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Chukchi
10-29-2014, 11:02 AM
Hi, I wonder if anyone could help point me in the right direction? I have taken a test with DNATribes. Whilst the results match a previous test, and also match my parent's tests, this one gives more detail than other tests and I am not sure how to interpret it.

My dad has a Scandinavian Y chromosome, which I assume explains the high percentage of NW European, and Slavic/Baltic. Otherwise, as far as I know I am of Welsh and English ancestry, though I do have a GG Grandfather who has never been indentified.
I'm wondering if some Jewish or Romani ancestry would make sense?
And does anyone know why I would get such high matches with the Swiss population - does Swizerland have a mix of Iberian and NW European markers?
Thank you for any help.

The first chart shows "Top 20 matches in a database of 964 native populations that have experienced minimal movement and admixture in modern history (approximately, the last 500 years)"
http://i58.tinypic.com/281adrp.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/s12kyb.jpg

The second chart: "Each of these world regions is a genetic cluster that is the product of long term patterns of migration and settlement over several millennia (predating the formation of modern nationalities)."
http://i57.tinypic.com/f2ubdj.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/2bts2t.jpg

AJL
10-29-2014, 02:10 PM
Is this DNA Tribes' STR test or SNP analysis? It looks like the STR test, which is frequently wrong, sometimes hilariously so. This comment (http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-bin/dnatribes.cgi) is very similar to your situation:

"I don't understand why Spain and Portugal are so dominant and I had no idea that I had so much Slavic DNA in my blood also! I was a little upset that Ireland or Scotland did not show up on the list."

Also see:

http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=34402

And from here (http://www.genebase.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=169):

"Although Autosomal STR markers are powerful markers for identity testing, they are a weak source of ancestral information."

Briefly, autosomal STR tests were developed for police and courts to use in legal proceedings to tell individuals within populations apart and establish close kinship: not to tell people about their ancestry.

Chukchi
10-29-2014, 07:02 PM
Thanks for these comment links, they are very interesting. I think the reason so many of us get Iberian results when we are expecting Welsh/Irish/Scottish is that ancestrally, Celts are Iberians. What then skews us to match Iberian populations more than we do British or Irish is that in general there is no expected admixture for the the UK and Ireland. When a certain amount of admixture is present, for example North African or Arab, our profile looks more like that of an Iberian with Moorish ancestry, than we do a 'straight' Briton.
DNATribes says that it shows matches with present day populations, which my above theory would explain. And it's 'Global Matches' claims to show deep/ancient population movements, in which case Celts could expect to match Iberian populations.
This is my best understanding of it so far.

AJL
10-29-2014, 08:27 PM
I think the reason so many of us get Iberian results when we are expecting Welsh/Irish/Scottish is that ancestrally, Celts are Iberians.

I suspect you're trying to justify the unjustifiable. It's generally thought the Celtic homeland is somewhere in Central Europe, not Iberia.

MikeWhalen
10-29-2014, 08:45 PM
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Iberia/Irish thing has been proven wayyy wrong via dna

Mike

Chukchi
10-29-2014, 11:13 PM
As I understand it, it is the other way round - the majority ancestry of Welsh, Irish and Scots (and all original Britons) is Iberian. If you look at up to date research for example by Sykes, it is very clear that the Celts of the British Isles (which is the way I am using the term Celt - those of us living in the Celtic fringes with a heritage of 'Celtic' languages) are not as you suggest: "The orthodox view of the origins of the Celts turns out to be an archaeological myth left over from the 19th century. Over the past 200 years, a myth has grown up of the Celts as a vast, culturally sophisticated but warlike people from central Europe, north of the Alps and the Danube, who invaded most of Europe, including the British Isles, during the iron age, around 300 BC... But there is absolutely no evidence, linguistic, archaeological or genetic, that identifies the Hallstatt or La Tène regions or cultures as Celtic homelands. The notion derives from a mistake made by the historian Herodotus 2,500 years ago when, in a passing remark about the “Keltoi,” he placed them at the source of the Danube, which he thought was near the Pyrenees. Everything else about his description located the Keltoi in the region of Iberia."

