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ChrisR
10-08-2014, 11:23 PM
No J2a in pre-antiquity Europe?
Recently I posted about some thoughts I have about a revised J2a origin: Ancient Y-DNA discussion: no J2a in pre-antiquity Europe? (http://j2-m172.info/2014/10/ancient-y-dna-discussion-no-j2a-in-pre-antiquity-europe/) Note that this is mainly based on a few ancient European Y-DNA results, combined with the known modern phylogeny and distribution and as well some archaeological facts. I know other conclusions can be made and I'm interested on alternative interpretations of the known facts. Main conclusions (for more see the link):

G2a possibly with some other G and E subgroups are the oldest surviving Levantine Haplogroups.
J2a did not reach the Eastern Mediterranean area before the Bronze Age (3,300 BC), maybe even not before the Iron Age (1,200 BC)
J2a-L26 was somewhere in or near the Iranian plateau. His Y-ancestors probably came from the South (Gulf Oasis) or another refugium nearby.

J Man
10-09-2014, 12:20 AM
This is truly a good topic to discuss Chris. As we all know so far no J2a has been found in pre-antiquity Europe. Indeed none has even been found among the numerous Neolithic samples that have been tested from Europe so far. The Y-DNA haplogroup that by far dominates the ancient European Neolithic farmers is G2a. The fact that now J2 has been found among them (yet) is rather surprising. Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly. I still would not discount the possibility of some J2a being found among Neolithic farmer remains from the East Mediterranean region though. We need more ancient DNA.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2014, 04:33 PM
The new study on ancient Hungarians titled Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory by Gamba et al has a J2a1 specimen from the Bronze Age. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html The specimen is called BR2. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/fig_tab/ncomms6257_T1.html

Felix Chandrakumar processed the raw data and he found it to be positive for J-M67 (or J2a1b as per ISOGG tree). His post along with a link to the processed raw data is available at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-genome-br2-y-dna-and.html Maybe you guys can find another SNP that the specimen is positive for below M67. I looked at a couple that are on the YFull tree at http://www.yfull.com/tree/J2a1b/ and the specimen was negative for those. I didn't have time to look through the others. If a positive SNP can be found then it could help refine that part of the tree.

In the PCA the BR1 and BR2 specimens cluster with modern French and Orcadian but not far from modern Hungarians.

2812

Eurogenes has put BR1 on a PCA and it is also closest to French and British. He labeled it BA_Hungary in the PCA.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/ancient-genomes-from-great-hungarian.html

There is also an ADMIXTURE plot that is shown in the At a glance figures but that ADMIXTURE plot isn't identical to the one in the Supplementary PDF at http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html#supplementary-information so it is hard to tell which k=4 components they had or didn't have. Once Felix is done processing the DNA and has uploaded the results to Gedmatch I think we will have a better idea.

J Man
10-27-2014, 04:57 PM
^Yes thank you there are a number of people working on finding the terminal SNP for BR2 right now. It is interesting to note that the first J2a sample to be found in Europe comes from the Bronze Age.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2014, 08:30 PM
^Yes thank you there are a number of people working on finding the terminal SNP for BR2 right now.
Is there a discussion somewhere about what has been found?


It is interesting to note that the first J2a sample to be found in Europe comes from the Bronze Age.
I had noticed that and that you had already stated in this same thread that "Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly" even before the paper was published. So this study seems to support that it spread to Europe during the Bronze Age. It's also interesting that western Europeans must have a lot of Bronze Age autosomal DNA since they are so similar to BR1 and BR2.

J Man
10-27-2014, 08:48 PM
Is there a discussion somewhere about what has been found?


I had noticed that and that you had already stated in this same thread that "Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly" even before the paper was published. So this study seems to support that it spread to Europe during the Bronze Age. It's also interesting that western Europeans must have a lot of Bronze Age autosomal DNA since they are so similar to BR1 and BR2.

Well modern day Western Europeans certainly are quite similar overall genetically to both BR1 and BR2. It is interesting to see that even though BR2 is part of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a1 he is very West European like overall genetically. It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2014, 11:16 PM
It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.
I haven't kept up enough with the ANE, WHG, EEF and so on of ancient and modern populations to have an opinion either way. It would help if we had Anatolian and Near East specimens from the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Copper, Bronze, and Iron Age to be able to have definitive not inferred data.

