links with the Yamna culture and the Dark pigmentation of Eneolithic and Bronze Age kurgan groups from eastern Europe (http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.abstract).

http://i59.tinypic.com/speu08.png

The Iranic nomads = nothing but r1a myth and assumption circulating the internet needs to be put to rest. But that said, even r1a is ours. Naturally this will make some people furious, but I'm not here to troll just present facts:

http://i59.tinypic.com/10wjs75.jpg

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

Asparuk
10-06-2014, 06:27 AM
Anyway here is the distribution of G2a1:

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=210804045618148582630.000484f15bbff4fa0a26 9&msa=0&ll=38.341656,37.880859&spn=65.562838,94.130859&dg=feature

It is found as far east as mainland China, where Alans were stationed by the Mongols:


After the Mongol invasion of Rus, many Alans submitted to the Mongol Empire. Some of them resisted the Golden Horde longer. Many warriors moved from Northern Caucasia to Mongolia. It is also claimed that they helped their new masters to fight against the Circassians and that they participated in the Mongol invasion of Europe. Under the rule of Möngke Khan, many were brought east to fight against the Chinese Song Dynasty and Nanchao in Yunnan in 1258-1259. The Alan imperial guard was divided into two corps with headquarters in Karakorum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asud

All in all, this is a very strong case that the Alans of the migration period were G2a* and like modern Ossetians.

lgmayka
10-06-2014, 10:10 AM
Naturally this will make some people furious, but I'm not here to troll just present facts:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html
Just to clarify: That map is not a "fact" but the highly imaginative sketch of a blogger based on his personal (and perhaps biased) interpretation of a single research paper. That paper presents very significant results but has its own well-recognized inadequacies. Here are another blogger's comments on the paper (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-story-of-r1a-academics-flounder-as.html).

Asparuk
10-06-2014, 10:21 PM
Just to clarify: That map is not a "fact" but the highly imaginative sketch of a blogger based on his personal (and perhaps biased) interpretation of a single research paper. That paper presents very significant results but has its own well-recognized inadequacies. Here are another blogger's comments on the paper (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-story-of-r1a-academics-flounder-as.html).

That same genome blogger you linked sketched this map 2 years before the Underhill paper:

http://i60.tinypic.com/vdfiag.png

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/31726-R-M17-to-be-or-not-to-be-proto-Indo-European?p=826171&viewfull=1#post826171

ADW_1981
10-06-2014, 11:22 PM
It's not at all confined to the Caucasus. Are you aware of Caucasian type R1b that dominates the Bashkirs? Or J2 among Chuvash?

I challenge this statement. There IS NO Caucasus R1b. The R1b type which dominates the Bashkir is a native Russian type, as well as U152+ which seems to be a founder effect and unlikely local to the region. I wouldn't say dominate either and there is significant representation of non-R1b haplogroups among Bashkir. I don't have frequency of J2 / Chuvash handy but I would also be hesitant to draw ancient relationship without first seeing where the sample came from. The closer you are to the Caucasus mountains the more likely to have high amounts of J2a/G2-P15/J1

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

It's highly improbable that these folks ever inhabited the regions north of the Caucasus in ancient times, despite low frequency there today. This is exactly why there is a Eurasian to Middle East division

Kopfjäger
10-07-2014, 02:55 AM
Who cares. I don't expect westerners to make movies about Alans anyway, except for some Legend of King Arthur related films.

Thanks for posting this interesting find, Asparuk! I can't tell you if the remains are indicative of the famed "Alans" of yore; however, to cultivate your romanticism, I had a friend named Alan who worked the hell out of the power tower at the gym.

BTW, I'm sick of anything King Arthur-related with the exception of Tennyson. :B)

kosmonomad
10-09-2014, 06:12 PM
Maybe. :unsure:

I don't want to reveal my haplogroup otherwise I'd be like these r1a clowns who lack objectivity, but yeah I have Ossetic G2a1* (actually at the moment awaiting deeper sub-clade analysis). But still, I'd like to know the reality and not some overly-dramatized self-promotion, so leaving my Y-dna out of this for now. :noidea:

I especially want to thank for this comment. Heh-heh.

