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rms2
10-05-2014, 07:04 PM
I thought I would start this thread about my own subclade and cluster under DF41. It may mean me talking to myself more than anything else, but perhaps someone else might chime in from time to time.

Short Tandem Repeat (STR) haplotype cluster 41-1123 is characterized by the following marker values: 390=23; 385=11-11; 447<=24; 464b=16; 534<=14; 413a<=22. The following values are also usually found in the cluster but not always: 458=16 and 439<=11. I wish I could say I was the first one to spot my own cluster, but I wasn't. Rick Arnold noticed it way back several years ago when we were all over on the old, now-defunct dna forums.

As a result of the comparison of the Big Y results of two of our members, 19 new SNPs have been discovered downstream of DF41/CTS2501. Since these two members are 10 apart at 67 markers and 17 apart at 111 markers, it is likely that all of us in cluster 41-1123 share these SNPs. One of these new SNPs, 08487637T>G, has been christened BY166 by Family Tree DNA. It has been chosen to characterize a new subclade downstream of DF41 and is parallel to the other currently known DF41+ SNPs.

I have BY166 on order from FTDNA, but it's a recent order: no results yet.

So far most of us in the cluster are brickwalled in North America. Only three of us are able to trace our y-dna lines to Europe. One of those, Samuel, kit N104746, has an mdka who was born in Llanafan-fawr, Wales, in the 17th century. The second, Self, kit 53479, traces his mdka to Melksham, Wiltshire, in SW England, also in the 17th century. Samuel and Self are the two members of our cluster with the Big Y results and so are BY166+. Samuel is one of my closest matches, 105/111, as well. The third able to trace his mdka to Europe is Beddoes, which is a Welsh surname. His mdka comes from right along the Welsh border in Shropshire. That area used to be part of Wales. I do not know Beddoes' kit number. Beddoes matches me 65/67.

Melksham in Wiltshire is not all that far from the Welsh border, and the surname Self has a Welsh surname that looks and sounds very similar: Selyf.

The surnames in the cluster thus far are as follows:

Beddoes
Chorn
Cooper
Dugger
Mayson
Price
Samuel
Self
Stephens
Stevens
Webb

The surnames Beddoes, Price, and Samuel are Welsh. Stephens/Stevens is also a Welsh surname, but it is found in England, Ireland, and Scotland, as well. In this case, I think it is safe to regard it as Welsh, however, since our closest matches (I am a Stevens) either trace their mdkas to Wales or have Welsh surnames.

Cooper is an occupational English surname, but our Cooper is a 66/67 match for Self.

Dugger is, I believe, a Scots surname.

Mayson is believed to be an English surname of Norman origin. I do not know if that is true or not.

Webb is an English occupational surname. It is very common in Shropshire. In fact, the very first documented instance of a man swimming the English Channel was a Webb from Shropshire: Matthew Webb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Webb).

So there you have it: pretty much what we know thus far. The 41-1123 cluster appears to have as its geographic locus Wales and perhaps SW England, but Dugger is a Scots surname, so there is the possibility of a more general Brythonic connection.

We have our own little FTDNA project here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b_41_1123/). I have not yet succeeded in getting all of the members of the cluster to join.

rms2
10-06-2014, 05:35 PM
I mentioned above that I think the surname Dugger is of Scots origin, but that is not really clear. I have since read that it can be French, an Americanized version of Dugard, or German, as well. So, anyway, that one is up in the air. The rest of the members of the cluster are either of Isles origin or have Isles surnames, so I find the French or German origin stories doubtful in the case of our cluster's Dugger. Our Dugger is a 107/111 match for Self, so there is a very close connection between Self, Dugger, and Cooper.

rms2
10-09-2014, 07:55 AM
Got my BY166+ result this morning. :beerchug::beerchug:

rms2
10-10-2014, 11:05 PM
I have written once again to the members of the 41-1123 cluster who are not yet members of the R1b-41-1123 Project urging them to join. I heard from one of them saying he tried to join but had a technical problem doing it. I wrote back with step-by-step instructions on how to join. He hasn't joined yet, but I'm still hoping he will.

I have not heard from the others yet.

Sigh . . .

rms2
10-11-2014, 02:41 PM
You can see the position of BY166 beneath DF41 on the left side of Mike Walsh's excellent R1b-L21 Descendant Tree Chart here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pdf).

rms2
10-11-2014, 03:25 PM
Mayson, kit 140321, just joined the R1b-41-1123 Project. :)

rms2
10-11-2014, 04:39 PM
Another possible surname in our cluster is Kendle. I did not include it in the list in the OP above because it is based on a 37-marker match (he matches me 35/37) rather than on 67 markers or more. I have tried to get this particular Kendle to upgrade to 67 or more markers and/or to test for DF41, but thus far to no avail. I do believe he belongs in our cluster, however.

The surname Kendle (more commonly spelled Kendall) is supposed to be taken from the market town of Kendal in Cumbria.

Kendal, Cumbria (http://tinyurl.com/num5jmy)

rms2
10-12-2014, 08:07 PM
I ran all the 111-marker haplotypes in the R1b-41-1123 Project through McGee's Utility (FTDNA 111 mode) and got a TMRCA range of about 470 AD to 920 AD (i.e., 1,530 years to 1,080 years, comparing 95% probability and 50% probability runs). That's for the whole set, of course, Many of us within the cluster are related within genealogical time, although we don't yet know exactly how.

Now it's time to do like just about everyone else and find some king to claim as our y-dna ancestor. ;)

rms2
10-13-2014, 09:02 AM
Another possible surname in our cluster is Kendle. I did not include it in the list in the OP above because it is based on a 37-marker match (he matches me 35/37) rather than on 67 markers or more. I have tried to get this particular Kendle to upgrade to 67 or more markers and/or to test for DF41, but thus far to no avail. I do believe he belongs in our cluster, however.

The surname Kendle (more commonly spelled Kendall) is supposed to be taken from the market town of Kendal in Cumbria.

Kendal, Cumbria (http://tinyurl.com/num5jmy)

Kendle has joined the R1b-41-1123 Project. B)

David Mc
10-13-2014, 07:26 PM
Got my BY166+ result this morning. :beerchug::beerchug:

Big congratulations... and I hope you see more samples being added to your branch soon.

David Mc
10-13-2014, 07:32 PM
Interestingly, we have a Kendall in DF49, ZP20, as well. My understanding is that it can be either Cumbrian (as per the town you mentioned) or from Yorkshire. Surname analysis will tell you that it's Norse in origin, but I find that linguistic origins aren't a v Normery reliable way to determine a family line's origins. I would say the same with regard to Dugger, as well. It is possible that it could be derived from Norman French. The Normans had a fairly solid presence in the eastern part of Wales, and the original nameholder could be Norman or a Welshman who took on a Franco-Norman name.


Another possible surname in our cluster is Kendle. I did not include it in the list in the OP above because it is based on a 37-marker match (he matches me 35/37) rather than on 67 markers or more. I have tried to get this particular Kendle to upgrade to 67 or more markers and/or to test for DF41, but thus far to no avail. I do believe he belongs in our cluster, however.

The surname Kendle (more commonly spelled Kendall) is supposed to be taken from the market town of Kendal in Cumbria.

Kendal, Cumbria (http://tinyurl.com/num5jmy)

rms2
10-14-2014, 12:54 AM
Big congratulations... and I hope you see more samples being added to your branch soon.

Thanks!

Thus far there are just three of us that I know of with BY166+ results. The others in our cluster aren't exactly trampling each other in their haste to order it, but that's okay. I am just really happy they have joined the project and so many of them have gone to 111 markers.

rms2
10-14-2014, 11:51 AM
Kendle has ordered a DF41 test. That's a good start. We'll worry about BY166 and upgrading to more STR markers later.

I would like to get everyone in the project up to 111 markers and get a couple of more sets of Big Y results, but we have no money in our project's general fund, so we now rely on the members being motivated enough to pay for their own tests (like most projects).

rms2
10-23-2014, 12:34 AM
One of my closest matches (107/111) has ordered BY166. Naturally, I expect him to be BY166+.

rms2
11-09-2014, 12:34 PM
Recently I was looking at the surname maps at World Family Names Public Profiler (http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Main.aspx). I noticed that most of the maps of the surnames in the 41-1123 cluster seem to intersect round about Shropshire and Wales in what would have been the old kingdom of Powys. Here is something interesting about Powys in Nora Chadwick's good old book (from 1963), Celtic Britain:

"The kingdom of Powys - beautiful, fertile Powys, 'the Paradise of Wales' as the Llywarch Hen poet calls it - doubtless arose from the old kingdom of the Cornovii, with its capital at Viroconium (Wroxeter) and its sentinel the Wrekin. It was always the gateway to Wales and had to guard its fords jealously" (p. 60).

The Cornovii were a Celtic tribe who were honored by the Romans by being allowed to act as auxiliary Roman troops within their own tribal lands, a rare gift, since most tribal auxilia were sent elsewhere, outside their own territory.

That doesn't mean we go all the way back to the Cornovii, but why not? Y-haplogroup L21 was recently found in the body of an Iron Age Celt (he was also DF21+>DF25+), circa A.D. 1, in Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, England. We are L21+ (and DF41+). It would not be too surprising if our y-dna ancestors were among the Cornovii in what became old Powys.

Let me stop and say that I realize there has been a lot of movement in the British Isles since the Roman Period. I am not silly enough to think that surname maps that show a locus in the old kingdom of Powys are proof that one is a descendant of the Cornovii. That is not a claim I am making. But it is fun to think about and to talk about, especially when no one else is posting anything in the DF41 subforum.

Here is a map showing the location of the old kingdom of Powys.

2912

Here's a photo of "the Wrekin" in Shropshire, site of the old Celtic hill fort of the Cornovii.

2913

Here is a photo of the type of bronze sword found in the old kingdom of the Cornovii. This type is called the "Ewart Park Sword". Of course, it is Bronze Age stuff, well before the Roman entry into Britain.

