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R.Rocca
11-05-2014, 09:38 PM
I'm trying to consolidate some thoughts on recent Ancient DNA findings and what they potentially mean for R1b. Here are some things that stand out in my opinion:

1. Some (including myself) have left open the possibility that R1b was already present in the cultures immediately proceeding Bell Beaker in Central and Western Europe. Here's another look at some ancient DNA from some of those cultures, none of which belong to R1b:


3350-3100 BC Ötztal Alps (Otzi), Y-haplogroup: G2a1b2
3000 BC Treilles, Y-haplogroups: G2a and I2a1
2750-2725 BC Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte, Y-haplogroup: I2a1

These look like typical Early and Middle Neolithic Y-haplogroups of Europe, so that is not a surprise. However, the automsomal DNA makeup of the following individual really puts at least some doubt into the existence of R1b prior to around 2700 BC in Central Europe:


2900-2700 BC Late Baden Culture, Hungary, Apc-Berekalja I

Autosomally, this person is almost identical to any other Central European Neolithic individual, even those that are thousands of years older. Just like Otzi, this Copper Age individual only plots with modern Sardinians. If the Baden Culture was indeed "Kurganized" at some point, it didn't have any genetic impact on this individual's autosomal DNA in relation to her ancestors.

2. Could it be that some Late Neolithic Balkan cultures like Baden were "Kurganized" by a first wave of westernmost people of the collapsed Cucuteni-Tripolye culture who themselves were Kurganized only a few generations earlier? We know that the earliest Corded Ware Kurgans from Poland (2800 BC) so far have not carried R1a nor R1b. The lack of R1a was interesting due to some similar anthropological differences between early and late Corded Ware skulls:


"Since Yamna and Catacomb series resemble the later German Corded Ware series more than the earlier series, this raises the possibility that Kurgan or Kurgan-influenced groups entered central Europe after the Corded Ware complex had begun. But, as Menk admits, this would be hard to prove (1980:389)."
John V. Day (2001). Indo-European Origins: The Anthropological Evidence. The Institute for the Study of Man, p.207

Could the difference between the early Bell Bell Beaker skulls and the later Bell Beaker skulls also represent a difference between non-R1b Neolithic Europeans and Bronze Age R1b people from the deeper Steppe?

3. The lack of Eastern Mediterranean autosomal DNA in any of the relatively late Hinxton Iron Age samples, including the two R1b males, is the final nail in the coffin of Anatole Klyosov's wandering R1b tribe. He posited that an R1b lead migration founded the Sumerian Culture then made their way into the Eastern Mediterranean where they hopped along the African coast. Finally, they reached Iberia, where they repopulated most of Western Europe. I think we can safely put that one to rest.

Jean M
11-05-2014, 09:53 PM
2. Could it be that some Late Neolithic Balkan cultures like Baden were "Kurganized" by a first wave of westernmost people of the collapsed Cucuteni-Tripolye culture who themselves were Kurganized only a few generations earlier? We know that the earliest Corded Ware Kurgans from Poland (2800 BC) so far have not carried R1a nor R1b. The lack of R1a was interesting due to some similar anthropological differences between early and late Corded Ware skulls.

Cucuteni-Tripolye fed technology into the TRB for some considerable time before CW, but it is hard to say whether migration was involved. The two CW youths who were not R1a had signs of childhood malnutrition, suggesting that they were actually of TRB origin. (That culture was showing signs of pressure before CW.)

I have little doubt that we will find a complex picture in the Copper Age, rather than some simple disjunct in which one day we have a population of G2a Sardinian-like people and the next they have been totally replaced by R1a and R1b.


Could the difference between the early Bell Bell Beaker skulls and the later Bell Beaker skulls also represent a difference between non-R1b Neolithic Europeans and Bronze Age R1b people from the deeper Steppe?

As I vaguely recall, one of the users of World Families Form finally got to grips with the origin of the broad skulls and it was somewhere in the Carpathian Basin, which makes total sense whether cultural or genetic. That skull type goes with the BB that radiated from Csepel Island.

