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View Full Version : L2 FGC22501+ FGC22538+ WHEATON finally breaks the L2* barrier



Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 03:52 PM
Hi all,

Just wanted to again thank Rich Rocca and Hal Eaton for their help. And a big :cheer2: for Full genomes Corporation. It seems the WHEATON cluster shares two New SNPS one with a 1000 genomes anonymous from Mexico and a Big Y DOOTZ from Romania. Now who would have guessed they might be on opposite ends of the mainland from our SW England/Wales WHEATONS.

I have computed the GD and the DOOTZ is indeed our closest STR match to date
46/67 (-21).


Anyone willing to venture some guesses as to time frame or migration possibilities?
Anything welcome.:)
Kelly

Alessio B. Bedini
11-02-2014, 04:18 PM
Kelly, congratulations!
Regarding your links with DOOTZ family , however, is difficult to understand.
You could derive both from the Anglo-Saxon, but the relationship may be much older.

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 04:28 PM
Thanks Alessio.

I wonder if it is some Roman soldiers moving about OR very early after the first L2 and with the Bell Beakers moved in opposite directions..... Also could point to some maritime trading....
Kelly

Alessio B. Bedini
11-02-2014, 04:39 PM
The path of our ancestors leaves traces behind it.
If you find other FGC22501+ FGC22538+ in France and Bretagne then your ancestors may have come in prehistoric times or even Romans times.
However, if there is FGC22501+ FGC22538+ only in Germany and Central Europe then it means that your ancestors came to Britain with the Saxons.
You have to find someone else ..

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2014, 04:43 PM
Congratulations Kelly.

Do you know the 1,000 Genomes ID of the Mexican? Is it located in the YFull tree at http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b/ ?

I think we still need a lot more ancient DNA and for living people to get NGS testing for a good guess on a time frame or migration possibility.

On a side note today is the first time that I paid attention to the countries of the those listed on that page and there are more Latin Americans (MXL, PEL, PUR, CLM) and Spaniards (IBS) than I had expected to see.

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 04:44 PM
Thanks Alessio. Very helpful. Isn't it always we need to find more! :lol:

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 04:51 PM
ArmandoR1b,
Yes his ID is NA19679 and yes he is on that tree.
On Rich's tree;2853
Kelly

haleaton
11-02-2014, 05:00 PM
ArmandoR1b,
Yes his ID is NA19679 and yes he is on that tree.
On Rich's tree;2853
Kelly

NA19679 is actually Mexican American from Los Angeles, CA. They also collected samples from his wife and daughter.

"At least three out of four grandparents were born in Mexico; sample collected from an individual living in the Los Angeles, California metropolitan area"

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 05:45 PM
NA19679 is actually Mexican American from Los Angeles, CA. They also collected samples from his wife and daughter.

"At least three out of four grandparents were born in Mexico; sample collected from an individual living in the Los Angeles, California metropolitan area"

So what are the chances the other grandparent was not at all Mexican American??? Your guess is as good as mine! Thanks for the info.

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2014, 07:09 PM
So what are the chances the other grandparent was not at all Mexican American??? Your guess is as good as mine! Thanks for the info.

There is more of a chance of the paternal line being Hispanic than not being Hispanic based on marriage patterns that I have seen.

There are three distinct Mexican lineages that are U152 that haven't been tested for L2 at http://garyfelix.tripod.com/index63.htm There is a fourth one that doesn't show to have an SNP next to U152 but is L2- in the U152 project. There are some L2+ in the U152 project that have a most distant ancestor from Spain. I have no idea if the STR markers are way off or not though. However, in some cases STR markers can be misleading and modals are based on what is known and they can change with new results.

There is a Peruvian (PEL) in the same group as the Mexican NA19679 at http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b1*/

The Peruvian doesn't seem to be FGC22501+ FGC22538+ based on what you have told us but you guys do have a common ancestor and the Peruvian is likely from an Hispanic paternal line. So a group of people that are L2+ made it into Spain and I think there are other Hispanic FGC22501+ FGC22538+ yet to be found.