2914

rms2
12-18-2014, 12:44 AM
Kendle, kit 195898, got his DF41+ result today. He has not tested for BY166 yet.

Stephens, kit 208061, who is a 107/111 match for me, got his BY166+ result this morning.

Dubhthach
12-18-2014, 09:39 AM
What's the widest GD within BY166 at the moment?

rms2
12-18-2014, 11:54 AM
What's the widest GD within BY166 at the moment?

I'm not at home right now to make a real exact check, but it looks like 19 or 20.

I have a spreadsheet at home. I'll check it later and report back. I just don't remember the exact figure right offhand.

rms2
12-18-2014, 12:18 PM
Here's what I posted on the Results page of the R1b-41-1123 Project the last time I ran things through McGee's Utility:



A recent comparison of the 111-marker haplotypes in the project yielded a maximum TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor), at 95% probability, of 1,530 years. At 50% probability, that figure drops to 1,080 years. At 75% probability, it is 1,260 years. A TMRCA range of from 1,080-1,530 years is probably the most accurate way to think of it. So, it seems likely our Most Recent Common Ancestor lived sometime between 470 AD and 920 AD.

Of course, that was using the year 2000 as the terminal year. Probably around 1950 would be more accurate, since none of us in the cluster was born in 2000. So 420 AD - 870 AD would be better.

rms2
12-26-2014, 02:51 PM
What's the widest GD within BY166 at the moment?

Sorry it took me so long to remember to look that up, but my last trip through McGee's Utility (back in October) shows the widest distance within BY166 to be 18 at 111 markers. That is between Self, kit 53479, and Stevens (ancestor Obadiah Stevens, b. 1787 in Fayette Co., Pennsylvania), kit 326490. McGee's shows a TMRCA of 1530 years at 95% probability for that amount of genetic distance. I myself am a gd of 17 away from Self at 111 markers.

Using 1950 as the terminal year, that brings us back to 420 AD.

3283

rms2
02-01-2015, 12:04 PM
Just got a new exact 12-marker match a couple of days ago who turned into a 23/25 neighbor who then disappeared from my radar at 37 markers but who still shows up as a 33/37 neighbor for some of the other guys in the 41-1123 cluster. The surname is Phillips. I emailed the lady responsible for the kit, which belongs to her cousin. She seems interested.

The trouble with our haplotype cluster and such relatively distant neighbors at 37 markers is our resemblance to certain U106+ haplotypes. So, this might turn out to be a new member of our cluster, or he could be a U106+ guy who just happens to look like us at 37 and fewer markers. Time will tell.

This lady said she has had her cousin tested with 23andMe, so we should know soon whether or not he is L21+ at least. If he is L21+, then he probably belongs to our haplotype cluster. I hope that is the case. We could use some new recruits.

I'm guessing this new match is kit 345273 in the Phillips DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/phillips/default.aspx?section=yresults), in the "Family Group 89" category. There are two kits there, and they both look like they belong in our cluster, except for their 25 at 447 (the rest of us have 24 there).

rms2
02-02-2015, 02:54 AM
Just got a new exact 12-marker match a couple of days ago who turned into a 23/25 neighbor who then disappeared from my radar at 37 markers but who still shows up as a 33/37 neighbor for some of the other guys in the 41-1123 cluster. The surname is Phillips. I emailed the lady responsible for the kit, which belongs to her cousin. She seems interested.

The trouble with our haplotype cluster and such relatively distant neighbors at 37 markers is our resemblance to certain U106+ haplotypes. So, this might turn out to be a new member of our cluster, or he could be a U106+ guy who just happens to look like us at 37 and fewer markers. Time will tell.

This lady said she has had her cousin tested with 23andMe, so we should know soon whether or not he is L21+ at least. If he is L21+, then he probably belongs to our haplotype cluster. I hope that is the case. We could use some new recruits.

I'm guessing this new match is kit 345273 in the Phillips DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/phillips/default.aspx?section=yresults), in the "Family Group 89" category. There are two kits there, and they both look like they belong in our cluster, except for their 25 at 447 (the rest of us have 24 there).

I heard back from the lady in charge of this Phillips kit. According to 23andMe he is L21+ (R1b1b2a1a2f at 23andMe), which means he is in our cluster. She said she will join him to the R1b-41-1123 Project and order BY166. Outstanding! Some new blood! :beerchug:

I saw on the net that Phillips can be a Welsh patronymic surname, which makes sense in our cluster.

rms2
02-03-2015, 01:03 PM
I heard back from the lady in charge of this Phillips kit. According to 23andMe he is L21+ (R1b1b2a1a2f at 23andMe), which means he is in our cluster. She said she will join him to the R1b-41-1123 Project and order BY166. Outstanding! Some new blood! :beerchug:

I saw on the net that Phillips can be a Welsh patronymic surname, which makes sense in our cluster.

Ah, well. The woman in charge of this kit is having trouble logging back into it, so she has emailed FTDNA, which has not exactly been Johnny-on-the-spot lately in answering emails (at least not mine). So, we're waiting on a fix for her login problem before she can join Phillips to the R1b-41-1123 Project and order BY166 for him. I want to get him into the R L21 and R DF41 Projects, as well, but I don't want to heap too much on this lady at once.

I've scared folks off before by trying for too much at once.

rms2
02-04-2015, 01:13 AM
I heard again from the lady in charge of this Phillips kit. She got tired of waiting for an email from FTDNA. so she called them. They straightened out the login problem and she ordered BY166 over the phone. She said she will join Phillips to the R1b-41-1123 Project when she gets home this evening.

rms2
02-05-2015, 01:09 AM
Phillips, kit 345273, is the newest member of the R1b-41-1123 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b_41_1123/default.aspx?section=yresults) now. He's in the Group 1 category. He has BY166 on order.

Phillips is evidently a Welsh patronymic surname.

rms2
02-08-2015, 02:07 PM
We had a second Phillips, kit 373605, join yesterday. He is three off the first Phillips, kit 345273, at 37 markers, but the two are second cousins. We have a third Phillips haplotype neighbor in our cluster who is likewise not an exact match for the other two, but he has not joined the project yet.

Here is the list of cluster surnames thus far:

Beddoes
Chorn
Cooper
Dugger
Kendle
Mayson
Phillips
Price
Samuel
Self
Stephens/Stevens
Webb

rms2
03-16-2015, 11:03 PM
We had a second Phillips, kit 373605, join yesterday. He is three off the first Phillips, kit 345273, at 37 markers, but the two are second cousins. We have a third Phillips haplotype neighbor in our cluster who is likewise not an exact match for the other two, but he has not joined the project yet.

Here is the list of cluster surnames thus far:

Beddoes
Chorn
Cooper
Dugger
Kendle
Mayson
Phillips
Price
Samuel
Self
Stephens/Stevens
Webb

Still waiting on BY166 results for those two Phillipses. FTDNA has really been slow with the individual SNP orders of late.

rms2
03-28-2015, 01:12 PM
Phillips, kit 345273, got his BY166+ result this morning at long last. That confirms the Phillipses are in the 41-1123 cluster (not that there was much doubt).

rms2
03-31-2015, 12:51 PM
Phillips, kit 345273, got his BY166+ result this morning at long last. That confirms the Phillipses are in the 41-1123 cluster (not that there was much doubt).

The second Phillips, kit 373605, got his BY166+ result this morning. No surprise there, but it's nice to finally get the result.

As I mentioned before, Phillips is a Welsh patronymic surname (although it occurs among other peoples, as well). Interesting how so many Welsh patronymic surnames took a similar form when anglicized. What is curious is the addition of an s rather than a son. Wonder why that is.

rms2
04-23-2015, 11:35 PM
I just picked up a new 35/37 neighbor today with the decidedly Welsh patronymic surname Jones. Of course, at just 37 markers (all he has thus far), I don't know for sure that he is a member of our cluster, but he is only two away from me and has a Welsh surname, so it seems likely that he is. I emailed him. Hopefully, he'll respond.

rms2
04-24-2015, 12:11 AM
I just picked up a new 35/37 neighbor today with the decidedly Welsh patronymic surname Jones. Of course, at just 37 markers (all he has thus far), I don't know for sure that he is a member of our cluster, but he is only two away from me and has a Welsh surname, so it seems likely that he is. I emailed him. Hopefully, he'll respond.

Guess I should have mentioned that Jones is an exact 12-marker match for me, and one off at 25 markers before going to two off at 37. I think he is probably a member of the 41-1123 cluster. I am excited about the potential further confirmation of the likely Welsh nature of the cluster. Hope I hear from him soon.

Kopfjäger
04-24-2015, 12:23 AM
I just picked up a new 35/37 neighbor today with the decidedly Welsh patronymic surname Jones. Of course, at just 37 markers (all he has thus far), I don't know for sure that he is a member of our cluster, but he is only two away from me and has a Welsh surname, so it seems likely that he is. I emailed him. Hopefully, he'll respond.

The ancients have been generous to you, Rich lol. You've managed to nail down a small, general area in Britain where your folks originated, which is more than what many of us can vouch for, still brick-walled in Appalachia.

rms2
04-24-2015, 12:27 AM
The ancients have been generous to you, Rich lol. You've managed to nail down a small, general area in Britain where your folks originated, which is more than what many of us can vouch for, still brick-walled in Appalachia.

I'm still brickwalled in the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia myself, but I have learned a lot from the cluster I belong to, since its members who can trace an ancestor to the Old Country trace him to Wales or just across the Welsh border in England, and the rest of us have Welsh surnames. The cluster has been a blessing, even if my own old paper trail hasn't been of much use.

rms2
04-24-2015, 12:42 AM
I just heard from my new match, Mr. Jones. He says his paternal grandfather was born in Wales. Mr. Jones also said he will upgrade to more markers and order BY166, as well.