J Man
10-27-2014, 11:56 PM
I haven't kept up enough with the ANE, WHG, EEF and so on of ancient and modern populations to have an opinion either way. It would help if we had Anatolian and Near East specimens from the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Copper, Bronze, and Iron Age to be able to have definitive not inferred data.

Yes we have to wait for ancient specimens from Anatolia and the Near East to know for sure.

parasar
10-29-2014, 12:06 AM
Felix Chandrakumar processed the raw data and he found it to be positive for J-M67 (or J2a1b as per ISOGG tree). His post along with a link to the processed raw data is available at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-genome-br2-y-dna-and.html Maybe you guys can find another SNP that the specimen is positive for below M67...


Appears to be a European clade of J2a.
Magoon et. al.
http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2014, 12:47 AM
Thanks. The Tuscan, Iberian, and Puerto Rican matches are interesting. I know some Mexicans that are M67.

There are new posts by Ted Kandell on Felix's site:

"Here is a detailed analysis of the Y-DNA SNPs and STRs for this sample BR2. BR2 is a new Y-DNA subclade under J2a-CTS900*, and shares 42 SNPs with a 1000 Genomes Puerto Rican, HG01402. Both the SNPs and the STRs indicate that BR2 is in a new CTS6804- subclade which includes Georgians, Armenians, a North Italian, and Hispanics.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/168jduUNpiWNc7Y2X8lDrMpM8svuPDdwJq5w-g2fQz-0/edit?usp=sharing "

It seems that Bronze Age Anatolians made their way to Southern Spain in search of copper for bronze, and then went northward into Central Europe seeking new sources of copper . Here's a photo of the BR2 grave site: http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/feeds/LiveScience/876/493/bronze-age-burial.jpg?ve=1&tl=1 "

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2014, 02:08 AM
The YFull entry for CTS900,CTS6619 is at http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS900/ and it has HG01402 and it also has the Spaniard HG02236 under CTS6804.

J Man
10-29-2014, 02:58 PM
Thanks. The Tuscan, Iberian, and Puerto Rican matches are interesting. I know some Mexicans that are M67.

There are new posts by Ted Kandell on Felix's site:

"Here is a detailed analysis of the Y-DNA SNPs and STRs for this sample BR2. BR2 is a new Y-DNA subclade under J2a-CTS900*, and shares 42 SNPs with a 1000 Genomes Puerto Rican, HG01402. Both the SNPs and the STRs indicate that BR2 is in a new CTS6804- subclade which includes Georgians, Armenians, a North Italian, and Hispanics.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/168jduUNpiWNc7Y2X8lDrMpM8svuPDdwJq5w-g2fQz-0/edit?usp=sharing "

It seems that Bronze Age Anatolians made their way to Southern Spain in search of copper for bronze, and then went northward into Central Europe seeking new sources of copper . Here's a photo of the BR2 grave site: http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/feeds/LiveScience/876/493/bronze-age-burial.jpg?ve=1&tl=1 "

Looks like J2a is connected to early metal workers for sure.

parasar
10-29-2014, 03:23 PM
Looks like J2a is connected to early metal workers for sure.

I would not be surprised if J2 was present in Europe (incd. Anatolia) well-well before the metal workers. We need ancient data from SE Europe - Greece, Balkans, Med. islands. Y-J could turn out as old as Y-I in Europe. I know I will be in minority (of perhaps one on this forum :) ) but your Y line may turn out to be slightly older than your mtDNA line in Europe.

J Man
10-29-2014, 04:26 PM
I would not be surprised if J2 was present in Europe (incd. Anatolia) well-well before the metal workers. We need ancient data from SE Europe - Greece, Balkans, Med. islands. Y-J could turn out as old as Y-I in Europe. I know I will be in minority (of perhaps one on this forum :) ) but your Y line may turn out to be slightly older than your mtDNA line in Europe.

You think that Y-DNA haplogroup J may have been present in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic?

parasar
10-29-2014, 05:04 PM
You think that Y-DNA haplogroup J may have been present in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic?

