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View Full Version : New SNP: ZZ10 father of CTS3386,MC14,Z253,Z255



Tolan
10-07-2014, 03:01 AM
Read on the yahoo group: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/messages/25480

Alex Williamson has discovered a new SNP, ZZ10, bringing in the same group, four sub-groups under DF13: CTS3386,MC14,Z253 and Z255
Perhaps also some DF13 * but negative for: CTS3386,MC14,Z253,Z255, can be ZZ10+

However, ZZ10 is maybe not 100% reliable because, apparently, its position on the P5 palindrome is not ideal...

Dubhthach
10-07-2014, 09:28 AM
Be interesting to see what Thomas Krahn would have to say about this SNP and it's position, his feedback is usually quite good when it comes to situations like this.

George Chandler
10-07-2014, 03:51 PM
Read on the yahoo group: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/messages/25480

Alex Williamson has discovered a new SNP, ZZ10, bringing in the same group, four sub-groups under DF13: CTS3386,MC14,Z253 and Z255
Perhaps also some DF13 * but negative for: CTS3386,MC14,Z253,Z255, can be ZZ10+

However, ZZ10 is maybe not 100% reliable because, apparently, its position on the P5 palindrome is not ideal...

If it does turn out to be reliable enough that is really important. I have run into a couple which I suspected of being old in the S1051 group but they were culled by YSEQ. I left them in there just to see if they would turn up in others. The one kit matched another with a single old reliable SNP but didn't have the other 2 previous unreliable ones so that confirmed why YSEQ had culled them.

George

MJost
10-07-2014, 06:33 PM
This SNP needs further testing to show if it is consistent to see if this SNP marker as phylogenetically unreliable but if an it ties several DF13 subclades together and if this SNP is ancestral in all the other subclades under DF13 and it show its generally stable across those tied together subclades then it should be placed.

MJost

AncientCelt
12-08-2014, 06:52 PM
I personally think this a great news and a great new discovery and quite possibly very significant. While I am L1066+ (as all know under Z253), other than my direct surname matches the next closest (but very distant) matches are all L159.2 guys (Z255+) and it seemed apparent there was an ancient connection. This is falling in line nicely with the hypothesis that Z255 represent the Laigin and Z253 a group associated with the Fir Bolg. I'd like to see some of the citizen scientists at least put this possibility on the table and start to see if other pieces of information begin to support this hypothesis. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to give much validity to the Nemedian story yet (I understand it has a lot of obvious myth to it), however the piece about them going back to the continent from Ireland and then returning again as the Fir Bolg, passing through Iberia as well (we know we have the Z253 Iberian connection), could explain some of the spread of Z253. I know this is pretty weak at this point but it is starting to get a bit more interesting in my opinion.

swid
12-18-2014, 08:18 PM
As the sole (known) R-ZZ10*, I hope that an equivalent in a more stable portion of the Y is eventually found.

While it's tempting to try my luck with FullGenomes, I would have expected an SNP that unites two or more of CTS3386, MC14, Z253, and Z255 to have been found previously in their testing (unless only one of those clades has undergone Y Elite-levels of sequencing, which I doubt is the case at this point).

swid
06-09-2015, 09:06 PM
In case this is of interest to anyone that doesn't read the R-L21 Yahoo! group posts (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/messages/29007), another R-ZZ10* person (Allen - N3983) was found via Big Y testing a couple weeks ago.

He's in R Subgroup d of the Allan FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Allan/default.aspx?section=yresults).

swid
08-11-2015, 04:18 PM
ZZ10_1 and ZZ10_2 have been added to the Advanced SNP catalog at FTDNA, it's not (yet?) on their haplotree.

Tolan
08-12-2015, 01:16 PM
ZZ10_1 and ZZ10_2 have been added to the Advanced SNP catalog at FTDNA, it's not (yet?) on their haplotree.

What is the difference between ZZ10_1 and ZZ10_2

swid
08-12-2015, 03:33 PM
ZZ10 is palindromic, so it exists in two locations on the Y (positions 19,791,668 (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=ChrY:19791668..19791668) and 20,388,112 (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=ChrY:20388112..20388112)).

I don't know yet how FTDNA will test ZZ10 (or the other palindromic SNPs recently added); while ZZ7, ZZ8, ZZ9 are all now on the FTDNA haplotree, but they're listed as ZZ7_1, ZZ8_1, and ZZ9_1 only.

swid
08-25-2015, 05:29 PM
I don't know yet how FTDNA will test ZZ10 (or the other palindromic SNPs recently added); while ZZ7, ZZ8, ZZ9 are all now on the FTDNA haplotree, but they're listed as ZZ7_1, ZZ8_1, and ZZ9_1 only.