That was quick! He really seems interested.

Kopfjäger
04-24-2015, 01:12 AM
I'm still brickwalled in the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia myself, but I have learned a lot from the cluster I belong to, since its members who can trace an ancestor to the Old Country trace him to Wales or just across the Welsh border in England, and the rest of us have Welsh surnames. The cluster has been a blessing, even if my own old paper trail hasn't been of much use.

Yeah, there's something about the West Virginia-Virginia-North Carolina area that is a black hole for paper trails. My DNA matches give me some clues, but nothing to the effect of your cluster.

Kopfjäger
04-24-2015, 01:13 AM
I just heard from my new match, Mr. Jones. He says his paternal grandfather was born in Wales. Mr. Jones also said he will upgrade to more markers and order BY166, as well.

That was quick! He really seems interested.

Geez, that was quick lol. *Scratches head

rms2
04-24-2015, 11:00 AM
Geez, that was quick lol. *Scratches head

Yeah, we've already exchanged several emails. I misunderstood the bit about his immigrant ancestor though. The mdka wasn't his grandfather; he was a slightly more remote ancestor, like a second or third great grandfather (I haven't quite established how many greats yet). Anyway, the born-in-Wales part was correct.

rms2
04-25-2015, 12:24 PM
Yeah, we've already exchanged several emails. I misunderstood the bit about his immigrant ancestor though. The mdka wasn't his grandfather; he was a slightly more remote ancestor, like a second or third great grandfather (I haven't quite established how many greats yet). Anyway, the born-in-Wales part was correct.

It was his 3rd great grandfather who was born in Wales . . . in 1829. He said his "earliest paternal grandfather" was born in Wales, and I fastened on the words "paternal grandfather" and missed the modifier "earliest", by which he meant his mdka. Mr. Jones' mdka is listed in a census record as born in "Cardien", Wales, but I cannot find such a place. I think it's sloppy handwriting or a near-deaf census official. Probably Cardigan or Cardiff was meant.

rms2
05-01-2015, 11:26 AM
I thought I would post an update of the list of surnames in the R1b-41-1123 Cluster (L21>DF13>DF41>BY166) thus far:

Beddoes
Chorn
Cooper
Dugger
Jones
Kendle
Mayson
Phillips
Price
Samuel
Self
Stephens/Stevens
Webb

I have mentioned before that the members of the cluster who can trace a y-dna ancestor across the Atlantic have ancestry in Wales, for the most part, or very near the Welsh border in western England.

Cooper, Dugger, and Self form a group within the cluster with the following marker values: 437=14, 460=10, 534=13, and 446=13.

Since Self in that group has Big Y results already, and Samuel, one of my closest 111-marker matches, has Big Y results, I am thinking that perhaps the comparison of my upcoming Big Y results might show a terminal SNP downstream of BY166 shared by Samuel and me that we do not share with Self, Cooper, and Dugger, thus teasing the group apart a little.

rms2
05-16-2015, 02:17 PM
Here's a Welsh rugby player with the surname Phillips. There's no guarantee he's related to our Phillipses, but he could be.


https://www.facebook.com/worldrugby7s/videos/10152757407801046/

rms2
05-28-2015, 11:45 PM
Jones, kit B41942, got his BY166+ result today. That confirms his membership in our cluster. I'm hoping he will upgrade to 67 or even 111 markers now.

rms2
06-26-2015, 12:12 PM
A few days ago we picked up an exact 25-marker match who drops off the FTDNA radar for most of us at 37 markers, except for one of the Phillipses, for whom he is a 34/37 match. This one is another Jones, but evidently he is not a close relative of the first Jones, since they are 24/25 and not matches at 37 markers (all this Jones has thus far).

I emailed him but have not heard back yet.

I mention this chiefly because this is another Jones match, which tends to show the Welshness of the cluster. A buddy of mine remarked that he couldn't see how one could be Welsh without some matches named Jones. Well, okay then!

I remember back in 2006 when my first 37-marker results came in and I had a few matches with the surname Price. A guy over at FTDNA's forum commented that he thought that meant I was probably Welsh in my y-dna line. At the time I was having none of it, since at that time I was still nursing "Viking" and "Germanic" fantasies. But apparently he was right.

greystones22
07-12-2015, 11:26 AM
It looks like you might have found a bona fide Welsh/Marches cluster. And am I right in thinking no-one has mentioned a dark age king yet? Must be a record ;-)
Well done!

rms2
07-12-2015, 02:27 PM
It looks like you might have found a bona fide Welsh/Marches cluster. And am I right in thinking no-one has mentioned a dark age king yet? Must be a record ;-)
Well done!

Thank you very much! It certainly looks that way. Now that I have been to Wales and western England, I am doubly thrilled, since those places are beautiful, the people friendly, and the food and drink excellent. The people there seem to like dogs a lot, too, which pleased my youngest daughter to no end.

You are right, none of us has mentioned a dark age king yet (although I am secretly holding out for Arthur). ;)

rms2
07-12-2015, 07:28 PM
Well, I just looked up about every male Beddoes I could find on Facebook and sent each of them the following message (or very close):


My name is Richard Stevens, and I am an American of Welsh descent. I am NOT trying to sell you anything, and I realize you probably have no reason not to ignore this message, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to try. I have had my y-dna (the dna on the y chromosome) tested, and I have a couple of close matches with men with the surname Beddoes. Unfortunately, they are not very communicative. I was hoping you might be interested enough to have your y-dna tested. Here is the company to use: https://www.familytreedna.com/
There is a group of us who are close matches, all centered in the old kingdom of Powys. We appear to belong to a Welsh/Marches cluster.
Anyway, if you are interested, you can email me at . . . [email omitted here to avoid being overwhelmed by attractive females with offers of matrimony]
Thanks!
Richard

Among the closest matches of many of us in this cluster are two cousins with the surname Beddoes who have been frustratingly reticent about communicating and ordering upgrades. I know this was a shot in the dark, but I am hoping at least one of these men will test, will belong to our cluster, and will be enthusiastic and open about it all. Yeah, I know:


https://youtu.be/RfHnzYEHAow

Dubhthach
07-13-2015, 10:43 AM
Who needs dark age kings as ancestor when ye can have Stewarts as distant cousins anyways ;)

rms2
07-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Who needs dark age kings as ancestor when ye can have Stewarts as distant cousins anyways ;)

Good point! :beerchug:

rms2
07-16-2015, 11:23 PM
I mentioned this elsewhere here at Anthrogenica, but I am thrilled about the prospect of it, so I thought I would mention it here. I recruited a man in Wales with my surname (he spells it with a ph, however, which I think is the original spelling) for y-dna testing, and I finally heard from him. He is going to follow through with the testing as soon as I get a test kit sent to him via FTDNA. I don't have any special knowledge that he is a relative, but he has the right surname and is from the right area (Llandrindod Wells, Powys, Wales), so we have a shot. In a couple of months we'll know, one way or the other.

Wish I could have recruited a thousand or more men from that area for testing, but I don't have that kind of money.

rms2
07-21-2015, 11:56 AM
We made it onto ISOGG's R Tree as R1b1a2a1a2c1i8 BY166/Z18021: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

That's good news. (Thanks to Rory Cain for pointing out that a number of SNPs have been added to ISOGG's R Tree, which prompted me to look for BY166.)

rms2
07-25-2015, 01:16 PM
Here (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=7) on the DF41/S524 section of Alex Williamson's excellent "The Big Tree" are our shared SNPs thus far from Big Y results. Scroll down and to the right until you find the little box containing the surnames Self, Samuel, and Stevens, then follow the line up to the long list of shared SNPs.

rms2
09-14-2015, 12:24 PM
FTDNA has changed my terminal SNP to BY178, which is also known as Z18037. Interesting.

There's nothing wrong with that. It is one of the SNPs I tested positive for with the Big Y.

Dubhthach
09-14-2015, 12:49 PM
This is due to them offering a DF41 bundle. I has a quick look at Alex's page there. It would seem that block containing BY178 which you share with Samuel and Selfe is made up of 25 SNP's:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=463&star=false

FTDNA have included 16 of these SNP's in the bundle, so if there's any chance of splitting block into sub-blocks the bundle might do this. They obviously just choosed BY178 as label for whole bunch of SNP's that's in bundle. Ideally we should get at least one member of your cluster to order Bundle. This will help validate these SNP's.

I need to get onto FTDNA about the layout of their haplotree for DF41, it has some obvious mistakes (I think they have A105 which is one of SNP's in my cluster as equivalent to DF41 etc.)

At the moment it's on "sale" for $99, getting status verified for 16 SNP's in one STR cluster for $99 ain't bad!

Dubhthach
09-14-2015, 12:50 PM
Should note here's the list of SNP's from your cluster that is in the bundle, for reference:


$ for i in `cat DF41-Bundle.txt`
> do
> grep $i BY178
> done
Z18037 BY178
Z18014 BY160
Z18017 BY163
Z18018 BY164
Z18019 BY165
Z18021 BY166
Z18022 BY167
Z18023 BY168
Z18024 BY169
Z18025 BY170
Z18029 BY171
Z17470 BY172 SK563
Z18030 BY173
Z18031 BY174
Z18035 BY176
Z18036 BY177


So it also includes BY166

rms2
09-14-2015, 03:36 PM
I wish I had known FTDNA was going to put everything under the BY178 rubric. Not too long ago I was asked by one of our cluster members what to test for (of course, first I recommended the Big Y), and I told him to test for BY166. I would have said BY178 had I known it would show up as his terminal SNP in FTDNA projects.

rms2
09-14-2015, 03:47 PM
Well, here's something interesting. Self is not showing up as R1b-BY178, and BY178+ does not show up in his list of SNPs on my GAP. However, his Big Y results do show BY178+, but with only medium confidence.

Samuel and I have BY178+ with high confidence.

I guess FTDNA does not give one the green terminal SNP designation unless the result is high confidence. Hmmm . . .