We still have to await evidence from ancient DNA both from the middle east and Europe, but I am just not convinced that there were two migrations out of Africa one of which was that of the so called basal Eurasians. I'm more inclined to believe that basal West Eurasians were the earliest offshoot, and occupants of West Eurasia, and that Y-G, IJ would fall under that group. J has close to a Upper Paleolithic age so yes, a presence in that period is possible.

ADW_1981
10-29-2014, 05:12 PM
Well modern day Western Europeans certainly are quite similar overall genetically to both BR1 and BR2. It is interesting to see that even though BR2 is part of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a1 he is very West European like overall genetically. It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.

Likewise the C1a2 from the earlier settlement is very much a Early European farmer from his autosomes, yet carries a much older, and exceedingly rare haplogroup by today's standards. I'm not certain if we can say much about the J2a1 sample as it's a bit of an outlier right now. Perhaps it had arrived with the early European farmers too but to this point had not been found. More remains are necessary!

vettor
10-29-2014, 06:16 PM
This toscani marker ( TSI ) in hungaria for this J2a person is starting to get into the the area of a very recent DnaTribes paper :\

Pity there is no central or eastern marker that I know of from YFull

parasar
10-29-2014, 06:36 PM
This toscani marker ( TSI ) in hungaria for this J2a person is starting to get into the the area of a very recent DnaTribes paper :\

Pity there is no central or eastern marker that I know of from YFull

Are you referring to this: http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-09-02.pdf
I did not get the second part of your comment re: YFull

ADW_1981
10-29-2014, 07:07 PM
wrong thread

vettor
10-30-2014, 04:55 AM
Are you referring to this: http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-09-02.pdf
I did not get the second part of your comment re: YFull

August edition IIRC

YFULL does not have an indicator between TSI and RUS as far as I know

Leeroy Jenkins
12-30-2014, 12:02 AM
Thanks. The Tuscan, Iberian, and Puerto Rican matches are interesting. I know some Mexicans that are M67.

M67 may be related to the arrival of the Etruscan culture in Italy.

http://gentis.ru/img/y/M67.gif

If that is the case, then it could have been spread throughout Western Europe by Romans later in time. That would be a cool legacy for your Mexican acquaintances if true.


There are new posts by Ted Kandell on Felix's site:

"Here is a detailed analysis of the Y-DNA SNPs and STRs for this sample BR2. BR2 is a new Y-DNA subclade under J2a-CTS900*, and shares 42 SNPs with a 1000 Genomes Puerto Rican, HG01402. Both the SNPs and the STRs indicate that BR2 is in a new CTS6804- subclade which includes Georgians, Armenians, a North Italian, and Hispanics.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/168jduUNpiWNc7Y2X8lDrMpM8svuPDdwJq5w-g2fQz-0/edit?usp=sharing "

It seems that Bronze Age Anatolians made their way to Southern Spain in search of copper for bronze, and then went northward into Central Europe seeking new sources of copper . Here's a photo of the BR2 grave site: http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/feeds/LiveScience/876/493/bronze-age-burial.jpg?ve=1&tl=1 "

J2a is likely related to the spread of metallurgy, or at least bronze metallurgy. Soft and hard copper alloys were likely already present in Europe before the arrival of bronze working and J2a lineages. BR2 looks very similar to the earlier BR1 on the plot, but more Near Eastern; which fits with the idea of his Y-DNA spreading from that region, as well.

I would not be surprised if we see some J2a lineages in the upcoming Yamnaya samples either. They could be part of the reason why Yamnaya can be modeled as 50% modern Armenian and 50% ancient Karelian hunter-gatherer. The arrival of these J2a lineages, possibly along with others from the Near East/Caucasus area, could be why we see "West Asian" ancestry in IE speaking populations, too.

This scenario could also explain this (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/y-chromosomelanguage-correlations.html):


As for the immigrant Indo-European and the presumably indigenous Dravidian languages in India, there is one major candidate genetic marker for immigration from the northwest. It is a Y-chromosome DNA type (J2a) rather than an mtDNA type, and its immigrant status is suggested by its presence at 10 to 20% frequency in high castes, both in Indo-European speakers and farther south among Dravidian speakers, and its near-absence in lower castes or “tribals” ( 8).

If J2a bronze workers moved into the Steppes, assuming Yamnaya is the PIE culture, it is likely they were highly revered for their skills in metallurgy, and that may have resulted in the lineages reaching high social status early. That relationship may have stayed intact long after Indo-European speakers settled in South Asia thanks to the caste system.