I've put a request in to FTDNA to see how ZZ10_1 and/or ZZ10_2 will be tested (particularly, if both would need to be ordered to determine one's ZZ10 status) and how that compares with how ZZ7, ZZ8, and ZZ9 are being tested.

swid
10-03-2015, 06:47 PM
In case it was missed elsewhere, both locations of ZZ10 are tested in the FTDNA R1b-L21 SNP Pack.

I've gone ahead and ordered it, as the Pack is cheaper than ordering both ZZ10_1 and ZZ10_2 plus the two remaining public SNPs below ZZ10 that I never tested o n my own account personally (CTS3386 and MC14).

If nothing else, hopefully it tests well enough on the Pack that it'll get added to their haplotree.

swid
11-04-2015, 07:20 PM
FTDNA added ZZ10_1 to their haplotree recently, so presumably, it's tested well enough in the SNP Pack or standalone testing list it.

They also have A228 (which is listed as downstream of Z251 on YBrowse and Alex' tree) shown as occurring beneath ZZ10, so it appears they misplaced A228 after the most recent tree update.

Tolan
11-05-2015, 04:27 AM
I ordered a test only for ZZ10_1.
FTDNA informs me that the results were delayed, and they are provided between November 18 and December 2

swid
11-05-2015, 08:06 PM
My L21 Pack results came in today, which confirmed that the pack can test for ZZ10.

TigerMW
11-06-2015, 12:19 AM
My L21 Pack results came in today, which confirmed that the pack can test for ZZ10.
Good. I've seen a number of ZZ10_1- and ZZ10_2- results, which is as it should be for the subclades (i.e. DF21, Z251, etc.) but haven't looked at a Z253 or Z255 or CTS3386 person yet.

swid
11-06-2015, 04:30 AM
Good. I've seen a number of ZZ10_1- and ZZ10_2- results, which is as it should be for the subclades (i.e. DF21, Z251, etc.) but haven't looked at a Z253 or Z255 or CTS3386 person yet.

As of this evening, there's 8 other ZZ10+ results listed besides mine in the L21 project; kit 81114 is ZZ10_1+, ZZ10_2+, A228+ (which doesn't make sense based on where other trees think A228 is located - below Z251). The remaining 7 are all Z253+.

DickAllen
11-18-2015, 06:05 PM
Hi, I'm kit # N3983 you refer to as another R-ZZ10* person found via Big Y testing. I am new at this but starting to get the go and flow of the analyses. It appears that ZZ10 is somewhat rare at this point in time. What dose the * stand for after ZZ10? Also does ZZ10 place me in a specific group such as Irish, Scottish, or one of the other groups I have seen listed?
Another member of R-subgroup d, FTDNA has also run the Big Y. He is also FD13. In the Big Y matches he and I have one variable. It appears if all the members of R-subgroup d ran the Big Y they would all be DF13. We all have one thing in common. We have a value of 13 at DYS426. I understand that 13 at DYS426 is very rare. Would it help in tracing our ancestral origins? Non of the other subgroups in the Allen Family Group project - FTDNA have the value 13 at DYS 426.
Thanks,
Dick Allen

swid
11-18-2015, 07:15 PM
The * in ZZ10* means that you're positive for the ZZ10 mutation, but are not positive for any known mutation below it that groups multiple men together (the Z253, Z255, CTS3386, and MC14 mutations, in this case). You can see a tree of everyone that's been found to have been ZZ10+ through Big Y testing here: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=12 While most of the ZZ10+ men have been from the British Isles, others have been found in Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, and the Scandinavian countries. At this time, being ZZ10* means that you don't have any particularly close matches with anyone else who's had Big Y testing; however, based on your 67-marker results, you may want to encourage one or more of these people outside of your surname to take a Big Y test:

Closest match:
150473 Tatum

Speculative more distant matches:
E4320 De Massary
14498 Garvey
N37432 Revi
202169 Campbell
14900 Mullen
133721 Mullins
163589 Johnson
201989 Mudie

Doug Smith
12-05-2015, 12:35 AM
Greetings group,

I'm Doug Smith, FTDNA kit #B15548, haplogroup R-L1066. My results from either or both the 111 marker and Big Y indicated both ZZ10_1 and 2 as "presumed positive". Further results indicate I'm Z253+, Z2534+, Z2186+, Z255-, L1065- and so on. Unfortunately for me, I'm another neophyte nitwit when it comes to interpreting these data, and welcome any input or advice you gentlemen might have to offer.

