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View Full Version : DNA Results from Asturias, Spain Add to the Genographic Project Human Family Tree



Heber
10-12-2014, 02:28 AM
75% R1b, 33% mtDNA H

It is a pity they do do not release the detailed R1b which I understand is mainly DF27.

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/10/results-from-asturias-spain-add-to-the-genographic-project-human-family-tree/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-df27/

Interesting to compare with the similar project in Mayo, Ireland which had 88% R1b mainly M222 and High mtDNA H.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

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ADW_1981
10-12-2014, 04:05 AM
75% R1b, 33% mtDNA H

It is a pity they do do not release the detailed R1b which I understand is mainly DF27.

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/10/results-from-asturias-spain-add-to-the-genographic-project-human-family-tree/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-df27/

Interesting to compare with the similar project in Mayo, Ireland which had 88% R1b mainly M222 and High mtDNA H.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

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I can't believe NatGeo pins G as hunter-gatherer, and I2 as mid-east farmer....Inexcusable.

Heber
10-12-2014, 09:26 AM
I can't believe NatGeo pins G as hunter-gatherer, and I2 as mid-east farmer....Inexcusable.

If you compare the Mayo and Asturias results

Mayo
Late Mesolithic-Neolithic (5000 BC - 2500 BC) Haplogroups R1b
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Asturias
Bronze Age and Empires (2000 BC - 800 AD) Haplogroups R1b, I2b
British Isles Celts (600 BC - 200 AD) Haplogroups R1b
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I can understand Bronze Age and Iron Age R1b, but have difficulty with Mesolithic and Neolithic R1b

I would have seen G as Early Neolithic Anatolian or Mid East farmer and I2 as Mesolithic.

Lables like R1b belong to the 2005 era. In 2014 the year of NGS we should at least get R1b>M269>L11>P312>DF27 (L21) and possibly further downstream.
For example there are 118 SNPs below L21 on the 2014 ISOGG Tree and 313 identified branches in Mike Walsh's spreadsheet and 7638 newly identified SNPs and Indels (includes duplicate names) in Chris Morleys computer generated tree.

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Perhaps the official paper (if published) will include some detail.

Artmar
10-12-2014, 09:39 AM
Those associations are fully delusional.

rms2
10-12-2014, 11:54 AM
Clearly some of that is goofy, e.g., the Mayo thing about "Late Mesolithic-Neolithic" R1b, and the Asturias "hunter-gatherer" G.

I also wonder about the supposed British Isles input into Asturias. I suspect they're attributing any and all L21 there to the British Isles, which IMO is a big mistake.

Stuff like that is infuriating.

Pathetic.

It really is a shame when you couple cluelessness with the ability to produce such nice graphics. It's like putting a loaded firearm in the hands of a drunken chimp.

breckenheimer
10-12-2014, 12:21 PM
What might be a better association for these haplogroups (G, I2, etc.) I know the Tyrolean Iceman and some neo- or meso-lithic Swedes were found to be haplogroup G. But with what, if any, early historic or prehistoric populations could a person associate the main european haplogroups we find today?

ArmandoR1b
10-12-2014, 12:55 PM
If you compare the Mayo and Asturias results

Mayo
Late Mesolithic-Neolithic (5000 BC - 2500 BC) Haplogroups R1b
2733

Asturias
Bronze Age and Empires (2000 BC - 800 AD) Haplogroups R1b, I2b
British Isles Celts (600 BC - 200 AD) Haplogroups R1b
2734

I can understand Bronze Age and Iron Age R1b, but have difficulty with Mesolithic and Neolithic R1b

I think that the reason the County Mayo and the Asturias reports show a different time period for the source of R1b is because the County Mayo report was published about the same time Michael Hammer agreed with the online community that R1b was not Mesolithic and Spencer Wells hadn't yet agreed with that. Here we are a year later and it looks like Spencer Wells finally agrees because the two maps the the R1b info from the two maps contradict each other and the Asturias report is the newest. Now we just need Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza to agree and there will be very few holdouts left.

Mark D
10-12-2014, 01:08 PM
Does anyone know if Nat Geo adds these 100 test results and the others to a public database, so that we all can compare them to the FTDNA database? Spencer is now in Houston; you'd think he and Bennett would share these results. Imagine probably over 20 new DF27s to work with.

razyn
10-12-2014, 03:05 PM
I had posted this morning on Facebook, to go with the same discussion by Heber, but I think it may make more sense (and, one hopes, last longer) here. So I just deleted that, and will paste it in:

That Mayo map looks as if somebody was relying on Oppenheimer 2006 (or so) for the migration history of R1b. The Asturias (paternal) one doesn't mention Mesolithic R1b in Europe (a step in the right direction). Perhaps they'll discover DF27, figure out a way to test a mass market for it, and that will burst upon our wondering eyes in about 2017. But meanwhile, I suppose, we'll have been exploring the new ZZ series for 2-3 years -- and will wonder why they haven't seen any of that.

