PDA

View Full Version : Genes mirror geography in Europe - Slovakia



Mike McG
11-09-2014, 12:05 AM
Partial quote:

Edit: See Genes mirror geography in Europe

2845

2846

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/full/nature07331.html#close

This partial quote is copied from a post by Heber on the POBI thread, but I decided to start a new post so as not to take that thread off topic. I find the above PCA to be very much in line with the title of the article except one point really jumped out at me. SK which I believe is Slovakia appears to cluster with Italians, Greeks, Cyprus and Turks rather than Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians, Austrians and Hungarians as I would have perhaps expected. I did not purchase the article so I don't know if this point is covered there, but does anyone know or have an opinion on whether this positioning of SK is just an anomaly of the data or valid based on historical facts?

Mike McG

Generalissimo
11-09-2014, 12:28 AM
Slovaks are generally almost indistinguishable from most Czechs, southern Poles, and many Hungarians.

The single Slovakian individual in this study is probably either significantly Jewish or Roma.

Agamemnon
11-09-2014, 12:49 AM
Slovaks are generally almost indistinguishable from most Czechs, southern Poles, and many Hungarians.

The single Slovakian individual in this study is probably either significantly Jewish or Roma.

Jewish is far more likely IMHO, this Slovakian individual plots right where one would expect the Jewish cluster to show up.

Baltimore1937
11-09-2014, 01:51 AM
In my case, Ancestry gives me 1% Eastern Europe, 1% Caucasus, and "<1%" South Asian (Roma?). I strongly suspect those findings are from my Austrian maternal grandfather.

J1 DYS388=13
11-09-2014, 05:52 AM
That single case attracted attention when the paper was first published. No other study has connected Slovaks with the Mediterranean in that way.

Although no information about that case is available, it is not out of the question that he or she was partly of Italian descent.

Edit: My own ancestry is half Slovak. My 23andMe Ancestry Composition gives me 0.0% Southern European.

Táltos
11-09-2014, 06:14 PM
Well this is an interesting thread. However isn't the paper in the first post kind of old from 2008? Anyway I find it interesting as my father's mother's parents are from eastern Slovakia. I grew up being told what I thought was that she was "Russian", come to find out she meant "Rusyn". I'm still trying to figure out what the heck that means. (To be Rusyn that is.) :)

Anyway, now to my point. At 23andme I have 2.8% Balkan that I inherited from my father in split view. My X chromosomes are almost entirely painted Balkan, except for a segment that is designated as Northern European. I see I share that with my Mom. My daughter did not inherit any of her X chromosomes from my Mom. Her X from me is therefore from my father's mother, and is painted all Balkan.

J1 DYS388=13
11-09-2014, 06:39 PM
What it means to be Rusyn (my ancestry is too, in part) is a subject which can generate more heat than light. So I will dodge that issue and just note that some people of the northern Carpathians other than Rusyns are known to be the descendants of c.16th century migrants from the southern Carpathians. That could be where your Balkan segments come from.

Táltos
11-09-2014, 07:10 PM
What it means to be Rusyn (my ancestry is too, in part) is a subject which can generate more heat than light. So I will dodge that issue and just note that some people of the northern Carpathians other than Rusyns are known to be the descendants of c.16th century migrants from the southern Carpathians. That could be where your Balkan segments come from.
Thanks, about the 16th century migrants from the Southern Carpathians. I cannot get back that far in this line, only that both villages in eastern Slovakia where they are from have "Rusyns", and that my family practiced the Greek Catholic rite. Names in this line are Latsko, Hreha, and Kuzsma.

Yes, it does seem to create heated discussion, and why it confuses me as there isn't much of a clear cut answer. All I know is they seem to be a people without a country.

thetick
11-09-2014, 08:12 PM
Thanks, about the 16th century migrants from the Southern Carpathians. I cannot get back that far in this line, only that both villages in eastern Slovakia where they are from have "Rusyns", and that my family practiced the Greek Catholic rite. Names in this line are Latsko, Hreha, and Kuzsma.

Yes, it does seem to create heated discussion, and why it confuses me as there isn't much of a clear cut answer. All I know is they seem to be a people without a country.

My mother's grandmother was Rusyn. They called themselves Polish (Lemkos). They would say thy spoken Ukrainian and they were all devout Roman Catholics in the US. In reality they were Rusyn, spoke Rusyn and were Greek Orthodox in Europe. Rusyns where I grew up preferred to identify as Polish.

What is a Rusyn?
http://www.slovakia.org/society-rusyn.htm

Polish Lemko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

Map of turn of century Rusyn areas.
http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/galicia3.gif

Táltos
11-09-2014, 09:21 PM
My mother's grandmother was Rusyn. They called themselves Polish (Lemkos). They would say thy spoken Ukrainian and they were all devout Roman Catholics in the US. In reality they were Rusyn, spoke Rusyn and were Greek Orthodox in Europe. Rusyns where I grew up preferred to identify as Polish.