Thanks in advance!

Doug

swid
12-06-2015, 03:52 PM
Doug, this question should probably be over in the Z253 forum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?131-Z253), so I recommend that you repost it there for visibility.

I see that you're in the Family Tree DNA Z253 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z253?iframe=yresults); there, you're listed in the "Confirmed Z253+ and Z2534+ and Z2185+ and Z2186+ and L1066+ and CTS9881-" subgrouping.

Finally, I strongly recommend that you send your Big Y raw data to Alex Williamson so you can be added to his Big Tree (http://www.ytree.net/) (here's the L1066+ subsection (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=200)); instructions on how to do so are listed here (http://www.ytree.net/Instructions.html).

Doug Smith
12-07-2015, 05:09 AM
Swid, Thanks for the info and advice. I'll follow up per your suggestions.

Much appreciated!

Erniesmom
12-08-2015, 05:22 AM
First post in Anthrogenica, hope I am following the protocol. My father's DNA changed today from R-Z2542 to R-ZZ10_1 today when we received the results from the L21 test. Surname, Wall, test number b12750. We match closely with several Wall surname group members and one other member just received this designation too. So can anyone explain whether this is where we land for good or will there be another test under this? Any information you have will be really appreciated. Thank you.

swid
12-08-2015, 02:58 PM
Welcome! With the results that came in yesterday, there are now four surnames known to be ZZ10* - Allen, MacGregor, Wall, Whidden.

With your SNP pack results, this is as far as you can test on Family Tree DNA's public haplotree at this time; the only way to find any additional results below that would be to have one of the members of your Wall surname group take a Big Y test. While they're not cheap, if you get 2-3 people together to pay for a test, the price per person becomes much more reasonable.

Erniesmom
12-09-2015, 03:14 AM
That was to be my next question. Thank you. This is all very interesting. Do we have any guesses as to the origin of this new Haplogroup? We, unfortunately have lost two generations of Wall men after my Dad, but my Great nephew (Wall surnamed) wants to be tested. How shall I test him?

swid
12-09-2015, 04:07 AM
It's really anyone's guess as to the origin of ZZ10; given that it would have happened almost immediately after the origin of DF13, it would have been very close to wherever DF13 overall originated from. While most of the ZZ10+ (and children groups) have been from the British Isles, that's as likely to reflect the testing bias in genetic genealogy databases as anything.

If you do want to learn more about your surname's deep ancestry, it doesn't really matter which Wall in your surname cluster has a Big Y test, just that one of them does it. With any luck, those results would define a new public clade with either my own surname (Whidden) or the Allen group. From looking at the Wall project, I'd say any of the following kits would be good Big Y candidates:

422116 (the other Wall that's been posting in the FTDNA groups since both your results results came in).
9874
364313
N16219

If you (or any of those other kits) would like a $50 Big Y discount code, I have one that's good through the end of the week.

Erniesmom
12-12-2015, 12:46 AM
Thank you! I have just spent a fairly large amount on DNA Tests for family for Christmas. I will ask for a volunteer on our Clan Wall Facebook group, we have a nice small group of DNA related Walls.

swid
12-14-2015, 05:12 AM
Thank you! I have just spent a fairly large amount on DNA Tests for family for Christmas. I will ask for a volunteer on our Clan Wall Facebook group, we have a nice small group of DNA related Walls.

No problem!

After re-reading my previous post, I should probably clarify that the kit you manage (B12750) is also a fine candidate for a Big Y test as well; the other ones I mentioned were the ones that are all close enough to yours that testing any one of them would be functionally equivalent to testing your kit.

Erniesmom
12-15-2015, 04:40 AM
We are hoping to get some other members of the group interested in snp testing. No luck so far. ��

swid
12-29-2015, 08:45 PM
kit 81114 is ZZ10_1+, ZZ10_2+, A228+ (which doesn't make sense based on where other trees think A228 is located - below Z251)

While kit 81114 is still listed as being A228+ (I'd wager that a false positive is somewhat more likely than a recurrent mutation), FTDNA recently moved A228 to below Z251 on their haplotree and this kit now displays as R-ZZ10_1.