Webb
10-12-2014, 03:27 PM
Clearly some of that is goofy, e.g., the Mayo thing about "Late Mesolithic-Neolithic" R1b, and the Asturias "hunter-gatherer" G.

I also wonder about the supposed British Isles input into Asturias. I suspect they're attributing any and all L21 there to the British Isles, which IMO is a big mistake.

Stuff like that is infuriating.

Pathetic.

It really is a shame when you couple cluelessness with the ability to produce such nice graphics. It's like putting a loaded firearm in the hands of a drunken chimp.

I agree with your assessment that the pocket of R1b from the isles is probably L21, though I wish they would divulge snps. If they did not test snps then I do not know how they can predict migration movements from one direction to the other. So I am very confused by the British Isles to Asturias migration claim. As L21 was entering Britain it could have simultaneously have been entering Spain.

ArmandoR1b
10-12-2014, 04:03 PM
As L21 was entering Britain it could have simultaneously have been entering Spain.

I came to that same conclusion some months ago also.

Heber
10-12-2014, 04:12 PM
I agree with your assessment that the pocket of R1b from the isles is probably L21, though I wish they would divulge snps. If they did not test snps then I do not know how they can predict migration movements from one direction to the other. So I am very confused by the British Isles to Asturias migration claim. As L21 was entering Britain it could have simultaneously have been entering Spain.

From the DNA surname journal it would appear that M222 occurred in the highest frequency in Mayo with dozens of newly discovered SNPs. This would imply that they used an advanced chip, perhaps a Geno 3.0 prototype or NGS process. I understand similar results were obtained in Asturias with DF27.

"Dr Vilar just used the phrase, “dozens of SNPs beyond M222″. He would not confirm thst Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 originated there but did say that where the frequency and diversity of M222 is highest, that location is most likely to be the place where mutation originated. And County Mayo is where M-222 is the most frequent."

I assume the Bronze Age R1b migration to Asturias was linked to the extreme expansion of R1b-DF27 (Tyler Smith, Xue) identified as a Bell Beakers expansion from Iberia and reflux model (Patterson),
I assume the Iron Age migration could be associated with the historical migration from the Isles to Brittany and North West Spain and the Atlantic Metal Age Trade. (Cunliffe and Koch).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

"The initial moves from the Tagus estuary were maritime.[3] A southern move led to the Mediterranean where 'enclaves' were established in south-western Spain and southern France around the Golfe du Lion and into the Po valley in Italy probably via ancient western Alpine trade routes used to distribute Jadeite axes.[3] A northern move incorporated the southern coast of Armorica with further, less well defined, contacts extending to Ireland and possibly to central southern Britain.[3] The earliest copper production in Ireland, identified at Ross Island in the period 2400-2200 BC, was associated with early Beaker pottery.[3][18] Here the local sulpharsenide ores were smelted to produce the first copper axes used in Britain and Ireland.[3] The same technologies were used in the Tagus region and in the west and south of France.[3][19] The evidence is sufficient to support the suggestion that the initial spread of Maritime Bell Beakers along the Atlantic and into the Mediterranean, using sea routes that had long been in operation, was directly associated with the quest for copper and other rare raw materials."

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rossa
10-12-2014, 05:49 PM
Didn't a couple hobbyists hypothesise a link between M222 and the English group the Dumnonii (that group is also linked to Mayo)?
Another point to consider about Mayo is that there was some migration to there from Donegalbin post plantation times.

rms2
10-12-2014, 06:20 PM
I think that the reason the County Mayo and the Asturias reports show a different time period for the source of R1b is because the County Mayo report was published about the same time Michael Hammer agreed with the online community that R1b was not Mesolithic and Spencer Wells hadn't yet agreed with that. Here we are a year later and it looks like Spencer Wells finally agrees because the two maps the the R1b info from the two maps contradict each other and the Asturias report is the newest. Now we just need Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza to agree and there will be very few holdouts left.

That makes perfect sense and explains the apparent contradiction between the interpretations of the Mayo results and the Asturias results.

rms2
10-12-2014, 06:27 PM
What might be a better association for these haplogroups (G, I2, etc.) I know the Tyrolean Iceman and some neo- or meso-lithic Swedes were found to be haplogroup G. But with what, if any, early historic or prehistoric populations could a person associate the main european haplogroups we find today?