BMG
12-30-2014, 02:38 AM
I don't think J2a in south Asia came with indo europeans but with early farmers who probably introduced agriculture . but the J2a in south Asia is rather diverse belonging to different subclades especially within L24 , PF5197 and M68 clades . Then there are minor ones like my maternal grandmothers line designated J-L26 by geno2 . Some later derived clades might be of more recent origin but most of them are not.

parasar
12-30-2014, 03:09 AM
Magoon et al. had coverage of J2a and a good chunk of its phylogenetic spectrum is present in South Asia.
pg 12 http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf
http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

Locrian
01-02-2015, 02:25 AM
Well modern day Western Europeans certainly are quite similar overall genetically to both BR1 and BR2. It is interesting to see that even though BR2 is part of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a1 he is very West European like overall genetically. It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.

Hello — I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I'm sorry to say that it is a rather argumentative one. Apologies for that.

Even though BR2 is firmly dated to the Bronze Age this doesn't imply that J2a first entered Europe in this period. It implies, statistically speaking, that it was in Europe long before that. The reason, of course, is that since there are very few ancient remains that have been discovered and tested it would be astronomically unlikely that the first one found in a test was the first one to exist on the entire continent. And that it was present long before the Bronze Age is supported by the autosomal DNA being so similar to French and other West European autosomals. My guess would be the Neolithic.

I've come across this fallacy so often I think it deserves a name, but my best suggestion is admittedly rather lame: The First Penny Fallacy. I'd welcome suggestions for improvement.

At any rate, as one who is J2a-M92 I am happy that BR2 has been found — as so many have said before we need more, many more, ancient samples for testing. I think in ten years time we may finally understand how Europe was peopled. At the moment we seem to be accumulating just enough evidence to know that what we have thought up to now is very imperfect.

rms2
01-02-2015, 04:07 AM
What about the "We found it, so it must have been there forever" fallacy?

The only thing you can say about a late Bronze Age find is that J2a didn't get there any later than that.

ChrisR
02-02-2015, 10:07 AM
J-M67 (or J2a1b as per ISOGG tree)
Appears to be a European clade of J2a.
Magoon et. al.
Mind that 1000 Genomes has sampled only in some European and some Asian regions.
The "homeland" of J2a (Middle East, Caucasus) is not covered in the dataset and therefore we should not use Magoon et. al. 2013 (preprint) only for diversity observations.


Even though BR2 is firmly dated to the Bronze Age this doesn't imply that J2a first entered Europe in this period. It implies, statistically speaking, that it was in Europe long before that. The reason, of course, is that since there are very few ancient remains that have been discovered and tested it would be astronomically unlikely that the first one found in a test was the first one to exist on the entire continent. And that it was present long before the Bronze Age is supported by the autosomal DNA being so similar to French and other West European autosomals. My guess would be the Neolithic.
You may have seen that I have edited my blogpost about J2a in Europe (http://j2-m172.info/2014/10/ancient-y-dna-discussion-no-j2a-in-pre-antiquity-europe/).
Considerations against an early Neolithic J2a-M67-CTS900(xCTS6619) (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a1a1b1a1c) in Europe:
1) 1,200 BC is not firmly Bronze Age; it is near the end of Bronze Age and the begin of Iron Age.
2) CTS900 members are found in Caucasus, Armenia and Middle East. So the exact distance in SNPs and time from non-European samples of the BR2/HG01402 clade (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/168jduUNpiWNc7Y2X8lDrMpM8svuPDdwJq5w-g2fQz-0/edit?pli=1#gid=856950630) has yet to be established more confidently. Future aDNA may tell us if and how far J2a lineages went to (West) Europe with R1(b) lineages.
3) Autosomal DNA origin can diversify logarithmically from Y-DNA origin (one Y ancestor vs n generations ^2 -1). We can not derive from autosomal admixture the paternal Y-chr line position for more then 6-10 generations. To make the extreme example: a Caucasian went over Black Sea and Danube area to Hungary and he and his Y-descendents married for over 6 generations "Western Europe like" women. Statistically not likely but possible.
4) BR2 admixture can tell us he was not anymore similar to Ítzi (a typical 3,000 BC Neolithic Central European) but more like modern Central Europeans, so already had the massive Bronze age admixture changes in him. If this change came from West(/Central/Southwest)-Asia, then it might be an indication that BR2's ancestry did not come from the West but where also the ancestors of a "Eastener" group that invaded Central and Western Europe and left a massive DNA fingerprint.

vettor
02-02-2015, 05:12 PM
M67 may be related to the arrival of the Etruscan culture in Italy.

http://gentis.ru/img/y/M67.gif

If that is the case, then it could have been spread throughout Western Europe by Romans later in time. That would be a cool legacy for your Mexican acquaintances if true.



