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GoldenHind
11-01-2014, 10:30 PM
Someone who recently joined the R1b-P312 and Subclades Project has been assigned a terminal SNP of L247 by FTDNA as a result of his Big Y test. FTDNA places L247 beneath L165: DF27>Z196>L176.2>L165>L247. However in checking his Big Y results, they show him as testing negative for Z195 (which I believe is phylogenetically equivalent to Z196) and L165. Both those negatives are assigned a high confidence level. DF27 isn't tested in the Big Y, and no result is shown for L176.2. Despite the negative results, his haplotree page lists Z195 and L165 as presumed positive!

ISOGG shows R247.2 as an R1b SNP under investigation. I don't know why FTDNA places it below L165, but this sample appears to establish that is incorrect.

Can any DF27 experts shed any light on this?

razyn
11-01-2014, 11:03 PM
The Big Y results one can see are more reliable than the mysteries of the FTDNA Haplotree's invisible mind, such as it is.

ISOGG Notes tell me L247 is below DF41, and that's in the L21 haplogroup, not the DF27 one. If he's Z195-, he's L165- too; and I wouldn't lose much sleep over where the FTDNA Haplotree parks him. Just don't click on any of those blue buttons, to order the next test to prove this malarkey.

VinceT
11-02-2014, 04:29 AM
FTDNA's haplotree is a piece of ####. It is nothing more than a severely misinformed Y-SNP order-entry system.

Ignore it! Refer to more knowledgeable and better informed resources such as the ISOGG tree and the various haplogroup project admins who give a darn about accuracy.

GoldenHind
11-02-2014, 09:46 PM
The Big Y results one can see are more reliable than the mysteries of the FTDNA Haplotree's invisible mind, such as it is.

ISOGG Notes tell me L247 is below DF41, and that's in the L21 haplogroup, not the DF27 one. If he's Z195-, he's L165- too; and I wouldn't lose much sleep over where the FTDNA Haplotree parks him. Just don't click on any of those blue buttons, to order the next test to prove this malarkey.

The best I can determine, L247 doesn't appear to be under L21 either, unless it appears in more than one R1b subclade. The Big Y results for the L247+ person in question show he also tested negative for L21, with high confidence.

I am planning on recommending he test for DF27. His Big Y test only turned up L247 below P312, and his haplotree page shows he is presumed positive for two SNPs he tested negative for. It looks to me that either his Big Y results are inaccurate, or he is DF27+ Z195/6-.

I would be the last person to deny that FTDNA's new tree is riddled with errors- omissions as well as incorrect placements, However I feel that unless we point out these errors to them as we find them, their tree is unlikely to improve anytime soon.

rms2
11-02-2014, 11:11 PM
I am DF41+ and tested for L247 back in February of 2013 because it was thought to be under DF41. I am L247-, and I don't see anyone at the DF41 Project who is L247+, although five of us have tested for it.

Stephen Parrish
11-05-2014, 05:58 PM
Someone who recently joined the R1b-P312 and Subclades Project has been assigned a terminal SNP of L247 by FTDNA as a result of his Big Y test. FTDNA places L247 beneath L165: DF27>Z196>L176.2>L165>L247. However in checking his Big Y results, they show him as testing negative for Z195 (which I believe is phylogenetically equivalent to Z196) and L165. Both those negatives are assigned a high confidence level. DF27 isn't tested in the Big Y, and no result is shown for L176.2. Despite the negative results, his haplotree page lists Z195 and L165 as presumed positive!

ISOGG shows R247.2 as an R1b SNP under investigation. I don't know why FTDNA places it below L165, but this sample appears to establish that is incorrect.

Can any DF27 experts shed any light on this?

You are correct: Z195 (SNP) and Z196 (indel) are phylogenetically equivalent.

When I have time, I will contact Alasdair Macdonald to ask him whether he has encountered any L247+ members of the L165+ project and I can look for L247+ members of the DF27+ project on its SNP page. We will probably find that L247 is not downstream from L165.

Stephen