How it got into Spain and when will be the next question and really what you want to know. Has Rich or Hal provided a TMRCA based on the FGC results?

I hope the Deep Clade panel test is released soon so more L2+ people can be found and maybe someday get tested for FGC22501+ FGC22538+, and other newly found SNPs, once they are added to FTDNA or yseq.net

haleaton
11-02-2014, 07:31 PM
So what are the chances the other grandparent was not at all Mexican American??? Your guess is as good as mine! Thanks for the info.

Actually this was the naming guidance from 1K Genomes specific project.

https://catalog.coriell.org/1/NHGRI/Collections/HapMap-Collections/Mexican-Ancestry-in-Los-Angeles-CA-USA-MXL

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 07:55 PM
There is more of a chance of the paternal line being Hispanic than not being Hispanic based on marriage patterns that I have seen.

There are three distinct Mexican lineages that are U152 that haven't been tested for L2 at http://garyfelix.tripod.com/index63.htm There is a fourth one that doesn't show to have an SNP next to U152 but is L2- in the U152 project. There are some L2+ in the U152 project that have a most distant ancestor from Spain. I have no idea if the STR markers are way off or not though. However, in some cases STR markers can be misleading and modals are based on what is known and they can change with new results.



There is a Peruvian (PEL) in the same group as the Mexican NA19679 at http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2b1*/

The Peruvian doesn't seem to be FGC22501+ FGC22538+ based on what you have told us but you guys do have a common ancestor and the Peruvian is likely from an Hispanic paternal line. So a group of people that are L2+ made it into Spain and I think there are other Hispanic FGC22501+ FGC22538+ yet to be found.

How it got into Spain and when will be the next question and really what you want to know. Has Rich or Hal provided a TMRCA based on the FGC results?

I hope the Deep Clade panel test is released soon so more L2+ people can be found and maybe someday get tested for FGC22501+ FGC22538+, and other newly found SNPs, once they are added to FTDNA or yseq.net

Yes the Peruvian HG01941 is negative for both these SNPS. However I find it all rather intriguing---looking at the map from Jean Manco's Ancestral Journey's
2854
I can't help but note the strong Iberian maritime connection and the two little Hints of Beaker folks in SW Wales and the stretch of the Bristol Channel where our WHEATON Group is none to be from. The Romanian result may be from more recent migration down the Danube River....

Need more tests!!!;)

mafe
11-02-2014, 08:38 PM
So what are the chances the other grandparent was not at all Mexican American??? Your guess is as good as mine! Thanks for the info.

Kelly, I have been pondering about this aswell. I share two SNPs downstream of U152 with Mex-American sample NA19720.

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 09:13 PM
Kelly, I have been pondering about this as well. I share two SNPs downstream of U152 with Mex-American sample NA19720.

Very intriguing!

There are several things I am noting not only in my L2 group but also in a R-M222>DF97+ relative and well mentioned in Jean's book. That is that many of these folks were sea-faring people and traveled broadly which tends to run contrary to our modern mind set about early peoples. The genes flowed in both directions so until enough data is available we are clutching at straws...However since L2 has no where near the representation in the British Isles that say L21 or M222 has it is a bit tricky. And what is there is widely dispersed.

What I have researched regarding the likely origins of my Wheaton cluster of which we have 17 members and 1 additional result. We have one each for the following surnames HOWELL, HANCOCK, MALLANEBY, RAINES, ELLISON.
The rest are all WHEATON and most likely descended from a known common ancestor. They lived in the area in Wales and England that is transected by the Bristol Channel but as their shores were scattered with seaports for thousands of years gene flow back and forth makes perfect sense. Then with industrialization men went where the jobs were so a trek from So. Wales to the Northern most part of England was not a big move. I think we similarly need to view theses ancient people's in the same light. Trade, adventure, and new opportunities are likely a genetic component of a survival.