J2a is likely related to the spread of metallurgy, or at least bronze metallurgy. Soft and hard copper alloys were likely already present in Europe before the arrival of bronze working and J2a lineages. BR2 looks very similar to the earlier BR1 on the plot, but more Near Eastern; which fits with the idea of his Y-DNA spreading from that region, as well.

I would not be surprised if we see some J2a lineages in the upcoming Yamnaya samples either. They could be part of the reason why Yamnaya can be modeled as 50% modern Armenian and 50% ancient Karelian hunter-gatherer. The arrival of these J2a lineages, possibly along with others from the Near East/Caucasus area, could be why we see "West Asian" ancestry in IE speaking populations, too.

This scenario could also explain this (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/y-chromosomelanguage-correlations.html):



If J2a bronze workers moved into the Steppes, assuming Yamnaya is the PIE culture, it is likely they were highly revered for their skills in metallurgy, and that may have resulted in the lineages reaching high social status early. That relationship may have stayed intact long after Indo-European speakers settled in South Asia thanks to the caste system.

This is what Piazza stated after testing over 1200 tuscans based on strict questioning on heritage.

..Here we show the genetic relationships of modern Etrurians, who mostly settled in Tuscany, with other Italian, Near Eastern and Aegean peoples by comparing the Y-chromosome DNA variation in 1,264 unrelated healthy males from: Tuscany-Italy (n=263), North Italy (n=306), South Balkans (n=359), Lemnos island (n=60), Sicily and Sardinia (n=276). The Tuscany samples were collected in Volterra (n=116), Murlo (n=86) and Casentino Valley (n=61). We found traces of recent Near Eastern gene flow still present in Tuscany, especially in the archaeologically important village of Murlo. The samples from Tuscany show eastern haplogroups E3b1-M78, G2*- P15, J2a1b*-M67 and K2-M70 with frequencies very similar to those observed in Turkey and surrounding areas, but significantly different from those of neighbouring Italian regions. The microsatellite haplotypes associated to these haplogroups allow inference of ancestor lineages for Etruria and Near East whose time to the most recent common ancestors is relatively recent (about 3,500 years BP) and supports a possible non autochthonous post-Neolithic signal associated with the Etruscans.

parasar
02-02-2015, 06:39 PM
Mind that 1000 Genomes has sampled only in some European and some Asian regions.
The "homeland" of J2a (Middle East, Caucasus) is not covered in the dataset and therefore we should not use Magoon et. al. 2013 (preprint) only for diversity observations.
...
Good point about the geographically limited 1000 Genomes dataset used by Magoon et al.
I'm not that familiar with J-M410 phylogeny - is M410xPF4610,xL581 found in the Caucasus and/or Middle East?

ChrisR
02-02-2015, 08:05 PM
This is what Piazza stated after testing over 1200 tuscans based on strict questioning on heritage ...
That is only an abstract of ESHG 2007 (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2007/12/eshg-2007-abstracts.html). A paper with Y-data evidence was never published AFAIK (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Piazza+Etruscans). Without NGS Y-sequences in the quality of at least 1000 Genomes or PF it will be hard to assign the samples to the exact known terminal haplogroup and compare to the known diversity.


Good point about the geographically limited 1000 Genomes dataset used by Magoon et al.
I'm not that familiar with J-M410 phylogeny - is M410xPF4610,xL581 found in the Caucasus and/or Middle East?

J2a-M410(xPF4610,L581) has yet to be proved to exist because the L581 status is unknown in the only J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) sample published. J2a-PF5007 samples are L581+. This single J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) 1000 Genomes sample is HG01589 PJL-Punjabi so West/South Asia.

parasar
02-02-2015, 08:21 PM
J2a-M410(xPF4610,L581) has yet to be proved to exist because the L581 status is unknown in the only J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) sample published. J2a-PF5007 samples are L581+. This single J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) 1000 Genomes sample is HG01589 PJL-Punjabi so West/South Asia.