In recent years this has been borne out by the DNA evidence, which showed that "The first settlers came to the British Isles from the Basque country of northern Spain between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago. The ancestors of some 88% of the Irish, 81% of the Welsh, 79% of the Cornish, 70% of Scots and 68% of the English arrived here during that period. None of the later immigrations contributed anything more than 5% to the gene pool." (Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University). http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/mythsofbritishancestry

If you search around, you will see I am not "trying to justify the unjustifiable" so much as using logic to explain that as I am Welsh, and the Welsh are shown by DNA evidence to be descended from the Iberians, it is highly likely that my high Iberian score owes a lot to my Welsh ancestry. Ditto anyone who has Irish/Welsh/Scots ancestry and finds high matches with Spain and Portugal.

Erik
10-29-2014, 11:42 PM
DNA tribes is a joke.

AJL
10-29-2014, 11:46 PM
up to date research for example by Sykes

Not up-to-date. Old (in DNA terms, that is: more than a decade ago) and discredited by yDNA, as Mike was saying.

Chukchi
10-29-2014, 11:48 PM
Could you show me some evidence for this?

David Mc
10-30-2014, 03:26 AM
Hi Chukchi,

The evidence is all over the forum. Short-short-short form is this: (1) R1b, which Sykes and the majority of experts once thought of as having been in Europe since the last ice age evidently wasn't. The earliest R1b in Europe came from Copper Age/Early Bronze Age remains in Germany. (2) The R1b in Spain is largely from a different branch than that found in the British Isles-- it's a brother branch, not an ancestral one. (3) On an autosomal level British and Irish DNA clusters closer to northern European than it does to southern. Out of these three points, points one and two are the most important. The evidence left Sykes behind a long time ago. Most have adapted there views to the evidence (or are in the process of doing so). I expect he'll catch up too.

Chukchi
10-30-2014, 09:39 AM
Thanks David, that's great, I'll look into all this. As an aside, do you know why the Welsh and Irish look so very dark and Iberian given the latest findings?

Chukchi
10-30-2014, 09:41 AM
DNA tribes is a joke.

Their results match two other tests including FTDNA, so I have no reason to think there is anything out of the ordinary in their results in this instance.

AJL
10-30-2014, 02:17 PM
do you know why the Welsh and Irish look so very dark and Iberian given the latest findings?

That's probably how Celts always looked: those are the areas of Britain and Ireland with the least Germanic influence (Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norse, etc.).

vettor
10-30-2014, 05:35 PM
I suspect you're trying to justify the unjustifiable. It's generally thought the Celtic homeland is somewhere in Central Europe, not Iberia.

I agree , I have never read that the ancient iberians where celtic, only the celtiiberians where
....as per one below of many similar maps on the net

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtic_Expansion.svg

David Mc
10-31-2014, 10:13 PM
Hi Chukchi,

Sorry-- lost track of this thread for a bit. I'm not sure how to answer the question as I don't actually agree with the basic premise. The Irish and Welsh aren't particularly dark or Iberian looking. There are dark haired Irish and Welsh, to be sure, but the Irish, at least, tend to be fair skinned and light-eyed.


Thanks David, that's great, I'll look into all this. As an aside, do you know why the Welsh and Irish look so very dark and Iberian given the latest findings?

Chukchi
10-31-2014, 11:15 PM
You know some different Irish to me then! Certainly there is a discernable difference in Wales between Welsh speakers who have been here for generations, and those who moved here over the last few generations for work. But what do I know, I only live here...

David Mc
11-01-2014, 01:32 AM
Hi Chukchi. I guess I do know some different Irish than you. Again, dark hair is common-- the norm, really, but the vast majority of Irish have very fair skin and light eyes (mostly blue). One of my uncles and cousins have duskier complexions than most, but they are the exception, not the rule. I spent a year in Portugal in the early '90's, and while not all are dark, they are as a rule darker in eye, hair, and skin color than the Irish... and I still want to say the Welsh, although some Welsh might be similar in colouring to some of the Portuguese.

If you want to look at some earlier discussions of pigmentation and populations, this one might be interesting for you:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2182-Blue-Eyes-Originated-10-000-Years-Ago-in-the-Black-Sea-Region&highlight=beddoe

Hope that helps.

MikeWhalen
11-01-2014, 03:56 AM
I thought a study showed that the Irish were literally the 'whitest' pigmentation of all the nationalities, with the Scandinavians a close second...or was it the other way around?
...in any case, all the Irish descendants that I know are very light colored skin wise and we burn easily in the sun

M

David Mc
11-01-2014, 04:36 AM
Same, Mike. I've got a slightly more golden tone to my skin, but it comes from my mother's (English) side.