I tend to think---but I may be way off---that these small pockets were more isolated and perhaps less prolific and therefore harder to find and track. They tend to be adjacent the sea so if I was a betting the farm I would say the FGC22501+ FGC22538+ likely traveled by sea or river to where it is found. And since that wanderlust can run in families.....there is a possible sense to it.....

Kwheaton
11-02-2014, 09:14 PM
Mafe,
PS
There is som slight indication that the WHEATONs may have been tied to early Belgium lace/cloth trading.....

mafe
11-03-2014, 05:13 PM
I wouldn't be surprised at all if there is a higher percentage of U152+ near the banks of the Rhine, Moselle and Meuse.

My paternal ancestors come from a town on banks of the river Meuse. There is another U152+ from this area and although his haplotype isn't very close to mine, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be positive for A274 and A275 aswell. My 5 matches all have English surnames, but there are a few clues that some of them might be of Dutch descent.

Because of the countless "foreign" influences on the population of the southern Netherlands it is very difficult to say where my more ancient ancestors might have come from

R.Rocca
11-03-2014, 08:34 PM
Yes the Peruvian HG01941 is negative for both these SNPS. However I find it all rather intriguing---looking at the map from Jean Manco's Ancestral Journey's
2854
I can't help but note the strong Iberian maritime connection and the two little Hints of Beaker folks in SW Wales and the stretch of the Bristol Channel where our WHEATON Group is none to be from. The Romanian result may be from more recent migration down the Danube River....

Need more tests!!!;)

The Dootz individual's paternal side and maternal side have MDKA with German last names, so they may be ethnic Germans. I reached out to him to find out more and hopefully he will accept the invitation to follow up directly with you.

R.Rocca
11-04-2014, 01:29 PM
The Dootz individual's paternal side and maternal side have MDKA with German last names, so they may be ethnic Germans. I reached out to him to find out more and hopefully he will accept the invitation to follow up directly with you.

@kwheaton, Mr. Dootz has confirmed that his ancestors where Transylvanian Saxons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

He is very interested in corresponding with you and I will forward you his contact information. Again, congratulations...this is a very good lead to follow!

R.Rocca
11-04-2014, 09:37 PM
@kwheaton, more good news for you...for the 1KG individual, there are STR results:

http://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/ftp/technical/working/20140107_chrY_str_haplotypes/YSTRs_PowerPLexY23_1000Y_QA_20130107.txt

The Wheaton/Hancock/Mallenby cluster, Dootz and NA19679 all share the following off-modal STR value and it may help identify potential (but not definite) FGC22501+ results:
DYS438 = 13

The Wheaton/Hancock/Mallenby cluster and Dootz share the following off-modal STR values and may help identify potential (but not definite) FGC22538+ results:
DYS385a = 12
DYS456 = 15
CDY = 35-36
DYS19 = 15 or 16 (modal = 14)
DYS549 = 12

Kwheaton
11-04-2014, 09:50 PM
@kwheaton, Mr. Dootz has confirmed that his ancestors where Transylvanian Saxons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

He is very interested in corresponding with you and I will forward you his contact information. Again, congratulations...this is a very good lead to follow!

Yes Rich this is an awesome connection. I will keep you and others posted on what develops. We have exchanged an email each. :-) It does peek my curiosity about our Mallenby match as this may be in Belgium---an here's the really strange coincidence his grandfather died in 1917 in Belgium during WWI----perhaps that 1000 genomes participant's ancestry also tracks back to the same area.....

Alessio wrote,

"However, if there is FGC22501+ FGC22538+ only in Germany and Central Europe then it means that your ancestors came to Britain with the Saxons."

It is looking like that is one possibility or even a later migration.....the plot thickens.

Rich,
So you have an approximate date to the MRCA for WHEATON and DOOOTZ?
Is it likely that anyone else might be a candidate for SNP testing these new SNPs?