What is a Rusyn?
http://www.slovakia.org/society-rusyn.htm

Polish Lemko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

Map of turn of century Rusyn areas.
http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/galicia3.gif
Hi tick, yes I remember you are part Lemko. :) Thanks for the links, I have seen them before, but good to see again. There is conflicting information in them though about origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

The ethnogenesis of the Lemkos is still being discussed by scholars. According to one theory, the Lemkos (and other Carpatho-Rusyns) are descendants of the White Croats. Some Polish scholars claim that they developed from a Vlach – Rusyn migration in the 14th and 15th centuries. There is also a view that they are refugees from Rus who moved to the Western side of the Carpathian Mountains in the 14th century to escape the Mongol invasion. Some scholars suggest that settlers from Rus' may have arrived earlier to the area traditionally inhabited by Lemkos. Analysis of population genetics shows statistical differences between Lemkos and other Slavic or European populations.[8]
I would like to know more about the haplogroups I and M that they reported in here.

An analysis of maternal lineages found that Lemkos have the highest frequency of Haplogroup I (mtDNA) found to that date. Haplogroup M* also reaches its regional peak among Lemkos.

J1 DYS388=13
11-09-2014, 09:39 PM
After you investigate those mtDNA types, you might also have a look at E-V13 and E-L542:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/carpatho-rusyn/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/e-v13/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/romania/default.aspx?section=yresults etc.

Green fairy
11-13-2014, 08:39 PM
I knew Rusyns from Uniontown PA who self identified as Polish. Most seemed to use Russian though, I think from the Russian Orthodox Church taking many under their wing.
Taltos, I need to check but I think my dads X is also Balkan from his mother, who was Rusyn. I think it is Vlach/Romanian ancestry in Rusyns. Just a guess though. Some Rusyn Lemkos seem to show more eastern euro on 23andme than others, I think some villages may have had more admixture than some.

Táltos
11-14-2014, 03:38 AM
I knew Rusyns from Uniontown PA who self identified as Polish. Most seemed to use Russian though, I think from the Russian Orthodox Church taking many under their wing.
Taltos, I need to check but I think my dads X is also Balkan from his mother, who was Rusyn. I think it is Vlach/Romanian ancestry in Rusyns. Just a guess though. Some Rusyn Lemkos seem to show more eastern euro on 23andme than others, I think some villages may have had more admixture than some.
You are right about the Russian Orthodox church taking them under their wing. My grandmother belonged to the Russian Orthodox church, and I am sure this helped to create more confusion for me. (Russian vs Rusyn) It was through this church though that I found the records for my great grandparents in eastern Slovakia, and that they had been listed as Greek Catholic.

BTW, I just double checked your father's X chromosome. And yes it is almost all Balkan, with two small spots on each end, and one tiny sliver to the right, listed as Southern European. B)

rms2
11-14-2014, 11:53 AM
You are right about the Russian Orthodox church taking them under their wing. My grandmother belonged to the Russian Orthodox church, and I am sure this helped to create more confusion for me. (Russian vs Rusyn) It was through this church though that I found the records for my great grandparents in eastern Slovakia, and that they had been listed as Greek Catholic.

BTW, I just double checked your father's X chromosome. And yes it is almost all Balkan, with two small spots on each end, and one tiny sliver to the right, listed as Southern European. B)

I became Orthodox through the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of Father Nicholas Wyborski, back when the Metropolitan Nicholas Smiško was the Metropolitan. Small world.

Green fairy
11-26-2014, 06:01 AM
You are right about the Russian Orthodox church taking them under their wing. My grandmother belonged to the Russian Orthodox church, and I am sure this helped to create more confusion for me. (Russian vs Rusyn) It was through this church though that I found the records for my great grandparents in eastern Slovakia, and that they had been listed as Greek Catholic.

BTW, I just double checked your father's X chromosome. And yes it is almost all Balkan, with two small spots on each end, and one tiny sliver to the right, listed as Southern European. B)

Same, we were Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic but I knew others that were Russian Orthodox. My grandmother made the distinction between plain Russians and little Russians in English, explaining the priest and his family were plain Russians and she could not understand them. I have a feeling little Russian, was not a traditional term they used but one they acquired, as they did not see themselves as Ukrainian. Possibly Russian influence before immigration or after in the US lead to the use.

Táltos
11-26-2014, 06:18 AM
Same, we were Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic but I knew others that were Russian Orthodox. My grandmother made the distinction between plain Russians and little Russians in English, explaining the priest and his family were plain Russians and she could not understand them. I have a feeling little Russian, was not a traditional term they used but one they acquired, as they did not see themselves as Ukrainian. Possibly Russian influence before immigration or after in the US lead to the use.
It's so confusing! Maybe we can just call ourselves "Fancy Russians". ;)

Green fairy
11-26-2014, 06:39 AM
It's so confusing! Maybe we can just call ourselves "Fancy Russians". ;)

B)

Yes, I am still not sure what the best term is I alternate with Rusyn or Lemko.:confused:

sneakyscout556
11-16-2015, 10:46 PM
perhaps you should begin with adressing the nation by it's correct adjective (Slovak, not Slovakian)
Slovaks are actually quite distinguishable from other central european nations, just according to the simple fact Slovaks possess the highest value of Gypsy DNA in whole Europe if I'm not mistaken, of course there's more aspects to it but you get my point.