TigerMW
09-15-2015, 12:14 PM
FTDNA has changed my terminal SNP to BY178, which is also known as Z18037. Interesting.

There's nothing wrong with that. It is one of the SNPs I tested positive for with the Big Y.

I hadn't asked yet, but I plan to ask FTDNA how they select a "lead with" SNP a short-label haplogroup name. Over in L513 they seem to have selected S5892 rather than L193 for a pretty big and well tested bunch - so there is some consternation. In this case, we know L193 is recurrent and Thomas Krahn has said it has problems so there appears to be some sense to it. On the other hand I was in something that I thought they would call R-CTS6621 but instead is R-Z16400. I have no idea why. CTS6621 has been identified some time ago and is in Geno 2.

I still see the value of the long haplogroup names but agree for the most part, particularly in conversations, the short names are better.

Dubhthach
09-15-2015, 12:22 PM
Would be handy if they kept to the ISOGG tree in some cases. BY166 is on ISOGG, probably make sense having it as default label. Of course with large number of SNP's in the block been part of test, you might get lucky and spilt it.

rms2
09-16-2015, 01:44 AM
Well, I just switched my Anthrogenica profile to show R1b-BY178 simply because that's what shows up in my projects. I think David Samuel and I are the only ones showing that terminal SNP.

I thought about sticking with BY166 since it is on ISOGG's tree, but I kind of like the way BY178 looks. :biggrin1:

Gray Fox
09-16-2015, 03:34 AM
Well, I just switched my Anthrogenica profile to show R1b-BY178 simply because that's what shows up in my projects. I think David Samuel and I are the only ones showing that terminal SNP.

I thought about sticking with BY166 since it is on ISOGG's tree, but I kind of like the way BY178 looks. :biggrin1:

Completely unrelated to your haplogroup, but I too changed my profile today. DF2627 is what I chose as a homage to the early basal form, my current known mutation and the defunct DNA-Forums (Which DF27 is partly named after). I'd actually seen another SRY2627 guy on here with the same designation, so that's where I got the idea. I just gave it a bit more meaning. A one time poster from Belgium if I remember correctly.. I'm sure he won't mind my thievery :beerchug:

rms2
09-17-2015, 11:09 PM
I wish I had known FTDNA was going to put everything under the BY178 rubric. Not too long ago I was asked by one of our cluster members what to test for (of course, first I recommended the Big Y), and I told him to test for BY166. I would have said BY178 had I known it would show up as his terminal SNP in FTDNA projects.

I caught that cluster member in time to change his order to BY178.

rms2
10-08-2015, 08:51 PM
Webb, kit 163684, got his BY178+ result. That makes three of us who are listed in our FTDNA projects as R1b-BY178.

TigerMW
10-09-2015, 03:51 AM
Webb, kit 163684, got his BY178+ result. That makes three of us who are listed in our FTDNA projects as R1b-BY178.
Very good. It's kind of cool to see this stuff on actual public project screens. About a month ago all of the sudden I popped as R-ZW02. I thought, wow, that's quite a change from the days of R1b1c* or whatever that I was for a long time.

Did we ever figure out why they picked BY178 versus BY166? That kind of stuff baffles me. I understand there are criteria but certainly like a blackbox from the outside.

rms2
10-09-2015, 03:37 PM
Very good. It's kind of cool to see this stuff on actual public project screens. About a month ago all of the sudden I popped as R-ZW02. I thought, wow, that's quite a change from the days of R1b1c* or whatever that I was for a long time.

Did we ever figure out why they picked BY178 versus BY166? That kind of stuff baffles me. I understand there are criteria but certainly like a blackbox from the outside.

I still don't know why FTDNA chose BY178 over BY166 (or any of the other SNPs shared by the members of our cluster). I'm happy with it though. I kind of like the way BY178 looks; I don't know why.

rms2
10-13-2015, 10:07 PM
I mentioned this elsewhere here at Anthrogenica, but I am thrilled about the prospect of it, so I thought I would mention it here. I recruited a man in Wales with my surname (he spells it with a ph, however, which I think is the original spelling) for y-dna testing, and I finally heard from him. He is going to follow through with the testing as soon as I get a test kit sent to him via FTDNA. I don't have any special knowledge that he is a relative, but he has the right surname and is from the right area (Llandrindod Wells, Powys, Wales), so we have a shot. In a couple of months we'll know, one way or the other.

Wish I could have recruited a thousand or more men from that area for testing, but I don't have that kind of money.

Well, the man's 12-marker results finally came in and . . . no cigar. He doesn't match me nor even belong to the same y haplogroup. FTDNA gives him I-M170, but many if not most of his numerous exact matches (40 pages' worth) have tested I-M253, so that is probably what he is. He only has one Stephens match, a guy in the Stephens Project with an mdka in North Carolina. Otherwise, he only has a couple of matches with Welsh surnames. The rest are Germans, Scandinavians, English, etc.: the usual Germanic-looking I-M253 set.

Oh, well. Back to the drawing board.

rms2
12-30-2015, 06:26 PM
FTDNA has fixed the display of different terminal SNPs on on the R1b-41-1123 Project web site. It showed the three of us who have had the Big Y with different terminal SNPs, even though we tested positive for the same SNPs that are on the tree (i.e., excluding mutations unique to individuals). Now FTDNA shows the three of us as R-BY160.

The bad part about that is that, when BY166 appeared to be the chosen moniker, I recommended testing for BY166 to some of our members, and they did. They can now be seen on the project web site showing R-BY166. Then, when FTDNA switched to BY178, I recommended testing for it to another member. He can be seen at the project web site displaying R-BY178.

So now we have three different terminal SNPs downstream of DF41 displayed on our web site: BY160, BY166, and BY178. They are all correct, but that state of affairs is confusing to those who don't know how it came about.

I'm not going to ask FTDNA to make yet another fix and switch the three Big Y tested guys to either BY166 or BY178. I'll just leave well enough alone for now.

rms2
02-05-2016, 01:38 AM
One of our cluster members recently got an exact 37-marker match. Since our cluster is fairly unique at that level, I have little doubt this new match is a member. I emailed him but have yet to get a response.

rms2
02-27-2016, 01:50 AM
I thought I would post some UK surname distribution maps from this site (http://named.publicprofiler.org/) for the surnames in this cluster to show how they tend to overlap in mid Wales and the West Midlands of England. It will take me two posts to do it, since one can only post five pics per post.

7987 7988 7989

7990 7991

rms2
02-27-2016, 01:56 AM
I thought I would post some UK surname distribution maps from this site (http://named.publicprofiler.org/) for the surnames in this cluster to show how they tend to overlap in mid Wales and the West Midlands of England. It will take me two posts to do it, since one can only post five pics per post.

7987 7988 7989

7990 7991

Surnames in the R1b-41-1123 cluster, continued:

7992 7993 7994 7995

7996

I did not include Chorn and Dugger, because there were no data on those surnames. I left out Kendle, because with that spelling it was the odd man out, with a distribution in eastern England way out of line with all of the other surnames. I almost left out Cooper, since it is a pretty widely distributed occupational surname.

Based on my matches, including the fact that two of the closest spell our surname Stephens, I think that Stephens was probably the original spelling of my surname. The distribution of the Stevens spelling is a bit different, but my matches are a better fit for the Stephens distribution map above.

rms2
02-27-2016, 04:39 PM
I put together a collection of the distribution maps for the surnames in the R1b-41-1123 Project. It's not perfect; I'm not the most skilled manipulator of Paint.

I included Kendle this time, but, as you can see, it's the odd man out, with a distribution far to the east of the others. The representative of that surname, however, has no Kendle matches, two exact 37-marker Stephens matches and other very close Stephens/Stevens matches. He only has 37 markers thus far. It would be interesting to see how his Stephens/Stevens matches hold up at 67 and 111 markers.

8001

greystones22
02-27-2016, 06:01 PM
Rich you were going to test some "native" Stephens men from mid Wales, did that ever happen?

rms2
02-27-2016, 06:03 PM
Rich you were going to test some "native" Stephens men from mid Wales, did that ever happen?

I managed to recruit one Stephens from Llandrindod Wells. Unfortunately, he turned out to be I-M253!

It figures.

rms2
02-27-2016, 06:16 PM
I managed to recruit one Stephens from Llandrindod Wells. Unfortunately, he turned out to be I-M253!

It figures.

I think I would need to recruit quite a few more to have much of a chance of locating some y-dna relatives, although I was really hoping this man would turn out to be one.

I recruited him at the annual festival in Llandrindod Wells last 4th of July over a few pints.

greystones22
02-27-2016, 06:36 PM
I think DF41 is a rare beast, even in deepest mid Wales

rms2
02-27-2016, 06:42 PM
I put together a collection of the distribution maps for the surnames in the R1b-41-1123 Project. It's not perfect; I'm not the most skilled manipulator of Paint.

I included Kendle this time, but, as you can see, it's the odd man out, with a distribution far to the east of the others. The representative of that surname, however, has no Kendle matches, two exact 37-marker Stephens matches and other very close Stephens/Stevens matches. He only has 37 markers thus far. It would be interesting to see how his Stephens/Stevens matches hold up at 67 and 111 markers.

8001

My opinion is that the Welsh patronymic naming system is responsible for the differences in surnames in this cluster. I think we share a common Welsh ancestor sometime in the late Middle Ages or Renaissance period. A few of our lines, Webb (weaver), Cooper (barrel maker), and perhaps Mayson (for the trade of mason), took occupational surnames, while the rest stuck with patronymics.

rms2
02-27-2016, 07:02 PM
I think DF41 is a rare beast, even in deepest mid Wales

That does seem to be true. We do get the occasional new DF41+, but with all the new SNP Pack testing, one would think we would get more of them. We're one of the rarer L21 subclades, I think.

jdean
02-27-2016, 07:12 PM
That does seem to be true. We do get the occasional new DF41+, but with all the new SNP Pack testing, one think we would get more of them. We're one of the rarer L21 subclades, I think.

