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alan
10-27-2014, 10:15 PM
There was a show about him again the other day on TV in the UK and it was clear that fairly elaborate DNA analysis had been done allowing his father and mother to be IDed. However it didnt name the haplogroups. Is this some kind of state secret? I understand there are fear that nutters will make all sorts of claims but surely the information should be released.

Gray Fox
10-27-2014, 11:28 PM
There was talk of him being SRY2627 at one time, but I don't think that is likely. Probably just contamination from one of the researchers.

alan
10-28-2014, 12:58 AM
But why is this being kept under wraps?

sparkey
10-28-2014, 01:02 AM
Is this thread just a set up for a pun?

razyn
10-28-2014, 01:48 AM
MUMMY'S DNA KEPT UNDER WRAPS!! Suspicion falls on Zahi Hawass.

MikeWhalen
10-28-2014, 03:06 AM
lol razyn
:)
This mystery will be unwrapped eventually!

Mike

alan
10-28-2014, 06:16 PM
OMG I didnt even mean the pun - doh

Mehrdad
10-28-2014, 09:18 PM
There was talk of him being SRY2627 at one time, but I don't think that is likely. Probably just contamination from one of the researchers.

If he really is SRY2627, that would mean that the Pharaoh's paternal line was from Western Europe. Boy, this would cause a ruckus

TigerMW
10-28-2014, 09:40 PM
If he really is SRY2627, that would mean that the Pharaoh's paternal line was from Western Europe. Boy, I this would cause a ruckus

I too would be quite surprised if he was SRY2627, but I can easily see him being R1b of some fashion.

Tutankhamun was of the New Kingdom dynasty of Egypt. It is thought that the New Kingdom started with the Hyksos incursion from Canaan.

"The Hyksos practiced horse burials, and their chief deity, their native storm god, became associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god, Seth. Although most Hyksos names seem Semitic, the Hyksos also included Hurrians, who, while speaking an isolated language, were under the rule and influence of Indo-Europeans.

The Hyksos brought several technical improvements to Egypt, as well as cultural infusions such as new musical instruments and foreign loan words. The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops. In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot, the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques. Because of these cultural advances, Hyksos rule was decisive for Egypt’s later empire in the Middle East."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

R1b does not mean "European", though, not necessarily.

alan
10-28-2014, 11:56 PM
I too would be quite surprised if he was SRY2627, but I can easily see him being R1b of some fashion.

Tutankhamun was of the New Kingdom dynasty of Egypt. It is thought that the New Kingdom started with the Hyksos incursion from Canaan.

"The Hyksos practiced horse burials, and their chief deity, their native storm god, became associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god, Seth. Although most Hyksos names seem Semitic, the Hyksos also included Hurrians, who, while speaking an isolated language, were under the rule and influence of Indo-Europeans.

The Hyksos brought several technical improvements to Egypt, as well as cultural infusions such as new musical instruments and foreign loan words. The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops. In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot, the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques. Because of these cultural advances, Hyksos rule was decisive for Egypt’s later empire in the Middle East."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

R1b does not mean "European", though, not necessarily.

The name hyksos sounds superficially like some IE words for horse

alan
10-28-2014, 11:58 PM
If he was R1b its surely much more likely he was from one of the R1b clades found around Levant and Anatolia including V88 and L23xL51 clades.

rms2
10-29-2014, 12:04 AM
The word Hyksos is also ripe for foolery.

Naturally, Hyksos was the original term, but it has been shortened to hicks and come to represent their descendants living today in the mountains of West Virginia. ;)

2816

Heber
10-29-2014, 03:50 AM
If he was R1b its surely much more likely he was from one of the R1b clades found around Levant and Anatolia including V88 and L23xL51 clades.

I understand that the Sea People, after they were pacified were hired as mercenaries in the Royal courts.
Could they be R1b and could they be a source of his supposed R1b.

http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.html

Arch
12-22-2014, 11:11 AM
There was talk of him being SRY2627 at one time, but I don't think that is likely. Probably just contamination from one of the researchers.

Not likely to happen unless some researcher decided to drill out a finger bone, clip a fingernail, or yank out a tooth while performing the DNA extraction. I'm not even partially convinced that he is R1b or even SRY2627 for that matter. However, I'm all for upsetting the establishment and would be pretty giddy if he did turned out to be SRY2627. Think of the shock this would have across the fields of genetics, history, and archaeology - trust me, people would be astonished and some quite upset about it. This post obviously was for Halloween, a trick with no treat for SRY2627. This case of Tut's DNA halpogrouping is not really all wrapped up as it should be.