Well, thus far, among the ancient y-dna finds there is a strong association between G2a and Neolithic sites and between I2 and Mesolithic hunter-gatherer sites. Some I2 shows up at Neolithic sites, as well, but not as strongly as G2a. The simplest interpretation is that I2 at Neolithic sites represents "first nations" Europeans who adopted farming and G2a represents the descendants of the Near Eastern farmers themselves. No R1b older than c. 2600-2500 BC has been found, and what was found of that age was recovered from remains at a Beaker Folk site near Kromsdorf, Germany.

Ancient European Y-DNA to about 1000 BC (http://goo.gl/maps/Dh90)

Heber
10-13-2014, 01:45 AM
This is an interesting account, by Jennifer Zinck, of day 2 of the FTDNA Conference, including an overview of Mike hammers talk.

http://www.ancestorcentral.com/decennial-conference-on-genetic-genealogy-sunday/

"What does the new model of European ancestry based on autosomal DNA mean for the NRY and mtDNA? The Lazaridis study shows that all five mesolithic Y chromosomes belong to Haplogroup I. Three fell into I2a1b and none into the presently locally more common I1. Dr. Hammer reviewed the four sites that he shared in 2013. These were Neolithic sites in France, Spain, Germany, and also Otzi, the 5,000 year old Tyrolean ice man. At this time there was no R1b and a ton of G2a, which dominated. Statistical testing showed that these were statistically highly different populations and there is no doubt that this is completely different Y-chromsomally than today. We now have a lot of new information. There are 15 sites.
Dr. Hammer made a chart of halpogroup frequencies. In the mesolithic period, more than 80% were I. By Neolithic period, G was strongly in the majority. By the metal age, I was back in the form of I2.
The mitochondrial DNA has a large shift between mesolithic and neolithic but then not as much rapid change after that. aDNA evidence supports a recent spread of haplogroup R lineages in Europe.
The Bronze Age was the first use of metal specifically to create weapons. The sword, spear and shield were all invented in this period. In the Iron Age, the first true mass-production of metal tools and weapons began. This revolutionized both agriculture and warfare. From 1200 to 1000 BCE Celts most dominated iron-age warriors."

"We will all be able to map our present DNA onto a tree where we can compare with ancient samples and learn about our relatives a few thousand years ago as we incorporate ancient data into the way we do genealogy."

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rms2
10-13-2014, 12:22 PM
It is particularly gratifying to me to see Dr. Hammer's "Connecting the Dots" slide, especially that third paragraph. B)

Dubhthach
10-13-2014, 12:44 PM
Didn't a couple hobbyists hypothesise a link between M222 and the English group the Dumnonii (that group is also linked to Mayo)?
Another point to consider about Mayo is that there was some migration to there from Donegalbin post plantation times.

Also the fact that surnames linked to the Connachta (Uí Fiachrach and Uí Briúin) are generally M222+. For example it's looking like R1b-A259 (equivalent to A260) is specifically tied to the Uí Briúin of Connacht (their ancestral figure Brion is the supposed half brother of the bold Níall)

Dubhthach
10-13-2014, 12:46 PM
From the DNA surname journal it would appear that M222 occurred in the highest frequency in Mayo with dozens of newly discovered SNPs. This would imply that they used an advanced chip, perhaps a Geno 3.0 prototype or NGS process. I understand similar results were obtained in Asturias with DF27.

"Dr Vilar just used the phrase, “dozens of SNPs beyond M222″. He would not confirm thst Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 originated there but did say that where the frequency and diversity of M222 is highest, that location is most likely to be the place where mutation originated. And County Mayo is where M-222 is the most frequent."

I assume the Bronze Age R1b migration to Asturias was linked to the extreme expansion of R1b-DF27 (Tyler Smith, Xue) identified as a Bell Beakers expansion from Iberia and reflux model (Patterson),
I assume the Iron Age migration could be associated with the historical migration from the Isles to Brittany and North West Spain and the Atlantic Metal Age Trade. (Cunliffe and Koch).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

"The initial moves from the Tagus estuary were maritime.[3] A southern move led to the Mediterranean where 'enclaves' were established in south-western Spain and southern France around the Golfe du Lion and into the Po valley in Italy probably via ancient western Alpine trade routes used to distribute Jadeite axes.[3] A northern move incorporated the southern coast of Armorica with further, less well defined, contacts extending to Ireland and possibly to central southern Britain.[3] The earliest copper production in Ireland, identified at Ross Island in the period 2400-2200 BC, was associated with early Beaker pottery.[3][18] Here the local sulpharsenide ores were smelted to produce the first copper axes used in Britain and Ireland.[3] The same technologies were used in the Tagus region and in the west and south of France.[3][19] The evidence is sufficient to support the suggestion that the initial spread of Maritime Bell Beakers along the Atlantic and into the Mediterranean, using sea routes that had long been in operation, was directly associated with the quest for copper and other rare raw materials."