I thought that HG01589 is xL581 per YFull's analysis.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/

J Man
02-02-2015, 08:36 PM
Good point about the geographically limited 1000 Genomes dataset used by Magoon et al.
I'm not that familiar with J-M410 phylogeny - is M410xPF4610,xL581 found in the Caucasus and/or Middle East?

J2a exists in large frequencies in the Caucasus mainly in the forms of J2a* and J2a-M67.

ChrisR
02-02-2015, 11:26 PM
I thought that HG01589 is xL581 per YFull's analysis.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/L581 is a "no read" in HG01589, so we don't know if L581 is eq. PF5007 or L581 is eq. PF5008

vettor
02-03-2015, 05:41 AM
That is only an abstract of ESHG 2007 (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2007/12/eshg-2007-abstracts.html). A paper with Y-data evidence was never published AFAIK (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Piazza+Etruscans). Without NGS Y-sequences in the quality of at least 1000 Genomes or PF it will be hard to assign the samples to the exact known terminal haplogroup and compare to the known diversity.







your link does not match

this is where I got it
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1182431709

and

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2007/12/eshg-2007-abstracts.html

http://www.got-blogger.com/dienekes/Herodotus/?c=-/&p=11

and C17 in link below
https://www.eshg.org/fileadmin/www.eshg.org/abstracts/ESHG2007Abstracts.pdf

if it is the same link, then they must have shorten it

Generalissimo
02-03-2015, 06:23 AM
Even though BR2 is firmly dated to the Bronze Age this doesn't imply that J2a first entered Europe in this period. It implies, statistically speaking, that it was in Europe long before that. The reason, of course, is that since there are very few ancient remains that have been discovered and tested it would be astronomically unlikely that the first one found in a test was the first one to exist on the entire continent.

It is highly unlikely that BR2 was the very first European to belong to J2a, but BR2 is a whole genome, not just a Y-chromosome, and this whole genome is very different from the earlier genomes from the Hungarian Plain, and even differs in some key aspects from early Bronze Age BR1. So based on BR2 it does actually seem plausible that J2a first arrived in Europe during the middle or even late Bronze Age.

J Man
02-24-2015, 02:34 AM
We need ancient DNA from Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Near East badly. Some is being tested very soon or even right now and the results should be ready by summer I have heard. I hope that my source is right about this. In the mean time it is still fun to speculate. It still blows me away that the only J2a found among ancient remains so far comes from late bronze age Hungary. Where the hell were all the J2a guys during the Neolithic? Iran maybe?

R.Rocca
02-24-2015, 02:57 AM
It is highly unlikely that BR2 was the very first European to belong to J2a, but BR2 is a whole genome, not just a Y-chromosome, and this whole genome is very different from the earlier genomes from the Hungarian Plain, and even differs in some key aspects from early Bronze Age BR1. So based on BR2 it does actually seem plausible that J2a first arrived in Europe during the middle or even late Bronze Age.

I wouldn't be shocked if the upheavals in the Eastern Mediterranean ca 1200 BC were the result of J2 expansions. I guess we'll have to see what more ancient DNA samples tell us.

J Man
02-24-2015, 03:11 AM
I wouldn't be shocked if the upheavals in the Eastern Mediterranean ca 1200 BC were the result of J2 expansions. I guess we'll have to see what more ancient DNA samples tell us.

Do you mean that you think that there is a possibility that J2a may be responsible for the upheavels in the Eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC?

R.Rocca
02-24-2015, 03:13 AM
Do you mean that you think that there is a possibility that J2a may be responsible for the upheavels in the Eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC?

I think it is a possibility.

alchamb
03-21-2015, 05:42 PM
"Do you mean that you think that there is a possibility that J2a may be responsible for the upheavels in the Eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC? " This would certainly strengthen the possibility of J2A being among the sea peoples .

Anabasis
03-25-2015, 03:43 PM
"Do you mean that you think that there is a possibility that J2a may be responsible for the upheavels in the Eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC? " This would certainly strengthen the possibility of J2A being among the sea peoples .