DF49xM222 are like buses, none for ages then two or three turn up together : )

rms2
02-27-2016, 07:20 PM
DF49xM222 are like buses, none for ages then two or three turn up together : )

I got an email a couple of days ago from a guy in the L21 Project to whom I recommended an upgrade to 111 markers awhile back. He basically chewed me out because he got his upgrade and could not see how it was helping him at all. At first I thought, oh, too bad, but then I took a look at his matches. The man had just about the most matches at 111 markers I had ever seen, and many of them were SNP tested! It turned out they were DF41+ and MC13+ and part of the 1426 cluster, which is the largest cluster in DF41. I looked at his haplotype, and he is pretty obviously in that cluster, as well.

Needless to say, I wrote him back and pointed out to him that he had benefited more from an upgrade to 111 markers than just about anyone ever. Now he has MC13 on order.

Before the upgrade all he knew was that he was L21+, and he knew that only from 23andMe testing.

jdean
02-27-2016, 07:24 PM
Hope he was grateful after you pointed him the right direction.

rms2
02-27-2016, 07:26 PM
Hope he was grateful after you pointed him the right direction.

He seemed pretty happy in the subsequent email in which he thanked me. I think he just didn't really know how to maneuver around in his myFTDNA pages or did not really understand what it was he was seeing there.

rms2
02-29-2016, 11:16 PM
Jones, kit B41942, now has an 111-marker upgrade on order, which represents a nice jump up from just 37 markers. He is a 35/37 match for me, so this should be interesting.

rms2
03-16-2016, 10:43 PM
Got another Price match today (60/67), this one out of New Zealand. I emailed him and invited him to join the project and test for BY160, our current FTDNA-preferred terminal SNP.

Apparently our boys spread all over the friggin' Anglophone world, since we have cluster members in Wales, Canada, the USA, and New Zealand now. I think we carry the gene for wanderlust.

rms2
03-20-2016, 12:35 PM
Jones, kit B41942, got his 111-marker upgrade results as of this morning, over a month earlier than they were predicted to come in. His closest matches are Samuel, kit N104746, at 107/111 (pretty close), and Stephens, kit 208061, at 105/111. He matches Webb, kit 163684, at 104/111, and me, kit 59080, at 103/111. So, Jones stuck pretty close at 111 markers, which puts him right in the thick of the cluster. All of these matches, kit numbers and names can be clearly seen on the public web site, so I'm not leaving the barn door open by mentioning them here.

rms2
03-20-2016, 05:11 PM
I updated my little table of closest y-dna matches to include Jones' upgrade to 111 markers and our new Price from New Zealand, who is among my 60/67 matches but drops off my FTDNA radar at 111 markers.

If I could afford it, I would buy all of them Big Y tests and upgrades to 111 markers. That would be nice.

8281

rms2
03-31-2016, 11:17 PM
We have acquired two new members in the last couple of days, both with the surname Cates and both of them exact 37-marker matches for Cooper and Self in Category B on our web site, which is set apart by its marker values of 437=14, 460=10, 534=13, and 446=13.

Here is a map of the distribution of the surname Cates. Given the spread of the rest of our surnames, I'm betting our Cates represent the hotspot around the mouth of the Severn rather than the hotter spot over in the Norfolk/Suffolk area.

8533

rms2
04-09-2016, 01:49 AM
At my request, FTDNA has switched our terminal SNP back to BY166, which is reflected on our public web site. That's good, since a number of our members who have not had Big Y tests tested for BY166 and were all BY166+. This gets us all lined up and showing the same terminal SNP, which makes things less confusing for newbies.

8657

This is good, too, because ISOGG has BY166 on its tree but not BY160, which is what we Big Y tested guys were showing up until today.

rms2
04-17-2016, 02:31 AM
Webb, kit 163684, has ordered BY166. I am sure he will get a BY166+ result. He already tested BY178+ back during the short period when FTDNA was using BY178 as our terminal SNP.

Interesting that Webb is the surname of one of Wales' best rugby players: Rhys Webb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_Webb)

rms2
04-23-2016, 04:27 PM
Trout, kit 215164, just joined the R1b-41-1123 Project today. Group 2, where Self, Cooper, and the Cates are, is starting to flesh out.

8984

rms2
06-16-2016, 12:13 AM
I picked up a new Stephens 64/67 match today: kit B112267. He is in the Stephens/Stevens Project, but he does not yet have a most distant y-dna ancestor listed.

I emailed him and asked him about his mdka and invited him to join the R1b-41-1123 Project.

This man is my third close match with the Stephens spelling variant.

TigerMW
06-28-2016, 08:27 PM
Trout, kit 215164, just joined the R1b-41-1123 Project today. Group 2, where Self, Cooper, and the Cates are, is starting to flesh out.

8984

Does this all point back to the South West Peninsula or to Wales for BY166?

rms2
06-28-2016, 08:43 PM
Does this all point back to the South West Peninsula or to Wales for BY166?

Most of the surnames are centered in Wales, but it looks like the clade may have extended into SW England. Here's the whole collection of surname maps. I would ignore the hot spots in SE England (at least one of those surnames belongs to a man with no matches who share his surname but several exact Stevens/Stephens matches).

9973

rms2
08-12-2016, 11:27 PM
I picked up a new Stephens 64/67 match today: kit B112267. He is in the Stephens/Stevens Project, but he does not yet have a most distant y-dna ancestor listed.

I emailed him and asked him about his mdka and invited him to join the R1b-41-1123 Project.

This man is my third close match with the Stephens spelling variant.

Guess it wouldn't hurt to mention that this match has since gone to 106/111. His mdka was born in New Market, Maryland, around 1769.

rms2
08-26-2016, 11:06 PM
Webb, kit 163684, finally got his BY166+ result from FTDNA today. He had to wait a long time for it because they exhausted the dna in his old kit and had to send him a new one.

Dubhthach
09-18-2016, 09:31 AM
Have any of the BY166+ BigY/FGC men submitted to YFULL?

rms2
09-22-2016, 12:49 AM
Have any of the BY166+ BigY/FGC men submitted to YFULL?

I don't think so. I know I haven't.

Dubhthach
09-22-2016, 10:55 AM
I don't think so. I know I haven't.

It would be interesting to get at least two of ye up to get a estimate on age of the clade within DF41 well that and TMRCA between at least two of members. In my own branch I got a TMRCA of 1000 years ago for myself, Black and Moore (Black)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3515/

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=468&star=false

rms2
09-29-2016, 07:06 PM
I don't think any of the three of us who have done Big Y testing is willing to spend $50 on YFull right now.

rms2
11-05-2016, 12:13 AM
I'm hoping at least one of my close Stevens/Stephens matches will do the Big Y. We are also looking at hiring genealogists through Ancestry, and that is quite expensive, so the Big Y may have to wait.

Dubhthach
11-07-2016, 09:42 AM
I'm hoping at least one of my close Stevens/Stephens matches will do the Big Y. We are also looking at hiring genealogists through Ancestry, and that is quite expensive, so the Big Y may have to wait.

There's usually a sale around Thanksgiving right (had to google when that was ;) ) so might give some impetus.

rms2
11-07-2016, 11:58 PM
There's usually a sale around Thanksgiving right (had to google when that was ;) ) so might give some impetus.

True, and I have offered the money in the R1b-41-1123 Project's General Fund to help out. Hopefully someone will go for it. What is there was contributed by me and a couple of my Stevens matches.

rms2
12-28-2016, 03:27 PM
A few days ago we picked up a new R1b-41-1123 Project member, kit B132524, with the surname Jackson. He does not list an mdka. He only has 25 markers thus far. I have advised him to upgrade.

rms2
12-28-2016, 05:00 PM
My closest Stevens match thus far (109/111), kit 522600, has ordered the Big Y. That's good news. Maybe we'll get some family SNPs out of it that might save future matches from having to upgrade all the way to 111 STR markers.

donpat5898034
12-30-2016, 12:55 AM
Ordered My Big Y Tests Batch# 709 Results Expected 02/22/2017 - 03/08/2017

rms2
12-30-2016, 12:59 AM
Ordered My Big Y Tests Batch# 709 Results Expected 02/22/2017 - 03/08/2017

Hey! Glad to see you here!

rms2
01-14-2017, 04:17 AM
Picked up another couple of Price matches, one spelled Pryce, in the last two days.

rms2
01-14-2017, 07:23 PM
One of the new Price/Pryce matches, kit 591565, has joined the project. He has 67 markers thus far. I have urged him to upgrade to 111 markers and order the test for BY166. I don't push for Big Y until I know how enthusiastic a member is.

rms2
02-25-2017, 04:22 PM
I updated my little graphic of the distributions of the surnames in our project. It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but one can see that Wales predominates, followed by SW England.

14216

rms2
03-09-2017, 12:51 PM
It amazes me that periodically one or two people will join the project who really have no reason to join it. Their haplotypes are nowhere near our cluster, and none of us are even remote matches for them. I always remove such new members with a polite explanation, but I am always baffled that apparently they join without reading the project's Background page first.

One such man joined recently, and I noticed that he is a member of a multitude of different projects. Guess he is just a joiner. Naturally, I had to unjoin him from our project.

Weird.

Dubhthach
03-09-2017, 01:42 PM
It amazes me that periodically one or two people will join the project who really have no reason to join it. Their haplotypes are nowhere near our cluster, and none of us are even remote matches for them. I always remove such new members with a polite explanation, but I am always baffled that apparently they join without reading the project's Background page first.

One such man joined recently, and I noticed that he is a member of a multitude of different projects. Guess he is just a joiner. Naturally, I had to unjoin him from our project.

Weird.