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With regards to the SNP's they identified, I don't know exactly which ones they are talking about, but of the list that were included on their revised Haplotree several were found to be unreliable or to occur in mulitiple haplogroups. I think it's telling on their recent "M222 deep clade beta" that they used a set of SNP's that more match what has been found through Chromo2/M222 testing community.

They offered this beta to 200 men who were M222+ for $99, it's beta for new test that they should launch soon enough (we haven't seen any results in let for beta)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ftdna-m222.png

rms2
10-14-2014, 11:44 PM
Does anyone know if Dr. Hammer's entire slide presentation is available online somewhere?

alan
10-15-2014, 12:44 AM
Seems we now do have a broad outline of y and mt DNA in prehistoric Europe. Amazing progress when you think back to just a few years ago. Even the tough nut of R is slowly being cracked. We know R1a and b appear have appeared in central Europe by c. 2600BC. We know R existed in the Siberian middle upper Palaeolithic 22000BC. However we still dont really know where R1a and b were in between although I think a good working hypothesis is a spread from Siberia into eastern Europe c. 9000-8000BC then a spread into east-central/SE Europe c. 4000BC.

rms2
10-15-2014, 12:04 PM
Seems we now do have a broad outline of y and mt DNA in prehistoric Europe. Amazing progress when you think back to just a few years ago. Even the tough nut of R is slowly being cracked. We know R1a and b appear have appeared in central Europe by c. 2600BC. We know R existed in the Siberian middle upper Palaeolithic 22000BC. However we still dont really know where R1a and b were in between although I think a good working hypothesis is a spread from Siberia into eastern Europe c. 9000-8000BC then a spread into east-central/SE Europe c. 4000BC.

Yes, and it has been progressively greater resolution in R1b SNP testing among modern populations and the growing body of ancient y-dna evidence, especially the latter, that have done it.

I still recall the bad old days when there was not even a handful of us questioning the "Paleolithic West European R1b" orthodoxy. It seemed like everyone had bought into it.

Isidro
10-15-2014, 01:36 PM
"I still recall the bad old days when there was not even a handful of us questioning the "Paleolithic West European R1b" orthodoxy. It seemed like everyone had bought into it." By rms2.

Well it does seem that the one having issues with the "Paleolithic West European R1b" is you, when someone mentions it you jump right into it, takes it out of context and makes it a personal crusade where you saved us all from ignorance.

I think that is going to take a lot of Hammers to have a theory that explains where and when R1b was in the Neolithic and two handfuls of ancient DNA across the European Continent does not qualify as part on any theory that transforms R1b as Iron Age riders from the Steppe.Carles Lalueza and other scientists keep warning everyone how complex and diverse the results of ancient DNA can be.

rms2
10-17-2014, 11:51 AM
"I still recall the bad old days when there was not even a handful of us questioning the "Paleolithic West European R1b" orthodoxy. It seemed like everyone had bought into it." By rms2.

Well it does seem that the one having issues with the "Paleolithic West European R1b" is you, when someone mentions it you jump right into it, takes it out of context and makes it a personal crusade where you saved us all from ignorance . . .

That was an unnecessarily snotty post, especially given that I have never said anything about saving anyone from ignorance nor took anything out of context.

The only "issues" I have with Paleolithic West European R1b is that it never made much sense to me, and it makes less and less sense the more we learn. Sorry if that bothers you. I realize there was a certain feeling of pride among some men of Iberian heritage associated with the mistaken belief that the dominant y haplogroup in most of Europe emerged from their ancestral homeland. Losing that is hard (I guess).

I recall your posts from the old dna-forums. I know you have favored the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge thing for some years now. I also recall how merely questioning it angers you and inspires a defensive posture on your part. But of course your ideas are always thoughtful and well considered. Mine merely involve "having issues".

But don't lose hope. A Paleolithic carcass from Iberia could yield some ancient R1b tomorrow and resurrect the whole tired scheme, despite the mounting number of ancient y-dna finds with nary an R1b among them.