In my opinion J2 cant be Sea speople as far as it has wide spread on all around the middle east and southern europe which requires long term settlement period. If J2a is related with metal working, it requires a technology and a civilization to develope such a technology. And the civilization requires cities and settlements. But what we know about sea people is they were invaders. As every invader they required to create some civilizations. But we dont know any ancient settlements related with sea people. In my opinion J2 is neolethic Trans caucasians which devoloped metal working in Eastern Anatolia platue and then spread all around the southern europe during early bronze age. The pelasgians might be J2. As the Indo Arians invesion began in Europe they might loose thier power against that horse people.

J Man
03-25-2015, 08:20 PM
In my opinion J2 cant be Sea speople as far as it has wide spread on all around the middle east and southern europe which requires long term settlement period. If J2a is related with metal working, it requires a technology and a civilization to develope such a technology. And the civilization requires cities and settlements. But what we know about sea people is they were invaders. As every invader they required to create some civilizations. But we dont know any ancient settlements related with sea people. In my opinion J2 is neolethic Trans caucasians which devoloped metal working in Eastern Anatolia platue and then spread all around the southern europe during early bronze age. The pelasgians might be J2. As the Indo Arians invesion began in Europe they might loose thier power against that horse people.

You very well could be right.

J Man
03-29-2015, 08:59 PM
Roy King recently posted this on FB which looks pretty interesting. Ancient DNA will at some point tell us if this is true or not.

''Meandering reflections on YFull 3.7. The new Yfull tree with TMRCA dates has finally arrived! Through discussion with Ted Kandell, it seems that G2a may have spread from the Levant northward relatively late. L1266, common in NW Caucasian speaking areas has a TMRCA of 4200 bp--possibly in the Uruk expansion era. Also Z1903--the main European branch of CTS342 expands only at 3900 bp which could be Minoan or even later Phoenician to North Africa and Europe. Perhaps the North Caucasian languages, rather than being correlated with G expansions are R1a or J2a derived. G languages could be suffixing/agglutinative Cardial
or LBK languages, perhaps like Iberian languages. L497 and of couese PF3146/L91 are old enough to be indices of LBK and Cardial Neolithic in Europe, as aDNA would support.''

alchamb
04-01-2015, 05:49 PM
In my opinion J2 cant be Sea speople as far as it has wide spread on all around the middle east and southern europe which requires long term settlement period. If J2a is related with metal working, it requires a technology and a civilization to develope such a technology. And the civilization requires cities and settlements. But what we know about sea people is they were invaders. As every invader they required to create some civilizations. But we dont know any ancient settlements related with sea people. In my opinion J2 is neolethic Trans caucasians which devoloped metal working in Eastern Anatolia platue and then spread all around the southern europe during early bronze age. The pelasgians might be J2. As the Indo Arians invesion began in Europe they might loose thier power against that horse people. So are you saying that the sea people were a mix bag of pirates ? I think that's a big possibility to be honest in which case we can agree there could have been J2a among them .. I certainly believe the pelasgians were mainly J2 .. And I agree with your opinion that j2 were the major losers in the "Aryan indo-euro invasion " Etruscans and Minoans probably surviving a bit later .. I suspect the Trojan war the fall of wilusia was a broken memory of another J2a civilisation falling .

alchamb
05-27-2015, 10:14 AM
4644 Roman maps compared with J2

alchamb
05-27-2015, 10:17 AM
4645 4646 a couple more

yussef961
06-20-2015, 11:46 PM
hello okay i'm pf5007 and a bit lost lol could you please advise when it was first mutated? thx and sorry it's my first post here

Agamemnon
09-09-2015, 04:21 PM
hello okay i'm pf5007 and a bit lost lol could you please advise when it was first mutated? thx and sorry it's my first post here

Admittedly, I am no expert as far as J2 goes, but it seems to me that PF5007 is one of J2a-M410's basal branches. As far as the actual dates go, I have no idea, even yfull doesn't indicate its TMRCA dates.

parasar
09-09-2015, 06:05 PM
1000 Genomes sample Punjabi from Lahore PJL HG01589 is J2a-PF5008(xPF5007).
L581 may be equivalent to either PF5008 or PF5007, but was not read in HG01589.

freitas howe
07-23-2016, 08:49 PM
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a1a1a1b1c1b