With that, we have a fifth ZZ10* surname.

swid
01-04-2016, 04:16 PM
Cross-posted from the Z39589 thread; thanks for creating the subgrouping for us!


Okay, I added a ZZ10+ category, a Z39589+ category, and reordered the whole shebang to reflect the phylogenetic order (somewhat). It's not alphabetical; there are just too many new SNPs coming down the pike to keep up with being that orderly.

swid
01-05-2016, 07:35 PM
Two more ZZ10* results showed up in the most recent set of SNP results in the R-L21 project:

N129953 - Jacob
163030 - Chadwick

Based on the slow but steady trickle of R-ZZ10* results coming in with each set of SNP Pack results, I'll likely put in a request to start an FTDNA "R-ZZ10 and Misc Subclades" project. To go slightly off-topic, I suspect that the numbers of truly DF13* guys will soon become quite small, with most of that group found to be either Z39589+ or ZZ10+.

swid
02-09-2016, 12:48 AM
Another ZZ10* result showed up sometime in the past week or two: 187958 - Wilson.

While there aren't that many results to draw conclusions from at this point, it is interesting to note that DYF 395S1a-b values of 15-17 are found in 50% (4/8) of the ZZ10* surnames. While none of the results appear to be particularly close to each other, I suspect that there are one or more true clades among just the ZZ10* men known up to this point.

swid
02-19-2016, 09:27 PM
As suspected, we've now found a fifth public clade beneath ZZ10. It's taken almost a decade, but I've finally left paragroup purgatory. :-)

The Big Y results for 422116 - Wall - came in today and he shares over a dozen high-reliability SNPs below ZZ10 with the two Whidden Big Y results.

dp
02-19-2016, 09:34 PM
swid,
Glad to hear that you are not stuck at DF13.
Thanks for reporting on the new DF13>>ZZ10 descendant branch. What do you think will be the lead SNP?
dp :-)

swid
02-19-2016, 09:57 PM
None of them currently have a name, at least as far as FTDNA or (from looking at the mutations on my dad's Big Tree page (http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=23)) Alex is aware of. I'll have to double-check the positions in YBrowse to see if any currently do; if it turns out that none are named, I'll put in a request for one or more to be named in the BY series.

swid
03-02-2016, 09:55 PM
FTDNA added the new branch to their haplotree as BY4045; these SNPs are not yet available to order.

8030

swid
04-06-2016, 05:29 PM
I had put in a request a couple months back to create an R-ZZ10 FTDNA project; although I had assumed the request had been forgotten about, I got an email this morning saying that the new project request had been approved. :)

To find and/or join it, look for "R-ZZ10 and Misc Subclades" in the R section of the Y-DNA Haplogroup Projects section or just search for a surname of ZZ10. The URL that FTDNA created for it is a little mangled (so I'm not posting a direct link), so hopefully I can get it corrected to a shorter, non-mangled one.

swid
10-21-2016, 02:19 PM
Hi, I'm kit # N3983 you refer to as another R-ZZ10* person found via Big Y testing. I am new at this but starting to get the go and flow of the analyses. It appears that ZZ10 is somewhat rare at this point in time. What dose the * stand for after ZZ10? Also does ZZ10 place me in a specific group such as Irish, Scottish, or one of the other groups I have seen listed?
Another member of R-subgroup d, FTDNA has also run the Big Y. He is also DF13. In the Big Y matches he and I have one variable. It appears if all the members of R-subgroup d ran the Big Y they would all be DF13. We all have one thing in common. We have a value of 13 at DYS426. I understand that 13 at DYS426 is very rare. Would it help in tracing our ancestral origins? None of the other subgroups in the Allen Family Group project - FTDNA have the value 13 at DYS 426.

Your STR cluster - df13-z42613-A - now has its own set of SNPs underneath ZZ10 and is R-BY12512 on the FTDNA haplotree. If you can, please join the R-ZZ10 and Misc Subclades (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-zz1-0and-misc-subclades) project (and encourage the other members of "R subgroup D" in your surname project to join as well).

swid
11-14-2017, 07:37 PM
An update on the MC14 front:

I recently realized that one of the men in the R-ZZ10 project (kit N57429) does *not* group into either of the two known clades (A2070 and BY246/MacWho) below MC14. He has no Big Y matches and no STR matches above 25 markers, either.

As he's not on the Big Tree; I have sent him an email to see if he would submit his results there.