Klyosov has done an analysis of these new aDNA haplotypes and karachay-balkar and ossetian hg G ones. (In Russian). Google-translate is decent enough.
Part 1: http://pereformat.ru/2014/09/don-alans/
You are mostly interested in this second part
Part 2 http://pereformat.ru/2014/10/alans-baktria/

Briefly:
The aDNA results are similar to the neolithic european hg G2. These were alans from europe. Both ossetian and karachay-balkar crowd have common origin in the Bactria homeland 4+ kya. The european and bactrian predecessors had been separated by more than 10 ky.

Asparuk
10-10-2014, 04:18 AM
I especially want to thank for this comment. Heh-heh.

Klyosov has done an analysis of these new aDNA haplotypes and karachay-balkar and ossetian hg G ones. (In Russian). Google-translate is decent enough.
Part 1: http://pereformat.ru/2014/09/don-alans/
You are mostly interested in this second part
Part 2 http://pereformat.ru/2014/10/alans-baktria/

Briefly:
The aDNA results are similar to the neolithic european hg G2. These were alans from europe. Both ossetian and karachay-balkar crowd have common origin in the Bactria homeland 4+ kya. The european and bactrian predecessors had been separated by more than 10 ky.

OK some conclusions based on Klyosov's analysis:

1. These Don Alans (presumably from 700 A.D.) are not the ancestors of Ossetians or Karachay-Balkars, but more like offshoots - Iranified-Caucasian people serving Khazar masters. Maybe the Alans of earlier Roman times mingled less with Caucasus natives.

2. Ossetian and Karachay-Balkar G2a* can be traced back 4,500 years ago to Sogdiana region (modern Tajikistan) however likely not related to Indo-Iranians but rather introduced by Neolithic farmers, relatives of Uruk (http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf) migrants from Mesopotamia.

3. Ossetian G2a* is from very small founder group, as Ossetians have been enduring population bottlenecks for the last few millenniums, most recent ones:

http://i.imgur.com/ttibnU6.png

http://books.google.com/books?id=E6Z5AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dqjkIVMiRI-3b8gHHtYG4Bw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

My own conjecture thrown in:

4. Alans are, only one of the many ancestors of Ossetians. Indo-European inhabitation of Ossetia goes back to at least Cimmerian (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Urartu_715_713-en.svg) times. Georgian chronicles first reported the "Gimirri" - as they called them, streaming in from north of Gori region in Georgia, probably through Mamison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamison_Pass) and Dariel pass.

5. Actual Iranic contribution in Ossetians is mainly through maternal line (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png) and while real Iranic r1a-z93 is lacking, autosomally there is still something Iranic (or much ancient, directly P-I-E) in Ossetians:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2s67gb4.jpg

rock hunter
03-05-2015, 04:49 AM
Can Google translate Cyrillic ?

Táltos
03-05-2015, 05:15 AM
Can Google translate Cyrillic ?

Sure, just not real good at times. It translates the word kit to whale when I read Forum Molgen. I don't even dare to try and sign up to communicate on there! Another time I put google translate on a paper that was in Russian and saw the name of a tree which happens to be my daughter's name. And though I know that wasn't in the official English version of the paper, I thought maybe the Russians had been using this word in another context. It turned out it was just a translation error.

Some words come up real nonsensical in translation. Like this one-sovpadentsev. I can only guess that it means match, like a match that you get in the Family Finder test. So try it, but be prepared to probably have to read it a few times to get the gist of it. :)

rock hunter
03-05-2015, 05:31 AM
lol well so much for the mighty Google Mainframe
Guess it cannot do everything,,,,,, yet

Táltos
03-05-2015, 05:47 AM
lol well so much for the mighty Google Mainframe
Guess it cannot do everything,,,,,, yet

Really though not as bad as you might think. Just slightly annoying. It is better than nothing. I was very happy when I realized that Google had a translate. I was more annoyed when my brother's Y DNA results first came in and the only thing I could find on the internet about his haplogroup was on Molgen. All in Russian, but with lots of good information. :) I have tried to at least learn the Cyrillic alphabet so I might start to recognize words. It certainly is not easy to pick up on!