Il Papŕ
11-05-2014, 10:30 PM
Cucuteni-Tripolye fed technology into the TRB for some considerable time before CW, but it is hard to say whether migration was involved. The two CW youths who were not R1a had signs of childhood malnutrition, suggesting that they were actually of TRB origin. (That culture was showing signs of pressure before CW.)

I have little doubt that we will find a complex picture in the Copper Age, rather than some simple disjunct in which one day we have a population of G2a Sardinian-like people and the next they have been totally replaced by R1a and R1b.



As I vaguely recall, one of the users of World Families Form finally got to grips with the origin of the broad skulls and it was somewhere in the Carpathian Basin, which makes total sense whether cultural or genetic. That skull type goes with the BB that radiated from Csepel Island.
Among the "Sardinian-Like people" they are more C6 and I2a combined than G2a ,saying they were mainly G2a is not true anymore.

R.Rocca
11-06-2014, 01:57 PM
Cucuteni-Tripolye fed technology into the TRB for some considerable time before CW, but it is hard to say whether migration was involved. The two CW youths who were not R1a had signs of childhood malnutrition, suggesting that they were actually of TRB origin. (That culture was showing signs of pressure before CW.)

I have little doubt that we will find a complex picture in the Copper Age, rather than some simple disjunct in which one day we have a population of G2a Sardinian-like people and the next they have been totally replaced by R1a and R1b.



As I vaguely recall, one of the users of World Families Form finally got to grips with the origin of the broad skulls and it was somewhere in the Carpathian Basin, which makes total sense whether cultural or genetic. That skull type goes with the BB that radiated from Csepel Island.

I must have missed something...who suggest that the two non-CW individuals were of TRB origin?

Jean M
11-06-2014, 08:39 PM
I must have missed something...who suggest that the two non-CW individuals were of TRB origin?

Me. Not that I want to snatch credit from anyone. I think other people were musing along the lines that these were probably not part of the incoming group in the CW mixture. Bear in mind that the date was very early CW. Mind you I vaguely recall that the two youths had injuries consistent with violent death, so they might have been raiders rather than residents.

R.Rocca
11-06-2014, 09:11 PM
Me. Not that I want to snatch credit from anyone. I think other people were musing along the lines that these were probably not part of the incoming group in the CW mixture. Bear in mind that the date was very early CW. Mind you I vaguely recall that the two youths had injuries consistent with violent death, so they might have been raiders rather than residents.

Anything is possible, but even pastoralists are prone to lean years. Either way, my point is that there is a potential that some groups west of Yamnaya were already learning to live a more kurganist/pastoralist type of lifestyle and may have been locals turned Corded Ware. This may have been followed by the first movements of people from the westernmost Yamnaya zone, which may have been a WHG (I2a) and C-T (G2) mix and still resembled Central European Neolithics. This may help explain the autosomal makeup of the Baden individual for example. R1a and R1b may have been the easternmost or northernmost Yamanya groups and may have entered Central Europe in one of the later waves.

Like we've always said...the scenarios will likely be much more complex than one could ever have expected.

rms2
11-23-2014, 01:34 PM
Me. Not that I want to snatch credit from anyone. I think other people were musing along the lines that these were probably not part of the incoming group in the CW mixture. Bear in mind that the date was very early CW. Mind you I vaguely recall that the two youths had injuries consistent with violent death, so they might have been raiders rather than residents.

Didn't the CW individuals at Eulau die violent deaths?

Jean M
11-23-2014, 02:18 PM
Didn't the CW individuals at Eulau die violent deaths?

That's right. Looks in that case like the victims of a raid i.e. women and children plus an older male (aged 40-60), buried together, with relationships between them. The fighting age men of the group were presumably away at the time and returned to find and bury the bodies, or were simply not able to fend off the attackers well enough to prevent the slaughter.

[Added] I have checked Gworys 2013. The two youths in a Corded Ware tumulus at Jagodno, Wroclaw were not buried simultaneously. One was buried centrally under a tumulus. The other was a secondary burial. So we can dump my raiders thought.