Some cases I think people join based on surname search, so when they search for their surname they see bunch of projects that have men with same surname (or version of it) as members. In general I don't think they even both reading the blurb on the project page etc.

rms2
03-09-2017, 03:28 PM
Some cases I think people join based on surname search, so when they search for their surname they see bunch of projects that have men with same surname (or version of it) as members. In general I don't think they even both reading the blurb on the project page etc.

None of these have even fallen into that at least reasonable category. They haven't even shared a surname with any of us.

rms2
04-13-2017, 03:52 PM
Here's a little graphic I made showing what we know of the phylogenetic position of our cluster. I did not list all the SNPs for which we are derived. I chose one or two at each position to represent all of them. Those age estimates come from YFull's tree and can be refined as more Big Y results from our group are analyzed.

It appears the entire cluster is derived for BY160, since all four of our members with Big Y results have tested BY160+.

The block at the top of the chart shows our y haplogroup R lineage leading up to DF41/CTS2501.

15225

YFull went with BY160 rather than BY166 (same level), so that is what I put on this graphic.

rms2
04-14-2017, 06:53 PM
Okay, I spruced up my R1b-41-1123 phylogenetic tree graphic to sponge a little off the fame of the Stewarts, but I am entitled, since one of my second great grandmothers was a Stewart.

15285

rms2
04-16-2017, 07:59 PM
Here's a different version of the cluster 41-1123 pedigree, from our old, snow-white-bearded ancestor R-M207 to the youngster, R1b-BY160. This is what comes of playing around with Word.

15298 15299

rms2
04-22-2017, 10:52 PM
I wish I could get all the members of my haplotype cluster to do the Big Y test, but I realize it's expensive. Wish FTDNA would drop the price to about half what it is now.

Here's another goofy y-dna graphic I made. Before somebody gets all serious and critiques it, remember that it is intended to be humorous and also symbolic. The photos are not meant to represent actual human individuals nor do I think that the first R1-M173 man actually literally had two sons who were R1a and R1b.

15396

rms2
04-24-2017, 09:54 PM
Another member of our cluster has ordered the Big Y. He is a 103/111 STR match for me. It looks likely a close match of his with the same surname, Webb, 110/111 (102/111 for me), will also order it. Good deal for them, I believe.

I am pretty sure both will submit their bam files to both Alex Williamson and to YFull.

We are slowing starting to build some good data on our little group.

rms2
04-25-2017, 10:33 PM
Another member of our cluster has ordered the Big Y. He is a 103/111 STR match for me. It looks likely a close match of his with the same surname, Webb, 110/111 (102/111 for me), will also order it. Good deal for them, I believe.

I am pretty sure both will submit their bam files to both Alex Williamson and to YFull.

We are slowing starting to build some good data on our little group.

Another member of the project, this one with my surname and a 107/111 match for me, kit 326490, ordered the Big Y today.

Kopfjäger
04-25-2017, 11:09 PM
I wish I could get all the members of my haplotype cluster to do the Big Y test, but I realize it's expensive. Wish FTDNA would drop the price to about half what it is now.

Here's another goofy y-dna graphic I made. Before somebody gets all serious and critiques it, remember that it is intended to be humorous and also symbolic. The photos are not meant to represent actual human individuals nor do I think that the first R1-M173 man actually literally had two sons who were R1a and R1b.

15396

Bwa hahaha! The R1b fellow looks like Conor McGregor! In the words of my father, "That ain't nice."

rms2
04-26-2017, 11:00 PM
Bwa hahaha! The R1b fellow looks like Conor McGregor! In the words of my father, "That ain't nice."

Never mind that I chose Yul Brynner playing Taras Bulba to represent R1a, even though Brynner's father line was Swiss and he may have been R1b-U152.

Kopfjäger
04-27-2017, 05:05 PM
Never mind that I chose Yul Brynner playing Taras Bulba to represent R1a, even though Brynner's father line was Swiss and he may have been R1b-U152.

:D that's classic

rms2
04-27-2017, 10:23 PM
:D that's classic

Yep. He was born in Vladivostok. His mom and grandmother were Russian, but his y-dna line was Swiss. Taras Bulba always has been one of my favorite films.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUdJfYJipJw

Kopfjäger
04-28-2017, 01:35 AM
Yep. He was born in Vladivostok. His mom and grandmother were Russian, but his y-dna line was Swiss. Taras Bulba always has been one of my favorite films.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUdJfYJipJw

Reminds me of a Cossack John Wayne!!! lol

Dubhthach
04-28-2017, 10:05 AM
Bwa hahaha! The R1b fellow looks like Conor McGregor! In the words of my father, "That ain't nice."

It wouldn't surprise me if McGregor was L1335+ given the surname and all

rms2
05-05-2017, 11:48 PM
Here is the current Big Tree depiction of those members of our group who have had the Big Y test. Two more on the way soon.

15600

The Big Tree DF41 (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=7)

rms2
05-16-2017, 10:37 PM
Another member of our cluster has ordered the Big Y. He is a 103/111 STR match for me. It looks likely a close match of his with the same surname, Webb, 110/111 (102/111 for me), will also order it. Good deal for them, I believe.

I am pretty sure both will submit their bam files to both Alex Williamson and to YFull.

We are slowing starting to build some good data on our little group.

Kit 163684 got his Big Y results today, about a month earlier than predicted. I emailed him about sending his raw results on to Alex Williamson and to YFull.

Looks like he is BY160/BY166+ but ancestral for the Stevens SNPs (no big surprise there).

rms2
05-17-2017, 10:45 PM
Here is the terminal SNP situation for the Big Y tested of the BY166 bunch. I added the details to FTDNA's Haplotree. I'm not revealing any secrets here. All this is easily gleaned from project public web site pages.

16126

There's one more Big Y test waiting in the queue. The results could arrive any day.

rms2
05-18-2017, 10:07 PM
Other than Dubhthach, I think I am the only DF41 enthusiast who posts here at Anthrogenica, thus the prominence of BY166 posts, although occasionally Greystones takes an interest, because of his interest in Wales.

rms2
05-25-2017, 11:05 AM
We picked up another project member with the surname Phillips (our third), kit 663118. He is not a known relative of the other two. The mdka was born about 1780 in Clearfield County, Pennsylvania.

simdadams
05-31-2017, 05:08 PM
I am interested in DF41 I'm CTS2501 and MC21 , cheers Simon

rms2
05-31-2017, 05:13 PM
I am interested in DF41 I'm CTS2501 and MC21 , cheers Simon

Glad you're here. We could use some more DF41/CTS2501 guys here.

simdadams
05-31-2017, 05:13 PM
If of any interest also got my Living DNA results they take me to CTS2501 but obviously more autosomal biased

ADW_1981
05-31-2017, 06:02 PM
I wish I could get all the members of my haplotype cluster to do the Big Y test, but I realize it's expensive. Wish FTDNA would drop the price to about half what it is now.

Here's another goofy y-dna graphic I made. Before somebody gets all serious and critiques it, remember that it is intended to be humorous and also symbolic. The photos are not meant to represent actual human individuals nor do I think that the first R1-M173 man actually literally had two sons who were R1a and R1b.


If you look at the Roman era "Dying Gaul" statue it's quite contemporary with modern west European facial structure, of course, those of them who are toned up and all. I always envision Andrew Lincoln of the TV incarnation of The Walking Dead as being a stereotypical R1b kind of guy.

rms2
06-10-2017, 03:26 PM
Kit 163684 got his Big Y results today, about a month earlier than predicted. I emailed him about sending his raw results on to Alex Williamson and to YFull.

Looks like he is BY160/BY166+ but ancestral for the Stevens SNPs (no big surprise there).

Kit 163684 has the surname Webb. As I mentioned before, he is a 103/111 match for me.

He has been on Alex's Big Tree for a week or two now. What is interesting is that his entry his shaded in red:

16769

Here is what Alex says about the red shading:



A red background is used for men whose data has not yet been fully analyzed. His position on the tree is not yet final, and will in general be downstream of the current position. He may not be positive for all the SNPs/INDELs in the block he descends from.

Since none of Webb's really close STR matches (same surname, otherwise, I'm about as close as they get) has done the Big Y yet, I'm thinking it's that last sentence that applies in this case. So, it looks like Webb's result could possibly further split our little group.

He finally got his BAM file link from FTDNA and submitted it to YFull. It should be interesting to see how all this turns out.

rms2
06-29-2017, 02:12 PM
Here's a snippet from Alex Williamson's Big Tree showing the current status of the Big Y tested members of the BY166 group. We have eight Big Y tested guys thus far, including five from the Stephens/Stevens clan. The analysis is not yet quite complete for kits shaded in red. Theoretically, their positions could change.

We really need Jones, kit B41942, to do the Big Y, since a SAPP tree I recently ran shows him and Samuel, kit N104746, on their own separate branch below BY166, the way it shows Stevens, kit 522600, and I on our own separate branch. 522600 and I share the SNP FGC36982 below FGC36974. The SAPP tree also shows Stephens, kit B112267, on a separate branch below FGC36974 with Stephens, kit 208061. A Big Y test of 208061 might reveal a SNP he and B112267 share below FGC36974.

17287

rms2
07-26-2017, 03:08 PM
Here's the latest Big Tree snippet for the R1b-41-1123 cluster.

Here's what Alex Williamson says about the red bar on the left side of some of the boxes:



Those men with a grey background and a pink bar to their left have been finalized, but haven't gone through as much scrutinity as earlier kits have. In particular, no search has been made for recurrent SNPs or other unusual mutations. For the vast majority of kits, this has no effect at all, but I will review them as necessary in the future.

17761

rms2
07-31-2017, 08:34 PM
Here's our little cluster thus far on YFull's R1b Tree, version 5.05:

17841

Needless to say, I added the names and FTDNA kit numbers.

Two of our guys are awaiting YFull's analysis and should appear on the tree soon. We have one Big Y-tested member (Self, kit 53479) who has never submitted his BAM file to YFull. He's on Alex Williamson's Big Tree, however.