Arame
04-10-2015, 02:00 PM
I read Russian
This paper says that they were farmers not nomads.
They were buried in catacombs. In contrast people buried in pit graves had a more Eastern anthropology.
Despite the fact that their living time coincides with Khazars they don't have any Eastern influence. They were Europoids.
So it is normal that they are G2a.
They add that this is another proof that not every archaeologic site related to Saltovo-Mayaki culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki) should be related to Khazars.

J Man
04-10-2015, 02:27 PM
I read Russian
This paper says that they were farmers not nomads.
They were buried in catacombs. In contrast people buried in pit graves had a more Eastern anthropology.
Despite the fact that their living time coincides with Khazars they don't have any Eastern influence. They were Europoids.
So it is normal that they are G2a.
They add that this is another proof that not every archaeologic site related to Saltovo-Mayaki culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki) should be related to Khazars.

It is very likely that the G2 among the Alans came from native Caucasian people who adopted or were assimilated into Alan culture.

ADW_1981
04-10-2015, 02:42 PM
5. Actual Iranic contribution in Ossetians is mainly through maternal line (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png) and while real Iranic r1a-z93 is lacking, autosomally there is still something Iranic (or much ancient, directly P-I-E) in Ossetians:



I don't consider Iranic to be exclusively R1a-Z93, even if they are a majority of Indic and Iranic people today. Some of them, probably Cimmerians, Alans to name a few might have belonged predominantly to R1b-Z2103. You will see a very strong correlation of R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 with the "teal" component as per the latest Haak study.

I'm still hedging my bet that G2 spread from south of the Caucasus mountains. I'm just not seeing J2 or G2 in the steppes during the bronze age or earlier time frame. That location seems to be dominated by descendants of YDNA K and may have remained so until a recent time frame when trade along the silk road was possible and we see input from the south. Hopefully more aDNA will make things more clear.

newtoboard
04-10-2015, 10:46 PM
I don't consider Iranic to be exclusively R1a-Z93, even if they are a majority of Indic and Iranic people today. Some of them, probably Cimmerians, Alans to name a few might have belonged predominantly to R1b-Z2103. You will see a very strong correlation of R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 with the "teal" component as per the latest Haak study.

I'm still hedging my bet that G2 spread from south of the Caucasus mountains. I'm just not seeing J2 or G2 in the steppes during the bronze age or earlier time frame. That location seems to be dominated by descendants of YDNA K and may have remained so until a recent time frame when trade along the silk road was possible and we see input from the south. Hopefully more aDNA will make things more clear.

Well the Alans were from NW Kazakhstan so I doubt they will be predominantly Z2103+. Cimmerians probably did carry Z2103+ but it isn't even known if they spoken an Iranic language.

vettor
04-10-2015, 10:57 PM
OK some conclusions based on Klyosov's analysis:

1. These Don Alans (presumably from 700 A.D.) are not the ancestors of Ossetians or Karachay-Balkars, but more like offshoots - Iranified-Caucasian people serving Khazar masters. Maybe the Alans of earlier Roman times mingled less with Caucasus natives.

2. Ossetian and Karachay-Balkar G2a* can be traced back 4,500 years ago to Sogdiana region (modern Tajikistan) however likely not related to Indo-Iranians but rather introduced by Neolithic farmers, relatives of Uruk (http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf) migrants from Mesopotamia.

3. Ossetian G2a* is from very small founder group, as Ossetians have been enduring population bottlenecks for the last few millenniums, most recent ones:

http://i.imgur.com/ttibnU6.png

http://books.google.com/books?id=E6Z5AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dqjkIVMiRI-3b8gHHtYG4Bw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

My own conjecture thrown in:

4. Alans are, only one of the many ancestors of Ossetians. Indo-European inhabitation of Ossetia goes back to at least Cimmerian (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Urartu_715_713-en.svg) times. Georgian chronicles first reported the "Gimirri" - as they called them, streaming in from north of Gori region in Georgia, probably through Mamison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamison_Pass) and Dariel pass.

5. Actual Iranic contribution in Ossetians is mainly through maternal line (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png) and while real Iranic r1a-z93 is lacking, autosomally there is still something Iranic (or much ancient, directly P-I-E) in Ossetians:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2s67gb4.jpg


The bottom chart is where most likely DnaTribes associated me with being a Balkar ..........maybe due to that mix