MitchellSince1893
11-05-2014, 01:50 AM
U152>L2 Saxons? Interesting. U152 and U106 reach their peaks in the Anglo-Saxon areas i.e. Southern and Eastern Britain.

R.Rocca
11-05-2014, 02:08 AM
Yes Rich this is an awesome connection. I will keep you and others posted on what develops. We have exchanged an email each. :-) It does peek my curiosity about our Mallenby match as this may be in Belgium---an here's the really strange coincidence his grandfather died in 1917 in Belgium during WWI----perhaps that 1000 genomes participant's ancestry also tracks back to the same area.....

Alessio wrote,

"However, if there is FGC22501+ FGC22538+ only in Germany and Central Europe then it means that your ancestors came to Britain with the Saxons."

It is looking like that is one possibility or even a later migration.....the plot thickens.

Rich,
So you have an approximate date to the MRCA for WHEATON and DOOOTZ?
Is it likely that anyone else might be a candidate for SNP testing these new SNPs?

Yes, I think you missed my post here.. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3396-L2-FGC22501-FGC22538-WHEATON-finally-breaks-the-L2*-barrier&p=57514&viewfull=1#post57514

Kwheaton
11-05-2014, 02:11 AM
U152>L2 Saxons? Interesting. U152 and U106 reach their peaks in the Anglo-Saxon areas i.e. Southern and Eastern Britain.

With each wave of conquerers there is an integration of the earlier culture with new one. If you don't have out and out slaughter of all amles someof the earlier populations DNA will survive. So this could be the case here where L2 is there and carried cukturally forward with the Saxons but still reprsents the Y-line of the earlier occupiers of the territory. I hae recntly been readinging heavily abiut the various groups in Scotland. Same thing there. The earliest Picts or Brtons then the Vikings and Romans and Saxons and still all signals remain.

Kwheaton
11-06-2014, 02:18 AM
@kwheaton, more good news for you...for the 1KG individual, there are STR results:

http://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/ftp/technical/working/20140107_chrY_str_haplotypes/YSTRs_PowerPLexY23_1000Y_QA_20130107.txt

The Wheaton/Hancock/Mallenby cluster, Dootz and NA19679 all share the following off-modal STR value and it may help identify potential (but not definite) FGC22501+ results:
DYS438 = 13

The Wheaton/Hancock/Mallenby cluster and Dootz share the following off-modal STR values and may help identify potential (but not definite) FGC22538+ results:
DYS385a = 12
DYS456 = 15
CDY = 35-36
DYS19 = 15 or 16 (modal = 14)
DYS549 = 12

Rich I did miss this and I will look for potential candidates in the various projects that might have them. Thanks you. I have two potential group memebers who are considering Y Prime so that would further define the downstream private vs public SNPS. Also considering a panel from Y SEQ.
Kelly

dp
11-06-2014, 05:33 PM
... U106 reach their peaks in the Anglo-Saxon areas i.e. Southern and Eastern Britain.
compared to where? U106 is greatest from Germany eastward. P312 Germany westward.
dp :-)
PS: at least that's what the scientists reported in 2012 I think.

MitchellSince1893
11-06-2014, 06:18 PM
compared to where? U106 is greatest from Germany eastward. P312 Germany westward.
dp :-)
PS: at least that's what the scientists reported in 2012 I think.
Compared to the rest of the UK.

Kwheaton
02-22-2015, 12:59 PM
Just an update.

We have a new member of the FGC22538 group and thank you Rich for alerting me. So that makes 4! This one is surnamed KIDD and from very early colonial VA. They have done testing in the UK and no matches yet. This one is a greater GD from us than DOOTZ. And although DOOTZ traces back to the 1200's likely in Saxony the current highest concentrations in Germany of the surname DOOTZ are in Bavaria. Like L2 its parent it looks that FGC22538 will be far flung and likely quite early subclade of L2.