I think the tmrca dates for FGC36974 and FGC36982 are too large, but more data should fix that.

rms2
08-26-2017, 10:15 PM
FTDNA's Sizzlin' Summer Sale has been good to our little project. We got three Big Y orders within the first few days, and just a few minutes ago I heard that another member of our group will order it.

rms2
10-13-2017, 12:03 AM
Here's a snippet from Alex Williamson's Big Tree showing the latest situation for the R1b-41-1123 cluster.

19257

TigerMW
10-13-2017, 10:03 PM
Here's a snippet from Alex Williamson's Big Tree showing the latest situation for the R1b-41-1123 cluster.

19257
Have you tried the Big Y chromosome browser and the Terminal SNP Guide under matching? I just wonder if it is making sense.

rms2
10-13-2017, 10:14 PM
Have you tried the Big Y chromosome browser and the Terminal SNP Guide under matching? I just wonder if it is making sense.

Our results are currently back on hold due to the switch from HG19 to HG38. They have most of us back at BY166 pending resolution of the switch.

rms2
10-16-2017, 11:09 PM
Our results are currently back on hold due to the switch from HG19 to HG38. They have most of us back at BY166 pending resolution of the switch.

Just one of our guys has his new Hg38 stuff. He is one of the two PF5064 guys, but FTDNA does not show that as his terminal SNP, even though they show him derived for it. They show his terminal SNP as FGC36974, which is one step upstream of PF5064.

The rest of us are still in Hg38 limbo.

rms2
11-04-2017, 02:19 PM
One of our project members whose surname is not Stephens or Stevens, recently upgraded to 67 markers because he suspects he had a Stephens/Stevens y-dna ancestor who experienced a surname change due to an informal adoption. His results came in a couple of days ago. He is a 65/67 match for many of us and a 64/67 match for the rest.

Hmmm . . . Not a smoking gun, but still a close match. I advised him to go to 111 markers or, for far less money, to test the Stephens/Stevens SNP FGC36974.

I also mentioned the Big Y, but at $575, I don't think he is prepared to do that yet.

rms2
11-04-2017, 02:33 PM
Funny thing: I just got an email from the member I mentioned in the last post. He tells me he is getting Family Finder matches in the predicted 4th cousin and beyond range with Stevens/Stephens people from Maryland, Ohio and Pennsylvania, which, of course, along with the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia, comprise the old Stevens stomping grounds.

He says he will order FGC36974.

rms2
11-20-2017, 12:31 PM
A project member, kit 712788, has ordered the Big Y at the holiday sale price, which includes an upgrade to 111 STR markers. Since he currently only has 37 markers, that is a really excellent deal.

rms2
12-02-2017, 09:00 PM
Just about everyone in the R1b-41-1123 Project recently got a couple of new STR matches, one with the already familiar surname Jones, and another with the surname Greenland. Jones only has 12 markers, and Greenland only has 37, so they could both be red herrings, but I emailed them and recommended they order the Big Y at the holiday sale price, with its upgrade to 111 markers at no extra charge, or, at the very least, take the low-cost way out and order BY166 for $39.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if either of them responds and orders BY166. I'll be positively floored if either of them orders the Big Y.

:faint:

rms2
12-03-2017, 01:14 AM
Speaking of Joneses, our group has three of them who are STR matches (and they don't know each other), but thus far only one has been interested enough to upgrade to 111 markers and do a little SNP testing. He turned out to be a bonafide member of the the group and R1b-BY166. His mdka came from Ceredigion, Wales.

I'm pretty sure the other Joneses belong, too, but they just have not been interested enough to test any further. Shame.

rms2
12-06-2017, 12:18 PM
Just about everyone in the R1b-41-1123 Project recently got a couple of new STR matches, one with the already familiar surname Jones, and another with the surname Greenland. Jones only has 12 markers, and Greenland only has 37, so they could both be red herrings, but I emailed them and recommended they order the Big Y at the holiday sale price, with its upgrade to 111 markers at no extra charge, or, at the very least, take the low-cost way out and order BY166 for $39.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if either of them responds and orders BY166. I'll be positively floored if either of them orders the Big Y.

:faint:

Pleasant surprise: Greenland joined and ordered BY166 and an upgrade to 111 markers. Turns out his mdka is James Phillips, b. 1780 in Bradford Township, PA, like one of the other three Phillipses we have in the project already.

I have not yet heard from Jones.t

rms2
12-16-2017, 08:59 PM
Still waiting for the results from two Big Y tests that were ordered way back at the end of July. Phew! That is the longest I have ever seen Big Y test results take with which I have had any kind of close association. Aggravating.

Originally, I thought we'd be seeing them by the end of September, maybe early October. Foolish me.

rms2
12-17-2017, 07:13 PM
One of our guys just got his 111-marker upgrade ahead of the Big Y results with which it's connected. The surname is Randall, but he matches a couple of Webbs 110/111 and 109/111.

His Big Y results should be interesting (if they come in before the Apocalypse).

rms2
03-30-2018, 02:41 PM
Here is my latest attempt at a phylogenetic tree graphic for the R1b-41-1123 haplotype cluster. All the info is available at the project's public web site, so I'm not revealing any secrets here.

22397

rms2
08-03-2018, 11:02 PM
Here's the one for my own subdivision of the neighborhood. Again, no secrets are revealed.

I like this, and Lord knows, I worked hard putting it together.

24979

rms2
09-09-2018, 04:43 PM
One of our guys just got his 111-marker upgrade ahead of the Big Y results with which it's connected. The surname is Randall, but he matches a couple of Webbs 110/111 and 109/111.

His Big Y results should be interesting (if they come in before the Apocalypse).

The Big Y-500 results mentioned above led to the discovery of the SNP BY38518 downstream of BY166, which the Webbs and Randall are on.

Cool when that happens.

rms2
10-14-2018, 01:14 PM
The latest run of the SAPP Tool for all of our project members with at least 111 STR markers (N=15) shows a TMRCA that places our MRCA at about 1450 AD. That sounds about right: before surnames became fixed in Wales and the Welsh borders area.

For my surname subset of that group, SAPP gives us a common ancestor who lived around 1650 AD. That also makes a lot of sense. He must have been the immigrant.

rms2
12-15-2018, 08:38 PM
Just saw an email that was sent to me yesterday from a man with the surname Lloyd, who is a descendant of John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from Radnorshire, Wales. He tested with 23andMe and was given an R-Z18021 result. The big news is that Z18021 is just another name for BY166.

So now we can add another solidly Welsh surname to our growing list, and one from the apparent heartland of our little cluster.

I asked Mr. Lloyd to order at least a 37-marker y-dna test from FTDNA so he can join our project, but I also put in a plug for the Big Y-500, just in case he's one of those rare guys with extra cash to burn and the motivation to burn some of it on y-chromosome testing.

It's a good thing I put Z18021 on our list of project "surnames"; otherwise, this man would never have found us.

27681

rms2
12-25-2018, 12:44 PM
Merry Christmas to everyone, and a Happy Blessed 2019!

Here's the latest version of the R1b-BY166 surnames distribution map, with plenty of room for new additions as they come.

It isn't likely that the places outside Wales and western England are accurate for any of our members. I could explain, but privacy concerns constrain me.

27933

JoeyP37
12-25-2018, 01:25 PM
Merry Christmas R1b, from your cousin R1a! Also, as I am 57% British and Irish per 23andMe (more or less the same as family records) I likely have oodles of R1b ancestors.

rms2
12-30-2018, 11:30 PM
Just saw an email that was sent to me yesterday from a man with the surname Lloyd, who is a descendant of John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from Radnorshire, Wales. He tested with 23andMe and was given an R-Z18021 result. The big news is that Z18021 is just another name for BY166.

So now we can add another solidly Welsh surname to our growing list, and one from the apparent heartland of our little cluster.

I asked Mr. Lloyd to order at least a 37-marker y-dna test from FTDNA so he can join our project, but I also put in a plug for the Big Y-500, just in case he's one of those rare guys with extra cash to burn and the motivation to burn some of it on y-chromosome testing.

It's a good thing I put Z18021 on our list of project "surnames"; otherwise, this man would never have found us.

27681

I was hoping to see some more such 23andMe results, but thus far I have not heard of any.

It's great that 23andMe tests as far as Z18021, but I wish more such people were testing with FTDNA so they could be directed to our project.

Most people don't want to hear that they have to spend more money on dna testing to get into our project.

Webb
01-02-2019, 04:41 PM
Merry Christmas to everyone, and a Happy Blessed 2019!

Here's the latest version of the R1b-BY166 surnames distribution map, with plenty of room for new additions as they come.

It isn't likely that the places outside Wales and western England are accurate for any of our members. I could explain, but privacy concerns constrain me.

27933

I see you have a Webb on your heat map!!!

rms2
01-02-2019, 11:18 PM
I see you have a Webb on your heat map!!!

We've had Webbs in our haplotype cluster since it was first discovered.

rms2
02-07-2019, 01:15 AM
Yesterday we had another Price (a Welsh surname, for those who didn't know that) join the project, kit 28470.

There are actually several more Prices in our cluster, but thus far I have only been able to get two of them to join the project, and none of them has done the Big Y yet.

28790

rms2
02-23-2019, 11:37 PM
Right now we're waiting on a Big Y-700, an upgrade from 67 to 111 markers, and an a la carte SNP test for FGC36981.

Waiting is one of the worst things ever invented, yet it is an integral part of this very frustrating hobby.

rms2
03-27-2019, 12:11 AM
In our little project we have one set of Big Y-700 results already, and now three more of us have ordered the upgrade to the Big Y-700, I and two other guys.

I'm not sure who else I can talk into an upgrade. It was hard enough to get them to do the original Big Y in the first place.

rms2
04-23-2019, 01:16 AM
I realize that no one outside out little group gives a rat's ass about it, but having been to Powys, Wales, myself, I cannot think about it without picturing that beautiful green countryside, its mountains, its sheep and border collies and friendly people, its warm pubs and delicious food and beer.