Arch

Arch
12-22-2014, 11:16 AM
I understand that the Sea People, after they were pacified were hired as mercenaries in the Royal courts.
Could they be R1b and could they be a source of his supposed R1b.

http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/17_sea_peoples.html

If this turned out to be true, I agree about a connection to Anatolia and Hittites seems a likely a candidate. What I find incredible is how the Hittites with their established kingdom so far north of Egypt connect so well with them. The Hittites major settlements were nearer to the Black Sea than the few on the Mediterranean.

Arch

Arch
12-22-2014, 11:30 AM
The name hyksos sounds superficially like some IE words for horse

I think it means something else such as foreigner or foreign kings. I thought of searching for what might be an Akkadian or Hurrian word for them but I don't think they would call themselves foreigners; but then again the Welsh call themselves foreigners or strangers unless the Anglo-Saxon interpretation of stranger or foreigner is wrong. Maybe it can be found in Hittite or Akkadian if the word Hyksos becomes a common and accepted term when labeling or identifying people whether derogatory or not. I see the Hyskos with Akkadian influences and so I think an element of the Hittites have as good a chance being the Hyskos as anybody else.

Reference:
http://historymatters.appstate.edu/sites/historymatters.appstate.edu/files/egyptchariots_000.pdf

Arch

jdean
12-22-2014, 02:50 PM
I think it means something else such as foreigner or foreign kings. I thought of searching for what might be an Akkadian or Hurrian word for them but I don't think they would call themselves foreigners; but then again the Welsh call themselves foreigners or strangers unless the Anglo-Saxon interpretation of stranger or foreigner is wrong. Maybe it can be found in Hittite or Akkadian if the word Hyksos becomes a common and accepted term when labeling or identifying people whether derogatory or not. I see the Hyskos with Akkadian influences and so I think an element of the Hittites have as good a chance being the Hyskos as anybody else.

Reference:
http://historymatters.appstate.edu/sites/historymatters.appstate.edu/files/egyptchariots_000.pdf

Arch


Welsh comes from Anglo Saxon, I think the Welsh refer to themselves in Welsh as Cymry which comes from comrade but my Welsh comprises of only a few phrases I'm afraid to say.

rms2
12-23-2014, 01:17 PM
I suspect Tut was R1b, which is why the Egyptians have sat on his results.

Jean M
12-23-2014, 02:01 PM
Sounds like the next thriller from Dan Brown. Who would the secret royal heir turn out to be?

rms2
12-23-2014, 02:23 PM
As I recall, it was Robert Tarin who spotted Tut's y-dna str haplotype in a video about his genetic testing several years ago, and it was an R1b haplotype. No one has been able to verify that that was indeed Tut's actual haplotype, but it seems likely, and afterwards the Egyptians fell silent on the topic.

It was discussed on Rootsweb at the time.

Jean M
12-23-2014, 02:29 PM
As I recall, it was Robert Tarin who spotted Tut's y-dna str haplotype in a video about his genetic testing several years ago, and it was an R1b haplotype. No one has been able to verify that that was indeed Tut's actual haplotype, but it seems likely, and afterwards the Egyptians fell silent on the topic.

It was discussed on Rootsweb at the time.

Yes I know. I was just trying to inject a light-hearted touch, in tune with the festive season.

Webb
12-23-2014, 03:15 PM
Welsh comes from Anglo Saxon, I think the Welsh refer to themselves in Welsh as Cymry which comes from comrade but my Welsh comprises of only a few phrases I'm afraid to say.

I believe that it stems from the root word walha, which means foreigner or stranger and was the term the Germans used for the Romanized Celts. Note Walloon, Vlachs, Welsh, Welsch. It is believed the word is closely associated with the name of the Volcae tribe, which if is the case, it is interesting that the Germans refer to themselves as volk.

Ignis90
12-23-2014, 03:27 PM
I suspect Tut was R1b, which is why the Egyptians have sat on his results.

"R1b" isn't rare in modern Egyptians. Besides, Ramses III's results were released and as everybody knows, E1b1a is not common among Egyptians.

rms2
12-23-2014, 04:34 PM
That depends on what one means by rare. Since R1b is commonly regarded as European or at least Eurasian, Tut's y haplogroup might not be considered the most auspicious of all possible outcomes.

George Chandler
12-23-2014, 05:12 PM
"R1b" isn't rare in modern Egyptians. Besides, Ramses III's results were released and as everybody knows, E1b1a is not common among Egyptians.

It's more common among Egyptians and North Africans than you might think. Are you aware of what SNP line below E1b1a?

George

rms2
12-23-2014, 05:30 PM
Anyone have some actual figures on the frequency of R1b in Egypt and in North Africa in general? I suspect it is relatively rare, say, 5% or less, but I could be wrong.

George Chandler
12-23-2014, 08:58 PM
Anyone have some actual figures on the frequency of R1b in Egypt and in North Africa in general? I suspect it is relatively rare, say, 5% or less, but I could be wrong.