I feel blessed to be a part of it. I'm sure my ancestors had good reasons for leaving, but part of me wishes they hadn't.

Celt_??
04-23-2019, 03:03 AM
It's a good thing I put Z18021 on our list of project "surnames"; otherwise, this man would never have found us.

27681

Did you put "Z18021" or did you mean you put "Lloyd"?

rms2
04-24-2019, 11:07 PM
Did you put "Z18021" or did you mean you put "Lloyd"?

I included SNP names in the list of surnames. That way the project turns up when people search for those SNPs.

That's how Lloyd found us, by searching for Z18021.

Celt_??
04-28-2019, 03:24 AM
I included SNP names in the list of surnames. That way the project turns up when people search for those SNPs.

That's how Lloyd found us, by searching for Z18021.

Very clever. I didn't know that was possible. Is that the Terminal SNP or a little broader SNP for you? Thank you!

rms2
04-28-2019, 01:56 PM
Very clever. I didn't know that was possible. Is that the Terminal SNP or a little broader SNP for you? Thank you!

BY166 is the SNP that characterizes our entire cluster, but a number of others downstream of it characterize branches of the cluster. FGC36974, for example, is just downstream of BY166 and identifies men in the cluster with the surname Stephens/Stevens. Cluster members with the surname Webb carry BY38518 just below BY166.

I think we would break out more branches under BY166 if we could get everyone Big Y tested.

Here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b_41_1123?iframe=yresults) is a link to the project, if you're curious.

Celt_??
04-29-2019, 12:12 AM
Just wondering which SNP I might use for my Milam / Mileham / Milum Surname Project: R>R1b>M269>U152>L2>Z367>L20>CTS9733>S10068>S1693>BY34097

Here is an image from The Big Tree: 30156

Any idea? Thanks a million!

Celt_??
04-29-2019, 12:13 AM
Just wondering which SNP I might use for my Milam / Mileham / Milum Surname Project: R>R1b>M269>U152>L2>Z367>L20>CTS9733>S10068>S1693>BY34097

Here is an image from The Big Tree: 30156

Milam is on the far right. Any idea? Thanks a million!

rms2
04-29-2019, 10:43 PM
Just wondering which SNP I might use for my Milam / Mileham / Milum Surname Project: R>R1b>M269>U152>L2>Z367>L20>CTS9733>S10068>S1693>BY34097

Here is an image from The Big Tree: 30156

Any idea? Thanks a million!

I would list all of them, beginning with CTS9733.

rms2
07-02-2019, 03:26 PM
Our group just picked up a new STR match whose closest approach to any of us is 63/67 (67 markers are all he has). I can't see his haplotype, but I'm guessing that 63/67 match means he belongs in our cluster, so I just got finished a few minutes ago emailing him and inviting him to join.

The surname is Williams, which is, of course, a very common surname in Wales.

31401

I'm hoping he'll join, be enthusiastic, and do at least some SNP testing.

rms2
07-04-2019, 01:11 PM
Our group just picked up a new STR match whose closest approach to any of us is 63/67 (67 markers are all he has). I can't see his haplotype, but I'm guessing that 63/67 match means he belongs in our cluster, so I just got finished a few minutes ago emailing him and inviting him to join.

The surname is Williams, which is, of course, a very common surname in Wales.

31401

I'm hoping he'll join, be enthusiastic, and do at least some SNP testing.

Haven't yet heard back from Mr. Williams.

Ah, well. C'est la vie, mes amis.

I wonder how many people I have emailed or otherwise messaged about this hobby over the years and what the success rate has been. I've had some real successes but also a whole lot of squib loads.

Kopfjäger
07-05-2019, 09:44 PM
Haven't yet heard back from Mr. Williams.

Ah, well. C'est la vie, mes amis.

I wonder how many people I have emailed or otherwise messaged about this hobby over the years and what the success rate has been. I've had some real successes but also a whole lot of squib loads.

Tell me about it. I see some of these folks test Family Finder and y-111, and you'll never hear a peep from 'em. Weird, considering they spent all that money on testing.

rms2
07-06-2019, 12:02 AM
I think that when I write them my emails go into their spam folders, and then there's a big flushing sound.

Kopfjäger
07-06-2019, 12:46 AM
I think that when I write them my emails go into their spam folders, and then there's a big flushing sound.

Ugh, that's frustrating. You've pretty much nailed where your Stevens family came from, so that's an accomplishment for sure.

rms2
09-22-2019, 12:42 AM
Three of us in this haplotype cluster now have Big Y-700 results. It's a close group though: all of us have the same surname. Two of us know we share the same 5th great grandfather at least (and maybe the same fourth great grandfather).

Oh, by "close group" I don't mean the whole haplotype cluster shares the same surname. I mean the three of us with Big Y-700 results all share the same surname (Stevens/Stephens).

rms2
09-25-2019, 06:32 PM
FTDNA has broken out BY168, BY170, and BY171 from the BY166 block on its Big Block Tree. Now they have BY168 (and BY170 and BY171) in a block between FGC5572 and BY166. It's kind of hard to figure out, but evidently they have one guy who is positive for those SNPs but not for BY166 and the SNPs downstream of it. He reports his country of origin as "unknown".

That's kind of big news. Wish I knew who this guy is.

I had all of the main block SNPs (one SNP representing each block) in our R pedigree memorized, from M207 down through my own terminal SNP, FGC36981. Now I have to insert one between FGC5572 and BY166 and remember it's there.

rms2
09-25-2019, 07:33 PM
FTDNA has broken out BY168, BY170, and BY171 from the BY166 block on its Big Block Tree. Now they have BY168 (and BY170 and BY171) in a block between FGC5572 and BY166. It's kind of hard to figure out, but evidently they have one guy who is positive for those SNPs but not for BY166 and the SNPs downstream of it. He reports his country of origin as "unknown".

That's kind of big news. Wish I knew who this guy is.

I had all of the main block SNPs (one SNP representing each block) in our R pedigree memorized, from M207 down through my own terminal SNP, FGC36981. Now I have to insert one between FGC5572 and BY166 and remember it's there.

That's not reflected in either YFull's tree or in Alex Williamson's Big Tree, so evidently whoever this new BY168xBY166 guy is, he is not a YFull customer or one who has submitted his results to Alex Williamson.

rms2
09-25-2019, 07:48 PM
Three of us in this haplotype cluster now have Big Y-700 results. It's a close group though: all of us have the same surname. Two of us know we share the same 5th great grandfather at least (and maybe the same fourth great grandfather).

Oh, by "close group" I don't mean the whole haplotype cluster shares the same surname. I mean the three of us with Big Y-700 results all share the same surname (Stevens/Stephens).

I made a slight mistake in that post (GASP!). There are four of us in our subclade/cluster with Big Y-700 results, all with the surname Stephens/Stevens (three with the v spelling, one with the ph spelling, and all close STR and SNP matches). Two of the v-spelling guys share the same 5th great grandfather (possibly a 4th great grandfather - long story). For the other v-spelling guy, that same ancestor is his 4th great grandfather.

There are ten others with Big Y-500 results.

I almost didn't post that correction, because I didn't want to distract from the bigger news (perhaps important only to me) of FTDNA's discovery that BY168, BY170, and BY171 form a block between FGC5572 and the BY166 block. Before this Big Block Tree update, BY168, BY170, and BY171 were nested within the BY166 block.

rms2
09-28-2019, 05:47 PM
Not that anyone but me and a few of my closest y-chromosome matches cares, but I updated the stair-step tree to my own terminal SNP to show the new BY168 info from FTDNA.

33455

Dubhthach
10-01-2019, 09:08 AM
That's not reflected in either YFull's tree or in Alex Williamson's Big Tree, so evidently whoever this new BY168xBY166 guy is, he is not a YFull customer or one who has submitted his results to Alex Williamson.

I had look at Block tree there, unfortunately I'm not seeing any contact name/details. I imagine it's quite an ancient connection as individual has 32 private SNP's in their results.

rms2
10-02-2019, 11:37 PM
I had look at Block tree there, unfortunately I'm not seeing any contact name/details. I imagine it's quite an ancient connection as individual has 32 private SNP's in their results.

I'd like to see his STR haplotype to see how close it is to the R1b-41-1123 haplotype.

rms2
10-19-2019, 12:06 PM
On 30 September I got my 23andMe test results. At 23andMe, BY166 is known as Z18021, which I mentioned before several posts back.

I posted a couple of different queries in 23andMe's forum asking to hear from other men who got a Z18021 result from 23andMe, but thus far I have not heard from any.

Three guys with my surname show up among my autosomal dna matches at 23andMe, and they are all R-Z18021, of course, but I really posted in the 23andMe forum to try to find some folks we don't yet know about.

rms2
11-03-2019, 11:02 PM
FTDNA has broken out BY168, BY170, and BY171 from the BY166 block on its Big Block Tree. Now they have BY168 (and BY170 and BY171) in a block between FGC5572 and BY166. It's kind of hard to figure out, but evidently they have one guy who is positive for those SNPs but not for BY166 and the SNPs downstream of it. He reports his country of origin as "unknown".

That's kind of big news. Wish I knew who this guy is.

I had all of the main block SNPs (one SNP representing each block) in our R pedigree memorized, from M207 down through my own terminal SNP, FGC36981. Now I have to insert one between FGC5572 and BY166 and remember it's there.

Interesting new development (at least, I just noticed it a few minutes ago). The Big Y Block Tree now has two guys with the terminal SNP FT115269 below the BY168/BY170/BY171 block. There is still one guy whose terminal SNP is represented by the BY168/BY170/BY171 block and nothing else thus far.

These guys must be distant enough from the rest of us in terms of STRs that they are not showing up as matches, otherwise we would see those terminal SNPs and have a shot at contacting them.