I don't have actual figures regarding R1b and the information is probably what you already know that most is P312 or above and that it's a low percentage..some being very old, some being Greek or Roman.

The reason for the lock down of Egyptian information was (in my opinion) likely due to a DNA community leak of results which went beyond something gleaned from the television screen. Unfortunately that's the way it goes sometimes when people disclose specifics about something they were asked not to - even if those it was disclosed to don't make it public.

George

Humanist
12-23-2014, 09:11 PM
Anyone have some actual figures on the frequency of R1b in Egypt and in North Africa in general? I suspect it is relatively rare, say, 5% or less, but I could be wrong.

According to Wikipedia (with all of its faults):

4.1% - Egyptians - Luis et al. (2004)
0.0% - Egyptians from El-Hayez Oasis (Western Desert) - Kujanová et al. (2009)
28.0% - Egyptians from Siwa Oasis (Western Desert) - Dugoujon et al. (2009)
9.9% - Northern Egyptians - Arredi et al. (2004)
13.8% - Southern Egyptians - Arredi et al. (2004)

George Chandler
12-23-2014, 09:17 PM
According to Wikipedia (with all of its faults):

4.1% - Egyptians - Luis et al. (2004)
0.0% - Egyptians from El-Hayez Oasis (Western Desert) - Kujanová et al. (2009)
28.0% - Egyptians from Siwa Oasis (Western Desert) - Dugoujon et al. (2009)
9.9% - Northern Egyptians - Arredi et al. (2004)
13.8% - Southern Egyptians - Arredi et al. (2004)

They don't happen to mention how many samples were taken from each area do they?

George

Humanist
12-23-2014, 09:19 PM
They don't happen to mention how many samples were taken from each area do they?

George

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Jean M
12-23-2014, 09:50 PM
According to Wikipedia (with all of its faults):
28.0% - Egyptians from Siwa Oasis (Western Desert) - Dugoujon et al. (2009)


Siwa Oasis is where relatively high R1b-V88 was found by Fulvio Cruciani et al., Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) pp. 1–8. Figures:

Ouarzazate Berbers, Morocco (Afro-Asiatic language/Berber) 3.1 %
Mozabite Berbers, Algeria (AA/Berber) 3.0 %
Northern Egyptians, Egypt (AA/Semitic) 4.1 %
Egyptian Berbers from Siwa, Egypt (AA/Berber) 26.9 %
Egyptians from Baharia Egypt (AA/Semitic) 4.9 %
Southern Egyptians Egypt (AA/Semitic) 5.8 %

George Chandler
12-23-2014, 09:56 PM
147
35
93
44
29

It's interesting looking at the high percentage from the Siwa Oasis being that they aren't known for marrying outside their community. Also interesting that Alexander the Great's army stopped in for a visit. I wonder if that is what we see?

George

Jean M
12-23-2014, 10:24 PM
It's interesting looking at the high percentage from the Siwa Oasis being that they aren't known for marrying outside their community. Also interesting that Alexander the Great's army stopped in for a visit. I wonder if that is what we see?


I don't think that there is a lot of R1b-V88 in Greece and Macedonia. It is found more in the Near East, North Africa and among Chadic speakers. It is on a completely different branch of R1b from that common in Europe.

3270

George Chandler
12-23-2014, 10:48 PM
You're probably right that it is NA in origin, but if they didn't test too far down the tree it's difficult to say where the Siwa Oasis's high percentage came from. Some branches below V88 are found in Sardina and throughout the Levant. Given the age of V88 I would have to see more testing results to believe it either way. It's probably just the fact it's a closed society and the original V88 was always there. I just found it interesting that Alexander's army was there and there was such an abnormal amount of V88.

George

Jean M
12-24-2014, 06:56 PM
There was a show about him again the other day on TV in the UK and it was clear that fairly elaborate DNA analysis had been done allowing his father and mother to be IDed. However it didnt name the haplogroups. Is this some kind of state secret? ... surely the information should be released.

From http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2014-12/1419310207


In the January 2015 issue of Smithsonian, on page 6 in their Discussion section there was this:

"With regard to the extremely well-researched Tutankhamun story ["The Strange Afterlife of King Tut"], I would like to report that Zahi Hawass, together with Sahar Selim, is about to publish a book on his work on the royal mummies, including the CT scans and the detailed results of the DNA investigations. This material will surely change our understanding of these mummies, in terms of their mummification technology, health, and life histories. When I was interviewed for the story, I did not know the details of this publication, and I am delighted that the academic community, and others, will now have access to this important data. The publication of the CT scans will allow for independent analyses of ancient Egyptian royalty."
Salima Ikram
Professor of Egyptology
American University in Cairo
Cairo, Egypt"